You're listening to Burnt Toast. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith. Today my conversation is with the brilliant Savala Nolan. Savala is a writer, public speaker and professor at UC Berkeley. Her brand new book, Good Woman: A Reckoning is out now. Her first book, Don’t Let It Get You Down: Essays on Race, Gender and the Body, was shortlisted for the William Saroyan Prize and celebrated as a “standout collection” by the New York Times. Savala's writing has been featured in Vogue, Harper’s Magazine, the New York Times, NPR, TIME and more.I have a lot of conversations about bodies. I have a lot of conversations about gender. There is a lot that I thought I knew about race and bodies and gender in America. Reading Good Woman and talking to Savala blew my mind apart in ways that I'm still putting back together. This conversation is a must listen. This book is a must read.There was so much good stuff in this conversation, we are breaking it up into two episodes. Today in part one, we’re talking about bodies, race and gender. Part two will drop in two weeks, and that's when we're getting into sex, divorce and Savala’s classy and trashy butters. That conversation will be for paid subscribers only, so go to patreon.com/virginiasolesmith to join us. Membership starts at just $5 per month. You're not going to want to miss this one. One last thing! Trust me, you will want to read Good Woman after hearing this conversation. If you order it from my local independent bookstore, Split Rock Books, you can take 10% off if you have also ordered a copy of my book Fat Talk from them. Go to Split Rock Books and use the code "fat talk" at checkout. Here's Savala.If you enjoy this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work!Join Burnt Toast🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 235 TranscriptVirginia Why don't we just start by having you tell listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do?Savala  I'm a writer. I was thinking about this question quite a bit, actually, because my very first instinct is to say I'm a mom, which makes perfect sense. Motherhood is all consuming. But I thought I'll start with something that doesn't include my relationship with another human being, just in the interest of practicing my own wholeness. So, I'm a writer and a mom and a lawyer. I direct the social justice program at UC Berkeley's Law School, which is really a privilege and gives me a lot of hope, because I get to see hundreds of law students every day who want to change the world and make it better. I'm also a former dieter. Like a hardcore, former dieter, which is what initially brought me into your world and your work. I was put on my first diet when I was two or three, and rode those waves up and down until I was maybe 36 or 37, so I've got a few decades under my belt. I include that in my biography because that experience of going on and off diets for so long, and of being almost pre-verbal when I was indoctrinated into that world of dieting, informs a lot of what I do, including as a mom, including as a lawyer, including as a writer. Body liberation, gender and race, they fascinate me endlessly, how they play together and kind of co-create each other. Most of what I write about, and definitely what I write about in Good Woman, stems from that experience of dieting, and then breaking free from dieting in my thirties.Virginia  That is the best intro I think anyone's ever given themselves on the podcast. SavalaOh, stop. VirginiaNo, really. I love that you are like, 'Let me own this part of my story. This is the origin point. And then now let's get into the conversation.' That's fantastic. We are here to talk about your exquisite new book Good Woman: A Reckoning. It is a collection of 12 essays about what it means to be a woman. It's this incredible blend of memoir, reporting and history. I would love you to read us the first paragraph, just to set the stage for everything we're going to talk about.SavalaI'll just take a quick second to set it up a little bit.I'm trying to take a critical and very skeptical eye to all the ways that women and girls are socialized to be good. Almost from birth, right? In our particular culture, good means agreeable, quiet, serving of others, all the things that probably would pop into any woman's head when she hears the idea of a "good woman" or a "good girl." I'm trying to unpack and destroy some of that socialization in my own life, and think about what lies beyond it. To kick the book off, there's this very short essay that's sort of a manifesto. I think of it as a huge bell that rings to open the book. Here's the first paragraph.I refuse to be good. This is a matter of survival, not inclination or mood. I refuse to be easy and I refuse others preferences. I refuse to be amicable and I refuse to appease. I refuse to go along and I refuse to agree. I refuse to do what I was trained to do. Instead, I choose whatever lies beyond my social conditioning, even if I'm still looking for it, still spurring it into being. This is work of the mind, cerebral and tough. This is work of new language, new concepts, new intonations and my thinking must expand to fit the scale of all existence. It is also body work, work that is nailed to my flesh. It is gestating of new bones, an anointing of muscle and fat. It is passing through the stomatous black opening of my own cervix to the bright field, waiting on the other side in the wilderness. It is a lot to take on. But I welcome the challenge and the mystery and the darkness. It was in darkness that the universe was made. It is in darkness that each day is made new.Virginia  Thank you. That was incredible. Really, it was.SavalaThank you. Virginia  I loved how you opened the book because it encapsulates so many of the themes that you then go deeper in in every chapter. One of the biggest themes of refusal in the book is around the body. You write about how Black women's bodies in particular are constrained, controlled and made not their own. I really, really want people to read this because we don't have time to talk about all the history you go through and it's so well done. You trace this narrative from Sarah Baartman and Sally Hemings all the way to Nicki Minaj, connecting so many dots. It's really powerful. What has and what hasn't changed when it comes to how Blackness and fatness are policed for women?Savala  I love this question. We could probably write a doctoral thesis or dissertation on this question alone. So I'll just sort of share what comes to mind, a sort of smorgasbord of thoughts that come to mind when you ask this question. The first thing is, there's an overlap when we talk about Blackness and fatness in this culture. The very first point to make is that everything here is cultural. Not all cultures treat women's bodies, Blackness and fatness the way we do. That's the page on which everything else is written. It's interesting to me that when we talk about Blackness and fatness, the stereotypes overlap, right? Both fat people and Black people are viewed in this culture as out of control, lazy, kind of greedy, having a hyper appetite. Either being hyper-sexualized or de-sexualized. You either have the kind of va-va-voom, or the 'friend, never the leading lady' when it comes to fatness. With Blackness, it's the same thing. You either have the video vixen - this kind of hyper-sexual Black woman in a music video - or the mammy.It's interesting to me that the stereotypes overlap so much, and maybe the most powerful way they overlap is that they're both undesirable. They're both things in our culture that you should try to get away from if you can. You should try not to be too Black or too fat in our culture. So to me, as a woman who's fat and Black, it's kind of a one-two punch. They work together. The stereotypes overlapping tells you there's some relationship in our culture between these two things. And as you say, it goes way, way, way, way back in this country. It goes to chattel slavery, where Blackness and fatness started to be policed together and associated together, very literally. I talk about this in the book - there's a magazine called Godey's Lady's Book, which you might consider the Vogue or Good Housekeeping of today. Sort of fashion, but also home-y stuff. It was the biggest magazine in the antebellum country. And they talked all the time about how white women should stay thin or else they might start to be Black, like they might start to be looked on as if they're Black. There's another article from that magazine that says, "If a white woman gets fat, she might as well put herself in Black face."You can't see it if you're listening, but there's a lovely eye roll from Virginia. Our culture has long braided these things together. That's the history when you think about what hasn't changed. I think they are still braided together. When we think about what has changed, from my vantage point, there was maybe five or 10 years where it felt more ok to be fat, and more ok to be Black. It was the like ascendance of Lizzo, you know?VirginiaA brief shining moment. SavalaIt was a shining moment. There was also the George Floyd moment. There was a political reckoning with Blackness that was refreshing. I guess maybe it wasn't even five years. It was a brief window. Now it feels like we're in a backlash. It feels a little bit like the more things change, the more they stay the same. We had this moment of a collective leap towards something like liberation. Because of politics and because of the capitalistic nature of the pharmaceutical industry in this country and GLP-1s being so, for now anyway, profitable, we're seeing a real backlash to both fatness and Blackness. That lands on women really hard, because of how women are tied to our bodies in this culture in a particular way. So I guess I would say, the more things change, the more they stay the same. The silver lining being that because we did have these few years of something like enlightenment, the first sun rays coming over the mountain, there are a lot of people who have a much higher capacity to talk about what our culture does to fatness and Blackness than there were 20 years ago, right? So that's a silver lining, I think. VirginiaYes, I agree with that.We see these moments of women claiming their bodies and claiming control over their bodies, and then facing tremendous backlash. You talk about the Nicki Minaj album cover that she was taken to task for being too sexual, too graphic, etc.. She was like, 'It's my body.' Savala  'It’s my body.' Also, it's no worse than a Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue and everybody likes those. VirginiaYes, they sure do. But those are skinny white lady bodies. SavalaThose are skinny white ladies, not voluptuous Black women.Virginia  There are these moments where we have the conversation. Whereas if she hadn't had the album cover, we wouldn't have had the conversation. But I'm with you on how it's not enough. The backlash feels so brutal right now. But I do hang on to those moments.Savala  I do, as well. The comfort of a backlash is that you know you were doing something right. You can't make a quilt with one stitch. You have to put a lot of stitches in. So we have to keep stitching as far as our own liberation goes. The backlashes will come periodically, the tide comes in and out, you just try to keep inching it forward. I'm hopeful that we will continue, ultimately, to do that.Virginia  And keep reminding people where we've been. I really appreciated your post on Instagram this week. There's been so much talk about ICE as the gestapo and you were like, 'Guys, it's not the gestapo, it's slave patrols.' It's our own country. It's our own history that's coming up again here. I should note for listeners, you're hearing this in March, but we recording this at the end of January, right after all of the violence and murders in Minneapolis. Savala  I understand the urge to look to other countries and the violence in other places, and it's gestapo-like, you know. It's certainly fair to think about a comparison. But to completely ignore the fact that we actually invented this stuff.Virginia  That the gestapo guys learned it from us.SavalaOne hundred percent. Exactly.VirginiaThey've been watching what America was doing.Savala  Yes, and it's sad to own it, but it's a necessary step, and managing it and moving beyond it is to hold it close and see that it's our own stuff. It's like an individual who wants to grow and improve. They have to own their shit. 'Oh, this is my shit. I have to work on it.' It's the same. It's just at the level of culture.Virginia  As a country, we have to own our shit, and some of us are doing more of that than others. Well, on the level of the individual, you write a lot in the book about growing up as a fat little girl, being put on diets so heartbreakingly early and then continuing to pursue thinness throughout college and early adulthood. Now that you're on the other side of that, you write about how abandoning the pursuit of thinness feels like becoming a non-woman. I really was interested in this idea of the non-woman. I would love to talk about that a little.SavalaThere's a quote I love from a scholar, Sander Gilman, who studies fatness and gender. You might know this quote Virginia, some of your listeners might, too. He writes that dieting is a way that women show they understand their role in society. Part of the way that women remain and become legible in our culture is by practicing and performing privately and publicly dissatisfaction with their bodies and the pursuit of a better body, which generally means a thinner body, a more toned body, or a "healthier body."When you do those things as a woman, people get it. They understand you. They don't have to make any inferences. They don't have to wonder what you're doing. It's instantly obvious. When I talk about how much people rely on that sort of vocabulary to understand women. When I talk publicly at schools about this, one of the first things I do in my talks is post a before and after photo without the words "before" and "after." I ask people to raise their hands if they know what it is. The room could have 300 people in it and everybody raises their hands. They know exactly what they're seeing. That's what I mean when I say that the performance of dieting, or body improvement, or body shame, publicly and also privately, makes you readable as a woman to the culture. People can literally read it instantly, the way you can read a stop sign. When you stop doing that, when you stop dieting, exercising in ways that are meant to control the shape of your body, the weight of your body, all that stuff. When you stop using that vocabulary to bond with other women, when you stop policing what other people eat. When you stop doing those things, people don't get it. There's some level on which you're no longer performing the role of a woman. That's what I mean when I say that you become a non-woman. You become this other entity, that, let's be clear, exists in other cultures. It has existed in this culture to some extent, in various pockets of it, but that's what I mean. You step outside of the mold, and then people aren't quite sure what to do with you. Can I give a quick example? VirginiaYeah, please. SavalaI work with a fabulous team of people I love and adore at UC Berkeley. One of them had a birthday, so to celebrate, I brought in a box of fabulous French pastries. We have a little birthday party and we invite lots of people to come by and pick something up if they want to. Every single person, every person, who came in the room said something, and they all happen to be women, something like, 'Ooh, I worked out this morning. That's how I that's how I earned this.' Some version of, 'Oh, God, I shouldn't. I had a bagel for breakfast,' or, 'I'm gonna cut it in half because I think I'm gonna have a big dinner tonight.' I was the only one who didn't. At some point I said, "Come on, guys. Let's just let the food be food. We don't have to earn our food here."Virginia  You don’t actually have to publicly perform. Savala  You could have heard a pin drop, Virginia. VirginiaOh, I'm sure.SavalaIt was like I said something in a different language. People don't know how to read the moment anymore. They don't know how to read me anymore. It's so disruptive. So that's what I mean about becoming the non-woman. In that essay, I then go on to talk about the joy of being a non-woman. I don't mean this in the sense of gender identity, I mean it in a more metaphorical, philosophical way. I very much identify as a woman.Virginia  Right, but you're rejecting these expectations and this narrow definition of womanhood.Savala  One hundred percent. It's a little experiment. If listeners want to try that, I'm sure most of your listeners are already at least one foot in the door of not dieting anymore, but if they want to try performing something else and seeing how they become no longer instantly readable in the space, they'll know what I mean.Virginia  It's interesting because it's about how you simultaneously become more visible because you're doing this uncomfortable thing no one knows what to do with, and you're rendering yourself more invisible because you're no longer saying Yes, you can identify me as a sex object. Yes, you can identify me as young and thin and pretty and all the you know. So then it's like, 'Oh, we don't know what to do with her.'Savala  Totally. It's a spotlight. It's like, what's that? There's some rubbernecking that happens and you can be in the mood to deal with it or not. It's not like I always will say something when I'm around little pockets of diet culture. But in that moment, there were 12 or 15 people who came through and it was every single one. Virginia  Can we not just eat the pastries?Savala  Yeah. And if you don't want one for whatever reason, that's ok. Virginia  Don't tell us why. Just don't eat it. It's fine.Well, that's a great example too, because that's also the kind of modeling that I'm sure you're conscious of doing in front of your kiddo. There's a line in the book I really loved where you write:My child is my child, carrier of my histories, and I worry she'll be particularly vulnerable to dieting. In order to fortify her, I build a home life free from diet culture. This is, of course, a huge focus of my work. It's why I wrote Fat Talk.SavalaIt's the bread and butter, if you will.Virginia  It is the bread, yes. We'll get to the butter, but it's definitely the foundation of Burnt Toast. Deliberately, I'm more likely to say, 'Let's just eat the cake,' or 'Eat the dessert' when I know my kids are listening, because I've got to model the other way. I've got to model the non-woman for them.I would love to know what are some of the little things you do to get the anti-diet, parenting stuff in?Savala  Well, the number one thing, and this will be very familiar to the Burnt Toast crew, is I, myself don't diet. That's number one. I don't pursue intentional weight loss, and I haven't since my daughter was about six months old. That was breaking point when I started to look for a different kind of life. Not only do I not diet or pursue intentional weight loss, I never, not once, have ever spoken ill of my body or complained about my body in front of my daughter. It's funny when you're raising a girl because on the one hand, I want my daughter to feel beautiful and I want to speak a sense of beauty into her. "Oh, you're so beautiful." And I want to talk about myself through the lens of beauty for that reason, too. On the other hand, you don't want to over emphasize beauty and teach them that that is a super meaningful currency that they have to ... you know what I mean? Virginia  It's like, 'You are beautiful and it's the least interesting thing about you.' You're holding both of those with both hands all the time.Savala  All the time. So I speak well of my body, but try not to do it in a way that feels too "cover of a magazine" oriented. There are other little things like, we decant food in our house so most of it is not associated with "nutrition information."And we talk about nutrition information, because she picks it up in the world. But in our house, it's just in the container. I make a point of letting her choose how much she eats. I tend to take on the responsibility of picking what's on offer, and then she chooses how much. But we've mix that up as she's gotten older.I fill my home with physical media, like figurines, statues, posters, books that have all kinds of bodies, especially fat bodies, because I want that to feel normal and celebrated for her. I want her to see fat bodies depicted as beautiful, wonderful things, not just as things we try to move away from or punish. It's good for me, too. Almost anything that I practice for myself, I practice for her, in an age appropriate way. Including being really playful. It doesn't all have to be political. I talk in the book about this one episode where my daughter was probably about four or five years old, and she wanted some chocolate chips after she had already had dessert. Initially, I was like, "No, you had your ice cream. We'll have chocolate chips another time." And then I was like, I want some chocolate chips. I said, "Actually, yeah, let's have some chocolate chips." We each had a little handful, and she said, "I wish I could have more." And I was like, "I think one is enough." And then I was like, "Actually, let's have more." And we sort of did that playfully a few times. She still loves it. She remembers it was such joy. My goal there was to have a little fun, but also to celebrate appetite, and take this moment that we often are taught to read as personal failure - going back for a little more - and change it into something that was fun and goofy and totally fine.Virginia  Celebrating pleasure. Yeah, let's have more. It tastes good tonight. Let's do it and not feel like we have to put guardrails around that.Savala  Exactly. I look for moments like that, and I'll say, who knows what the future brings, but my kid has a really joyful, non self-conscious relationship with food that involves eating all kinds of things, including broccoli and kale, and with her body. Who knows what the world brings? Well, we do know what the world brings. We know what's coming, but she has a foundation that's much better than mine was.Virginia  Yeah, such a different foundation than what you had. And that has to do something. I have to believe that.Savala  Yeah, it has to. It has to. And I must say, obviously, your book inspired me and was part of my inspiration in how I approached feeding my kiddo.Virginia  I'm so glad it's helpful. Yeah, I mean, it's always a work in progress, but it is really rewarding when you see kids having that ease and not overthinking and not getting caught in those in those traps that we do. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterEditor's note: We're splitting Savala's interview into two episodes, so tune in to part two on March 19 to hear Savala's "classy and trashy" butters. Part two will be for paid subscribers only, so go to patreon.com/virginiasolesmith to join us. Membership starts at just $5 per month. You're not going to want to miss this the second part of this conversation.Join here for just $5 per monthJoin Just Toast!🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈VirginiaAll right. Well, this was an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for being here. Just tell folks where we find you and how we support your work.SavalaOh, it's been a serious joy to be here. I could do it all again. The best way to support my work is, of course, to buy Good Woman: A Reckoning and share it with the women in your life that you love, and maybe even the the men in your life that you love.VirginiaI agree with that. SavalaIf you can't buy it, you can get it at libraries, or borrow it from a friend. Obviously, as an author, I'm interested in book sales, but mostly I'm interested in the ideas in the book doing good in the world. So read Good Woman. If people want to hang out a little bit, I'm on Instagram at savalanolan. SavalaNolan.com is my website, which is another way to get in touch with me. I totally welcome that. I love doing book clubs, talking to readers, all that stuff, so if folks are interested, they should reach out.Virginia  Thank you, Savala. This was such a joy.SavalaThank you, Virginia. The pleasure was mine.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Thanks for listening to Burnt Toast. If you enjoyed the conversation, please support our work with a paid subscription. They start at just $5 a month, and you'll keep Burnt Toast an ad and sponsor free space. Learn more at https://www.patreon.com/virginiasolesmith/join.Make sure you are following us for free in your podcast player. Scroll down wherever you're listening, tap the stars, five of them please, and leave us a review. That really helps us grow and helps new listeners find conversations like these.The Burnt Toast Podcast is hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. You can follow Virginia on Instagram at @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.bsky.social. You can follow Corinne on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay.bsky.social and on Patreon at Big Undies.This podcast is produced by Kim Baldwin. You can follow Kim at @theblondemule on all platforms and subscribe to her newsletter at The Blonde Mule.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Our video editor is Elizabeth Ayiku, who also runs the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders. Learn more and donate at melittlemefoundation.org.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay and it’s time for your February Indulgence Gospel!Today we are talking about influencers who show their expensive influencer grocery hauls, as well as people who spend A LOT OF MONEY on food delivery. (If you too had feelings about that ChrisLovesJulia reel...let's get into it!) We also talk about our own spending on groceries and food delivery....and our complicated feelings about both. 🥴You do need to be a paid Just Toast subscriber to listen to this full conversation. Membership starts at just $5 per month!Join Just Toast!🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 234 TranscriptVirginiaToday we are going to talk about a phenomenon that I keep seeing on Instagram: influencer groceries. So these are reels where people unpack all their bags and show you all the food going in their fridge. It's like, 'Oh, by the way, we're a family of four and we spent $600 at the grocery store.'As someone who buys groceries for a family that size, I would like to say that that number is jarring and yet, also not totally out of the realm of possibility. It made me take a hard look at my grocery spending. What are we performing in these reels where people are showing what and how they eat, and what are the diet culture implications of that?Corinne, how about you? Do your groceries cost $600 a week?Corinne  I won't respond to that directly.VirginiaWe will just skip that question.Corinne  Groceries are a perennially interesting topic for me. Everyone has been saying that grocery prices are crazy now! VirginiaThey're so high. CorinneWhen I saw that particular reel about how much a family is spending per week on groceries, I was like, "believable."Virginia  Yeah. The reel that we're going to talk about is from Julia Marcum, aka @chrislovesjulia. I have talked before on this podcast about she is one of my problematic faves. She is a high-end, home influencer/Mormon wife and mother who now lives in North Carolina, just to locate the economics of her grocery shopping. She has talked openly about living with a lot of food restrictions due to health problems. She is grain, gluten, dairy, pork and refined sugar free. Which I was like, How do you spend money on groceries? There's nothing left to eat. This is a particular reel where we see her husband, Chris, coming into the house with multiple paper bags of groceries from, I believe, Trader Joe's and Whole Foods. Then he's unloading organic yogurt, so much produce, like nine boxes of blueberries, and these sort of, I don't know, some kind of special breakfast sausage, lots of packaged foods, but not the kind of packaged foods we would demonize as processed foods. It's very heavy on the wellness brands and the produce side of things, I would say.Corinne  I agree with that assessment. When I was watching it being unpacked, I was like, This feels like a treats grocery shopping trip for me. Where you go grocery shopping and buy yourself a lot of treats.Virginia  It's the fancy food shopping. That's what I thought, too.CorinneThe juice, the berries.VirginiaAnd they were like, 'No, this is how we eat every week. We just eat fancy food all the time.' There's two whole chickens in the mix, which I'm oddly fixated on. But it is true, sometimes a whole chicken doesn't feed as many people as you think it's going to. So I guess I understand roasting two at once. A couple of things were really interesting to me about this. One, yes, there's the diet culture piece of things: she says that her go-to snack is blueberries. That is both an expensive go-to snack, and not a very satisfying go-to snack. What's with the blueberries? I want to know. She talks about how she eats exactly what the rest of the family does, but if they're eating rice, she'll eat cauliflower rice. So I was like, Well, that's not eating exactly what the family eats. There's also a humblebrag that Chris "runs the grocery and dinner rhythm," as she puts it. She cooked for six months after they got married and then he took over. That's obviously fairly rare in heterosexual marriage. Much more often the mom is doing all of the mental load of grocery shopping and food prep. So I thought that was pretty interesting. There's also the backlash in the comment section. People were pretty mad about this grocery haul. Corinne  It's hard not to feel mad when you're seeing someone living it up when most people are stressed about grocery bills. Also, how are they keeping all those blueberries good for a week? One thing of blueberries in my fridge goes bad in like two days.Virginia  I know. You breathe on them and they all wither and die.Corinne  Just buy frozen blueberries?Virginia  I buy quite a lot of frozen blueberries for smoothies every week and they are much cheaper.Corinne  Definitely more economical.Virginia  If you're just standing there snacking on them like a squirrel, what difference does it make if they're fresh or frozen? This reel was posted the first week of February. It was just a couple months ago that the federal government canceled SNAP for all of November. Millions of families didn't know how to buy groceries at all. So there's a real lack of awareness. The Marcums are never political, but I would guess their political leanings run conservative. There's probably a conscious choice not to worry, 'Are we offending people who are struggling to feed their families when we talk about spending $657 on one week of groceries?'It also made me think about Mormon prosperity gospel culture. This is very celebrated to be able to live lavishly and well in this way and have all of this elaborate food, and they kind of dress it up in 'food is an important part of our family's bonding time.' But you can have quality family bonding time around food and not have it be this kind of food.Corinne  One question I also had was, when they made this reel, did they think, 'Oh, people are going to be outraged by this.' I'm just so curious what they expected the response would be.Virginia  I can't decide if they are that out of touch with what the average family is like. Is this like the Lucille Bluth banana moment? Is that what's happening? Or was it honestly a little more insidious, and they knew that number would get crazy engagement? Because it absolutely did.Corinne  I kind of think the latter. Did they respond at all?Virginia  Yes, there is a comment from Julia where she says, “I know that's a big grocery budget. Everyone prioritizes their money differently.” Some people just don't have money Julia! But sure, it's priorities. “I've been sharing Chris Cooks recipes for 17 years, and our budget has fluctuated from price matching everything in my cart to this.”And then she talks about her eating issues.“The back story that newcomers may not know. Two years ago, I had a really bad relationship with food. It felt like every month I had to cut out a new food group due to health complications. My blood sugar was out of whack. I was diagnosed with reactive hypoglycemia and celiac disease. On top of my autoimmune condition. I coped by completely disconnecting from food and saw it as fuel only. It wasn't fun to eat because my diet was so restricted.”She names all her restrictions. “At the beginning of 2025 I made it a goal to have a better relationship with food, for me and my family's sake, food is so much more than vital. It brings people together. It's an activity and a hobby and an experience. I still don't eat more food groups, but I no longer eat the same thing every day out of fear.” Other than the pint of blueberries, I guess. “Yes, we spend a lot of on groceries. It's usually closer to $550 a week, to be honest. But this week we got more because of bad weather. But it is also Chris's hobby, my medicine and the way we show our love to others, no regrets.”Corinne  In a way, I do find that comment sort of convincing.Virginia  It's really her experience of it. Corinne  If you have a hard relationship with food, I think there is freedom in just being like, 'Yeah, I'm going to spend more money on food I like.' If you have the money.Virginia  There's a tremendous privilege here. I would love more acknowledging of the privilege rather than just saying, 'Everyone has different priorities.' Some people's priority is keeping their heat on, so they're not spending a lot on groceries.Corinne  I don't follow her, so maybe I should start. But what is she cutting back on?Virginia  Absolutely nothing. One of my favorite comments in the thread/backlash is a person being like, 'Are you all surprised? They live in a million dollar home. They just bought a lake house. Like, was this your first clue that they are living a lifestyle the rest of us cannot afford?'So no, she's cutting back on absolutely nothing in order to pay for these groceries. It's not a question of priorities. It's a question of conspicuous consumption. I also think it's interesting that she frames it as Chris's hobby, that family dinner and feeding the family is his hobby. She's propping him up, like, 'Oh, what a hero. He does the grocery shopping and makes dinner, so I don't have to. What a good husband.' And then also, it's like, 'Well, guys, he just really loves it. It's his hobby.'Corinne  That is a justification people use for spending more on groceries though. It's entertainment, basically.Virginia  And I don't think that's the worst thing. I just think it's interesting in the context of her saying, 'This is labor he's performing for the family.'Corinne  I would not like to hear a husband say that about his wife, that cooking dinner "was her hobby."Virginia  'She's just so into it, she just can't get enough.' No, it just has to happen every night, but ok.Corinne  Should we talk about our own grocery bills?Virginia  I'm not going to share numbers because numbers are triggering to me, personally. But I'll share a few numbers. I will say that in order to prep for this episode, I went and added up everything I spent on groceries in January and the number is much higher than I expected it to be. Some context is, this number does include all of our household items. I noticed Julia did not unpack any toilet paper, kitty litter, or cleaning supplies. All of that is a separate line item in her budget. My number includes everything that we buy at the grocery store for our house. So there's that. We also did host out of town guests twice. So there was buying more hobby type of food for entertaining. My kids have particular food preferences. It is absolutely a privilege that I can support those preferences and buy the specific brands of certain items that they really rely on. I think anyone who deals with a kid, picky eating, ARFID, or anything in that universe knows what I'm talking about. We get real excited when we see Amy's burritos on sale, but they are not always on sale, and they are still a staple in our house. So, yeah, my numbers are high. I would say the average grocery trip is around $180 to $200, and we're probably going at least twice a week. Corinne  One thing I was thinking about when I was looking at my own numbers was the fact that last year we stopped shopping at Amazon. For me, that included Whole Foods, where I was getting a lot of groceries.VirginiaDid you save money? CorinneWhole Foods has the reputation of being crazy expensive. But what I've been substituting it with is the Co-Op, and the Co-Op is definitely more expensive than Whole Foods. The basic grocery store here, which is Kroger variations like Albertsons or Smiths, is less expensive than Whole Foods most of the time, but sometimes comparable. So I think I'm definitely spending more this year, rising food costs aside. In January, I was traveling for a week, I had my birthday and all kinds of other stuff. So I looked back at a couple months and I had a crazy amount of variation. Some months we're talking $350, some months we're talking $1,000.VirginiaTotal for the month? Not $1,000 in one grocery shop?CorinneOh, yeah. No. Sorry, I was looking at the month not the week.VirginiaI just wanted to clarify since the Chris Loves Julia reel is $657 for one shop.Corinne  I think my average is probably $100 a week. But that's for me, one person. Their number is for five people. Is that right? So yeah, they're technically, maybe spending less per person than I am? I don't know. Virginia  I mean, they are buying a lot of blueberries, but I hear you. It's interesting how uncomfortable it is to look at this spending, and some of it we don't have any control over, because, again, food prices are astronomical right now. They're only getting worse. I think there is so much cultural pressure to eat healthy in certain ways, which are almost always more expensive because of our broken food system. It still feels super uncomfortable to look and realize you're spending more than you thought you were, or that you want to be, but it's like, are we - not to be a Chris Loves Julia apologist now - but are we holding ourselves to a standard of not spending a lot on food? Is that actually a realistic standard in this day and age? I'm not sure that it is.Corinne  The other thing their grocery bill doesn't show is how much they're spending on takeout or DoorDash.Virginia  Let's talk about that. Also, a hard moment for me. But yes, we want to also talk about a piece that was in New York Times Cooking, a story from New York Times food writer Priya Krishna, about people who are just really dependent on the convenience of food delivery, but aware that the costs are insane. The example she uses, that was in an Instagram post, is a married couple with kids who were spending about $700 a week to order in. I guess by that math the Chris Loves Julia tab is not so bad, because I assume they were only ordering in dinner, although I'm actually not sure.Corinne  This article is wild, and I will say that I was much more afraid to look at my own numbers on this. Then I looked at them, and I was like, This is actually not bad at all. VirginiaOh, wow. That's great for you. CorinneHowever, I've really been thinking a lot about food delivery because, I don't know if you saw this, but at the beginning of the year there was a Reddit food delivery whistleblower post. I think it was about Uber Eats. (More on this here!)Someone posted all this stuff about how literally evil these companies are, how they give drivers a "desperation score," and then give those people lower paying jobs. And how if you tip high, they lower the base pay. However -VirginiaWait, if you tip high, they lower lower the base pay?Corinne  Ok, let me finish! I literally read this and was so upset. I was like, I'm never DoorDashing again. Then when I went to do a light bit of research for this episode and it turns out that it was an AI-generated thing. It's not real. Whether or not those policies actually exist, I don't know. But they tried to fact check it and it turned out to be fake.VirginiaHow do we trust anything? I don't understand. I don't know.Corinne  I also had this crazy experience where I DoorDashed a few things and saw them get stolen off my porch. I chased the person down, screaming at them through my neighborhood. I did not get my things back. I was just like, What am I doing? I'm trying to make my life easier, but I'm actually just making it harder and more miserable. These companies are bad, even if they're not as evil as I thought.VirginiaI mean, they're not good.Corinne  So I've really been trying not to do DoorDash.Virginia  I'm cutting down. I'm a work in progress. I've been ignoring all of the hidden fees. I also tip really high because I've been worried about the worker experience, although now I'm wondering if it's good to tip high if they lose the base pay. I assume me over-tipping is still the way to go. We are down to ordering Uber Eats probably once a week, and it's usually around $100 every time for dinner for two people, which is wild.Corinne  That doesn't seem bad, because I feel like every time I order it's $80.Virginia  It's a lot. I feel complicated about this because there was a season in my life, quite recently, where I was very dependent on delivery. After my divorce, it was just me doing all the things in my house, and feeding us was a place where my bandwidth really - like, I was just done. I was maxed out. I was so burned out on cooking. It wasn't fun cooking for just me and my kids. It was really hard. Being able to order delivery got me through that season. And now that there's someone sharing cooking with me again, I feel like, Ok, we could work on this more. We could cook the pantry more often, even if we didn't make a meal plan. We don't have to default to ordering sushi. But also, I love sushi. I'm not saying I'm never going to do it.Corinne  I will say, for me it's a fallback. Whenever I'm stressed and feeling like I don't have enough time, I'm like, I'll just DoorDash it, or, I'll just Instacart it. I do feel like forty percent of the time something ends up going slightly wrong.Virginia  I live on a road where I'm on a road named South, and there's also a road name North. If you go to the road named North, you're on a mountain lost to civilization. So I've definitely had a few deliveries go off into the ether that way, which, I feel awful for them, and sad for me. I agree. It's this thing that's supposed to reduce friction and make your life easier, and then it can end up being absolutely not that, which is frustrating, but again, for folks who are primary caregivers, single parents, disabled folks, there's a lot of reasons why the accessibility of delivery is important. It would be nice if, as a society, we valued that labor and paid delivery drivers well for their work, because it is, I would argue, kind of a vital service.Corinne  It's a really interesting, big change in the way the world works in the past five years. I also think about working in a restaurant and what it must be like to make so much food that's getting eaten elsewhere.Virginia  Yeah, you're just boxing stuff up. You lose the community feeling of eating out. That feels like a loss. I felt less judgment for the couple spending $700 a week to order in than I did on the Marcum's grocery bill. I don't know what that means because they're both performing wealth, for sure. If you're in a position to spend $700 a week on dinner, even if you're scandalized by it, you have wealth. But also, man, cooking is hard. I'm tired, too. I get it.Corinne  Personally, I was feeling more judgment for the $700 a week, ordering-in people. But I will say, ordering in is so dependent on where you live. Like, if you live in New York, the quality of food you can order in is just a lot higher than for example where my mom lives, the only option is Domino's.Virginia  We have more options than that, but in terms of really good meals that I'm excited to order in, sushi or Indian, that's really it. Again, during that stressful period, there were weeks I ate sushi more than once, for sure. But it does put a cap on how often that works. I'm like, Well, you literally just ate that. My main critique of the Marcums is not that they spend that much on groceries, but that they so obliviously performed how much they spend in order to get engagement. Were sponsors involved? They weren't disclosed, but it seems very likely given how many product labels are in that reel - that somebody was paying them to promote that stuff. That is worth critiquing more than people's individual eating habits, because feeding yourself is hard, and feeding your kids is hard.Corinne  I think there's more guilt in general over ordering in versus buying groceries. Like buying groceries is better?Virginia  Yeah, it's Chris. He's out there making dinner with the two roast chickens every night. That's noble and heroic. And ordering in is like, 'Oh, you're just a slob on your couch.' I think they're morally equivalent activities, for sure. They're both ways to feed yourself. There's no bad way to feed yourself. Corinne  I definitely felt more guilt looking at my ordering in number versus my groceries number.Virginia  I felt bad about all of it. I felt I there was no good here for me, and also I feel like, Well, I'm doing what I can to get everybody fed in a house with a lot of complicated needs, and that is what it is. All right. Well, this was a really juicy conversation. I'm excited to hear people's thoughts. You can tell us if you think we spend way too much or not enough, and how you spend on groceries and take out. I would love to hear. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterVirginiaShould we do butter? CorinneYeah, what's your butter? VirginiaMy butter is my amazing calendar that you gave me for Christmas by your friend Robyn Frank.CorinneYes, Robyn A. Frank (website here.)VirginiaIt's been making me happy. I hung it up in January, but then I just switched to February and the February picture is so beautiful. I was just like, Oh, all year long, this is going to give me joy.Corinne  It's an amazing calendar. I also have one. Robyn is a friend and we do the Fat Swim together. She's an Albuquerque, New Mexico-based artist.Virginia  Her work is beautiful. It's really cheerful and rainbow-y, but not cutesy rainbows, like aesthetic rainbows. I may not be describing it well.CorinneThat's a good description. I like that. VirginiaI should also note that Corinne's other Christmas present to me, which I was going to make its own separate butter, but I'll just go ahead and shout it out now, is the L.L. Bean boat and tote that she had monogrammed with the word "BUTTER" on it. You guys, it's such a good gift. Corinne  Can't wait to see it in the wild.Virginia  It's been getting a lot of use. I need to take photos of it out and about. It's great. All right, what about you? Corinne  Ok, well, my butter is that this past weekend, one of my friends came over and we made Valentine's. VirginiaI love that. CorinneIt was really fun. I couldn't tell you the last time I did that - make a Valentine, or do a glue stick based craft. Afterwards, I was like, Wow, that was so fun. Am I going to start collaging? I know we were talking about that with Kim, too. So my butter is paper crafts, glue sticks.Virginia  I love collaging and glue sticks. My kids have never been super into it, but I do keep a lot of glue sticks on our art table to encourage it. I have found that if you're someone who has sensory feelings about glue sticks, a good sticker collection is really great here. Sometimes I'll just sit and make little sticker postcards. It's very satisfying. Are you sending them out to people?Corinne  Well, I haven't yet, but that is my intention. I will say, I think I made like, three. It took longer than I thought.Virginia  That makes sense. It's not a holiday gift, or like a Christmas card list.CorinneNope!VirginiaTwo hundred people are getting handmade Valentine's? No. That makes sense. I love that. And I love any opportunity to make Valentine's Day and adjacent activities that are not so, you know, commercial and heteronormative and blah, blah, blah.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈 All right. Well, this was a good episode. Make sure you are following us in your podcast player. Scroll down wherever you're listening, tap the stars, five of them please, and leave us a review. That really helps us grow and helps new listeners find conversations like these.Today's Indulgence Gospel is hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. You can follow Virginia on Instagram at @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.bsky.social. You can follow Corinne on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay.bsky.social and on Patreon at Big Undies.This podcast is produced by Kim Baldwin. You can follow Kim at @theblondemule on all platforms and subscribe to her newsletter at The Blonde Mule.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Our video editor is Elizabeth Ayiku, who also runs the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders. Learn more and donate at melittlemefoundation.org.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You're listening to Burnt Toast! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.Today our conversation is with Kim Baldwin, the newest member of the Burnt Toast team.Kim is the former digital editor for the Nashville Scene. Her culture writing can be found in places like the Nashville Scene, Parnassus Books’ Musings and on her Substack. Kim has interviewed folks like Sarah Sherman, Trixie Mattel, John Waters, Samantha Irby and Tess Holliday.Originally a blogger, Kim started The Blonde Mule in 2006 and later turned her popular interview series “These My Bitches” into a podcast called Ladyland. Kim writes a weekly newsletter about books and pop culture, teaches social media classes and is a frequent conversation partner for author events in Nashville.If you enjoy this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work!Join Burnt Toast🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 233 TranscriptVirginiaWe have a very fun episode for you today. We are introducing to all the Burnt Toasties, many of whom may already know and love her, our new podcast producer Kim Baldwin. KimHi, hi, hi. VirginiaWe are really happy you're here. Kim is doing a lot of things to improve our workflow. Yesterday she taught Corinne and me how to use Slack. Corinne, I think you already knew how to use Slack, but I sure did not. So that was exciting.Kim is joining us not just to teach us Slack, but to help with podcast production and make everything run more smoothly and efficiently. We are really grateful to her and thought it would be fun to do an episode where you get to know her.Kim  I'm excited to be on the Burnt Toast team, and excited to be here today despite harrowing conditions. VirginiaTruly harrowing.KimI'm coming to you live from a public library because my home does not have water or internet.Virginia  Yes, Kim is surviving the Nashville ice apocalypse, where, what 130,000 people have been displaced?Kim230,000.Virginia230,000 people have been displaced. So she has been heroically working on Burnt Toast while literally being out of her home, back in her home, but now working from the library. Yay, public libraries! We love you. Let's dive in. Corinne, why don't we take turns asking our questions?Corinne  My first question is, what is your fat radicalization story? How did you get interested in body liberation work?Kim  When I turned 40 I had to get a biometric screening for health insurance because over 40, you have to qualify for insurance. It was a really stigmatizing appointment. In hindsight, it was traumatic. My therapist was like, Enough. You have to go see someone now. That was 2018. I started working with an anti-diet registered dietitian. I thought I was going for one or two appointments, just for someone to say, "It's fine, you're all good." It became evident I had a disordered relationship, primarily with exercise, but also with eating. I went into what I now call recovery. It wasn't called that in real-time. It was just a chill, "Well, why don't you come see me every week for a while?"So I did that. I worked with Katherine Fowler, a non-diet, registered dietitian nutritionist here in Nashville. She's great. I knew nothing before her. She introduced me to anti-diet and Health at Every Size. She gave me a bunch of resources, one of which was Christy Harrison and Food Psych. I went whole hog. I listened to the back catalog of Food Psych, I read a bunch of books. I think Christy's first book came out around that time. It was so radical to me to think, Hold on, I can be fat, or, Hold on, I don't have to exercise this much. I was an Iron Man, so I was at that level of exercise.Virginia  Oh wow. Oh gosh, that's aggressive.Kim  When you exercise that much, for me, restrictive eating is just part of it. They really do go hand in hand. You control your food to try to control your outcomes and races and stuff. That's a long answer: back in 2018 I started working with registered dietitian, and she blew my mind and saved my life.Virginia  That's amazing. Yay, registered dietitians who do that work! Also, yay, Food Psych! That was a great podcast. Corinne, wasn't it one of your entry points, too? I feel like we've talked about this.Corinne  Yeah. I was a regular listener.Virginia  Just hearing people's stories over and over. The way Christy structured that was so healing and valuable for so many people.I've always been a fan of your culture writing. You always have amazing book recs, movie recs. Your newsletter The Blonde Mule is definitely one of my go to's for like, Ooh, what culture am I missing out on? Kim will know. So I would love to know who are some of your fat culture inspirations, icons, or just people you really love in that space?Kim  For sure Aubrey Gordon. She was an original, and back then, she was anonymous. Her Instagram posts back in the day - she still sometimes reposts those old ones in her stories. She still means so much to me. I learned about her early on. And then, of course, Lindy West. I had read Shrill, and because I worked at an alt-weekly, she also worked at The Stranger in Seattle, which is their alt-weekly, and we had similar jobs, so I looked up to her. She had this great essay in The Stranger where she came out as fat. In real time, I wasn't there yet, but when I got into recovery and started learning, I realized how ahead of her time - ahead of all of us - she was. And then, Virginia, you and people I found through Food Psych and through Christy. Back then we were all still using social media with wild abandon. You could learn about people through Instagram stories. Christy Harrison would repost all these people to her Instagram stories and I would click through and follow who she reposted. She'd repost something of yours, or, I can't even remember all the people back then. Oh, Ragen Chastain. I've been reading her stuff this whole time. I hope everyone reads her and knows what amazing work she's doing in this space. I can't get a sense of how many people know how much she's doing.Virginia  She does such deep dives into the research. She really is someone who is taking the time to take apart scientific papers, look at the methodology, look a what bias went into the research. I have learned so much from Ragen. I started following her back in probably the early 2000s when she was writing about being a fat dancer. I remember I interviewed her for a woman's magazine.KimOh right. I forgot about that, her original handle.VirginiaDances With Fat. Oh, you're making me nostalgic for this time. Now everyone's like, Body positivity is dead, and it was never really good, but there were these really good folks doing great work in the mix. Kim  There was an organic way to find, I don't want to say community in the way we say it now, but I didn't know anybody in real life going through what I was going through, or who was learning what I was learning. All I had, truly, was Food Psych. So if someone was on Food Psych, I would look them up. I would follow them. And then that reposting thing, that's how I found so many people.Virginia  Yeah, it's so true.Corinne  Kim, where does the name The Blonde Mule come from? Kim  Oh, this question.CorinneIf you want to skip it ...KimIt brings up a lot of embarrassment. I should address it. VirginiaIt's time. Kim, it's time. I don't know the backstory.KimIn 2006 I started a personal blog on blogspot because everyone was doing it. Back then it was the thing to have a cutesy name. No one used their government name online back then. Your email wasn't your name, your blog - none of that was your name. I'm a Taurus and I am actually stubborn, so "the mule" was kind of a nickname. There was this formula of a physical descriptor plus a nickname. All my friends had a version of this. I thought, Oh, I'll just do the blonde mule. I'll change it later, nobody cares. No one followed me. Then I had to buy my domain name and get handles on social media sites. So 2006 to 2026, how many years is that? Is that 20 years? So unfortunately, I'm locked in. Because now I own that name. I don't love it because I wish I hadn't self identified with my hair color. Especially because it's blonde and that means a lot of things that don't align with my values. Also, during the pandemic, I quit coloring my hair and so I'm not really blonde anymore.Virginia  A blonde-ish mule.Corinne  I would consider you blonde. Virginia  I still would consider you blonde. CorinneAlso Virginia, aren't you also a Taurus?VirginiaI am also a Taurus. I am also pretty stubborn.CorinneThis is an earth sign podcast. I'm a Capricorn.KimJohn, my husband, is a Capricorn.Virginia  I don't know what that means. KimWe're very compatible.Corinne  Yes, I also have a Taurus Moon.Virginia  Sure. I've been meaning to get one of those. I don't understand astrology. But I do relate to picking a name and sticking with it because now you're stuck with it. In many ways that is the backstory of Burnt Toast. So relatable. I named it on a whim. People are always like, What's that about? And I'm like, I mean, not a lot. But it is what it is. The Blonde Mule is sticky. It sticks with you.Kim  There are people who make me feel better. One is Samantha Irby because she is still bitches gotta eat. She also is from, like, 2006. There are a few of us that are locked in. What are you going to do? I literally bought this name.Virginia  I'm stuck with it. You might as well own it, for sure. Another part of your work life is that you work at the famous Parnassus Books, owned by best-selling author and icon Ann Patchett. I am a former bookstore girl. I love bookstores. Most authors, we love bookstores. So I really love talking about bookstores. I want to know, what's the most fun part of bookstore life? Also, does this bookstore have any pets?Kim  The bookstore has so many pets. We have shop dogs. Ann famously has a dog, Nemo. He appears in most of the videos. Before Nemo she had a cute little guy named Sparky, who I loved so much. There's a back office staff and they almost all have dogs and bring their dogs to work. VirginiaLove this. KimThere's one bookseller who has a dog, but she's on maternity leave, so we're a little bit short on dogs that are out on the floor, but in the back office, it's dog central. This is my second time working there. I worked there in 2019. I've mostly been self-employed and worked from home for a really long time. My mood was starting to get dark and my therapist suggested it would be nice to have some socialization and to leave my house one or two days a week. I was friendly with Parnassus, so I asked, "Is this a thing?" And they were excited, so they hired me to be a part-time bookseller back in 2019. Then the pandemic hit and they closed for a long time and it just didn't make sense anymore. I went and did a whole other job for a few years and left that job last year and went back to the bookstore. Same thing. I still work from home and I work at the bookstore one or two days a week. I do actually love a million things about it, but my favorite thing this round is everyone I work with is 24 years old, give or take. I love them so much. It is so invigorating to be around a whole staff of 24 year olds. They all love their parents. They have really good parents. They're mostly queer, which makes it extra nice that none of their parents were bad. Their parents are super accepting. They're all really smart and they're all funny. The things that are funny to them are so strange. There are all these long running jokes about, like, which Muppet are you? That's a fun thing for Gen Z.Virginia  That sounds delightful. I mean, I think bookstore people are just the best people and the most charming weirdos. And I love hearing that 24 year olds love their parents. Because even though my oldest kid is 12, and we have a ways to go, fingers crossed we'll get there.Kim  Yeah. Our generation, not so much.Virginia  It's not a given. Let's put it that way. It's not a given.We're going to do a lightning round of fun, goofy questions so we can all get to know you better. Corinne, why don't you kick it off?Corinne  All right, first question. Tell us about your pets.Kim  Ooh, I have two official pets. I have two cats. They came in at different times. They're both street cats. One is Nomi. He's kind of a Siamese cat. The other one is your regular striped street cat. His name is Benny.VirginiaAnd you have an owl in your backyard. KimI have an owl. I live in the country, so we have deer, turkey, owls, hawks, a skunk and a lot of snakes.Virginia  Nice. Favorite hobbies? I know from Instagram you are into collage making and you are into puzzles and I'm here for both of them.Kim  Yes, you are part of my puzzle journey. I knew that you got that table and you were doing them, and I thought, Ooh, that seems relaxing. We moved into this house last year, and I thought, Who am I going to be in the country? I'm going to be someone who does puzzles, and I'm going to get a puzzle table. And I did.Virginia  It's so relaxing. The best.Kim  The collage thing is new. I went to a divorce party and we were doing blackout poetry collages. I had never heard of any of this. I had the time of my life and my friend was like, You can just do this at home. And so now I do.Virginia  Corinne was nodding because Corinne is cooler and of course she knows what black out poetry collages are. I do not. CorinneI think you do, as well. VirginiaIs it like what Kate Baer writes? Like blacked out words? Okay, that is cool. I love that.Corinne  Kim, tell us your favorite comfort food or snacks.Kim  I've needed a lot of comfort this week. My go-to is chicken tenders and mashed potatoes. You do need carbs when you're this stressed out because your body's trying to slow you down and get you to rest and sleep. So there's been a lot of tendies in my life.Corinne  Are these from a specific restaurant? Or the freezer section?Kim  This week they're from a grocery store. There's a proliferation of chicken stuff here - the Nashville hot chicken. Truly, everywhere you go, there's hot chicken and there's tenders. The driving force of Nashville is chicken tenders.CorinneSounds like heaven.VirginiaBurnt Toast retreat in Nashville?? We just eat chicken tenders for three days? Start planning it now. That sounds great. Favorite thing you wore recently, and what makes it your favorite?Kim  Let's talk about jeans. I don't know what we're supposed to be wearing anymore. I am still comfortable in skinny jeans. VirginiaIt's okay. This is a jeans safe space.KimI'm locked and loaded in those high-rise, skinny jeans. But that is not what we're supposed to be wearing anymore.Virginia  They're real mad at us for still wanting to wear them.Kim  Let me tell you what the people I work with wear. It looks like I work with the Insane Clown Posse. They are wearing jeans so big and baggy it blows my mind. So I thought, Let me try. I bought a pair of - everything comes from Big Undies - I bought these Old Navy barrel jeans and I feel nuts in them. But I wore them to work and everyone was like, That's what you're supposed to look like! I've never been more uncomfortable in my life than when I wear these jeans. Corinne  You realize you're going to have to send us photos, right? We're going to be texting your co-workers to take secret photos of you. KimOh, my God.Virginia  We're going to need a photo.Kim  I went to a museum recently and wore those Old Navy barrel jeans - light wash, I will add - very uncomfortable.Virginia  You went right into the deep end of that swimming pool.Kim  I went in. And then I have this Universal Standard shirtdress. They have them in white and black. It's just a button up, floor length thing. I wore that, obviously unbuttoned from the waist down, and then I have those Crocs Dylan platform clogs.Corinne  My God, this is very chic outfit. KimI have the ones that are like clown shoes.CorinneThey're platform Crocs. Kim  I wore that to the museum and I think it's the coolest I've ever looked, but it's the most uncomfortable I've ever been in my life.Virginia  So cool though.Corinne  Dying to see it. KimIt's my only outfit. Everything else is workout clothes.Virginia  You have one outfit. You're set. I mean, jeans are a whole conversation. That silhouette and changing from how we've been programmed, I feel you. But even wearing something where you're like, I know this is cool, but it feels so different from what I like. The way the trends have changed. I do feel like that is one of the oddest things about getting older - suddenly realizing the clothes are so unfamiliar. Corinne is the baby of the podcast, so she might not be able to relate to that.Corinne  Kim, how old are you?KimI'm 49. I turn 50 this year.Virginia  Ooh, exciting. When's your birthday? KimIt’s a whole thing. I'm working through it.Corinne  Wait, what if you guys have the same birthday?Kim  I'm May 20. VirginiaI'm April 30. KimOh, you're an April Taurus.Virginia  And that means a thing?I feel that it is a whole thing about clothes. You're just like, It's making less and less sense. I'm trying, but I don't know.Kim  It's hard. I think we're just supposed to feel stupid.Corinne  Well, not to change the subject, but how do you feel about brownies? Are you an edge, corner or center of the pan person? KimCenter. I can't deal with the edges.Virginia  Same. KimIt needs to all be the same texture.Virginia  You've got to pair up with your edge people so that you can get the brownies you want.Corinne  Following up that groundbreaking question, peanut butter in the fridge or pantry?Kim  Pantry. I didn't know anyone put it in the fridge. But during the storm, we stayed at a hotel for eight days, and then we moved into someone's empty house, and they had their peanut butter in the fridge. I was like, are we supposed to be doing this?Virginia  Yes, that's what the Lord intended. I am.Corinne  I am also a fridge peanut butter person.KimAre you supposed to?Virginia  Not from a food safety perspective, but it spiritually feels correct to me. It feels like it should be cold. I threw this in here because it was a recent poll on Burnt Toast and the people were against me on this. CorinneOh, wow. VirginiaWhen my boyfriend moved in, he was like, Why is the peanut butter in the fridge? What's happening? You're insane. And I was like, well, let's check with the public, assuming that my Burnt Toasties would rally around me. Instead they were all like, What are you doing? Corinne  The only open stuff in my pantry is crackers and cookies. Open stuff goes in the fridge. VirginiaIf it has a lid, it needs to be cold.KimBut what about hot sauce?CorinneFridge.Virginia  Yeah, in the fridge.KimWe do, too. But I have started to think i'm not supposed to because, at restaurants, it's just on the table. CorinneThis is true. Virginia  You have a good point. I'm not saying it's correct, but I'm saying it's correct. Another favorite Burnt Toast question that a reader submitted that we think is very fun to ask people is, which liquids would you want shooting out of your fingers? If you could have fingers that shoot liquids.Corinne  Each finger can be a separate liquid.Virginia  But also, if you don't want to think of five, it's fine. If you're like, I just want a Coke finger. That's all I need.Corinne  It could also be a liquid that's not something you drink.Kim  Like what?CorinneGasoline. That's my new best answer. I would want gas to be able to shoot out of my finger.Kim  I did just had to buy a generator. I hope this episode doesn't give me PTSD when I listen to it in a month and remember how traumatized I am from the storm. I'll be like, Why did I keep mentioning generators and hotels? Ok, I think it would be iced coffee, like a cold brew; Pamplemousse La Croix; honestly, orange juice. Love orange juice. Love an acid. That's it. Those are my three. I'm not a soft drink person.Corinne  Well, are you an electrolyte person?Kim  Oh, my God. I've been dying to talk to you about this. No, they're fake science, Corinne.Corinne  Well, fake science works for me.KimNo, I'm not. I used to be.Corinne  Talk to me when you come to high elevation.Kim  You know what? Honestly, that's fair. I have been in your part of the country a lot the last few years. We have to go to L.A. a few times a year. During COVID we couldn't fly, so we started driving, and now we are obsessed with driving cross-country.Corinne  Oh, wow. We really should talk.Kim  I didn't know you yet, but the last time we were in Albuquerque I told Virginia I wanted your phone number to ask you where to get a breakfast burrito. CorinneOh, my God! Yeah, you should have!Virginia  Corinne always has that intel.Kim  But no, the high altitude, that's legit.Virginia  I'm excited to have another electrolyte skeptic in the podcast. That's going to be helpful for me.Virginia  The beverage I will never be needing less of is Diet Coke. Are you pro or con Diet Coke, and if you are not pro Diet Coke, what do you drink?Kim  I'm pro Diet Coke, especially with pizza. I drink one on the days I'm at the bookstore. I just need one halfway through to keep going. I do love Diet Coke. I just wake up and drink coffee. That's typically it for the day, but if I'm out to eat or if I'm at work, I drink a Diet Coke. VirginiaYeah, it's a nice little treat.Corinne  I just learned that there's a difference between Diet Coke and Coke Zero.Virginia  Obviously! There's a huge difference!CorinneBut what is it? No one can really articulate it.VirginiaThe taste.Corinne  But why are they making two zero calorie Cokes?Virginia  Diet culture.Kim  I think it's gender. I think they think women want Diet Coke and men do not.Virginia  Men are drinking a manly Coke Zero? That doesn’t sound more masculine.Corinne  But what is the difference? Is it different sweeteners?Virginia  I am Googling it to get to the bottom of this. "Coke Zero aims to replicate the classic Coke taste using a blend of aspartame and acesulfame potassium." Diet Coke uses only aspartame.Corinne  So it is the sweeteners. They both have caffeine?Virginia  They both have caffeine. They both are calorie-free and sugar-free. Diet Coke is where you want to go for that pure aspartame hit, which is what I'm looking for. Corinne  Speaking of Diet Coke, any other diet-y foods or habits that you've reclaimed?Kim  Recently, I've started eating Uncrustables, which I hadn't had for a long time. When I was doing Iron Man training, that was what you'd take on a long bike ride. So I've associated that with needing to refuel during workouts. But I've started eating them again.Virginia  They're so good. A great purse snack. I like to have one for errand running.Kim  I've also started doing that. I just throw them in there. They're great because the purse thaws it out.Virginia  Yes, exactly. I put it between my sunglasses case and my wallet. It gets nice and toasty.Kim  And honestly? Yogurt. I quit eating yogurt for a long time, but it turns out you can have yogurt for fun.CorinneYogurt is good.Virginia  Especially if you can have the full fat yogurt.KimOh, my God. Game changer. I bought it on accident because they were out of the one I buy. I was like, Oh, it never occurred to me to switch.Virginia  The one thing RFK, Jr. and I agree on is full fat yogurt. The one overlap in our otherwise completely disparate Venn diagram circles.KimThat disgusting, broken clock of a man.Virginia  Any diet-y foods or habits that you'll never touch again that you're like, Nope, that ship has sailed?Kim   Turkey bacon and turkey sausage. VirginiaLet that go. Just, why?KimI'm just going to eat pork if I'm going to eat pork. Oh, Lean Cuisine. Never bringing that back. All kinds of snacks. I could never eat a pretzel again for the rest of my life.Corinne  Oh, wow. I love pretzels.Kim  Or unbuttered popcorn. All those zero point foods.Virginia  The ones that I hear people fully reclaim are cottage cheese, but again, pivoting to full fat cottage cheese. Rice cakes surprisingly have a lot of devotees. That's one where I'm like, No thanks. People like the crunch. I don't know.Kim  The exercise stuff I remember more. All of that has just gone away. Corinne  Never going to do another Iron Man? KimNo, I am not. I just take little walks.Virginia  So much better.Corinne  Do you have any current favorite TV shows?Kim  Oh, my God. My favorite topic is television!I am watching The Wire for the first time. I watched season one and I'm obsessed with it. I'm going to start season two as soon as I have internet in my house again. I am a middle-aged white woman, so I love RuPaul's Drag Race. I am its main demographic. I'm watching that right now. There's a new season. And I'm watching The Pitt.Virginia  I can't watch The Pitt because of medical trauma, but I do think I would like it. I need a website that gives me spoilers, so I can pick and choose which episodes, then I can do it.Corinne  Our last question is what are you reading right now?Kim  Ooh, I'm reading Lindy West's next memoir that's about to come out in March. It's called Adult Braces.Virginia  🎉 Spoiler, but Kim did get Lindy to come on the pod soon. So get excited, folks!Kim  I've read all of her books. I think this is her fourth book and second memoir. Man, it's blowing me away. I love her writing, and this is beyond anything she's written before, not to disparage her other books, but this is a whole new level of vulnerability. It's so good. I'm reading Heated Rivalry, also. CorinneOh, fun!Virginia  I have both of those on tap to start as soon as I finish what I'm reading right now. I can't wait to read Lindy, and I can't wait to read the Heated Rivalry books, which I ordered from your friend's bookstore, Tropes & Trifles. Kim  That's awesome. My friend Lauren owns that bookstore. She's great. Her bookstore is great.Virginia  It felt like a really good way to support Minnesota, and also my own need for more gay hockey after Corinne got me into Heated Rivalry.Corinne  Finally! It took so long. Virginia  It did. People were so mad.KimIt took longer than it needed to.VirginiaI know. I just missed it somehow. And then I was like, Okay, I'm here. I get it.Kim  I'm in a romance group chat. One of the people in the group chat is Lauren, who owns Tropes & Trifles. The first episode hit HBO, the group chat lit up. They all just said, "All of you, watch it now."Virginia  Like, just stop what you’re doing.KimWe have to talk about this collectively. So I watched it in real time. It was a mandate.CorinneAmazing.VirginiaDelightful.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterVirginia  Well, this was so fun. I'm glad we got to chat with you more. Before we wrap up, of course, we have to get you to give us some butter. What do you have for us?(Editor's note: my mind went blank, so we skipped to Corinne and then came back to me.)Corinne  I'm going to recommend a book that I'm reading right now and really enjoying. It's called Long Bright River, and it's by Liz Moore, who wrote God Of the Woods that a lot of people read last year. I've been listening to the audiobook version and it's great. It's kind of a detective/crime situation, but there's a lot of twists and turns, and finding out things about the main character that you didn't know at the beginning. I'm really enjoying it. I'm also not quite done, so if something crazy happens at the end, don't blame me. I think I have only an hour left, so I feel pretty confident recommending it.KimDo you know it's a TV show, too?Corinne  Oh no, I didn't, but that makes so much sense. I was listening to it and thinking it would make a great show. What is the show?Kim  Same name. It has Amanda Seyfried in it.VirginiaOh, I love her. KimIt's a great cast. It's actually a great show.Corinne  I'll have to check that out.Virginia  I love that book. Kim, do you want to go next?Kim  My butter is boba. I somehow had never had it even though there are great places all over Nashville that have it. But back to chicken tenders, near the place I live now, there's a little strip mall and it has a chicken tenders restaurant and a boba place. They're the only two things there. I went over there and they were so nice. They had me taste a bunch of stuff and they made me an iced coffee boba with a brown sugar top off. I'm obsessed with it. Anytime I'm there - it's actually across the street from where I am right now. Will I get one today? Yes, I will.Virginia  I think you need one after our morning.Kim  Why did I wait so long for boba? It's so fun and delicious.Virginia  I have to confess, I don't think I've ever had it.Corinne  This reminds me that there's an amazing TikTok of some guy trying boba for the first time. Virginia  I will endorse an item of clothing. It's fast fashion, which we know makes for a problematic butter, but I know I'm going to stand by this one because it is the third time I've bought this cardigan. It is the pranayama wrap from Athleta. I wear the 2x. It's roomy on me, but it only goes up to 3x. It's not a super size inclusive brand, but Corinne just said she doesn't care.Corinne  I never said that. I feel like a wrap is a flexibly sized item of clothing.Virginia  I agree. Athleta is a brand that frequently makes me mad because Old Navy is making plus sizes. You're the same company. The same as with Gap! I am at the point in winter where my perimenopausal self is cold and hot at the same time, and I can't wear my sweaters because I'm so sweaty. It's a real thing. You just get to a point where your sweaters are too warm, but it's still cold, and what are you going to wear?I've been getting more into the sweatshirt space, but even some of them are too heavy. This wrap is a really good one. It's lightweight, but it's warm, and it comes in different colors. I got this purplish-blue color on sale and I'm living in it. My butter is a layer that you can actually be warm, but not die in.CorinneAmazing.KimI support that. Virginia  Thank you, but I do acknowledge that it is not a great brand, and I would like them to make larger sizes. Kim, this was a delight! Tell folks where they can follow you, at your website and the name you don't like.Kim  The Blonde Mule everywhere is me. As I mentioned, I bought that name.Virginia  She owns it.Kim It’s easy to find me. TheBlondeMule.com is my newsletter where I write about books and pop culture. When I've got the bandwidth, I write essays. And then @TheBlondeMule on all the platforms.Virginia  You'll also find her in the Burnt Toast comments and Big Undies comments. And know that she is working a lot of magic behind the scenes here. You'll probably hear from her more every now and then, as well. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Thanks for listening to Burnt Toast. If you enjoyed the conversation, please support our work with a paid subscription. They start at just $5 a month, and you'll keep Burnt Toast an ad and sponsor free space. Learn more at https://www.patreon.com/virginiasolesmith/join.Make sure you are following us for free in your podcast player. Scroll down wherever you're listening, tap the stars, five of them please, and leave us a review. That really helps us grow and helps new listeners find conversations like these.The Burnt Toast Podcast is hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. You can follow Virginia on Instagram at @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.bsky.social. You can follow Corinne on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay.bsky.social and on Patreon at Big Undies.This podcast is produced by Kim Baldwin. You can follow Kim at @theblondemule on all platforms and subscribe to her newsletter at The Blonde Mule.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it's time for your February Extra Butter episode! Listen to hear about:⭐️ Anti-diet GLP-1 life⭐️ Who gets left out when the tradwife aesthetic takes over influencer culture⭐️ Interrogating the ableism of not wanting to be on medication your whole lifePlus, serious stuff, like:⭐️ Corinne in a prairie dress⭐️ How long Virginia will last in a zombie apocalypse ⭐️ Why hot cheese is in for FebruaryTo hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber.Join Extra Butter!This transcript contains affiliate links. If you're going to buy something we mention, shopping these links supports Burnt Toast at no extra cost to you! Episode 232 TranscriptCorinneToday we are talking about the state of GLP-1 discourse. A few recent media pieces have us wondering if the GLP-1 backlash is finally beginning, and if so, why is all of the coverage still so anti-fat?VirginiaWe're going to use two primary texts for this conversation, but I also want us to talk more generally about how we're seeing the conversation shift, because I feel like there's been an amorphous shift.CorinneI think the initial craze has died down and we're starting to see a more nuanced conversation.VirginiaWhich in many ways is good. There's more nuance on both sides, but there's still a lot of harm being done in the way the media is framing this conversation.CorinneFor sure. VirginiaExhibit A on that front is a piece by Dani Blum that ran on January 15 in the New York Times. The headline is The Hard Truth of Weight-Loss Drugs: You Probably Need Them Forever. Corinne what is your immediate first reaction to that headline?CorinneNo shit, Sherlock. Why were people confused about this?VirginiaI guess people were. It seemed obvious that if a drug makes you lose weight, and you go off the drug, you won't continue to lose the weight.CorinneUnfortunately, except for maybe antibiotics, that seems to be how drugs work. You have to stay on them.VirginiaThere's a lot that comes up for me in this piece. It's looking at new research, bringing to light the fact that when people go off the weight loss drugs, which many people do because they can't tolerate the side effects and it's too expensive, they just get tired of it. There are lots of reasons that people fatigue about being on a weekly injection drug. They're seeing now that people regain the weight. This is being framed as a grave disappointment and a surprise in the article.CorinneNot to me, but to Oprah.VirginiaOprah particularly. Oprah was surprised. They referenced the fact that even Oprah said that she had stopped taking a weight loss drug cold-turkey for a year and then gained back 20 pounds. "I tried to beat the medication," she told People Magazine. It was then she realized it's going to be a lifetime thing. Brilliant marketing for Weight Watchers, Oprah. She thought she could go off it, but you can't. You should be on it forever. So buy your GLP-1s from Weight Watchers. Of course she wants us to be on it forever. She has a business incentive to make that work. It gets into ableism. Why is it problematic to be on a medication for the rest of your life? I have asthma. I expect to use an inhaler to manage that for the rest of my life. I have sleep apnea. I expect to use a CPAP for the rest of my life. Most people with mental health conditions expect to be on an SSRI for the rest of their life. Why is that a problem?CorinneI think there's something about human nature where people think, I don't want to be on a medication for the rest of my life. I've heard so many people say that.VirginiaOften it's the main resistance to starting a medication. Why? What is it about that that makes us sad?CorinneWe want to believe that we're strong and independent and don't need pills to make us ok.VirginiaYou and I are going to wear glasses for the rest of our lives.CorinneI am extremely screwed. So many medications, so many glasses.VirginiaIf the zombie apocalypse comes, I'm out in the first week because if they break my glasses or I lose an inhaler, I'm sorry, I'm not going to try that hard to survive. Even my acid reflux medication - I don't have debilitating acid reflux - but it's irritating. I would be out.CorinneSame. VirginiaTake me now. CorinneI take multiple medications every single day that I would be lost, if not dead, without.VirginiaI don't understand the aversion to that because it's great that I get to breathe through the help of medication. I'm a big fan.CorinneI think what you're hinting at is it's ableism.VirginiaIt's ableism. We want to believe we can overcome these challenges. We see it especially in conditions that are weight linked in any way. This is why people get told to diet before starting a blood pressure or cholesterol medication when those drugs work really well to manage those conditions ... Corinne... and diets don't.VirginiaAnd diets tend to not do so. Is it such a moral failing to have to go on a statin? I don't think so.CorinneThe other thing they're not talking about directly is - and we've talked about this before - that studies show people who take these drugs for conditions like diabetes and/or insulin resistance, don't tend to stay on them long-term because they're hard drugs to be on. VirginiaYeah.CorinneThis article is so sad for people who got to lose weight on these because they will have to be on them forever if they want to "keep the weight off." It's also sad for people who need to take them to manage chronic conditions. These drugs suck in a lot of ways and people don't want to be on them.VirginiaThat's a valid reason to think, I don't want to be on a drug for the rest of my life if it's giving me terrible side effects. My inhalers don't give me terrible side effects. I just like breathing and want to do it all the time. I’m an oxygen addict. If it's a medication that's giving you side effects, I understand not wanting to be on it for life. For folks who are pursuing this just for weight loss, independent of metabolic health, maybe that's a reason to reflect on whether you need to do that. It is a depressing thing to say, "I will be on a medication that gives me diarrhea, fatigue or whatever side effects, but at least I can be a smaller size." That feels like something to reflect on. That reflection is nowhere in this article, however.CorinneThe article doesn't mention side effects at all, does it? VirginiaIt mentions that it's why a lot of people in the studies are going off the drugs. It's this Catch-22 where they're saying, Oh, people are saying, wow, it's so expensive, or, wow, I have terrible side effects, so I go off it. Then they're framing it like those people were quitters. That they gave up. On the other hand, some of this aversion around "you wouldn't want to be on this medication for the rest of your life" is another layer of anti-fatness. The message is we shouldn't let fat people get away with thinness this way. We don't want them passing for thin because they can stay on a GLP-1 forever. We want them to do the "real work" of weight loss.The idea that you could only achieve weight loss by staying on the medication forever makes the weight loss feel fake to people. It's interesting because all intentional weight loss is fake to some extent. It's all manipulating your body in a direction it doesn't naturally want to go in. So why do we penalize medication-based weight loss versus excessive-running-based weight loss?There's also a nice shout-out to RFK, Jr., who also thought the drugs would just be a short-term fix for people and then we'd go back to eating beef tallow to stay thin. Turns out that's not science, but I don't think we're surprised he's not science. Another flavor of anti-fatness in this piece is the casual normalization that you could do this the old fashioned way. In talking about folks who are able to lose the weight even after they go off, the article says:It's not impossible, but it is extremely difficult. Dr Hauser estimates that fewer than 10% of her patients have successfully kept off 75% or more of the weight they lost after going on a GLP-1 without turning to another weight loss medication or undergoing bariatric surgery. "Those are the people that are working out two hours a day, tracking what they eat. They're working really hard," she said. "I haven't had anyone that just tapers off and isn't really putting that much thought into it and just keeps the weight off. I've never seen that happen."That's just casual normalization of eating disorder behavior. Working out two hours a day and tracking what you eat is not a normal way to live.CorinneThe choice is either drugs or an eating disorder.VirginiaThat's not interrogated by this piece, or in any of the discourse I've seen around the whole idea that you have to be on it forever. It's either you have to be on it forever, or we expect you to do this the old fashioned way, like a good fat person would.CorinneIt's also getting into the Rosey Beeme of it all. She lost some weight with a GLP-1 and then was like, Well, I guess weight loss surgery is the way to go here.VirginiaRight, to continue her health journey. I haven't checked on her in a while. Do you know how that's all going?CorinneNo, I don't and I don't honestly want to know. I just think that will become a more common storyline where people are saying, I didn't want to stay on this drug. It didn't lead to permanent weight loss, but maybe bariatric surgery will.VirginiaWell, that's depressing.CorinneSpeaking of influencers, the second article that we wanted to discuss today ran at the beginning of January in Vulture. It's titled ‘Less People Click If You’re a Size 16’ How plus-size influencers are faring in a GLP-1 world.VirginiaThis one is paywalled. CorinneI'm glad we're talking about this article because I saw so many people whispering about it on social media before I saw it, and then I saw a lot of folks sharing it. The gist of it is that plus-size influencers are not making as much money as before. They're not getting as many brand deals, etc.VirginiaThey're not getting brand deals from fashion brands and other lifestyle brands, which was interesting to me. The plus-size mom influencers, brands don't want them to show the car seat or the stroller anymore.CorinneI think a lot of plus-size influencers would make money from beauty skincare deals. That seems to be where a lot of the marketing money is. Even that area is slowing.VirginiaThe article talks about how one explanation, in addition to the rise of GLP-1s, is the rise of the tradwife aesthetic. An influencer named Joanna Spicer is interviewed quite a bit in the piece. She says:People in the industry, according to Spicer, are “afraid to say anything. It’s being danced around. I’ve been told that I don’t fit the criteria to work with the brand because they’re more into the tradwife aesthetic. I’m like, ‘Got it.’”With the tradwife aesthetic, a baseline of thin is a given, right? They're all willowy thin blondes like Ballerina Farm. It's interesting that it's not just thin, but the whole Little House On the Prairie conservative fundamentalist perspective. That’s what is trending right now. CorinneIt's very depressing. I like Joanna Spicer and that is not her aesthetic. There are plus-size influencers that lean more in that direction who are also suffering.VirginiaBecause they're not leaning enough in that direction.CorinneThey're not living on farms in Utah. I also thought an interesting part of this was her saying that it's being danced around, that no one's straight up saying what's going on.VirginiaOn the flip side, we've also seen (and reported on) a lot of plus-size influencers becoming not plus-size, or attempting to become not plus-size by sharing their GLP-1 journey. While we've had valid criticisms of the way Rosey Beeme and others have articulated those journeys by using a lot of anti-fat rhetoric, I do understand that when you've made your body your business, and now the business is changing, you feel a lot of pressure to change your body to keep up with things.CorinneThis article doesn't mention it, but there have been a couple of brands recently announcing they're not going to make plus sizes anymore, one of which is Christy Dawn, which is a big tradwife aesthetic brand.VirginiaI never did get a Christy Dawn prairie dress while they made them in my size. Now I guess I never will.CorinneI did try one once. It's really not my aesthetic, but it didn't seem nice.VirginiaI kind of wish you had photos. I really can't picture you in a tradwife dress.CorinneI put it on and was horrified.VirginiaYou had a reaction to that like I have to those boiler suit jumpsuits where I feel trapped, have a panic attack and I can't get them off.CorinneThere was too much shoulder. I didn't like it.VirginiaIt's the whole milkmaid thing.CorinneI like my shoulders covered.VirginiaYeah, not your aesthetic. All of this tradwife aesthetic taking over influencer culture and who's getting brand deals also very much ties into how much this is driven by the political climate right now, which is obviously a dumpster fire. Here is another excerpt from the piece:One vice president and an influencer marketing agency who asked to remain anonymous, said that while they haven't seen brands explicitly push back against working with plus-size creators. They are far more hesitant to sponsor any creator who gets even remotely political. What is acceptable now politically may not be in the future, and to avoid any issues, they don't want any voices that are not controlled internally from their side, he said.That made me wonder if fat influencers are more likely to be left wing and progressive than thin influencers. We don't have any data, but my instinct is yes.CorinneThey're probably more likely to be outspoken about size inclusivity, at least.VirginiaPeople think fat liberation is not political or it's not considered part of political action, and it is part of it. They also wrote:"The trend to move away from plus-size clothing aligns with the trend to move away from DEI. It’s all related,” says Monica Corbin, a stylist at a plus-size fashion brand. “We had this big explosion during COVID around inclusivity, and I just think there’s been the biggest backlash."So what's happening in influencer culture is just a microcosm of our whole country right now?CorinneThere is a part of this article that was so sad. Joanna Spicer was talking about how not being able to get work in your area of expertise makes you feel like a loser. That it's demoralizing and you feel like you've done something wrong. And you don't want to speak out about it because you don't want to screw yourself over in the future. It sounds so isolating.VirginiaThere's often a lot of pressure on influencers not to be transparent about the business model and the money, which is something we see in almost every female dominated industry. Anytime you have an industry that's majority women, people tend to be underpaid and you're encouraged not to talk about money, which is why all of my writer friends know I am extremely transparent about money. Because I feel like this is how any of us make any. It doesn't surprise me that people were so hesitant to go on record for this story because they think they have so much to risk if they say these brands are paying them less. But it also enrages me because these brands are treating you terribly. How else do we put pressure on them to do something different and make different choices?CorinneI don't know, but it's scary to do that now, especially when it feels like there's fear of political retaliation.VirginiaMaybe this is me grasping at a strand of hope, but I do wonder if the fact that Vulture did this story is a positive sign. Will this kind of media coverage put pressure on brands to be more inclusive again? You could read this piece and think, What is Virginia talking about? There's no GLP-1 backlash. The fact that the piece exists feels like a tiny bit of backlash. Or am I just grasping?CorinneWe'll see. It's probably going to take eight years, but I think at least some of the shine is off.VirginiaIt's hard to say that we're definitively in a backlash, or in a moment of change. I don't think we are. I think we are in a moment of increased nuance, and that's where we've landed. There's value in that. There's value in the conversations becoming more nuanced. The last piece we wanted to talk about was Amanda Richard's recent essay about her own experience taking GLP-1s and her take on where we are in this moment. It's called The return of thinness, without the reckoning. What are your thoughts on this piece?CorinneI thought it was really interesting. I read it this morning and haven't fully digested it. The most interesting part to me was this part near the end where she says:What this moment reveals isn't hypocrisy, it's preference, preference for ease over effort, relief over reckoning, for changing bodies instead of changing the rules that they're judged by. Fat acceptance faltered not because it was wrong, but because it asked more of people than a weight loss transformation ever could.She's getting at this moment in culture where people have lower tolerance than ever for friction. We want everything to be as easy as possible, myself included. That's not always what's best for the world, or even ourselves.VirginiaShe's arguing that we're not in a backlash, but that the rise of GLP-1s has legitimized the pursuit of thinness in new ways. She wrote:What's changed isn't the desire to be thin, but the way that desire is explained. It no longer has to pass through shame, discipline or denial, instead arriving framed as care, responsibility and common sense. we've had moral alibis for thinness before diets, program, supplements, lifestyle changes, but they were always imperfect because they still smelled like wanting. They required visible discipline. They demanded effort. They asked people to accept failure when their bodies didn't cooperate. Medicine is a better alibi.I thought that was pretty dead on.CorinneThat's interesting, although we had health as an alibi before.VirginiaWe definitely did. But she's right that making it something that doctors prescribe, that you have to do, and you have to do in very specific ways in order to adhere correctly to it, does feel different from when doctors say, Try to lose some weight and, you know, walk more. It's vague and nebulous and pushes people over to diet culture.Because you're accessing it through consumerism it feels more like something you want, like a choice you're making. There's aesthetic components. I'm doing this celebrity’s plan, you know. It feels legitimate now that you're doing it as a responsible choice for yourself because a doctor prescribed it. It's not to say that the medical choices people are making to do these drugs are always wrong, or that it's a bad choice for everybody. Again, it's a great medication for managing diabetes. Because all of the research dollars in the world go towards these drugs, they are discovering other new benefits of them, and that's great if we don't want people to not have those benefits. CorinneWe didn't mention that the whole premise of the piece is that she's taking a GLP-1 for a condition, and it has helped tremendously.VirginiaShe's had some weight loss as a side effect, but that wasn't the primary goal. Fat acceptance needs to keep making more space for those stories and that reality. That is why we added the Anti-Diet Ozempic Life chat room on Burnt Toast, because I was hearing from readers ashamed and confessing to me that they were on a GLP-1 and not having a place to talk about how to do that with integrity and in alignment with their fat liberation values. I was thought, Well, we're doing something wrong if we're making people feel bad about their own individual choices. That's what the other guys do. That's not what we're about. The conversations there have been fascinating and super instructive to me. I've learned a lot. Everybody who's navigating this, if you've identified that fat liberation is one of your values, you have a responsibility to interrogate this thing that Amanda's articulating, how much of this is a moral alibi for thinness, and what does that mean if you're using medicine as your alibi to achieve thinness because of all the other reasons that thinness is valued.CorinneAlthough, in our culture, how can you not? There's always some element of "Being thin is good? Being thinner Is better?"VirginiaBeing prettier? I'll have better access to things. I don't think wanting that for yourself is "wrong" because how could you not want it?CorinneIt's the water we're swimming in. It's hard to make a neutral choice.VirginiaThere is no neutral choice. Articulating that tension to yourself is valuable versus just dressing it up in "I am doing this for x, y and z health reason. I don't care about being thin." Let's be honest. Of course we all care about that a little bit. We're in an interesting place with this stuff. I'm curious to hear what folks think. How you resonated with these articles and what else you're seeing in the discourse. I am glad for the increasing nuance and I wish mainstream media could spot its anti-fat bias even sometimes.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterCorinneDo you have a butter for us?VirginiaI have a very fun butter. My butter is that I just wallpapered my living room and I'm so excited. It's so pretty. CorinneOh, my God, it's beautiful!VirginiaIsn't it such a pretty wallpaper?CorinneWow. Where did you find that?VirginiaIt's a Graham & Brown wallpaper called Wallflower (affiliate link) from Wallpaper Direct. One of my home design influencer loves is Elsie Larson and she used this wallpaper in her house. I pinned it years and years ago. I thought I was not a wallpaper person and not a bold wall person. I've had white walls in all my homes forever because I change my mind a lot about color. I love color, but I like to be able to change things up. But this particular room does not get a lot of natural light. It often feels kind of gloomy and white walls were actually making it feel gloomier. So I'm here to say, if you have a room without good natural light, go for some bold, saturated color, or a wallpaper that feels like it's going to make it darker, but it's actually going to make the room come alive.CorinneWow, I love that. It's really pretty. It's like dark green background with pink and orange flowers on it.VirginiaIt feels like an English garden, which is all I ever want in the world, especially right now when my actual garden is under, I don't know, 14 inches of snow and ice. Being able to sit in my pretty, green, flowery living room is really helping my seasonal anxiety quite a lot. That's my butter. Put some pretty color on your walls.CorinneMy butter is non-specific today, but I really want to recommend that anyone listening to this right now who needs something in their life goes and gets some queso.I celebrated my birthday recently. I had some friends over for dinner and we got two different kinds of queso. It was so tasty, although the next day I did feel like I had a block of cheese in my stomach.VirginiaThere's always a little dice you roll with queso.CorinneIt was fun to just stand around and dunk chips into hot cheese.VirginiaYou said there were two different kinds of queso. Say more, please.CorinneI live in New Mexico, and here we have our own specific culture, including our own specific type of food called New Mexican food. New Mexican queso is kind of liquidy. Don't think about what's in it. It's melted cheese and it usually has green chile in it. It's a little spicy and it comes with a bunch of chips. There's also Mexican food here, and I'm not a Mexican food expert, but Mexican restaurants have something called queso fundido, which is just straight up melted cheese. VirginiaNo chile?CorinneNo, and it's not going to be like liquid. It's the texture of melted cheese.VirginiaLike if you scraped cheese off of pizza.CorinneSometimes you can get toppings on it, so we had both New Mexican chile con queso and Mexican queso fundido.VirginiaOh, my God! Those both sound magical. Hot cheese sounds like something delicious we should all be eating.CorinneHot cheese is in for February. VirginiaFor February, be cozy in brightly colored rooms with hot cheese. What more do we need? There's weeks to go before the sun returns.CorinneWho needs sunshine when you have queso and wallpaper?VirginiaTruly.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Make sure you are following us in your podcast player. Scroll down wherever you're listening, tap the stars, five of them please, and leave us a review. That really helps us grow and helps new listeners find conversations like these.Today's Indulgence Gospel is hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. You can follow Virginia on Instagram at @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.bsky.social. You can follow Corinne on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay.bsky.social and on Patreon at Big Undies.This podcast is produced by Kim Baldwin. You can follow Kim at @theblondemule on all platforms and subscribe to her newsletter at The Blonde Mule.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You're listening to Burnt Toast. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith. Today my conversation is with Dr. Lauren Muhlheim. Lauren is a psychologist, a fellow of the Academy for Eating Disorders, a certified eating disorder specialist and approved consultant for the International Association of Eating Disorder Professionals. She's also a Certified Body Trust Provider and directs Eating Disorder Therapy LA, a group practice in Los Angeles. Lauren is the author of When Your Teen Has an Eating Disorder and a co-author of the brand new The Weight-Inclusive CBT Workbook for Eating Disorders. Lauren joined me to chat about how she and her colleagues have been working to make eating disorder treatment less fatphobic, because, yes, that really needed to happen. We also get into why it's feeling harder than ever to treat eating disorders, or live with one, in this era of RFK, Jr., MAHA and GLP-1s. Plus what to do if your child is hiding food, lying or otherwise showing signs of developing an eating disorder. When do you intervene? And how do you do so in the most supportive way possible?If you enjoy this conversation, a paid subscriiption is the best way to support our work!Join Burnt Toast🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 231 TranscriptVirginiaI am really delighted. We have been, I guess I would say, colleagues in this space, or comrades in this space, for a long time.LaurenComrades, for sure. VirginiaI've interviewed you for articles over the years. We're both in the fat activism world in various ways. You're someone I learn so much from. I'm very excited to have you here today. We are going to talk about your new workbook that comes out this month, called The Weight-Inclusive CBT Workbook for Eating Disorders. Do you want to give us a little background on how this workbook came to be? Then we're going to dive into my list of questions.LaurenI should introduce CBT for eating disorders. CBT stands for cognitive behavioral therapy for eating disorders, which is one of the leading treatments. I was trained in it back in the 1990s by one of the two main researchers who's credited with developing the treatment. Cognitive behavioral therapy looks at what's maintaining a problem in the present. It looks at the relationship between thoughts, behaviors and feelings, and helps to sort out ways to solve problematic behaviors related to eating. Fast forward to present day, we've learned a lot more about eating disorders than back in the '90s when I was trained in the model. When I was trained, it was very weight-centric, focused on primarily low weight and "normal weight." You know, thin-ish white women, and that's who was largely studied. But now we know so much more - that eating disorders affect all people, all genders, all ethnicities and all body sizes. As I've evolved as a clinician over the last 20 years, I've really become influenced by the weight inclusive movement, Health At Every Size and listening to people with lived experience who have experienced harm from traditional weight-centric treatments. So I have evolved. And in my mind I had modified what I was doing, and when I went back to look at the manuals, I was horrified to remember what was still in there that was really weight-centric. This has been a passion project for the last eight years. I've collaborated and talked to different people about it. I ultimately teamed up with two colleagues who were as passionate as I am, and we came up with the idea of modifying CBT to be weight inclusive. We coined CBTWI to be weight inclusive, and we took the 30 year old manuals and updated them to be relevant to today and to speak to people in all size bodies. A lot of people come to us in bigger bodies and the old manuals were so harmful. You know, focusing on about being the right weight and other elements that were just not conducive to people in larger bodies when they go through this work.VirginiaCan you give a specific example? For folks who've never been in eating disorder treatment, or just don't know the world well, it's like, 'What do you mean eating disorder treatments are not weight inclusive? Isn't that where you go to feel better about your body?' Give an example of what CBT used to do that was harmful, and how you've updated it.LaurenWhen I was trained in CBT, I always thought it was a non-diet approach, because the focus is on regular eating and including all foods. So the center of the model is still good. But some of the fatphobic elements that were in the original treatment were - one was this insistence on regular weekly weighing and the client knowing their weight. And that if the therapist refused to weigh the client weekly, it was the therapist's own anxiety and avoidance of tolerating the client's distress over being weighed. But if you're in a bigger body, being weighed is more than just exposure. It can be traumatic. VirginiaYeah. LaurenWe don't need to put people through that, where every week they see their weight. So that's one of the first things that we eliminated. The other thing, there's behavioral experiments with a focus on challenging what they call the broken cognition. The broken cognition is this belief, and again, this was developed on primarily thin, white women who had the belief that if 'I eat a cupcake, I'll gain five pounds.' The behavioral experiment was to have them eat a cupcake, weigh them before and weigh them the following week, and prove that they didn't gain five pounds, but that's also hugely fatphobic. Because you're trying to prove to people that it's all in their heads, that weight stigma is not a thing.VirginiaWell, and you're saying, 'Look, the scary, terrible thing didn't happen.'LaurenWhich reinforces that that's the scariest thing.VirginiaEven what you're saying, weighing folks in bigger bodies can be traumatic, not because inherently it's bad to be in a bigger body, but because if you're in a bigger body and you've been weighed in medical settings, you've had that number weaponized against you for so long. That's the trauma you're alluding to. LaurenYes, exactly.VirginiaI see, so it was a lot of methodology around weight numbers meant to reassure thin women that 'Don't worry, you won't get fat.'LaurenExactly.VirginiaWhich really leaves out any fat person with an eating disorder, and doesn't really do the thin women any favors either.LaurenRight. Because it just reinforces this fear that weight gain is the worst thing that could happen to somebody.VirginiaThat's fascinating. It sounds like a lot of very much needed updates and a really terrific resource for folks. I saw in the back of the workbook under Resources, you listed Burnt Toast as one of the newsletters with an online community dialogue. It means a lot to have us spotlighted in this way. We do work hard to have our chat rooms and safe spaces in the comment section for folks coming for support. You also listed a lot of folks that we love and look to as leaders in this space: Christy Harrison, Ragen Chastain, Rachel Milner, Sabrina Strings, Bree Campos, Chrissy King, etc. How do you think about the importance of community in the work you do with your clients as you've been reframing CBT in this way?LaurenWe are big fans of yours and all the people you've named, and it was really important to us because here we are, three white women with privilege doing the updating of CBT and we wanted to take it further. It was really important to us that we learned from people with more marginalized identities. We negotiated with our editor to have sensitivity readers and we had people advising us on some of the things that we might not have been as aware of, like food insecurity, gender considerations, and the experience of people in larger bodies. As references, we tried to include some of the thought leaders that we've really learned from. Community is super important in this work because we're asking people to go against the grain of society. Many of the people that come to us for help with eating disorders are people in larger bodies who have been told by medical doctors and people in their lives to lose weight. And then they come to us and we say, 'Well, you're not eating enough.' And they think we're kind of crazy to say that. It really helps when you're asking people to do this work, which is so hard, to have other people in their lives who are supporting this. Many people don't have people in their personal lives who are anti-diet. Where do you find those people? A lot of it is online and in podcasts. I always tell people it helps, even if it's you and me and the person listening to the podcast. They're hearing the interviewer and the guest and there's two other people who are in this world with you. VirginiaThat's right.LaurenIt helps a lot. And I do think that is the missing piece for people in bigger bodies who experience disordered eating - they don't have the support.VirginiaEspecially right now. We're in a really dark cultural moment. You know, just like a swirling vortex of badness in a lot of ways. So it feels even harder, because what the federal government is telling us, what we're seeing in the news, etc, etc, is also running counter to what will actually promote healing. To that end, I'd love if we could talk a little bit about how you're thinking about your work in this dark time. We just had RFK’s latest USDA dietary guidelines come out. Lauren, how are you feeling about the new food pyramid?LaurenSadly, I feel like I am not going to be able to retire anytime soon. The culture just propagates and perpetuates disordered eating in so many ways. Obviously eating is so much more individualized than just following a guideline, but what I can say is that I have never seen a person with binge eating who was not restricting their carbs. VirginiaThat’s really interesting.LaurenCarbs are basically the building blocks of what we eat, and they should be. A lot of the people who complain of what has now been popularized as the term "food noise," are not eating enough, and especially not eating enough carbs or starches. I expect that we'll see many more people coming in saying, 'I'm preoccupied with thoughts of food,' or 'I'm bingeing,' or 'I'm emotionally eating.' In our work, and what our workbook focuses on, is 'Are you eating enough regularly throughout the day? Are you including the various food groups? Are you eating enough starches and fats?' That's the mainstay of recovering from an eating disorder.VirginiaFeeding your brain.LaurenYour brain needs glucose to think logically.VirginiaYeah, and not just at the tiny bottom point of the pyramid, but throughout the day. This is something I've learned from you that I want to make sure we say really clearly, because I think it's something people know but lose track of in their own work on these issues. Often folks come to you and say, 'I binge eat. I'm out of control with food.' When you start working with them your take is quite different.LaurenRight. All the eating disorders are really driven by restriction or not eating enough, and it's true that most people come to us and think they're eating too much. They're complaining about emotional eating or binge eating. As a cognitive behavioral therapist, one of the things that CBT therapists do is ask people to keep records. Early on I was taught to have people record what they're eating, and that really offers an insight into what's going on. In my group practice, we do a lot of training of more junior clinicians, including graduate students. It's really exciting to me when I have a graduate student who's been with me for a couple months, and I say, "Well, what do you think the diagnosis is?" And they'll say to me, "Well, I'm waiting to see the food records because the person's complaining that they're eating too much." But they know from having been through this a few times, that when you see what someone's eating, you see a lot of restriction, a lot of skipped meals, a lot of very sparse meals. People really do think they're eating so much because the culture is so focused on eating these very low intakes, and that's been kind of normalized on social media by wellness culture. People are really shocked when we tell them that they need to eat more, and that is the biggest part of it. Regular eating is kind of the antidote to all disordered eating. In our workbook, we're always like, 'Are you sure you're eating enough?' And I don't want to reinforce dieting by teaching someone strategies to prevent binge eating when they're not eating enough because I'm not going to be successful at that. Because that's the hunger drive and that's what keeps us alive. People may have short term strategies that work, but I definitely don't work on stopping the binge eating or the emotional eating until someone is really eating enough.VirginiaEating enough to support the idea that you would eat less at this one point in the day.LaurenAnd then most often, a lot of the binge eating and emotional eating decreases once people start to eat more regularly at meals and snacks. The food noise goes down.VirginiaLet's talk about food noise. The rise of GLP-1s has really popularized that concept, but also, I would say, as you noted, misdefined it in many situations. How is all of that discourse impacting your work with your clients right now?LaurenIt's definitely impacting us. We are seeing a lot of people coming in on GLP-1s, or contemplating GLP-1s. We always need to distinguish people who are on GLP-1s for medical conditions versus people on them solely for weight loss. One of the problems with being on them for weight loss is that they're on higher dosages, and that's where you get more side effects. We do get some people who come in complaining of binge eating or emotional eating, and then they're on a GLP-1 and they suddenly have no appetite. It's harder to get them to eat enough throughout the day.VirginiaRight. If you're trying to go back and say, 'Wait, let's look at where you're restricting,' and now they can't access any appetite to eat.LaurenOr they're nauseous and throwing up. VirginiaOh, God.LaurenWe have been successful in a number of cases in helping our clients advocate for their doctors to actually lower their doses. Sometimes that helps, but there's a lot of nuance, right? I think we don't know enough about the full impact of these medications. Might there be some benefit for people with eating disorders in certain circumstances? Maybe. But it's a scary thing, and it definitely makes our work harder when we're focused on trying to get people to eat regularly throughout the day.VirginiaThat concept's been getting a lot of media attention, GLP-1s as an eating disorder treatment. But it sounds like you have major reservations about that idea.LaurenBecause it does the opposite of the work we're trying to get people to do. Cognitive behavioral therapy is the best validated treatment. It was developed in the '90s and there's a lot of research to support it. The model is regular eating, including all foods, not being restrictive. And symptoms typically get better. We know that with weight loss, most people don't keep weight off long term.VirginiaRight, and most people aren't able to stay on these drugs long term is also what we're seeing in a lot of research now.LaurenWe do see some people who have been on GLP-1s and then they go off them and their weight is increasing and maybe the binge eating is coming back and starting again. It's a bit of a quick fix. That doesn't solve the problem.VirginiaIt's just rooted in that old thinking of binge eaters must eat too much, take away their appetite, solve binge eating, as opposed to what you've been steadily making the case for. And all the evidence is showing binge eaters are responding to restriction. And so a drug that encourages more restriction, how would that long term solve binge eating? I would love to also talk a little bit about managing eating disorders and disordered eating in kids. You specialize in teenagers. Whenever I have a reader or a friend, as I now parent a middle schooler, reach out with concerns. I'm always like, 'Check out. Dr. Mulheim's work. This is your first stop.' You're a big proponent of Family Based Treatment, FBT, for adolescent eating disorders. On your website you wrote, "I do not believe that parents cause eating disorders, but I know they can be an important part of the solution. Hence, I'm an advocate for the inclusion of parents in the treatment of their children."Let's talk a little bit about how parents can help. What behaviors and symptoms do you take seriously? How do you be part of that solution?LaurenThe first thing is that eating disorders in children and teens is harder to spot than you think. My advice to parents is, if you have concerns, definitely check them out. Some of the signs we see are stopping eating certain foods, eliminating dessert or not eating meals and saying they've already eaten. We may not see weight loss in in a child or a teen. They may just fail to gain, because remember, they're supposed to be gaining over time. Sometimes they're growing and they're not gaining, and that's the equivalent to weight loss in an adult. We also see things like social withdrawal. What looks like depression, poor sleep, or loss of interest in activities. It can look like depression or anxiety. Or complaints of stomach aches. A lot of parents go down the gastrointestinal route, trying to figure out what's going on. It can be very confusing. Family based treatment is a wonderful evidence based treatment. It was developed at Stanford and it's a manualized treatment that basically allows teens to recover in the home. Because traditionally, teens were pulled out of the home. Parents were blamed. There was this saying about how it was always the mother's fault.VirginiaOf course. Clearly.LaurenClearly following on the trend of the schizophrenogenic mother, the autistic mother.VirginiaWe cause autism. We cause eating disorders. LaurenThat has really perpetuated. I still meet people who say it must be the parents. I try to remember we're all in this culture and parents are doing their best. Parents are getting diet messages from all these other health professionals in our culture. I try to remember that they become the messengers of the cultural message. There is often dieting in the home, but does that cause eating disorders in itself? No. And we see that because not all siblings develop an eating disorder. A lot of parents diet and their kids don't develop eating disorders. We have to give parents a chance. The great thing about FBT is it's done through family meals and normalizing eating all foods. It's a great chance for families to come together. I find it very powerful when the parents are unlearning their diet culture with their teens. They're able to do that. Sometimes it's a little bit of a hard wake up call, but most parents can get on board pretty quickly. It's really powerful when you see a whole family change the way they've been eating. It gives the parents a chance to learn the information. Whereas if the teen goes off to residential, the family doesn't come along and then the teen goes back into that home, so it's challenging. It's a lot of work for parents because they become the treatment team. VirginiaIt is a lot of sitting at the table with a kid who doesn't want to eat, which, any parent, regardless of whether they've managed an eating disorder, can tell you that's a nightmare. That's really hard to do and often it can feel counter to some of the other messages we get. If you're looking at the Ellen Satter model of feeding kids, it will be very much not forcing kids to take bites, and in FBT, when you have a kid refeeding after a lot of restriction, you do have to require them to eat. And that feels really strange. Some of the interviews I've done with families who've done this, it is so moving to hear the parents work through their own stuff and come together in a different way to support the child. It's pretty transformative. For parents who are noticing some of the early symptoms, like hiding food, or kids may be lying about what they're eating, how do you recommend parents manage things in those stages? Like, okay, I'm keeping an eye. I'm probably going to talk to the pediatrician. Probably going to, you know, do I need to level this up? And also, how do I react in the moment to some of this stuff?LaurenWith as much compassion as they can, and in a non-shaming way. If you think that you know your kids are lying about what they're eating or hiding food, we really want to just encourage them to eat more with you. Which, again, this comes back to all eating disorders require people to eat more. If someone's hiding food, maybe they're not getting enough at meals. If someone is refusing to eat meals, they're not getting enough at meals. It's a good chance for parents to be more watchful, to try to make sure that meals are eaten and that teens and children have access to a variety of foods. That they're getting their nutritional needs met. A lot of parents, again, because the cultural messaging is so intense, think people should be eating less. If you've taken care of a growing teen, you see how much they need.VirginiaHow much your grocery bill has increased.LaurenParents may not be aware that their teens are supposed to be going through growth spurts. I do some trainings with Rebecca Peebles, who's an amazing pediatrician, and she emphasizes how teens are supposed to gain about 50 pounds as they go through puberty. Where are you going to get that weight if you're not eating enough. The growth pattern for a lot of kids is to grow out before they grow up. There's supposed to be this weight gain. We observe teens who are starting to gain weight to fuel this growth, and then someone panics, whether it's the pediatrician or a parent or the child themselves, and they start to restrict. That's the prime time for when anorexia can strike. If they had been left alone, they would have just gained and grown. Now you have to do all this work to get them back to that weight so that they can start to grow again. VirginiaI think that's so helpful to normalize. This is what we want our kids to be doing. I'm parenting middle schoolers and I am shocked sometimes how fast a group of 12 year olds can empty the snack cabinet or the ice cream freezer, but this is what we want them to be doing right now. When you see that hiding food behavior, parents often think they need to correct that behavior, instead of stepping back and thinking about what led to the hiding. And is this a food that you've given a message they shouldn't have as much of? Or as you're saying, are there other parts in the day where they're not getting enough? I also think a lot about the schedules these kids are under. They're at school all day, then they're going to sports or play rehearsal. My kid was out of the house for 12 hours yesterday. She was starving when she got home, and if you are coming with a diet mindset, you might be alarmed by that. But it completely makes sense that she didn't have enough time to eat during her school day and needed to make up for it. LaurenYeah. VirginiaWell, this is so helpful. Your work is reassuring and grounded. Whether folks are dealing with an active eating disorder or not, if you're parenting teens, if you're working on your own stuff with food, Lauren's work is an incredible resource. The workbook is really great, so thank you for that.LaurenThank you. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterVirginiaSo we wrap up every episode of Burnt Toast with butter, which is our recommendation segment. Do you have any butter for us today?LaurenI've been having a lot of fun with gardening fruit trees in Los Angeles. It's been really fun. I just recently pruned a peach tree to get it ready to hopefully bud and produce fruit. Peach trees have to be shaped in a certain way. You don't want the central leader you've got to have key branches. So I studied, and then you have to reduce the fruit, which is very sad.VirginiaOh, you have to cut off baby fruit. LaurenYou have to cut off baby fruit because otherwise it just produces too much. You want to select which peaches are going to get bigger. That's been fun. And I'm growing an avocado tree. Pretty soon I have to go outside and spray it with sugar water to encourage the bees.VirginiaAmazing.LaurenTo hopefully pollinate it. I love that. I've been hand pollinating my passion fruit vine, which is a whole other thing.VirginiaI am so jealous that you can do all of this outside. I am currently raising a indoor orange tree because I live in New York and it is 20 degrees today. It is stressful. I have to tell you, Lauren, I don't think she's living her best life right now. I mean, who among us is in this time of year, but I just added a humidifier because I got a hygrometer. She was starting to lose leaves and her humidity was only 22% because it's so cold, even inside my heated house. It's so cold and dry. So my butter is going to be my humidifier for my orange tree. I'm hopeful, because she's got fruit on her, and it's starting to ripen, but she's dropping leaves because the air is too dry. It's high stakes over here right now with the orange tree.LaurenBeing able to grow outside. VIrginiaIt's more logical than what I'm doing, but I just love the idea of fruit trees. We do have, in my garden outside, blueberry bushes, raspberry bushes, all that stuff. But I wanted year round joy.LaurenIn California we have to get the no freeze hours berries.VirginiaIt's a whole different world over there. Fascinating. Well, yay! Here's for fruit trees for everybody! I don't know if I want to recommend everybody get an indoor fruit tree, because it is quite a project, but she is bringing me a lot of joy, as well as I'm stressing and over there filling her humidifier twice a day.LaurenRight? It’s a lot of work to take care of these trees.VirginiaBut I'm on it.LaurenI'll be back spraying my avocado tree with sugar to invite the bees.VirginiaYou know what? There's also something to be said for an obsessive hobby right now to just give you a little thing to focus on. I can do this. I can spray this tree with sugar water. Because there's a lot we can't control. So you know what? Fruit tree farming seems like a great use of energy. LaurenAnd then you get to eat them. VirginiaYes, exactly, and that's what I'm really excited for. And make delicious beverages and whatnot. Lauren, tell folks where we can find you. How we can support your work.LaurenMy website is https://www.eatingdisordertherapyla.com/. That's where my group practice information is, and my books are listed there. I have blog with a lot of resources for people with eating disorders, and for parents. My books are available wherever you buy books. They're both by New Harbinger Publications and The Weight-Inclusive CBT Workbook for Eating Disorders is available now.VirginiaAmazing. We'll link to all of that. Thank you for being here.LaurenThank you so much for having me.Thanks for listening to Burnt Toast. If you enjoyed the conversation, please support our work with a paid subscription. They start at just $5 a month, and you'll keep Burnt Toast an ad and sponsor free space. Learn more at https://www.patreon.com/virginiasolesmith/join. Make sure you are following us for free in your podcast player. Scroll down wherever you're listening, tap the stars, five of them please, and leave us a review. That really helps us grow and helps new listeners find conversations like these. The Burnt Toast Podcast is hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. You can follow Virginia on Instagram at @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.bsky.social. You can follow Corinne on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay.bsky.social and on Patreon at Big Undies. This podcast is produced by Kim Baldwin. You can follow Kim at @theblondemule on all platforms and subscribe to her newsletter at The Blonde Mule. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay and it’s time for a BONUS January Indulgence Gospel!This episode is free for everyone. If you enjoy it, consider a paid subscription to Burnt Toast! It's the best way to support our work and keep this an ad- and sponsor-free space. You'll also get behind some of our most popular paywalled episodes like: 🧈 Why is Katie Sturino Working for Weight Watchers?🧈Don't Go On the Pete Wells Diet🧈The Mel Robbins Cult of High FivesAnd more! (Find every Indulgence Gospel episode here.) Never miss another episode! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈This episode may contain affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 230 TranscriptVirginiaSo today we are just catching you up on some general January news. These are things that are happening in our lives and the world. And then we're going to answer a few listener questions. CorinneThis is kind of my favorite type of episode, VirginiaSame. Do you want to go first? Do you have an update for us? Some news? CorinneOne thing that I've been dying to ask you, and I've kind of been holding back on is... have you watched Heated Rivalry. VirginiaI haven't watched it. CorinneOkay, but do you know what I'm talking about?VirginiaWell, I'm just going to Google it real quick.CorinneOh, my God. No! Don't even Google it. This is what you need to do this weekend. Wait, do you have a kid-free weekend because it's not kid-friendly.VirginiaOh come on, it’s a sports thing! CorinneThere is so little sports. Let me just tell you.VirginiaOkay...CorinneIf you're watching it for the sports, you will be disappointed. There' is no sports, okay? No sports. Basically, if the camera was one inch lower, it would be porn. VirginiaOh! Okay. CorinneIt's based on, like, gay romance novels.VirginiaOhhhhh it's the gay hockey players! Yes, alright. Watching. I am kid-free and I will be doing that this weekend. CorinneAnd I think Jack will like it as well. So I recommend you watch it together. VirginiaObviously.CorinneIt's very horny. Whoa. And I will say: I watched like, half of the first episode, and I was like, I don't think this is for me. And then it was, like, popping off on the Internet. So I was like, all right, I gotta give it another try. And now I'm, like, obsessed with Connor Storrie.VirginiaSo okay, is it like you're watching it because it's so absurd? Or are you invested in the characters? CorinneI'm invested. VirginiaYou're invested.CorinneIt's just like a romance novel. They're both different kinds of sports tropes. One of them's kind of like a tough guy from Russia, and the other one's a little softie Canadian. It's very sweet. And I think that the actors have a lot of chemistry. And you see their butts a lot.VirginiaWell, I'm in. We'll watch this this weekend. I mean, I have read many a hockey player romance novel. Some of them were gay.  CorinneThen you've probably read the novels.VirginiaI may have read the novels. Although I don't like hockey, I have to say, I'm never going to be a pick me girl for hockey. It's a confusing sport to me. CorinneThere's like, basically no hockey. Having watched the whole thing I can tell you nothing about hockey.Virginia You have learned nothing.Corinne There's like, cup that you can win? That's all I know.VirginiaOh yes. Wait. I want to call it a Stanley Cup? But isn't that the water bottles? Or is there also a hockey Stanley Cup?CorinneI don't know, Virginia and I don't care. Gay hockey forever.VirginiaDelightful. This is an amazing update. We are actually watching the second season of Bad Sisters right now, on your recommendation. So we do have to finish that up. I didn't think that it could pull off a good second season, but they really are delivering. And then in my parenting life, I'm continuing to work through Buffy the Vampire Slayer with my 12 year old. It's a delight. I really do feel like you maybe need to consider a Buffy watch at some point.CorinneNext time I have 47 hours unscheduled weeks.VirginiaI mean, you can chip away at it too. It's on Disney Plus! Oh wait, you probably don't have Disney Plus. CorinneMy bad. VirginiaNo that's fair. Well, it's been very fun we're in season four now for the Buffy fans in the audience. And it's going to start getting a little more violent. I'll have to feel it out. But I think we're, at the point of no return. That's a good TV update. Have you been reading anything good? I read a book that I think you liked, and I don't think I liked it. But I think I'm in the minority. CorinneWhich book?VirginiaHeart The Lover by Lily King.CorinneOh, my God, you didn't like it?!VirginiaNo. What am I missing? CorinneWhat didn't you like? VirginiaI felt like they were all so annoying and pretentious. Is it because I was an English major, so I don't like English majors? We're just pretty annoying, with all the literary references. Okay, we get it. You are boys who read books. I was just like, why would you sleep with either one of them? I don't get it.CorinneOh, fascinating. I mean, I was just sobbing for the entire second half.VirginiaIt does get sad in the second half, but I didn't like him, so I didn't care?CorinneYou weren't invested.VirginiaAnd it's not hard to get me invested in a health journey of any sort! I'm not going to spoil it for anyone, but—okay, spoiler alert! We're going to talk about it with spoilers, so that we can really get into it. If you didn't read that book, you'll want to skip ahead about a minute and a half. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈SCROLL TO NEXT SET OF BUTTER EMOJIS TO AVOID SPOILERS!Okay, I thought it was real weird that she gave a kid up for adoption, and then was just like, "But I know she's fine. It's fine. It's all fine." And yet she was so worried about the kid she did have who had health issues. I mean, of course she was worried about him— but she had just mentally been like, that one's fine. I picked good people. They had a nice photo. So I know she's having a great childhood. That was really weird to me. CorinneI mean, I felt like that seemed like the decision of a young, stressed out person,VirginiaYeah, maybe. And how she keeps talking about it is meant to be a trauma response?CorinneIt was a questionable young person decision.VirginiaYes, definitely. But it felt weird that she would never reflect further upon it as she got into her own motherhood. I'm not saying she was wrong to give the baby up for her adoption. I also think abortion exists, and that would have made sense. But I'm not saying she should have kept the child. I just thought, don't you think you would have gotten any more nuanced in your feelings about it as the years went on?CorinneThe book is her getting more nuanced about it. Right?VirginiaNot really! Not about the baby. She's like, Yeah, she's fine. I mean, she finally tells him about it, but.CorinneI don't know. I think she was kind of in denial about it, or just avoiding it, and then the book is her coming to terms with it. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈END OF SPOILERSVirginiaWell, I just felt like everyone was pretentious and unlikable. And it feels like everyone loves this book so much, and I don't know what I missed. CorinneHave you read her other books? VirginiaNo, this was my first Lily King, CorinneOkay, because there's also, like a connection to one of the other books. VirginiaWell, I'm not going to read it because I didn't like any of these people. But Corinne loved it, guys, so if you love it, if you've read it, let us know in the comments! I was just surprised. This is the first time I've ever not liked one of your book recs.CorinneI am a little surprised, but I think maybe I'm primed to like those college, academic group of kids books. That's a genre I really like. Virginia I think it's a genre I don't like. I think I actively dislike reading about people in college.CorinneYeah, it's interesting, because I'm not like, looking back fondly on my own experience at that time. Yeah. I think I just like, enjoy the dynamics. Did you read A Secret History? VirginiaNo, CorinneI love that book. So I feel like, this was maybe tapping into that.VirginiaI think I just think academia is very pretentious? CorinneIsn't one of your parents a professor? VirginiaYes I was raised by professors. CorinneSo maybe there's something there. VirginiaThree out of four of my parents have worked as professors. So yes. I grew up in academia. CorinneOkay, well, none of mine have. VirginiaWell, I am now reading The Stone Yard Devotional by Charlotte Wood. It's about this woman, who's sort of lost  in her life and moves into a convent. And I keep thinking "Corinne would really like this book." CorinneIt does sound good to me. Virginia I don't know if I like it, but I do think you would really like it. Usually I'm a big do not finisher if I don't like a book. And I will say Heart The Lover was a snappy read. So I kept going. Because I was like, well, Corinne loved this book, so I'll keep reading to find out when I'll love it. And that was never, but it was a fast read, and this one is too. I'm moving through it quickly, but I think I do need to really root for the characters.CorinneThat's funny. I have a conversation like this a lot with my mom, because she doesn't like books where the characters are too flawed. We always say it like, if she doesn't like them, she, doesn't want to read it.VirginiaI am okay with flawed, but they have to be flawed and likable.CorinneThey have to have redeeming qualities,VirginiaAnd maybe some awareness of their flawedness in a interesting way?. I don't know. I don't need them to be good people, but I guess, endearing? And in these two books, I'm not finding anyone that endearing. But they are interesting, all right. CorinneWell I'm also extremely curious to hear about your 30 Day Strength Challenge.VirginiaOkay, yes! So despite the fact that in our New Year's Day episode, I was like, "We're not doing any January fitness challenges!" Three days later, I was like, Oh, I'm doing a fitness challenge. It's a challenge created by friend of the show, beloved podcast guest, Anna Maltby, who writes the How to Move newsletter. And she has a 30 day strength training challenge going on this month. And I saw it, and I love Anna, but I wasn't going to do it. Because I was just like, oh, I'm not going to do that. And then my friend Mary texted a bunch of us and was like, "I really want to do the strength training challenge. Who's in?" and I was like, "Oh, all right, sure, I'll do it with you!" And, it's very fun. It's getting me to work out consistently five days a week, which I never do! Oh, let me pause and say, we're going to talk some specifics on weights. If you don't want to hear numbers, skip ahead. Man, I'm just getting people to fast forward through this whole episode! We're done with book spoilers, but we might mention weight numbers. So if you don't want that... skip ahead again.CorinneAnd just to clarify, you mean weight lifting numbers. Not body weight numbers. BUTTER EMOJIS AROUND WEIGHT TALK🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈VirginiaNo, no, no, no. This has nothing to do with body weight. I am not doing this to lose weight. I am doing this to support my friend who wants to do the challenge, and because I kind of liked the idea of seeing what it would feel like to increase my weight training for a month. CorinneSo, my question is: It's a 30 day challenge, but you're not doing strength workouts every day for 30 days, right? VirginiaNo, Anna makes her programs very customizable, so you could really do anything. You could do one workout a week and be like, "This is my 30 day challenge." She lets you make your own plan. She does include a suggested schedule, which is six workouts a week, but only three of them are weights. It's three days of weights, two days of cardio and then a Pilates day. I'm trimming it down to five days. [Post-recording correction: It's actually 2 days of weights, plus a "core and conditioning" HIIT workout where only one move involves a weight. Plus 3 suggested cardio and Pilates days.]And my main goal for this is to see: Is this helping me reliably carve out a few more workout windows in my week? It's getting me to try out days when I wouldn't normally do a workout., and see, does it make sense with the schedule? If so, when I'm done with this challenge, then I'll reflect on, do I want to keep this schedule? Do I want to do go back to two days of weights but do a little more cardio? I'm kind of just using it as, a see how it feels to do more weights and more workouts. To see how it feels to do more movement, and then think about what kind of movement I think I want to keep doing. CorinneCool.Virginia Yeah. it's been fun so far. I did print out the little calendar and write down my plan, and I've been giving myself little stickers. So we love that. I'm only a week into it at this point, so it could all fall apart. But I think Anna's so good at creating challenges that aren't about losing weight. She says this is more prescriptive than her usual work. She is encouraging you to make a schedule and stick to a schedule, to give yourself some accountability, which I think can be interesting. But there's no weight loss goal. She really wants people to feel empowered to develop weightlifting workouts they do on their own, not with the aid of a video. And I love you Anna, but I'm not going to do that. I just want you to tell me what to do all the time. CorinneTotally. VirginiaI don't want fitness mental load, but I am following her advice to, keep track of how much weight I'm lifting. And then to see over the course of the month, if I can increase that weight. So right now there are some moves where I only use 10 or 15 lb weights. Can we go up to 20 or 30? We'll see! CorinneI spoke to someone else who is doing this challenge. They were very sore!VirginiaYeah, I'm pretty sore. Yesterday, we did a weights workout, and there was one move that required bands, and we didn't have bands. And two of my friends came to do it with me. So we substituted side planks for those moves, and it turned out to be quite a lot of side planks, and my obliques are real unhappy, But, you know, it's like, the good kind of sore where you're like, Oh, I did a thing, yay. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈WEIGHT LIFTING TALK OVERWhat about you? How's power lifting going these days?Corinneit's going good. I kind of haven't been going very much, because it was just December. Like, did I go at all in December? I feel like maybe just the first week or two.Virginiabut then you were driving to Oregon and back.CorinneYes, my mom was here and we traveled. So I'm kind of, getting back into it after a little break. And that's always a little hard. For the first couple workouts back, you're like, Oh, I'm weak. VirginiaOr I like to reframe it as, Wow, I can really feel like I got a hard workout without doing too much.CorinneSo that's where I'm at. Beginning again! VirginiaWell, it is the time of year for that. And also, I support everyone not doing workout challenges. One of my friends who's doing this challenge, as of this recording, has yet to do a workout even though we're six days in because she has Covid, poor thing. So I think it's really good to do these things, but not do them in a overly obsessive way. Oh and I have a low key goal for myself this year of improving my flexibility. I really would like to have an easier time getting off of the floor. CorinneIs that related to flexibility or not? VirginiaI think it's a combination of flexibility and strength. If I think more about my glute muscles, I can get off the floor more easily. But there is also some reaching involved, and I don't know there's mobility, for sure. And I feel like as I've been getting stronger, I've also been getting a little stiffer. And getting off the floor is hard. CorinneYeah, it is.VirginiaAnd it's not a moral imperative, but I end up on the floor a lot because I have kids, so I would like it to be easier to get out of that position. CorinneMaybe you need to get rid of all your furniture.VirginiaThat's the thing. That's what we'll do. CorinneBecause sometimes I sit on the floor when I'm watching TV. I don't know why. I'm just more comfortable. So maybe I should just get rid of all my furniture.VirginiaProbably that's the next logical step. CorinneI am not sitting on the couch while I watch TV. VirginiaBut make sure to keep it in your neighbor's house or your in-laws house. CorinneMy auxiliary house. VirginiaSo you can go work on it during the day. For folks who are like, what are they talking about? This is a reference to an episode we did where we looked at is everything a diet, and we looked at an article from Dwell by a man who had given up all of his furniture in service of his family's health. And we're here to say you don't have to do that. Chairs are great.Okay. The other thing I wanted to tell you about is my new orange tree.CorinneWow. This is an indoor tree.VirginiaIt's an indoor tree. It's my favorite thing I got for Christmas. My mom got me an orange tree, and my eight year old has named it Olive Piper. So it is Olive Piper, the tree. CorinneOlive the orange tree. VirginiaDon't overthink it. But it has two oranges on it! They're green, but I'm tracking them turning orange. My mom has an orange tree, and she's been getting lots of oranges off it. And I think she has better light than I do, but I'm really optimistic. It's an exciting new thing to obsess over.Corinne That's really exciting.VirginiaAnd if we do get oranges, how thrilling will it be?CorinneIt seems like an orange tree would smell good.VirginiaIt doesn't smell like anything right now, but I think maybe once the fruit ripens. CorinneOr I guess I was thinking of flowers,VirginiaOh yes, Well if anyone does indoor citrus, hit me up with your tips. Because I don't know a lot about it's life cycle, I'm worried about how much to water it, all that kind of stuff.CorinneI wonder if in the summer, you can put it outside.VirginiaWell, my mom strongly advised against it. She tried that and it was like an orange tree crisis. I guess citrus trees are prone to bugs and funguses and so if it's happy, just keep it where it is, just keep it happy. It's pretty big, too. CorinneShould we do some questions?VirginiaLet's do some listener questions.CorinneAll right. The first one is, What should I say to a friend when they are complaining about their own body?VirginiaOh, these are always such annoying moments. Truly, just annoyed for you. CorinneI think there are two sides here. One side is: It's clearly bothering you. And the other side is: Can you empathize with your friend who's clearly having a hard time. So I think you kind of need to balance how much it's bothering with you, with, how much it's bothering them. Do you want to just set a hard boundary? Like, "I'd rather not talk about this." Or do you want to be like, "That's really hard, my body bothers me sometimes too." VirginiaHow much do you think the relative body sizes of the friends matters here?CorinneI think if it's someone smaller than you, it might be triggering to you in a different way. And you might want to just set a boundary, versus if it's someone who's bigger than you complaining about their body. VirginiaYeah, I think it does matter. I think if it's someone smaller than you, it's okay to say, Hey, I'm sorry you're having a hard time, but I am not the person for this conversation. Wish you well with that, but I'm not the person for this. If it's someone bigger than you—I don't want to invalidate your own struggles with your body, but can you understand it more from the perspective of they experience bias and stigma that you don't deal with, and find empathy for it is harder for them to navigate seating or doctors or clothing access, etc. I think that has to play into it.CorinneThere's also layers of privilege with this stuff though, that you might not know about. Like a thinner person could also be more disabled, or a transgender person or a person of color. VirginiaGood point. CorinneAlso, there are no details in this question. Like, what are they complaining about? VirginiaI assume weight, if they sent it to us! CorinneYes, but maybe they're complaining about, my butt is too big for this chair, or people stare at me when I do XYZ thing, versus, just like I have flabby muffin top, right?VirginiaThat's interesting. I think if someone is just denigrating their body, that is harder to absorb as a friend than someone who's like, "I'm talking about what's difficult in my lived experience of my body." CorinneTotally,VirginiaBut on the other hand, of course, people do really struggle emotionally with feeling negative about how their body looks. So I'm not saying they don't deserve a place to vent about that. But if they're venting requires the use of anti-fat language, that's a problem. If your best friend is New York Times restaurant reviewer Pete Wells, I think you should set a boundary and say, "Pete, I don't want to hear about how you lost the weight of a basset hound." If the only way they can talk about their struggle is to invoke anti-fat rhetoric and language, I think you should set a boundary. CorinneI think that's a good way of talking about it. Like, what are they complaining about? Is it anti-fatness, or is it something else.VirginiaThe next question is a very fun one. Please tell us about your pets, including their names and origin stories.CorinneI'll go first because I only have one pet.  I have a dog named Bunny. I've had her for almost 10 years, and she's around 11. I got her from a shelter in Albuquerque when I moved here, or not long after I moved here. I had been knowing I wanted a dog, and I was living in a bunch of situations where I was not allowed to have a dog. So as soon as I entered a situation where I was, I got a dog. She's a pit bull. She was a scrawny little shelter dog. And now she's kind of entering her old ladyhood.Virginia11. Wow.Corinne I love her. She's also kind of bad. She's, not great with other dogs, not great with, like, smaller creatures in general. But yeah, she's my dog, so! VirginiaShe's allowed to have preferences and feelings about the world. I admire Bunny from afar. When Corinne drives to Maine, and I'm always like,"Come and stay on your way to Maine in New York!" She's like, our dogs can't be friends. So we haven't figured that out yet.CorinneAlso, also chickens. VirginiaWell, the chickens are in a coop. I mean, it's easy to keep Bunny away from the chickens. I promise, okay. Speaking of, yes, I have chickens.CorinneHow many pets do you have? Would you say?VirginiaI currently oversee? Manage? I manage a flock of 13 animals. CorinneWow. Does that include the chickens?Virginia That includes eight chickens. I would like to underscore that I am a cat person who would be happy owning one cat. One to two cats is, to me, the correct number of pets. I do like dogs. I am much more of a dog person now that I have a dog. But they are so much more work than cats. It's not even funny. It's not the same conversation at all. So if I had a different life, I would be a one to two cat person. However, I have a child who is an animal whisperer. Like truly, that is her love language, that is her passion, that is her whole world. And you're supposed to really try to encourage your children's interests. And so somehow, now I have 1000 pets. When the kids were born, we had, at the time, three old man cats that were dying off in their early childhood. And then once we were down to one cat, we got the dog. So we have a Bernedoodle named Penelope. And at that point, in 2020, we also had the dog, a cat named Walter, and a fish tank. And when we divorced, I said, I will keep the dog and Walter the cat who hates the dog will go to their dad's house and the fish tank went to their dad's house too. Oh, I'm sorry we also had a leopard gecko at that point. So I kept the gecko. And I've talked before on the podcast the story of Blue the gecko. I won't go into it now, but Blue the gecko did disappear for a while. So we adopted a second gecko, and now we have two geckos, Blue and Kat. And the dog, Penelope. CorinneWhat is the lifespan of a gecko?Virginia it's like 25 years. It didn't know that when I got a gecko.CorinneAre you kidding me?VirginiaNo. Blue and Kat and I are in it for the long haul. They can live a really long time. But I will say they are very low maintenance pets. When they're not lost in your house, they just sleep in their tanks all day, and you feed them wax worms every couple of days. It's no work. Compared to a dog, it's fine. They're less work than a cat. So for a while, we were a household of just dog and geckos, and then the kids convinced me to adopt two kittens, so we added Licorice and Cheese, our two cats. And Cheese is my favorite of all of the pets. And I tell all the other pets this all the time, because I'm always hoping to inspire them to be more like Cheese. Cheese is the most laid back cat. He's like, You do you. I'm fine. I'll come and curl up next to you, but I'm not in your business. I don't create drama. I don't create interspecies drama. Like Penelope and Licorice are always working stuff out. Cheese is my favorite child. Everyone knows this. And then after we were really at indoor pet capacity, I would say, with the two geckos, the two cats and the dog, Jack, came into our lives, and he really encouraged my 12 year old's passion for chickens, and now we have the eight chickens. CorinneWow. VirginiaAnd the chickens do have names. Let me see if I can do it. Pom Pom, Turkey, Shiva the destroyer, Lord Peanut of Doom, Peggy, Alex, Lily and somebody else. Oh, Thomas J Finnegans. CorinneWill you be getting any other animals. VirginiaNo. CorinneAsk your children.VirginiaI say no, okay, but I cannot with confidence. I mean, for sure, if we have a casualty, there will be a strong argument for replacement. I have held firm on no second dog, because as much as I love Penelope, they are so much work. Dogs are like adding another child to your home. And I don't want that. And I don't think anyone wants another cat, because, I mean, we make Jack do the cat litter now that he's here but none of us were real enthusiastic about litter box cleaning. So that’s the one downside of cats. And for anyone whose kids are pet curious: I don't think reptiles are actually great pets, because they are not very interactive or interesting. This is an unpopular position, but I think if you're inclined to go reptile and you live in a neighborhood where you can do it, chickens are a better option. They are also tiny dinosaurs and you get eggs, and they're more fun and interactive, CorinneThat makes sense. VirginiaAnd it's about the same work wise. They're not a ton of work. Also, just be a cat person, though. I mean, it's fine, nobody needs this many pets. But they do bring us a lot of joy.CorinneAll right. Well, on to the next topic. Question, do I need to buy a sex pillow? Instagram keeps making me think I do not sure if they are size inclusive.VirginiaI think you do. You don't need to buy one off Instagram. But we learned from Brianna Campos, when she came on to do our fat sex episode, that they are definitely size inclusive and, a really good option for fat sex. CorinneI feel like, if you're wondering about it, why not? At the very least, you have something to try out.VirginiaSee if you're into it. I wonder if Instagram keeps sending this person the same one they send me, which is like a very high end linen sex pillow. CorinneOh, wow. VirginiaCalled Tabu. CorinneI'm not getting advertised this. VirginiaWell, you will now. I've been curious about it. I've been, seeing the ads.CorinneI would definitely look into whether it's size inclusive. Maybe see if there are reviews from anyone? Or how strong the foam is? VirginiaAre we worried about it getting flattened? Are we worried about width? Like, you don't want to feel like something's narrow? You don't want it to feel like a yoga block underneath you? So maybe check some measurements. But I think there's got to be some good, fat-friendly sex pillows out there, because the sex wedge is really helpful for working it out with bodies with bellies. It gives you new angles to get to. We say go for it and report back and let us know. CorinneGo for it. VirginiaOkay, I will read the last question: Hi. I am wondering if you find that personal responsibility vis a vis sustainability to be a diet ever? For example, pledging to do something to help the planet in absolute terms. Like, I will never, ever drink bottled water. I will never buy a new article of clothing, etc. It seems blasphemous to say personal responsibility, efforts towards sustainability is a diet, but I'd be curious to hear your and Corinne's thoughts on it. I do think it's great and necessary to take steps to reduce, reuse, recycle, have a smaller footprint, use resources responsibly and sustainably, but sometimes the rigidity of people's rules around this and the moralizing feel familiar to diet culture.CorinneI do think it can be a diet. it's one of those things where you kind of have to find the sweet spot between it feeling like a restrictive diet, and not being so jaded that you do nothing. So it's not being like, I will never, ever drink bottled water, but also not throwing every plastic bottle you encounter in to the landfill.VirginiaI think anytime we're absolute about something, we start to enter into a perfectionist territory, which goes diet-y, fast—if by diet we mean using a set of external rules to judge yourself, setting high standards that are impossible to achieve, and deciding there's an arbitrary standard of goodness by which to measure yourself. Those are all the main components of how Burnt Toast defines a diet. And I can see them showing up here. But it doesn't mean like you're saying that the actual impetus to want to live more sustainably is problematic. I think it's that we are so used to feeling like if we're doing something, there's one right way to do it. That's how we apply a diet lens to this topic. And it's sort of ironic, right? Because the whole goal is to live more sustainably. And there is nothing less sustainable than a diet.CorinneI've definitely, felt this way about the sustainability fashion conversation sometimes where people are, like, "There's absolutely no excuse for shopping from fast fashion brands." VirginiaBudget, accessibility...come on, guys. CorinneHave you ever been a size 26 and needed a pair of pants immediately.Virginia I can think of so many reasons why folks need to shop fast fashion at least sometimes. And I just think anytime we remove the possibility for gray areas we remove the ability for something to be sustainable, I also think a lot of the steps that people take towards sustainability and get really obsessive about doing "one right way" are not necessarily the things we most need to happen to save the planet.What we really need is, big legislative change, industry regulation—all these big things. And it's not to say that personal choices don't matter, but you becoming overly rigid about bottled water is not going to make or break anything. So how is it useful? How is it getting you towards the goal? And at what cost? If we're always kind of moving the goal post on what's enough here, that's not useful. Which is not to say, don't do some of these things. But the absolutism, I see it all the time, and I think a lot people start those projects and are not able to sustain them. And I say this to someone who regularly feels like she's not doing nearly enough for the planet. So I'm not saying I've got to figured it out. There's certainly more I could be doing. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterCorinneWell, I think we made a podcast.VirginiaI think we did that! What's your Butter today?  CorinneOkay, my Butter is something which I also just recommended on Big Undies, but it is called Ponaris, kind of guessing on how you say it. And it is a nasal emollient. So it is like a little glass bottle with a dropper that is filled with oil and minty herbs or something.Virginia Beef tallow. CorinneAnd you drop it up your nose and it immediately drips down the back of your throat and clears everything out. VirginiaOhhhh....so not beef tallow. CorinneIt feels amazing. Someone recommended it on the Big Undies Fall Must Haves. And last week, I just, reached a tipping point where I was like, my legs are scaly. My sinuses are scaly. VirginiaI am becoming a lizard. It's too dry. CorinneIt was like a desert inside of me. And so I ordered a new lotion and some Ponaris. Anyways, apparently it was developed by NASA for astronauts to use in space as. part of their first aid kit. VirginiaOh, my God. Oh, my God. CorinneSo that’s science, if you've ever heard of it. VirginiaIt's good enough for the astronauts noses, guess it's good enough for my nose! CorinneIt's a little bit weird. But I do feel like it's really making a difference.VirginiaWell I totally want to try it. I also totally want to say that this is your second MAHA-adjacent recommendation.CorinneIs this one MAHA? I was thinking this was more like the solar shield. VirginiaWell it's in the woo, woo supplement territory. CorinneOkay, well, yeah.VirginiaWe're getting into ear candling vibes. People are going to be like, I love ear candling.CorinneIs that MAHA?VirginiaI don't know. CorinneI don't know that it is. Ear candling is, crunchy hippie, right?VirginiaBut it's the crunchy hippie that then circles back around to MAHA. I'm just saying, we're concerned and we're tracking. CorinneThank you for your concern. VirginiaWell, to make you feel better, my Butter is also going to be a weird nasal supplement.CorinneOh, amazing. Wow. We did not plan this. VirginiaIt's also perfect because this is the pets episode! Mine is a weird supplement that I'm giving my cats so I won't be allergic to them.CorinneWhoa, does that work?VirginiaI can't believe I'm saying this, but... yes, it seems to be really working. Question Mark?CorinneWhat is it? VirginiaOkay, it's a brand called Pacagen. It's a chicken flavored powder, and you sprinkle a little on the top of your cat's food. And they claim, I guess this too, is science. Question mark? They claim that it changes the protein in your cat saliva, and that's what we're allergic to. And cats lick their fur everywhere. So that's why you react to cat fur. I, despite being an avowed cat person, am allergic to cats. I live in a lot of denial about it, because I love them and wish to have cats, and don't wish to acknowledge the cat allergy that I live with, but I was reaching a point last fall where I was like, I mean, I am definitely, really allergic to my cats. Every time I pet them, my eyes were streaming and, you know, I wake up with a stuffy nose all the time. Is it sleep apnea? Is it cat allergies? Who knows? Anyway, someone on Instagram influenced me to try this because she claimed it totally worked for her. And I was like, whatever, we'll try it. And both Jack and I, within like, two weeks, were like, oh my god, we're really a lot less allergic, and I can pet the cat now and not have an immediate reaction.CorinneWow, that's amazing. VirginiaNow, couple of caveats.It's quite expensive. I'm locked in now, but it's like 60 bucks a month, or something. Like, it's not nothing, especially because I have two cats, so I need to buy, like, multiple things, and itcomes in these little, teeny bottles. Also, my family, who are all much more cat allergic than me, when they visited for Christmas, were like, You're crazy. We're still allergic to your cats. So I don't know what level of allergy severity it works for. I would have described my allergy as mild to moderate. But also I don't know, maybe they were having colds or something. Nasal stuff is very mysterious. It's very hard to nail down what's causing it. So we don't know. But it's working well enough that I'm going to keep buying it for the lifespan of these cats, I guess, and as long as I feel like it's still working. It's something to try, because otherwise I was like, am I at the allergy shot stage? And that felt like a whole big project. I hope this is helpful information for anyone else whose nose is dry and stuffy. You can put oil in it, and you can feed your cat something weird.CorinneAmazing. VirginiaAll right. Thank you all for listening. We would love to know what is new with you and what you're putting in your nose. Take that in whatever direction you want! Tell us in the comments. Make sure to rate and review us in your podcast player and tell friends where they can listen for breaking news about nasal substances. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies. Our producer is Kim Baldwin who also writes The Blonde Mule. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay and it’s time for your January Indulgence Gospel! Today we are talking about former restaurant critic turned diet crusader Pete Wells—and why the New York Times always spends January turning into a women's magazine from hell. CW for discussions of intentional weight loss and lazy fat jokes (from Pete), including some that are offensive to both humans and bassett hounds. You do need to be a paid Just Toast subscriber to listen to this full conversation. Membership starts at just $5 per month!Join Just Toast!Don't want an ongoing commitment? Click "buy for $4!" to listen to just this one.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈This episode may contain affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 229 TranscriptCorinneUgh. That's all I can muster.VirginiaAnd it's not a new ugh. They do this every January, guys. We have to emotionally prepare ourselves—those of us who still have an admittedly increasingly problematic subscription to The New York Times—we have to emotionally prepare ourselves that every January they become like Cosmo from 2004, and do this ridiculous weight loss challenge bullshit. And it's so odd and misaligned with actual journalism. OK, so dd you see the piece that came out like two days ago? Corinne“Our Former Restaurant Critic Changed His Eating Habits, You Can, Too?"VirginiaThe before and after journey of Pete Wells.CorinneI sure did see it. I mean, my first thought was... the food looks good. VirginiaFood does look good. CorinneI might be making some of these recipes. And guess what? I'll still be fat.VirginiaVirginia comes in hot and angry. Corinne...angry, but also willing to make a delicious chickpea dish?CorinneI'm definitely going to eat this. But don't get me wrong, also very angry.VirginiaOne of the listeners said in the chat today, Why does New York Times Cooking do this to me? They have good recipes and then they have to,take this weird turn. Like, just make good recipes. That's what you do. That's what we pay for. We just want the pretty food pictures and the useful recipes. We don't want this. We don't need this. CorinneArticles like this are literally putting people off the recipes.VirginiaBefore we talk about the current "Reset Your Appetite" challenge, and the way he's talking about his story now, we'll just quickly back up for people who blessedly missed this whole thing. Pete Wells is a former restaurant critic for the New York Times. And last July he wrote a piece titled, "After 12 years of Reviewing Restaurants, I'm Leaving the Table." It was all about how the job had made him fat, and so he couldn't be a restaurant critic anymore because he felt bad about being fat.Wells talked a lot about his own health issues, too. He said, “my cholesterol, blood sugar and hypertension were worse than I expected. The terms pre diabetes, fatty liver disease and metabolic syndrome were thrown around.” And sure, that is all upsetting, and a lot to deal with. But he blamed it all on his weight and then made all these really lazy fat jokes. He wrote, “I've decided to bow out as gracefully as my state of technical obesity will allow.” Which just, why? Why do you need to frame it like that? Fat people are graceful. Fuck you. There's no need for talking about bodies in such a gross way. Even though he's making a joke about himself, which I'm sure makes him think it's okay. CorinneI mean, I hate it. It makes me feel really weird.VirginiaIt is really weird. It's like we're watching one man's midlife crisis just unfold in our nation's supposedly most reputable newspaper. CorinneThere is just something confusing about it, too. You wanted this job! Why can't you eat the way you want to eat? I don't know. He makes it sound like he's being force fed or something. VirginiaI do think restaurant reviewing is a job where you often have to eat even if you're not hungry. Like you have to taste things, right? He talked about how he was eating an average of 125 multi-course restaurant meals a year. Which is not how most of us eat.CorinneThat is like, twice a week? I bet a lot of people go to restaurants twice a week. VirginiaBut you don't necessarily get appetizers and cocktails and dessert every time, because you don't have to try the whole menu when you go. And let's see, 52 meals a year... it would be 104 if it was twice a week. So it's two to three times a week. CorinneOkay. It's a lot.VirginiaSo I agree there's an open question of: Did eating this way take a toll on his health? Possibly. Does he need to make it all about his weight and make lazy fat jokes? He doesn't. We don't need to do that. And do you need to tell America that the reason you're quitting your job is because of health reasons? I don't know that this was news. A lot of people quit jobs after 12 years. I don't care.CorinneAnd a lot of people quit job for jobs for health reasons, and then don't write weight loss stories. VirginiaThat was the other layer to this piece last year that really bugged me. He talked to other former restaurant critics, including Adam Platt, who was at New York Magazine for a really long time. And Adam Platt called the job "the least healthy job in America." I'm sorry, sir. You are not an underwater welder. You are not working at coal mines.CorinneProfessional athletes come to mind, too. Football players. VirginiaThe least healthy job in America? You get to eat in beautiful, comfortable places. You get to expense the cab ride home. You're not being underpaid. You're not being abused. You're not being forced to have sex against your will to stay employed. You're not being held captive in a workplace.There are a lot of jobs that are less healthy than this, sir. And just the total lack of acknowledgement of that privilege made me insane. I find it just so exasperating. Another great quote from Platt: "Your body changes over time. You have this giant distended belly which wants to be filled. All those weird sensors in your brain that cry out for deliciousness are at DEF CON one all day, you become an addict." It's just such a dramatic—and again, super anti-fat— way of talking about your experience with a career which brought you...a lot of success and financial privilege.CorinneIt's troubling.VirginiaSo that is the back story. CorinneA successful white man thought he was fat and decided to quit his job.VirginiaHe felt bad about his body, so he quit his job. That was the tragedy that befell Pete Wells. And now he's back, Corinne! Because he lost 60 pounds in a year!Corinne"An entire basset hound." Doesn't he say that?VirginiaYes, I'm sorry. And trigger warning that we're using numbers. He's using numbers, we're just quoting. “Today, I'm about 55 pounds later than I was at my zenith, a loss roughly, roughly equivalent to dropping an entire male basset hound.” Is there nobody at The New York Times—I am truly asking, as someone who has written for this newspaper, been interviewed for this newspaper—is there not one editor in any of your departments who can spot anti-fat bias? Is there not one person in the copy editing department, or maybe one senior editor reading a draft of this, who would say, "Wow, this is wildly offensive, dehumanizing language to use about people's bodies?"CorinneOr notice how ableist It is against people with diabetes. Because that's what struck me when I read this. VirginiaYes, to Pete Wells, diabetes is a death sentence and a moral failing. It is the nightmare scenario he's desperate to avoid. And I'm not downplaying the stress of managing a chronic condition. But that is extremely offensive to the many millions of people who live functional, happy lives with diabetes.CorinneAnd who don't have a choice to focus all their energy on avoiding it and get a New York Times column to write about how they avoided it. VirginiaLet's talk about after he describes his "basset hound" weight loss. He then says:"...Slimming down was not my main purpose. I never counted a single calorie. Somehow that took care of itself because of the new ways I started shopping, cooking and eating back then, and it more or less stuck to since.”CorinneI mean, could it get any more diet-y? You're selling us a diet.VirginiaIt's absolutely about slimming down. All you're talking about is how unhappy you were that you got fat. Obviously, you care about slimming down. Yes, you were worried about your biomarkers. But if that was all you were worried about, you would shut up about the basset hound! You would not use that phrase. It's so egregious. What's also egregious is that this is the first of four articles Pete Wells will be writing on this theme. We are recording this on January 7. You are hearing it on January 22 which means by the time you listen, there have been two more atrocities that we can't even get into because we haven't read them yet. But I can bet they're crap!CorinneI think it's also kind of interesting to think about this whole thing within the greater GLP-1 era. He doesn't really say whether he's taking a GLP-1 or not, although it feels like he's implying that he's not? And with that, there is some kind of moral judgment.VirginiaThat struck me as well. This first article is all about how to break up with sugar. That's literally a headline in here. Which, again, they stole from a women's magazine from 2005. Like I wrote that! "Break Up With Sugar" is classic women's magazine bullshit. But okay, Pete Wells. When a white man writes it, we get to pretend it's real journalism. CorinneDoesn't he also talk somewhere about how sugar makes you crazy?VirginiaYes, he writes: "And having raised two boys, I probably should have known that going through sugar overdrive many times a day was not producing the most rational behavior." There have been multiple studies proving that sugar highs do not exist, that they do not cause hyperactivity. That is a myth. Restriction causes weird behavior. Deprivation causes weird behavior. Being told you can't have something you want to have causes kids to be cranky and irrational sometimes. But sugar itself doesn't do it. He's really light on actual scientific information. I also have to note the hypocrisy of being so proud he never counted a single calorie, and then he says, "Figure out whether you're getting more than 10% of your total calories from added sugar, which should be the maximum intake." So you have to count some calories to figure out that number. It's all just the classic diet industry playbook. "It's not a diet. You don't have to count calories...Fine Print: Actually, you're gonna have to do a lot of math and be really stringent about your intake." It is a diet, completely. Corinneit feels like an old guy who's realizing that his time on the planet is limited and he doesn't want to deal with the fact that he's not going to be around forever.He doesn't like his body and then tries to adjust what he's eating without counting anything. And then loses weight and then writes a column about it.VirginiaIt's very like... I was about to say big dick energy, and I think I'm going to stand by that?It's the hubris of "This thing worked for me. I effortlessly lost weight. So now all of America, you should do that, too." Because I'm assuming, as a restaurant critic, Pete Wells is pretty handy in the kitchen. He has a nice, generous grocery shopping budget. Since he stepped down from a very time-consuming job, he might have more leisure time with which to make Millet with Corn and Mango and Shrimp, which is one of the recipes. But this is all very much in the tradition of how white guys at The New York Times talk about food. It's very Michael Pollan. It's very Mark Bittman. They all want cooking and eating to be this luxurious aesthetic experience that also makes them effortlessly thin and healthy. And they never really want or need to think about how the labor of making food and feeding people fits into actual lives.CorinneWell, and it's supposed to be so effortless, but—he literally had to quit his job in order to do it.VirginiaAnd devote himself to this whole new way of eating and living in order to have these amazing changes that he's now touting as so doable and easy for anyone to try. If only we all just want to make Roasted Broccoli and Chickpeas with Mole Verde Sauce...which Corinne maybe does.CorinneI mean, as I said, the recipes do look good to me. But they don't look like something I'd be throwing together for lunch.VirginiaI'm looking into it...the roasted broccoli and chickpeas dish says total time is 50 minutes. That's a lot to pull off on a weeknight. I don't have that much time to cook dinner on a weeknight.CorinneWhat's he eating for lunch? Because I just opened my fridge and ate a plastic wrapped piece of cheese. VirginiaListeners don't need the full back story, but we had some extreme technical difficulties today, and before continuing this conversation, I stood in my kitchen and ate a spoonful of Nestle cookie dough straight out of the fridge.CorinneThat was me with plastic wrapped cheese. VirginiaI was like, Enough of this day. This is what this needs. There was probably more than 10% added sugar in the cookie dough. I'm going to guess. And that might be the difference between me and Pete Wells. But I am going to cook dinner tonight, and I am going to cook something with vegetables. It's just not going to take me an hour to cook it. We can have both, is my point. He's like, "Either you're a glutton who's eating uncontrollably, or you're living this life of Sheet Pan Coconut Curry with Squash and tofu." There's no in between.CorinneThere's no world in which I follow Pete Wells's diet and end up weighing the same as Pete Wells.VirginiaGreat point. CorinneIt's just not going to happen. Yeah, the recipes look great. And that's not how my body works.VirginiaYou are two different humans with different experiences of being in bodies.CorinneI'm also a lot fatter than Pete Wells, and I don't eat four teaspoons of sugar in my coffee, you know?VirginiaYes, there's a one-to-one-ness. He describes what he considers to be an extreme eating habit—putting four teaspoons of sugar in your coffee—and then he's like, "That explains why I couldn't get out of my car." But it's not a one-to-one. Lots of people are fatter than you and don't eat that way. Lots of people are thinner than you, and eat more sugar. And again, can we not need to lean so far into the ableism and the fatphobia with your descriptions of your experience in your body?CorinneThe blood sugar stuff really riles me up. He writes, "Sweet potatoes are called sweet for a reason, but I don't think twice about eating one for dinner, because they're fairly gentle on blood sugar.” Did you test your blood sugar before and after? Like, how do you know that? You're just parroting something you saw on Tiktok?VirginiaHe's like, this Tiktok gym bro seems fine with sweet potatoes, so I guess they're good for me. Let's also note he was only ever pre-diabetic, which is a term that's murky at best. A lot of folks get fear-mongered about pre-diabetes who are not actually on the cusp of diabetes. We don't know, that's Pete's business. His body, his choice. It's just the need to mansplain to the rest of us and develop an entire month-long eating plan series. That's what we're balking against. If he was unhappy with his experience as a restaurant critic, I'm glad he's made some changes that make him feel happier in his life. But he does not need to lay it out in this way, to use this incredibly offensive language to talk about bodies while he works through his own personal demons there. We don't need it. I hate it a lot. What do you think is going to be in the next few weeks since we're recording this right at the start?CorinneI am So curious. I have no idea. VirginiaI feel like I have some ideas. CorinneOkay, tell me.VirginiaProtein. CorinneOkay, yep, yeah. Sorry, my bad. Protein. Obviously protein.VirginiaHe's got to do a protein week. If this was the breakup with sugar week. I think there is going to be a get married to protein week. Okay, what else do I think? Oh, ultra processed foods. He's going to do a week on getting rid of ultra processed foods. And how would we like to round it out? Let's see, what else do we have on our diet industry bingo card? It's just food, so he's probably not going to get into weightlifting.CorinneWell, I think fiber, but that's kind of in this one, right?VirginiaYeah, fiber could round it out. CorinneI'm feeling fiber is having a moment? VirginiaWell, I think that'll be fun to see as these columns continue to come out over the months.[Post-recording note: Our predictions were off! Pete went more retro with this piece on shopping the perimeter of your grocery store, and this one on mindful eating, again mining mid-2000s women's mags for cutting edge advice.]CorinneWe should do like a little Pete Wells bingo.VirginiaEvery time he says something fatphobic—oh, wait, your whole card is full. Everyone has bingo. Well, I'm glad we got to rant about this. I hope this is cathartic for folks, because, this is a real piece of garbage journalism in a newspaper that is increasingly going downhill, but really likes to reach new lows every time it can. I want to hear what folks think. And you know, if this was a whole new to you topic, don't go read it. I will gift link the article, but it's fine. You don't have to give them clicks if you don't want to is what I would say. CorinneGood advice. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterVirginiaAll right, let's bring it up with a Butter.CorinneAll right, I'm going to Butter a book that I just finished reading. It's called The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny. I started listening to it on my drive up to Oregon and finished it on the drive back. It's pretty long and kind of slow at times. But in the end, I really loved it. It's a romance, intergenerational story of their lives, kind of thing that takes place between India and the United States and some other places. There is kind of like a mystical element, but it's very beautiful, and I would definitely recommend it if people are looking for a long read.VirginiaOkay, your book recs are always good.CorinneYeah, might be good for your book club.VirginiaI'm going to do a book Butter, too! I think you would really like this one. It's called The Road to Tender Hearts by Annie Hartnett. This is why I feel very confident with this recommendation: Kate Baer told me to read this book so it's a Butter for me and Kate Baer so, you know, that's two solid votes. She recommended it to my book club. It's about this man PJ, in his 60s. He is estranged from his wife and his daughter. This is not a spoiler alert, but it is a trigger warning: One of his children has died, and he's still processing the grief of that loss. But I don't usually read books where kids die, and I could handle this book. So that's your context. He's also a like, raging alcoholic and a lottery winner, and through a variety of circumstances, he ends up acquiring these two orphaned children, and then they all go on a road trip together across America with a cat named Pancakes. And it's just, like, incredibly heartwarming and beautiful and funny and sad and all of the things. It's a very specific style and I really, really loved it. I couldn't put it down. I finished it, like, two weeks ago, and I still keep thinking about the characters.CorinneWell, I'll definitely be reading that. VirginiaI think you would really like it.So everybody read some good books, and don't worry about Pete Wells. And I think that's how we get through the rest of January.CorinneDon't go on the Pete Wells Diet.VirginiaTruly, don't. I mean, or make the chickpea thing if it sounds good to you, but like, live your life. Don't get caught up in his nonsense. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You're listening to Burnt Toast! I'm Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with the one and only Melani Sanders. Melani is a digital creator and the fearless founder of the We Do Not Care movement. If you are a woman in your 40s, 50s and beyond, you are very likely already in this club. Melani's viral club meeting videos, where she runs down a list of everything "We just do not care about anymore," are the kind of thing that my friends are constantly sharing and dropping in our group chats, and I'm sure it's the same for you. Melani perfectly articulates the pressures we're under, and when she names it, it feels easier to let it go. So I loved this conversation. Welcome to the Burnt Toast chapter of the We Do Not Care Club. Let's get this meeting started.If you enjoy this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work!Join Burnt Toast!🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 228 TranscriptMelaniHello and welcome to all members of the We Do Not Care Club. I started this club for all women in perimenopause, menopause and post menopause. We are putting the world on notice that we simply just do not care much anymore. This is a special body liberation edition. Yay.VirginiaI'm so thrilled to have you here. I just love your work, and I'm a huge fan. So thank you for doing this.MelaniThank you for having me. VirginiaWell, you just kind of exploded into all of our lives in the last year. Where did the We Do Not Care Club come from? What's the origin story?MelaniThis was something that happened by chance. I was at Whole Foods in the parking lot. I was waiting on Whole Foods to open up because I was out of ashwagandha. Ashwagandha has been a huge part of my perimenopause journey. It is my prerequisite to life, that and coffee and a few other things. I got to have that. It helps me to feel more stable. I realized I didn't have any more. I woke up, and I keep it on my nightstand, and I turned the bottle over to look for some. And I pulled the cotton stuff out, and I said, 'Oh, crap.' And it was about seven something in the morning. They weren't open until eight. I was in the parking lot when it opened. When I got back in the car, I popped open my ashwagandha. I took the ashwagandha, and I looked at myself in the mirror. I honestly just didn't care much anymore. I didn't comb my hair. Everything was unstructured. I had on a bra that was half the size of my boobs, and it was, it was all out of order. And I didn't care that I didn't care. And I thought, I'd been a creator for a while, for over four years. And I said, 'You know what? Maybe I could start a club called a We Do Not Care Club.' And I hit record and I asked, "Did anyone else out there feel the way that I did, and if so, join me. Join the club." And sure enough, by the time I got home from hitting that record button, my phone was blowing up. It was blowing up. The notifications: "Absolutely, I want to join, I want to join. I want to join." Yeah, I'm in it, I'm in it.And sure enough, my platform grew to maybe about 500,000. The WDNC is at 6 million now, across all platforms. VirginiaUnbelievable.  MelaniI was gaining hundreds of thousands of followers per day. VirginiaOh, my God. How are you? Because that's a huge shift in your life.Melani Yes. In the beginning, I was very scared. I've freely shared emotionally what this is doing for me, mentally, all of it. I'm just openly sharing because I'm just a girl in perimenopause, and I hit record as it was happening. I didn't quite understand it, because when you get new followers, it's like, 'Oh, I got 100 new followers. Yay. That video did well.'But when you look and you're gaining hundreds of thousands of followers per day, it's like, 'What is going on?' I was trying to be sure, like, did something else come up besides this video? But then, typically, I'll post and I’ll post on several platforms at one time, and they were all going viral. They were just going. So it scared me. And honestly, in the beginning I ran because I wasn't the content creator that showed up every day doing a lot of content. Sometimes I don't post for a week or so. VirginiaYou're living your life. MelaniYeah, I'm living my life. I'm not stuck to my phone or to social media. I got very nervous, because look at me running my big mouth. I started a club and now I'm not even all there. I don't even know who I am most days. So how's this going to work out? I think I've migrated from scary to just a bit nervous. You know, this is the internet, and there are so many things that are so out of the box. It's very surreal. Very surreal.VirginiaWell, I feel like it blew up because you voiced something that so many of us are experiencing and didn't know how to voice. It's a good kind of blowing up. You're giving voice to this thing, women's experiences in our 40s and 50s and beyond are not talked about. It's not made visible at all. But I can imagine it's, yeah, coming with quite a cost to you personally. So thank you for your service on behalf of all of us.MelaniWell, thank you. The one thing I do want to add is that I feel as time has gone on, I've felt like I was meant to do this, if that makes sense. As I cry openly. I cut my computer off for a while. I really just examined everything that was going on in the sisterhood, all of the comments like, what do they see? What do they hear? And to your point, just being able to say things out loud. I'm getting stronger in that. But before this happened, balance was something that I really, really, really tried to master, if that makes sense. And just paying attention to Melani and what it is I need. I was on this journey before WDNC started. So now that I'm here, it's like I can apply all of those things that I have been trying to do to make my life better. I'm able to take that and put it into WDNC.VirginiaOne of the themes of your content that resonates with me really deeply, and I think with the Burnt Toast listeners, something we're always talking about is how to let go of perfectionism and these expectations that are put on us as women, as moms, especially around cooking and other domestic labor. One of my favorite entries on the list recently was 'We do not care if we said we were cooking dinner this morning. That was this morning's energy, and this afternoon is different.' And I was like, yes, that is how I feel today. Thank you. MelaniAbsolutely. That was when the coffee was hot.VirginiaDoes naming these specific things that you want to let go of, does that actually help you let go of those expectations for yourself?MelaniYes. The announcements are comprised of me and my thoughts, but also the sisterhood. I take a lot of the content from that. So collectively, if our sisters don't care about that, then we don't care about it either. And yes, it definitely does. What really helps is just we are all high fiving each other, and it's like, like you just said about the kitchen and cooking and all of that. Yeah, it feels good to know I'm not the only one.VirginiaWe're all not cooking dinner tonight.MelaniIf you're hungry, the kitchen's not locked. Figure it out. Figure it out. We got stuff to figure out.VirginiaThe main thing at Burnt Toast that we don't care about is diet culture. We are trying to make peace with the bodies we have now. We are trying not to keep chasing the dreams of the bodies we maybe used to have, or never had, but thought we should have. What are some of your favorite body related things to stop caring about?MelaniOne, and I speak about this in the book, in The Official We Do Not Care Club Handbook, is my arms. It's one thing that I have been so… I've kept my arms covered up, no tank tops, for years. I have a 24 year old, and when I when I got pregnant with him, my body stretched out a lot, and I got a ton of stretch marks on my arms, and then I ended up having surgery some years later, under my arm, so I just felt like it just looked bad. And I covered it up for a very long time. And after starting the We Do Not Care Club, I really just started to take inventory to be sure that I'm living up to what I'm saying. And I said, 'You know what? I'm about to go put on one of them tank tops, and I'm going to go to TJ Maxx.' And so I walked into TJ Maxx with my tank top on, and I looked around, and I'm trying to figure out who you know. I know they're looking, they're judging, and nobody really gave a damn about my arms. I'm the one that cared so much. So now it is what it is, darling.VirginiaEverybody deserves to not be hot and sweaty. Tank tops are great. MelaniEspecially in midlife, tank tops are life. You look at how many years--my son is, 24 years old, and I went through all of this time, and it was in that moment where it's like, 'Girl, don't nobody care. You better show your arms.'VirginiaYou have a right to show your arms. It’s just a body. MelaniIt sounds so easy, but mentally for many of us, it's not. We know we will judge ourselves. We're waiting to be judged. We're comparing ourselves, and it's like the hell with all of that. VirginiaIt's true that there are times body things do get commented on. One of mine is the way I gain weight. I get mistaken for pregnant quite often. I carry my weight in my midsection and it's this awkward moment that for years, I was like, 'Oh God, am I going to look pregnant in this dress? Someone's going to say something. It's going to be this weird conversation.' And then I was like, 'Well, that's on them for saying the rude thing to talk about.' If they feel uncomfortable in that moment that is not my problem to worry about. They're the ones commenting on someone's body when they shouldn't be. And that really turned that around for me.MelaniYeah, exactly. The one thing that I really focus on now as I study the sisterhood is empathy. I have this saying, and the saying is, 'If our sister's coochie is dry, then we all have dry coochie.' And it pretty much means that her story is our story, and not everyone has that quick confidence or that ability to just turn it off. You know how some things just come so easy to some people, and it's like, it sounds so good, but then it's discouraging, because it's like, 'Damn, why can't I just let go of these insecurities?'I'm okay with being vulnerable. I'm okay with it. It's fine, although I still do have my insecurities, such as showing my arms. But I think together, just being able to share this stuff, we get stronger together. You know what I was going to do, and I might still do it. I think I'm going to go live and I'm just going to sit up there and show my arms, my under arms. VirginiaI love that. MelaniYou think? Well, seriously, I think I'm going to do that, and then, or maybe I can start a challenge or something, and it's like, post what you're most embarrassed about? And then I'm normalized, yeah, let's not, let's normalize it. How about it? Yeah, wow. I had coffee earlier, so I'll probably just wear out in a little while. But the inspiration is there now. No, seriously.VirginiaWe're recording at 9 A.M. There are a lot of big dreams.MelaniYeah, by 5 P.M., it's like, 'No, not doing it. Get out my face.'VirginiaDon't want to show the internet my arms today. MelaniThat's dumb.VirginiaBut I love the intention behind it. And you're right. I think it's making space for 'we are allowed to show these parts of our bodies and not feel shame' and not downplaying actually how difficult that is in a world that's been throwing us these messages our whole lives. You didn't think of the idea that you should feel bad about your arms, that's a society wide message that you've been fed since you were a little girl. So it is really hard work to stand up against that, and not every day is a day to challenge the patriarchy in that way.MelaniYeah, exactly. No. I was joking, but I do think I am going to do that. I think I'm going to start a challenge, and I think that that's going to be good.VirginiaI think it's a great idea. So you mentioned the book, The Official We Do Not Care Club Handbook. Would love to hear a little more about this. The main thing I know is that the dedication is to the asshole who told you you had a computer box booty. So I read that and was like, 'Okay, well, I'm ordering it for everyone I know.'MelaniYeah, that was the intention behind it, for sure. And I wanted to preface it with that, we can have some words in it, but it's a bit of fun. It's what Melani is, and what I'm comprised of is there's a very humorous side to me, there's a very serious side to me, and then there's this educational part to it. So I think that we have to be sure, as we're going through this stage of life, in perimenopause and beyond that we can definitely say what we don't care about, but then we also need to have intention about what we do care about. Let's have fun with it. Let's have fun with it and talk about why we do not care what the back of our hair looks like. It's the front that matters. That's what we can see, and being able to be okay with that. But then, we have to still just kind of pay attention to how that affects us mentally. Like, we do not care if our room is junky, but at some point we want to be able to clean up that room and to dive into it a little bit. So it's just bits and pieces of some fun. Some pieces where it's like, 'Come on, girl, let's get up girlfriend.'And I'm sharing this through my own personal journey, from childhood to where I am now, and how I put over the years, a lot of expectations on myself, and now that I've reached midlife, it's like, as we said, the kitchen is not locked. That was a priority when I was raising a family and trying to be that perfect wife and make sure things are together. Now, it's like, 'Baby, I'm in survival mode. I don't give a damn about what y'all have going on over there right now.'Reprioritizing is where we have to be, and be okay with it. We're at capacity. We're at capacity. Don't add anything else to our plate. If anything, take something off. So that is the gist of The We Do Not Care Club Handbook. VirginiaI think a lot of what you're articulating is this larger inequity. I don't see a man launching a We Do Not Care Club. I don't think they need it in the same way. I don't expect a midlife dad to because he's been getting to say 'we do not care' his whole life.MelaniSince birth.VirginiaRight. He's been allowed to not care. And I think what I love about what you're saying there is, like, we're allowed to say we do not care about these expectations. But we can care about ourselves. We can care about our own values. And it'll benefit us to clean up the room at some point. But doing it because people are coming over and they're going to judge us, that's a different conversation.MelaniThat is exactly what the We Do Not Care Club is. Because we just have to come to a reality, you know, and be honest with ourselves. Because the pressure is real. Nine times out of 10, most things that we're doing in life is like, we do it because of what it looks like or feels like to others versus how it looks or feels to ourselves. Just being able to just migrate to that mindset of not caring if my house looks like this. And you want to come to my house? This is how my house looks. If you have judgment, don't come. But if you want to clean up, go ahead, get the broom. But before this, I would be like, 'Oh no, they're coming over. Let me run and do this, and run and do that.' And it's like, why am I driving myself crazy? Yeah, I'm already not all there sometimes. VirginiaAnd if they're really your friends, they'll come and sit with you with the laundry basket, like they don't care. That's the other power of the sisterhood you're building is we're all saying to each other, 'Oh, wait, you don't care about that either. Oh, great. We don't have to be more expectations on each other.'MelaniThat's right. It feels so good when you can just be around someone and you're not worried about them judging you or comparing yourself to them, or vice versa, and just live. There's such quality in those type of friendships.VirginiaMy group of friends now in my 40s, is just everything. These are the women who, like, have held you through so many hard things in your life, who are like, we're showing up for each other, and especially now in this life stage with parents who are sick and dying, or teenagers going through their big feelings, just all these really, real things. I do not have time to care if my house is perfectly decorated for the holidays.MelaniI'm so happy that you have those friends. I would say that I do, too, but so many of us don't. And hopefully in this sisterhood, we can find that connection with other like-minded sisters. And it's like, 'Hey, you can find your tribe here.'Because we end up - the pressure, the stress of caring so much - many of us internalize that. I was reading about this with suicide. As far as the suicide rate, it's because there are all these bottled up feelings of comparison, rejection, and not being accepted, all of those things. And I just hope that this is opening up the door to be able to be okay with who you are, where you are, and what season you're in. It's okay.VirginiaPart of the expectations game has been that you don't talk about what's really hard, right? Someone asks, 'How you doing?' You say, 'Oh, I'm fine.' 'Oh, hanging in there, you know.' And you don't really get into a real conversation. I think women are taught that we have to protect the marriage, protect the image of the perfect family, to the degree that then we don't let people in when things are hard and that's really dangerous.MelaniIt really can be. It really can be. And like you said, we're the nurturers, we're the protectors. Men are there, and thank you so much, men, but we have to really be the ones to keep it all together. And we're the ones typically that are falling apart.VirginiaIs there anything you've let go of? You talked about the arms. I'm interested if there's any other things that you used to really put pressure on yourself to do that now you're like, 'I've fully stepped back from that.' And 'Wow, I can't believe I used to care so much about that.'MelaniI think I'm a work in progress as it relates to not caring. I think it's more of a reminder, because subconsciously, I think we do a lot of things that we don't even realize that we're doing. Then it's like, once I sit with it, the quieter I become, the more empowered I become, and also the more aware I become. I think with me, body image has definitely been one. And maybe the clothes. I'm not really chic and aesthetic and I'm about to go on this tour. It's like, what am I going to wear? Because I got some jogging suits in there that I could throw on, you know? And I'm okay with that. VirginiaBe comfortable. MelaniYeah, be comfortable. Some things I'm extremely vulnerable. I don't care. But, like I said, subconsciously, I don't even pay attention to some things that I might be a little bit ashamed about, or worrying what people think of. I was trying to think of an example. A lot of it comes around, like, cleanliness around the house. Like, my baseboards. I looked at them the other day, and I'm like, 'Good lord!' And then I kept walking.VirginiaI don't consider the baseboards to be my business. They're on their own journey. MelaniThey are. VirginiaThey are not for me to know what they're doing. MelaniYeah, that's their life. This is our life. VirginiaMy eyes are up here. I'm not down there looking at them.MelaniYeah, stay in your lane. We stay in our lanes. And so that was a lane that I definitely bypassed and kept going because I can't care. One day.VirginiaFair enough. So you're publishing this book in January, and January is honestly, historically, a time of, like, so much caring, right? Like, this is when people are like, I'm going to start the diet, I'm going to start the new workout routine, I'm going to be a perfect, healthy individual and organize every closet. Was that deliberate to publish in January, to give us a little bit of an alternative? It’s like, you're giving us a really useful counter name, right?MelaniThis is going to be real helpful, right? VirginiaYeah, I think people need to hear it in January most of all. No, you don't have to go so hard, like, pace yourself.MelaniYeah, pace yourself. And it's so funny. The word "pace." I started therapy last year and my therapist, she wanted to come up with a word with me. And every session I would go, I go weekly, every session I would go, and I could not come up with that word because a lot of them were so cliche, like "intentional" or "growth," or "finding," whatever it is. But when she came up with the word "pace," I said, 'That's it.' I mean, for sure, this year, I have told myself so many times you have to pace yourself, pace it. So, unintentionally that word is my word. But as it relates to the intention behind the date? Nope. This book got started in June. Harper Collins, they are under the Harvest imprint. They crashed this book. They crashed it. And it's like that, 'We need it. We want it bad. It needs to get out here.' And I was like, 'Okay, I don't know the first thing about writing a book, but I can run my mouth.'VirginiaI'm not surprised they crashed it, having been in book publishing for a long time, I had a feeling that's what happened to you. It makes sense they want to get it out here right now, in this moment where we're having this conversation about your work. But I actually think the January timing is very smart. MelaniYeah, I like that you said that.VirginiaUsually by the end of January, everyone's exhausted because they spent the whole month trying to, like, not eat sugar and not drink any alcohol. I mean, maybe some people should not drink alcohol, but, like, they don't necessarily serve us to put all that pressure and external expectations on ourselves. So for you to be publishing a book that's like, 'Hey, here's another way to go.' I think it's brilliant timing.MelaniI'm so glad. It's funny because I did not put those two together. Yeah, January is definitely the year to start over, new me, new year, new everything's going to be perfect. And then by February, it's like, okay, let's scale that back a little bit. Did I say that?VirginiaJanuary is morning energy.MelaniYeah, right, it is! I like that. January is morning. So, what is February? February, I think around noonish, we're on that decline.VirginiaMarch is dinner, for sure. March is, we're ordering takeout. It's like, oh my god, winter's not over yet. And yeah, this is brutal. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterVirginiaWell, to wrap up Burnt Toast, we have a segment we call butter, which is where we each talk about something we've just been really loving lately. Like, what is buttering your toast right now? And it can be a TV show or a book or something. It can also just be, like, a color I love, or, something funny someone said, like, anything that's brought you a lot of joy recently.MelaniSomething I would say that I'm loving right now is Melani. When this journey first started for me on May the 13th of this year, I was extremely fearful, and I doubted myself, and I said it so many times, 'I'm not enough. I'm not enough.' I had to decide, Melani, if you're not going to be enough, just go sit down. Girl, just go sit down somewhere and be quiet.Or it's like, you know what? Let's dive into this a little bit. And so I've decided that that is what I'm going to do. I'm not used to being at the front of the class. I'm used to being the person that's in the back of the class, or I'll be the one to get things together and definitely put that quality aspect behind it, and to be sure that we meet whatever goal needs to be met. I say I'm the sister that will hold the door for you and grab your pocketbook while you go up on that stage and do your thing. That is me. But I have had to to turn into this to do something different, and I'm being forced to challenge myself. And I wish that I had have had this kind of mindset, or this type of where it wasn't so forced some years ago, because that definitely would have been beneficial for me. What makes me happy now is my mindset towards where I'm going. And you know this sisterhood and collectively how I mean when you go through the comments and you see things, it is the beauty. It's the beauty in high fiving each other. Nobody cares what color you are, what religion you are. What kind of car you drive, what kind of pocketbook you have, what size your waistline is. Who cares? And so it makes me so happy to see that without judgment. So the whole We Do Not Care Club, and I guess myself, and today on this show, actually - it will be the first time that I'm going to give myself my flowers.VirginiaI love that you're giving yourself your flowers. You need them!MelaniI'm going to cry a little bit. I mean, I am really. I am just, no, just really thinking. I'm so thankful. You know, I'm thankful, and I'm understanding my value more. But I'm frustrated a little, just because it took me being forced into the situation. And it's like, damn, I'm 45 you know? If I had to do this at 30? So I pray that younger generations like have that. You don't necessarily have to be forced in situations, you know? If you have that inner feeling or whatever, bring it out girl. Go stand at the front. When you're in the back, get out the back. Go get on that stage. Speak up. Speak up. VirginiaYou don't always have to be the one who organizes behind. Yes, you actually get to have the moment too.MelaniYes, have that moment. And so I'm going to embrace this time. I'm going to do it scared.VirginiaI just think, like, on behalf of everyone who admires you so much and feels like you've given us this gift. We want you to have this moment. Enjoy it. Like, enjoy it for all of us. You know, because you deserve it, and you've really created something super special that we really needed, so thank you.MelaniI'm curious to hear yours.VirginiaWell, I've just been thinking because I was coming to talk to you, and thinking about again, about the sisterhood and the power of all of this. I've given this one in the past on the podcast, but I'm going to give it again to my book club, which is my kind of core group of ladies. We just had book club last night, and one of our members, her mom just passed, and she was coming back from the celebration of life for her mom, and it just felt so good that we could be there to welcome her back with a lot of cheese and a cocktail. Because that's what she needed. It’s been a time, and that we could all like, be together. So I think female friendship - your best friends in your 40s, which is, I'm lucky to have a whole, tier of those people. MelaniYes. And preferably within the sisterhood, the WDNC sisterhood, the bigger this movement becomes. I want to see us everywhere. In different rooms together. And as long as you hear WDNC, you know that this door is open and you can walk through it and you will not be judged.We're all in this together. We're like I said, 'If our sister's coochie is dry, then we all have dry coochie.' It's her story. It's our story. We're in it together.VirginiaYes, I love that. Well, Melani, thank you so much. This was an incredible conversation. I'm so glad to have gotten to, yeah, get to know you and talk with you.MelaniAbsolutely. This was definitely an honor to even you know just everything that's happening, but to even be able to sit here with you, I definitely appreciate it, and I feel empowered like what you got a little magic power over here on Burnt Toast. What is that about? Good Lord.VirginiaThe Burnt Toast is where we're a small group, but we yeah -MelaniYeah, small but mighty, right? And any ideas or anything within the sisterhood? I want to welcome ideas. This is only the beginning. So if you have ideas, sisters, the We Do Not Care, Club dot com, there are going to be places where you can go and just put your ideas in. I'm having teams being built right now because I want all of us to be - just feel heard. Yeah, so, and I'm trying. I am trying my darndest. VirginiaAwesome. Well, we are rooting for you, and everyone needs to go get the book, The Official We Do Not Care Club Handbook. And if you're not already following Melani in all the places, obviously, make sure you do that too.MelaniAt (@) Just being Melani. "Just being Melani" across all platforms.Thanks for listening to Burnt Toast. If you enjoyed the conversation, please support our work with a paid subscription. They start at just $5 a month, and you'll keep Burnt Toast an ad and sponsor free space. Learn more at https://www.patreon.com/virginiasolesmith/join.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it's time for our annual Ins & Outs Episode! This is what we do every New Year, instead of making resolutions or setting problematic body change goals. It's deeply unserious but still satisfies that urge to reflect and make some (fun) plans for the year to come! Listen to hear... ⭐️ The pants Virginia forgot she was wearing. ⭐️ The food trends Corinne is SO OVER. ⭐️ Virginia's new religion!!To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber.Join Extra Butter!🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈This transcript contains affiliate links. If you're going to buy something we mention, shopping these links supports Burnt Toast at no extra cost to you! Episode 227 TranscriptCorinneSo today we have a topic that we have done before. VirginiaI think we've only officially done it once before? But it now feels to me like a Burnt Toast institution.CorinneYes, and that institution is called Ins and Outs.VirginiaIns and Outs for the new year, because it is 2026!CorinneIt's our little way of ringing in the new year and talking about what we're feeling right now. It's not a resolution. It really is a snapshot of what we're thinking at any moment in time.VirginiaWhenever we happen to make the list. I like it because it's the epitome, to me, of anti-diet resolution culture. It's really just: These are things I love. These are things I'm done with. I suppose you could do a diet-y version of this. But we don't, and we encourage you not to.CorinneAnd I think we'll see, perhaps, as we look back at some of ours from last year, how fleeting some of these really can be. VirginiaWhich is the fun of it. So you brought this concept into all of our lives. And I'm very grateful to you, because I do like having a New Year's ritual. The part of my brain that gets excited for New Year, fresh start, blah, blah, blah. That part of my brain that likes new pencils and whatnot, is like, oh, good. I have a thing to do.CorinneI feel like in past years people have done ins and outs like on Instagram. Like they would just do them in their notes app and then post a screenshot of it. And I haven't seen any of that yet this year. It is a bit early, but I'm curious whether that's going to be happening.VirginiaOr if this social media trend is dying. But not here!CorinneNot here on Burnt Toast! VirginiaIns and Outs are still In. For us.All right, should we look back at our 2025 lists before we get into the new lists? Listen to the 2025 Ins & Outs ep!CorinneYes. I'll read yours. Okay, so for 2025: In for you was Bird Buddy. Out was Instagram.VirginiaI do think I've done a lot less Instagram! I wouldn't say it's gone completely, although I am currently in the middle of a spontaneous extended break for the holidays, and I love it. And Bird Buddy, I do still love. I ended up getting one for my mom for her birthday, and we have both our Bird Buddies on the same app. That said, ours is currently on a technical hiatus because we had to switch our wifi network. And I have to re-sync it with the wifi network. And, you know, that's the kind of annoying chore that's going to take you, like, six months to do. But I'm getting there. And bird feeders in general, are still very in over here. We're very into them. We did them all year, and it's a major joy. CorinneOkay, cool.In: bootcut pants. Out: Colette cropped pants. VirginiaDid I even buy any bootcut pants? CorinneWasn't it bootcut Beyond Yoga pants?VirginiaOh, wait. I'm wearing them right now!CorinneOh my God. Okay, wow.VirginiaI guess they're in! I didn't take it any further, though.CorinneAnd are the Colette crop pants still out?VirginiaWell, I think those blue corduroy pants I wore over the fall are the Colette pants. CorinneSo, no.VirginiaI don't know, man. All pants are out for me. They're all out, they're all in. It's ever changing.CorinneOkay. In: air fryer cookies. Out: Tate's cookies.VirginiaWell, I definitely did not stop buying Tate's cookies, even a little bit. But I did make so many air fryer cookies, like at least once a week. So I think pants are always out, cookies are always in.CorinneThat seems fair. All right, In: two pieces. Out: apology ruching.VirginiaI do love a two piece swimsuit, and I don't think anyone needs to ruch. I think your midsection can be whatever shape it is, and you don't need to put bumpy fabric on top of it.CorinneFair. In: buying meat and eggs from the local butcher. Out: buying grocery store meat and eggs.VirginiaI think we did pretty well with this one. I mean, now our eggs are our own chicken eggs. CorinneThat's awesome.VirginiaThe meat we are mostly buying from the local butcher, or we have one grocery store that  stocks some local farm-sourced meat. It's a very bougie thing, but it also, if you're going to be a meat eater, trying to be an ethical meat eater, is, I think, valuable. So I feel good about that.CorinneIn: teal, dark green and pink. Out: light gray.VirginiaIf you could see my house, there's so much teal, dark green and pink in it.Corinne That's awesome. VirginiaI'm really noticing what a stranglehold gray had on home decor from like the 2010s on. And when I go somewhere with a lot of gray now, I'm like, oh, this is kind of sad. And I mean, I had a very gray, neutral house for a long time.CorinneThat's so funny, especially because wasn't the Pantone color of the year was just announced?And it's like... cloud. VirginiaIf depression were a color. Not good. But for me, color is in. Okay, let's do your 2025 list. In: wearing one thing over and over. Out: buying multiples of the exact same thing.CorinneOkay, I'll say I think I did okay at this. I don't know how I did wearing one thing over and over, but I think I did cut back a little bit on buying multiples. Although I have bought some of the same thing in different colors.VirginiaIs that not buying multiples?CorinneWell, I don't know. It was unclear what "buying multiples" was supposed to mean. I think buying multiples meant buying the exact same thing.VirginiaOh, because of scarcity mindset.CorinneYes. And I think I've done better at this.VirginiaIf you're buying multiples, but they're different colors, that feels like a baby step out of buying multiples of the same item. So I give you a gold star.Okay, bird watching is in. Tiktok watching is out. Corinne, how did it go breaking up with Tiktok?CorinneI have not broken up with Tiktok. I am still watching Tiktoks. I did recently start using an app blocker to block Tiktok after 10pm and that is working pretty well for me. VirginiaThat seems great. CorinneAnd I haven't done too much bird watching, but I do still really enjoy passive bird watching.VirginiaDo you do bird feeders? Bird feeders are really great if you just want to passively bird watch. CorinneNo, I should get a bird feeder. VirginiaYou would really enjoy a bird feeder. The key is you hang it somewhere that you already sit, and have a window you can look out of, so then they really are just coming to you. Otherwise, you'll forget about it and you won't fill it. CorinneOkay, let me think about that.VirginiaIn: Decluttering. Out: Organizing.CorinneI mean, who knows. VirginiaI'm confused about how those are different?CorinneIt was based on some blog post I read where she was like, "Organizing is pointless. You need to declutter first." So if your closet is messy, don't just buy new hangers. You actually need to get rid of stuff. VirginiaYou actually could stand to have like, a third less stuff. CorinneAnd I will say I did do a big closet declutter, and it has been helping. So.VirginiaYes, you did, we have not yet seen post clutter, post decluttering, organizing photos of that closet. But we trust.CorinneProbably doesn't look that different to anyone else, but.VirginiaYou know.Corinne Wait, I think I did do photos.VirginiaOh, maybe you did. I'm sorry. Okay, In: accessories. Out: matching sets. CorinneUm, hard to say. I will say, I think this is still true for me. I think matching sets, I really want them to work, and then when I put it on, I just don't feel it.I just wrote this post about sweatpants, and I have a matching sweat top for all of those sweatpants, and I almost never wear them. Accessories are in, though. I'm currently wearing a bandana.VirginiaAnd you've been wearing your new red collar quite a bit. I also struggle with the matching sets. Although I will say Naadam, which is a sustainable cashmere brand that Corinne and I both love, gifted me some pieces recently. (Full disclosure, it was gifted.) And because I've already bought myself several Naadam pieces, I didn't really need stuff. I did get this hoodie that I'm wearing, but then I got Jack a matching set, like cashmere pants and a zippered hoodie. And every time he wears it, I'm like, God damn it, I really want a matching set. This is so cute. CorinneThat's cool. VirginiaHe wears it around the house all the time and loves it. And now I'm like, maybe I do want that? So I don't know. I think I'm coming back around on those. Okay, in was beef stew. Out was pulled pork.CorinneI mean, yes, sure, yes.VirginiaControversial position.CorinneI haven't had too much pulled pork this year. If it was offered to me, I would eat it.VirginiaI made a delicious pulled pork yesterday. Throw it in the slow cooker and put a Dr Pepper over it.CorinneOh, that sounds delicious. VirginiaSo easy, so good.I made beef stew two weeks before that. I mean, this isn't my list, so I'm allowed to have it all. In was passion fruit as a flavor in pastry and desserts. Out, was matcha as a flavor in pastry and desserts.CorinneI mean, I'm still really excited about passionfruit. I did drink a lot of matcha this year.VirginiaI will say neither of those flavors ever come up over here with air fryer cookies.CorinnePassionfruit is so good. I ate a lot of passion fruit ice cream this summer.VirginiaThat does sound delicious.Corinne It was really good. VirginiaWell, when you look at your 2025 list, do you feel like, who was that person? Or do you feel like, yeah, that's pretty consistent with what I'm still into. CorinneI feel like, I remember that person.VirginiaI feel like I stood by most of mine, except being confused about pants. But that's also very universally on brand for me.All right. I feel like we need a drum roll sound effect or something. Tommy drop in whatever speaks to you. Here, it is time for the 2026 lists!CorinneOkay. In: meatballs. Out. I don't know what the out is. I want it to be beef stew, but beef stew could never be out.VirginiaI'm sorry you only get one delicious meat dish per year.CorinneAt first I was like, mac and cheese, but no, mac and cheese can't be out. I don't know what's out.VirginiaVeggie meatballs?CorinneI mean, veggies could never be out.VirginiaOut with a food is a really hard choice. CorinneI know it is. I will say, I'm never eating meatloaf. Meatloaf could be out, but like... I like meatloaf! As a concept. VirginiaYou're not politically or morally opposed to meatloaf.CorinneOr maybe it's like, deli meats.VirginiaI'm sorry. You're not gonna eat a hoagie? CorinneI'm definitely going to eat a hoagie. I was just trying to think of meat in non-ball form. Like flat meats. Meatballs are in. Patties are out. Virginia If you want a hamburger, you'll just make a big round one. CorinneTotally normal.Virginia"Sorry, I only consume ground meat if it's ball shaped." CorinneI was actually kind of wondering if you might have meatballs on your list.VirginiaI don't have meatballs on my list. At this moment, I don't have any food.Corinne Wow. I definitely made my list when  I was hungry, because I have three.VirginiaMy first one in for 2026 is therapy, because I just restarted.CorinneCongratulations.VirginiaThank you. I have been in and out of therapy for years and years, but I've been on a break for a while, and I was like, you know what? It's time to get back to it. The break was nice, but my brain needs it, so I'm back. My therapist was very happy to see me, and I feel good about that. I think all the mental support in 2026, for all of us. Out, this one's optimistic, but I wrote migraines? Question mark because they are my body's primary response and manifestation of stress. So maybe being back in therapy will help cut down on migraines. CorinneI love that. VirginiaWe shall see. But it feels good.Corinne Okay, my next one is In: card games. Out: board games.VirginiaAll right, I respect it. What card games are you into?CorinneWell, this is again, me being slightly influenced by my very current present self. I just went away for the weekend with some friends, and we were playing cards. We're playing a game that we were calling, up, up, up. And then I was trying to google it, to find some finer points. And I think it's called Oh Hell or Oh Pshaw. Something like that. VirginiaThese all have nothing to do with each other.CorinneI was reflecting on how many card games have swears in the title. Oh Hell, Shithead, a lot.VirginiaAnd these are traditional pack of card games that are sold in decks?CorinneThese are using a traditional deck of cards.VirginiaGot it, got it. CorinneI think the traditional deck of cards is nice also, because most people have them. They're easy to get. VirginiaSuper easy to travel with. And you can do a lot.CorinneVersatile. You can play so many different games with them. But again, if someone invites me to play a board game, am I saying no? No, I am not.Virginia "Sorry. This year is for cards."I also do like quite a few games that are card-based. I'm a big fan of Quiddler, which is like Scrabble, but in card form. Jack's family introduced to me, and I love it. CorinneWait, you don't need special cards?VirginiaOh, no, sorry. You do need a Quiddler card deck. Their cards are all letters, and you get letters and you make words. So it's like a more portable way to do Scrabble. That's cool and faster than Scrabble. It's fun. Next up is my one food-adjacent one. In for 2026 is the AnyList app where you can put recipes and do meal planning. And Out, I say tentatively and with some trepidation, Instacart. I'm moving away a little bit from my "people need to bring food to my house for me all the time" era. Because I have someone to share meal labor with now. We are using the AnyList app. It's really great. You can dump in your recipes, and it will pull the ingredients out, put them on a shopping list for you. I've always been skeptical of this concept, but I've actually been finding this very helpful for my brain, and especially Jack having the list as well. So if either of us notices something's out, it goes on the list, and then we both know. Shared mental labor, food labor stuff. Big fan. CorinneHow do you put the recipes in? Is it just a link?VirginiaI don't understand the technology. But I do know that now, if I'm in the New York Times cooking app, or I'm looking at the Smitten Kitchen website, or one of the other places I get recipes, if I go down in my phone to "share," a little option comes up to put it in AnyList.CorinneOkay, cool. VirginiaAnd then I go over to the app, and it's there, and then it can go on the grocery list. And if it's a week when I'm not over Instacart, you can even click "add to online order," and it will put everything on your grocery list into Instacart for you. But like I said, I'm trying to live clean now, so. Trying to do less of that, because the fees have really gotten quite out of control, yeah? But there are some weeks where it's necessary, and that's fine.CorinneThose are good ones. All right, my next one is: In is wearing a t shirt over a long sleeve shirt. Out is wearing a long sleeve shirt over a short sleeve shirt.VirginiaMy eight year old is so with you on this trend. They really like to put a t-shirt over a hooded sweatshirt. CorinneOh, cool. VirginiaOr over a really thick buttoned cardigan.CorinneWow. I love that.VirginiaThey really feel like their t shirt collection is getting short shrift in the winter, and while they hear me about weather, they are unwilling for it to be a base layer. They want it to be a top layer. We're also doing a lot of shorts over fleece leggings.CorinneOh, interesting. Okay. VirginiaAnd skirts over sweatpants.Corinne Inspiring. I've been seeing this one a lot out in the wild, and I have yet to really try it myself. I actually feel a little confused about what t-shirt goes over a long sleeve shirt, because I have a lot of plain, colored t-shirts, and I feel like sometimes it's better if it's graphic or stripe or something.VirginiaWhat this trend brings me back to is eighth grade, when my eighth grade crush—Brian Chamberlain, hope you're doing well, wherever you are—always wore a band t-shirt or some kind of t-shirt over a turtleneck. In retrospect, I'm sure this was his mother being worried about weather. But I was like, that is a look.CorinneI do like that look, but I don't really wear band t shirts. So like, what am I doing?VirginiaYeah, do you have whimsical t-shirts, or political t-shirts, food based t-shirts?CorinneI have one t-shirt that has a graphic on the front, so I'm going to try with that one. And then, yeah, I might need to buy some graphic tees. VirginiaMaybe this is the year you get really into t-shirts! In for me in 2026—okay, this one might be controversial, and I'm worried people are going to tell me it's bad ethically. I just want to say right now that if that's true, I don't want to know about it just yet. But you can tell me in a few months. Okay, In for me for 2026 is being really good at credit card points. And out, I hope, will be paying for vacations, because I'm going to pay for them with credit card points. CorinneOh, cool.VirginiaBut I am worried that there's some consumer ethics issue around credit card points? I think I'm doing something bad, but I don't know what it is. I'm being complicit with big banks, I guess. CorinneYou're asking the wrong person. I have no idea.VirginiaI don't know. I'm pretty sure there's a moral dilemma around this that I'm choosing not to look at because I did just book a February trip to Jamaica on points. And I feel great about that. CorinneWell, I like not paying for stuff.VirginiaYeah, not paying for stuff, seems great. My friend Tracy is a points master. She's been teaching me a lot. There's an online course you can take. It's all about opening new cards to get the sign up bonuses, and then knowing how to use your cards so that you're maximizing points. So I'm not spending more, but I am being more careful about, like, oh, wait, I have to pay for that with this card, because it gets more points. Or let me get that bill moved over to a card, so at least if I'm paying a gazillion dollars a month for therapy for everybody, we're getting points on all those therapy appointments. CorinneI feel like I'm not type A enough for this. I would be like, Oh, I forgot I even have this credit card and now there are thousands of dollars on it. So that's who was paying my electric bill!VirginiaThanks, MasterCard! You do have to be really diligent about paying off your balances every month. I feel like it's actually making me engage more with my spending, because I am so petrified that I'm going to leave a balance on a card I forgot about. So I'm being really diligent about checking all of them. And a side perk is that I have spotted some recurring subscriptions to things I forgot about, and I've been canceling some of those. Because now I'm actually looking at my statements a lot more often. CorinneI'm going to do another controversial food one. In: breakfast sausage. Out: bacon.VirginiaThat's going to be hard for the Burnt Toast community. I think we're going to have to really sit with that as a community.CorinneOnce again, I will still be eating bacon. However, I just want to say some things about breakfast sausage. I think bacon gets all the love, and I think breakfast sausage deserves more love. Virginia I agree with you actually. CorinneOne, it's freaking delicious. Two, it's so much easier to deal with than bacon. Much less messy, much easier to cook. VirginiaYou can't screw it up. You're not like, oh, it's too crispy. It's not crispy enough. CorinneAnd I guess that's really all I have to say. VirginiaI feel like it's more filling, too. CorinneYeah. I think you're right in a way. So, breakfast sausage is in.VirginiaI can get on board with this. I like breakfast sausage. I find it hard to find good breakfast sausage.CorinneOh, not me. VirginiaIs there a brand you like? CorinneDoes your grocery store carry Niman Ranch? VirginiaI don't know, but I will look. CorinneIt's a slightly higher end brand. Whole Foods usually has it. But Niman Ranch has really good breakfast sausage. They have a basic breakfast sausage, and they also have one that's like bacon breakfast sausage, and it's freaking delicious. VirginiaWell, there you go. You just combined the best of both worlds. CorinneYes, exactly.VirginiaWe do breakfast for dinner a lot with the kids, and I often do breakfast sausage for the meat, because I just don't feel like dealing with bacon in the evening for some reason. CorinneYes, bacon is slightly annoying to deal with, so that's why breakfast sausage is in.VirginiaBut if other people want to make us bacon, we will still eat it.Corinne Yes, and I'm sure I will still be eating bacon.VirginiaOkay, this next one is a little obscure maybe, or just really only applies to me. But in for 2026 is putting all my lamps on timers.Corinne Ooh. Love that. VirginiaAnd out is basically either having lights that are always on or never on. I love a floor lamp. I prefer floor lamps to overhead lights. I like a cozy ambiance. But I'm tired at night. I can't be walking around the house turning off floor lamps. CorinneWait. Have you gotten into smart plugs, or you're just doing timers?VirginiaOkay, yes, I'm into smart plugs. I got an app on my phone. I can turn all these lights on and off with my phone. And you can schedule them so they just come on on their own and put themselves to bed. And I just feel like more of my house needs to be self-managing. Because there's a lot in my house that I have to be on top of, and I don't really need the living room floor light to need that much from me. I want it to show up, do it's job, be a cozy glow, and then put itself to bed. CorinneMy sister is really good at this.VirginiaYou have to get over the initial annoying 10 minute time setup, and then you're just like, oh my god, this is changing my life.CorinneYeah, I've set them up when I've gone out of town before, so they come on and off.VirginiaThe Home Alone strategy!CorinneBut then I get back and I get annoyed and unplug them, and then I forget what the app is called. VirginiaI can understand that.CorinneBut it is useful to be able to turn things on and off with your phone.VirginiaI also had my electrician put my front porch light on a timer for me, which I think is actually something you could do yourself if you are a more together person. Because otherwise it had just been on for, like, five years I think. CorinneOh, wow.VirginiaIt just never turned it off. And that's not great, so now it's on a timer, and that's making me really happy.CorinneThat's a good one. This perhaps another controversial one based on a product that I recommended in one of our recent episodes. For me, In is body butter--specifically this one made with tallow. VirginiaYes, we did talk about that.Corinne And I apologize for making it sound like I'm a MAHA, but IN body butter, OUT body oil. VirginiaI don't think I've ever liked body oil. CorinneOh, I like body oil, but, you know, I think my skin prefers a lotiony thing.VirginiaThe body butter is like a lotion? CorinneYeah, but it's not in a pump. It's a tub that you kind of swipe. It's so good. The texture is incredible.VirginiaOkay, yeah, I need to get that. In for 2026 which I will say, is a work in progress, is, I am trying to establish a new religion in my household. And the religion, the faith that I want us to all partake in is, which I'm calling church, is that every Sunday morning we get in the hot tub. CorinneOh, I love that. VirginiaFor a religious experience that is just sitting in the hot tub. We do not have any gods or dogma in this religion, but it's proving weirdly uphill to convince my kids we should do this. They're like, I don't feel like it. Whatever. That's why I started calling it church. Because I was like, you guys are like being dragged to church. CorinneReally funny. VirginiaKids I grew up with would always be like, don't make me go to church. And I'm like, we don't do that. I'm just trying to get you to relax in hot water and talk to your mom.CorinneThat sounds nice. I would like to go to that church. VirginiaIt's a great church. And I feel like it's a good way for me to make sure I put some rest in my weekends. I couldn't really think of an out. I put cold plunging, but I would never have gone cold plunging. That was never in for me. That's a terrible idea. CorinneI love to cold plunge. VirginiaYou've done cold plunging!CorinneAfter a sauna or something. I love it.VirginiaI mean, in the winter, you cold plunge from the hot tub to get out into the cold air to go back inside. Does that count? All right, that's all I'm willing to do. CorinneOkay, my last one. And I'm a little bit afraid to say this, is for me, in potatoes, out rice.VirginiaI really like how all of yours were food, and you're afraid of blowback with every single one. CorinneI just don't want to offend anyone, because, you know, rice is really good, as is bacon and whatever the opposite of meatballs is. But I'm really into eating potatoes right now.VirginiaFor me, it's always going to be pasta over both those two.CorinneYeah, I'm choosing potatoes over pasta right now. But I like pasta as well. VirginiaWell, that is hard for me to hear.CorinneI'm just loving potatoes. Potatoes are in for 2026.VirginiaAll kinds. Fries. CorinnePotato girl year.VirginiaPotato girl year. That's actually really good. CorinneYou know, chopped up and roasted. Also, I'm just loving a baked potato, which is not new for meVirginiaYou have been on the baked potato train for a while. That's a good reminder to me to make baked potatoes.CorinnePotatoes are such a good vehicle. VirginiaThey're a great base.CorinneAs are as rice and pasta.VirginiaOkay, that's a great one. I support you. I'm going to still be over here eating pasta, but I support you. Okay, my last one for 2026 in is oral hygiene. To be clear, I've always had good oral hygiene. I didn't just recently adopt oral hygiene, but I have leveled up my game. My dentist has really been on me about my perimenopausal gums. and something we all have to think about a lot in our 40s. Apparently, my oral hygiene has been too good. I was brushing too vigorously for too long, and I've eroded some gum. Yeah, that's a real lie fed to our generation, that you should brush hard. You shouldn't. Anyway. So now I have an electric toothbrush and I have a WaterPik. CorinneOh, cool. I'm so curious about WaterPiks. VirginiaIt has a learning curve. It took me a while, but I've got the hang of it now. And I will say my teeth have never felt cleaner. CorinneOh, that's very appealing. VirginiaThey're dreamy clean. And it's kind of the point where, when I eat lunch and that's not a meal I usually brush my teeth after, but I feel so gross. I want to go floss at least.CorinneA WaterPik is cleaning out between your teeth.VirginiaIn my case, they told me to use it to trace the gum line. People can't see, but I'm making a kind of scalloping motion. You scallop along your teeth, and you have to do the outside, and you have to get in and do the backs of your teeth.CorinneDo you still have to floss? Or no?VirginiaI am still flossing, but that's because I love flossing. So in the morning. I'm doing mouthwash and electric toothbrush. At night I'm doing floss, water pick, electric toothbrush. and so I decided my out for this one is hydration, because I am no longer tracking my hydration, and I'm putting all that same energy towards teeth. I'll hydrate when I hydrate.CorinneThat's awesome. VirginiaI'm realizing I had no clothes ones on my list this year, which is maybe fine.CorinneI only had one which was kind of random. Clothes are out.VirginiaBut also read Big Undies, Corinne’s fashion newsletter.CorinneBig Undies Announcement: 2026, clothes are out.VirginiaI do think clothes are the most changeable often. You're not going to stand by a clothes feeling you have in January.CorinneI think it's nice for clothes to not necessarily be so trend driven.VirginiaActually, that's a nice spin on it. I think I didn't have any clothes that I felt strongly I was over, which means I liked a lot of what I wore this year.CorinneYes, your in bootcut pants from last year are the pants you're wearing right now. Virginia I stuck with it. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterVirginiaWe're going to do Butter, and full disclosure, this is a brand that Corinne and I love. We both shop here, we have both spent so much money at over the years, but they do also send us free stuff from time to time, so it's not sponsored, but there is a gifted element here. So do with that information what you will? CorinneYes. Well, this year on my gift guide, I put the East Fork Bitty bowls, which I had yet to own, and now I have gotten some which actually I did pay for, and I'm obsessed with them. I just want to double down on that recommendation. They're so useful and cute.VirginiaThey are so useful. I have them all over my house because I have a child who takes her earrings off wherever she stands, and then gets mad that she's lost her earrings. CorinneThat's hilarious. VirginiaAnd so whenever I find earrings around my house, which is always, I stick them in the nearest bitty bowl.CorinneThat's so funny. VirginiaThey probably didn't anticipate that as a use.CorinneBut it's so smart. I'm like, oh, now I need one next to my bed. I should put one on my desk. I also sometimes take my earrings off.VirginiaI have one on my kitchen counter, because I take my rings off if I make meatballs. So I'll stick them in there. But they are also great if you're putting out a little jam on a charcuterie board, or we eat chocolate chips out of them while we watch TV.CorinneOr, like, a little salt on the table.VirginiaThey truly have endless purposes. And if you're an East Fork fan, as we are, when they release a new color and you're like, oh, I want the new color and you don’t actually need anything, I'll usually get a bitty bowl just to, like, add to the collection.CorinneYeah, totally. VirginiaBecause it's like 14 bucks or whatever. CorinneThat makes sense to me.VirginiaI was also going to do an East Fork butter, because, yes, I love this brand. I am drinking tea out of an East Fork mug as we record. I have their weeknight serving bowl in two colors now, one I paid for, one was gifted. I have the light blue and I have the malachite green, and it's a very useful size serving bowl. I feel like sometimes serving bowls are too big, and feel like overkill. And sometimes they're cute, but kind of teensy, and then you're like, trying to toss the salad, and it's like, falling out of the bowl. The weeknight serving bowl is an excellent size for pasta salads, you could put potatoes in it for sure. All the things.CorinneI'm going to be needing some of those as well. VirginiaAll right. Well, that was a slightly sponsored butter. But anyone who's followed Burnt Toast for a while knows that our love of East Fork long predates when they sent us a few free bowls. So it's coming from the heart. And use BurntToast15 at checkout if you decide to join us in the bitty bowl obsession and get 15% off! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You're listening to Burnt Toast! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.Happy 2026!!! To celebrate—and kick off the most diet-y month of the year!—we are here with a roundup of the very best anti-diet fitness advice in the Burnt Toast archives. If you find this useful, consider a paid Burnt Toast subscription! We're way cheaper than a gym or a diet app membership, and arguably better for your health too. And in addition to getting behind paywalled episodes and essays, Burnt Toasties get to join our awesome chat rooms like Team CPAP, Anti-Diet Ozempic Life and Fat Fashion! You'll find so much practical support, inspiration, and fat joy. Join us here! Don't diet, come hang with us! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈This episode contains affiliate links. Thank you for supporting Burnt Toast when you shop our links!Episode 226 TranscriptVirginiaHappy 2026! We made it. It's a whole new year. CorinneThank God, honestly.VirginiaSee you later, 2025. Excited to be here in a new in a new chapter.CorinneTo celebrate, we're bringing you a helpful episode to kick off the most diet-y month of the year: A roundup of our favorite anti-diet fitness advice.VirginiaI'm excited for this. I hope this is grounding to people and helps prevent you spiraling off into some new thing that doesn't serve you. We're also holding space for the fact that a lot of people do like fresh start culture. We will be coming to you next week with our annual Ins and Outs episode. So don't think we are immune from resolution culture! That's the Burnt Toast version of it. It's coming. All right. First up, we have an excerpt from an episode called “We Have Only Recently Acknowledged That Female Athletes Need to Eat.” This episode aired October 19, 2023. It's an oldie, but a goldie. And the guest was Christine Yu, author of Up to Speed: The Groundbreaking Science of Women Athletes. And one of the main things Christine wanted us to understand was carbs are good for you.VirginiaI also want to spend some time on your very excellent chapter about diet and sports. This was so well done. It feels like nutritional science, athletic research— all of this research—has only just recently given women permission to eat as athletes, and to eat enough to support their sports. This feels really staggering to me, that there has been this underfeeding of women athletes for so long.ChristineConsistently. All the time. And I think it’s in part because of just general diet culture in our culture and society and these ridiculous expectations that we have or we place on girls and women in terms of what their bodies need to look like. And then you have the sports performance side, you have this idea that certain body types are the ideal athletic body types. It’s almost no wonder that we create this perfect storm and a way for disordered eating and eating disorders and all these other problematic behaviors to take root. Especially because bodies are so central, obviously, in sports and performance. And we focus so much on bodies and how they look, what their body composition is, and all of these different things, the shape of you, all of that.It’s wild to me that it’s only been recently that we do acknowledge the fact you just need to eat. We talked so much about nutrition and sports as this idea of fueling your body, which I think was at first kind of helpful in the way of reframing food within this context. Your body needs fuel to be able to do all this stuff, in order to start to give folks a little bit more permission to eat or feel like they could eat what they needed. But that, I think, even still creates this idea that there’s a certain kind of fuel that you need to be eating in order to be an athlete, in order to fuel your body correctly, if that makes sense.VirginiaIt’s, again, mind blowing, but makes sense that we had to first embrace the idea of eating, period, as opposed to eating being the enemy. You have so many heartbreaking stories from athletes in this chapter talking about feeling like they were so tapped out at the end of a practice that they couldn’t function and that when they started eating enough, they were like, wow.ChristineTurns out!Virginia“I can do a 90 minute workout without a problem!” The fact that they were performing at all when they were being asked to do it while starving is ridiculous. It’s ridiculous what they were being asked to do. Then seeing that immediate and logical shift that if you feed yourself, you can perform better. But then from there, this idea of food as fuel can also become very limiting because, of course, athletes are human beings, as well. And food is more than fuel for all of us.ChristineIt’s really easy within sports and athletics to look at food as almost a hack, in a way. Like, as a way to like fine tune your performance. Oh, I need more iron, or whatever other very specific thing that you need. And again, I think it dissociates food from what it actually is. I think that also just makes it really ripe to encourage a lot of these behaviors that aren’t always helpful or healthy.VirginiaYou also do some amazing work in this chapter dissecting a couple of the modern big diet trends: Intermittent fasting, keto, and you even look at some of the less extreme ones like the Mediterranean diet, and show how they underserve athletes and especially women athletes. I wondered if we could just spend a little time talking about your findings there, because that felt super important to me. ChristineIn the last several years, we’ve seen things like intermittent fasting and keto pop up within athletic communities as this way to make your body a better machine. Especially, I think, within endurance sports, it’s this idea that your body can run longer or you can somehow create these these efficiencies, if you will.But the body likes to be in homeostasis, it likes to be in balance. So anytime energy levels start to dip, your body starts to send out these flares that are like, “Wait a second, hold on. Are we going to be starving real soon?” Because if so, I need to make some adjustments, physiologically. So with a lot of these diets, you’re actually ended up with these long periods of under-fueling your body. With intermittent fasting, you’re not eating for anywhere between eight to many, many hours. So you’re leaving your body in this huge deficit of energy so it starts to freak out and starts to shut down these non essential systems.And the thing with women is that our bodies are much more sensitive to these downturns in nutrition. It starts to send up those flares a lot earlier, it starts to make those those physiological changes a lot earlier. That can have repercussions on things like your menstrual cycle and all the hormonal things that your body does. Similarly, with keto, this whole idea of eating a lot of fat and very few carbs might seem like, Oh, I’m really full, I don’t need to eat as much. But it’s the same idea that you end up inadvertently underfueling your body. But more importantly, especially for women, by not eating carbs, it sends up those same flares to the body. Women’s bodies, in particular, need carbohydrates in order to function well, in order to do all the things it does. And when we don’t have carbs, the body starts to send all these warning signs.We tend to see intermittent fasting or keto “work” in men because it seems like male bodies can get away with that under-fueling a little bit more than female bodies. But when women tend to try these diets they end up feeling, unsurprisingly, really flat, really fatigued, a lot of brain fog. They don’t see this performance boost and then they wonder what they’re doing wrong because all the podcasts, all the influencers, say I should be intermittent fasting. This is going to be how I’m going to lose weight. This is how I’m going to cut time on my race. This is how I’m going to improve performance, improve body composition, all the stuff. But I’m not seeing that. I’m feeling flat. I’m not seeing all these other positive benefits. It’s because your body is essentially saying, ah, this isn’t working for me.VirginiaJust because it works for Peter Attia does not mean—and question mark on if it even works for these guys? Thats the other thing I just want to interject. It might improve athletic performance, it doesn’t mean it’s not having other consequences on their mental health or their relationships with food and body. But that’s fascinating to realize specifically, if your goal is improving athletic performance—one of these diets is not going to deliver for you the way you’ve been told it might. ChristineEspecially the idea around carbs. I feel like carbs still have like a bad rap. People are still really afraid to eat carbs and I just want folks to know it’s not a bad thing. Your body actually needs it. It wants them. CorinneI mean, what can I say? Perennial wisdom.VirginiaPerennial wisdom. Really important. And it's just absolutely wild —the science she gets into about how little female athletes in particular, were allowed to eat for decades, and how much better everybody performs as a human being and an athlete when they eat carbs.CorinneYeah, this makes me sad. Okay, next we're going to hear a clip from an episode called It’s Time To Free The Jiggle. This one aired on December 14, 2023 and our guest was Jessie Diaz-Herrera. Jessie is a body affirming dancer, health and wellness influencer, and fitness enthusiast. You might know her on Instagram as curves with moves or from her Free The Jiggle classes. Jessie's advice is so helpful if you're thinking about starting about starting any new kind of workout or entering a new workout space, especially as a fat person.VirginiaThe first question is:Do you have any tips for focusing on how you’re feeling in your body versus imagining how your body could look? This feels especially hard with dance.JessieThis is a very honest and vulnerable question, but also very real. Especially in any group setting, whether it’s group fitness, group dance classes, there’s always this like, “How am I perceived by other people? How am I looking at myself in the mirror?” and that can be really hard. But dance is an art form, right? So let’s relate it to art, right? Let’s say our bodies are paint brushes. If I’m a paintbrush and you’re a paintbrush, you may have slightly different widths right. And my strokes are not going to be the same as yours, right? But we’re still creating art. We’re both still moving. We’re both still working through this. I think sometimes we like to compare ourselves to other people. Like, “I don’t look like the instructor.” But the instructor is more of a facilitator, right? They’re there to help you and guide you. Obviously, in more fitness classes, there’s a form and there are things that you want to make sure that you’re doing safely. But if it’s a feel good class, if you’re like in a cardio dance class where you’re just there to feel the rhythm and dance or like a Zumba type class and there’s nerves, bring a friend and laugh. Be in the back and laugh.Like, I cannot tell you how many times I’ve been nervous about a class and I’ve taken a friend and we’re like, “We’re just gonna be in the back and try our best but also just laugh at each other if we’re a hot mess.” Let’s give ourselves permission to say, “We’re probably going to mess up and that’s going to be totally fine because we have the intention today of laughing at ourselves and being silly with with ourselves and trying something new.” And you’re just not going to look like the next person, so get that out of your head. Because this is your body, this is what you’ve been given. And how you move in this world is different. So sometimes, especially in dance, when it is an art form, I say own it. Own how you dance. Own how you move. It does not have to look like the the instructor or the person next to you. If you feel good, if you are feeling the energy. I know when I dance, there’s a weariness that goes away. There’s this feeling of “Yes, I just feel so good.” Like, I’m sweating. This is my favorite song. Tap into those other things, too.Maybe you’re not there yet with your body journey. Maybe you’re like, “I can’t stop comparing myself.” Well then maybe you’re thinking about other things within the class, like is this your favorite song? Are you hitting those basses? Can you get that move? Or is the rhythm really hype? Do you want to cheer on the person next to you?  I tell people at the beginning of class, “Hey, if you don’t want to dance, cheer for the person next to you.” Take a water break and just encourage them. VirginiaI also want to say to this person, do some of Jessie’s online videos. Because I am someone who has no dance experience. You know, white girl dance moves—that’s what I’ve got. It is what it is. JessieAll of those are safe here.VirginiaAnd especially being in a bigger body, I would feel self-conscious going into a group dance class. But what was really fun for me was doing Jessie’s videos in a room in my house without mirrors, because then I wasn’t constantly looking at myself and critiquing how I looked. I could just be in my body and I was able to tap into the joy you’re talking about because there wasn’t an audience. I was just doing it for me. If you’re someone who really doesn’t have a dance background, maybe try that first before you do the group class where you’re just going to feel really intimidated and depending on the context, maybe less welcome.JessieI teach kind of a myriad of different classes, but one of our mainstays is called “Free the Jiggle,” and we purposely jiggle. We purposely do things that we would say, like, I’m afraid to do this, we will do it. Kind of to laugh and also in spite of and really to say, why not?VirginiaIt’s a body. It’s moving. JessieYeah, exactly. Bodies do jiggle.VirginiaI really love this. I love embracing that bodies move and jiggle—and everybody's does, straight size, plus size, doesn't really matter. I think this is really powerful. And if you need to do that in the privacy of your own home for a while before you're ready to do that out in some group setting—that is valid, too. CorinneTotally.VirginiaOkay. Next up, I want us to hear from Disability Rights activist and author Emily Ladau. This is from an episode we did last year called I Don’t See Myself in Fat Liberation Spaces.Emily is a wheelchair user, and we had a great conversation about how ableism shows up in fat liberation work, but also in fitness spaces. And a cool spin-off from this conversation is that Anna Maltby, friend of the show, who we'll hear from later in this episode, developed a wheelchair friendly workout for her newsletter How To Move, after hearing this interview and connecting with Emily. Which I love. I love seeing fitness professionals taking wheelchair friendly workouts more seriously. And the big piece of fitness advice I want us all to take away from the conversation with Emily is that sitting down is not going to kill you.VirginiaOne that you put on my radar is all this fearmongering about how we all sit down too much, and sitting is killing us. And if you have a job that requires you to sit all day, it’s taking years off your life.And yet, of course, people who use wheelchairs are sitting down.EmilyI think about this a lot, because I would say at least a few times a year some major publication releases an article that basically says we are sitting ourselves to death. And I saw one I know at least last year in the New York Times, if not this year,VirginiaNew York Times really loves this topic. They’re just all over there with their standing desks, on little treadmills all day long.EmilyI actually decided to Google it before we chatted. I typed in, “New York Times, sitting is bad for you.” And just found rows of articles.Cool beans, NYT.EmilyThe first time that this ever really came up for me was all the way back in 2014, and I was kind of just starting out in the world of writing and putting myself out there in that way as an activist. And I came across an article that said that the more I sit, the closer I am to death, basically.It’s really tough for me, because I’m sure there’s a kernel of truth in the sense that if you are not moving your body, you are not taking care of your body in a way that works for you. But the idea that sitting is the devil is deeply ableist, because I need to sit. That does not mean that I cannot move around in my own way, and that does not mean that I cannot function in my own way, but it’s just this idea that sitting is bad and sitting is wrong and sitting is lazy. Sitting is necessary.VirginiaSitting is just how a lot of us get things done every day, all day long.EmilyRight, exactly.VirginiaSure, there were benefits to lifestyles that involved people doing manual labor all day long and being more active. Also people died in terrible farming accidents. It’s all part of that romanticization of previous generations as somehow healthier—which was objectively not true.EmilyYou make such a good point from a historical perspective. There’s this idea that it’s only if we’re up and moving and training for a 5k that we’re really being productive and giving ourselves over to the capitalist machine, but at the same time, doing that causes disability in its own way.VirginiaSure does. Sure does. I know at least two skinny runners in my local social circle dealing with the Achilles tendons ruptures. It takes a toll on your body.EmilyOr doing farm labor, as you were talking about. I mean, an agrarian society is great until you throw your back out. Then what happens?VirginiaThere are a lot of disabled folks living with the consequences of that labor.EmilyAnd I’ve internalized this messaging. I am not at all above any of this. I mean, I’m so in the thick of it, all the time, no matter how much work I read by fat liberation activists, no matter how much I try to ground myself in understanding that fatness does not equal badness and that sitting does not equal laziness, I am so trapped in the cycle of “I ate something that was highly caloric, and now I better do a seated chair workout video for my arm cycle.” And I say this because I’m not ashamed to admit it. I want people to understand that disabled people are like all other people. We have the same thoughts, the same feelings. We are impacted by diet culture.CorinneSuch great advice. Important.VirginiaEmily made me realize how much that anti-sitting agenda is everywhere, especially in the New York Times, for some reason. They're weirdly obsessed with standing desks there. And it feels similar to wanting to go back to a time before smartphones. Like, okay, maybe it's not ideal that so many people sit so much, but it's the way the world is now. It's what work is now. Unless you're preparing to completely overthrow capitalism and have us all spend our days doing different things. Regardless of ability, most people are sitting so what if we stopped being ashamed of it?CorinneI feel like this is just one of those moments where if you weren't aware of it, now you're suddenly aware of the way that we talk about certain things and how it's really fucked up for a whole group of people.VirginiaFor sure. CorinneNext let's hear from Lauren Leavell, a weight inclusive fitness professional with an awesome online workout program that Virginia is obsessed with. Lauren has been on the podcast twice, but joined us last summer to talk about some TikTok drama that erupted when a thin Pilates trainer made a video saying you shouldn't be allowed to take Pilates if you weigh over 200 pounds. This episode was called Stair Masters Are the Mean Girls of Cardio, and this conversation is a great reminder that you don't have to have the right body for any type of exercise or be really good at any particular sport. You're allowed to just do things because you like them.I think Pilates is a great workout for people who are in, all different types of bodies and diverse bodies. Pilates is super low impact in a lot of ways, and really good for folks who have chronic illnesses, particularly like reformer, because it could be recumbent and you’re not putting a lot of stress on your joints in the same way. So the idea that this workout that’s really almost like super in line with disability and rehabilitation, to say that there’s like a weight limit—again, fatphobia, joining in with ableism—is like, so so off base. So deeply off base.VirginiaFat people can do any workout, but Pilates in particular happens to be a workout that can be extremely body inclusive when it’s taught well.LaurenExactly. I think that that maybe also added to some of the outrage and and honestly, some of me thinking it was very funny.I’m not someone who regularly weighs myself, but I’ve always been someone who was extremely heavy, as a person. Even as a child, there were stories about me versus my cousin who was three years older than me and a boy, and how he weighed less than me for most of our childhood. I have always been so solid. And I think growing up, many of us heard like, oh, that person has the body of a swimmer. That person should play volleyball or basketball or whatever. I’m like, what is this body type meant for? Like, shotput? And then I’m teaching Barre, you know? I think it’s just so made up. And yes, maybe it’s good for people who swim to have long limbs, great. But when we close ourselves off to types of movement based on body types and weight limits, then people have a harder time finding things that they enjoy, because maybe they don’t enjoy something that they “look like they should.”VirginiaJust because you don’t have long limbs doesn’t mean swimming can’t bring you a lot of joy.LaurenRight? Just because I don’t have long lean muscles doesn’t mean I can’t teach Barre. The language around Barre and Pilates is always “long and lean.” And I just feel that’s so funny as someone who’s not long and lean. I love not being long and lean and and enjoying my classes.Some of the outrage did come from that number being named, because it’s a misunderstanding of what real people in the real world weigh when you are not around those types of people. But I also think that there are a lot of limitations put on bodies, particularly larger bodies, and what you can and can’t do. I have another video that’s actually making a resurgence right now, probably because of this conversation that fat people should only do cardio, because if you lift weights, then you might gain more muscle mass, which would increase your scale weight. So you should only do cardio, because that’s how you’re going to lose weight, which is inaccurate and very boring.VirginiaAnd it’s just really drilling into and this was the core of what she was saying. It’s the core of that Melania video, that exercise is only a tool for weight management. That you would only exercise to avoid or minimize fatness, and right?LaurenAnd because Pilates “isn’t actually good for burning fat,” you definitely shouldn’t be doing it if you’re fat.VirginiaYeah, you should be at the gym running. And it’s completely ignoring the many other reasons we would exercise, the benefits you can actually achieve. Because, as you’re saying, weight loss through exercise is a very murky thing for most people. And it’s just ignoring all the other reasons you would do it that are more fun.LaurenYeah, like “I like it.” You’re allowed to like things! But again, if you’re socialized to only know shame and punishment, then the idea that people do things out of pleasure is hard to wrap your mind around.VirginiaYes, I love Lauren obviously. I'm obsessed with Lauren's workouts. but I also just really like how she thinks about this stuff, and I think it shows up a lot in how she teaches fitness. I mean, this idea that only certain bodies should do Pilates or do any sport, is absolutely wild. It's problematic at every level, but especially since most of us are not doing any of these activities with a hope of being the best version of that in the world.CorinneThis one is crazy too, because that was such a huge controversy, and then I completely forgot about it.Virginia It's a good reminder that the Internet is forever, but also these things do blow over. I can't even remember the name of the girl who made that stupid video. We're over it. You can obviously do Pilates if you weigh over 200 pounds. I did some last week. Last we're going to hear from my girl, Anna Maltby, who is an amazing anti-diet trainer, Pilates instructor and health journalist. Anna writes the newsletter How To Wove, which features weekly workout videos, which is what I do when I'm not doing Lauren's videos. Basically, my workout program is Anna and Lauren on repeat, and it's amazing. Anna has also been on the podcast twice, because whenever I find smart fitness people, I do like to keep bringing them back. And she came on last December 2024 to unpack some internet discourse that was happening then about whether core workouts are a scam. And what we distilled is: Strong core muscles are not a scam. They're really helpful for all the things we need to do with our bodies. But if you hate traditional ab workouts, you probably don't need to do those exact exercises to get a stronger core. And more importantly, you don't have to have flat abs to also have strong, functional core muscles. So this episode is called A Pudgy Belly Can Be A Strong Core, and I suspect that is really useful for a lot of us to remember right now.I’ll also just share, as someone who does identify as hating core work, I have come to appreciate it so much more through your workouts and through talking to you about it, because it’s made me realize how much the “I hate core workouts” came from knowing I’m never going to have the visible six pack. Being able to put that down means now I do notice, ohhh, when I get my core properly engaged, my back hurts so much less. Taking the giant bag of dog food in from the curb feels less painful. I get off the floor a lot more easily after giving my seven-year-old a bath. it’s these small things that are really not that small, actually.AnnaYeah, I couldn’t agree more. It’s almost about safety in your body, right? I’m capable of doing these things. I don’t have to feel fear around movement. I’m comfortable moving throughout the day. There’s so much to be said for that. You say they’re they’re small things, but they’re not really small.I really want to encourage people to get to know how their body responds to exercise because of all this noise about aesthetics, we haven’t been trained to notice these more internal or intrinsic kind of things, but if you can tap into functional changes, or just how you feel moving through the day. Are you waking up a little less creaky? Are you able to pick that thing up, or are you able to bend down into the bath more comfortably?VirginiaShampooing a fast-moving seven-year-old is quite the core workout, in fact.AnnaWrestle them into their jackets and all that stuff. This goes back to the central question of why is the myth of visible abs so frustrating? There are so many other things that not just abs, but a functional and strong body, can do for you. To me, those things are better motivators.I exercise also because of back pain. What got me started on exercise, and got me sticking with exercise, was that I was throwing my back out all the time. And I do that a whole lot less if I’m active regularly. And that’s a really good motivator, and it is achievable and it’s noticeable. And I get punished if I’m not doing it, because my back hurts.VirginiaYep. It’s a real one to one connection.AnnaWe have to also talk about people who do need core-specific exercises. It’s a bit more of a rehabilitation focus, but that might include people who are recovering from an injury or surgery. And especially people who are recovering from childbirth, whether that’s a vaginal birth or C-section. A pretty functional body who’s not in that situation, they’ll get really great core work from whatever the else they’re doing, chances are. But in these situations, I do think that isolating your core and targeting your core muscles from a rehabilitative standpoint, is really important. And I think if, like those of us who are who are listening, who’ve had a baby at home, like a brand new baby that they gave birth to, have probably had that experience of like, “Oh my god, where, where are my abs? Where is my core?”VirginiaThey have left the building.AnnaI can’t do anything. They’ve left the building. And it’s temporary. It’s okay. They will be back. You need to heal. You need to recover. But it’s kind of funny, because you’ll get the advice that you shouldn’t lift anything heavier than five or ten pounds or don’t pick up anything heavy. Try not to do anything until you’ve had more time to heal. But like when you have a new baby at home, you’re picking up and putting down a growing babyVirginiaPlus a car seat!Anna75 times a day. I just remember nursing in bed and then trying to get up out of the bed while holding the baby, and you’re basically doing a weighted sit-up. It’s so, so brutal. And it’s not realistic to say you can’t do any of that stuff until you’ve rehabilitated your core. You need to be able to live your life. But I think that working with rehabilitative exercises as you’re working through your day to day life, is going to make it easier. You’re going to get better, you’re going to start to heal, you’re going to regain that strength so much better than if you’re just not doing any of the rehab and only doing this sort of demands of daily life.So I want to say, if you’re in that situation—and I think this is also true if you’ve had some kind of abdominal or pelvic or hip surgery—and you’re recovering and you have to have that rest period, rehabilitative exercises can be really, really supportive.VirginiaWhat I’m thinking as you’re talking too, is how all of these benefits we’re talking about have absolutely nothing to do with weight loss. This isn’t about, are you losing the baby weight? This isn’t about anything to do with that.And yet, again, because of the way diet culture trains us to think about core in the past, if I wasn’t losing weight, I wasn’t aware of these benefits. It was harder to tune into these benefits, or if I did notice these benefits, I credited them with any weight loss that was happening. But whether your weight changes or not from exercise is its own separate thing. We could just put that over here. It might happen, it might not. And the core stuff, you can achieve that whether or not the weight changes. And I just want to name that, because I think that’s another place this gets so, so tangled.AnnaYes, I think that’s so important. There’s a wonderful perinatal coach named Jessie Mundell, who I’m a huge fan of. She takes a super inclusive approach. And she’s in a larger body. I think I texted you when I did her postpartum certification program, and I was like, “Virginia! There are fitness models in this program in larger bodies! It’s so helpful. It’s amazing. It exists.” And she likes to say, and I’m gonna gonna get the exact words wrong, but it’s something like, you can have a round, pudgy, poochy, cellulite, diastasis recti belly and a functional core. The aesthetics do not predict the functionality.VirginiaThat’s so helpful. It’s so important. Especially if you have the diastasis or the poochy belly, you just think, “Well, that’s it. I will never have a strong core.” And that can just be defeating to even starting with this kind of exercise. So, so important to name.AnnaYeah. There are elite athletes who are competing with a three or four finger diastasis.CorinneThis is a great episode. Anna Maltby is so smart.VirginiaAnd just like Lauren, se really helps me reframe some of the toxic messages. I had a really troubling relationship with core workouts for such a long time because of diet culture. But as someone who's really prone to back issues, they are super important for me to do. And being able to do them and appreciate the non-aesthetic benefits of them has been really helpful. So I really appreciated this reframing. All right, any final thoughts, any words of wisdom about how you're going to be navigating January Fitness culture? Is the entire month of January a diet, Corinne? Shall we skip it?CorinneWell, I would not like to skip it, because my birthday is in January.VirginiaThat's right! Corinne is turning 40 this month!CorinneYes, I'll be turning 40 and I will be not starting any new fitness programs.VirginiaLove this for you. I'm very excited. Do you ever start workout stuff in January, or do you just, like, kind of try to opt out of that whole piece.CorinneWell, it's funny because I just kind of passed my three year anniversary of starting to go to the lifting gym that I go to. And so I did start that in December, which is very close to January. But yeah, I don't think I'll be starting anything new. VirginiaYeah, same.Corinne It wasn't like a New Year's thing.VirginiaThat'sjust when you went. I don't have any new goals. Maybe this is the year I'll learn to do push-ups? We can always hope, right?Corinne Yeah, why not? VirginiaI don't have any plans to set out specific goals towards them. I feel like in the last year, I did a pretty good job of keeping movement in my life, even when my life was chaos, and that is new for me. Like, often I would have long periods of like, life is chaos, so I don't have time for that, and then my back would go out. So I feel like, if there's anything I want to maintain this year, it's just to keep doing things I enjoy and keep enjoying the benefits of having movement in my life—to whatever extent that makes sense for my life at any given point.CorinneJas your back gone out this year?VirginiaIt did go out over Thanksgiving. That was a bummer. But not as extremely as it has in the past. I was able to get it back on track in like, three or four days. Whereas I've had times where it's like two weeks of I couldn't stand up. It was just like, oh, okay. It's, you know, it needs some extra attention. And I think it was a stress response. ButterVirginiaMy Butter for this episode is that I'm lifting heavier weights now! That has been really exciting. I historically thought of myself as not a strong person. CorinneWait, really?!VirginiaEmotionally strong, whatever. Like, psychologically strong, yes, like, I'm a powerful woman. I know that. But I didn't think of myself as physically strong. CorinneI'm just like.. all fat people are strong. VirginiaWell, okay, I didn't start out life as a fat person, Corinne, so it's taking me a while to step into my power. I still had an inner skinny girl who thought she wasn't strong. But you're correct. And, you know, getting into weightlifting because of Burnt Toast, really, like you being a power lifter got me interested and meeting Lauren and Anna and all that, you know, like, a lot of it has to do with, like, conversations on burnt toast that I got into weightlifting and, yeah, upgraded to a heavier. I actually got kettlebells, two heavy kettlebells.[CW for numbers talk if that's not good for you!]CorinneWait, I want to know how much.VirginiaMy previous heavyweight was 20 pounds, and like when I do deadlifts, or--Corinne20 pounds in each hand?VirginiaYeah, I could do 20 pounds in each hand for deadlifts. So like, 40 pound deadlifts, 40 pound RDLs, 40 pounds for lunges, or farmer carries. And I have even been able to use the 20 pounds with some upper body, like, sometimes bicep curls. I can do that. And so I got two 30 pound kettlebells.CorinneWow.VirginiaI can definitely do both of them for a deadlift and an RDL. I'm working on a farmer's carry, like a grocery carry type of thing. I'm working on them for some other stuff. Just playing around with this idea of oh yes, you can lift heavier. CorinneAwesome.VirginiaIt's super satisfying. CorinneI love that. VirginiaWhat about you? CorinneWell, now I feel like I should have a fitness related Butter, but I don't have one. I'm also going to show you my Butter, and I just have to grab it. VirginiaI'm excited. CorinneOh, okay, this is a Butter that was also sent to me. It is a Butter that I'm giving to my little baby nephew.VirginiaOh, I'm excited to see this.CorinneIt is the cutest little sweater I've ever seen in my life.VirginiaI mean! There's a sheep on it.CorinneIt's from the brand Misha and Puff. This is an expensive baby sweater, let me tell you. It is nearing $200. It's also the softest thing I've ever felt, and it has a sheep on it.VirginiaI mean, so no pressure to your sister, but she has to have like, five more kids so that that sweater can get enough use. Because the thing about baby sweaters is they fit for five minutes. CorinneI know. It's 18 to 24 months. Virginia That's a good range. He'll be able to wear it for a while. But I'm just saying, like, she's got to have more kids now so you can have more cute babies in that sweater.CorinneYeah, yeah. I want to say, like, I was kind of skeptical of, like, a wool sweater for a baby, but it's just like, it's so soft.VirginiaI will say we are very lucky, I have several knitters in my family. So my kids had some hand\knit sweaters, including some handknit sweaters that my grandmother made for me when I was little, that we had handed down. So I think it's a totally great investment. Knitting is an incredible talent and worth supporting. All right, well, I hope this has everyone feeling good about the new year and what's coming up for us. I want to hear about people's fitness goals or lack thereof! We support it all.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You're listening to Burnt Toast! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.Happy Christmas if you celebrate! If you don't, happy Thursday where everything is closed! Either way, today we're taking a look back at your five favorite episodes of the year. If you enjoy the snippets you hear here, why not give yourself the gift of Burnt Toast? In addition to getting behind paywalled episodes and essays, Burnt Toasties get to join our awesome chat rooms like Team CPAP, Anti-Diet Ozempic Life and Fat Fashion! Join Burnt Toast for 2026! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈This episode contains affiliate links. Thank you for supporting Burnt Toast when you shop our links!Episode 225 TranscriptCorinneSo we dropped an episode on Thanksgiving Day, and we're back with another holiday episode. This time we're going to be looking back at your five favorite episodes of the year.VirginiaThis is so fun for me to put together every year. I think this is our second or third time doing it, and it's just really satisfying. Plus the top episodes are not always what I would have predicted! Some are, but some aren't. So a little background before we start: Since we moved platforms—we went from Substack to Patreon-—it was actually incredibly difficult to compare all the usual stats. The way Substack tracks episodes and the way Patreon does it—it's not an apples to apples situation. So this isn't the most scientific ranking. But I tried to find the different metrics we're interested in as podcasters —and I found the most popular episode for each of those metrics. 1. The Episode You Shared Most: Dr. Mara Will Not Sell You A Weighted VestVirginiaSo this one got the most shares on Substack Notes, on Instagram, etc. This is the one that people sent to other people as much as possible. CorinneI was recently recalling this episode because one of my friends texted me to say "What do you think about weighted vests?" And I was like, weighted vests have not gone away. VirginiaDid you say I wear a weighted vest all the time? Because that's what I say.CorinneMy weighted vest is my body. Yeah, I feel like we had a little chat about it. it's one of those things people have got to try for themselves. if you're interested in weighted vest then me being like, "eff a weighted vest" isn't gonna deter you, necessarily.VirginiaNo, no. Well, and they're not harmful. Dr Mara, who is a weight-inclusive doctor and writes the excellent newsletter Your Doctor Friend, was definitely not saying they were harmful. It's just this idea that as a perimenopausal woman, can never be not strength training. it's okay to just go for a walk as well, right?CorinneWell, and also, just the thing of, you need to be at least as lean as possible, but put the weight on your body. Just not as part of your body,VirginiaYeah, only weight you can remove. That's the deep irony. Let's listen: VirginiaOkay, so now let’s get into some related weight questions.I was just told by my OB/GYN that excess abdominal weight can contribute to urinary incontinence in menopause. How true is this, and how much of a factor do you think weight is in this situation? And I think the you know, the unsaid question in this and in so many of these questions, is, so do I have to lose weight to solve this issue?MaraYes. So this is a very common refrain I hear from patients about the relationship between BMI and sort of different processes in the body, right? I think what the listeners’ OB/GYN is getting at is the idea that mass in the abdomen and torso might put pressure on the pelvic floor. And more mass in the torso, more pressure on the pelvic floor.But urinary incontinence is extremely complicated and it can be caused by lots of different things. So I think what the OB/GYN is alluding to is pelvic floor weakness, which is one common cause. The muscles in the pelvic floor, which is all those muscles that basically hold up your uterus, your bladder, your rectum—all of those muscles can get weak over time. But other things can cause urinary incontinence, too. Neurological changes, hormonal changes in menopause, can contribute.Part of my size inclusive approach to primary care is I often ask myself: How would I treat a thin person with this condition? Because we always have other treatment options other than weight loss, and thin people have urinary incontinence all the time.VirginiaA lot of skinny grandmas are buying Depends. No shame!MaraTotally, right? And so we have treatments for urinary incontinence. And urinary incontinence often requires a multifactorial treatment approach.I will often recommend my patients do pelvic floor physical therapy. What that does is strengthen the pelvic floor muscles particularly if the person has been pregnant and had a vaginal delivery, those muscles can really weaken, and people might be having what we call genitourinary symptoms of menopause. Basically, as estrogen declines in the tissue of the vulva, it can make the tissue what we call friable.VirginiaI don’t want a friable vulva! All of the language is bad.MaraI know, isn’t it? I just get so used to it. And then when I talk to non-medical people, I’m like, whoa. Where did we come up with this term? It just means sort of like irritable.VirginiaOk, I’m fine having an irritable vulva. I’m frequently irritable.MaraAnd so that can cause a sensation of having to pee all the time. And that we can treat with topical estrogen, which is an estrogen cream that goes inside the vagina and is an amazing, underutilized treatment that is extremely low risk. I just prescribe it with glee and abandon to all of my patients, because it can really help with urinary symptoms. It can help with discomfort during sex in the menopausal transition. It is great treatment.VirginiaItchiness, dryness…MaraExactly, yeah! So I was doing a list of causes of urinary incontinence: Another one is overactive bladder, which we often use oral medications to treat. That helps decrease bladder spasticity.So this is all to say that it’s multifactorial. It’s rare that there’s sort of one specific issue. And it is possible that for some people, weight loss might help decrease symptoms. If somebody loses weight in their abdomen, it might put less pressure on the pelvic floor, and that might ease up. But it’s not the only treatment. So since we know that weight loss can be really challenging to maintain over time for many, many reasons, I think it’s important to offer our patients other treatment options. But I don’t want to discount the idea that it’s inherently unrelated. It’s possible that it’s one factor of many that contributes to urinary incontinence.VirginiaThis is, like, the drumbeat I want us to keep coming back to with all these issues. As you said, how would I treat this in a thin person? It is much easier to start using an estrogen cream—like you said, low risk, easy to use—and see if that helps, before you put yourself through some draconian diet plan to try to lose weight.So for the doctor to start from this place of, “well, you’ve got excess abdominal fat, and that’s why you’re having this problem,” that’s such a shaming place to start when that’s very unlikely to be the full story or the full solution.MaraTotally. And pelvic PT is also underutilized and amazing. Everyone should get it after childbirth, but many people who’ve never had children might benefit from it, too.VirginiaSo the excerpt we just listened to is Dr. Mara talking about urinary incontinence. The listener's doctor was implying that it was because of their weight. And we were just getting into how many health issues, especially in perimenopause and menopause, you're gonna hear that explanation for. And that's just not always true, and even when weight is a factor, there are almost always other treatment options besides weight loss. CorinneIt also makes sense to me that this is the most shared epsiode, because I feel like menopause is such a hot topic right now.VirginiaOh, it is. And we will continue to see this theme as we talk about our most popular episodes.CorinneOh, interesting, yes, for sure.2. Episode With The Highest Open Rate: You Can Count Your Protein And Still Be Nice to PeopleVirginiaSo for folks who don't know: "Open rate" means the percentage of people on the Burnt Toast newsletter list who actually open the email each time. It's okay, we know you don't all open the emails all the time. But it's helpful for us to know which emails get more or less opens than average. This podcast episode, when it got emailed around, had the highest open rate all year. It was the Indulgence Gospel episode where Corinne and I both talked about the diet-y or diet-adjacent behaviors we still participate in: VirginiaDo you personally have any diet-y somethings, Corinne?CorinneI struggled a little bit to think of some, but I actually feel like I have so many!First of all: Right now, I am wearing a fitness tracker.VirginiaOh my God.CorinneI wear a Fitbit. I love wearing a Fitbit. I am not one of those people who gets into a certain type of headspace about steps. I almost never look at the steps. What I love it for is the sleep tracking. I like waking up and getting a grade on my sleep, which might be—VirginiaYou like being judged first thing in the morning?CorinneYeah! It’s like, good job I did great. Or I find it kind of validating sometimes, like, if you wake up feeling like shit and you’re like, Yeah I didn’t get enough REM last night.VirginiaThis is a big revelation, because I have written pieces critiquing Fitbits, which you have edited and never told me.CorinneI go in and out of it. I will wear it every day for months, and then sometime I’ll take it off and just not put it back on. And this is part of where, like, I’m not addicted to it.I like getting the grade on the sleep. I like the watch element. I’ve never been a watch wearer, but then when I started wearing it and was seeing the time on my wrist, I was like, “h this is actually helpful to not be pulling my cell phone out to look at the time.”VirginiaYes. What must that be like?CorinneSometimes at the gym, I will use the stopwatch thing.VirginiaSure.CorinneSo it has a few elements that I like using that I could use my phone for, but it’s easier to just have on my wrist.Also, I would say I’m very susceptible to supplements, which feels diet-y to me.VirginiaThis I did know about you, because you are an electrolyte girlie.CorinneI’m an electrolyte girlie. I like electrolytes. I like fiber. I’ve dabbled in creatine, which is another gym one.PLUS: CorinneThat one we’ve talked about before because you’ve written about protein girlies or whatever, the growing popularity of people kind of tracking their protein and gotten a lot of pushback on that. Then I’m like, “Virginia, you eat protein powder.”VirginiaEvery day! Every day I have it for breakfast unless it’s like the weekend and I’m making eggs or something fancy. But yes. I am a morning protein girlie. I couldn’t tell you how many grams of protein is in it, but I do know I feel better and more functional if I have a significant amount of protein in the morning time. I have high protein needs then.Another of mine that’s maybe a little more of a mental game I play is when it comes to my exercise routines. As you know, I mostly lift weights, I do resistance training videos, and I walk the dog, and I always have a goal that every week, four of those workouts will happen.But if I know it’s a busy week and I’m not going to get in all four workouts, I think the math I do to decide which workouts I’m going to skip is often rooted in a diet-y place. For example, I’ll never give myself permission to cut the easiest workout.I’m like, “Well, you have to do whatever’s feeling hardest right now in order to feel like you did enough this week.” This is definitely a diet culture holdover, because why not just do whatever workout makes sense for my schedule, or it sounds interesting, and trust that over the course of life, it’s going to be enough? But I’ll feel this pressure that whatever I’m enjoying the least, I still have to do. I don’t know, but I have a weird sort of punitive attitude towards it. Which I often recognize and talk myself out of, but, that’s the starting point. So that’s more of a mindset than a specific habit.CorinneI think when we look at these individual behaviors, sometimes we’re reclaiming legitimately useful things that the diet industry stole from us—VirginiaLike Diet Coke!CorinneLike Diet Coke. So in these scenarios, reframing the intention can change a habit from diet-y to a form of genuine self-care.VirginiaLike you using your FitBit for sleep, not for weight loss.CorinneYes, I remember this episode.VirginiaDo you remember my being scandalized when you shared that you were wearing a FitBit while we were recording?CorinneWhen did this come out? Because you know what actually happened since is that my FitBit broke. It just stopped working. And I think I tried to replace it, and then that one broke, and I was just like, fuck this. So currently living FitBit-free. VirginiaCorinne is showing me her FitBit-less wrists. CorinneI do miss having the time on my wrist.VirginiaWell, they make watches. CorinneI've never heard of that. VirginiaYeah, this is an episode from last January, and we deliberately did it in January because January is peak diet culture noise time. And we were like," let's talk about some of the diet-y things we do," because we wanted to reduce the stigma. Because it's okay that you do some diety things, you can still stand up for fat liberation. We're all just flawed people. And sometimes you can reclaim a diet practice or product, and do them in a non diet-y way! Like, your FitBit relationship really did not seem diet-y to me at all. You could pick it up and put it down again. CorinneOkay, well, before we listened to the clip, I could remember what mine were, but I had completely forgotten what yours were.VirginiaDiet Coke and protein powder! We also talked about how I have a thing where it's hard for me to give myself permission to do an easier workout. So if I'm trying to decide which workout to do, I think I should always do the one that sounds the least fun. I think I've actually made a lot of progress on that issue this year! I really feel like I'm getting a lot of joy out of my workouts lately. So that's good. CorinneThat's awesome. VirginiaI would love to hear which ones other folks are either struggling with. Like, yeah, this is a little diet-y, but you know what? It's fine. It serves me in other ways. I think it's an interesting conversation, and it's good to be honest about it. 3. Episode With The Most Comments: How Much Did You Pay Your Pumpkin Stylist?VirginiaOkay. Next up we have the episode with the most comments, and it's really interesting to see what generates the most conversation. Would you have a guess about which episode it will be, before I say it?CorinneLet me think. I would think it would have been, like, maybe the Mel Robbins one?VirginiaWell, we'll get to Mel Robbins. But no, the episode with the most comments was the one where we talked about my love of porch pumpkins.CorinneWait, that was such a recent one.VirginiaIt was! It's because this was the episode where we talked about our problematic favs. And people really liked sharing their problematic favs. CorinneThat makes total sense.CorinneIs this just like putting a pumpkin on your porch?VirginiaNo, it's putting piles of pumpkins on your porch. CorinneOh, okay, I have seen people do that.VirginiaWait, there was a Wall Street Journal article. I'll find it.CorinneWhen I see people do this, I'm like, I'm tired. I don't have the energy to be stacking pumpkins on my porch.VirginiaAccording to the WSJ, "Families are paying north of $1,000 to create Insta perfect tableaus for porches and yards."CorinneOkay, so how much did you pay for your pumpkin stylist?VirginiaLet me tell you about me and my porch pumpkins. I've been craving this look for a few years, ever since Julia Marcum first posted it. And she bought fake pumpkins, which she just keeps on hand and brings out every year to make her pile of pumpkins. And I was like, well, that's actually a more like responsible way to do it, right? To buy and reuse your pumpkins every year?Except then I priced out her pumpkin collection, and it was like, $800 and I said to my then-husband, like, should I buy all these pumpkins? And he said, no.CorinneAnd that's why you got divorced.VirginiaExactly, yes. No — he was right. But every fall, I'm like, I kind of wish I had that. It looks pretty. I'm not going to spend that money, but it does look cool. So then this year the kids wanted to get pumpkins. And so Jack and I took them to a little local pumpkin patch, and I discovered the trick is to go the Saturday before Halloween. The pumpkins are on deep discount. And I now have 14 pumpkins on my front porch that I spent only $70 on.Corinne14 pumpkins is a lot. VirginiaIt is a lot! They just kept giving us more. I paid $70 for maybe, like, seven pumpkins. And I was still like, well, $10 a pumpkin. We'll feed them to the chickens. Jack's like, I can bake something with this cheese pumpkin. I was like, it's it's fine. And then they were like, here. Take more. Take more. I was like, well, now the pumpkins are basically paying me to be on my porch.CorinneSo funny. VirginiaI think it looks delightful and harvest-y, and I like that. It's a trend that works for both Halloween and Thanksgiving. So you can leave it up for a while. And then you could feed the pumpkins to your chickens, or bake with them, if that was the type of person you were, or throw them in your woods and let the deer eat them, which is what I would also do. CorinneWhen I was at my mom's house in Maine, we did get a pumpkin for her front steps, and it immediately got eaten by squirrels.VirginiaAnother reason to wait until the Saturday before Halloween. So you're not trying to make this trend last all fall. I think it's also like, at this time of year, I'm getting sad about the leaves falling. I'm getting sad about the coming cold, anything that makes me like anything better. It's a pile of pumpkins. They're pretty, that's all.CorinneThey are. The pumpkins in this photo are very beautiful.VirginiaYeah, no, that's the key. You don't just get orange pumpkins, you get the Cinderella pumpkins, the fancy gourds and whatnot.CorinneAnd also, how is this WSJ article/photo, leaving out the fact that there are 14 foot tall skeletons in the background?VirginiaYes, in that photo, they are also doing the very tall skeletons, which is a trend I'm not on because I don't know where to store it. Where does one store the 12-foot skeleton the rest of the year?CorinneI don't know. And those are also like $500, I think.VirginiaThey're not cheap. That's like $2,000 in Halloween decorations just on their porch. It's a commitment. And I didn't go that route, but I just enjoy it. That's all.CorinneDid you put them out and step back and rearrange them? VirginiaI sure did.VirginiaNow that I think about it, this episode is very similar to the episode where we talked about our diet-y habits. People just like us to talk about problematic stuff, I guess? CorinneThey like us to be three dimensional people with flaws.VirginiaI'm here for it. These are the most fun episodes to record, too, I think. So we need more ideas on this theme! I definitely would re-do problematic faves in a year or so to see if we have new ones. What are other what are other ways you want to hear about our flaws? Tell us in the comments. What else do you want us to fess up to? We'll think about it. 4. The Episode That Converted The Most Paid Listeners: Mel Robbins Has a PHD in Diet CultureOkay, now we get to Mel Robbins! The episode that converted the most paid listeners is a very important metric for us as podcast business ladies. Paywalled episodes exist to convert new paid subscribers, and that is how we pay all of our bills, and survive this lifestyle of making internet content. So I'm not shocked this was our biggest converter. Well, I guess my only surprise is that I honestly wasn't super aware of who Mel Robbins was before we did this episode. But then I realized she was, like, a pretty big celebrity, so it makes sense that this converted a lot.VirginiaDo you want to talk us through the morning routine post?CorinneSo, “this is the morning routine that’ll supercharge your energy all day.”Virginia“Backed by science,” that’s what she says.CorinneStarts with getting up when the alarm goes off. Once again, it’s not bad advice. Like, yes. But also is Mel Robbins telling you to do it going to make you do it? I don’t know.VirginiaSometimes you’re just not going to do that, and you might still have an okay day. It doesn’t mean the whole day fell apart because you didn’t get up the second your alarm went off.CorinneThe next thing, making your bed, tidying your space—another very common self help tip!VirginiaIt’s “the simplest way to practice discipline,” Corinne. “A promise kept no matter what.”CorinneI’m going to be honest, I feel okay with the first two. Number three, “high five yourself in the mirror.” Like, no. I’m never going to do that. I hate that. I really hate it.VirginiaI can’t stop laughing. She’s so serious in the photo. She has a selfie of her high fiving herself, and she’s so serious in the photo. Like she is earnestly high fiving herself.CorinneLet me tell you, “giving yourself a high five in the mirror rewires your brain to focus on self love and positive reinforcement.”VirginiaThe science behind that is all in her book, The High Five Habit. So there you go. The PhD level science that she’s done to confirm. I just imagine saying to someone actually struggling with depression or anxiety, like, “why don’t you just high five yourself in the mirror?” And, like, I think they would be justified in throat punching you. Like, “I’m sorry your mom just died. Have you tried high fiving yourself in the mirror?” Like, fuck you.CorinneThis is the thing, right? This is what we talk about. It’s like, exercising does make us feel better, but you can’t tell someone struggling, “Just exercise.” Like, this advice is good. Like, get out of bed, have a glass of water. Exercise. And, no one needs that advice. Everyone knows that.VirginiaHigh fiving yourself in the mirror I’m going to say is not good advice. Like, I’m going to say for most of us, that’s not going to be transformative in any way. It’s just going to be dumb.CorinneI have been surprised to see how much staying power her book has had. I'm still seeing people talking about it! And one of the things we talked about in this episode was the scandal around it being...VirginiaPlagiarized, question mark? Allegedly plagiarized? Certainly, some lack of clarity about source material and original authors? CorinneI just kind of thought that would make people stop paying attention to that book. But it really has not.VirginiaNo, does not seem to have made a dent. Also, I would have thought people would have stopped paying attention when she told everyone to high five ourselves. And yet, here we are. Have you high fived yourself yet in the mirror?CorinneAbsolutely not, have you?VirginiaAbsolutely not, never will. Truly terrible advice. And frankly, very patronizing towards anyone struggling with actual mental health issues. This is the last thing you need to hear, in my opinion.CorinneI think I agree with that.5. The Most Downloaded Episode of 2025: Is Dr. Mary Claire Haver Making Menopause a Diet? CorinneOh, back to the menopause.VirginiaBack to the menopause. This was a great episode we did with Cole Kazdin, an Emmy Award-winning television journalist and author of What's Eating Us: Women, Food, and the Epidemic of Body Anxiety. Cole came on Burnt Toast about two years ago to talk about What's Eating Us when it first came out. It's a really great resource about the industry of eating disorder recovery. And then Cole emailed me and was like, "Can we please talk about menopause and why it is a diet, and why I think so many millennials are going to get eating disorders in the season of life because of the diet culture being created here." VirginiaAll right, we are going chat a little bit about one of the folks that we see on the socials talking about menopause relentlessly —Dr. Mary Claire Haver.ColeShe wrote the book The New Menopause, which is a really great, significant book in many ways in terms of providing information that has never been provided before.VirginiaOh yes, this is @drmaryclaire.ColeWhen I bought her book, I saw that she has also written The Galveston Diet, and I said to myself, hmm. And then bought the book anyway. And you know now it all makes sense. Because The Galveston Diet is is very geared towards the perimenopausal, menopausal lose belly fat, but also have more energy help your menopause symptoms, right? How can you knock that? Come on.And so it's very sort of interwoven with all the diet stuff. So it's not surprising that she would bring so much of that up in her menopause book and a lot on her Instagram. She wears a weighted vest all the time. I thought, “Should I get a weighted vest?” And I again, I wasn't sure if I was doing it for menopause diet culture reasons, or I just love to lift heavy things reasons. I thought, “That could be cool. Maybe that'll be fun. I'll just wear a weighted vest around the house, like this woman, who's the menopause authority.”I guess what’s coming across in this interview is how vulnerable I am to any advertising!VirginiaNo, it's relatable. We all are vulnerable! I mean, I'm looking at her Instagram right now and I'm simultaneously exhausted at the prospect of wearing a weighted vest around my house and, like…well…ColeWouldn't that be convenient? But let me save you a minute here, because when you go to whatever your favorite website is to buy weighted vests, and you look at the reviews, it's split between people saying, “This is the best weighted vest [insert weighted vest brand here],” and other people saying, “Gee, the petroleum smell hasn't gone away after two months.”VirginiaOkay. I can't be walking around my house smelling petroleum. No, thank you.ColeBecause they're filled with sand that comes from who knows where, and the petroleum smell doesn't go away. And according to some reviews I read—because I did go down the rabbit hole with this—it actually increases if you sweat. So I thought, You know what, I can do this in other ways.VirginiaI'm sure there are folks for whom the weighted vest is a revelation. And, it's a very diet culture thing to need to be alway optimizing an activity. You can't just go for a walk. You need to be walking with a weighted vest or with weighted ankles. Why do we need to add this added layer of doing the most to everything?And I'm looking at a reel now where she talks about the supplements she's taking. Dr. Mary Claire is taking a lot of supplements.ColeSo many supplements!VirginiaVitamin D, K, omega threes, fiber, creatine, collagen, probiotic… That's a lot to be taking every day. That's a really expensive way to manage your health. Supplements are not covered by insurance. There's a lot of privilege involved in who can pursue gold standard healthy menopause lifestyle habits.ColeAnd it's always great to ask the question, who's getting rich off of the thing that I'm supposed to be doing for my health? Because it's never you.VirginiaYes. She keeps referencing the same brand — Pause.ColeIt's hers. It's her brand.VirginiaOh there you go. So, yeah, taking advice from someone with a supplement line, I think, is really complicated. This is why it's so difficult to find a dermatologist as well. Any medical professional who's selling their own product line has gone into a gray area between medical ethics and capitalism that is very difficult to steer through.VirginiaI think Dr. Mary Claire Haver is very similar to Mel Robbins in a lot of ways. I mean, she is a medical doctor, Mel Robbins has no relevant credentials to tell people what to do with their lives. But they have the same kind of energy on social media. They are both tiny women with a really good blowout telling you how to run your life. And you do not have to dig far to get into their super diet-y and anti-fat content. It's all right there at the surface.CorinneYikes. No, thank you. VirginiaBut this is a good episode. If you missed it, if you missed any of these, I recommend giving them a listen. What do you notice about these five? Any standout themes or observations? Other than, yes, we're all obsessed with menopause.CorinneDefinitely menopause. And like you alluded to earlier... flaws.VirginiaIt's interesting that there were two about problematic white lady influencers, which has been a cornerstone of Burnt Toast coverage for a while. We do a few of those every year, so I'm not surprised two of them made it into the top five. But then the others in the top five were like Corinne and Virginia just being humans.So that's kind of like a nice counterpoint. Because it's us just being messy people, right? CorinneTwo were about menopause, and two were about problematic white ladies, and two were about us having flaw. VirginiaThat's right, yes. One was about both menopause and a problematic white lady. We had some overlap, yes. Then the ones that were not in those two categories were us just saying, "here's some weird stuff we do."So, all right, more hot mess express in 2026. We can do it. CorinneOh God. VirginiaI mean, honestly, it's easier than trying not to.CorinneDo you have any further thoughts about those topics?VirginiaNo, but I'm curious to hear from listeners if you have a favorite among those five, or if you have a different favorite episode for the year?There were also a lot of little episodes that didn't hit the top metric on something but did generate great discussion or that I'm just really fond of. One that I really wanted to get in here was the interview with Jessica Slice, author of Unfit Parent: A Disabled Mother Challenges an Inaccessible World. That was one that was second place for a couple of these categories. It did generate a bunch of comments. It did generate a bunch of shares, and I feel like really resonated with folks. So that's an honorable mention.CorinneThat's one that really stuck with me. I've just thought about a lot since I listened to it. I would say also maybe, the one with Lisa Sibbett.VirginiaYes! Lisa who writes The Auntie Bulletin. I loved that conversation with Lisa about community and divesting from consumerism. Perpetual Burnt Toast goals. Oh, it was such a good year making the podcast. It really was.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterCorinneOkay, I'm going to endorse a problematic Butter.VirginiaOh, a problematic Butter! We love it.CorinneBorderline. I mean, okay. I'm going to endorse this product, which was sent to me. So it was gifted. I received it for free. VirginiaOkay. Thank you for disclosing.CorinneI was just like, whatever. It's a lotion. It's called Talova. And I realized once I got it that it's made from...beef tallow.VirginiaOh, that you're rubbing on your body?CorinneI did have that realization after I started using it and really liking it. And I feel like beef tallow is one of those things where I'm like, I hear it and I'm like, that's MAHA-coded.VirginiaVery Huberman Bro. Yes. CorinneIt's like, the crossover point between lefty crunchy mom heading into RFK territory. VirginiaOh dear. CorinneThat's why this is a problematic fav. But I started using it before I realized that it was beef tallow. And I was using it, and I was just like, why is this stuff so good? I love it. And then I looked at the ingredients, and there's tallow and emu oil.VirginiaOh, no. Aren’t emu endangered?CorinneI don't know. I'm also like, is Emu oil what it sounds like? Okay, but I will say it's a body balm. It's incredible. It smells so good. It doesn't smell like beef or emu, it has a citrusy scent. It's my winter in the desert thing. It's so good. I love it.VirginiaI am confirming on the Internet that emu oil is a traditional Australian moisturizer derived from the fat of the emu bird, used topically for skin and hair care. Okay, Down Under listeners, we're going to need you to weigh in on this. Is Corinne being problematic using emu oil? Do we need to cancel her? Or is she allowed?CorinneIf emu oil is problematic, I think the brand could be canceled, not me. But anyways, I really like this product, and I'm sorry to say, it's made with beef tallow, and it's it really working for my dry desert skin, and it smells good.VirginiaAll right, all right. Well, I'm going to give a non-problematic Butter, just so we don't end the year on such a controversial note. My Butter, as you all are listening to this on Christmas Day, or perhaps during the winter break, is to go take a nap. I took a really great nap the day after Thanksgiving, and I thought to myself, why do I not take more naps on holidays? Usually because I'm busy hosting them and parenting my children, and it's difficult to do. And I'm here to say, if that's you as well, take 30 minutes just stop whatever you're doing and go lay down in a room by yourself and close your eyes or read a book, whatever. It is your holiday as well, and you deserve that.CorinneI'm a huge nap fan. VirginiaI am not a lifelong napper, but I've been getting into it recently. Or even if you don't sleep, just take some quiet, no people time. I think that can be really helpful when you're in the thick of holidays. CorinneAs a big introvert, 30 minutes alone can really turn things around for me.VirginiaAnd make you like the rest of the day! Instead of getting increasingly spacier and grumpier. So yeah, I want everyone to go take a nap either today or tomorrow or whenever. All right, this was a super fun episode. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You're listening to Burnt Toast! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.And it's time for the episode we look forward to all year long—ever since we made it a tradition exactly one year ago! It is time for... The Year In Butters, where we look back at everything we've recommended in the past year and tell you what's still buttery and what has...gone rancid. If you're new here: Butter is what we call the recommendation segment at the end of every episode. It might be a new favorite food, a great book, an experience, or a state of mind. But since we give recs every week, some Butters stand the test of time more than others! Find out if we still love...🧈 Tracking Virginia's hydration? 🧈 Corinne's new shower head? 🧈 The $16 sundress Virginia bought last summer! 🧈 And so many more! To get the full schmear, you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Membership starts at just $5 per month and is the best way to support our work! (Just want the Butter, no strings attached? Buy this episode for just $4.)🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈This episode contains affiliate links. Thank you for supporting Burnt Toast when you shop our links! Episode 224 TranscriptCorinneWell our big realization when we did this last year was that a lot of things we had recommended, like clothes, hadn't stood the test of time.VirginiaThey sure did not. We took a real hard look at my fast fashion problem. And I think I've made some real progress on that front, so I'm excited. I think a lot of our Butters held up pretty well this year...but we'll see. CorinneYeah, when I was compiling this I could tell that we were having a reaction to the clothes recommendation thing, because I think there is maybe, like, one this year.VirginiaWell, it is a lot to think of a Butter all the time! When I invented this segment, I did not know what I was doing. Podcast guests always get very nervous about the Butter. (We're not going to go over the guests’ Butters, by the way. These are just the Butters that Corinne and I have recommended together on our episodes, or we'd be here all day.) It is a lot of effort every week thinking of a Butter. I try really hard to think of something that's a little quirky and random, and not necessarily something you have to buy, though sometimes they are things you could buy. What are your criteria for a good Butter?CorinneWell, I think we have both found that if you don't think about it a little bit in advance, and then when you're on the spot, everything you've ever liked just falls out of your brain.VirginiaYes, then you don't like anything. Nothing is good.CorinneThis year, for 2025, I really leaned into food and media Butters. I was basically recommending whatever I was enjoying making for dinner or a snack, or what I was watching or reading.VirginiaI do think those are the best butters. Although I always enjoy it when we have a wild card. My favorite ever Burnt Toast Butter probably still is your sun face shield, which was one of the very first Butters you ever buttered. It was so out of the box and delightful to me.CorinneThat one really did not stand the test of time.VirginiaI know. I guess for me—as much as I think it's valuable for us to look at what Butters hold up—sometimes a Butter is just a moment in time. Not all Butters are lifetime Butters. Some Butters are more fleeting. They're like the the sand art and, you know, that's fine.CorinneMaybe in 2026 we should try to have more wackadoo butters.VirginiaI would definitely be here for that. Okay, should we jump in and go back and forth?CorinneMy first Butter of last year was the Connally Goods denim chore jacket, which is named after me. My last name, Fay.VirginiaSo obviously a great Butter right there. CorinneI stand by this one. VirginiaFor you to back away from a denim chore coat would be breaking news. CorinneThey actually just came out with a brown version that has blue stitching, and I ordered that.VirginiaSo, you are doubling down on this Butter. You're going to be a Double Butter on the denim chore coat.CorinneI think that is my only clothing one of the entire year.VirginiaWell, and Connally Goods is not fast fashion, right? It's company we feel great about supporting. A good slow fashion brand. And my Butter from that episode was the brownies you sent me for Christmas last year from Vesta Chocolate. And I'm going to say, Yeah, that one holds up. I mean, I haven't had them since, but this is making me be like, ooh, who do I want to send those to? Maybe myself?CorinneI think it's hard for brownies to not hold up.VirginiaThat's going to be an evergreen Butter in the Burnt Toast universe. Okay, your next one was the TV show Bad Sisters.CorinneGood one. I still like that show. VirginiaI still haven't watched the second season. The first season was amazing.CorinneYeah, can't say I've re watched it, but.VirginiaIt's a great clothes show.CorinneYes, and I love Sharon Horgan.Okay, yours was Taco Cat Goat Cheese Pizza.VirginiaThis is a good Butter and if you don't have that card game, and you regularly play card games, especially with kids, I recommend it. It's great if you have younger kids who aren't as good at harder card games—they can do well at it. We haven't been playing it as much recently, but I'm not getting rid of it. I think we've just cycled into other games for the moment? But it's a good one to have on hand if you have a crowd of people you're trying to get united in some way. This is a good crowd pleaser. CorinneYeah, that sounds fun. I feel like sometimes when you play a game a lot it gets too easy.VirginiaYou can get expansion packs that make it harder, and we do have some of those, but we just kind of maxed out on it for a minute. I could see that come back around.Okay, I've completely forgotten what your next one is. This outline just says the word Anora and I don't know what that is.CorinneThat's crazy, because it was a movie that came out at the very end of 2024 and won a bunch of awards.VirginiaOh yes! And it had what's her face from Better Things in it?CorinneYes. Mikey Madison. I stand by that. I thought that was a really good movie.VirginiaI have not seen it, but I love Mikey Madison in Better Things, which I believe was another Butter of mine last year. So, yes, great.CorinneYour next one was shearling, big buckle, Birkenstock clogs.VirginiaOn my feet right now. Absolute lifetime Butter, these clogs. I think I'm on my third pair? I've been wearing them eight years probably. They do wear out. I wish they lasted a little longer. Shearling often starts to kind of go bald on you. But they are my forever house shoes in cold weather, and they make me so happy.CorinneThat sounds really comfy. VirginiaI've still never bought Birkenstock clogs for outside of the house wear. but they're great slippers. If you're someone who works from home, invest in your slippers. Your feet are important. Okay, your next one is the book The Safekeep.CorinneThat was one of the best books I read this year.VirginiaI co-sign. I read it on your recommendation. My whole book club loved it. And we do not always agree on books. We don't always have the same taste, and we were all uniformly obsessed with that book. And then my mom's book club read it, and they were more mixed.CorinneOoh, interesting. VirginiaI think it was a little spicy for them? But I think I like that for them. My mom loved it. She got it.CorinneThat was one of those books I read, and then was just trying to get everyone I know to read it.VirginiaBecause you just want to talk about it. It's wild, it's so wild. I'm excited for anyone who needs a good holiday read. It's just such a good immersive novel. If you haven't read it, pick it up for your winter break read. CorinneOkay, your next one is one I am very curious about. It is the Water Llama hydration tracking app.VirginiaWe might have reached our first dud.CorinneHow long was Water Llama in your life?VirginiaI definitely Water Llama-ed for a few months. CorinneOh, that's a pretty long time. VirginiaI had maybe, like two-ish months, three months? So for folks who don't remember: This is an app that tracks your hydration throughout the day. The reason I started doing it was because I was having so many headaches and I thought I was dehydrated. And then I figured out that probably I have so many headaches because I have sleep apnea, so hydration became less of a focus. But what I'm actually proud of is that I didn't keep tracking. Because I am someone who can be a little too into tracking. I think the fact that I let go of tracking Water Llama is a sign of personal growth. CorinneI love that. VirginiaAnd if you do need to track hydration for medical reasons or whatever, it is a delightful app to use. But it's also okay to break up with tracking when it doesn't serve you.I do feel like I'm overall a little better hydrated, though, from the experience.  When I do a weightlifting workout now, I always make sure to have my big water bottle with me now. All right, you were really on the media kick. Your next one is the TV show Severance.CorinneStand by it. That was great. I feel like it was really fun to be watching Severance every week earlier this year. It was one of those shows that everyone I know was talking about. VirginiaI missed out on that! For some reason I loved the first season and have not watched the second season. CorinneOh my gosh.VirginiaI gotta get that and Bad Sisters going again.CorinneThis is Apple TV. You need to re subscribe to Apple TV.Virginia I am. I'm watching Slow Horses on it right now. So these will be next. CorinneAll right. Yours from this episode was...meatballs.VirginiaI mean, obviously I'm still pro-meatballs. I'm assuming there was a specific kind of meatball? Or a reason?CorinneI don't think there was a specific recipe, but I think you were like, "Meatballs are great because some people can eat pasta, some people can eat sauce, some people can eat meatballs."But it's so funny because I just saw a Tiktok that was like, "What is the deal with New York Times Cooking and meatballs? They are pushing meatball propaganda." And later in the year, I did recommend a New York Times Cooking meatball recipe.VirginiaWe're all in Big Meatball's pocket. I mean, I do feel like this recommendation could have been "dinner." Virginia's Butter is...eating.CorinneNo, I think it was like, meatballs as a good meal where people can pick and choose. Some people can eat pasta, some people can eat meatballs.VirginiaWe do still use them that way. Because the night the kids come back to my house is always a pasta night and one of my kids is a vegetarian, so we can't do a meat sauce. So we do often make her favorite marinara sauce and then have meatballs on the side for the meat eaters. I stand by it as a dinner crowd pleaser. CorinneEven as a single person meal, I feel like meatballs make pasta and sauce feel more substantial.VirginiaI definitely agree with that. Okay, you have Dune Sunscreen.CorinneI really like that sunscreen. I will say it is very expensive. It's less of a makeup-y sunscreen, so it's pretty liquidy. And it has a slight green color when it comes out. But I like how it goes into my skin. Virginia"I like putting green sunscreen in my skin."CorinneOkay, it's not bright green.VirginiaHave you considered a career as a beauty influencer?CorinneYes, obviously.Virginia"Guys, it's real green, and then it just goes into your skin."CorinneOkay, so you know what? It's a good sunscreen. Okay, well, yours, beauty influencer, was the magic Vulva Balm.VirginiaYou know, it's not green. And it does go into your skin. Certain types of skin. I'm not using this as regularly. Whatever chafing issues I was having at the time have have resolved, but I definitely keep it on hand. And I think if you're dealing with any dryness, it's a good starting point. I will say, don't rule out, like, do you have a yeast infection? Do you need some vaginal estrogen cream? For those of us in the perimenopause season, there can be a lot going on down there that you want to pay attention to. But this is a good starting point for short-term relieving discomfort. It's a great product. Okay, Corinne, how is your new shower head?CorinneIt is still there! Still working.VirginiaIs it bringing you as much joy as it was initially?CorinneWell, I think the joy I was experiencing at the time was that my old shower head was really effed up and not working well, and I changed it out myself. And I was just like, oh, that was a lot easier than I expected. And the new one is so much better than the old one. So I will say the joy has worn off a little bit. Now I'm just like, yeah, I have a shower that works.VirginiaAlways great, but also sort of a baseline expectation.CorinneYeah, but at the time, it was a revelation.VirginiaWell, I do think the advice to solve one small annoying thing in your house is good. That really does bring a lot of joy when you can tackle something, especially when it's something you think is going to be a nightmare to fix, and then it's actually not that big a deal.CorinneI didn't realize how bad the old one was until I put in the new one. And I was like, whoa, I could have more than a trickle of water hitting my bodyVirginiaThis is like when we first started dating, Jack changed the light bulb in my shower that had been out for like, I don't know, seven years, probably? I just had accepted that I lived that way. I was like, "I have a dark shower. Some people have dark showers." CorinneThat's really funny.VirginiaAnd it is a really dark shower. It's like, not a tub with a curtain. It's like, there's only one little door at the end. So it was real dark, and now it's not. That was quite revelation to me.CorinneWow. I can see why you kept Jack around.VirginiaWho knew light bulbs could be changed, guys? I learned. 2025 was a big year for me.CorinneAll right, your next one was giant coloring sheets. (Other options here and here.)VirginiaI do think these are great. We haven't done them in a while, so it's possible this was a Moment in Time Butter. It's a great thing to put out on the table if you're going to have people over, or if you just need a casual way to interact with your kids, especially if your kids are in a prickly phase. Just sitting down and starting to color is often a way to bring them like a moth to the flame. But it is the kind of thing that will stop working after a bit. Because then they're like, we've colored a giant coloring sheet. I don't know. It didn't become a family passion. I think when I first got them, I was like, "This is our new hobby!" And it's more like...we did this for a bit. Maybe I'll break it out with a different group of kids sometime. But I do remember when Amy's kids visited, and I put one out thinking it would be a good way for the kids to all kind of bond, who don't see each other super often. And nobody touched it. They were also off doing other things. It wasn't like we needed it. CorinneSounds kind of similar to taco, llama whatever. Goat Cheese. Water. Hydration. Taco Llama, hydration. Goat cheese.VirginiaYeah, I think sometimes you hit on something that really works to bring kids together and create a joyful family moment, and it's okay to just let it be like that one time or two or three times, and not have it be a forever thing.CorinneYeah, totally.VirginiaAll right, yours is black snail tea from Little Red Cup Tea Company.CorinneI stand by this one. An old friend of mine runs Little Red Cup Tea Company. And black snail is a really good tea that I always have on hand. But they also have a bunch of good teas. If you're a tea drinker, it's all Chinese tea, and I would say it's an upgrade if you're just drinking like whatever grocery store black tea.VirginiaCelestial Seasonings, no shade.CorinneYeah, delicious, delicious tea. Okay, yours was starting plants from seed.VirginiaOh, yeah, we did a lot of that this spring. I did way more from seed than I ever had before. And yeah, I stand by it. I had a really nice mix of flowers in the cutting garden that I wouldn't have had if I had just bought starts at the nursery. I was able to really plan which colors I wanted and grow different varieties of zinnias and cosmos that you don't usually find. So that was really fun. And we had great tomatoes. I'm trying to think if we had any real duds on what we started. We were a little too successful. We ended up with a lot of plants we had to give away.CorinneWill you be doing this again?VirginiaYes, I think we will. I think we'll try to be more strategic. And we also need to think through some logistics about where in the house the seeds live. We did them in the guest room last year. That worked pretty well, but then it was a pain to carry everything downstairs when it was time to start putting them out. I definitely wouldn't recommend it so much for new gardeners. I think it's a lot of work and stress to keep your seedlings going. And we did have a crop fail because we went on vacation and the pet sitter didn't water enough, and then we had to restart some stuff. So it's not without its headaches. But if you've been like a, you know, a seasoned gardener looking to up your game, I think it's time. I think you're ready. CorinneWhen do you start stuff? VirginiaWell, it's all plant specific. And depends on your growing zone. So in New York, there's some stuff I could start as early as March, and there's some stuff it doesn't make sense to start till the end of April. It's all over the map. So that's a lot of planning. For the next episode, you recommended the book Stag Dance, which is another co-Butter recommendation.CorinneYeah, That is a book by Torrey Peters. And another one of, I would say, the best books I read this year. YReally enjoyed.VirginiaAlso endorsed by my Hot Tub Book Club. Apparently you pick all our best reads. So good job. CorinneWhat are you guys reading now? I need a rec.VirginiaWe just did Kate Bear's new book of poetry, which was a fun one. But we haven't picked for next month. Yeah, Stag Dance is fun. It's really strange. It's short stories, which I often don't like, but I did like in this case.CorinneYours from this episode was...chickens.VirginiaStill pro-chickens. Also can't underscore enough that I would not get chickens if you don't have people in your household committed to chicken care. Because part of why I can endorse them is that I do very little work for them. But we are getting a lot of eggs now, and I am really enjoying the egg situation. And they are quite charming. As pets go—and keep in mind, I am a household that has four species of pets. We have mammals, we have chickens, we have reptiles I've had a fish tank in the past. I'm a seasoned pet owner—I would say chickens are less work than a lot of pets, and higher reward. They're not much more work than reptiles, but they're a lot more interactive and fun and you get the eggs and it gets everyone outside. So I really like having chickens with kids.CorinneHave you had to deal with any chicken death?VirginiaNo, we are very lucky that so far, all eight of our ladies are going strong. We haven't had chicken tragedies. We put a lot of thought into predator protection, which is a big concern in our neighborhood. I think we have some neighbors who are less careful about predator protection, and therefore they're kind of the frontline chickens and ours are surviving. I would say the greatest threat to them is our Bernedoodle, Penelope, who loves them so much and sometimes gets a little confused about her role as chicken guarder. Um, I don't know how to pronounce your next one, Mango Izze?CorinneYes, this is like a mango flavored like soda type of thing. I mean, still delicious. I'm not feeling enthusiastic about this right now. I don't have any in my fridge, But I did go through a real Mango Izze phase.VirginiaI could see mango being one of those flavors that you're really into for a bit, and then you're like, I've had a lot of mango. I'm ready for something else.CorinneI started on the mango, and then I got some other Izze flavors, and I think mango is actually really the best. And also, like, it's less versatile than just having seltzer.All right, your swing for the living room.VirginiaOh yeah. Oh man, best $80 I've ever spent on my children, hands down, is the sensory swing in our family room. I did have to replace the fabric because a child, and I don't know that it was my child, but some child did go in the swing with child scissors. and there was a hole that then turned into ripping the swing. CorinneWhoa. VirginiaDidn't see that coming. But not sure I can blame the swing manufacturers for this. CorinneSwinging with scissors sounds really scary.VirginiaObviously, it was not a parent-endorsed move. I wasn't there when it happened. I don't really know the details. I just know suddenly the swing had a big rip in it, and we've had a talk about no sharp objects in the swing. But the second one is holding up very well, and I'd already put the bolt in the ceiling and the cable and everything. I just had to replace the fabric. So it wasn't a huge issue. Obviously, this is kid to kid, but if you have a kid with any kind of sensory stuff, neurodivergence, but also just like any kid who, needs a comforting spot. It's a really, really great tool. Swinging is really regulating for a lot of people, for a lot of reasons. CorinneThat's awesome. VirginiaOkay, the next episode, I think this was a summer episode, and we were both on a salad kick, so that's kind of funny. We don't tell each other our butters before we record usually, so it's like, then we just both happen to recommend salads. So yours was the Smitten Kitchen garlic lime steak and noodle salad.CorinneYeah, that's a good recipe. I stand by it. But yeah, again, a summer recipe. I'm not making it right now. It's a cold noodle with steak thing. VirginiaI mean, it sounds great.CorinneYeah, I'm more going for warm foods right now. And yours was sushi salad. It was like leftover sushi made into a salad.VirginiaYes, I do still do this with leftover sushi, because you know how sometimes you over order a little on sushi? You don't have a whole roll left. You have like three pieces, or you have like a weird amount of sushi where it's not a meal on its own. CorinneAnd I feel like leftover sushi gets a little dried out.VirginiaChop it up, toss it in a salad with whatever. I usually do, like, lettuce, carrots, cucumbers, maybe some shallot or red onion or something. I try to do some, like, vaguely Asian ish feeling vinaigrette. I have, like, a store bought honey, Ginger one I use a lot. Or if I have some of the spicy mayonnaise left over, I'll use that to make a dressing. CorinneThat sounds good. VirginiaIt's such a good lunch. It's really quick. It's a great thing to do with leftover sushi. Love it. All right, you were back to TV the next month with rewatching Girls.CorinneI mean, stand by it. VirginiaYou have not backed away from a single Butter!CorinneI feel like my most backed away from was Mango Izze.VirginiaOh yeah, you were a little over that, but that could come back, too. CorinneI mean, it's a classic, you know? What am I going to say?VirginiaYeah, absolutely. Lena Dunham is a gift. CorinneYour next one is a fast fashion, Old Navy crinkle gauze maxi dress and not worrying about bra straps.VirginiaOkay, I continue to not worry about visible bra straps, and that has been liberating for me. Yeah, the maxi dress. Was a $16 crinkly cotton maxi dress ever going to be a lifetime purchase? Like, did we expect that from it? We didn't. I don't think. (Note: It appears to be gone from Old Navy's website, so clearly they didn't expect it to last either!) CorinneIt will not be coming with us into 2026? VirginiaI mean, I don't know. It might. It's also like, it's December. We just had our first snow day. Obviously it's nowhere near my brain right now. The fabric was looking a little worn by the end of the season. But it might be like a pool cover up, or it might not. It was for the moment. All right, yeah. I know the next one is a shopping purchase that holds up... Baggu bags.CorinneYep, stand by it. Feel like I really doubled down on things that are going to stand the test of time. I just used a Baggu Bag this morning.VirginiaI feel like I use them in all aspects of my life. They go in the car to the grocery store. I have all the pouches and organized things. My favorite purse is a Baggu. It's a great brand. It's a great brand. CorinneAgree.All right, what about one minute planks and possibly learning how to do a push-up?VirginiaI think what we're learning about us is...I have a lot of cool ideas.CorinneThat's true. VirginiaYou are better at committing. You're a little more loyal.CorinneI am very loyal. Loyal is a nice way of putting what we're seeing here.VirginiaI have more flights of fancy. Perhaps there was a week where I did one minute planks every day. That week did not continue into a second week. I mean, some of it was, I was doing the one minute planks because I was really short on time, and I was trying to get some movement into my day during a busy week or whatever. So I do think they're great for that. And I've just been able to get back into my normal workout routine. So if I've done a good weights workout two days ago. I'm not like, Oh God, I better do a one minute push up today. Like, what? No, it's fine. Learning to do push-ups remains an elusive bucket list goal. Maybe someday. Now is not that time for me and push-ups. No, I'm comfortable. I'm comfortable with my little pulses I can do.CorinneHell yeah.VirginiaMy counter push-ups. That's about it.All right, Fox Family potato chips from Maine. CorinneI mean, now we're getting into the really recent ones.VirginiaSo I assume that's still good. CorinneStill good. I wish I had some right now.VirginiaWhat would make one turn on a high quality potato chip? CorinneYeah. Nothing. VirginiaSpeaking of loyalty. We have values here.CorinnePotato chips.VirginiaFor sure, a core value. CorinneOkay, yours was pressing flowers.VirginiaWell, I mean, I'm not currently pressing flowers, but it's December. There are no flowers to press. But we did press flowers, and I'm very happy to own a flower press.CorinneAre the pressed flowers still present in your life?VirginiaYes! We framed some in little acrylic frames, and they're really cute. They're by my bathroom on a windowsill, and they look very pretty. And I think it's something I will do again, for sure. I'm glad to own a flower press. I don't know that pressing flowers is something one would do, like, weekly. CorinneYeah, no. VirginiaHow frequently are we expected to do it? if I press flowers once a season, I'll feel great about that. CorinneYeah, it seems like a good gardening add-on.VirginiaIt's a nice way to appreciate flowers that don't have good vase life. The really delicate stuff is the best for pressing flowers. Whereas, like, a Dahlia, you actually it's, like, too thick, it's hard to press. Your next one, I think you recommended more than once. I think you recommended it as a Butter on an episode, but then also during a live we talked about it. I feel like I've heard you talk about Taskmaster on more than two occasions. CorinneSo the real question is, when are you going to start watching it? VirginiaWhen am I going to start watching it? I have not watched it yet. CorinneI think one or both of your kids would enjoy it. I think Jack might enjoy it. I think you might enjoy it. It's a great show. It's funny. I endorse it. I know Burnt Toasties are Taskmaster fans.VirginiaWe heard from the people on this one.CorinneI think originally Aubrey Gordon endorsed it, so if you need someone cooler than me to recommend it...VirginiaThere's no one cooler than you. And I am sure Aubrey would agree with me on that, although Aubrey is very cool. You know what I'm going to do? I've been looking for a show the whole household can watch together. Because we don't have a show we can all four watch together super easily due to competing ages and preferences and mostly, opinions about how much you can talk when you're watching a show, which is a question, my children are real polar opposites on. So it can be hard to get them to watch something together, because one of them talks a lot and one of them does not like that. However, this feels like a show where some talking is okay.CorinneIt’s a competition show. But it's really, like, silly. And the season has a little bit of an arc, because it's the same people for 8 or 10 episodes or whatever. It's British. It's your cultural heritage.VirginiaNo, of course, my people. I'm going to try it as a dinner show, and I will report back to you. I'm going to say we have to do it.CorinneI feel like it's maybe PG-13 or something. There are sometimes innuendos.VirginiaAt their father's house, The Simpsons is the dinnertime show. CorinneOh, okay, I think we're okay.You recommended moving stuff around so you're more comfortable. Like moving your desk.VirginiaI moved my desk out from the wall. As you can see, I still have a wonky zoom background because I sit kitty corner in the room now, instead of with my back against a straight wall. And there's so much more room for my body, and I'm really glad I did it. Move furniture if your body does not fit! Okay, we're back to meatballs. Really could be the name of this segment. Instead of Butter, it's Meatballs. And this was your Korean barbecue style meatballs from the New York Times.CorinneThat's a great recipe. And I will say that I made it so much that I am slightly sick of it.VirginiaSo maybe not a long-term Butter?CorinnneIt was a moment in time. I made it for myself a bunch of times. I made it with my mom. My mom made it for my sister. I made it for a friend who I was bringing dinner to. Some friends started making it. It was a good recipe. It has spread throughout my community and and I will not be making it again for a few months probably.VirginiaBut it had legs as a recipe. Meatballs are a great thing to bring people. If you're bringing food to family with a new baby.Corinne Totally. And it's not a meatballs and sauce type recipe. It's just kind of like a, I don't know...meatballs.VirginiaHave some rice with it, or good bread or something.CorinneYeah, exactly. You recommended planting fall bulbs?VirginiaOh, Lord, okay, okay. My Butters are the ones that all fall apart under scrutiny. CorinneHow could this fall apart??VirginiaNo, I recommend it. And I did plant a bunch. However, have some somebody checking your bulb orders and making sure you don't over order beyond the amount of bulbs you can realistically plant. Because I have planted like 300 daffodils, and a bunch of other things. And I still have a whole bunch of tulips and a whole bunch of alliums that have not gotten in the ground, and it is December 3, and we had our first snow yesterday. So I am just looking at the calendar, and I'm like, when am I going to get these in the ground? Like, when is the snow going to melt? I need a rare 50 degree day where I can now get back into it. So this was one where my enthusiasm exceeded my available time and energy. When I've had a Sunday afternoon where I could go plant bulbs, I really just needed to take a nap, and I did that. CorinneCould you hire some help?VirginiaThese are going in my raised beds. So it's literally like, I need to walk out there, dump the bags of bulbs in the raised bed and then dump soil on top. Like, I could hire help for that, but it feels wrong. And the fun part is figuring out the combinations and I want to do it. So I endorse plantnig fall bulbs. But maybe just have a friend on hand to say, do you need to order that many bulbs? Maybe you order a few fewer bulbs? Because you might be tired.CorinneI helped my mom plan some bulbs when I was still in Maine, and minutes after we finished, they were being eaten by squirrels. So yeah.VirginiaThat's another frustration. CorinneSo maybe planting a lot will result in more surviving? VirginiaThat is part of the logic. And tulips tend to be very squirrel--they like them. So you have to have a protected location, which is why they go in my raised beds and I cover them with chicken wire until spring. So I do endorse this. It's a great Butter. But if you're someone who has a little bit of an online shopping problem. You might over order and find yourself in a mess in December. Stay tuned. Maybe I'll get them in the ground this weekend. Somehow. Maybe the snow will melt. We'll see. All right, this is the most recent episode we did. So to be fair, these are recent Butters. Can we say they will be lifetime Butters? We don't know. I, however, do feel confident that this Mayana Chocolate Bar you recommended is going to remain a fave.CorinneI mean, yes, very delicious. And I will say I did order some to my house, and now I'm a little sick of them. VirginiaOh, my lord. CorinneSo maybe my pattern is going all in on Butter, and then it growing old.VirginiaYou go too hard. It's not really the fault of the butter. CorinneNo, and like, I'm sure that we'll still eat all of them.VirginiaBut you hyperfixate. CorinneI bought a bunch, and I have them, and now I'm like, hmmm I also need, like, a different treat. I don't want to only be eating these. VirginiaBut also that seems like a great thing to have on hand when you have guests over, or, if you, like, need to bring a treat to somebody. Now you've got a treat stash. Being the friend who brings good chocolate is a good friend to be. Corinne Hell yeah, yeah. Okay, your red Adidas.VirginiaThey are so comfortable. I wore them for airplane travel, and they were really comfortable walking through airports. I love them. because they are so comfortable. I'm considering getting a pair in a more neutral color palette to have even more versatility with them, because the red goes with most things, but not everything. But yeah, they're really great, and the red is so fun. And I get compliments every time I wear them. And I'm like, I know, Corinne has great taste.CorinneI wanted to get a pair during the Black Friday sale. I would be like, this color, and then it would sell out. And it happened like, three times, and I feel like, now I'm waiting for the refresh. Virginia All right. What do we think of the Butters this year? We had a lot of really good Butters.CorinneI think we had good Butters. I am kind of like, maybe I should have some more crazy whimsical stuff and less, like a television show that is objectively good.VirginiaThat everybody agrees is amazing. You're like, "I also like this Oscar winning movie. Great choice."CorinneMore plastic sun shields and fewer Girls. VirginiaI think you need less safe Butters. Although these were all excellent recs and  you did recommend my two favorite books of the year. So you know, you do have excellent taste in culture for sure. CorinneYou know, you didn't rec any books this year.VirginiaI think it's because we do so many authors on the podcast? So I often don't do books for Butter.I think I do have these little crazes I get into, like I'm tracking my water! I'm doing planks! And I think it's good for everybody to know that if I'm recommending something like that, it might be more of a just for now Butter. But I don't have regrets about either of those. I think it's good. And same with my recommendations for kids, I should try to drill a little more into when I think it's going to be a really durable kid related recommendation.Corinne I mean, kids change and grow so fast.VirginiaIt's so hard to predict. The swing could have been a bust, and instead it's beloved, which is good because it's permanently installed in my ceiling. And, coloring sheets have had their moment in the sun. CorinneWell, should we go out with a Butter? VirginiaLet's go out with a Butter!CorinneI'm going to put mine on right now. VirginiaOh boy. CorinneI'm excited. This could be a sunshield type butter. Maybe don't look. Close your eyes.Virginia I'm closing my eyes. CorinneYou can open them now. I want to recommend: This festive red collar from Connally Goods.VirginiaI feel like you've been wanting one of these for so long!CorinneI really have and I've been like, this is not practical. But I ordered a bunch of stuff from Connally Goods, and I got this, and I have only worn it once. But you know, it really does jazz things up.VirginiaIt's jazzing! You were just in a purple sweatshirt, and now! CorinneI'm in a purple sweatshirt with a bright red frilly collar.VirginiaIt is frilly. It is large. It's not a little collar.CorinneNo, it's substantial. VirginiaIt's definitely Henry the Eighth vibes, like a ruff. I mean, it's not layered, but maybe a pilgrim collar? I'm trying to think, what's being evoked here?CorinneI feel like it's Alice in Wonderland.VirginiaI see that, too. I love it. And you're just throwing it on any outfit.CorinneYeah. I've worn it out into the world once, and it was like, to a friend's house, and I was like, I can't wait for my friends to see this and talk about it.  VirginiaWait and did they?CorinneYeah, they were like, what is that? It's amazing.VirginiaI'm glad they weren't just like, "don't say anything about the collar," because I'm really hoping someone comments.CorinneNo, no, yeah, it's, I mean, you're going to say something about it, I feel like, right? VirginiaYou have talked before about being interested in a bib. We've talked about how we both bibs were more normalized. And this feels like, once you're done with it as a collar, just turn it around, and it's a great bib option. CorinneI wouldn't want to get soup on it, though. VirginiaNo, I understand. I'm saying, like, when you're when you're done, keeping it pristine for collar usage. Just seems very versatile. Goes with everything.CorinneI do like the idea that you can use it to turn a non-collared shirt into something a little more fancy.VirginiaYou can fancy up a lot of garments.CorinneAnd I think they have it in other colors. VirginiaWell, I love it. Great Butter.  CorinneThank you. What's your Butter? VirginiaMy Butter? In light of recent conversation, I will own that this is a Butter of the moment, perhaps unlike your collar.CorinneMy forever collar, yes, definitely.VirginiaBut I'm on a real kick this week with organizing. Like, just one kitchen cupboard, or like one small closet. And I think this is absolutely something I do when I'm stressed, and it is the holidays and life and blah, blah, blah, but it gives me a sense of calm and regulation. This is my sensory swing. Is like, can I just like, solve this one function issue in my house? So a big one is both Jack and my 12 year old love baking. They bake together a lot, but we had all the baking stuff in the kitchen stored between two or three different cabinets. So whenever they baked, it was like, everything comes out, and where does it all get put back and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I had one large cabinet that I was able to empty out, find new homes for that stuff, and then make that the dedicated baking cabinet. And it's so satisfying to my brain. CorinneThat's great. VirginiaI guess this is similar to moving furniture to fit your body. And maybe this will continue. I just don't know that I'll be organizing something every week for the rest of my life. Probably not. But I think if you're feeling a little overwhelmed finding one small space you can tackle can feel really good. CorinneAwesome. VirginiaAll right. Well, this was a delightful episode. Listeners, tell us! Did you try any of our Butters this year? If so, are you still feeling buttery about them or did you too stop tracking your hydration? No judgment, safe space! And if you have new Butters for us, drop them in the comments! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with Rachel Cahill, a longtime anti-hunger policy advocate based in Ohio. Rachel and her team support national and state-level organizations fighting every day to end hunger and poverty in the United States. Most of her work focuses on making SNAP (the government's Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program) the most effective, accessible and equitable program it can be in every community. JICYMI: When the federal government shut down this fall, it closed SNAP for the first time in the history of the program, pausing benefits for much of November. Benefits are up and running again in most places, but this has had major ripple effects on the state of hunger in our country right now. And it's led to a lot of long-term questions about what we do to prevent that ever happening again. Rachel knows more about the ins and outs of SNAP, and anti-hunger advocacy, than anyone I know, so I asked her to come on the podcast to explain what's happening, and what we can do to help fight hunger. We also talk quite a bit about how to give strategically because it is that time of year when a lot of us want to do charitable giving. Which is great! But there are good and less good ways to do that. Burnt Toast is a community of helpers, and I think this conversation will help us all be better at helping. If you enjoy this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work! Join Burnt Toast! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 222 TranscriptRachelI am a SNAP advocate. That's how I think of myself. That's my identity. I live in Ohio, and I have been working on SNAP, and the food assistance programs that are connected to SNAP, for almost 20 years. I started working on it in Philly, and have now worked in a number of different states. My passion is to protect our food assistance programs that help families meet their basic needs. If we had something better than SNAP in this country, honestly, I would work on that. But because SNAP reaches 42 million Americans, and it's the best safety net we have, that's the program that I've committed to working on. I do policy, advocacy, administrative, legislative—wherever we can fight for the program, we are doing that.VirginiaIt's incredible. I should disclose that we have a personal connection. I first met you, I guess, 20 years ago? When you were in college, you were a student of my stepmother, Mary Summers, who has also been on the podcast.RachelActually, I was a fresh out of college working in the community at the Greater Philadelphia Coalition Against Hunger. And Mary had students who she placed with us in a service learning program. Mary was one of my first and still mentors, who has supported me in lots of different ways through this career. And I think you did some interviews with Witnesses to Hunger? I worked on that program many years ago. So yeah, we've evolved a lot, Virginia, since those days.VirginiaYes! When I was researching my first book, The Eating Instinct, you helped connect me with folks for interviews. Rachel and I go way back in a shared advocacy spirit, sort of way so I just wanted to give people that backstory. And so I emailed you a few weeks ago to say, Rachel, help! Please come on the podcast. This was when the government was shut down and it had triggered the freeze on November SNAP benefits. At that point, everybody was scrambling, and I knew you were doing the most scrambling.  Of course, because of politics, the shutdown is now over. SNAP benefits are once again being distributed, for now anyway. But that is not to say that hunger has been solved in this country, or that the 42 million Americans who rely on that program are just totally okay now. You were like, "Do you still want to have this conversation?" And I was like, well, yes, because people are still going hungry! RachelYeah, thanks for the chance to talk about this! In the 20 years I've been working on food stamps, there has never been a moment I remember where SNAP dominated the headlines for two weeks straight. So on the one hand, I'm trying to see the silver lining in this massive drama to say it's a chance to educate everybody, including your listeners, about what the SNAP program is. It has been this quiet backbone program, running and feeding communities for almost 60, years. And during the shutdown, SNAP essentially got used as leverage for both parties to bludgeon each other with and blame each other for starving the citizens of the United States. It's unprecedented. I feel like that's an overused word these days, but this truly has never happened before. SNAP benefits stopped going out across the entire country. And the emergency food system—the food pantries, the soup kitchens, the food banks —was never meant, or equipped, to be able to overnight replace what SNAP is is doing in the community.Just in my home state of Ohio, we're talking about $263 million a month that goes out in SNAP benefits. No fundraiser for a food bank was ever going to come close to replacing that. It was a crisis. It was an absolute crisis that we were facing. So starting on November 1, people's benefits were frozen. They still had to complete renewal paperwork. They still had to comply with work requirements. But people weren't getting their benefits delivered. And then it turned into a Supreme Court battle. It went all the way up to the Supreme Court because the administration actually did have money available that they could have spent, and they were choosing not to spend it on the program that it was dedicated for. So finally, when the shutdown ended, the benefits slowly started flowing again. We're recording this on November 25 and in a few states, all the benefits still have not gone out. So there are still families who are supposed to get their benefits maybe the beginning of November, and are still waiting. The long-term harm of this is hard to overstate. The definition of food insecurity is not knowing where your next meal is going to come from. And we just traumatized 40 million people who did not know where their next meal was going to come from. 40 percent of SNAP recipients are children. Their bodies and brains are going to remember this trauma that they just went through, and it's going to be a long time before we can repair that harm. We need to make sure that this type of a crisis never happens again, and Congress is never in a position where they can hold SNAP benefits hostage, even in a future government shutdown. VirginiaI've been thinking about the juggling act that this triggered for so many families. If you relied on SNAP to cover groceries, that meant you could use other income to cover childcare or pay a utility bill. So we're also going to see folks having fallen behind on other bills. Maybe they're unable to make a car payment, which then impacts their ability to get to work, to get kids to school, so many different things.RachelThere's a saying that poverty charges interest. You might only have gotten $200 from that SNAP benefit, which supplements your work income. But if you're now having to put a bill on a short term loan or credit card and you're paying 20 or 30 percent interest on that because you waited three weeks...How long is it going to take families to dig out of that hole? We hear all the time about utility shut-offs, all the time about evictions that get connected to a small change in household income, including the loss of SNAP benefits. Now I will say, because we have made SNAP such a difficult system to navigate and renew benefits, even if the government never shuts down again, this uncertainty where your benefits disappear, you go to the grocery line to checkout and you find out that your benefits aren't there because of some paperwork mishap—that actually does happen a lot in families' lives. There's a lot we have to do longterm to make this a more stable program for everybody who's experiencing the instability of food insecurity. But this was certainly a crisis moment where it was hitting everybody at the same time.VirginiaSay a little more about that. Because for those of us who are mostly just seeing headlines, it's like, Okay, the government reopened. Okay, the SNAP benefits are back. But this is a system that was already not meeting the need. So what are some other ways SNAP struggles to support families?RachelFirst, let me just remind folks who don't know, if you've never been connected to the program: SNAP is a very modest food benefit. It is on an EBT card, like a little debit card, that is loaded every month with money for groceries. But it's the equivalent of, like, $6 a day on average. It is about as much as most people spend on a cup of coffee. It is not a generous benefit. There's a lot of misconceptions about what SNAP is. It's a very modest benefit you can only use for grocery items. The program—for as great as it is, and it's the best thing we have—has a history of exclusionary policy making. Certain groups have gotten excluded and carved out over time. And HR1, the big bill that passed July 4, really took a sledgehammer to SNAP, too. It cut almost $200 billion out of the program and did some additional exclusionary policy making, the impacts of which we're just starting to feel. So I put the barriers to SNAP in two buckets. There are eligibility barriers, meaning the people that policy makers intentionally exclude from the program. This includes groups like legally present immigrants. It includes people who are forced to prove that they are working over and over again, and if they can't provide the paperwork proving it, then they get kicked out of the program. So there is exclusionary policy making that has to be tackled at a legislative law making level. Then there's all this other stuff, which is most of what I've worked on for 20 years, and what I worked on with Mary twenty years ago. These are the kind of the administrative barriers that people face in tackling the program. Application forms that are 40 pages long, that ask extremely intrusive questions, asking for tons of verification. You have to do a full interview with a case worker, you have to renew your benefits at least every six months. All of these hoops are built up in the program to make people jump through, and that often keeps the folks most in need of benefits from accessing them. Not because they're not eligible, not because they don't need them, but because they just give up when the program is too hard to access. So we do a lot of work at the county and state level, state by state, red, blue, purple states to try to tackle some of those administrative barriers.VirginiaIt is wild that we think people need to work to have the right to buy food. And that we think people need to fill out 40 pages of paperwork just so you can buy groceries this week. RachelIn a number of states that have asset tests, you're asked for bank statements. You're asked for a copy of your rent receipt, your child care bills, how much do you spend on utilities every month? Applying for SNAP is harder than getting a house loan. It's harder than getting a business loan. It's harder than almost anything else, but that is the way the program was built. And there continues to be this persistent stigma or this narrative about unworthiness that has persisted in the program is so disconnected from reality. I'm hoping having this spotlight on SNAP, where we dominated the headlines for two weeks, does give a moment for people to take a second look at the program, really learn about what it is and start to fight for it. If you survey the American people, 90 percent of people, regardless of their political affiliation, will tell you that they think we should be doing more to help people meet their basic needs and pay for groceries, not less. But that doesn't match with what's happening legislatively in Congress. So we need people to know more about this program so that they feel like they have a stake in it. And I guess I just can't stop myself from saying one more thing: SNAP is so critical to our actual economy. One of the things that happened in the beginning of the shutdown is it wasn't just the folks losing that groceries on their table, it was the grocery stores they shop at, which, all of a sudden were saying, We have no customers, because 30 percent of our receipts come from SNAP and no one's shopping right now. I had a local store here in a rural part of Ohio which started laying people off immediately. Because they didn't know when those receipts were going to come in, and they don't have enough of a margin to be able to maintain their store without the program. So if we want our grocery stores to continue to exist and be in all parts of the country, we need SNAP. As that lifeline too.VirginiaWe agree we should be doing more to feed kids. We agree we should be doing more so that people don't go hungry. And yet, the program is built with so many barriers. And that's because there's this way we feel really good about fighting hunger—and it isn't the way that actually fights hunger.RachelI'll say two things to this. Because of the history of exclusionary policy making in SNAP, there is always going to be the need for charitable giving. And there's always going to be, I think, the need for a wraparound system that provides food in real time, today, for anybody who needs it. That's what the best food pantries and soup kitchens provide: No questions asked, walk in the door, get food today. But that doesn't solve the long-term problem. So while we are always going to need that, I think the reason there's this mismatch is this misconception about who benefits from SNAP. So, if you asked those same 90 percent of people who they think the most common person on SNAP is, they would say, "It's a 30 year old in their basement playing video games." It's the same stereotype and tropes about health care, about who benefits from the safety net. There's this misconception that there are people who aren't pulling their weight in society, and that's who's benefiting from these programs. But if you actually look at the programs, most people getting SNAP are elderly, retired, they're people with disabilities, they are children, and they're working parents. They are parents working sometimes two or three jobs, but in low wage work that requires the supplement of a SNAP program. This group of "non-working but capable people" that people imagine are benefiting from the program is a fantasy. And it's intentionally used by politicians who want to attack the program. That goes back to Reagan and before, right? It's a long political strategy that we have in this country. I've been really grateful in my career to see even the food banks and the rest of the charitable sector has come a long way in talking about SNAP as an integral part of feeding the community. Feeding America is a big association of food banks. And they will say: SNAP provides nine meals for every one meal that a food bank can provide. So I think the solution is not to say, "Is it charitable giving or SNAP that solves this problem?" It's actually the blend of the two that's going to make our community's food secure.VirginiaThere's a bit of moralizing, I think, that goes into this. People feel good about giving to a canned food drive, but not necessarily good about voting for policies that would protect SNAP. And with RFK and MAHA taking over the rhetoric around all of this, is that leading to even more policing about what people can spend SNAP benefits on, and what kinds of food we want people to have access to?RachelI'm going to first tackle the voting question. I think that very few people ever vote based on their beliefs or policy preferences around SNAP. I've yet to see a major political campaign where SNAP was a top issue that got talked about. That might change after the shutdown. We did see a lot of politicians on both sides of the aisle come out in defense of SNAP when the shutdown started, and that was, I hope, a jumping off point for people to actually vote. But I think there's this disconnect. I think there's a lot of bipartisan agreement here that we don't see. When you think about folks who are anti-SNAP, if you look at the comment section of an article in the newspaper that's about SNAP, you'll always see online comments that are disparaging SNAP. But if you look one layer under the maybe racism and misogyny that are layered on top--VirginiaHard to look past it, but sure, I'm with you. Comment sections are not my favorite.RachelAgreed. But if you do look past, most people's story is actually about they themselves not getting benefits from the program. So it's often a story of, "I don't like SNAP because when I needed it, I couldn't get it, or because I wasn't able to comply with the work requirement and that wasn't fair," or because I was disabled, or my family member was and couldn't get the help that they needed.So I think that, like so many social compacts in our society, if we actually built the program to help everyone who needed the help from the program, you would see more political support for it. That's why universal programs like Social Security generally benefit from really high public support, because we don't do the kicking people out there. There's not this sense of "if this group gets it, then my group doesn't get it."Some of the realest conversations I've had about SNAP are with families and parents who are just over the income limit and are really upset that they lost access to that benefit once they got a raise or once they got a slightly better job. And that just fundamentally isn't fair. So if we brought in the program and make it more accessible, we would have higher political support for it, I think.All right, on your MAHA question, which I know fits very well with your audience in terms of like you guys track the MAHA stuff.VirginiaWe do. Unfortunately, that has become a core part of our beat.RachelThe great irony of 2025 is that SNAP is one of the single best things we can do to make America healthy again. SNAP has every research study behind it that shows kids who get SNAP as children have higher economic output. They're healthier as adults, they work more. Older adults are less likely to go to the hospital, less likely to go to the nursing home, if they have access to SNAP. The research is abundant, right? VirginiaIt's wild we needed research to prove that feeding people made them healthier, but okay.RachelYes, but we have it. It's rock solid. I spent too many years trying to help those research studies to get published in peer-reviewed journals. We know that to be true. You also have a parallel movement that's been happening for several years, where food banks have been working with insurance companies and other healthcare providers to make sure that they're doing tailored meals, meal boxes for people who are going through cancer treatment, people who have diabetes diagnosis. So these sort of tailored meals continue to be a trend. SNAP is a payer. Medicaid is a payer for those programs, all of those things improve health. MAHA, of course, is not about improving health. You guys know that.It has become is about policing food, right? That is what MAHA is about. And so SNAP was an unfortunately perfect target for MAHA. As soon as we got into legislative sessions. This is at the state level. In January of 2025, we saw a flurry of MAHA-supported bills that would restrict what people could buy with SNAP benefits. In some states, it was soda. In some states, it was candy baked goods. In a state like Iowa, it's literally everything. If it didn't grow on a farm in Iowa. If it's not a vegetable or a legume, it's not in the program. So you've got  these extreme proposals that came out of it was the same two or three lobbyists who came through. They were Casey Means, they were RFK-alliance folks who came through in the state houses. And the only opponents in those hearings were the SNAP advocates. It was the Morris Institute for Justice in Arizona and a couple of brave food banks in some of the red states who saw these bills, and they were there to explain to lawmakers calmly how they have been working, how SNAP supports health, how there are other alternatives. I will say there were some victories. During session in Kentucky, the advocates very effectively educated lawmakers that it would be better to incentivize healthier purchases — because all the research says incentivizing healthier purchases works better than restricting access programs.VirginiaYes. Letting people buy food works better than banning what people can eat. RachelAnd so they actually got a legislator to to come off of a bill that he had supported and to propose a new bill for an incentive-based program. So I think that education work in some political contexts was very successful.But then we saw the White House call governors and said, "Well, you couldn't get this through your legislature, so now you need to do it through an executive order." And that's where we really have seen the most harm done with these proposals that have come straight out of of governors offices under pressure from RFK. I think my long-term view of this is that we are going to have to see the harm done in a handful of states, and see how much of a mess it is for retailers. Still to be determined if retailers sue over these restrictions, which really put all the costs on them to police their grocery lines. I hope what happens is we have, at worst, a couple of states implement these rules, we see the harm done, and we walk it back. And we see that the MAHA thing was a fad that we recover from in SNAP. Because at the end of the day we're talking about a $6 a day benefit. People are not able to meet all of their grocery needs with SNAP, regardless. You may accomplish shifting the order in which people check out. Maybe we'll put all of our fresh, healthy foods at the front of the of the conveyor belt to use our SNAP benefits on, but we're still going to buy our kids the birthday treat that they deserve to have. So it's a big old waste of time, in my opinion. And I hope that it's a fad we are able to move on from in the long run.VirginiaI hope so. MAHA is the worst version of it, but we did have Michael Pollan and Marion Nestle arguing for no soda on SNAP back in the mid-2000s. So it does seem to be this thing that we keep circling back to. And I think it is part and parcel with "it feels good to do food drives, but not to make SNAP more robust." It's this idea that all poor people need is wealthy white people to tell them how to eat, and that will solve hunger.RachelYeah. You are right that that instinct has been there for a long time, and it it probably will outlive it. In a number of states the American Heart Association came out in support of these bills. We had some doctors groups come out in support of these bills. But where they would get stuck—and this is where these proposals quickly fall apart—is how do you define the ingredients of these processed foods. Even, let's say a soda. So you had, in some states, the proposal was, "anything with bubbles is a soda." And therefore you can't buy it with SNAP. But then you have the doctor being like, wait, I did tell my patient to buy the diet soda or the 30 calorie soda. VirginiaAnd what about seltzer!RachelIt's so arbitrary! And if you look at the way that grocery stores label their products, they're by category. They're not by healthy or unhealthy. There is no universal healthy or unhealthy label, as you well know. So it's all well and good when it's moralizing in the hypothetical. But I had to spend a solid four months sitting on a SNAP restrictions work group for the state of Ohio. It was appointed by our governor. And I was in there with industry folks, grocery folks, from health care talking about the nuts and bolts of how to put this into effect in Ohio, which we're going to have to do in the end of 2026. And once you get into the definitions, it falls apart very quickly. So I wish we could go back to focusing on the bigger important things, but I think we're going to have to keep re-educating people every time this wave of this fad, this intention comes around. People need to be reminded that SNAP is there as an economic support to supplement low wages. If we really wanted people to not need SNAP, we need to have a higher wage economy. And that would be a much more straightforward way to solve the problem. VirginiaIt feels very part and parcel with the whole ultra-processed food conversation, which, similarly, when people start defining it, they're like, well, wait, what is ultra processed? What do we mean? It's everything, which then quickly becomes nothing. RachelIt's a distraction. But here we are. We still work.VirginiaOkay, so it's December. This is the biggest month of the year for charitable giving. I think you did a great job of explaining there's a role for food pantries and food bank systems in all of this. But that's not the full solution. How should people think about charitable giving, especially this December, right now, given what we're up against?RachelI love that people are invested in charitable giving at the end of the year. I personally do the same thing, and I try to look at the organizations that are doing the most long-term policy advocacy, because I'm looking at the upstream solutions, and those are often the most under-resourced organizations. You can look at the 990s of organizations. You can look at their overall budgets online and see that your typical food bank, or really any direct service, often has a many millions of dollar budget. But an advocacy organization that's there to change a policy that would help a million people often has a budget of maybe a couple hundred thousand for the year. So when you donate to a policy advocacy organization or a legal aid organization, your donation goes a lot farther and is much higher impact. Because even if you can't give $10,000 and you can only give $200 or $50, you're going to make a really big impact on those smaller organizations' budgets. So that's one place I would think about. This year, I am doing a lot of donations around immigrant support, given the onslaught of what's happening in this country against our immigrant communities. There are a number of organizations, mostly small and sometimes kind of fitting into the mutual aid category, that are trying to provide direct support as well as legal support to immigrant communities right now as they're under attack. So that is what I think, in this moment, is a really good investment. At the same time, the charitable food system is very dependent on donations this time of year too, because lots of people in the community turn to them. They know that they might be able to get a turkey at Thanksgiving. They know they might be able to get a Christmas meal from them. So those are never bad investments. I do think they are very good stewards of the donations and the money that they get. But if you can look a little bit deeper in your community and see where a policy advocacy organization exists—every single one of your states has at least one or two core social justice organizations that would really benefit from donations this time of year.VirginiaAnd I'll just make the point that if you are giving to the local food pantry, think dollars over donations of goods, because they can do a lot more with your money. They can buy in bulk. They know more what their community needs, rather than you assuming that it's something you have in your pantry. That's that's probably like the least impactful way to donate.Rachel100 percent. And a very common mistake that well meaning people make all the time is donating products that are hard to readily consume. Donating a box of mac and cheese, but not the milk and the butter that goes with it. Or a can of beans that needs a can opener. If you're going to do canned goods, make it a pop top because so the people can open it. A lot of times homeless ministries really benefit from those canned soups or whatever, but they need to be accessible without a can opener. So if you are going to do a food drive—I know my kids' school does one, it's a great way for kids to get hands on experience with it being involved— just think through, could this be a meal on its own, rather than, is this going to be something that someone's unable to use without other fresh products?VirginiaLet's talk a little bit about mutual aid. This is something Burnt Toast as a community, we've been just starting to wrap our arms around. We did a very successful Mutual Aid drive at the start of November to help with the benefits shut down, and raised around $11,000 that we were able to distribute to, I think it was 62 folks in our community. So that was great. It's something we want to do more of, and I know a lot of listeners want to do it in their own communities. But there are some things that come up for folks. I've heard people say, "I don't feel comfortable donating to someone I don't know." And some of this, I think, is a little bit of that internalized moralizing stuff that we were talking about, where it's like, am I just giving money to a random person and I don't know what they're using it on? So talk us through your take on mutual aid and some of the concerns you hear coming up around it. RachelI think mutual aid is a beautiful thing that has existed for many, many generation. It hasn't just been in the modern online era.VirginiaRight now, it's a social media hashtag.RachelThat's right, that's right. But it's always been in communities, and you could talk to communities all over the country, and they would say they wrap their arms around folks and share what they have in times of crisis. And that's what the modern era of mutual aid is allowing us to do—but with people who don't live in our physical neighborhood, because we're so segregated as a society. My fundamental belief is that cash is the best way to provide someone with the dignity to make decisions for themselves on what their family needs in that moment. I have no idea whether you need a bus pass or a pack of cigarettes or money for rent or whatever you need to get through that day as a human being. You should have the autonomy to decide what that is. When I started this conversation saying I've worked on SNAP for 20 years, because it's the best thing we have—if we had a robust cash assistance program, I would work on that. There are really nice models in some communities of how to target mutual aid towards groups who are otherwise getting excluded from public benefits and other programs. Here in Ohio, we have a local, organic thing called AMIS, it stands for Americans Making Immigrants Safe. And it's a locally funded cash assistance program for families who are excluded from public benefits. They're seeking asylum, they're working with a lawyer to get their paperwork through. They're stuck waiting on their green card, whatever it may be. And so that is a way that cash can be distributed to folks who are getting excluded from SNAP and excluded from Medicaid. So I really like that program, because there are folks doing the work of the connecting. I don't speak the languages of everybody who needs connecting to that program, and I would never be able to find through Facebook those folks who need that the most. So I think that's a great model. But I also think another really cool model that evolved during the shutdown was an organization called Propel. They have an app that people use to manage their SNAP benefits. And we were talking as the shutdown was looming, and they were like, "What can we do? Should we encourage people to donate to food pantries or whatever?" And I was like, "No, just use your app to give people cash." And they did! They figured out a way to do it. I don't know how many millions of people that they helped, but they were giving a $50 cash payment to the same families who were losing out on their SNAP benefit. So I think that kind of creativity of just saying, "Trust people with $50 in cash and let them decide what they need in this moment." As the giver, you don't own the choice, right? If that person gets ends up buying something that you personally wouldn't spend your money on, that is not on you. And that is not a waste of a donation. That is you just putting goodness into the world and giving somebody else the dignity to decide with themselves what they need in that moment. So that's my take. Get over yourself. Just give people cash.VirginiaYes, yes. Thank you, Rachel. I love that so much. I think it's just a moment when you feel those thoughts coming up, and it's important to pause and say, oh, wait, this is me thinking I know how other people should live when of course we don't. Of course we are not navigating what they are navigating in a day. But we can all imagine how would it feel if whatever our source of comfort, or vice, or coping strategy is, was suddenly inaccessible because somebody was telling you it wasn't good for you. RachelAnd that's the beauty of what mutual aid can do. We do all the other moralizing in our public systems. Families in the child welfare system are heavily scrutinized and penalized. People who are experiencing homelessness are heavily scrutinized. People going through drug treatment, who have had a traffic violation. There are a million other ways we police people in society. We don't need to do that with mutual aid.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterRachelWell, as a longtime listener, I will say I've gotten great ideas from other people's butter. So thank you for having this segment. Honestly, the thing that brings me the most joy right now is reading Anne of Green Gables to my daughters. We are just about to finish the third book, which is Anne of the Island. And it's, you know, from a million years ago, set in Prince Edward Island in Canada.  I will say what is just cracking me up with each chapter is the way that parents are just as annoying in the early 1900s as they are today. Anne is a school teacher in one of the books, and the things that parents complain about, like my Johnny really deserved an A on that test, are all the same things that our poor teachers have to deal with right now. We have screens in our house. I am not some puritanical Little House on the Prairie mother, but it's the one thing we do before bed is we've been reading Anne of Green Gables. So now we're starting to binge all the different PBS series. There's Anne with an E, Anne of Green Gables. There are redos, there's a 1980s version that's amazing. So all things Anne of Green Gables right now are bringing me joy.VirginiaI'm so rooting for this in my own life. My kids don't take my book recommendations. So there is a copy of Anne of Green Gables sitting in my family room right now that I'm just, like, waiting patiently for someone to discover. If they know I want it too much, it won't happen. So I just leave things like that out. I'm really hoping to join you in this Anne of Green Gables magic soon.RachelYou can mention that Anne is a real troublemaker, that's what got my 10 year old into it. It was when I told her some of the snippets of the ways that Anne breaks rules. Then she was like, oh, all right, maybe I'll try it.VirginiaI love it. My Butter is a really good cookie recipe. It is a vegan chocolate chip cookie recipe, which I was extremely suspicious of—it uses banana instead of egg and peanut butter. But they are so good and chewy and it's so easy to make that I've actually been baking them more than just scooping the store-bought cookie dough, which I will always be a fan of, because the ease is unmatched. But this is a really easy recipe. They're super delicious. I don't think there's anything healthy or special about them, but if you have someone who can’t do eggs or whatever, it's a nice option to have. And this time of year we need a lot of treats.RachelMy daughter's art teacher just told me that she's having a fully vegan Thanksgiving, and I was super impressed with her, and trying to figure out how I could possibly gift her something at the end of year. So I'm going to try your cookie recipe. VirginiaYay! Rachel, this was so helpful and informative. Thank you for everything you're doing. Tell folks, how can we support your work? If we want to learn more, where should we follow you?RachelThank you for having me on. I have been listening to, and learning from you for many years, both on the parenting side, with little picky eaters with your first book, and—oh my gosh, I want to show you my fan girl real quick. I'm sorry. Cut this out of the podcast, if you want. But here is a copy of—I know this is like, not a live video thing where your listeners can see me, but I am holding up Fat Talk. I was a pre-order! Let me show you, and I got it signed by you at your local bookstore. But anyway, I love your books, and I have learned a lot from you over the years. So I just want to say thank you for that. In terms of where you can find me, I mostly hang out on LinkedIn. I lead a consulting team because I don't like real jobs. So we actually do consulting projects for lots of different organizations that are all in the SNAP advocacy space. You can also find us at our website, and learn a little bit more about the advocacy that we're doing and the organizations that we work with. But we are always trying to build more SNAP advocates, whether as a volunteer, as a person with lived experience who wants to go and testify before Congress and talk about why SNAP is important, or just someone who wants to write a check and support organizations. We can always point you in the right direction. So feel free to reach out if you're interested in learning more about SNAP.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!If you've ever received food assistance, tell us what else people don't understand about SNAP in the comments. And if you'd like to help with ongoing Burnt Toast Mutual Aid efforts, fill out this form. We'll be figuring out our next round of support after the holidays!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it's time for your December Extra Butter episode.Today we've got a couple of rants and answers to your listener questions. On the agenda: ⭐️ The tyranny of School Spirit Weeks — especially during the holiday season! ⭐️ How it feels to date another fat person 👀🔥⭐️ How we're surviving — even thriving? — this Ozempic Season. To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber.Join us here! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 222 TranscriptVirginiaOkay, before we dive in, I have a quick rant, which I think the moms listening are really going to feel me on. I would like, Corinne, to quickly rant about school spirit weeks. Because they're really breaking me a little bit this year. Do you know what school spirit weeks are like?CorinneWell, I saw this on our agenda, and I was like, wait, what grade is your oldest child in?VirginiaShe's in seventh grade. CorinneOkay, that is too young for school spirit weeks. VirginiaOhhh Corinne. Corinne. Sweet summer child. School spirit weeks start in preschool. I've been doing this the entire time I've had a child attending any sort of school.CorinneBut that's the whole thing! That’s more work for parents.VirginiaCorrect. School spirit weeks predate a child's cognitive ability to have school spirit.CorinneThat's not fair! Then who is it for? That makes it seem like it's for the teachers. Not that teachers don't deserve to have joyful spirit filled weeks.VirginiaSure, sure, I always want to appreciate the teachers. I don't know that the teachers enjoy it that much either though.CorinneWho is setting this up?The PTA or something?VirginiaThe PTA sets up some of them. Part of the problem in my own school community, is that school spirit weeks come from several different factions, and they don't appear to have ever coordinated their calendars. The elementary student council runs one, so it's a bunch of fifth graders organizing it. So they're jazzed for it! But they're expecting pre-K through fifth grade to participate, which doesn't make sense because the younger kids can't do it themselves. And then the week after they do theirs, we have Red Ribbon Week, which is a drug awareness thing. So there are themes like "it's no sweat to say no to drugs" so wear your sweatpants. CorinneUmm, okay.VirginiaBecause I'm sure wearing sweatpants as children completely prevented both of us from ever trying any drugs of any kind.CorinneI was really thinking I could come up with some great themes for that week. But I shall say nothing more of that here. Not for fifth grade.VirginiaSo the high school does their own thing. The middle school and elementary school are sometimes synced up, but sometimes they're not. Sometimes both my children have a random pajama day, but sometimes only one. They just come at us. Holiday spirit week is coming up this month, but they can't be too "it's Christmas" because they're trying to be non-denominational. But it'll be like, "wear your winter hats!" "wear something with snow on it!" CorinneOh my gosh. Are your kids into it?VirginiaI am fortunate that my kids historically only care about the day they can wear pajamas to school. Of all the themes of the week, that's usually the only one they're really like, "I want pajama day." And if they're allowed to bring a stuffy to school. But I should also note that we may re-up this rant in June because for the final 26 days of the school year, my school does something called the ABC Countdown, where every day is a letter theme, and it's like "B is for beach day, bring your beach towel to school."CorinneWhat?!?VirginiaIt's like all counting down to the end of the year?CorinneWhy are we making school harder? I don't think I ever participated in a Spirit Day, I will say.Virginia I do remember Crazy Hat Day being something I was very passionate about in middle school.CorinneThat does sound like something you would be passionate about.VirginiaBut when they are like, "wear sports team stuff," we don't support sports teams, you know? Despite my recent foray into football, I'm not going to get either my children in an Eagles jersey. That's a non-starter. I don't know sometimes they're low lifts, but even when they're low lifts, it's another thing to remember. And I have so many things in my brain at all times related to my children. I don't need another thing to remember. I also do think, depending on the district and the depending the way it's executed, spirit weeks can be really ableist and classist. There is often pressure to buy special things. If it's a crazy sweater day and you don't happen to be a family that owns a whimsical Christmas sweater, what are you supposed to do? Go buy your kids something? Not to sound like a Scrooge, because this is a December episode, but I'm coming out against all school spirit, period, as a concept, at the moment.CorinneAs a child-free person, I'm with you. I would not be participating. VirginiaMine mostly don't care. So we mostly opt out. But every now and then, there's this last minute, suddenly caring about it and it's so much pressure. So I'm opening the floor up to the listeners on this one. I'm sure there are people who would like to share their own rants. And teachers, I want to know, do you hate it, too? Is it making your job better? In which case I will try harder to participate, because I want your job to be better. CorinneI mean, I'm just imagining having 20 kids at the end of the school year with beach towels. It doesn't sound like it would make teaching easier.VirginiaAnd that's just B day. You've got 24 more to go.CorinneI'm sure 50 percent of kids lose their towels. VirginiaWhat do they even do with the towels once they get to school? It's never been made clear. Well, that's my rant about school spirit week. Now I have one more topic for us to get into before we go to listener questions. I have been struggling with a lot of getting dressed anxiety recently. It seems to have upticked for me. Do you go through periods where it is harder to figure out what to wear than others? How would you say it ebbs and flows for you?CorinneI want to say yes. I feel like there are a few different factors. I think one factor for me, and I assume probably for you, it's usually centered around social events, or if I have to leave the house. VirginiaThe worst. CorinneAnd then the other thing is if I just don't have anything comfortable to wear.VirginiaPants in particular. If the pants are not comfortable, God, it's just the worst. How are you going to make it through the day? CorinneOne thing I've really been leaning into—which is probably a controversial thing to say, as someone who makes part of their living writing about clothes—I've really been leaning into sweatpants.VirginiaBecause we're trying to be drug free, obviously, for Red Ribbon Week.CorinneWhat even what was that? Sweat? No sweat to say no to drugs? It doesn't even make sense.VirginiaIt's actually quite sweaty to say no to drugs sometimes.CorinneI've been leaning into wearing sweatpants out of the house. I have some of the elastic ankle Old Navy sweatpants. And I did Google how do you make sweatpants look less like you're wearing sweatpants?VirginiaOh, and what did you learn? Because this is what I've been working on, too. CorinneI looked at a lot of pictures. One direction you could go is wearing a button down shirt with sweatpants, so you're kind of fancy on top, sweatpants on the bottom. I've seen some fancier shoes with sweatpants. Like a loafer or something. VirginiaOh, interesting. I hadn't thought about that. CorinneAnother direction people go is full athleisure. Like, matching sweatshirt, make it a set. I also saw a lot of people wearing sweatpants with a nice t-shirt and jewelry. Like chunky necklaces, that kind of thing.VirginiaOh, that's fun. This is giving me a lot of good ideas. CorinneYou could definitely search sweatpants outfits on Pinterest or something.VirginiaOkay, this is very helpful.I have realized, for me, 100% of the time, it's not actually about the clothes at all. I won't share too many details, because they aren't my stories to tell. But I'm in a rough parenting season, and I've had some stuff going on. Which is why spirit weeks are especially unhelpful to me. At the moment, there is enough on my plate. CorinneIt is quite full. Yeah. VirginiaAnd in the last two weeks, where it has been very intense, this wardrobe anxiety has spiked so much. One day, it happened right before I was going to get on a Zoom with you! It took me 25 minutes to pick out what to wear. Guys, Corinne does not care. I could show up in my pajama. There is no bar here. CorinneI probably wouldn't even have noticed. VirginiaBut I was trying on everything, and everything felt wrong, and everything felt uncomfortable. And I think this was just where my other stress was landing. But it was really hard to break out of the cycle and recognize that. Part of my brain was getting it. It was like, "Pick a shirt. It doesn't matter. You're getting on Zoom to talk to Corinne." But I couldn't do it. I was totally just spiraling. So the spiral part of my brain was just like, "Should I layer somehow??" So my question is: What do you do when you're in that panic spiral to break out of it? Because logic was not working.CorinneThat is a great question. I'm having so many different thoughts. Next time, you could text me and say, "What should I wear to the Zoom?"VirginiaI mean, that is a great solution to that specific problem. CorinneShould we start doing spirit weeks for Zoom, where we show up to record in our pajamas?VirginiaOr sweatpants, no sweat?CorinneIt's a great question. How do you stop yourself when you're literally spiraling? VirginiaBecause you’re never going to make it better. Trying on three more outfits won't make you like any outfit any better. CorinneI always end up with a pile of stuff on my bed that then I later just scrape onto the floor and into a laundry basket of shame.VirginiaI'm doing that load of shame laundry right now. It's so pointless. But the fact that I did it before talking to you was really clarifying that this is about something else. Because obviously, that's not normally something I stress about. And then, anytime I had to leave the house for even minor stakes, like school pickup or kids' appointment or something where I was going to be visible, it would happen again. And I did stress shop a little bit. I will say, I don't think that's the solution. But I did stress shop, and I did at least specifically target my stress shopping, where I was like, "I am trying to get a very cozy sweatshirt. That is my goal right now". Because, to your point about comfort, I was like, I think if I feel physically cozy and comfortable in what I'm wearing, it will lower my stress a little bit. CorinneYou have also talked in the past about being a real uniform dresser. VirginiaYes. I have a basic cold weather uniform of joggers and a sweater or joggers and a button down. So this is the other reason I knew, okay, it's not about the clothes. Because I already have the uniform. But suddenly the uniform felt completely wrong. And I was like, no, no, this isn't what I should wear. So I don't have answers. I'm just throwing it out there because I bet other folks have experienced this. And it sucks! If this is a place your anxiety goes it just is a really hard thing to break out of. But dressy sweatpants, I think, is, is my uniform. And maybe one other idea is: When I can feel it's going to be a week like that, just decide ahead of time that it's dressy sweatpants every day. This is not the week to try on the jeans that you keep trying to convince yourself work.CorinneThat's probably wise. Maybe if you find yourself spiraling, and it's like, how can you snap yourself out of it? Put on music. Eat something. Or do something else to like, bring you back down to earth. VirginiaI think your idea about texting someone, like texting you, or texting someone else and being like, "I'm in a wardrobe spiral. Tell me what to wear," is really good. Just so people don't worry too much, I have a lot of support. Things are okay. It's just I noticed this was where the anxiety was showing up, and it wasn't a useful place for it to show up. And I thought, hey, it feels sort of like a Burnt Toast topic. All right, should we get into questions?CorinneYes, I'll read the first question. Is it affirming to date another plus size person? I feel like it would be, and it's something I want. VirginiaHell yes. Thumbs up for me. CorinneYeah. I also feel like hell yes. VirginiaI mean, look, mixed weight relationships happen all the time. They're very normal. It is totally fine to be a fat person with a thin person. Fat people are sexy and attractive to all people. So it is not like only other plus size people will find you attractive. But I think there's some comfort and safety and a shared language.CorinneI agree with that. I think part of what has been affirming for me is also just being like, yeah, I am attracted to other fat people. So it makes sense that other people would be attracted to me.VirginiaYes, yes. 100 percent. I completely co-sign that. It's very freeing and fun to realize and explore.  Jack and I call it "hot people problems." Like, you know, if your pants don't fit, you know, leggings fall down a lot. Just all the ways that, fat bodies move through the world and are not accommodated. It's like we have this shorthand joke, like, "whoops, hot people problems."CorinneThat's really sweet. I love that. Like, you knock something over with your butt, and you're like, "hot people problems."VirginiaHot people problems! And I think it's really fun to have someone you spend a lot of time with be someone who really gets that and is in it with you, right?CorinneAnd I love that reframing where you're like, "oh, like, I did something I could be embarrassed of," but instead it's a positive thing.VirginiaIt doesn't feel embarrassing. It's just welp, that's happening again. And I could imagine being with a straight-size partner, even someone who's super affirming, and super into your body, you would still would feel a little more vulnerable sharing some of that stuff. CorinneYeah totally. I mean, I will also say, even if you're both plus size, like, you could still have very different experiences of stuff.VirginiaEveryone has their own stuff with their body and their history of their body. I mean, we answered that question last month about when one person is pursuing weight loss and one person is not, and how to navigate those sorts of things. All of that can still come up. So I don't think it's just "look for someone in a bigger body," but leaning into "you find bigger bodies attractive" is really empowering and great. CorinneTotally agree. VirginiaAll right, I'll ask the next question. How are you both feeling towards the scale and seeing your weight? I'm navigating this in the later stages of recovery. Why do numbers hold so much power over us?CorinneA great question. In some ways, I feel I am the wrong person to answer this, because I feel less activated by seeing my weight. I think part of my own internal work has just been caring less about numbers and letting a number just be a number. Measuring different parts of my body to figure out if clothes will fit, getting weighed at the doctor's office, it's all whatever. But I know that numbers are really hard for a lot of people.VirginiaWould you say there was a time in your life where numbers were a lot harder for you? CorinneMy relationship to weight numbers, at least for a long time, was, like, I actually am not able to control this, you know? Or the effort to control it is insane. So, like, why? I think I also realized early on that different people weighed such different amounts. I remember as maybe a teenager realizing whoa, I weigh a lot more than my mom, but we're the same pant size. Obviously not true anymore. But I don't know, weight is so arbitrary in some ways.VirginiaI think what you're articulating is where most people are trying to get! I think it's a really great place to be, and I'm there a lot of the time, and then I'm not always. And so I'm sort of a middle of the road on this one. I should also say, I've never been in formal recovery from an eating disorder. I think if you're doing that work, this is something to really be working with your therapy team about. So that's sort of a little different than what Corinne and I can share here. But I do think that's the goal. I do think there's a lot of power in letting the numbers have less power. I think where I've been able to make that progress is on clothing sizes. Because just learning the absolute complete lack of science or logic or rhyme or reason to women's clothing sizes is maddening but liberating. I am able to absolutely not care, and have a completely neutral reaction, to whether I'm in the extra large in a line or the 3X in a line or any size. Other than I'm annoyed if I'm in the 3X because I'm like, "well, this is fake size inclusion." But I'm not taking that on personally. Whatever size I'm wearing, I'm just like, oh, okay, that's what this brand is saying. And I think that's hard. I think that did not used to be true for me. And I think a lot of people feel a lot of attachment to clothing sizes and so really learning to just have no reaction to those because they just tell you nothing.CorinneMaybe my not caring now actually comes from weighing myself so much as a younger person. Because I remember seeing how my weight fluctuates over the course of a day. It fluctuates with my period. I won't say numbers, but a thin person could be like, "I just went on a big diet and I lost X amount of pounds," and I'm like, "that's me taking a poop." I could fluctuate that much from morning to lunch time. I don't know. VirginiaEverything you're saying is just gold. It is a lot about just continually reminding yourself of how meaningless these numbers are, how arbitrary and fluctuating they are, and giving yourself permission to step back. And that's just not always the easiest thing to do, depending on your brain chemistry and a lot of other factors. I mean, I will say I'm completely not triggered by having my neck or my calves measured. That is just like, huh okay, that's what that is. CorinneIn some ways, it is useful information to have. And if you can just let it be information, then there's no value attached to it.VirginiaI wrote about weighing myself at the doctor's office out of curiosity a few months ago, and how that then did trigger a spiral, which surprised me. And so I don't want to weigh myself at the doctor's office ever again. So I think it's also worth noting, in which contexts will you feel more vulnerable engaging with these numbers? And that's a very vulnerable context for a lot of us. I am not going to have a scale in my house. I have daughters. I don't think scales are responsible home items, especially if you're a parent. But I do think I would feel more neutral if I were to randomly get on a hotel scale or something. Do you know what I mean? And part of it is, like, is this scale calibrated correctly? Did they put it on carpet and then it actually isn't working at all? CorinneThat's a great point, too. VirginiaThey're not giving you an accurate number most of the time. So I think it's also fine to, just as a protective stance, say, "I don't engage with those numbers." But if you do happen to come across it, remembering that it tells you very little about yourself.CorinneYeah. All right. How are you managing to stay positive in the Ozempic World?VirginiaOh man. Are we staying positive? CorinneI don't know. Before we started recording, we were talking about how both of us, and everyone we know, is holding on by a thread.VirginiaAnd not necessarily about Ozempic, just about life in general, the state of the world, government, etc. It's rough out there. CorinneIt's feeling like a hard time to be alive.VirginiaIt's hard be a human with a body these days. I think I am doing some protective things. I am continuing to curate my social media and unfollow people I need to unfollow. We talked about our love of Bad Skinny Girl TV, but I am mindful of how much skinny person content I consume, if I'm being honest. Especially when I was in the spiral in the last week of not being able to get dressed—because some of that did turn into body criticism. And I'm able to look at that now and be like, that was not useful. It's just a reminder that if you have something else going on, you'll turn it into dumping on your body, because that's what we've been taught to do. I'm doing that Fattify Your Feed series on the newsletter now, because, I want to keep looking at awesome fat people. I want to lean into that, as opposed to the toxic content.CorinneWell, I have been slightly wondering if we're starting to see a kind of Ozempic backlash, because The Cut just published that piece about kind of like GLP1s making life a bit miserable.VirginiaI was really interested they did that—because they certainly published some of the most pro-GLP1 content at the beginning of this whole thing.CorinneYeah, but at this point, the “I'm taking a GLP1” content is boring, because there's been so much of it. So now we've moved on to actually, there's another side to this story. I think we're still in the everyone's getting skinny thing, but.VirginiaI think, too, the more I hear people's stories and understand what goes into the decision for a lot of folks, the more I'm able to a have a lot of compassion for the decision. Very often it's not just "I want to feel better in my clothes," or whatever. Very often it is I need this to access fertility treatment. I need this to be treated fairly in my workplace. All of those sorts of reasons where it's like, you got to do what you got to do to survive and get what you need. So I'm less triggered by people's individual choices around it at this point. It's just like any other pursuit of weight loss—sometimes it makes sense to pursue weight loss, not because I think it's the "best thing" for anyone, but because it feels necessary. And so I'm able to say, well, it's feeling necessary to that person. And I'm glad it's not feeling necessary to me personally, but that's a function of a lot of privilege. I think another thing I want to say—and this is ironic, as someone who writes a newsletter and produces a podcast all about anti-fatness and diet culture—but being less engaged with the conversation is good sometimes. I don't mean be less engaged with our work, but, I've been thinking about it since we did our problematic faves episode. Like, it's okay to just let some of it skate by. CorinneYeah. Well at this point it's like, the Ozempic conversation has been going on pretty hardcore since.... 2023.VirginiaYeah, January 2023. CorinneThat's a long time to be getting mad every time.VirginiaWe're almost three years into it.CorinneI just can't get as enraged anymore.VirginiaAnd the conversation is not changing, right? "Is this killing the body positivity movement? What does it mean to not have food noise?" I'm getting the same interview requests over and over. Journalists don't have any new questions to ask me about it. So there's not a lot of news, or if there is, it's actually old news being repackaged. It doesn't change the core conversation around its role as a weight loss drug . So I think just finding ways to let it be, and stay true to what you want to do.Okay, okay, all right, I'm going to bring us up with the last question, which is a fun one. What is your fav winter holiday tradition and or food.Corinne Love this question. VirginiaI know you love these food tradition type questions.Corinne I love to talk about food. I mean, there's almost so many, it's hard to know where to begin. I feel like the first thing that comes to mind is soup. Aren't you not a big soup fan?VirginiaYou know, I'm reclaiming soup. I'm on a journey. CorinneI love soup so much. VirginiaI'm coming around quite a lot on soup this season in particular. CorinneOkay, great. Soup. As far as holidays go, I feel like my family usually does a big breakfast-y thing on the day of Christmas, and I really enjoy that. Like waffles and grapefruit and stuff. I love that. But I'm really here for all of it.Virginia Yeah, really not turning away any food traditions. I am becoming a soup person. And I realized a lot of that was about letting go of diet culture. I think soup has a very diet-y connotation, and realizing that that it is possible for it to be not remotely diet-y is how I'm able to enjoy it now, with a lot of bread, with a lot of cheese. There are many very non diet-y soup. CorinneCreamy soups. VirginiaCreamy soups! Love it. Probably my favorite Christmas tradition, since my mom is British, we always have crackers on the table. For folks who don't know are these long paper tubes. They're twisted at each end. They have a firecracker thing inside that just makes a bang. And before you start the meal, everybody comes, there's this complicated way you cross your hands, and everybody pulls the crackers together all at once. CorinneWow, that sounds so fun. VirginiaIt's always like herding cats. Like, is everyone ready to come to the table? Can we all hold the crackers? No one can ever remember how to move their hands. And then there are paper crowns inside and a joke, and sometimes little prizes and stuff. It's the tradition that I always felt like, as a kid, and as a British American child, made my Christmas feel special, because my American friends didn't have those. So I really love that my kids have that it's really fun. I think it has become a lot more popular here now. It used to be really hard to find them when I was a kid, and now there are tons of options. So that's probably my favorite holiday tradition. Food-wise, we always do roast lamb for Christmas dinner, which I love, and my mom makes all the cookies. And there are endless Christmas cookies that I love. I realized the other day, I think cookies are my favorite type of dessert. It's tied with brownies, but, I'm much more interested in a cookie than I am in a cake or candy situation. And so a holiday that's really celebrating many types of cookies, I just am like, yes please. CorinneI'm with you. I love cookies.VirginiaI also make a lot of really good pasta sauces this time of year, like the ones that you let simmer for a bunch of hours. It's just comfort food season. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterCorinneShould we do Butter? VirginiaYes, let's do some Butter. I have a pretty good Butter I think. I regularly update folks on what my 12 year old and I are watching for our mother/daughter bonding TV show time, and I have exciting news for the elder millennials, which is: We have begun our journey with Buffy the Vampire Slayer.CorinneI shall now admit that I have never watched.Virginia I had a feeling you might be one of the non-Buffy millennials.CorinneIt's very embarrassing. I don't know. VirginiaIt's okay. Jack has never watched it either.CorinneI don't know why I've never seen it, because it also feels like it's just a cultural reference point.VirginiaWell, and not to tell you your culture, but it's very big in queer culture?CorinneI was going to say. People are constantly like, you know, Buffy, and I'm like, no, I don't.VirginiaWell, it's a very big part of my culture, and it's the show my siblings and I bond over the most, so they're very excited that she's being inducted into it. And she wasn't feeling it for the first few episodes. For any parents starting it with a child of generation alpha or something: They are used to a higher production value. They are used to a crisper television experience. If you're coming from Wednesday and going to Buffy, you're going to be like, wow, the monsters are less scary here. But that's actually great because it also means it's more campy and less scary, which is good for a show we watch in the evening. And Joss Whedon, creator of Buffy, was canceled for being a toxic man. So we have to hold that together with it was also a show very much made by women, written by women, and starring women. So I canceled Joss Whedon and keep Buffy is how I'm navigating that one, and we'll be discussing it. But she's in now. She's hooked. We're in season two. It's great.CorinneWell, since you're recommending TV, I'm going to recommend TV, too. I'm going to recommend the show Pluribus, which has just come out on Apple TV. I have only watched three episodes. One of the reasons why I'm recommending it is because it takes place in Albuquerque, which is really fun for me to watch. And it's from the creator of Breaking Bad. So if you enjoyed that, you might enjoy this. It's, it is a little more like sci-fi, post-apocalyptic, but it's raising some interesting theoretical questions. And I feel like if you have enjoyed shows like Severance or The Good Place, you might like it. VirginiaOkay, that sounds really interesting. How's the violence level? Because Breaking Bad got too violent for me.CorinneSo far it's less than Breaking Bad, for sure. It is kind of like a post-apocalyptic thing. So the first episode involves a huge event, but, like, it's not a gory event. VirginiaOkay, that's good to know.CorinneWhereas I'm remembering the first episode of Breaking Bad is pretty gory, I think they're dissolving a person in a bathtub or something disgusting.VirginiaYeah, it starts out hot and by the final season, I was like, I can't, I'm done. I can't do it anymore. I also have a lower threshold than most people for violent content on TV. But that sounds great.This was a great episode! We want to hear your favorite food traditions. We want to hear all the things in the comments. Come chat with us. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay and it’s time for your Indulgence Gospel — Thanksgiving Edition! We often skip an episode drop on this day, but given how high pressure Thanksgiving can be for food, bodies and people, we thought...maybe you need a little Indulgence Gospel, a little Butter, and a little distraction from whatever your holiday weekend entails?We've got you: A Helen Rosner-inspired fashion epiphany. Thoughts and feelings about Black Friday. A very good Corinne clothing rant.Our secret shame places. And more! You do need to be a paid Just Toast subscriber to listen to this full conversation. Membership starts at just $5 per month! Join Just Toast! Don't want an ongoing commitment? Click "buy for $4!" to listen to just this one. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈This episode may contain affiliate links. Shopping our links is another great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 221 TranscriptVirginiaOkay friends, buckle up for some good rants. I think this is a nice little Thanksgiving gift, to have a little Burnt Toast in your ears before you deal with whatever this weekend is for you. I hope it's lovely. But it is not always lovely.CorinneShould we take a moment to give thanks for the Burnt Toast listeners?VirginiaObviously. I give thanks for them all the time! We are very grateful for the Burnt Toasties, and very grateful for everyone who made it over here, from Substack to Patreon. We're now about a month and a half into that transition. And we really appreciate you. CorinneEverything is going smoothly.VirginiaSo let's talk about Thanksgiving a little bit. I feel like this is the time of year where I start getting emails that are like, "I've gained weight and I have to see blah, blah, blah relatives who are going to say a shame-y thing about it." Or, "What do I do when I'm at the table and my mom won't stop talking about her diet?" Thanksgiving is such a fraught time because there's so much delicious food, and people who are so weird about the food. CorinneWhen I saw this on the agenda to discuss, I had my own personal panic, because I was like, Oh my God, am I even doing Thanksgiving this year? What is the plan? At this point in my life, I live far away from most of my family. On Thanksgiving, I'm usually stopping by a friend's house, maybe bringing something. So it's pretty low key, and it's been so long since I've actually had to deal with this. VirginiaSo you don't have to do the big extended family thing?CorinneNope. And I want to say: If you don't want to go to your family's house, you don't have to go. I think there is all this pressure to keep doing things the way we've always done them. But you can change the plan. And, you know, Thanksgiving is kind of an effed up holiday.VirginiaWhat with being rooted in genocide. That's always a tough one.CorinneSo if you want to change how things are going, you could stay home and make a personal pan of stuffing, which is possibly what I'm doing. Can't say yet.VirginiaTo be clear, we're not recording this on Thanksgiving Day. By the time you hear it Corinne will know what her plans are. Thanksgiving is not a holiday that I have a lot of emotional connection to, either. My mom is British, so it was less of a focus for her when I was growing up. I don't think the food is delicious all the time, it can be a little bland. I get that people really love their mashed potatoes, and I am not ever here to carb-shame. But that is not my carb of choice. CorinneI love the food. VirginiaI'm with Samin Nosrat, who's always like, "Can it be a little spicier? Can it be more flavorful? Can there be a little more going on here?" Thanksgiving can get a little soft and mushy. Not always. I make an excellent fresh cranberry relish that really zings it all up.But if the way you do Thanksgiving is to always to reopen a bunch of old wounds, or put yourself in front of the firing squad on body toxicity, maybe don't go. Or at least, figure out a plan going into it! Do you have a group chat you can check in with? Can you take your breaks by offering to run out for more ice, or walk the dog? Going to hang out with the kids is often helpful, too. The parents will appreciate that. And if you go be with the kids, then you aren't talking about the politics or whatever the adults are doing.CorinneAnd you can get out some of your rage through running around and screaming.VirginiaDefinitely, yeah. It's tricky, though. And if you're going through it this weekend, we we feel you.CorinneI also would just say, no need to stand on ceremony. If someone's doing something weird, just tell them they're being weird. VirginiaYou're very boundary setting today. I like it. You're very like, Don't go! Tell them they are being weird!CorinneI'm just feeling like we have enough bullshit to deal with right now. If someone is telling you about their diet, just walk away.VirginiaThis is not the conversation we need to be having. CorinneYeah, come on. There's enough hard stuff.VirginiaI will link to things I've written in the past to give more nuanced scripts, if you want that option. But I'm with Corinne. I think we twist ourselves into trying to come up with the perfect response when the reality is—the other person's shitty comment is creating labor for you. So you can just be unavailable for that labor.Alright, let's talk about Black Friday. How do you feel about Black Friday? Corinne is our newsletter universe's resident shopping expert.CorinneI have such mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I love a sale. I feel true excitement receiving all the discount codes. On the other hand, do I need anything? No. On the other hand, will I participate? It seems hard to avoid, you know? VirginiaDo you try to make a list ahead of time? I often try to have a little note on my phone of big ticket items I've been thinking about. So I'll check for a good sale price on these.CorinneThat's smart. I have not done that in the past and maybe I should. I think in the past, a lot of my strategy has been to buy things that I restock. So last year on Black Friday, I bought a ton of my electrolyte drink tablets.VirginiaSure because that's a line item in your budget. Get a good deal if you can.CorinneAnd I think it could be a good time to buy electronics or whatever. Maybe I'll think about making a list. I also think it's a nice time to continue avoiding big box stuff, and choose to buy something from a smaller, local store, which maybe doesn't have the same extreme discount, but probably could really use the business.VirginiaBack when I always sent out holiday photo cards, I would always order those on Black Friday, usually from Minted or Artifact Uprising. All the photo sites have really good sales, so I would lock that in, and then it would mean they would come early enough that I could actually get them in the mail. So they would reach people by Christmas.CorinneWow, that's really smart. VirginiaIt's also a lot of a lot of executive function. And last year I didn't do photo cards, and I felt quite liberated. But also any photo holiday gifts, like, if I'm going to make albums, or get pictures of the kids printed for grandparent gifts, I will take advantage of the sale for that. That's the main thing I usually think to do. And if I've been thinking about a new item of furniture or a new appliance or something, if I start thinking about that in September, October, I'm like, oh, let me sit on that and see what the Black Friday sale is. I never do any in-person shopping for Black Friday, because I can't do crowds. I’m exclusively talking about online.CorinneWhen I used to do Thanksgiving with my family, we did sometimes go to Target or another place. It was very fun to be at Target, which is not normally open at midnight.VirginiaI haven't done that since probably, like, the 90s.  And I don't think I ever did the midnight thing!Corinneit was just kind of a weird, fun, post-eating a lot of food thing, I think. VirginiaI get it! CorinneOne year we bought my mom an iPad, and that was really exciting. VirginiaOh, that's sweet. Speaking of Target, how are all your boycotts going? We haven't checked in about our boycott efforts in a long time.CorinneI was wondering about yours too. My Amazon Prime just expired in September, and I have continued to mostly not shop there. There have been a couple of things. When I was at my mom's, I needed a light bulb that I couldn't find anywhere else online, that I ordered from Amazon. And I did watch The Summer I Turned Pretty on Prime Video. Other than that, I've been avoiding it, and it's been fine. I do have a moment of annoyance sometimes. VirginiaIt creates a little more friction.CorinneI think Target has been a little harder for me, just in terms of clothes. I really miss even just browsing the Target clothes. VirginiaOld Navy is not quite the same. CorinneIt just sometimes feels like not enough variety. I want to be able to look somewhere else. I'm curious: Are people still boycotting Target, or are people still calling for that boycott? I'm not sure.VirginiaI know. I kind of keep hoping someone ends it. because I think their sales did really go down. I've seen some reports. (Here, here and here—which talks about a boycott of Target, Amazon and Home Depot for Black Friday!) So I'm like, did we do it?I will confess to one Target lapse. Okay, two Target lapses. In October, I had the stressful week of preparing for a child's birthday and also preparing to help run our school's Book Fair week, which is a very big, complicated event. And I needed to source party decorations for the child and tablecloths for the book fair. And time was what it was. So Target was how I had to get those things done. I wish I had made other choices, but in the time I had available, with the budget that we had for these things, it is what it was. So that was my one big Target lapse, and I am trying not to get sucked back in.But in terms of my own personal struggles with consumerism, I think it is kind of a good one for me not to have available. I was thinking about my house and how many fast home items I bought at Target over the years— like throw pillows or, oh, I need this candle holder. And I haven't been buying that stuff so much this year, and I don't miss it at all. My house is still cute. It's all fine. I've been going outside the box a little more if I need a home item. So I think that's been good for me to have to step back from.CorinneDamn. That's really powerful. VirginiaAgain, if someone tells us the boycott is over, fully expect to see me with a shopping cart of Hearth & Home throw pillows. Expect a relapse.CorinneOh God. VirginiaAlright, you were telling me before we started recording that you have recently had big feelings about driving pants versus standing up pants. Please explain.CorinneI know this is a thing. People are always like, "These are standing pants, but they're not comfortable to sit in." But I wore Old Navy jeans on my very extended road trip where I'm driving nine hours a day for four days. And I was like, you know, these jeans are pretty comfortable for driving. But then when I would get out at a rest stop, the same jeans were not staying up. I was struggling. VirginiaI do think sometimes sitting in clothes stretches them out of shape for standing.CorinneYes. This is actually why elastic in jeans is so useful. And the jeans that I'm wearing aren't 100% cotton, but I think they're like 98% or something. And I could probably use a little more elastic in these.VirginiaInteresting. CorinneBut also: Is this just a reality of being fat? Where you need separate pants for standing and sitting?VirginiaDo you think it's fatness, or do you think it's just, like... fabric?CorinneI do think when you sit down, your body changes shape. So how do you have clothes that accommodate your body like being different shapes at different times?VirginiaThin people are different shapes when they stand and sit, too.CorinneBut I think they have less dramatic shifts. The bell curve is less or whatever.VirginiaListeners: If you are driving in pants right now, or standing in pants right now, please change positions and tell us how you change shape. CorinneIt's all very relevant for a holiday in which we eat a lot of food, and perhaps change shape.VirginiaWe do need our stretchy pants. And I hear you on this. I often think, "I want to wear those pants later tonight and have them look good, so I can't sit in them all day at work, because they'll get baggy." And then I think, "What a high maintenance item of clothing you are, pants." Why do pants need such coddling from me? So I'm more on the side of, fabric is bad. But I suppose you're right. As fat people, we might be pushing our clothes more. So I think what I'm hearing is those jeans could not thrive in the fast-paced environment you required of them. And that feels like a them problem.CorinneSo is the answer just sweatpants?VirginiaIt usually is. It's what I'm wearing right now. It's what I'm wearing most days. I did just pull out an old pair of Universal Standard the Moro Ponte pant. You remember when I was so into those pants a few years ago?CorinneYes. The Ponti-Ponte.VirginiaAnd I didn't wear them at all last year! I had no interest in them for some reason, and I just pulled them back out, and I was like, yeah, I'm going to wear these. These are good, stretchy, cute looking pants.Corinne That's cool. That's great. VirginiaSo they're back in rotation. But the knees do bag out if I sit in them all day. CorinneSo annoying. VirginiaPants, be better. I mean, that's sort of the mantra of this podcast. Okay, I have another fashion-related matter for us to get into. I have had a real epiphany about what we even mean when we say fashion.And I would like you to look now to your texts for some screenshots I sent you. Helen Rosner is the source material. She posted this in her stories recently, and so we're giving her full credit for this. Because it's really resonating.CorinneYes, I've had this rant for a while about the styling thing, where people are styling this dress, and then they just put on more layers. And I'm like, yeah, that's not realistic. I'm hot. I don't want to style my t-shirt and shorts by adding a sweater. VirginiaAnd it made me realize, a lot of times I struggle with feeling like I've put together "an outfit," and it's because I know I'm going to end up just wearing the tank top, or whatever the base layer of it is. And that's not going to feel like enough of an outfit.CorinneAnd so then how do we style it? I was thinking about this this summer, because of my wedding outfit, which was basically a t-shirt and shorts with a blazer. And I was like, I know at some point I'm taking this blazer off. VirginiaAnd now I'm just in a t-shirt and shorts. But you did have cute pink socks!CorinneYes. I think the answer is socks. Having cute socks. So it's still felt styled, it still felt thoughtful. And you're not going to take your socks off. But if you're wearing pants, can people see your socks? So I think the answer is accessories. I want to think more about what other accessories would be good.VirginiaWell, and I think a corollary to this conversation is Zoom Fashion. Not for our podcast recording, where I'm literally wearing sweatpants and a sweatshirt, but when I'm gonna do a Zoom for someone else's podcast or a Patreon meeting or something. And I'm like, "I need to look polished and they can't tell I'm wearing nice pants." It's really hard to get the outfit to convey much when people only see your shoulders. And so then what are you supposed to do? You're supposed to have a lot of fancy blouses for Zooming purposes? That seems weird.CorinneJewelry. You're wearing a necklace right now with a sweatshirt, and it does look like an outfit.VirginiaI am wearing a necklace with a sweatshirt. I always wear this necklace. But yes, that's true.CorinneAlso, glasses. VirginiaThat is true. Glasses, like socks, are unlikely to come off. So that does help.Helen posted some other Stories where she says, “I feel too much of fashion exists only to be photographed on the sidewalk in Nolita. Like, where's the body? Where is life?”. And she talks about how fashion content is all sort of predicated on this lifestyle fantasy of running errands where you're going to be dressed cute to go to a bakery and a bookstore and maybe an art museum. And when is that ever our lives?CorinneTotally. I know. And if I'm having a day where I'm running errands, I'm wearing sweatpants.VirginiaYou need your standing up pants!CorinneThey need to stay up because my wallet is going to be shoved in one pocket, my phone in the other, and that's like two pounds.VirginiaShe says, "The dream of being out and about, browsing in a record store, picking up a paper sleeve of flowers, grabbing a flat white, the dream of engaging in inessential commerce in a walkable city." Like that is just not my life.CorinneAnd like, in a walkable city yet wearing heels or something that you could actually never walk in. Well all of this is why Big Undies exists.VirginiaIt really is. I am now articulating something you are always writing about.To take it one layer further, I think a lot of times this is bound up in when we are feeling aspirational about thinness. I've written about how for me, thinness is sort of bound up with looking like a character in a Nancy Meyers movie. I'm in a great sweater and jeans that do fit both standing and sitting. I'm walking barefoot on the beach. And fashion is just this whole aspirational lifestyle scam, where if you achieve a certain aesthetic you believe that you're going to have the life that matches it. As opposed to saying: What does my life actually involve, and what are the clothes I need to support that actual life? CorinneI don't really have anything to add to that. But I did just want to say that Helen mentions the styling trick of belting a coat. Like, using a regular belt over your trench coat or whatever. How many times have you seen that? And how freaking annoying would that be in real life? Like, you walk into the restaurant, take off your coat, and now you have a belt that you have to carry?VirginiaIt feels like you're undressing in public! Taking off your belt is what you do when you're about to go to the bathroom. So strange. That's very intimate to do in public space. CorinneBut people are like, "Have a baggy coat? Just add a belt!"VirginiaNo. I've never in my life done that. CorinneNever going to. Never would. VirginiaA lot of fashion is just very silly. Which we knew! I just appreciated how Helen distilled it. And I feel like it's useful for me to remember this when I'm going through my little social anxiety spirals about what to wear to things. Because that's often me trying to aspire to a lifestyle rather than dress the body I have and the life I have.CorinneYeah, and think about how much more you're able to actually have conversations and engage in what's happening if you're comfortable.This is a good reminder for Thanksgiving. If you're seeing people you haven't seen in a while.VirginiaAnd if you felt like you had to put a lot of effort into a holiday outfit, which can be a real thing. I mean, related, we were talking in the Burnt Toast chat recently about the pressure of wedding guests dressing. Anytime you have a more formal event, the stress of that can be so much. And I think it's the same thing, because it's requiring you to get out of your comfort zone, and then also to maybe physically wear something that's not comfortable. And it's like, what are we trying to do here?CorinneTotally.VirginiaWell in better fashion news, I want to share that I did just finally find a pair of tall, wide calf boots that fit my calves after doing a significant amount of research. But in not good news, I would like to report that the wide calf boot market is a complete and total sham. Like, it doesn't exist. The brands that claim to do wide calf boots--I am talking about Frye boots, I am talking about Inez, I'm talking about Nordstrom, DSW, all these shoe sites. I went through every one, looking at their boot measurements. And they consider a wide calf boot to be 16.5" inch circumference. CorinneYeah, that's not big enough. VirginiaThat is a straight-size leg! That is not a plus size leg. I am a fat person who doesn't even carry my weight in my legs. That's not the fattest part of me, and the boots that ended up fitting were a Lucky Brand boot that are labeled "extra wide" to have an 18 inch circumference. My calves are like, 17. One is just below 17, and one is just over 17. Also, PS, nobody's calves are the same size. So that was also fun to learn. I went down a real rabbit hole about this. CorinneI think mine are, like, 20?VirginiaWhen I say Lucky's extra wide calf—that's going to fit someone with, like, frankly, a Mid-Sized Queen-size calf.CorinneIf they're tall, how are you wearing them? You're tucking your jeans in or?VirginiaI could tuck jeans in with these. I had given up on that fantasy. And I still don't know that I will do that, because I don't know that I like that look that much for me personally. But I really just wanted them to wear with tights, which would not add a lot of weight. These are actually slightly wider than my calf, so there's room for a sock or something. But mostly, if you wanted room for a sock, forget it. It doesn't exist.CorinneDo they zip up the side?VirginiaThese are pull on. They're just wide enough that I can pull them on. But Lucky makes a wide and an extra wide calf. So go extra wide. The wide calf was like 17 inches. And the thing is, you can't get your exact circumference. If my calf is 17 inches, a 17 inch boot is not going to fit. There's definitely no room for a socks. You need a little give. I knew it would be bad, but I didn't realize it would be this stupidly bad. Knee high boots are really marketed, I would say, to people size 12 and below.CorinneI've heard of people taking boots to the cobbler and having them put in a little elastic insert.VirginiaLike a little gusset type thing.Corinne But also, do we want to do that work? Who has the time?VirginiaWhy is this my new part time job? I have bought boots from Adelante, which is a pricey boot company, but they do custom, so you send them your measurements.CorinneI heard that they are maybe going out of business, but...VirginiaWhen I checked for the particular this boot shopping season, they had an eight week ship time, and I did not have eight weeks to wait on this boot purchase. I needed it sooner, so that wasn't going to work for me. They also only have one tall boot style, which I already own. So I was like, well, that’s not quite what I'm looking for. I was looking something different.CorinneYeah, this is getting into my custom clothing rant. VirginiaYes, yes, please give us that rant. CorinneI've seen a lot of people suggesting brands that make up to like, XYZ size and then custom beyond that. And most of these are brands I haven't tried. So I can't speak universally. And there are some brands that I really like that do this, and so presumably they do a good job. However, I did recently order something custom, and this was from just a very small, one person type of situation. I sent them my measurements, and they made something according to the measurements. And it just didn't fit, right. I got it, and I was like, "I hate this." And I just feel like the suggestion of just wanting fat people to always order custom stuff is... Look, I'm glad the option exists. But it's not always an option. Sometimes you don't have the time. And why should I be ordering custom stuff that then if it doesn't fit I'm in this awkward situation where something has been made, supposedly to my measurements, but I can't use it? VirginiaIs that even returnable? CorinneYeah, probably not. VirginiaBecause if they made it just for you, they can't resell it, right? CorinneIf they're offering custom sizes. It's not going to be fit-tested. They're creating a new pattern, and they don't really know how it's going to work on your body until you put it on.VirginiaSo they'd need you to come in and have it fit to your actual body, not based on a set of numbers, right? CorinneAnd then you're just basically a guinea pig. It iss a good option to have sometimes. It's just not realistic in so many situations. And yeah, the wait time. It's like, you want me to order custom boots that I'm not going to get for two months, at which time winter will be over.VirginiaThis is reminding me, when we were doing Jeans Science, there was a brand, which I'm not going to name because they were very unhappy with me when I talked about this on Instagram. But there was a brand that you sent your measurements to—and their jeans were just nowhere close to fitting my body. Like, I literally wore them for five minutes, and they sagged so much I stepped right out of the pants. They just fell off my body. And she was like, "I don't understand. You sent us your measurements. They should fit."Corinne Like it's your fault somehow. VirginiaI double-checked my measurements. I'm sure I measured myself right, and they don't fit. And I think it's exactly what you're saying. People are not flat. We're not two dimensional. Our bodies change shape when we sit and stand. Just cutting clothes based off a few numbers is not going to work. CorinneRight. Just because you can make a shirt that fits 30 inches pit to pit doesn't mean it will be the right length when I raise up my arm. We're moving around in the world.VirginiaWe're living in our bodies. And the pants need to both sit and stand, drive and walk. We really we need clothes that can do multiple things. I know people who wear petites feel this, too. People are always like, "just get it hemmed!" And that's so much extra labor to take something into the tailor, wait the two or three weeks while they get it hemmed, go back and get it. And then, does it work? Plus not everything can just be hemmed.CorinneSometimes I just don't have the capacity to message someone, "Could you possibly make this for me in a bigger size?" It's just a lot of extra effort, and I'm really annoyed at the suggestion that that is what I should be doing to be shopping in the right way.VirginiaAnd for any straight-sized person listening: Imagine if you wanted to buy something from The Gap, who I'm eternally mad at for not making plus sizes. And they didn't have your size, but they promise they'll make it for you. And so instead of being able to just walk into The Gap and buy a shirt, you have to email them, and wait for a response, and send your measurements, and get out a tape measure, and measure yourself, and make sure it's accurate. And send out that information, and then wait for the thing to arrive, and then it still doesn't. Like, I mean. Straight size people would never!CorinneI can get behind a sort of luxury Made-to-Order thing once in a while, but sometimes you just need a sweater.VirginiaYou just need the thing to fit. Custom cannot be the solution to fashions, lack of size inclusivity. That cannot be the answer. People would not be able to afford clothes and it just isn't sustainable or scale-able.CorinneI think the last thing we were going to talk about was our secret shame spots. VirginiaOh yes, this is a fun one to end on. It started because, in preparation for this episode, I was trying to find something on my desktop of my computer, and I said to Corinne, "I know I look like a person who has my shit together, but if you were to see the desktop of my computer or the inside of my car, you would know my truth."CorinneAnd and I was like, "Oh yeah, my desktop is also like that." I would say my car is not.But you know what one that is crazy for me, is my email inbox. Do you know how many unread messages I have? And I went through this, maybe, like six months ago. I went through, archived everything, started from scratch. I have 16,000 unread messages.VirginiaAnd this is your main email? This is your Gmail?CorinneThis is why people have multiple emails. But at this point it's like, how do I even go back? Like, I can't start fresh.VirginiaWell, I don't know. Because I'm now paying $5 a month for storage for my Yahoo address because it has so many emails in there. But I don't want to have to go in and delete because I'd have to delete thousands of emails. And I only use that email for signing up for stuff. I could just delete the whole thing, but I couldn't figure out how to do that because, of course, Yahoo is far more interested in me paying $5 a month for storage. And so I was like, fine, I'll do this. BBut my Gmail, I keep pretty on top of, because that's my has to be functional email. That said, I also do think I've actually been trying to increase my tolerance for a little more inbox chaos there. Because I think sometimes I can get very perfectionist about the end of the week, trying to clear out to Inbox Zero. I've been a longtime Inbox Zero person, and it's good for me to be like, "Nothing falls apart if I don't answer every email in here," or at least go through and process every email. I think that's how I feel about the desktop and the car too. It's good to have identified areas in your life where you can just be like, "Yeah, that's not where I have it together."Corinne I mean, it's not possible to have everything together all the time. VirginiaAnd I'm not even interested in trying. There are other parts of my life where I care. My house is pretty tidy because I am pretty compulsive about tidying my house. Daily bed maker here. I love a made bed. CorinneWell, can't say the same for myself. But, aspirational.VirginiaI want to hear what other people's secret shame spots are. They don't even have to be shames! Just your places where you're like, "I don't try here." What are your don't try areas? I think that's fun to think about. Especially as we launch into a busy time where we all need areas we don't try too hard in. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterVirginiaOkay, I'm gonna do my new red Adidas, which Corinne influenced me to buy. By which I mean she said, "I found these Adidas, and they are very Virginia-coded, and you should buy them." And I added to cart before she finished that sentence. They are a slight platform. They are bright red with purple stripes and a kind of neon red trim detail. They are super cute and I love them! And you were correct to tell me to purchase them.CorinneHow's the fit?VirginiaThey are so comfy. And I would say, run a smidge big. I go back and forth between a size 7-7.5 And I don't ever want sneakers to feel too tight, because you want to be able to wear socks with them. So I got the 7.5s, and they're roomy—like maybe I could have done the 7. There's definitely room for a sock. Unlike tall boots. I will say — I am still working up my nerve to style them, which is sort of interesting. I mean, I'm wearing them, but a couple things I've put them on with, and then I've been like, "Do I have clown feet?" They're very red. And I love red shoes. I'm surprised at my reaction. They're so cute. I'm wearing them, don't worry.CorinneI feel like they’d be great with jeans.VirginiaYes, here's what is tricky. With a wide leg jean, the jean covers so much of the shoe, you lose some of the cuteness, and then you just see the brown rubber of the platform sole, and that's less cute to me. So if I had a note for Adidas, it might be that the platform sole doesn't need to be brown. It could have also been red, and then I think I'd like them even more. I think it's just that thing where you're like, you have a new thing and it feels like such a statement. See all previous conversations. Virginia, just wear the shoes. CorinneThat's funny. VirginiaThey're pretty adorable. But yeah, what are you thinking? Are you making an Adidas purchase? This is not sponsored by Adidas, by the way.CorinneI have just regular Adidas Sambas that I actually love, and wear a lot, and are kind of like maybe at the approaching the end of their lifetime. So I want to get another pair. I think that I might be sized out of the cute platform ones, because I typically need an 11.5. But there is a men's version that's not quite the same, but very similar, and obviously doesn't come in as fun colors, but I might try those. There are some off-white and navy ones that I thought looked good.VirginiaI mean, I will say the platform is the least interesting thing about them to me. I think the colors are really fun. So if they could just do better colors! CorinneSometimes they have good colors. I feel like you just have to check back. Okay, my Butter is a food product, which I discovered on my road trip. Where was I? I don't know. I was somewhere, and I saw these little delicious-looking candy bars, and I bought one. And now I'm obsessed, and want to order boxes and boxes of them to my house. The brand is Mayana Chocolate. I think the one I liked was, I think it was "coconutty bar," or it was something with coconut in it. But they're really chubby. They're chunky, so they're very satisfying to eat. VirginiaThat sounds yummy.Corinne And now I am wishing I had one with me. So if you see them in a store near you, buy one or stock up. And send me some.VirginiaWell, this was fun. I hope everyone's driving safely and or cooking efficiently. And that you have lovely holiday meals, and nobody says weird things about bodies to you. And we'll see you back here next week! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with Debra Benfield, RDN.Deb is a registered dietitian/nutritionist with 40 years of experience helping people heal their relationship with food, movement and their bodies. Her work sits at the intersection of anti-ageism, body liberation and trauma-informed care, offering a radically compassionate alternative to diet and wellness culture—especially for those in midlife and beyond. After turning 60, Deb began questioning the dominant narratives around aging, vitality and beauty, and quickly realized the majority of resources still centered weight loss and youthful appearance as the ultimate goals. In response, she created what she couldn't find: A framework for nourishing the body that honors body respect, prioritizes liberation and embraces the full spectrum of aging. Deb is the author of the beautiful new book Unapologetic Aging: How to Mend and Nourish Your Relationship with Your Body.  Deb came on the podcast back in 2023 and we had what was really the first, or certainly one of the first, conversations we've had on Burnt Toast about the intersection of ageism and anti-fat bias. That discussion helped lay the foundation for how we're continuing to talk about those issues. Deb is someone I always turn to for resources and wisdom as we're navigating those conversations here. I am so thrilled to have Deb back on the podcast today, to talk about her new book, how diet culture has hijacked the menopause discourse, and why peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are actually giving you all the protein you need.  Unapologetic Aging comes out on December 16, so now is the perfect time to pre-order it as a holiday gift for yourself, your mom, or anyone you know in midlife and beyond! And don't forget that if you've bought Fat Talk from Split Rock Books, you can take 10% off your purchase of Unapologetic Aging there too — just use the code FATTALK at checkout.And if you value this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work!Join Burnt Toast! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 220 TranscriptVirginiaWe are here to talk about your new book, Unapologetic Aging, which comes out on December 16. I loved the book. I think it's such a valuable contribution to this whole conversation. It's really a guide to living well in midlife and beyond without, as you put it, "the whole diet and wellness mess." It's also a very powerful reckoning with how our ageism and fatphobia prevent us from doing the things we really want to do at this time. DebI'm trying to create some awareness of our internalized ageism, because I think it goes unnoticed. If anybody is listening to your podcast, my hope is that they've already done quite a bit of work looking at their anti-fat bias. So then it's about looking at where those two meet, as you notice changes in your body. So I created a book that helps you with your awareness and with how you could look at making choices to support yourself and mending some of the body stories you carry about your aging and about changes. That includes being in a larger body, and some pieces around body image and intimacy. Body liberation as you age is such an important legacy for the generations to come. VirginiaI want to start with something I underlined right in the introduction. You wrote that we so often hear “You haven't aged a bit!” And this is considered a grand compliment, right? But you're immediately questioning why. Unpack that for us.DebAgain, hoping that your audience is already aware of how “you look great,” if you lost weight is a problematic thing for someone to hear. It's very similar. It's a very parallel compliment in that you just calcify this belief that looking older is bad and looking younger is always better. That very definite binary that we impose upon ourselves. It is very much like looking thinner is always a victory, and looking larger must mean you're failing in life. VirginiaIt's so interesting when you step back from it. Why do we not want to look like we've been living? Why would I want to look like a younger, less accomplished, less mature person? Not to criticize my younger self—but why wouldn't we want to own the aging that we've done, and the living that we've done? DebWe've just internalized all of this fear. And I get it. I understand that to pass as younger gives you more social collateral, and theoretically you lose relevance in our very ageist culture. So I get it. It's disempowering to say the very least. And it's a perpetual fight. I'm not a fan of fighting my body overall. And I think that's what's at the center of my book: What happens when you stop fighting, and instead befriend, and care for, and lean into the connection and relationship you can have with your body? How beautiful it is, especially at this time in life. There's so much liberation there that I'm very attracted to that for myself and anybody that wants to talk to me about it.Join Burnt Toast! VirginiaI have a kind of funny story to confess. As I was reading your book, a moment came up where I had to recognize, oh, this is my own internalized ageism showing up. The backstory is my boyfriend, Jack is nine years younger than me. So we have an age difference. And he was talking about a friend, and he referred to her as "an older woman." And I realized the person he was talking about was the same age as me, and I immediately was like, "What do you mean older woman? Why are we using the phrase older woman?" And he just looks at me and he's like, "Babe, it's a good thing. That's a neutral description. It's a neutral term." And I was like, oh, I need to reclaim "older" or "old," just like I've reclaimed fat. So now our joke is, if you say older women, you say, "parentheses complimentary," to clarify that it's meant as a good thing. DebWe're just socialized to think “older” is negative.VirginiaObviously you shouldn't even need that parentheses!DebWell, we all do. I do it too. We all do. It was just so deeply, deeply ingrained, just like all the stuff around anti-fat bias.VirginiaI remember last time we talked about language when you were on the podcast. And we were talking about how we like “elder,” but there are other terms that do feel more negatively imbued. So it's not necessarily that you have to reclaim every term around aging, but it is worth looking at why is this term hitting you this way?DebAnd we may be different in the way things land with us, too. I mean, clearly with you and Jack. VirginiaYeah, totally. I was like, Okay, called out for my own ageism. So something you write about quite a few places in the book is this phenomenon of what you call “super agers," which we see constantly on social media. They're always showing up on Good Morning America. Super agers are folks who are over 70 or 80 and still windsurfing or doing yoga or  rock climbing. It's pretty much always some incredible physical feat that someone's doing in their later years. And we have such a tendency to celebrate that, but you're very clear that that's not necessarily a straightforward celebration of aging.DebWhen I was thinking about this, I was also watching the New York City Marathon. And all the celebrations tended to be focused on people with disabilities, older ages. It was very interesting to me. And larger bodies! All of them are grouped together as celebrations because they pushed through some sort of social limitation to accomplish this thing. And again, as always, there is some truth in that. I do have respect for people that work hard to accomplish things. And aging is fascinating in that we become more unique and heterogeneous the older we become. The longer we live, the more experiences we have, the more  possible disease diagnosis and treatments, medications. I mean, so many things happen with each passing year. We're very unique. There are just as many ways to age as there are to live your life. I just want to put forward the fact that you don't have to be in a super human category to be aging well or successfully. It's not unlike when you say “Good Fatty." You're a “Good Fatty," if you work out right, and if you work really hard on your body and being healthy. All the healthism that starts to rise up. So it's very similar with pushing yourself despite your age.VirginiaThere are two layers to it. There's this thing where it's actually quite patronizing to the person doing the activity. Like, oh, good for you. You're doing this despite all the odds. Which you wouldn't say to a thin, able-bodied 25-year-old running a marathon. Then it's, wow, you've worked hard and have skills and experience. And then also it's contributing to this artificially high standard of what we need to aspire to. So now it's not enough to just try to  preserve my mobility as I get older. I also need to be able to do a headstand.DebThe hard part is that, yeah, I do want to celebrate these accomplishments. Of course. I think that's amazing. I saw something about this woman who beat the world record and how long she could hold a plank. And she was about 10 years younger than me, so I immediately got on the floor, of course, to see what I could do. And there are so many little things on social media about tests of your capacity as you age. If you can get up from the floor in a certain way. If you can put on your socks and shoes without sitting down. And what happens, of course, is we judge ourselves, we compare ourselves. And I don't know how helpful that is. I mean, if it motivates you to see if you can shift and change some of your habits, to see if maybe you could work on balance, maybe that's uesful. It's very important to have healthy feet, for example, but to what end? That's what happens for a lot of people. It's like, hell no, I can't do that. I can't do this so why try? A lot of the research on ageism shows that this narrative about decline and fear mongering does not do us any favors when we believe those negative story lines. Fear doesn't motivate us. It makes us feel like we're doomed. And there's actual data showing that we live longer with a much more positive mindset around what it's like to be in an older body. VirginiaIt's making me think of how much we narrow the definition of health when we do this. When we say, Can you get up off the floor without using your hands? That is a sign of how healthy you are. Well, I can't do that every day. That's not something that's available to my body every day now. On the other hand, I recently increased how much weight I'm lifting when I strength train. I can lift a much heavier weight than I could when I was younger and could get up off the floor more easily. And so it's kind of a wash to me, like, which is healthier? And that's setting aside the aging discourse around strength training —we'll get there. I just mean, there are so many different facets of health. And those two examples are just talking about physicality. That's before we get to mental health, or all of the other ways we can measure health. And I just think it's so interesting that we constantly narrow how we define health and how we're grading it.DebWe're so influenced by these “longevity bros.” We're just so, so inundated by those types of messages, especially on social media and podcasts, that it totally narrows our definition of beauty, our definition of  what it is to be well and to live well. One of the things that we need to do at midlife—and I think midlife invites this when you're staying in touch with yourself— is to embrace a reflective period. It's like, okay, I clearly have less time in front of me. What are my values? How do I want to sail the ship? That is something that happens in midlife, and I think it's very important to clarify how you want to spend your time and energy now. And for some people, it is getting up off the floor without using their hands. For a lot of people, not so much. And that's okay.Support our workVirginiaThey are morally neutral activities.Another phrase I underlined in the book, because as soon as you wrote it, I said, Oh God, I'm hearing that everywhere, is people saying, "Well what I've always done isn't working anymore." They're usually referring to how they're eating or how they're moving their body. Like, I always used to do X, Y and Z, and now it's not working anymore. You have such a smart reframe for this. Because was it ever working? DebYes, what do you mean by "working?" Working to fit your body into a certain size and shape, or maybe functionality? Why are we holding onto that? I don't think that serves us very well, because our bodies are supposed to change. I talk a lot about this metaphor of the monkey bars, that in order to move down the monkey bars, you have to let go of one to move to actually move forward. If you cling and grasp, you will stay, and I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in continuing to move forward, whatever that looks like. To evolve and change and become is the beauty of midlife and beyond. That's the opportunity, that's the emergence that is available to us. So this focus on holding on to what's been working, as in, keeping ourselves in the same size dress, or whatever the story is, that's another one of those, like, I can still wear the dress I wore when I went to prom in high school.VirginiaThat's a big achievement. Staying your high school size forever.DebI don't think it's serving us.VirginiaIt's really not. It's really a way of staying stuck, as opposed to letting yourself change. When we fight change, we make it so much harder on ourselves.DebBut the social conversation is maintained. Maintaining that freeze frame--it doesn't make any sense to me. It just doesn't make sense. But I see it and hear it, and people spend a lot of money on it.VirginiaDo you think that wanting to freeze frame is also behind so much of the menopause discourse right now? DebAbsolutely. What I hear in the menopause space is fear mongering about change. And that's getting more and more extreme, in my mind. We are talking to each other right after you've probably seen the very viral conversation about how in menopause, your brain eats itself. Thankfully, there has a lot of pushback on that by people I respect, because there's absolutely no data. It was a rodent study, and the rodents died soon after menopause. So clearly their menopause is not the same as human menopause. But the fear mongering gets people. It just hooks you and makes you feel like you should do whatever this is being sold. But the research does show that our brains change in very interesting ways. As we get older, our brains have more capacity for being flexible and adapting. So that's a beautiful thing. I like celebrating the fact that we find ways to continue to live our lives as fully as we would like to, and age the way we want to age, without all this pressure and fear. Fear, in and of itself, is harmful for your brain, by the way. VirginiaWith the menopause discourse being so loud right now, especially on social media, it feels like all of diet culture is boiling down to two things that we are supposed to do as much as possible: Eat all the protein all the time, and strength train constantly in our weighted vests. The book, I want to be clear, is so much more than that. You have so many great tools, journaling prompts, strategies to help people do this really hard work of figuring out how they want to relate to their bodies and take care of themselves in this life stage. But I do want to get you to give us your hot takes and reframes on protein and strength training, because those are the two that we get the most questions about by far.DebAs most things in this arena, there is some truth. There's a kernel of truth. It's just gone too far. It's gotten too extreme. My preference is to really honor the unique person and their needs, and I also prioritize mental health. If you are a person who has had any history of disordered eating, chronic dieting, obsessive thoughts, anxiety, then the fear mongering is going to be very harmful for you. And triggering. There is research that shows there's an increase in relapse and development of new eating disorders [at this age]. Obsessing over numbers like protein grams is harmful. I don't do it. I don't recommend it for anybody. I think understanding where protein is in our food is smart. You probably already know that. And making choices where you include some protein most of the time is helpful. You don't have to do it every single time you eat. But that is kind of how things naturally happen anyway, without a lot of effort. Unless you're a person who doesn't like protein-containing foods at all—and that can be true—then it may require more effort on your part. My favorite example is peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I just love peanut butter and jelly sandwiches or peanut butter in anything. I feel like my body goes “thank you” every single time I give myself that. It works. And I've heard that from many clients, too. Pleasure centers light up. You get carbohydrates, fat and protein. It's such a great combo. It's a beautiful food choice, and it lasts forever. You don't have to keep it in the fridge. Another example is a charcuterie board, where you have some cheese, you have some ham if you eat meat. There tends to be a little bit of protein along with the carbohydrate and fat, naturally. So you don't really have to get down in the numbers. I encourage you to pay attention and make choices that include protein. But I think it's completely unnecessary to count the grams of protein.VirginiaI love that the takeaway is eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Yes, done, sold. DebAnybody listening to this and has ever worked with me is probably laughing really hard right now, like, there she goes again. Peanut butter and jelly is my solution to all the things. VirginiaIt's one of the most perfect foods! I had a phase where one of my kids basically lived on Uncrustables, and I was like, no notes. It made packing lunches so easy. We could always have them with us. It was delightful. Join Burnt Toast! DebOkay, strength training.VirginiaLet's do it. DebHere's the thing that I want people to hear me say: No matter what you do, you lose muscle mass. It's not like doing all the things it's going to stop that, because it doesn't. So that's a fact. That's an opportunity for acceptance that your body softens. There's something about that that I find very inviting. I love that my body is softening. I really, truly do. I'm attracted to the softness that's available to me that didn't used to be. I'm naturally kind of like-I don't know if anybody ever watched Popeye? Popeye's girlfriend's name was Olive Oyl, and that was my nickname when I was a kid, because I was just long and lean. So softening is exciting for me. I've never really had this softness, so I think it's sweet. And there's a softening that I'm attracted to around taking the edges off of all of our anxiety and our preoccupation with being perfect. I have a lot of positive associations with softening. There are also some health protective aspects of having more storage space. That's what body fat is. You will be safer when the next virus comes around. We're in that time of the year where we're all going to get this and that virus. So you have more storage and your bones are a little bit more protected. Weighted vests... well that's a huge conversation. VirginiaAs a fat person, I'm already wearing my weighted vest at all times.DebIt's just anti-fat bias that you would need to be as lean as possible and then strap on some extra weight. I'm sorry. It makes me laugh every time I think about it. I'm sorry if people see me laugh when I see them without walking and they are wearing their weighted vests. I'm just entertained. VirginiaAlso, caveat listeners: If any of you are like, no, I just love my weighted vest, we're not taking it away from you!DebI'm not judging you if you're doing it. I totally get that you're just trying to do the right thing for yourself all the time. We all are. It's just, I'm not falling for that one. Weighted vests are on my “I'm not falling for it” list. But yes, we do need to do things that include bearing your body's weight and extra, if that's possible, and of course, the data supporting heavier weight is there—if that's interesting to you, if that's accessible to you. So many women contact me and say, I just feel like I'm not doing it right, because I just can't make myself do heavy lifting. And that's okay, too. Making yourself spend time doing something you hate doesn't feel in my mind like the thing you want to do with this precious part of your life. Because it's more and more precious. I'm in that category. Maybe I'll get to a place that I want to. I'm sure it feels good to feel yourself be powerful and strong. Yes, I get that. I'm a yogi. I love doing yoga poses where I hold my body weight. And I'm also a single mom, so I do a lot of lifting naturally in life. I do all the things around the house.VirginiaI think it's so interesting, because I do enjoy strength training, and I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't genuinely enjoy it. Because for me, the form of exercise that I detest and get caught in this "I need to make myself do it" cycle is cardio. And if they were pushing cardio as hard as they push strength training, I would be a mess. So that's just to underscore—any way you're moving your body that makes sense for you is good. And if you can find joy in it, even better. DebAbsolutely. And feel playful!If you can find some playfulness, and if you can find some social connection, you're also doing things to help your brain and your aging process be with other people. Finding community and finding some playfulness is very, very healthy. VirginiaI love that. DebSo yes, of course I want people to keep moving. But not in this prescribed, "can you hold a plank for three minutes" way. And not in ways that disconnect you. That's probably the biggest thing for me is when you start counting grams, you get disconnected from your body. You get all in your head. When you start judging your body to make sure you're doing it right, you're disconnecting from your body again. Things that keep you connected and in your body are what I'm all about encouraging.VirginiaI love that.Are there any habits or lifestyle practices, or anything that you're like, "well, if people could add on something...?" And I realize I sound like I'm undermining our whole conversation here, because I'm like, "tell us one habit we need to have!" and that's not what you're about. But I'm just curious what you think people benefit from doing more of in midlife? DebMy number one go-to is adequacy. I am very afraid that people are starting with a diet culture mindset which is so inadequate for supporting our bodies. And I notice that the symptoms of being undernourished are exactly the same symptoms that women experience in menopause. Brain fog, fatigue, anxiety, problems with sleep, loss of libido. It’s the exact same list. So I worry that this "blast your belly fat" conversation is contributing to our menopausal experience, peri and post. You are not going to age well if you are living with scarcity and under-nourishing your brain and body. So that's my number one concern, because I hear it so often, and because diet culture has so skewed our perception of what is adequate. I feel like it's a very common experience. Trying to feed yourself throughout the day, trying not to skip, because there's a lot of that going on, a lot of skipping. Because morally, we feel like we are being good and superior thanks to diet culture when we ignore a request for fuel from our body, that little hunger that pops up. And you're going to have more food noise, by the way. I don't know if you want to get into GLP-1s today, probably not.VirginiaI mean, when are we not getting into it? Feel free to throw it in. DebI would not be getting into it if it wasn't so commonly recommended. The new thing now is microdosing for the menopausal changes in your body. I mean, I'm not going to make a bold statement against GLP-1s, because I have many clients that are benefiting, that are in recovery with type 2 diabetes, that are benefiting and doing well. So I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about this facelift plus GLP-1 phenomenon. I believe in bodily autonomy, so I also don't want to diss anybody from making that choice, but discerning what you want from what the social construct is imposing on you requires some time. And that's the other thing that I want people to do in midlife, is to do some checking in with themselves, to get some clarity about what they really want versus what they think they should do. And how can you tell the difference?VirginiaWell I love all of that, and it feels, in so many ways, more doable than counting your protein grams and wearing your weighted vest. I hope people are receiving it that way. And your book is just such a great guide. It's like being in conversation with you. You're just so warm and wise and grounded and gently moving people through what can be heavy work, but there's a lot of joy to it as well.DebYeah, thank you. I tried to create little body breaks, chances for people to just go drink some tea and look at the sky, take a few breaths, because it can be very hard to look at the stories you carry about your body, and do you want to still carry that.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterDebI am in love with the Samin Nosrat book.VirginiaThe new one?DebYes, Good Things. Well, the old one too, but the new one.VirginiaAnything Samin does, really.DebAbsolutely. I mean, her work is such a beautiful antidote to diet culture. I send people to her Netflix series, Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat, because it's pure food joy, without a single tiny second of nutrition anxiety. It's so rare to find. It's so rare. But she has this--what does she call it? The roasted vegetable salad matrix? I've  dog-eared that page. I just keep it on my counter, because there are so many cool ideas about mixing and matching, and that's kind of how I cook anyway. It's like, what do I have? What's on sale? Can I do some extra roasting on the weekend when I have time? And what can I throw together as I go through the week? Little bit of crunchy, a little bit of bright acid, little bit of sweet. You can make sure you throw your protein in there, too.VirginiaI haven't gotten all the way through the cookbook yet, but I love it, and I love the way she writes about food, and about giving herself permission to seek pleasure. There's a really lovely essay in there about that.DebAnd not perfection! I mean, she rages against that perfection piece, which I think is so helpful. And try to invite people to join each other. Because the other piece about aging is you want to stay in community as much as you can.VirginiaWell, that leads us perfectly into my Butter, which is last night I had the absolute joy of going into Brooklyn for Kate Baer's book launch event with Joanna Goddard at Books Are Magic. Kate Baer is a phenomenal feminist poet. I probably don't need to introduce her work to anybody. Her new book is called, How About Now? There are so many fantastic poems in it. And just the experience of sitting in—it was actually in a church because Kate draws such a big crowd, they have to have it off-site from the bookstore. So we were in a Unitarian Church, and there were probably at least 300 women, most of us in midlife or beyond, just sitting together to celebrate poems about our lives that make us feel seen. I have goosebumps just thinking about it again the next day. It was really such a gift to be in community with so many women. DebThat sounds amazing. VirginiaKate is such a sweetheart, and I’ve been rooting for her a long time. Yes, now let's talk more about your work. People need to preorder Unapologetic Aging: How to Mend and Nourish Your Relationship with Your Body. It's out December 16. That makes it a fantastic holiday gift for any midlife person and beyond midlife person in your life. What else? How can we find you and support your work? What else can we do? DebWell I have a Substack called Unapologetic Aging and you can find me by my name. I am most commonly found on social media on Instagram, but you can find me anywhere, just by my name, Deb Benfield.VirginiaThank you so much for being here. Deb, DebI just want to say one more thing about purchasing the book. The last time we were together, we talked a lot about grandmothers and mothers and the generations, and I think my book is the perfect gift for your mother, If you're trying to have this conversation. VirginiaI agree with that. All the Burnt Toasties who write to me and say, "What do I do about the thing my mom says?" This is what you do.DebAnd have a conversation. VirginiaAbsolutely. Thank you so much for being here. DebThis was really wonderful. Thanks for having me. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Support Anti-Diet Journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it's time for your November Extra Butter episode.Today we're talking about our problematic faves! These are shows, musicians, influencers and other pockets of culture that we want to enjoy without thinking much about them, even if there's discourse. We'll get into: Our favorite Bad Skinny Girl TV shows. The straight man who has Corinne's heart. Is Virginia a pick-me girl now? And so many more!!! To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber. If you haven't joined us yet — we've extended your Burnt Toast gift access deadline! Check your email for "claim your free month by 11/20!" And do it TODAY! Join Extra Butter🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 219 TranscriptCorinneToday, we're going to do a fun little episode where we talk about problematic faves...although it's a little more nuanced than that. This is kind of inspired by a TikTok by Caro Claire Burke. She also has a Substack, and a podcast which we love. Caro says: The inherent flaw of a platform like TikTok, for a cultural critic like me, but also just for anyone, is that you look on someone's feed and you only see the shit they care about. And you get the impression that this person is constantly, chronically online, and that they care about everything. And that makes me feel tired with other people, and it makes me feel really tired with myself. So I thought I would cleanse my feet a little bit by sharing five things I couldn't be bothered to care about, five things where I constantly go, it's not that deep—even though it probably is that deep—as a means of just creating a small sanctuary for myself in a world that is rapidly falling to shit. And her list includes the Skims Merkin, discourse about whether protesting is cringe, her own marriage, and Hailey Bieber.VirginiaInteresting choice for her to put her own marriage on the list. I honestly respect it. CorinneIt's like, if it's working, don't look at it too hard, you know?VirginiaI love this whole concept. I think Caro does great work. But it was a really hard assignment for me! Because we are so chronically online and we care and we dissect everything. I think it's a good exercise though. Not because we don't want to hold problematic people accountable, but because we do get to be people, and sometimes just exist and just let something exist. Okay, so you're like, cringe-ing, a little every time I say problematic fave. Is that just because it's a very overused term, or because you think that's not quite what we're doing?CorinneGood question. I feel like the things on my list aren't necessarily problematic? Or they're not problematic yet, but I don't want to look too deeply into this, you know? I want to let it be something I enjoy, and not have to wrestle with it. I think there's also a way in which we try so hard to do things right with consumerism, like, boycott the right brands and shop for things in the correct way, or hold people accountable. And yes, we should do that. We should try to make the world a better place. And, it's exhausting, and we can't realistically do everything right all the time.VirginiaI think that's really fair. Maybe the other reason these aren't quite problematic faves is we are not naming people or institutions...Oh wait, I might be? But we're trying not to name people or institutions who have a known track record of already being wildly offensive in some way. But we see the potential for them to go in that direction. Now that I said that, there are a couple on my list that are already maybe problematic. So we'll get there. But it's different from being like, "this person is a well established problem, and I just find them delightful anyway." It's more like, oh, this could be a thing, but let's not overthink it right now.  I feel like this is a little like brain break we all need.CorinneOkay, the first one that came to mind for me was TV related. I feel like there's a certain genre of show that I like to watch that is very fluffy, very detached from reality, or at least my reality, and I just like to watch it. So I just can't really get that much into the discourse. And I'm talking about shows like Emily in Paris, And Just Like That, the Sex in the City reboot. I just want to zone out and watch them.VirginiaI mean, we did do a Live all about how bad the final season of And Just Like That, was. CorinneIt's true. VirginiaSo we did contribute to the discourse. And I totally agree with you. We were like, well we're watching it anyway!CorinneAnd now that it has been canceled, I do feel a real loss.VirginiaTurns out I do want to see women in their 50s wearing absolutely absurd outfits and spending far too much money on cocktails. Where else are we going to find that in our lives? My first one is also TV-related and very adjacent. I put down Nobody Wants This, the Kristen Bell, Adam Brody romcom, but this is a whole genre, I think. And Just Like That, Emily in Paris, Nobody Wants This. There are so many! I call them Bad Skinny Girl TV.CorinneOh, wow. I mean, Emily in Paris is absolutely Bad Skinny Girl TV.VirginiaThe thing I have to be mindful of with these shows is, if I watch too many, too constantly, it can trigger some body stuff. That's my one legit flag on these shows. If you look at too many really skinny, pretty Hollywood actresses, sometimes it starts to get into your brain a little. So, you know, be mindful about that. But otherwise, it's like Nobody Wants This...the second season was so dumb. It was so dumb, it was just a retread. CorinneI didn't even know there was a second season. VirginiaMy 12 year old and I just binged it. Kristen Bell plays a just sort of unlikable main character. But because it's Kristen Bell, you're along for the ride regardless. She's being immature and making strange choices and wearing so many odd shirts. I don't really understand who chose the shirts for that show. They always have weird holes in them, or, like, barely cover her torso in some complicated way? And yet I was like, yeah, seems greatCorinneNow that we're saying this. I'm also thinking abotu how I love to watch all the detective, cop, FBI, CIA, MI5 shows. Also extremely problematic. Propaganda for evil forces.VirginiaACAB, except for TV cops? CorinneI know in my heart these are forces for evil. And, like, I love to watch them on TV. VirginiaWe will solve this murder.CorinneI'm rooting for the detective.VirginiaThese shows I'm talking about also often do often have some thinly veiled, or not-so-veiled fatphobia. And I am just, for the most part, able to just sail on through it. I will also put something like Gilmore Girls in this category. There is a valuable cultural discourse around Gilmore Girls. There's a lot about it that doesn't age well. And it will still be a comfort watch for me forever. All right, what's next for you?CorinneAll right. Well, this came up when we were discussing doing this episode. I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna have to really think about what mine are..." And you were like, "Yours is The Gap." And to be clear: The Gap does not make my size. I cannot wear clothes from The Gap. And yet, I'm constantly looking at their website. I like their clothes, and I feel like I've recommended them to you, Virginia, because I'm like, "well if you can wear them, you might as well." Like, I'm not interested in being mad at The Gap for not making my size.VirginiaYou’re like "They get a pass, their advertising is so charming."CorinneI think with The Gap specifically, I have some deep-seated childhood stuff, because The Gap factory outlet was the closest real clothing store to where I grew up. It was just where I just wanted to go. VirginiaIt was the beacon of fashion and culture in 1990s Maine.CorinneBut I do feel like I maybe have this more broadly with clothes where I'm just kind of like, "if they make something and it fits you, you should wear it."VirginiaBecause the options are so slim. And I think I'm always like, "No, I have a responsibility as someone who can wear this brand, because I should be trying to put my money towards the brands that are more size inclusive."And I think that's true, and I'm wearing a pair of Gap jeans while we record this conversation. But I hear you, you're like, "I have nostalgia for this brand. The clothes are cute." Why are you going to waste energy being mad at The Gap for not being better. There are just other hills to die on? But also, Gap, make plus size clothes! Old Navy is doing it. CorinneIt's so dumb. It's truly just boggling.VirginiaYou're the same company. If they can do it, you can do it. I just really believe you can. So I am mad at The Gap, but Corinne is giving them a pass.CorinneWhat else do you have?VirginiaOkay, my next ones are the home design influencers Chris and Julia Marcum. They are @chrislovesjulia on Instagram. To be clear, I've written a think piece about Julia Marcum, so I have applied the discourse to her. And I continue to follow them. And it's weird, because their aesthetic is not my aesthetic. I don't know how familiar you are with their content?CorinneI'm not familiar. I'm only familiar with them because I've heard you mentioned them so many times.VirginiaOkay so quick backstory: The Marcums are Mormon home design influencers. They live in North Carolina now, where they moved for her health from Idaho, which has a complicated backstory. And they have three daughters and a really pretty Bernese mountain dog. Their current home is enormous. The previous home was enormous. They live in these enormous homes, which she's decorating as if they were historic mansions? Her taste is so intense. Just click around at some of the visuals and you'll see what I mean. And it is a hyper level of overconsumption. I experience the ick regularly while looking at her content. I'm like, oh she's already put in a 30 foot long marble kitchen island, what more can she add? And then she does. They just bought a lake house they're going to start renovating that is bigger than most people's homes they live in. It's this just excessive display of wealth and consumerism. And I'm fascinated by it, and have purchased more than one item she has recommended.CorinneBecause it's not a hate follow or hate watch?VirginiaWell, they are a problematic fave. I think they are actively problematic. I think they are representing the peak of influencer culture, where they're constantly pushing Amazon Prime stuff, they're constantly pushing Wayfair, they're constantly rolling out a new product line to sell you. They're very much pushing the idea that your house should be a level of perfect that none of us can actually sustain. That you should always be renovating every room. They renovated their entire living room, and then re-renovated the entire room. Every room is always getting done in this super intense manner. It's bad![Post-recording note: Actually, they painted and decorated their living room, to a degree that most of us would have said was "done." And then fully renovated the same space.]CorinneAnd you look at it and you're like, yeah, I am going to buy that.VirginiaI'm like, it's so cozy. It's not even my taste! I just, I don't know something about it is weirdly soothing.CorinneHow did you discover these people? VirginiaI don't know how I discovered her. I mean, I follow a lot of home design content. I like home design. It's a soothing hobby of mine. But I have realized it's a tricky hobby to have on the Internet, because influencing as a business model makes it always, more and more and more in this way that's tricky. You should see their backyard. They have this outdoor kitchen that could seat 12. It's wild. CorinneThe dream. VirginiaIt's not even! But it is weirdly addictive. CorinneOkay. My next one is Chapell Roan. VirginiaI was going to put her on my list, but I couldn't really think of anything problematic about her! CorinnePeople are constantly getting mad at her on TikTok, I can't even remember why. It's like, she complains, and then people get mad that she's complaining, and I just can't. I'm just like, "Leave her alone."VirginiaYeah, I'm not following that at all. That's not interesting to me.CorinneIt just happens periodically.VirginiaOh, because she did the whole thing about, like, "I'm not going to talk to you if you say hi to me in public?"CorinneThat was one. It's happened a few times. Occasionally she'll get mad about something, or get worked, up about something, and then will post kind of a ranty TikTok, and then people have a big backlash to that, and I just can't. VirginiaOh my god, she's a 26-year-old pop sensation. Just let her be, let her be herself.CorinneI feel the same about Sabrina Carpenter. I like her. Sorry. Everyone hated that album cover. I don't care. I just can't. I wrote a Substack post about it. I don't care. I think the album cover is fine. I like her music. I think she's really cute and funny. VirginiaThere was take after take on the Sabrina Carpenter album. Can we not? CorinneI just love her.VirginiaI mean, this is reminding me of that great chapter in Samantha Irby's most recent book, where she talks about liking something that people think is bad and that she's just like, "Well, I like it." No follow up. And the power of just being like, "Well, I like that bad thing."CorinneDefinitely how I felt about And Just Like That.VirginiaClearly not how I feel about Chris Loves Julia, but maybe it should be? Anyway, yeah, Sabrina Carpenter. Chappell Roan is constantly playing over here. I'm not interested in investigating further. All right, my next one is definitely inspired by this is one of the things that I've taken from the Julia Marcum aesthetic. But it is also its own standalone trend. She's just one of the influencers pushing it, which is porch pumpkins. Are you aware of the porch pumpkins craze? CorinneIs this just like putting a pumpkin on your porch? VirginiaNo, it's putting piles of pumpkins on your porch. CorinneOh, okay, I have seen people do that.VirginiaWait, there was a Wall Street Journal article. I'll find it.CorinneWhen I see people do this, I'm like, I'm tired. I don't have the energy to be stacking pumpkins on my porch.VirginiaAccording to the WSJ, "Families are paying north of $1,000 to create Insta perfect tableaus for porches and yards." CorinneOkay, so how much did you pay for your pumpkin stylist?VirginiaLet me tell you about me and my porch pumpkins. I've been craving this look for a few years, ever since Julia Marcum first posted it. And she bought fake pumpkins, which she just keeps on hand and brings out every year to make her pile of pumpkins. And I was like, well, that's actually a more like responsible way to do it, right? To buy and reuse your pumpkins every year? Except then I priced out her pumpkin collection, and it was like, $800 and I said to my then-husband, like, should I buy all these pumpkins? And he said, no. CorinneAnd that's why you got divorced.VirginiaExactly, yes. No — he was right. But every fall, I'm like, I kind of wish I had that. It looks pretty. I'm not going to spend that money, but it does look cool. So then this year the kids wanted to get pumpkins. And so Jack and I took them to a little local pumpkin patch, and I discovered the trick is to go the Saturday before Halloween. The pumpkins are on deep discount. And I now have 14 pumpkins on my front porch that I spent only $70 on.Corinne14 pumpkins is a lot. VirginiaIt is a lot! They just kept giving us more. I paid $70 for maybe, like, seven pumpkins. And I was still like, well, $10 a pumpkin. We'll feed them to the chickens. Jack's like, I can bake something with this cheese pumpkin. I was like, it's it's fine. And then they were like, here. Take more. Take more. I was like, well, now the pumpkins are basically paying me to be on my porch.CorinneSo funny. VirginiaI think it looks delightful and harvest-y, and I like that. It's a trend that works for both Halloween and Thanksgiving. So you can leave it up for a while. And then you could feed the pumpkins to your chickens, or bake with them, if that was the type of person you were, or throw them in your woods and let the deer eat them, which is what I would also do. CorinneWhen I was at my mom's house in Maine, we did get a pumpkin for her front steps, and it immediately got eaten by squirrels.VirginiaAnother reason to wait until the Saturday before Halloween. So you're not trying to make this trend last all fall. I think it's also like, at this time of year, I'm getting sad about the leaves falling. I'm getting sad about the coming cold, anything that makes me like anything better. It's a pile of pumpkins. They're pretty, that's all.CorinneThey are. The pumpkins in this photo are very beautiful. VirginiaYeah, no, that's the key. You don't just get orange pumpkins, you get the Cinderella pumpkins, the fancy gourds and whatnot.CorinneAnd also, how is this WSJ article/photo, leaving out the fact that there are 14 foot tall skeletons in the background?VirginiaYes, in that photo, they are also doing the very tall skeletons, which is a trend I'm not on because I don't know where to store it. Where does one store the 12-foot skeleton the rest of the year?CorinneI don't know. And those are also like $500, I think.VirginiaThey're not cheap. That's like $2,000 in Halloween decorations just on their porch. It's a commitment. And I didn't go that route, but I just enjoy it. That's all.CorinneDid you put them out and step back and rearrange them? VirginiaI sure did. CorinneOkay, my next one is Tom Colicchio from Top Chef. I love to watch Top Chef. I find Tom Colicchio delightful. Do you watch Top Chef? You don't. VirginiaI know nothing about him. He's a person who exists in the world, is what I know.CorinneHe's a chef. He is a host of Top Chef. He's a little like, tough love, you know? He's very critical. He'll really tell you what's working or not. But he also is a heart of gold, good guy. And I don't want to know if he's a bad person in real life. I find him very lovable. VirginiaYou don't want there to be a scandal.CorinneI'm queer, but I'm very here for Tom Colicchio. He's balding. He's always wearing weird hats and stuff. I just love him.VirginiaThat's adorable. Wait, I have to Google him so I have a face. CorinneHe's not like, a hot guy. At least I don't think so. VirginiaI need to know what man attracts Corinne. Ok, ok I get it.CorinneI would not necessarily say he's my type.VirginiaWell and he's 63, he's a little old for you. CorinneHe is, and I think he's happily married. I just find him lovable.VirginiaWell, I think that's great to just unequivocally love a straight, white man. How often can we say that? That's a good one. All right, between porch pumpkins and Mormon home design people and now what I'm about to say, I am just really outing myself as a bougie suburban mom. It is what it is. But my next one is the Starbucks drive through. I do love the Starbucks drive through. It is not environmentally friendly. It is not a company I feel good about giving dollars to. I do boycott them when people remind me about the boycott. But when I am doing my mom thing, running errands, getting kids to places, the Starbucks in our town is right near where we go for doctor's appointments, and sometimes you need a cake pop or an egg bite to get you through a medical thing. And that's right there with the coffee.CorinneWhen I saw this on the outline, I was like, am I going to admit that I also love the Starbucks drive-through. VirginiaPlease do! Solidarity. CorinneI am going to admit that, and I will say I did boycott them for a while because of the unionization stuff, and my solution to that now has been to go to the Starbucks in my town that is unionized. So I will say you can look up if there's a unionized Starbucks near you. Worth looking into. VirginiaI'm sure there's not. [Post-recording note: But there is in NYC!]CorinneAnd I did just double check and they're not on the BDS list, which I thought they were.VirginiaThat makes me feel a little better.CorinneI know. I love to go to a cool local coffee shop. And then sometimes I just want that sugary stuff. I also never know the sizes. I'm always like, can I have the large and they're like, venti? But I want, like, the tall, sweet, milky drink.VirginiaJack is not a Starbucks guy at all, and does not speak Starbucks. And we went to Starbucks when we were traveling, and my whole family orders all of our complicated drinks. And he's just like, can I just have a black coffee? And they were like, what?CorinneI feel like you can get him into it. VirginiaAll our complicated drinks came out, and they were like, a coffee? Did you say you wanted a black coffee? It took them, like, an hour to just make him a regular. CorinneI know. There’s a whole thing. I feel like fast food restaurants you have to, like, learn how to order from them.VirginiaYou have to speak the lingo. When I'm dealing with my voice stuff, which I periodically am, people can probably hear I'm a little raspy today. The medicine ball at Starbucks, which is an off menu item, is a really good get if you're having a sore throat.CorinneYeah, I will also say they're incredible for traveling. When I'm doing road trips, I'll often go in the morning, because they open at 5 or 6.VirginiaAnd you can get something predictable, like, you know what it's going to be, and you know you can eat their egg sandwich.CorinneI also want to add that I know a lot of them do actually pay better than smaller coffee shops and offer a lot of benefits that small businesses don't or can't.VirginiaI feel that information is both excellent to have, and not in the spirit of this episode. CorinneTrue.VirginiaBecause now you are discoursing Starbucks. CorinneI'm so sorry. I really am. VirginiaIt's okay. I discoursed Julia Marcum quite a bit. It's hard to talk about these things without discourse. I also just want to say drive-throughs in general are such a help to parents or anyone caregiving, because you can get the thing you need and not have to get the kids out of the car. My kids are old and they can get themselves in and out of the car, but in my infant/toddler years, oh man. I was like, Why can't everything be drive through?CorinneAlso for driving cross country with a dog. I don't want to leave her in the car if it's 100 degrees, but I do need to get food. VirginiaI do need to eat! So this is how we do it. So, drive-throughs are bad for the environment and also great sometimes. CorinneOkay, the last one on my list is Lizzo. VirginiaWhoa, problematic fave. Sorry, she is.CorinneI know, but I like her music, and I find her charming and delightful, even when she's talking about diets on podcasts. I'm just like, okay, I feel I can ignore it. VirginiaWell, look. If we're going to look past the flaws of our Bad, Skinny Girl TV, why wouldn't we look past the flaws of Black, fat women, you know what I mean? She deserves the same pass.CorinneThat is how I feel.VirginiaI love her music. My eight year old loves her music because she learned the word bitch from it. And she  likes to use the word bitch, and then be like, "I'm saying it in the Lizzo way, Mama." CorinneOh, that's funny.VirginiaAll right, speaking of my kids, I brought up this whole concept at dinner last night because I was trying to brainstorm my list. And I was like, guys, you have to help me think of my problematic faves. And I said, maybe the Eagles / NFL is a new problematic fave? Which I've gotten into because of Jack. And Jack was immediately like, yep, yep, it's super problematic, and I love it. So Jack's a huge Eagles fan. I've started watching Eagles games with him. I don't know what's happening, but I'm here for the player gossip and the sort of general world of it, which I find interesting. And I'm usually reading a book or doing something else while we're watching, but I like it. And I said at dinner, "Well, it's not like I really understand what's going on with the sport. I just kind of like the atmosphere of it."And my 12 year old goes, "Mama, now you're being a pick me girl!" And I was like, wait, am I? What's a pick me girl? And she said, "You're like, 'I don't know what's going on with the sport. Like, only boys really understand it. But I just like it, I guess.' That's such a pick me girl thing to do. You only like it because your boyfriend does!"CorinneI do think there's a pick me thing about being into sports because boys are into sports.VirginiaWell, I'm 44 and I've never before in my life attempted to like sports at all. And she was like, yeah, that makes it worse. It'd be different if you'd always liked it. Because my dad's side of the family is really into football. She's like, "You never watched it growing up with Granddad." I was like, no, I sure didn't. Wasn't a pick me girl then. CorinneWow. Called out.VirginiaCalled out. Middle schoolers are brutal. I was like,"Does my feminist credibility get me off the hook on this at all?" And the eight-year-old wants me to add that once they understood the concept of a pick me girl, they now co sign that Mama is being a pick me girl about football and no, being a good feminist does not erase that.CorinneGetting ganged up on! I do think sports is a good example of this, though. VirginiaI mean, the NFL is a mess. We were watching a game last week where this guy on the Giants broke his full foot off?! It was terrible. And he's like 20-something, and probably his football career just ended. CorinneThat's really awful.VirginiaAnd Jack told me the NFL is a 501c3, which seems wrong. They make quite a lot of money. I don't think they should be a nonprofit.[Post-recording note: They were actually a 5016b and gave up that status in 2015, but the point still stands.]CorinneYeah, that is confusing. VirginiaNot great. But Eagles does have an Autism Research Foundation, so that's nice. And I've noticed a lot of, a lot of feminist Hollywood people I like, really like the Eagles. Quinta Brunson is a huge Eagles fan. Also, Hannah Einbender from Hacks, said "Go birds" in her Emmy acceptance speech, along with "Free Palestine." And I was like, yep, here for both those things. So a lot of cool people like the Eagles.CorinneThe Eagles do seem like the the team to back.VirginiaThey're like the progressive team. I mean, until they're not, because it's football, and they trade the players around all the time. I don't know. I truly don't understand the sport at all, which apparently, again, is making it worse. CorinneI feel like, eventually you'll start. VirginiaI mean, I can't underscore enough that I did grow up in a football family, and none of it ever penetrated, so I had a lot of chances. I'm enjoying it more now.CorinneI'm into football for the snacks.VirginiaYes, I'm enjoying the food and, the Sunday afternoon ritual of it. On a Sunday afternoon, I just want to lay on the couch and chill. So sure, it could be football. It could be bad skinny girl TV. I'm just letting it wash over me totally and eating good snacks. ButterVirginiaOkay should we switch to non-problematic faves and do some Butter? CorinneYes, absolutely. What's your Butter?VirginiaMy Butter is that it is time to plant your fall bulbs. If you have not done it already. I really recommend everybody do some bulb planting. No matter how nascent of a gardener you are, you can't fuck up bulb planting. Like, get a bag of daffodil bulbs and dig some holes and put, three bulbs in each hole and cover them up. And that's all you have to do. CorinneWow. Maybe I should do that! VirginiaIt's so easy. It's very foolproof gardening. Bulbs are really like, you don't have to water. You just stick them in the ground. It doesn't even matter if you get them right side up, they figure it out underground. They're like, oh, I'm upside down. I'll flip around somehow. I don't know how they do it, but they'll be fine. And then in the spring, you're going to have daffodils, and you're going to be so happy. CorinneThat is a good Butter.VirginiaI try to plant them every year. Last fall I skipped and I regretted it. Critters do eat some, but daffodils are pretty bulletproof. And also alliums, nobody really wants to eat them. So those are my recommendations. Do some bulb planting. CorinneCool. That's a good rec. I'm going to recommend a recipe which is Korean BBQ style meatballs from New York Times Cooking. It's a really good recipe. It's very easy. It's a low lift. It's ground beef, crushed ritz crackers, scallions, soy sauce, garlic. And you basically just mash that all together, make it into little balls and then bake it. And it's very filling and delicious, and goes with any kind of carb-y thing you want to serve it with. I've been eating it with potatoes. VirginiaThis sounds awesome,.CorinneIt's just delicious and satisfying and easy.VirginiaAll right, I want people to tell us what their problematic--I'm sorry I don't have a better term--what their problematic faves are, what their moments of culture where you are unavailable for discourse. You just want to enjoy it. What are yours? Put them in the comments! I feel like we may need to do a master list of delightful favorite things. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with Kaila Yu. Kaila is an author based in Los Angeles. Her debut memoir, Fetishized: A Reckoning with Yellow Fever, Feminism, and Beauty, came out earlier this fall to a rave review in The New York Times. She's also a luxury travel and culture writer with bylines in The New York Times, Rolling Stone, The LA Times, Condé Nast Traveler and many more. Kaila's memoir grapples with her experience growing up Asian and female in a world that has so many stereotypes and expectations about both those things. We talk about the pressure to perform so many different kinds of specific beauty labor, the experience of being objectified sexually —and we really get into how we all navigate the dual reality of hating beauty standards and often feeling safer and happier complying with them. I learned so much from this book, and this conversation with Kaila. Don't forget that if you've bought Fat Talk from Split Rock Books, you can take 10% off your purchase of Fetishized there too — just use the code FATTALK at checkout. And if you value this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work!Join Burnt Toast! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Episode 218 TranscriptVirginiaWell, I just couldn't put this book down. Your writing is so powerful. The storytelling is incredible. The research is impeccable. It's just a phenomenal book. You write that from a pretty young age, "I felt the straightest path to empowerment was through courting the white male gaze," which, oof. I felt that. So many women reading can feel that in our bones. And iIn the great New York Times Book Review of your book, the writer asks, "How much can someone be blamed for their choices when those choices are predetermined by one's culture?" I feel like this is what we're always reckoning with at Burnt Toast, and this is what runs through the book: So often, beauty work is a logical survival strategy for us.KailaWe're taught at such a young age that women are just prized for this thing we have absolutely no control over, really. We can get surgery and makeup but beauty is a currency that's depreciating from the moment you receive it, according to the patriarchy. Like, it shouldn't be considered depreciating, but it is.And we learn this from like, Disney movies, right? In the book, I bring up my favorite, which is The Little Mermaid, which, because they recently came out with it again, has had a re-examination. And I think they edited it for current audiences. But The Little Mermaid wasn't unique. That was what every fairy tale was like. The beautiful princess wins a prince at the end, and that's the goal. VirginiaAnd it doesn't matter that she gave up her family, her home, her culture, her body, everything. KailaYeah, she fell in love with him after seeing him one time. And him the same with her, without speaking a word to her, because it doesn't matter.VirginiaIt's purely aesthetic, what we're falling in love with. KailaWhen I was growing up—and it's changed so much since then, luckily—there was just such scarce representations of Asian women. Mostly they were just prostitutes and massage parlor girls on the side, you know? Not even speaking in movies. It wasn't really until Lucy Liu that we got a well-known named actress—and that was way after college for me. So growing up there really just wasn't anyone.VirginiaYou do a great deep dive into Memoirs of a Geisha, which, I'm embarrassed to say--I was a kid when that book came out, and I didn't realize it was written by a white man! I was like, I'm sorry, what?KailaNobody knows this! I've been talking about it, and still to this day, many people are surprised.VirginiaI had no idea. Why did anyone give that book the credence it was given? I mean, it's mind blowing. And you're right. It's a story of child prostitution and exploitation.KailaThat is glamorized. And sadly, it was beautifully written. Like, I loved the book when I was I think in high school, when I first read it. It is just so well done that you kind of just skate over the many, many red flags.VirginiaSo as an Asian teenage girl reading the book, you're thinking, "Oh, I'm seeing myself. This is Asian stories being told. This is powerful." And then, wait, who's telling the story?KailaYeah, we didn't really think about that. I think I knew it was a white guy author, but I was like, "That's okay." Like, at that age, I wasn't really thinking about it. I was like, "Thank you for sharing our story," because I didn't really know any history of geisha either. I thought this was what it was, right? And I was very invisible in high school. So to see these glamorous, beautiful geisha, dressing up in finery and fighting for attention in this seemingly glamorous world was very enticing to me. Because there really were no other examples. Virginiait speaks to the dearth of representation that you were like, "Pkay, finally, they're showing us" and it's this terrible story of a child prostitute.KailaMargaret Cho really said this amazing quote, which I'm going to butcher, and I'm paraphrasing. But she said something like, "Asian actresses are like, 'Hopefully one day I can be the prostitute in a war movie, or hopefully one day I could be the woman that the husband cheats on." And she's like, there's so little representation that we would be glad to hold an umbrella behind a main celebrity, just to be in the picture.VirginiaIt's enraging. Since you mention war movies: I was fascinated by the history you include in the book, tracing the development of Asiaphile culture. And we should probably define that term for listeners, who don't know exactly what an Asiaphile is.Subscribe to never miss an episode!KailaYeah, it's a pretty obscure term that's not used that often. But I use it just because it's an easy, succinct way to say man with an Asian fetish. But I want to specify that I don't think most men who are dating Asian women have an Asian fetish. I do think it's a small vocal minority, but they are very vocal and very online. And they are people who treat Asian women as disposable, replaceable sex objects. VirginiaAnd this is really rooted in colonialism and in US military occupations.KailaI don't think people realize the deep history of that. The origins are probably because when Western men first encountered Asian women, it was in colonialist situations. Whether they were going there to spread Christianity or during American occupations in multiple Asian countries. What's disturbing is that after these young, impressionable soldiers who are like probably barely out of high school, have finished fighting a very traumatic war, they're rewarded by being sent to rest and recreation centers in Thailand or somewhere beachy and nice. Where they found these stations, or clubs, of prostitutes set up specifically for them as a reward.VirginiaIt's skin crawling. That is just a part of our history. That is a thing we did. And I don't think it's well understood, and it completely makes sense then okay, this is how white men first began relating to Asian women. And it has just become more and more entrenched.KailaAnd Thailand is still a hub of sex tourism today. I don't think there's any military occupation there now, but that industry is all from that time period.VirginiaIt's so dark. Okay, so you have the Asiaphile issue. You have this geisha representation of Asian women as sexual objects, disposable. And then on the flip side, there is the stereotype of the Asian woman who's an A student, very cold, the Tiger Mom, the Lucy Liu sort of characters. Which is also really problematic and narrow. And those are your options. KailaYes, yes. I fell into that model minority stereotype, which is exists because I think Asian parents immigrate here to give their children a better life, so they're very strict. My parents, at least, were very strict and expected excellence in school and obedience to parents. And so I was very shy and very studious and all of those things. And I found my social life very lacking in that way. And I did not like being a model minority student. Because that nerdy Asian stereotype was represented on TV at the time in very terrible ways, with the Revenge Of The Nerds guy, or with the Sixteen Candles Asian guy. Super cringy versions. You don't want to be associated with that at all, as a young person. So I really swung the other way, aggressively rebelling like some other people might not have. Most people, most Asians, didn't rebel as much as I did, but I just really, really rebelled against that stereotype.VirginiaI mean, it's so understandable. It's not remotely empowering. Even with some of Lucy Liu's characters where she's playing like a "powerful" woman, it's a very narrow form of power.KailaYes, and it's sexualized. Always.VirginiaSo it makes sense that as a kid, you're like, "Well, I don't want to be in this box. I guess I'll go over here." And it just shows how few choices we give girls in general, but especially Asian girls. You've always got to pick a lane in a way that doesn't let you just be human.KailaIt's robbing women of multi-faceted humanity.VirginiaSo you were like, okay, I'm not going to be the model A student. Tell a little of where you went next.KailaWhen I was in high school, there weren't any Asian female role models that were useful. And then the internet started. So then I was surfing around online, and I discovered that there were dozens or even hundreds of websites dedicated to this one Asian model named Sung Hi Lee. And I became really obsessed with her, because I'd never seen so many non-Asians and Asian guys be fans of an Asian woman, period. And she was so beautiful and stunning. But she was a Playboy model, so she was very, very highly sexualized. And I spent many years being a fan of hers. And then I started to aspire to want to be like her, because it just seemed like she had everything I didn't. And then eventually, when I got to college, I started to pursue pinup modeling, and then that eventually went into import modeling, which is very niche Asian car shows that ultimately inspired Fast and Furious. But it was not really known out of the import or Asian community.VirginiaAnd were there parts of the work that were validating and enjoyable? Or was it always sort of this feeling of I'm trying to play a role, I'm trying to be something that other people want from me?KailaI say that at first, it felt like love. I couldn't explain it at the time, but like looking back, I had such a lack of self-love from the beginning. I think I was just maybe born that way, or built that way. That attention, after feeling so invisible in high school, felt like so deeply validating. But it's just such a temporary hit. And then there are all these girls coming up behind you and you're being pitted against each other. So it's like a cocaine high, you know? It's lasts a day or two, and then you're chasing the next thing. So it wasn't at all fulfilling. VirginiaAnd you become increasingly aware of all you need to do in terms of your own body appearance in order to keep being the girl that they want for this. KailaI mean, before I even started pursuing import modeling, I got breast implants, which are still really huge now today, but this was the era where Baywatch was massive, and Pamela Anderson was the ideal. And I was completely flat chested, so I was like I don't feel completely feminine. Even Sung Hi Li, that model I looked up to, had breast implants. So the complicated thing is that I don't regret the breast implants. I like them. But I wish we didn't live in a society where we have to get surgeries to feel better about ourselves, right?Join Burnt Toast! VirginiaYou wish it could be a choice that you made on your own terms, and not in response to this feeling of lacking something.KailaBut I definitely felt lacking in that arena. So that was the mindset behind the surgery. Then in the book I talk about—and this is a little bit timely now, because I don't know if you saw the Love Island controversy. This happened in the last season of Love Island, Cierra Ortega, who was a big contestant who made it near the end, got kicked off the show because she had made some comments about her eyes, calling them the C word, which is a slur referring to Chinese eyes. And she was basically saying, oh, my eyes look too Asian. I'm going to get them Botoxed so they're wider or whatever. I think Asians learned that many people didn't realize that that word is considered a slur, and then especially how she was using it, because she was saying she didn't like how her eyes looked.VirginiaBut no producer on the show knew that it was a slur?KailaShe didn't say it on the show. It resurfaced. You know how fans go back. So she ended up getting booted off the show. And I don't believe in cancel culture and all of that, but I thought it was important for people to know that Asians do consider that a slur. VirginiaIt's important for everyone to understand. KailaBut I myself got that eye surgery. There's a surgery called double eyelid surgery, which is probably the most popular surgery amongst Asians, at least East Asians, and it was popularized in South Korea, I believe, during the wartime by this white doctor named Dr Ralph Millard, who was trying to make prostitutes' eyes look better for military men or for wives to look better for the military men who were bringing them back home. And then in medical journals, he described the Asian eye as dull and listless and unemotional. I wasn't trying to get my eyes lifted to look more white, and I think most Asian girls like me aren't. In Asia, bigger eyes are just considered more attractive. But it's important to know that the surgery originated from someone who had racist comments to make about the Asian eye.VirginiaAnother gift from white men. They really have done so much for us. I had Elise Hu on the podcast when Flawless came out, her book about the Korean beauty industry, which is fascinating. It was really interesting for me to learn that these standards also are part of Asian culture. And it's not necessarily about seeking whiteness. It's also just a longheld beauty standard within the culture—but then fueled by racist white doctors developing surgeries and what not. And that that kind of push pull is really interesting to me, that it's a both/and.KailaBut then I wonder, as we're speaking, is that beauty standard ultimately Western? To have bigger eyes? I don't know. I haven't done enough research on that to comment on it at all, but that's a question that just popped into my head. Listen to Virginia and Elise Hu!Virginia I think what your book explores, and what you're talking about, is how we lose touch with the origin stories of these standards, but the standards feel so important to achieve all the same. And I think that's what we see over and over in beauty culture. We get conditioned and normalized to needing this body part to look this way. And we usually don't unpack why we've decided that's so important. And then when you do look at the origins, they're always very dark and racist.KailaWe've just seen it in this generation when we were growing up Paris Hilton was the body type choice, and then it was Kim Kardashian. Neither body is really that achievable? VirginiaNo, definitely not. KailaAnd so it swung and you couldn't fit into either one. And then now it's back. So yeah, there's no way of winning that.VirginiaSpeaking of bodies, I wanted to ask you how you see anti-fatness, which is, of course, the beauty bias that we talk about the most on Burnt Toast, intersecting with and upholding anti-Asian racism.KailaIt's always a joke, when you go back to your family of origin, they're like, "Oh, you gained weight!" That's always what they'll say to criticize you.But it's crazy. I was skinny when I was 25 and I got hired to do a movie in Beijing. And then when I got there, the skinny standards in Asia are scary. And I met the director, and then the next day, I got fired because he told my agent, like, oh, she's heavier than we thought. But I was not at all, I was skinnier than I am now. So, yeah, I do feel the beauty standards and weight standards in Asia are super, super toxic. I wouldn't want to be a woman in East Asia. It's even worse, I think, than being a woman in Western cultures. Between the youthfulness and weight standards, it's it's a lot tougher than here, I think.VirginiaWas managing your weight something you were thinking about during those years as well? Like that was also part of achieving this look?KailaYes, definitely, weight was always a concern with that kind of East Asian expectation in place. I will be very transparent to say that I was doing a lot of cocaine at the time so that made it less of an issue, just because not eating is a symptom of a lot of cocaine.VirginiaYeah, that's a whole other piece. I think you write about addiction really beautifully in the memoir as well. And I super appreciated that component of it. KailaWhen I started using substances and alcohol, it just, like, again, felt like a form of love. The first time I did ecstasy. I mean, a lot of people do describe ecstasy as feeling like love, and I think for someone so lacking in it, it was just maybe more deeply fulfilling than for the next person.VirginiaI mean, as we were saying, working as an import model, it's so validating. It feels like love, and then it's over, and then you're not quite good enough, and you're competing against other girls. And then here's this other way to get the feeling. It just all makes sense that it would all fit together. How were your relationships with other women during this time? With the competition so cutthroat, and particularly the pressure on Asian women, that can create so much toxicity and competition. KailaI think it was very well-reflected and illustrated for me in Memoirs of a Geisha. Because that's very much a story of how this very young girl comes into the industry and takes down this older geisha, like the most famous geisha in all of the area is taken down by this much younger girl. And from the minute the younger girl enters the scene, this older geisha is threatened because she knows she's there to take her place. And it probably happened to another geisha before her, you know? But, the thing with me is, I've always been a girl's girl. So I've always had my group of friends, and that's really helped temper some of the situations. I think I always felt very threatened in the import industry, because I felt I made it there because when I set my mind on something, I'll knock down the door to get in. But some of the girls were there just simply because they were super beautiful, and I felt like they just had an easy gliding ride through everything where I was trying to pitch and submit and get into things. So that always gave another layer of insecurity.VirginiaAgain, this is patriarchy, right? If we're all pitted against each other, then men have more control over women. And it's interesting that Memoirs of a Geisha, which was this very like formative influence on you, was portraying women pitted against each other. And then that's replicated in the industries you move into. And in Memoirs of a Geisha, it's not really a critique. He's not arguing that they should form an alliance, that they should reject the system. There's none of that. So it just kind of keeps perpetuating this representation of Asian women. It's all piling on top of each other, and it's so hard to start to see the whole picture.KailaAnd then you're watching it in media happen too, right? With Britney Spears and Cristina Aguilera, who I don't think were enemies, but they probably became that way, because it was people started gossiping and then you just create conflict.VirginiaWomen are cast into these roles, and in order to hold on to the power that we have, it becomes necessary to keep playing these roles. What was it that helped you start to dissect all of this? Because you're clearly in a really different place with your relationship to all of this now, what was it that made you start to say, like, okay, I'm actually participating in a whole system that is harmful to me, that it doesn't align with my values.KailaI don't think I even had any clarity about that until, like, maybe 10 or 15, years ago, when I got sober. I had quit modeling, and I had started a musician career. And then we had a little bit of success, but then ultimately, we weren't making any money. And I was in my 30s, so I was like, okay, I need to find a real career now. Because this wasn't working for me. So even then, I wasn't thinking critically about things. I was trying to find my career. But only when I got sober and I started going to a therapist, that's only when I could even look at anything with the drugs and alcohol. Everything is hazy and you could rationalize anything really. It's funny, because I do a lot of therapy and trauma therapy and IFS therapy. And it's much easier being sober and and having a support group and walking through some of the trauma as someone decades older than the little 21 year old. But it's just so important, I think, to deal with the trauma. Because I stuffed it down for decades. So then I kept having to feel it in different ways, and suffer through it. And I think when you just process the feelings and let them pass, feel them, then you're, they're no longer haunting you and your subconscious.VirginiaBut it's hard work. I give you a lot of credit. That's major uphill work. And you do a really incredible job in the book of reckoning with where you were complicit. You talk about pushing some of the younger girls in the band to be more sexual than they were comfortable with, because you were trying to make sure the band was appealing to Asiaphiles. This is not quite the same, but before I did this, I was a women's magazine writer and wrote a lot of really terrible diet stories. It's hard to look at how we participated in such toxic systems. KailaYeah. When you're a fish swimming in water, you have no idea. And it's important to look back, I think, and reflect on it. And I think the positive part of it is that I feel like Gen Z and Z and Gen Alpha, they're so much more aware, and they're already kind of being critical as things happen. Whereas for me, I did it decades later, and there's nothing that could be changed. But if we could just keep having these conversations and look critically at things while they're happening. Right now we're like, doing this whole reckoning where we're apologizing to the women of the 2000s, like the Paris Hiltons and the Monica Lewinsky's and Amanda Knox right now because we treated them horribly. Virginia How has that changed your relationship with beauty and with beauty work now? I mean, you talked about complicated feelings about your breast implants, which makes so much sense. I'm curious if any of it feels more optional now? Do you still feel like you have to opt in? KailaI think writing the book was one of the most healing things, which was an unexpected outcome that wasn't the intention of writing the book, I guess. And then also, my editor, Amy Lee, is an Asian American woman, so she could deeply relate to a lot of what happened and had experienced similar things. It is complicated, because I still dye my hair. I still like to look pretty. I think what it isn't is male-centered. And that just might just be because I'm older. I'm not dressing like I dressed in my 20s. VirginiaYou're like, I would like to be comfortable now.KailaBut I would love to aspire to be where Pamela Anderson is now, where she just is makeup-less on a red carpet and everyone's like, this is amazing. And if more people could do that, and we could become just more normalized to that, I think that's where the change would really, really happen.VirginiaShe has had such an interesting arc, and I give her a lot of credit, that she's just like, why are you even talking about this? I'm just showing up with my face. And I think women are like, oh, this is so inspiring and amazing. And then when you see the male comments...KailaOh I haven’t been reading.VirginiaThere are so many men who are personally let down to learn that it was all fake. They frame it as, she was faking it the whole time, she was never really beautiful. If this is what she really looks like. "She was lying to us for years." And this whole premise of men thinking that women wearing makeup is "lying" is so interesting, because this is what we're supposed to do to please you. This is the standard that patriarchy requires of us. You don't get to feel personally betrayed that we have held these standards.KailaI love how they're personally offended.VirginiaThey're like, "But I watched Baywatch for years. She didn't look like that!"KailaShe was also 21, right? Women age, as do men! VirginiaIt's like when Jennifer Love Hewitt was was doing her publicity tour for I Know What You Did Last Summer. They rebooted it, and everyone was like, oh my God, she doesn't look the same anymore. And it's like, great, it's been 20 years. She was 17 or something when she made the first one. Now she's a mom with three kids. She doesn't look the same.Absolutely wild. And meanwhile, men are allowed to age and become silver foxes.KailaI think more and more we're just showing older women like that's normal and not having crazy amounts of surgeries. Like, I think it's just all about normalizing. So we could see more and more of this. Like, one really good example is how when I was growing up, Asian men weren't seen as desirable. They were emasculated. But now that K Pop is big, there are a lot of women who are suddenly into Asian men as they were never before. Media representation is so, so important.VirginiaAnd I think it's useful for us in our own lives to think like, well, what can I give myself permission? I mean, I'm with you. I'm still dyeing my hair, but I'm every now and then I'm like, are we ready to let the grays out? I don't know. It's important to at least name for ourselves: I am participating in this labor. I could opt out. That feels scary. There's parts of this I enjoy because it's fun to feel pretty and I mean that's what I try to do with my own kids, at least. Like, when they see me putting on makeup or whatever, it's like, "I'm participating in patriarchal labor! Also, it's just a lipstick!" They're like, we get it.KailaThey're so much more aware.VirginiaWhen we do feel like we can opt out of something, that's really liberating, when you can say, okay, I'm not going to. I don't hold myself to the thinness standard anymore. That's not what my body is. It's not what it ever is gonna be without intense, traumatic interventions. And so that one I'm letting go. Other ones are harder to let go.KailaI guess it's maybe the conservative movement, because that's all about controlling bodies in a negative way. Because we've swung towards the Ozempic thin again, which I find it troubling that a lot of body positive icons are like, suddenly shrinking.VirginiaIt's kind of what we were saying. On the one hand it is really hard to exist in a fat body in this world. Everyone is allowed to make their own choices about their bodies. And it's sad that we're losing fat representation. It's sad that we're seeing more homogenized thin bodies. And it's tricky, because I really believe we can't police people's individual choices. KailaYeah, so tough, so tough to be a woman.VirginiaIt really is. It's a whole thing. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈ButterKailaWell, I just finished bingeing this show called The Girlfriend on Amazon Prime. VirginiaI don't know that one!KailaIt has Robin Wright, and her son gets this girlfriend, and there are some things about her that the mom doesn't like, and then they go to war against each other. It's not really great for, like, female on female. But it's really well done. It's like, more trashy kind of drama. VirginiaWe love some trashy drama!KailaIt's escapism. VirginiaAll right, I'm going to check that out. Less trashy, but definitely drama. I just finished watching Dying for Sex on Hulu. Oh man, all the trigger warnings. If you have anyone in your life, any cancer stuff, choose carefully. It goes to dark places. But like, such a beautiful story of female friendship. Who knew Jenny Slate was this incredible dramatic actress? You're used to her being so goofy, comedic and she has so many layers in that performance. It's so nuanced and beautiful. Oh, my God. I just absolutely loved it. Cried through so many episodes. KailaYeah, I went back and listened to the podcast. VirginiaOh, I want to do that!KailaIit's such a unique story, right? Because we're seeing so many reboots and, like Marvel. And I just love an original story. VirginiaIt's so original, for anyone who hasn't seen the show, I'm not spoiling this. It's in the first episode, she's diagnosed with terminal cancer. She leaves her husband and she's never had an orgasm with a partner. She really wants to explore her sexuality before she dies, and she kind of embarks on this whole journey with that. It's, like, edgy and raw and very dark, at times, but also very joyful and empowering. And, yeah, it's just, it's not a story that gets told very often, that's for sure. KailaWould a guy ever have sex if he didn't have an orgasm, right? Women are just like, not having orgasms all over the place.VirginiaYes, yes, the rage I felt about that. Kaila, thank you so much for doing this. This was wonderful. Tell folks where we can find you and how we can support your work.KailaYeah. My name is Kaila Yu, so you could find me on all social media websites. And then the book is in all bookstores and I say, support your local bookstore.🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it's time for your October Extra Butter episode. Today we're talking about plus size fashion influencer and body acceptance advocate Katie Sturino — who teamed up with WeightWatchers last year. What happened there? And where is the line between body liberation activism and capitalism? (Yes, we struggle with that too!) To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber. Join Extra Butter! Already an Extra Butter subscriber, and having a hard time getting this episode in your podcast player of choice? Step by step instructions are here! Episode 217 TranscriptCorinneWelcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! If you're listening to this, you are part of Extra Butter, which means you're our favorite Burnt Toasties. VirginiaYour support makes all our work possible and keeps Burnt Toast an ad- and sponsor free space. Which is relevant to today's conversation! CorinneToday, we're going to talk about influencer and advocate Katie Sturino, who became famous on Instagram for her #SuperSizeTheLook content and for creating the Megababe product line. But more recently, she teamed up with Oprah and Weight Watchers, and has gone public about her use of GLP-1s.VirginiaSo before we get into it, let me do my standard caveat that I give anytime we do one of these episodes where we talk about a particular person's work in deal. Body autonomy is a given at Burnt Toast. Katie has the right to take her GLP-1s. That is her business. We're not interrogating that personal decision. We are also not "women tearing down other women," which is the other go-to critique of this work. We're considering Katie's entire body of work here, and we're asking: Is this true body liberation activism? Or is this an example of capitalism co-opting activism? I think that's a valuable question for anyone in the influencing space to be grappling with. I think Corinne and I both walk that line as well in our work. So we are going to critique Katie and some of the professional choices she's made but this is a lens we all benefit from looking through. CorinneWith that, I feel that I need to disclose that I have received gifted products from Megababe.VirginiaFor example! It’s a gray area, guys. I have not, but I would have been happy to receive that gift. CorinneI recommended stuff from Megababe before I ever received free stuff! But I have received free stuff. And I do like some of their products. VirginiaThis episode is also not going to be a critique of specific products. Preventing thigh chafing is a noble endeavor.So how did you first encounter Katie Sturino? Do you remember when you first became aware of her work?CorinneIt's honestly hard for me to remember because I feel like she's been around for so long!VirginiaLike 10 years.CorinneIf not more!VirginiaIt was the mid-2010s when she really came onto the scene.CorinneI definitely encountered her Instagram. I think it was her style content. I remember seeing her going into a store and trying on stuff that didn't fit, or trying their biggest size and it wouldn't work for her. And then I also remember the #SuperSizeTheLook.VirginiaFor folks who don't know: #SuperSizeTheLook is a series where Katie picks a photo of a celebrity wearing a really cute outfit, and then styles herself wearing the same outfit. Usually not in identical pieces, because the sizes are not going to work. But she mimics the outfit, and she mimics the pose really well. If it's a celebrity getting out of a town car with a purse on her arm, Katie will also be getting out of a town car. Or walking a tiny dog. She mimics the whole vibe of the photo. And the goal is to show you that bigger bodies look cute in clothes. Which is a message we're here for! CorinneWhat about you? How did you first encounter her?VirginiaWhat's interesting about Katie and me is that we are the same age, we are both 44. And we both come out of the New York media world. I learned this all researching the episode; I don't know her personally. I never worked with her. But we have sort of similar trajectories into body liberation work.And when she first launched, her blog was originally called The 12ish Style. I was also a size 12-ish. Those were my Midsize Queen years, before moving into full plus sizes. So we've had similar trajectories of being in this space first a mid-sized person, and then a small fat person. I've always been interested in her fashion and the way she styles stuff, because it was often quite directly relevant to my own body, though not necessarily relevant to everybody. She is also, like, a foot taller than me, I think? She seems quite tall in photos and she wears very tall heels, too, which is impressive to me, if not actually something I can pull off. But I've always appreciated the vibe and the energy of Katie's content.  She's very open book. A lot of her posts are shot in her underwear, wearing no makeup, in a swimsuit. She's always showing us, "Here's what my real body looks like." There are critiques to be made of this genre of content making, but I think it's also powerful to see non-airbrushed, not super thin bodies. I think there's a lot of value in that. So I knew Megababe, I knew #SuperSizeTheLook, but I didn't know a ton of her backstory. So I did a little research, and most of what I'm going to share with you comes from a New York Times piece that ran in June with the headline, What Katie Sturino Wants You to Know About Her Body (and Yours, Too). This is by Madison Malone Kircher and it ran June 22, 2025.We're going to get into it later in the episode, but Katie is not thrilled with this piece. And I just want to say I have empathy for being in the New York Times and not being thrilled with the way they cover your work. Can relate! So I am going to quote from the piece, because I think it makes some interesting points, and there's some useful context in there. But I'm not saying this piece does the best job analyzing her work. The New York Times describes Katie as "a dog-obsessed public relations pro turned body positivity influencer slash entrepreneur, who built a social media audience by posting candidly about her life."Katie began her career in fashion PR. I think her first job was at Gucci or Dolce Gabbana. She then started her own PR firm in the 2010s. And then found found Internet fame as a dogager, which is a dog manager, running an Instagram account for her Cavalier King Charles Spaniel named Toast. So this is how she started. Did you know she was a dog influencer before she was a fashion influencer?CorinneI think I do vaguely remember that.VirginiaToast has since passed away. RIP Toast. Great name for a dog, obviously. But I did not know that she started as a dog influencer. That was news to me, and, frankly, rather delightful. But: Coming from a PR background, finding Internet fame through dog influencing...this is a very specific lens to which she's coming to this work. Katie is now a multi-hyphenate. She had a podcast called Boob Sweat. She wrote a non-fiction book Body Talk, which is an illustrated workbook about self love. She has a Substack newsletter. She has the Megababe the product line. And she published her first novel this spring. So Katie is very busy! She is doing a lot. Have you followed her for recs, or you've used Megababe? You like Megababe. CorinneI've used Megababe. I like Megababe. Her particular style has never quite been for me. It's hard to describe exactly what doesn't click for me. It's just very clear, even just reading the this bio—she's very savvy, she's always hustling, she always has kind of a business PR angle, which I both respect and don't relate to.VirginiaThis is her New York media roots. I never worked with Katie, but I worked with lots of Katies. I know this kind of hard-charging woman who's extremely smart and great at marketing and knows how to build a brand and talk to an audience. So she has that whole skill set—and she could be doing it about body positivity, she could be doing it about a dog. She's interested in building a brand. For example, let's consider her first novel Sunny Side Up. Katie tells the New York Times that she worked with a ghost writer: "I don't have the traditional path that a lot of people who write books have had, and I needed help," she said, adding she felt no shame or embarrassment about having a collaborator."I love how upfront she is about that. A lot of books are written by ghostwriters, and I sort of wish people were more aware of that. Mine were not. But I have been a ghost writer! So I don't mind that that's a part of it, but I do think that it's interesting that it wasn't Katie had a novel inside her that she was dying to write. It was that Katie knew that having a novel would be a good brand extension. And the novel is about a plus size fashion influencer who goes on to launch a plus size swimsuit line. And... Katie's plus size swimsuit line came out this summer right after the book launch.CorinneIt's honestly mind boggling. How does anyone handle all that?VirginiaYes, it's so many things. And it does make me take a slightly different look at some of her some of her body positive content. For example, a recurring theme is her in a swimsuit. And the caption is always something like, "figured you could use a size 18 woman in a swimsuit on your feed," just showing her normal body in a swimsuit. But now that I know she's selling the swimsuits that hits differently. So is that just a smart swimsuit marketing strategy or does it feel off to you? CorinneI mean, both? She seems incredibly smart. I'm just impressed that anyone can do as much as she's doing. And: I do think sometimes it feels like you're being sold to, you know?VirginiaAnd because her work is centered around a message that has a social justice component, and a self-help component: Where is the line between "these are her values, and she's built a business on her values, "and "she's co-opting advocacy rhetoric to sell us products?"CorinneIt's definitely a gray area. VirginiaTo further the gray area: I looked at more of her content and I'm also like, these swimsuits are pretty cute. There's also this whole Wirecutter piece I want to talk about, where she goes over her fashion favs. It's good! I clicked through so many links. I was like, "Do I want these $460 jeans? I don't know!"CorinneOh now I want to see them.VirginiaYet I'm also thinking: But you are supposed to be so raw and authentic, and this is your whole vibe, and you're showing us yourself in a swimsuit, because that's supposed to feel brave. First of all, that's problematic in and of itself. Can it stop being brave for fat women to wear swimsuits in public? I would love that to not be a heroic move anymore, but in Katie Sturino's world it is radical to do that, and she's doing it. And... she's selling us the swimsuit.CorinneWell I think there are a lot of ways in which Katie is a very acceptable spokesperson for this messaging. VirginiaSay more about that.CorinneWell, first of all, she has a background in PR. And I think, even at her biggest she's...VirginiaShe's glamorous.CorinneShe's pretty, and she has a certain style. She looks wealthy, I want to say.VirginiaWell, she sure is, because guess who officiated at their wedding? Former mayor of New York City, and friend of her family, Michael Bloomberg.CorinneOh, okay, yeah.VirginiaThis is from the New York Times: "In addition to their apartment in Chelsea, the couple splits their time between homes in Palm Beach, Florida and Maine."CorinneI mean, they are definitely in a different tax bracket than myself.VirginiaSo yes. Wealthy. CorinneBut there are also people who are wealthy and wear Blundstones and barn jackets, you know? She's wearing blazers and heels.VirginiaA lot of pantsuits.Corinne A lot of jewelry. And she's always on vacation somewhere tropical.VirginiaYeah, in an amazing caftan. She's leaning into glam.CorinneShe looks polished. VirginiaShe's very polished. It's very New York City. Like, Sex and the City vibes. She could hang out with Carrie Bradshaw and she would totally fit in with them at one of those fancy lunches. And that's cool. That's her aesthetic. It's also representative of a certain socioeconomic privilege level. This is something that I saw frequently in women's magazines, and something I talked about when Jenn Romolini came on the podcast: So many people who work in New York City media, at the high levels, come from privilege. It is a very nepo-baby-driven industry. Because these are jobs that you have to do tons of unpaid internships to get. And/or work for no money as an assistant. The only way you can do that is if you have family money supporting your ability to access these industries. So it's not surprising to me that she comes from a privileged background, because she comes from PR and fashion, and that's who works in those industries.And I still think it's interesting and somewhat transgressive to be a woman in a larger body in that world. It helps me understand why it felt radical to be a size 12 dressing like a celebrity, because a size 12 in that world is an extremely non-normative body, right? This is the tier of people who have access to all the personal trainers, who are playing tennis all summer. There is no space to be a fat person in that world. So even at a size 12, it feels like, oh my gosh, your body is so other. The scale is just different when you move in these different spaces. So I can critique the space. I can be like, okay, you're friends with billionaires, and that's a hard place to be in a larger body of any kind. Did you take a look at the Wirecutter piece where she was giving a lot of like clothing recs and it's like advice for dressing as a plus size person?CorinneYes, I did take a look at it. She does have some good recs in there. I will say very expensive recs. Her preferred white t-shirt is $100.VirginiaAnd you're going to get spaghetti sauce on it so fast. CorinneIt's a weird vibe. VirginiaOkay, so now let's talk about Oprah and Weight Watchers. In 2024 Katie posted a critique of the first ABC special Oprah did about GLP-1s. And she gave a fairly nuanced critique. There was stuff she liked, there was stuff she didn't like, but she specifically said, "They came so close, and I wish Weight Watchers had fully apologized for the harm they had caused by pushing all of us to diet and want to change our bodies for so long." She was like, oh, they almost got it, but they didn't. And then in response, CEO Sima Sistani got on Instagram and did apologize. She did this speech of, you're right, Katie. I was wrong. Like, we've been wrong. We've done harm, and kind of fully walked into it. So what was your take when that all happened? CorinneTo be honest, I wasn't paying too much attention. But I do think the best apology from Weight Watchers would be them closing down, you know? It's very weird to me to be like, "Yes, we realize we've done harm, and we're just going to keep doing it."VirginiaWell, and what they were really apologizing for was selling a plan that didn't work and now they're selling GLP-1s. So it's, "We have the thing that'll work now!" As opposed to apologizing for trying to make us all do this in the first place. CorinneEven Katie going on Instagram and calling out the CEO— something like that, would just never occur to me, because I don't know, I just would never expect someone at Weight Watchers to respond or care. And I also think Weight Watchers is a microcosm, you know? It's like, sure, Weight Watchers has done harm, and they're just part of a bigger system. And you're not acknowledging that there's a bigger system there.VirginiaWell and Katie did get a response. Now, on the one hand, Katie has many more Instagram followers than you, so there's that piece of it. But I think it's an open question how planned this was, and whether they had talked ahead of time that Katie would critique and that Sima Sistani would publish her apology. Because I mean number one, no Weight Watchers CEO can just casually hop on her Instastories and apologize without having run the plan by many lawyers to make sure that she wasn't going to tank the business. So that had to have been planned, to some extent. And then the next piece of this is later last year, Katie had her own interview with Oprah in a different special, this one sponsored by Weight Watchers. And then she went on to host a podcast for Weight Watchers. So at some point, Katie got paid by Weight Watchers. Whether it was not until she hosted the podcast, or whether she was paid to be on the special with Oprah, or whether she was in a sponsorship deal with them when she asked for the apology, we don't know. But at some point, she moved from activist to on the payroll of a diet company.CorinneWasn't her response like, "Well, they were going to pay someone, it might as well be me? Or like it might as well be a plus size person." VirginiaWhat she said in the Oprah interview is, "If we don't have this conversation, if we don't insert our voice into this conversation, someone else will. Someone else will make those decisions for us." That's her argument. She wants to be in the room where it happens. She wants to be representing plus size people to these companies and with these companies. But she's not doing it pro-bono. She's not Tigress Osborne, Executive Director of NAAFA, depending on fundraisers to pay for plane tickets to places. She's doing this as a multi-hyphenate with three homes who's now getting a paycheck from Weight Watchers.CorinneYeah, it's so complicated. Because on the one hand, I can see her point. If Weight Watchers is going to be giving money to someone, it's kind of good that they would be giving some of it to fat people. So on the one hand capitalism, we're all kind of forced to sell out in some way, and on the other hand, you don't love to see it. VirginiaYou don't love to see it.CorinneEspecially when that person has three homes. VirginiaIt's a moment where I think her experiences of marginalization as a fat person erased her ability to see her privilege as a wealthy, white person. If Weight Watchers is going to pay fat people, Katie Sturino is not the person I need them to pay! I am not the person I need them to pay. Those of us in a certain tax bracket, living at a certain privilege level, are not the ones who need cash reparations from Weight Watchers. It's lower income folks who have paid to be in those meetings for years and years, who took their daughters to those meetings, who this company preyed on because it was an "affordable" approach to weight loss. And took their money over and over again every time they regained the weight and came back.CorinneWell, this is all is reminding me of the book Dietland.VirginiaBy Sarai Walker, friend of the show, yes.CorinneWhere the the heiress of the diet company is using profits from the diet company to do a type of reparations, vigilante justice. VirginiaI don't think that that's what's happening here.And I want to look a little bit at what Katie's defense has been around all of this. She's not afraid to talk very directly to haters who criticize her about her body. So in the New York Times piece, she disclosed that she's taking a GLP-1 for her own weight loss, and she then shared in a video that this was a medical decision, that she didn't really care if she lost weight or not that it was doing it to manage her A1C whatever. Again, that's Katie's business. I have no opinion about that. But she's in a smaller body now—not down to a size 12, but a mid-sized body now—and she's still pushing herself as a face of this movement. And that is a little bit complicated. She's talked about how it doesn't matter what size she is, she gets flack all the time. Like, when she was a size 12, she was too small to be representing body positivity. As a 22 people said she was too big. She's always, always, always getting constant comments about her bodies. And you know, that is really hard to deal with. That is not welcome feedback.And it is tricky that she has made her body very much her brand, I don't know, I struggle with this. It sounds like I'm saying she's asking for it, and I'm not. But you're posting content in swimsuits all the time. You're showing us your rolls, and then you're saying we shouldn't talk about people's bodies. Bodies are the least interesting thing about us. But her body is very interesting to her. She's making it a center of her work.CorinneI mean, you're making some points. It's hard to land in one way or another here. I do think the cost to being a public figure in the way that she is, in some ways, is people harassing you. And I think that's horrible and too high a cost. I also think she's made some really strange decisions, like working with Weight Watchers and still wanting to defend body neutrality or whatever.VirginiaYeah, she prefers body neutrality to body positivity, we should say and that's fine. I'm not attached to either term, to be honest. CorinneI feel like I always end up more confused than than I started on these subjects.VirginiaWhere did you start? CorinneI think where I started was Katie Sturino neutrality. Like I just sort of felt like she's not my people or whatever, and then I do feel kind of bad for her getting all this criticism and and then also I just feel, mad that people have so much money. But what do we do? I don't know.VirginiaI think it's complicated by her decision to take the Weight Watchers money. I think if she was just taking GLP-1s, that's her own business. Her body changing is her own business, even though she makes content that really centers her body. I would be backing her, like, yeah, that's not for people to interrogate your body. It's still your body, it's not your business. And I think she's walking a really complicated line by deciding to then also monetize her weight loss, by hooking up with Weight Watchers. That feels different, because she's promoting Weight Watchers, which means she's selling weight loss to other people. She's suggesting that these GLP1s are a good option for other people. Maybe she hasn't directly said those words, but she has done the Oprah special. She's lent them her brand, which has a lot of credibility. Someone said to me, l"I go out of my way to buy Megababe, even though it costs a little more than comparable products, because I want to support Katie. I want to back her work." People invest in her because they believe in her mission. CorinneThat's true.VirginiaAnd now she has attached that mission to Weight Watchers, which is selling GLP1s and obviously selling weight loss. That's where it loses me a little for her to then be like, how dare people talk about my body? You're literally selling this new version of your body. You're showing it to us because you're marketing this thing. That's where it gets really murky. On the other hand, there's a video that I'll link to where she talks quite a lot about how the internal work we need to do on body acceptance has nothing to do with the scale, and she does seem to really want to make the point that she feels very detached from her own weight loss numbers. That's not why she's on it. And she makes the point that if you don't do your own internal work, you can lose tons of weight, and you would still be miserable with your body. The weight loss is not a solution for body image struggles. And I think that's valuable. And I think there are a lot of people who listen to her who need to hear that. So I think that's useful. And it then is confusing that she's like, "But also Weight Watchers is great now."CorinneOne through line in a lot of her content is that it does feel like sometimes the bigger picture is missing, like the intersectionality. I'm not a super close follower, so maybe I'm just missing it. But I feel like I'm not seeing her do a ton of advocacy for other fat people.VirginiaWell, she really stays in her lane, which is fashion. I don't hear her talking about healthcare access, don’t hear her talking about workplace discrimination, housing discrimination. Definitely not how anti-fatness intersects with racism and other marginalization. I don't think that's a focus of hers. And in some ways, that's fine, and in some ways that shows, I think, that she's not here for a deep dive into the world of fat liberation. Okay, so our big Burnt Toast question that we ask in all these episodes: Is Katie Sturino a diet?CorinneYes?VirginiaShe is selling a diet...by working with Weight Watchers. CorinneAnd I think just by embodying a very narrow line of fatness.VirginiaShe is selling a specific image of acceptable fatness.CorinneWhat's your take?VirginiaI started this episode wanting to be able to say no, in part just because everybody expects me to say yes.CorinneI know I think I'm usually on the no side. VirginiaYeah, you're usually the no and I'm usually the yes. But I think the more we talk about it, I think I'm landing there as well. But I also think she's the embodiment of this larger issue, which is: So much activism happens through social media now. And social media is a business. It is where people are building brands and making money and that means that activism gets infused with business in these really messy ways. I think plus size fashion influencers as a category have really not done a great job with this, because we have seen this trajectory of using body positivity rhetoric, even fat liberation rhetoric, and centering fat joy, celebrating you look so great in all the clothes... and then forgetting all of the other work that goes along with that, and then if they manage to achieve body changes, very quickly changing their tune about how important all of this is. I don't think she's Rosey Beeme, who's like, "Forget I ever liked fat people." I don't think she's that at all, but I do think she has not done the work of intersectionality here. CorinneYeah. It kind of feels like a like microcosm of everything that's happening in the US right now. VirginiaFor sure, for sure.CorinneIt's hard to not just extrapolate out. VirginiaSo are we saying I should not order the $460 jeans?CorinneI mean, don't ask me on this stuff, because I'm always like I do want to know. I do want to know if they're good jeans. VirginiaI do want to know. I am curious!  CorinneThis would make a good Patreon post. VirginiaI don't know that they would fit me. I have to look at the size chart and figure out if it's like a Gap 35 or if it's like a designer brand 35.CorinneI feel like it depends on if they have stretch or not. I bet they do. Katie seems like someone who would be going for stretch jeans.VirginiaShe does also do all those underwear tests where she checks whether things rolls down. That's valuable content. CorinneShe is brave. She's doing the videos that personally I would not want to do.VirginiaYou don't see me on my in my underwear on the Internet. I mean, I am on WikiFeet, but that was not my choice. That's as scandalous as I get. All right. Well, that was a very interesting conversation. Listeners, we want to hear what you think. Where do you land on this one? Have you followed her work? Have you felt, had mixed feelings about the Weight Watchers of it all? Do you have a totally different take? You can tell us in the comments. ButterVirginiaOkay, my Butter, I gave you a little preview. You can tell because we're on Zoom together, and you can see a different background behind me. But I moved my desk to a different part of my–actually, not even a different part of my office. I moved it from being parallel with the wall to being kitty corner between two walls. And I'm so much more comfortable in my office! And I realized I had my desk too close to the wall and it was not size inclusive. I was always bumping up against the wall behind me, and what a dumb thing to do in one's home office where you have total control. I had just decided the desk needed to face a certain way. I don't know what made me think it was necessary. A lot of it is the pressure on having a good Zoom background? But I've decided unless I'm doing TV or something, I'm going to keep my desk in a more comfortable place. CorinneI think that's really reasonable. VirginiaAnd it just made me think: How many other small ways do we accept our homes or our cars or whatever not being comfortable for our bodies? Like this cost $0. I literally slid the desk over to make more room. Make more room for yourselves!CorinneTotally, it's so funny how hard that stuff is to notice sometimes.VirginiaI hadn't even realized that's why I was uncomfortable. I do also need a new desk chair. If people have desk chair recs, I want those in the comments as well. I really would like to know because I'm in a crappy West Elm ancient desk chair. It's like oddly off balance. It's not good for my lower back. But I want one that's not a million dollars and not ugly.CorinneGood luck with that. I'm also really admiring your Cape Cod collarless sweatshirt.VirginiaOh, my cut collar sweatshirt. It's really cute, right? It was too tight in the neck. It's pretty tight in the waist. I was debating maybe cutting that somehow too I haven't quite figured out. Like, if I cut off the band at the bottom and it's just sort of like, boxy, would that be cute? CorinneI think it would be cute. I think it'd be more cropped. VirginiaCorinne, what's your Butter?CorinneMy Butter is a Butter that has been Buttered before. It's Taskmaster. I know it has been mentioned by other burnt toast guests, but you know what it is, or?Virginia it's an app where people come and do things for you?CorinneNo, nope. That's TaskRabbit.VirginiaI was like, why are you recommending the gig economy? CorinneAnd I've actually had very mixed results with TaskRabbit. Not recommending that one. Someone blew up a light bulb on my ceiling. That's a story for another day. TaskMaster is a British TV show, there's a comedian host, and then there are like five comedian guests, and they get assigned psychotic tasks. Like, I don't know, like, open this paper bag without using your arms or some seemingly impossible task, and then you watch them do it, and they get ranked and get points. The first episode that I watched, I was laughing so hard, I was crying, peeing my pants, like my abs were sore. And it is just very easy to watch, like, you just laugh and it's funny.VirginiaI don't usually do reality TV with my kiddo for our show, yeah, but this does sound like a fun one to watch with her. CorinneYeah, I will say there's like, some mild--they're comedians, so there's some mild innuendo and stuff.VirginiaI mean, I think I'm going to write a whole essay about this, but I love watching inappropriate television with my children. I think it opens up many great conversations.CorinneGreat. Well, you should definitely watch it, though it's on YouTube, and I have been paying for seasons. But someone actually in the Burnt Toast chat today was saying that they watch it for free on YouTube. So now I'm confused. I really am enjoying Taskmaster.VirginiaWell, that's delightful, yeah, all right. Well, this was a great episode. Excited to hear what everyone thinks about. What furniture are you moving, what tasks are you completing, tell us in the comments. The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with Lisa Sibbett, PhD. Lisa writes The Auntie Bulletin, a weekly newsletter about kinship, chosen family and community care. As a long time Auntie herself, Lisa often focuses on the experiences of people without children who are nevertheless, in her words, "cultivating childful lives." We’ve been talking a whole bunch about community on Burnt Toast lately, and Lisa reached out to have a conversation about the systems that get in the way of our community building efforts—specifically our culture's systemic isolation of the nuclear family. This is one of those conversations that isn't "classic Burnt Toast." But we're here to do fat liberation work—and so how we think about community matters here, because community is fundamental to any kind of advocacy work. Plus it brings us joy! And joy matters too. I super appreciate this conversation with Lisa, and I know you will too.Join our community! Today’s episode is free! But don't forget, if you were a Substack subscriber, you have until October 28 to claim your free access to our paid content. Check your email for your special gift link! Episode 216 TranscriptLisaSo my newsletter is about building kinship and community care. I live in cohousing, and I’ve been an auntie for many years to lots of different kids. I’ve always been really involved in the lives of other people’s children. And people who have lives like mine, we often don’t really have even language for describing what our experience is like. It’s sort of illegible to other people. Like, what’s your role? Why are you here?And all of this has really blossomed into work that’s definitely about loving and supporting families and other people’s children, but I also write about elder care and building relationships with elders and building community and cohousing. And I have a chronic illness, so I sometimes write about balancing self-care and community care. VirginiaI have been an instant convert to your work, because a lot of what you write really challenges me in really useful ways. You have really made me reckon with how much I have been siloed in the structure of my life. It’s funny because I actually grew up with a kind of accidental–it wasn’t quite cohousing. We had two separate houses. But I was the child of a very amicable divorce, and my four parents co-parented pretty fluidly. So I grew up with adults who were not my biological parents playing really important roles in my life. And I have gotten to the point where I’m realizing I want a version of that for my kids. And that maybe that is just a better model. So it's fascinating to consider what that can look like when not everybody has those very specific circumstances. LisaIt’s a dreamy setup, actually, to have amicably divorced parents and extra parents.VirginiaI’m super proud of all of my parents for making it work. My sister —who is my half sister from my dad’s second marriage—has a baby now. And my mom made the first birthday cake for them. There are a lot of beautiful things about blended families. When they work, they’re really amazing. And it always felt like we were doing something kind of weird, and other people didn’t quite understand our family. So I also relate to that piece of it. Because when you say "cohousing community," I think a lot of folks don’t really know what that term means. What does it look like, and how does it manifest in practice? What is daily life like in a cohousing community? LisaThere are different synonyms or near neighbor terms for cohousing. Another one is "intentional community." Back in the day, we might think about it as kind of a commune, although in the commune structure, people tended to actually pool their finances. I would say that cohousing is a much more kind of hybrid model between having your own space and being up in each other’s spaces and sharing all of the resources. Join the Burnt Toast community! So I really think of cohousing as coming frpm where so many dreamy social policies come from: Scandinavia. In Denmark and I think other countries in Northern Europe there is a lot of intentional urban planning around building shared, communal living spaces where there are things like community kitchens and shared outdoor space for lots of different residences. So that’s kind of the model that cohousing in the US tends to come from. And sometimes it’s people living together in a house. Sometimes it’s houses clustered together, or a shared apartment building. It can look a lot of different ways. The shared attribute is that you’re attempting to live in a more communal way and sharing a lot of your familial resources. In my cohousing community, there are just three households. It’s really, really small. We really lucked into it. My partner and I were displaced due to growth in our city, and needed to find a new place to live. And we had been talking with some friends for years about hoping to move into cohousing with them. But it’s very hard to actually make happen. It takes a lot of luck, especially in urban environments, but I think probably anywhere in the United States, because our policies and infrastructure are really not set up for it. So we were thinking about doing cohousing with our friends. They were going to build a backyard cottage. We were thinking about moving into the backyard cottage, but it was feeling a little bit too crowded. And then my partner was like, "Well, you know, the house next door is for sale." So it was really fortuitous, because the housing market was blowing up. Houses were being sold really, really fast, but there were some specific conditions around this particular house that made it possible for us to buy it. So we ended up buying a house next door to our friends. And then they also have a basement apartment and a backyard cottage. So there are people living in the basement apartment, and then, actually, the backyard cottage is an Airbnb right now, but it could potentially be expanded. So we have three households. One household has kids, two households don’t, and our backyard is completely merged. We eat meals together four nights a week or five nights a week. Typically, we take turns cooking for each other, and have these big communal meals, and which is just such a delight. And if your car breaks down, there’s always a car to borrow. We share all our garden tools, and we have sheds that we share. There are a lot of collective resources, and availability for rides to the airport ,and that kind of thing. VirginiaThere are just so many practical applications! LisaIt’s really delightful. Prior to moving into cohousing, we never hosted people at all. I was very averse to the idea of living in shared space. I was really worried about that. But because we have our own spaces and we have communal spaces, it sort of works for different people’s energies. And I certainly have become much more flexible and comfortable with having lots of people around. I’m no longer afraid of cooking for 12 people, you know? So it just makes it a lot easier to have a life where you can go in and out of your introversion phases and your social phases.VirginiaI’m sure because you’re around each other all the time, there’s not the same sense of "putting on your outgoing personality." Like for introverts, when we socialize, there’s a bit of a putting on that persona.LisaTotally. It’s much more like family. We’re kind of hanging around in our pajamas, and nobody’s cleaning their houses. VirginiaYou have that comfort level, which is hard to replicate. It’s hard even for people who are good friends, but haven’t sort of intentionally said, "We want this in our relationship. "There are all those pressures that kick in to have your house look a certain way. This is something I’ve been writing about —how the hosting perfectionism expectations are really high. Messy House Hosting! LisaAbsolutely, yeah. And it’s just such an impairment for us to have to live that way.VirginiaFor me, it took getting divorced to reckon with wanting to make some changes. I mean, in a lot of ways, it was just necessary. There were no longer two adults in my household. The moving parts of my life were just more. I suddenly realized I needed support. But it was so hard to get over those initial hurdles. Almost every other friend I’ve had who’s gotten divorced since says the same thing. Like, wait, I’m going to ask people for a ride for my child? It’s this huge stumbling block when, actually, that should have been how we’re all parenting and living. But it really shows how much marriage really isolates us. Or, a lot of marriages really isolate us. Our beliefs about the nuclear family really isolate us and condition us to feel like we have to handle it all by ourselves. So I would love to hear your thoughts on where does that come from? Why do we internalize that so much? LisaVirginia, you’ve been cultivating this wonderful metaphor about the various things that are diets. VirginiaMy life’s work is to tell everybody, "everything is a diet."LisaEverything’s a diet! And I feel like it’s such a powerful metaphor, and I think it really, really applies here. The nuclear family is such a diet. You have done, I think, the Lord’s work over the last couple of years, helping us conceptualize that metaphor around what does it mean to say something is a diet? And the way that I’m thinking of the Virginia Sole-Smith Model of Diet Culture is that there’s an oppressive and compulsory ideal that we’re all supposed to live up to. If we’re not living up to it, then we’re doing it wrong, and we need to be working harder. And there’s this rewarding of restriction, which, of course, then increases demands for consumer goods and forces us to buy things. Then, of course, it also doesn’t actually work, right? And all of that is coming out of a culture of capitalism and individualism that wants us to solve our problems by buying stuff. VirginiaI mean, I say all the time, Amazon Prime was my co-parent.LisaI think the nuclear family is just part of that whole system of individualism and consumerism that we’re supposed to be living in. It really benefits the free market for us all to be isolated in these little nuclear families, not pulling on shared resources, so we all have to buy our own resources and not being able to rely on community care, so we have to pay for all of the care that we get in life. And that is gross. That’s bad. We don’t like that. And you also have written, which I really appreciate, that it’s a very logical survival strategy to adhere to these ideals, especially the farther away you are from the social ideal. If you're marginalized in any way, the more trying to adhere to these ideals gives us cover.To me, that all just maps onto the nuclear family without any gaps. Going back to your specific question about why is it so hard to not feel like in an imposition when you’re asking for help: We’re just deeply, deeply, deeply conditioned to be self reliant within the unit of the family and not ask for help. Both you and I have interviewed the wonderful Jessica Slice in the last few months, and she has really helped me.Jessica wrote Unfit Parent. She’s a disabled mom, and she has really helped me think about how interdependence and asking for help is actually really stigmatized in our culture, and the kind of logical extension of that for disabled parents is that they get labeled unfit and their kids get taken away. But there’s a whole spectrum there of asking for help as a weakness, as being a loser, as being really deeply wrong, and we should never do it. And we’re just, like, deeply conditioned in that way. VirginiaSpeaking of community care: My 12-year-old was supposed to babysit for my friend’s daughter this afternoon, she has like a standing Tuesday gig. And my younger child was going to go along with her, to hang out, because she’s friends with the younger kiddo. I was going pick them up later. But then we heard this morning that this little friend has head lice. And that did make the community care fall apart! LisaOh no. It’s time to isolate!  VirginiaWhile I want us all to be together....LisaThere can be too much togetherness. You don’t want to shave your head.VirginiaThat said, though: It was a great example of community care, because that mom and I are texting with our other mom friends, talking about which lice lady you want to book to come deal with that, and figuring out who needs to get their head checked. So it was still a pooling of resources and support, just not quite the way we envisioned anyway. LisaIt always unfolds in different ways than we expect.VirginiaBut what you’re saying about the deeply held belief that we have to do it all, that we’re inconveniencing other people by having needs: That myth completely disguises the fact that actually, when you ask for help, you build your bonds with other people, right? It actually is a way of being more connected to people. People like to be asked for help, even if they can’t do it all the time. They want to feel useful and valuable and and you can offer an exchange. This sounds so silly, but in the beginning I was very aware, like, if I asked someone for a ride or a play date, like, how soon could I reciprocate to make sure that I was holding up my end of the bargain? And you do slowly start to drift away from needing that. It’s like, oh no, that’s the capitalism again, right? That’s making it all very transactional, but it’s hard to let go of that mindset. LisaYeah, and it just takes practice. I mean, I think that your example is so nice that just over time, you’ve kind of loosened up around it. It's almost like exposure therapy in asking for help. It doesn’t have to be this transactional transaction.VirginiaAnd I think you start to realize, the ways you can offer help that will work for you, because that’s another thing, right? Like, we have to manage our own bandwidth. You wrote recently that sometimes people who aren’t in the habit of doing this are afraid that now I’ll have to say yes to everything, or this is going to be this total overhaul of my life. And  No. You can say no, because you know you say yes often enough. So talk about that a little bit.Community building for introverts!LisaAbsolutely. I come at this from a perspective of living with chronic illness and disability where I really need to ration my energy. I’ve only been diagnosed in the last few years, and prior to that I just thought that I was lazy and weak, and I had a lot of really negative stories about my lack of capacity, and I’m still unlearning those. But over the past few years, I’ve been really experimenting with just recognizing what I am capable of giving and also recognizing that resting is a necessary part of the process of being able to give. If I don’t rest, I can’t give. And so actually, I’m doing something responsible and good for my community when I rest. You know, whatever that resting looks like for me or for other people, and it can look a lot of different ways. Some people rest by climbing rocks. I am certainly not one of those people, but...VirginiaThat is not my idea of relaxation. LisaBut, whatever, it takes all kinds, right? And I think that the systems of community care are so much more sustainable the more that we are showing up as our authentic selves. VirginiaYou talked about how you schedule rest for yourself. I’d love to hear more about that. LisaThat was an idea that I got from a really, really, really good therapist, by far the best therapist I’ve ever had, who herself lives with chronic illness and chronic pain. She initially suggested to me that whenever I travel--I have a hard time with travel--that, like, if I travel for three days, I need to book three days of rest. If I travel for two weeks, I need to book two weeks of rest. That’s a radical proposition to me, and one that I still am like, yeah, I don’t know if I can quite make that happen. But it did inspire me to think about what would work for me. And the reality of my life for many, many years, is that on a cycle of one to two weeks, I have at least one day where I just collapse and am incapable of doing anything. I can’t get out of bed. So this conversation with my therapist inspired me to go, you know, maybe I should just calendar a day of rest every week. Instead of having an uncontrolled crash, I can have a controlled crash, and then I’m making the decision ahead of time that I’m going to rest, rather than having to emergently rest when other people are relying on me for something, right? It just actually makes me more reliable to rest on a calendar.VirginiaAnd it honors that need. You’re not pretending that’s not going to happen or hoping you can skip by without it. You’re like, no, this is a real need. This is going to enable me to do the other things I want to do. So let’s just embrace that and make sure that’s planned for. It’s really, really smart.LisaWell, and you know, I’ll say that not having kids makes it much easier, of course. But I hope that there are ways that parents can schedule in little pieces of rest, even, of course, it’s probably not like an entire Saturday. But, the more that families lean into aunties and community care, the more that that space can be carved out. VirginiaSo let’s talk about the auntie piece. Is it just something, like, because these friends live next door and they had kids, you found yourself playing that role? How do you cultivate being an auntie? LisaThat’s a great question. For me it was kind of both always going to happen and a conscious choice. I grew up in a big family. I’m one of six kids. I spent a lot of time babysitting as a kid for both my siblings and all the kids in my town, and some of my siblings are a lot older than me, so I became an aunt in my teens, and so I’ve always had kids in my life. Really, I can’t think of a time when I didn’t have little ones around, which I think is a real benefit, not a lot of people have that kind of life. And I was raised by early childhood educators. My mom is a teacher. My grandma was a preschool teacher. My other grandma is a teacher. There are a lot of teachers in my family, and a lot of them worked with little kids, so there are a lot of resources available to me.But then I also did have to make some conscious choices. I think that one of the early things that happened for me was one of my best friends asked me to be her child’s godmother, and that kid is now 17. I know, she’s a teenager, oh my god. So that relationship in my 20s started to condition me to think: How do I really show up for a family? How do I really show up for a child that’s not my own child? And then when we moved into cohousing, which was in 2019 right before the pandemic started. We knew that we would be involving ourselves more in the life of a family. More on Lisa's childful lifeAt that time, my partner and I were hoping to have kids, and I ended up losing a lot of pregnancies. We decided to not become parents, but so we were initially envisioning sort of raising our kids together, right? And then when my partner and I decided not to have kids, one of the things that we sort of decided to pivot toward is like, well, we’re going to really invest in these kids who live in our community, which we already were, because the pandemic hit and we were a bubble. So many people know the story. All the adults are working full time. There’s no childcare. There are little kids. So it was really all hands on deck during that time, and it really pushed our community into a structure of lots and lots of interdependence around childcare and I spent a lot of time with these kids when they were really little, and that really cemented some bonds and forced us to make some very conscious decisions about how we want to be involved in each other’s lives. To the point that once you get very involved in the lives of kids, you can’t exit. Like, even if you wanted to. And so that changes your whole life trajectory. Moving to Mexico is off the table for me and my partner until these kids are at least out of the house, and that’s many years down the road, right? It would be harmful for us to separate from these kids at this point. So, there are conscious decisions and just sort of happenstance. And I think for anybody who’s interested in becoming an auntie or recruiting an auntie: Every situation is kind of different. But the piece about making conscious decisions is really important and requires sometimes scary conversations where we have to put ourselves out there and be vulnerable and take risks to let our loved ones know that we would like to form these kind of relationships. VirginiaAs someone on the side with the kids, my fear would be that I’m asking this huge favor, and like, oh my gosh, what an imposition. Because kids are chaos and these friends have a lovely, child-free life--I love my children, standard disclaimer. LisaKids are total chaos.VirginiaKids are always in whatever vortex of feelings and needs that that particular age and stage requires and asking someone to show up for that is, it’s big. It’s big.LisaWell, I definitely can’t speak for all childless people, definitely not. But there are a lot of aunties who read The Auntie Bulletin, several thousand people who read The Auntie Bulletin, and a lot of shared values there in our community. Something that I think is a common feature among people who are aunties, or who want to be aunties, is: We really recognize how much we benefit from being in relationship with families. There are a lot of people, myself included, who were not able to have children and really want to have a child-ful life. We would feel a loss if we didn’t have kids in our lives. And so this was something that I was reckoning with during the pandemic, when my partner and I were providing really a lot of childcare for another family. People would ask me: Do you feel like you’re getting taken advantage of? What are you getting in return? What I realized during that time was, I’m getting paid back tenfold, because I get to have these kids in my life for the rest of my life, but I don’t have to do the hard stuff. And that’s really important. Parenting, I don’t have to tell you, is very hard. As a person with chronic illness and disability at this point, I’m very glad that I don’t have kids, because I don’t think actually that I have the stamina. It's not about capacity for love, it’s just about straight up physical energy. And so I’m able to have the benefits as an auntie of being parent-adjacent, without the cost. So I’m the winner in that transaction. And I think a lot of aunties think that way.VirginiaWell, that’s really encouraging to hear. And I think, too, what you’re talking about is just having really good communication, so people can say what they can do and also have their boundaries honored when they have to set a limit. That’s key to any good relationship, so it would apply here too. Subscribe to Burnt Toast! LisaYeah, totally.VirginiaThinking about other barriers that come up. I’ve been reading, and I know you’re a fan too, of Katherine Goldstein, and she’s been writing such interesting critiques right now of how youth sports culture really derails families’ abilities to participate in community. That’s a whole fairly explosive topic, because people are really attached to their sports. So, I’ll save the specifics of that for some time I have Katherine on to discuss this. Are youth sports a diet? Yes, absolutely. And we are not a sports family, but when she wrote about it, I immediately recognized what she meant, because every fall I noticed that my kids' friends become much less available for play dates because it’s soccer season. And it’s like, waiting for when soccer practice will be over, so that so-and-so might come over. Suddenly, even as a non-sports family, I feel like I’m loosely revolving around these schedules. And to bring it back to your work: That is one aspect of parenting culture that is really feeding into this isolation problem and this lack of community problem. This way that we’ve decided parenting has to be so intensive and performative around sports makes people actually less available to their communities. So this is a long way of asking my question: Do you think what we’re really talking about here is a problem with the institution of marriage or the institution of parenting, or is it a bit of both?LisaThat’s so interesting. I do think that youth sports is, like, by far, the kind of biggest engine of this. But there also are families that are, like, deep, deep, deep into youth performing arts that would have the same kind of function.Virginia Dance is another big one. Competitions taking up every weekend.LisaOr youth orchestra, sometimes those can be incredibly consuming and also incredibly expensive. So going with the grain of the parents that are really hyper investing in their kids activities: They will find community in those places often, right? It's a sort of substitute community for the length of the season, or whatever. And then my question is: What’s the culture within those spaces? Is it like, hyper competitive? Is it about getting to the national championship? Is there a sense of community? Is there a sense of supporting kids around resilience when things don’t go the way that they want them to? The cultures within these spaces matter. And I think it just ties back to the way that the nuclear family is a diet. Because we are so deeply incentivized to be fearful in our culture and to treat our problems with money, goods, services, activities. And the fear, I think, for a lot of parents, is that their kids are going to not have a good and happy life. So then there’s what Annette Lareau, an educational researcher, calls concerted cultivation, particularly among more bourgeois middle class families of trying to schedule kids to the hilt, to make sure that they get every opportunity in life, and they can therefore succeed through every hurdle, and never have any adversity. Or that the adversity that they have is character building adversity in some way. And so I think that the hyper-involvement in kids activities does come from fear that’s motivated by capitalism. And is that an issue of parenting culture or marriage culture or capitalist culture or gender culture?VirginiaAll of it. Yes. I mean, one thing I think about, too, is how these activities create their own community. But it's a very homogenous community. The child-free folks aren't there, because it’s only soccer families or dance families or whatever. And you’re only going to get families who can afford to do the activity. So it's a self-selecting group. This is not to say I’m doing a great job cultivating a more diverse community for my kids. I live in a white majority town. This is hard for all of us. We’re not saying you all have to quit your sports! But if that’s your primary community, that is going to narrow things in a in a way that’s worth reflecting on. To bring this a little more fully into the Burnt Toast space, where we talk about diet as metaphor, but also diets specifically: One question I am asked a lot from the aunties in the Burnt Toast community, is, "How do I show up for the kids in my life that are not my own, I don’t get to make the parenting calls, but for whom I still want to model anti-diet values?" Maybe there’s stuff the parents are doing with food that's sending a weird message, or dieting in the home, that kind of thing. LisaWell, my sense is for myself—and I try to preach this gospel at The Auntie Bulletin— is that there are a lot of these moments for non-parents who are really deeply invested in the lives of kids, where it’s not our call. And it’s just a tricky terrain for aunties or any kind of allo-parental adults who are involved in the lives of kids who aren’t their own kids. I’m really fortunate that most of my friends are pretty on board with an anti-diet philosophy. The people who are close to me, where I’m really involved in feeding kids are on the same page. But it comes up in other ways, right? Where I might have a different perspective than the parents. My sense is really that aunties do need to follow parents' lead that it’s actually quite important to honor parents’ decision makings for their kids. And we can be sort of stealthy ninjas around how we disrupt cultural conditioning more broadly. So I’m not super close to their parents, but we’ve got some kids in our neighborhood who are buddies with the kids who are a big part of my life. And those neighborhood kids get a lot of diet conditioning at home. There’s this little girl, she’s in fourth grade, and she’s always telling me about her mom’s exercise and saying that she can't get fat and she can’t eat that popsicle and things like that, which is really heartbreaking to witness. And it’s exactly that kind of situation where it’s like, I’m invested in this as a just a member of our society, but I also care about these kids, and it’s just not my call, you know? So I can just say things like, "Well, I like my body. I feel good that I have a soft body and I’m going to have another brownie. It tastes really good." And just kind of speak from my own experience, where I’m not necessarily trying to argue with their parents, or trying to convince the kid of something different. I’m just modeling something different for them. And I think it’s totally fine to say, "In my house, you’re allowed to have another brownie if you want one!" VirginiaThat modeling is so powerful. Having one example in their life of someone doing it differently, can plant that seed and help them reframe, like, oh, okay, that’s not the only way to think about this conversation. That’s really useful.LisaAnd I think affirming difference whenever we have the opportunity to do so is important. When a kid comments on somebody’s body size or shape, you can just always say, "Isn’t it great how people are different? It’s so wonderful. There’s so much variety."VirginiaRelated to modeling and fostering anti-diet values: I think there is a way that this collective approach to living and being in community with each other runs quite counter to mainstream narratives around what is good behavior, what are social expectations, and which groups do we let take up space. I’m thinking about how the group of soccer moms is allowed to be a community that everyone has paid to participate in, while the Black neighborhood having a block party might have the cops called on them. So, talk a little bit about how you see collectivism as also an act of radicalism.LisaYeah, thank you for that question. It’s such a good one. A soccer community that is literally pay to play, where there are increasing tiers of elitenes—that is coded as very respectable in our society. Whereas a block party in a neighborhood of color is coded as disrespectable, unrespectable, disreputable. The music is loud and the people are being inconsiderate and their bodies are hanging out. There is all of this stigma around collectivism. I find for myself it’s very insidious and subtle, the ways that collectivism is stigmatized. I have a theoretical allegiance to collectivism, but it takes having to actually ask for help to notice our friction and our resistance to that. You were talking about that earlier in the follow up to your divorce. And I’ve had that experience, when I’ve needed to ask for help around my disability and chronic illness, and there’s all of a sudden this feeling of like, oh, I shouldn’t ask for help. Oh, there’s something wrong with that. And I think that there actually is a dotted line there between our resistance to asking for help and that feeling like we’re doing something bad and anti-Blackness, anti-brownness, anti-queerness. Community is so, so essential for queer folks who have had to find their own family, choose their own community for for for generations. There’s this kind of whiff of disreputability around collectivism, and these narratives around these kids are running wild and bodies are hanging out and the music’s too loud, and like, what’s going on there? What are they eating? VirginiaThere are so many ways we police it all.LisaIt’s all really, really policed. I think that’s really well put. So I think it's important to reclaim collectivism and reframe collectivism as legitimate, valuable, important, meaningful. Collectivism is something that a lot of people who live in dominant white communities have actually had taken from us through the medium of compulsory individualism. We need to reclaim it, and we need to not stigmatize it in all the communities that are around us and our neighbors.VirginiaMaybe instead, we should be looking at other communities as examples to emulate.LisaAs resources, absolutely. The disability community as well. VirginiaI think that’s really helpful, and I’m sure it gives folks a lot to think about, because it just continues to show up in so many small ways. Even as you were describing that I was thinking about the stress response that kicks in for me after I host a gathering, and my house is left in whatever state it’s left in. And it’s like, of course, the house is messy. You just had 12 people over, and there are seltzer cans laying around and throw pillows out of place. That’s because you lived in your house. You used it. But there’s this other part of my brain that’s so conditioned to be like, well, the house has to be tidy. And now it looks like you’re out of control. But it’s that kind of thing, that inner policing we do, that is very much related to this larger societal policing that we participate in.LisaAbsolutely, yeah.VirginiaAny last tips for folks who are like, okay, I want to be doing more of this. Particularly folks who want to connect with child free folks, or for child free folks who are listening, who want to connect with more families with kids. Any little nudges, baby steps people can take towards building this?LisaMy big nudge is to practice courage, because it’s scary to put yourself out there. You have to be vulnerable when you ask to build a relationship that’s deeper with people. And I think it actually is analogous, in some ways, to forming romantic relationships. You have to take some risks to say what you want, and that’s a scary thing to do, but there are lots and lots of people out there who want to be more involved in the lives of families. And there are lots and lots of families out there who need more support.VirginiaWhen you were talking about the pandemic, I was like, I would have killed for an auntie. LisaEvery family needs an auntie. Two adults I love, Rosie Spinks and Chloe Sladden who both have wonderful newsletters, have been writing about this lately, that even having two adults is just not enough to run a household in the structure of society that we live in. I think that that’s right, even if you’ve got a man who’s pulling his weight, to crack open a whole other can of worms.Why Fair Play didn't work for ChloeVirginiaWhich, yeah.LisaThey’re rare, but it does happen, and even then, it’s not enough. We actually need more adults to make communities run than we get with the way nuclear families are set up. So it’s a really worthy thing to seek out aunties, and for aunties to seek out families, and it’s just a little bit scary. And you also have to be persistent, because when we offer, parents will usually say no. Like they don’t believe us. They think their kids are too wild and whatever. So parents have to persist and and families need to persist in being welcoming. VirginiaI would also add on the parent side, as much as I appreciated what you said before about aunties have to respect parents having the final call on stuff: It’s also an exercise in us having to loosen up a little. Not everything is going to go exactly the way you want it to go. The bedtime might look differently, meals might happen differently, there might be more or less screens, and we have to be less attached to those metrics of parenting and touchstones of our parenting day, and realize that the benefits of our kids getting to be with other people, way outweighs whether or not they eat three cookies or whatever it is. LisaYeah, the more that we live in community, the more we all learn to be flexible.VirginiaWhich is really the work of my life, learning to be more flexible. Work on flexibility with us! 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈Butter LisaI feel like this is pretty nerdy, but this is my true self. The Substack algorithm fed me a newsletter yesterday that I’m so excited about. It’s about The Babysitters Club, which was, like, my favorite thing. VirginiaOh you shared this. Oh, my God, I keep thinking  about it. LisaAnd then yesterday, I ran into my childhood best friend on the beach. I’m visiting my parents right now. We read a lot of Babysitters Club together. So I’m going to tell you this guy named Andrew Knott, who I had not heard of before, but the algorithm fed it to me, wrote a post called A Classic Children’s Book Series Has Me Questioning My Parenting, and he’s reading The Babysitter’s Club together with his daughter, who I think isa tween. So for those who aren’t familiar with The Babysitters Club, where have you been? But major cultural touch point, most important books of my childhood. And, you know, very like auntie-formative books as well. Yeah, he has this really great argument about how the babysitters in these books did like, 100% of the parenting for a lot of families.VirginiaThey absolutely did!LisaIt’s like, this weirdly dystopian situation where the parents are just like, I guess we’re gonna go to Atlantic City for a couple days. Have fun kids.VirginiaYes, yes, they took two 12 year olds along to babysit a family of eight children on a beach vacation and the parents are nowhere to be found. For sure, Mary Anne and Stacey can handle all of the Pike children roaming around the Jersey Shore. It’ll be no problem.LisaYeah, I don’t know. It made me laugh so hard. I feel like I’m always on the lookout for, like, good takes on my favorite books of my childhood. And I’ve got to say this one is an absolute winner. VirginiaAnd intersects so well with your work. My Butter is that I was thinking about the sort of evolving work of being more in community. And a really lovely win I had recently over the summer —and it also relates to what you were saying about scheduling rest— is that a friend of mine and I now have a standing Wednesday morning date, where we meet to walk in a local garden. We've been doing it all summer — every Wednesday, 10am, we walk in these gardens for an hour. And they are now about to close for the season and we're figuring out a replacement place to walk. But when I say walk—I mean, like, stroll, maybe stop and watch bees on flowers for 10 minutes. We’re just talking and strolling and we are not wearing athletic clothing. I call it a workout because it mentally gave me permission to put it on my calendar—that’s my Wednesday workout. But it is not cardio in any way. We’re just strolling around, chatting and and it’s just such a nice touch point. And I’m really proud of myself for making time for that connection with someone. And she’s a good friend, but prior to doing that, I could go three weeks without seeing her easily. And now we always see each other once a week, and we have invited other friends to join us. And the really funny thing, or really, thecool thing was one day, I went and did the walk with her, and then I had a doctor’s appointment. And historically, in the last year or two, my blood pressure has been inching up a little bit. It’s been a smidge high. So I was getting nervous for the blood pressure reading. And my blood pressure was normal to low! LisaOh my gosh. Gosh, because you’re looking at bees with your friend.VirginiaI texted her, I was like, I truly think we’re lowering my blood pressure. LisaYeah, it’s not weight loss. It’s looking at bees, on a schedule with your friends.VirginiaIt’s having a weekly appointment to watch the bees with your friend. Well, thank you, Lisa. This was so much fun. Such a great conversation. Tell folks where we can find you and how we can support your work. LisaYeah, thank you so much for having me. Virginia. I’m at The Auntie Bulletin, which is the auntie.substack.com and that’s the main thing I’m working on right now, so I hope people will come check it out. Thank you so much for having me.VirginiaIt’s really fantastic. And there’s just, if any part of this conversation has resonated, there’s like, so much more over on The Auntie Bulletin. So folks need to go check it out. 🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Subscribe!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with Laura Birek. You probably know Laura as co-host of The Big Fat Positive Podcast, but today she’s here to talk about her new book, co authored with Gia Gambaro Blount. It’s called Good to Go: A Fresh Take on Potty Training for Today's Intentional Parent.I'm years past potty training (thank God!!), but I honestly remember the pain of it better than childbirth. This is often a very fraught parenting milestone. And as with all things parenting: That means we encounter a ton of societal expectations and pressures around how to get potty training right, which makes it all even harder. If you, too, have been a victim of that viral three day potty training method, you'll want to hear this conversation. Laura has amazing advice about how to recover and do it differently. But even if you’re child-free or years out from this experience: What we’re really talking about today is how perfectionism and performative parenting can make life harder for parents (especially moms!) and really get in the way of kids’ body autonomy. And of course, promoting body autonomy is core to the work we do here on Burnt Toast.Today’s episode is free! But don't forget, if you were a Substack subscriber, you have until October 28 to claim your free access to our paid content. Check your email for your special gift link! And drop any questions or concerns here.PS. You can take 10 percent off Good to Go or any book we talk about on the podcast, if you order it from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, along with a copy of Fat Talk! (This also applies if you’ve previously bought Fat Talk from them. Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)Episode 215 TranscriptLauraI am the co-author of a new potty training book that just came out called Good to Go: A Fresh Take on Potty Training for Today's Intentional Parent. You can find it everywhere. And then I am also the co-host of a long running parenting and pregnancy podcast called The Big Fat Positive Podcast. I’ve been doing that for over seven years now. Every week for seven years! VirginiaYou are an OG podcaster! I love the podcast. I’ve been on the podcast. But today we are going to talk about Good to Go. Because you reached out to me and you said, "Potty training culture is such a thing. Can we talk about it?" And I am not going to share my own children’s stories. But I’m going to say, yeah, it is such a thing. And it really messes with our heads. And of course, my work is all about investigating cultural messages that mess with our heads, aka diet culture. So yes, let’s talk about potty training diet culture today. You kick off the book with the story of how you tried and failed to train your older kiddo, who you call Augie in the book. And the impetus was that you read the super popular three day potty training book that I think most of our listeners who have potty trained a child have encountered. Why did the idea that you could magically change potty train your child in three days go so wrong?LauraSo we kind of fell into that new parent trap of "This kid’s a genius!" He was hitting all his milestones early. He was such a talker. And I had been given that very, very popular three day potty training method that shall not be named. And I read it and really took it as gospel. And in the book, there were all these signs of readiness. And I was like, check, check, check, for Augie. It was stuff like, is he interested in the potty? And I thought, oh, this kid is ready, according to this book. And there were extenuating circumstances--namely, the pandemic. We were deep in the pandemic. We were also stuck indoors because there was a wildfire nearby, so we weren’t even able to go outside. That’s Southern California life for you. And I was in my second trimester with my second pregnancy. So all of these things came together to be like, well, you know, what the hell? Let’s give it a try. VirginiaWe’re trapped indoors anyways. LauraWe’re trapped indoors. Let’s spend three days naked and see what happens. And so the very first sentence of our book is: "I’m a failure at potty training." Which is a very weird way to start a potty training book.VirginiaBut so relatable. LauraOh, I hope it’s relatable! Because the thing is, we thought we were a success at the very beginning. Right after those three days, he was mostly making it to the potty. We were like, okay, we can take away diapers. But what we didn’t realize is that we had just entered into a state of constant vigilance with him. We were constantly reminding him to go, and we were always nervous about going anywhere and doing anything with him, like even just going to the park. We never got over the stress level, right? My mom would say, "He wasn’t potty trained. You were potty trained."VirginiaYou were trying to take him to the potty obsessively and monitor all the signs.LauraExactly, exactly. And the other thing was, I had this idea that having two kids in diapers was going to be hard. I don’t know where I got this idea! Everyone is like oh, you can’t have two kids in diapers.VirginiaIt feels like a really common cultural message. I’ve heard a lot of friends say that, who have kids close in age. "Oh we have got to get her out of diapers before the next one comes!" LauraActually having two kids in diapers is way more convenient than one who’s in a very early stage of potty training and a newborn! That was our first mistake. But we just continued to deal with this stress around going places. And at some point, I ended up having the baby. Augie was still out of diapers, but he was having accidents. In our book, we call them misses, but this author called them accidents, so we’ll stick with accidents. It’s the more familiar term. And he was having accidents all the time, and I was really stressed out about it. Then I take my new baby, we call him Sebastian, to a local place called the Family Room, which is where I did mommy and me classes, and then toddler and me classes with my now co-author, Gia Gambaro Blount. I brought him for a lactation support group. But Gia happened to be there, and I descended upon Gia. I was like, "Gia, I need your help. Augie is having all these problems with potty training. I don’t know what to do." And she looked at me, and said, "Can I ask you something? When you decided to potty train him, did you tell him it was going to happen?" And I was like, "No." Because the book specifically tells you you’re not supposed to do that. VirginiaYou just spring it on them.LauraThe book tells you, do not even have the little potties out, because it will confuse their little brains. And I didn’t know anything about potty training at the time, so I was like, "Sure, that sounds legit. Whatever." So Gia was like, "You need to go back and ask him how he’s feeling about this." So I go back and I look Augie in the eyes. I’m like, "Hey baby. I know we’ve been having a lot of accidents. Do you think you want to go back to diapers for a little bit?" And he was like, "Yes!" Instantly. "Yes, yes, yes, I want to go back to diapers!" And I was shocked by that, because I thought he was going to be like, "No, I’m a big boy!" VirginiaHe was like, no, I’m really not ready for that. LauraAnd so we went back to diapers, which, by the way, in the 3 day method is a big no no. Like, huge regression. And there was also this strict thing about having to potty train between 18 and 30 months, and if you don’t do it between those times, you’ve ruined them forever. At least, that’s that’s the takeaway I had.VirginiaAnd if you could do it beforehand, even better.LauraYes! So I was really worried about all that. But the minute we put him back in diapers, the stress went away. And you know, TL/DR, he is not ruined forever. We ended up actually potty training him using Gia’s help just after he turned three. VirginiaEverything in your story is so deeply relatable. Because I think those first years of parenting are such chaos. And this is certainly not all moms... but there’s a certain kind of mom who is vulnerable to this message of "control as much of it as you can." Have the feeding schedules, track the ins and outs when they’re newborns. There is a need to have a lot of information and structure around what is otherwise just this sea of "when will we ever sleep again? When will anything happen?" That makes us really vulnerable to messages like "You want to achieve this milestone by a certain age." Or "You want to achieve this milestone before you have another baby." There is this idea that we somehow get a gold star if we get it done at a certain point. And now that I have kids who are way, way older, and I’m just like, "I don’t even remember when it all happened." You don’t look at a bunch of seventh graders, and think, "Well, I can tell  you didn’t potty train till 3.5." LauraAnd I think that I am one of those moms who is totally susceptible to that. We had a sleep schedule with my first. And I think part of it is that I had my kids later in life, I already had a career. And when you have kids, any control you have over your days, over your schedule, over your life, just flies out the window. So I think I was grasping at anything that would give me a sense of control in my life. And rightfully so! So I’m not saying that those things don’t help people —I actually do think some of the sleep schedule stuff helped us. Or we got lucky, and that just happened to align with my kid's personality.VirginiaYou had a baby who was like, "Yes, fine, we’ll do a schedule."LauraExactly. I don’t know. There’s no way to know, but it did give me a sense of control. The trap with that is, say you have a good experience, like I did with sleep training , and then you go to potty training and it’s not as successful. Suddenly you think it’s some kind of referendum on your own parenting. VirginiaYes! LauraHaving a second kid is really helpful — or third or fourth, I imagine, even more— but having more than one kid has really helped me realize that so much of parenting is luck of the draw with your kid’s personality and temperament and all that stuff. But with your first, it can feel like such pressure and such responsibility for you to be the person who figures it all out. When it turns out that a lot of things are just not figure out-able, or need time or a different approach, or you need to be flexible.VirginiaSocial media has not helped in all of this, for sure. I mean, not that everybody documents their kids potty training on social media, but it’s of a piece with needing to celebrate milestones in this public way, I think.LauraHopefully one of the gifts that we give with our book is this concept that potty training is not a light switch. It’s not a binary. You’re not either potty trained or not in some clear crossing the finish line manner. Instead, we describe it as a continuum in terms of how much parental involvement is required. So at the very, very beginning, those first days, weeks, even months, you’re in the highly involved phase, where you are doing a lot of reminding and you’re doing a lot of cleaning up of pee on floor. You’re doing a lot of thinking about it. Then you go into the occasionally involved phase, which is fewer accidents, they know they need to go, but you still have to wipe their butts until kindergarten, at least usually. That’s something that the other books don’t really tell you. They frame it as, "oh, you’re done after three days." But these kids need help! There are just some physiological reasons why little kids have trouble wiping their own butts. Their heads are huge! Their proportions are all off. Some kids physically cannot reach their butts. But no one’s telling you that. So our goal in the book is to try to shorten the highly involved phase so that you’re in the occasionally involved phase quicker, and then finally you'll get to the point where you’re rarely involved. We say that there’s some day in the future where you won’t know the last time your kid went to the bathroom. But that’s years away. I mean, in my house, it’s still getting announced! So if you can think of it as the spectrum of where you’re in this process, then you can be a little bit less like, oh, okay, so and so just posted "oh, my two year old potty trained in one weekend." You can know in your head: Okay, yeah, that just means they’re not wearing diapers on a daily basis, right? But caregivers are still involved.VirginiaYeah, it doesn’t mean the two year old is like, "Okay, mom, I’ll be back in a minute!"LauraPeople will come out of the woodwork and be like, "My two year old self potty trained, they won’t let me be involved. They do everything!" And it’s like, I am so happy for you. But that is not the majority of kids and we need to just understand that’s not an expectation we should have.VirginiaI also appreciate understanding the stages more, and the fact that you and Gia really emphasized that this means you can decide readiness, not just based on your kid. So: Are they achieving these certain milestones? Are they checking these boxes? But also: Consider yourself. Are you, the parent, ready? Maybe when you’re about to have a newborn, you don’t want to be in the highly involved potty training phase. If you don’t think you can get all the way to "less involved" by the time the baby comes, maybe put this on hold for a while. And that just gives us so much more permission to center our own needs in the process. And to actually have needs, which is another thing the three day discourse really leaves out. The idea that you as the parent would have any other things going on other than potty training.LauraMost of the 3 day experts say you cannot leave the house for three days. Okay, that’s great for a stay at home parent who has no other kids. But what happens when you have an older kid that needs to go to soccer practice? What happens if you have a prescription you need to pick up from the pharmacy?VirginiaOr you’re a single parent.LauraOr a single parent doing it all. Exactly.We were in a pandemic, in a wildfire, and that’s why I was like, okay, we can stay home for three days. There has been no other time in our lives we’ve been able to stay inside for three days. Those unrealistic expectations really set you up for failure. And then on top of that, the message in all these other methods is, "If your child is still having issues after the three days, you must have done something wrong. You must have not followed my method perfectly."That’s with so much of parenting, right? But no, every kid is going to react differently and have a different timeline. And also, sometimes prescriptions need to be picked up at the pharmacy. VirginiaMy listeners frequently get a little annoyed when I say everything is a diet. But: A system that tells you that if it didn’t work, it’s because you didn’t do it right is 100 percent classic diet culture. It’s classic like, well, if only you’d followed it, if only you’d have better discipline... as opposed to: This just isn’t a match for what you’re trying to do right now. This isn’t the way for you. Laura And it’s trying to police this thing that everyone has to do, too. I think that’s just such an interesting analog to diet culture as well. We all have to eat. I know you’ve written about this, right? Even the most restrictive diet is going to have to provide some food, because you will die. And we all have to eliminate our waste and, save children with medical issues that may prevent them from potty training, almost all of us are going to end up having to learn to use a toilet at some point. It’s this thing we all have to do. And yet, we’re being told there’s this one right way to do it. But there are also at least five different people saying their way is the one right way. What gets more diet-y than that?VirginiaAnother thing I really appreciated is what Gia emphasizes in terms of assessing your child’s readiness. Because it's not just the cognitive signs, like, do they have the language? Are they looking at the potty and interested or following you into the bathroom? She also talks about this concept of interoception, which is something that comes up a lot when we talk about helping kids be intuitive eaters. So again, there are these parallels between food and potty stuff. Can you explain how understanding where a child is with their interoception development can help you prepare for a more intuitive approach to potty training?LauraWe talk about the three realms of readiness: There are the cognitive signs, the social-emotional signs and the physical signs. But we further split those up into two categories. Some of these things are teachable signs, and then there are some unteachable things that are just developmental. A really good example of that is in the cognitive signs of readiness. An unteachable sign is whether your child is curious about you going to the potty, right? That is often listed as a sign of readiness, like, oh, your child wants to know what you’re doing. Why are you sitting on the potty? Wants to come be with you in the bathroom. You can’t teach that level of interest, right? And if you tried it would be weird. And interoception is another unteachable sign. There’s nothing we can do to force your child to have more awareness of what’s going on in their body. That’s a thing we’re kind of born with that is on another spectrum. Some people are incredibly sensitive. I’m a person who’s been accused of being a hypochondriac, and I think part of that is I have heightened interoception. I feel every ache and pain. I always felt when I ovulated, for example. I also heard once that only some people can tell when their heart’s beating. That’s just a sign that some people have a more sensitive sense of interoception versus others, right? We can’t teach it. It’s just the way your kid is. What we can teach is supporting their interpretation of their interoception. An example that’s not potty training related is if your child gets goosebumps, you can help them identify: Do you have goosebumps because you’re feeling cold, or do you have goosebumps because you’re scared? Goosebumps have a feeling associated with them, and you can’t teach them how to feel that. But what you can do is try to connect language to the feeling. And that’s hard. That is the hard work of potty training, honestly. And so Gia and I identified something we called the universal potty sequence, just to keep it short in our brain, which is, when we are as adults, go to the bathroom. We say we’re going to the bathroom. We think of it as one step, but in reality, it’s up to nine steps. We identified nine steps. But you know, it’s a bunch of different steps that the kids have to learn. It’s all new for them, right? So the first step is feeling. The sensation is that interoception, every step after that is kind of mechanical, right? Like you navigate to the potty, then you pull down your pants, then you sit on the potty, then you eliminate, then you flush, blah, blah, right? So we have this thing we call the rehearsal period. That’s about two weeks ish--again, everything is flexible--before you actually plan to take away diapers, where you teach everything on the universal potty sequence, all those steps, all those new things, all those new mechanics for them. Except step one: Feel the sensation. That one we are leaving to when you take away diapers. The point is when kids are thrown into "we’re taking away diapers. We’re taking away this thing that you’ve worn your entire life!" this way, the only thing they have to learn is how to connect the sensation to the need to go. Everything else isn’t brand new, so the other eight steps aren't so overwhelming. All we’re focusing on is interoception, and so that’s what we’re trying to really center in our method to help our kids connect the dots. And that’s why we also don’t forbid prompting. Some kids are not going to have a strong sensation, and you’re going to need to sometimes, in retrospect, be like, "hmm, there’s pee on the floor now, you you had a miss." And we say miss, because we don’t want there to be shame involved, right? We don’t want to say, oh, it’s an accident. It’s not really an accident. They just didn’t get to the potty in time, right? or they didn’t even think to try to go. So we say, "Oh, you had a miss. Do you remember what it felt like before it came out? Next time we feel that feeling, let’s see if we can catch it before we go." So we’re working on that. And some kids need that extra support. Honestly, my six year old still likes to get hyper focused, and so he does need to get prompted to this day. And no one would say, oh, that six year old’s not potty trained. He’s definitely potty trained at school. He’s fine, but sometimes we just need to help him connect. I mean, how many adults do you know who wait till the last second go to the bathroom?VirginiaThat’s me, every work day. What I love about this is how you’re really centering kids’ body autonomy in this process. And in way that is so counter to how I’ve seen body training explained before. This feels like such a huge shift. I mean, I remember when I was doing it with my own kids, feeling like, "the way I’m doing this doesn’t feel aligned with the way I’m thinking about feeding them," for example. When I’m feeding kids, I’m really focused on the power of their ability to say no to a food they don’t like, and why that’s important. And the importance of not pushing them past their fullness cues and helping them notice hunger cues. Their body autonomy is the center of it. And potty training is this thing where because we’re so focused on getting it done, because we’ve got all this pressure on it, it’s like... suddenly they don’t have body autonomy in the process at all. And that feels really troubling.LauraIt does. I mean, I came to that same revelation. It was part of what allowed me to feel okay with putting Augie back in diapers, VirginiaYeah, because you gave him his power back. LauraExactly and I realized this exact same thing you said. I am so dedicated to respectful parenting. I’m a Virginia Sole-Smith fan girl! Like I read all your books, and I'm offering foods without judgment, and all of that stuff. And yet, in this one realm, I fell into the trap of not just not centering his body autonomy, I like full on ignored it. I mean, it sounds awful, but I really did violate his own body autonomy. I forced him to do things he wasn’t ready for. And I do feel bad about it to this day. And it’s not an inconsequential thing, right? Like, people say, No one’s going to college still, still using a diaper. Everyone eventually learns to potty. And it’s true. But there is a lot of shame around using the bathroom. There was some Vice article that just came out, which said, like, 83 percent of Gen Zers have bathroom anxiety. And a bunch of them want to quit because of it. They don’t want to have a job because they’re afraid of using the bathroom. VirginiaI’m an old millennial, but I have some women’s magazine bathroom trauma. I understand what they’re saying. It’s a stressful place. LauraAnd I’m not saying I enjoy pooping in a public bathroom either! But there are consequences, and not just about anxiety. There are actual physical consequences to involving shame in the potty training process. There's encopresis, which is a specific type of constipation and a really big problem that is so hard to solve. I’ve heard from so many parents whose children have it. It's a form of chronic constipation, and what happens is you’re so constipated that liquid poop escapes around the sides of the impacted stool, and kids can’t tell anymore that they have to poop because their colon is so enlarged. And this is a much more common problem than people realize, and it’s really hard to solve once it’s started. It's something you really want to get ahead of. And that’s the other reason we say if your child is refusing to poop in the potty, give them a diaper. You need to get that poop out one way or another, and it’s not a judgment on whether you’ve been able to potty train them or not. We’re looking at the long game here. We’re trying to create a child who doesn’t have long term problems that require a ton of medical intervention. What’s worse, having to go to a GI doctor for the next five years or just giving them a diaper to poop in at the end of the day?VirginiaAnd giving them another month or six months in diapers, and then you try again. LauraIt goes back to the perfectionism, though. Like, when you put it that way, you’re like, yeah, of course, I’ll give them a diaper. But if you’ve been told no, they’re going to be confused. It’s failure. That's harder. It's not failure. These kids are way smarter than most people give them credit for, like, they will know the difference. They’re not going to be confused about what’s going on.VirginiaI think another piece of this body autonomy conversation is night training. I really love that Gia does not endorse night training. I mean, I have heard of parents setting alarms to wake toddlers up to pee at 11pm so that they could say they were night trained. Just tell us why this is so unnecessary.LauraNight training is absolutely unnecessary. We did a ton of research to make sure we were right. Night training is just not effective. It’s really a one hundred percent developmental shift that happens in your child’s brain and their body. When they are ready, they will be night trained. And there’s nothing you can do to force it. One in 6 kids at age six still wet the bed at night. At age seven, that goes down to one in 10. But that’s still a lot of kids! One in 10 kids in your second grade class are still wetting the bed at night. And that’s fine and developmentally normal. And so if we know that, if we can normalize that, it may lessen the pressure for night training. There’s a scientific term for waking them at night to sit them on the potty. They call it lifting. And the research shows that lifting has no measurable outcomes like lifting. People who practice lifting had no better results than people who just let their kids sleep. And I would imagine—this is just my hypothesis—that those parents are crabby because they have to wake up in the middle of the night to do it. And their kids are also probably crabby for having gotten woken up, even if they’re half awake, right? So we are firmly in the belief that you don’t have to do night training. That said, we tell you when to start looking for signs that it's time to take away night time diapers and how to do it. And also what to do when your kid is getting up to pee in the middle of the night, and that becomes a problem. So if your child is waking up in the middle of the night every night to go pee — we get into how to address that, what the root causes might be, and how to how to deal with that when the time comes. But we say do not do night training at the same time as daytime training. Your kids will likely just night train themselves during or after the process. One in 10 will take past age seven.VirginiaThe last thing I want to hit on is the stuff piece of potty training. There’s a lot marketed to us, a lot of gear, different types of potties, all of that. And I would love to hear your take on what is actually useful and what is just marketing, and you can probably skip. LauraLike anything parenting-related, mom-related specifically, there are going to be people trying to sell you a bunch of stuff. But I mean, basically you need a pot to piss in, right? Like, that is the bare bones of what you need. A lot of people ask us about the floor potties: Do I really need a floor potty? A lot of people find them kind of gross, unsightly. I get it. You don’t want to have a little toilet in your living room. Yeah, I didn’t either. But if you buy nothing else, we recommend having a floor potty. And you don't have to buy them — there are going to be 20 parents in your neighborhood who are desperate to get these out of their basements! You can get over the fact that it was used by another kid, just get some Clorox. You know, you’re fine. You don’t have to spend actual money on any of this stuff, because it is a thing that you only need for a narrow window of time. So we recommend, at the bare minimum, having a floor potty for this reason: There are three types of awareness when it comes to your internal body awareness. There’s sensation awareness, which is, oh, I have to go. The action awareness is: Is it pee or poop? And then there’s urgency awareness, which is like, the real key to all of this. Urgency awareness is how much lead time you have between noticing the feeling and getting to a toilet. And when you are first potty training, in the first days and weeks, that urgency awareness window is seconds. We’re talking like five seconds between when a kid recognizes and when they go. Because of that, we want to give them as many opportunities to have a win as possible, right? Like, you don’t want to clean up pee off your floor, and you want your kid to feel successful, right? The more chances they have to successfully make it to the potty, the better everyone’s going to feel, and the like, quicker the process is going to go. And sometimes the difference between a win and a miss is the time it takes to walk from the living room to the bathroom.In addition, there are a lot of things about the big potty that scare kids or just are really, really challenging for kids. It’s high up, so you have to have a step stool or something. Usually you have to have some kind of insert for the seat. So like, if you’re like, oh, I don’t want to buy a floor potty, you’re still having to buy a step stool and a seat insert. So that’s two things versus the one floor potty. And kids can be scared of the balancing being high up. They can be scared of the plopping, like the poop falling all the way into the bowl. We have some techniques to help them get over that, but there are just more barriers to entry for most kids to use the adult potty at the get-go. Obviously, you can work towards that. And I always hear from people like, well, my kid wouldn’t even go in the small potty. It’s like, okay, there you go. Now, you know. All the more reason to get one from some other parent. If you have a really big house, two floor potties could be helpful so you don’t have to be carrying them around everywhere you go. I mean the amount of time I’ve spent in my life carrying around a little floor potty full of pee. It’s just so gross. It’s such a glamorous life we live as parents. And then the only other thing that I’d say is really a good buy if you're in the car a lot, is a travel potty.VirginiaOne hundred percent. LauraThere are so many great ones now. I have the Oxo one, it like, folds up into this flat little package. And you can either pop the legs vertical, so that you put a little plastic bag in that has a little absorbent pad so that you can sit on the potty in the backseat of the car or the trunk or whatever. But it also folds out, so it can be a little seat to use in public bathrooms. And that’s honestly really great. Public bathrooms are a whole other topic that we actually talk a lot about in the book. But one major thing is that their butts are too small. They just so you either have to hold them, and it’s a whole thing, or you can have this travel potty with you, which gives them a seat that’s their size and makes it more accessible. ButterVirginiaWell, this was fantastic. Speaking of stuff, though, it does not have to be stuff. Laura, do you want to give us some Butter today?LauraI do. Okay, so I went straight from saying you don’t need to buy things for potty training, and then I’m going to tell you about this thing that I think you should buy for potty training. But I have to tell you about this because I have been giving these out to my friends left and right. Anytime I tell someone about it, they they’re like their mind is blown. They’ve never heard of it before, and so I feel like I have to share it, because it’s something that’s been so helpful for us, and that is a disposable travel urinal. Have you ever heard of these? VirginiaI do not have children with penises, so no.LauraWell, guess what? It works for children with vulvas, too. VirginiaWow. Okay!LauraSo it’s this universal spout. It’s basically this sort of oval shaped spout that, if you have a penis, you point this the top part up, and if you have a vulva, you point it down, just so it catches the pee. And it’s just a plastic bag, kind of like an emesis bag, but the difference is there’s a little zip lock top, so you can seal it off, and there’s like a gel pad at the bottom that’s dry when you get it, but it absorbs liquid, kind of like what’s inside of a diaper, right? And you can it folds up into this tiny little package that you can have in your purse. It’s saved us so many times when you are places where you just can’t get to a bathroom quickly, and they really have to pee. Because, I don’t know about your kids, but no matter how many times I tell them, like we’re leaving the park, let’s go to the bathroom. Yeah, no, I don’t have to go. And then five minutes into the drive home, I have to pee. I have to pee.And while I do have two children with penises, I don’t usually like to have them pee on random people’s yards, right? So really helps to be able to have this thing in the car. I will tell you the most clutch moment, which hopefully doesn’t get me canceled, which is we were in line. My six year old and I were in line for the Guardians of the Galaxy breakout ride at Disney California Adventure. And it was an hour long line. And I was shocked that he was focused and able to stay in that line the whole time. But we were almost to the boarding area, and he’s like, Mommy I have to pee and it was just me and him. I couldn’t send him with his dad or anything. And this line is like a maze, you know how Disney does it’s like they create this whole experience. But I didn’t know how to get out in any quick way, even if they would have led us back in the line, I didn’t know how to get out. And it was dark in there, all moody, and so it was scary. And I was like, okay, baby, just turn around. So I got him face away from the crowd, and he peed in the bag, and there was a trash can right there. And it saved us! so I highly recommend it. I have one in my purse at all times, just in case. I have yet to use it for myself, but it is apparently used by adults. Okay, yeah, yeah, absolutely so. And they, I don’t have a brand recommendation. There’s like 500 different brands, so just look up disposable urinal bags. VirginiaWell, my Butter is not something you can pee in, but It is body adjacent in thinking about this episode, and thinking back to earlier parenting years, because, as I said, I’m like, pretty well out of the stage. Now, I was remembering how much one of our favorite picture books at that time was Bodies Are Cool by Tyler Feder. LauraI love that book. VirginiaIt’s incredible. It should be in every parent’s library. It’s a go-to baby shower gift for me forever, because it’s just an amazing celebration of body diversity, which is all of Tyler’s work. So that’s a Butter I’ve given before, but just to re-up. But recently, a friend of mine gave me a print of Tyler’s of this beautiful, fat mermaid. I’ll put a photo of it in the show notes. And I actually hung it up by my bathroom, because our bathroom is near where our pool is. So now we have a lot of middle school girls changing into swimsuits all the time. And I am slowly making this bathroom my body celebration shrine. So I have three Tyler illustrations in that space. And I’m just adding to this little collection of body positive art so that when teenage girls are in there changing into swimsuits and having the feelings they can look around and be like, Oh, right. Bodies are cool. So, another way to think about your bathroom as a place to affirm that body autonomy matters. LauraYeah, it really does. VirginiaWell, this was a delight. Laura, thank you so much for joining us. Tell folks where we can follow you, how we can support your work.LauraYes. So as I said many times, my book Good to Go: A Fresh Take on Potty Training for Today's Intentional Parent is out in the US and Canada, wherever you buy your books. There’s also an e-book version you can find. We are hoping to get an audiobook going soon. And we also have a website that you can find us at and then listen to my podcast. We have great conversations all the time. We had Virginia on for two episodes when Fat Talk came out and one of our favorite episodes ever. And we are Big Fat Positive a pregnancy and parenting journey.VirginiaAmazing. Thank you so much for being here. LauraThanks for having me. I love talking to you.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, here with our first-ever Patreon podcast episode! We're going to chat about: ⭐️ How we're feeling about the BIG MOVE. ⭐️ How to think about clothes after a significant size change. What even IS your style now?! ⭐️Figuring out fall uniforms! ⭐️ Diet culture in disaster prep. ⭐️ The one thing we wish straight-sized style bloggers would do differently. And so much more! To hear the full conversation, you'll need to be a paid subscriber. Reminder: Substack subscribers, make sure to redeem your gift to read this newsletter for FREE!🧈 🧈 🧈 Check your email for your gift link.🧈 🧈 🧈As we move from Substack to Patreon, there are just a few quick (but important!) steps you’ll need to take to keep accessing the member-only podcast episodes on your favorite podcast app.👉 Follow the detailed instructions below to stay connected!This episode contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 214 TranscriptCorinne This is the episode you’ve been waiting for! We’re going to reveal our big news.VirginiaBurnt Toast and Big Undies have moved to Patreon! CorinneWe’re going to get into the how and the why, and then we’re going to answer some pretty juicy listener questions.VirginiaThis is very exciting. It's our first week over on Patreon. We’re still, to be honest, at the time of this recording, figuring out how to use Patreon? I would say?CorinneAbsolutely.VirginiaWe're still learning our way around, which I’m sure is the experience that many listeners are also having. Unless you were already a longtime Patreon user, which I think a lot of you were. I mean, I think a lot of us use Patreon. But it’s all new. It’s different. How are you feeling, Corinne?CorinneI’m excited! Definitely still getting to know Patreon as a platform, but it feels refreshing to be somewhere new. It has a very different vibe over here, I think. And I think a lot of people kind of had beef with Substack for various reasons. And so I’m excited we're here. VirginiaIt feels like it was time. Burnt Toast hasd been on Substack for four years. Big Undies is newer, but you have been working in the Substack space for about as long as I have. And there were just a lot of ways that platform had stopped working for us. And a lot of decisions that company had made that were not feeling great. It’s something that listeners have asked for for a long time. People are like, "When are you leaving Substack? We don’t like the Nazis!" And we don’t like the Nazis either. But it was a really big question of how to move these businesses, how to do it without us losing big financially, and in terms of both of these brands till having our communities. We didn’t want to leave and have nobody follow us.CorinneAlso, I think there’s an argument to be made that letting Substack turn into a Nazi-only platform is not useful.VirginiaFor sure, that has been my response for a long time, when folks asked. If we all leave, then only the Nazis remain. And that is a real concern. I think that’s what we saw happen to Twitter, for sure. So many people left, and it is just a cesspool. Is Substack going to become a cesspool? I have no idea. I hope not. I also don’t want to be overly rosy-eyed. I’m sure there are Nazis lurking somewhere on Patreon. I’m hopeful this company is going to do a better job of responding to that situation than Substack did. But I have worked for media corporations my entire career. There are Nazis at all of them. That's just the disgusting reality of making media. It is what it is. But I am hopeful. I think Patreon really understands that that has been a huge frustration of a lot of us on Substack, and I’m hopeful that it’s going to be better here. And not to totally pivot from Nazis to technology, but—there are a lot of great features here at Patreon that we’re really excited about! One of the biggest ones for me is that you can now pay monthly for an Extra Butter subscription after Substack only ever letting me price it annually. That might be very inside baseball to a lot of you, but so many people have emailed and been like, "I would love to do Extra Butter. Can I pay monthly instead of annually?" And I always had to say no, and now I can say yes! CorinneI think the Patreon tier system is very appealing. And I also think there is a nice community element to Patreon that did exist on Substack as well, but I think also it was kind of like a wider Substack community, and on Patreon, it feels a little more unique.VirginiaThis is our community. We are our own ecosystem, which is pretty cool. And I also just want to briefly say on the tiered thing: One piece of feedback that came up a few times in the reader survey–it was not the main throughline, but more than a few people said it—was "we don’t like tiered payment systems. It doesn’t feel egalitarian." What are your thoughts on that? Because I’ll be honest, I hadn’t really thought about it, and then I was like, "Am I replicating a class structure?" I see that critique. People wanted one price for all of the content. And I also think my response is, if I’m going to do one price for all of the content, then that one price can’t be as accessible as I want it to be.CorinneWe do rely on listener support to do this work. I also think sometimes there are people who want one email a week, but not two. VirginiaSO it’s nice to offer different options. On the pricing thing, we had raised the price of Burnt Toast over on Substack up to $7 a month or $70 for a year of the basic subscription. And that was in part because we couldn’t really do as much with Extra Butter as we wanted with their technology limitations. Now that we’re over on Patreon, a regular paid subscription is only going to be $5 a month, and Extra Butter is $10 a month. So I like that now we have a much more accessible tier, and then there’s the higher tier for folks who do want to support more or want to get more content. I hope it doesn’t feel so much like a class system and more like I’m trying to give you options. That’s really how I’m thinking of it. CorinneYeah, that makes sense. VirginiaAnd of course, I’m always going to offer comp subscriptions, no questions asked. If someone just drops me an email and says they need it, I’m always happy to do that. Not as many people take me up on it as you would think. Nobody’s taking advantage of it. People always still feel like they need to explain. You don’t need to explain. I trust that you would support the work if you could. You don’t need to let me know about your student loans or your husband losing his job or whatever. I’m happy to give the comp. So that option still exists as well, and there will still be a lot for the free list too, but not these Extra Butter episodes. These are just for the Extra Butter folks!CorinneThis is where the real juice is.VirginiaAnd now we made it a class system. CorinneOh, sorry. The class system is juiciest, juicy, and no juice. Dry toast.VirginiaOh, man, thinking of the names has been the hardest thing as of this recording. I’m pretty sure the regular tier is now called Just Toast. I think that’s where we’ve landed. It’s Just Toast and Extra Butter. Y’all did make some great suggestions. There was a vocal minority support for Salty Butter. Mostly me, I was outvoted. Some people wanted dry toast, butter, extra butter. And I was like, "I think now we’re too in the weeds of ordering toast?" So, yes, Just Toast and Extra Butter is what we’re doing. CorinneI love that. VirginiaAnything else we should talk about with Patreon that people are likely to be struggling with in this first week? I do realize it’s annoying that if you’re not already a Patreon user, you’re going to have to come over from Subtack. You’re going to have to click the link in your email, come over, re-enter your credit card. We are making sure if you had an annual subscription on Substack, you get credit for all of the months you already paid for. But I’m sure there’s going to be some confusion about that. Bu remember: If you were paying $7 a month on Substack, you will now be paying $5 a month when you rejoin on Patreon. So good news there!CorinneAll right, let me read the first question. I would love your thoughts on building a new wardrobe after a significant size change. Not just seasonal flux situation, but the kind of change where literally none of your clothes fit anymore. Yes, there’s the shopping part, but I’m more interested in your perspective on the mental components in terms of both body change and style change, because what even is your style if you can’t shop at a lot of the same stores or sections of the store? How do you do this in an anti-diet way that doesn’t suck you into the restrictive world of flattering capsule wardrobes, especially when all the pants are bad, and going out tops, which may be long and flowy, are back.VirginiaGoing out tops are back?! I have not been leaving the house. That is not news I have heard. It doesn’t have to be back for you, is what I’ll say. What are your first thoughts on this question?CorinneWell, I have a lot of compassion. I feel like it sucks. It sucks! I do think it’s a mental hurdle to not only be dealing with changes in your own body, but also your accessibility to clothes.VirginiaIt is very jarring. And I hear what this person is saying about, how do I even know what my style is anymore? How do I have style now that I can’t shop in the same stores? I think that’s a real process that people go through, where you just suddenly feel like, "I don’t know what I like because what I used to like isn’t available anymore." So why would you know? It’s like when you go to a new country and eat a cuisine you’re not familiar with. You don’t know what you like because you didn’t grow up eating that food. And then you might discover you love lots of things. But you’re not like, oh, I have a go to menu order here. You’re learning it all. It’s not always as joyful as that. It’s okay to just be angry that that’s the reality. The industry should be better, and you should be able to still wear the same kinds of things you love, like just in your new size, and it shouldn’t be such a mind fuck. CorinneOne hundred percent.VirginiaThat said, I think there can be opportunities to reframe a little bit, where you can start to find something about your new shape that you appreciate and enjoy dressing that you didn’t highlight in your previous shape. Does that make sense? CorinneYes.VirginiaLike just to be extremely heteronormative and reductive about it: I have bigger boobs as a fat person than I did as a thin person, and I like dressing for my boobs more. That’s not going to be everybody’s experience. But I think I often look better in things than I did when I was a B cup? No offense, B cups. But I look cuter in some stuff now that I have boobs.CorinneThat’s awesome, I love that for you.VirginiaI understand that’s not a universal experience. A lot of people have really complicated feelings about having big boobs.CorinneI think another thing you could lean into is how stuff feels. If you’re trying on clothes or whatever, like, maybe do it without a mirror and be like, is this comfortable? Do I Like this color?VirginiaI think trying things on first without a mirror is always such a good way to try on clothes. because if it is not physically comfortable, it doesn’t matter how cute you look in it. So starting with that first and centering your experience of the clothes, not some external gaze’s experience of you in the clothes.CorinneI also feel like when you’re going through something like this, it can be a good time to experiment. I know that’s not always the most fun thing, but I was thinking about Nuuly or like, do you have a friend who’s a similar size who you could try on some of their clothes? Or maybe they’re getting rid of stuff and would give you stuff.VirginiaThis was kind of where I was going with "is there an aspect of your new shape that you enjoy." There can be styles that you wouldn’t have considered before that really do work on the body you have now. It’s fun to experiment and figure out what those are. And it might mean wearing stuff that you feel like, oh no, I never would have liked that. Or that’s not me at all. And a lot of it, you’ll still be like, that’s not me. I don’t like that. But you’ll find one or two things that really do work. Switching over into plus sizes, I started to play with proportions really differently in clothes.CorinneThat’s cool. VirginiaAnd I think one aspect of that was  getting more comfortable with the fact that I was plus size and that I was going to look bigger no matter what I did. I had to make peace with the fact that I can no longer trick people into viewing my body as thin, which I think if you’re midsize or upper straight sizes, is a whole Jedi mind trick we teach ourselves to do. You’re like, "I’m a 12, but I can pass for an eight." Or whatever. When I wore clothes as a straight size person, I was always looking for the slim cut, the skinny, to minimize, because I was trying so hard to stay in that box. And once that box is no longer available, it’s actually kind of liberating, because you’re like, "That’s just not even what we’re trying to do anymore." So I can now love wearing a wide-legged pant. Of course, we’ve talked on the podcast. This is not an instant thing. This is years of working at this. And those internalized things still come up. But it’s kind of freeing to think "If looking skinny is not the goal anymore, that goal is off the table, then what do I want to look like and what’s fun to explore?"CorinneYeah, I think that’s really good advice. Think about how you want to feel in your clothes, versus how you can look smaller.VirginiaAnd don’t you feel like for you–well, I don’t, I don’t know your timeline on this, so if I’m getting this wrong, just tell me. But I feel like your interest in exploring gender fluidity and stuff with fashion has come along with size changes?CorinneHmm, yeah, that’s a interesting thought. Sometimes I also relate it to getting older. I haven’t fully fleshed that out. But I think something about getting older also made me feel like, oh, I don’t need to be feminine to be hot or whatever.VirginiaYeah, definitely not. It’s another way it can open things up. Like, do you want to explore different gender expressions? Being older, you get to give fewer fucks, because no one’s going to confuse you for at 25 year olds. It’s, in some ways, such a relief not, it is not to try to be a hot 25 year old anymore.CorinneWhat we’re saying is let yourself feel whatever you’re feeling. It’s okay to be sad and angry. Let yourself feel free.VirginiaAnd if it’s caftan season or big pants season or whatever it is, you don’t need to wear a going out top. We’re not trying to be a hot 25 year old. That girl has has her whole life ahead of her, and she’s on a different journey. All right. I’ll read the next one. I just left my job to go to grad school full time, and I’m looking for ideas for making sitting at my desk in my home office for many hours a day, more appealing. What do the two of you consider essential for a work from home setup, from technology to lighting to snacks? I love this question.CorinneThis is such a good question. And I feel like this is something I am still very much working on.VirginiaWell, especially right now, because you’re not in your home office setup.CorinneBut even in my home home office! I feel like a comfortable chair is essential.VirginiaI’m about to break up with my chair. I’ve added things to it, like my physical therapist recommended a certain kind of cushion, and I’m just like, I think I’m trying to make a West Elm chair that’s never going to be the right chair for me work. It just sucks that the comfortable chairs are all real ugly.CorinneYes, and they’re like, $1,000.VirginiaThey’re $1,000 of ugliness. It’s not great. So that’s one. Since I don't have a comfortable chair, I would also say having reasons to get up every now and then is really helpful. I’m not of the school that sitting is killing us all. That’s not what I’m here to say. But if you have the ability, from your lower back’s perspective, getting up or just changing where you work throughout the day can be useful.CorinneI don’t even have a great setup for this at my house, but I feel like the ability to work one place and then move and work somewhere else can be really nice just for the brain. Sometimes you need a shift in perspective. I also think having a light for if you have to do Zoom or video calls can be helpful. VirginiaIt’s so annoying, but true. Investing in good lighting. I’d love to know other recs that people have, if they have one they love. I have worked from home and had a home office set up since 2005. So that’s 20 years working from home. And I was just thinking about this, my first home office, which I set up in basically a fugue state because I’d been laid off from my magazine job at the age of 25 and was like, okay, I’m going to be a freelance writer now. And with my last tiny paycheck from that magazine job, I went to the West Elm store and bought a desk, and to sit on, I bought an ottoman. See previous question about we’re not trying to be a hot 25 year old anymore! I think my back is still screwed up from perching on this little ottoman to type. It was cute, and I liked how it fit into the desk. But, like, terrible idea. Just a terrible setup. And then I did have some years where I worked on my couch, which I also do not advise. CorinneOh, I can’t do that. VirginiaI think that really gets uncomfortable. Also just brain-wise, it makes your work and your leisure time too mixed up. So I would say my number one thing is: To whatever extent you can do it in your house, whether it’s a guest room or a closet, whatever —have your workspace be somewhere other than where you sleep and eat and watch TV. This is really the most important thing to me. I need something I can shut a door on, so I know when I’m not working. But it has evolved over the years. I’ve had a lot of different setups, a lot of different things. I have a lot of home office privilege now, because we have this kind of bonus space that I was able to turn into my office, which is really nice and much bigger than I need it to be, but it’s great. Obviously, you don’t need that. But the comfortable chair, the lighting, all help. Snacks is a great question. I need a morning Diet Coke. I need lunch at 11:30 I’m not a wait all the way till noon. I’m not going to be a hero. I’m going to stop at 1130 for lunch most days. And then I need some chocolate in the afternoon.CorinneI’m not quite so scheduled with my snacks, but yeah, I need snacks.VirginiaThey’re important. So the thing you said about changing locations. I work in my home office until about 3:15 or 3:30 when my kids get home from school, and then I bring my laptop downstairs and we have a table where my younger kid sits to do their homework, and I do my work, side-by-side. That’s when I answer emails and stuff, usually. And it is nice to kind of switch gears and go downstairs.CorinneWhere my desk is in my house is kind of dark and then sometimes, if it’s really nice out, I like to sit at like, my kitchen table where it’s much sunnier.VirginiaNatural light is a nice feature in a home office. It’s not required, but it makes you feel less like you’re in a cave. Good luck! It’s fun to set it up. I also think, have some cuteness, like, have some plants, if you like plants, or fun art. Don’t buy a bad West Elm ottoman to sit on. But like, having it be a little aesthetic is nice.All right, I’m going to read this next one, which is a doozy of a question from OG Burnt Toasty Amy H. Thank you, Amy, for submitting this. I don’t know what I’m going to be able to add! Speaking of the horrifying state of the world, many more people are focusing on being prepared by creating bug out bags. These are bags of supplies you’d take if you had to leave your home the country where there was a major infrastructure failure, no water, heat, cooling, electricity, etc. They’re normally associated with preppers preparing for armed attack or civil war, but there are more mainstream accounts recommending this kind of preparation and weight loss as part of being able to get ready to handle martial law or other situations that might require such resources. I feel weird trying to tell people that weight loss probably won’t help and that their preparation focus. Being thin and nimble to avoid harm leaves out anyone with mobility disabilities, certain elderly folks, people in hospitals, etc. Any thoughts on how to be effective in this conversation about weight loss, not needing to be part of being prepared for distressing situations? I’m prepared for nothing. Corinne, do you have a bug-out bag?CorinneI don’t, but I this is something I’ve thought about. I mean, there are also places in the world where this is just part of being alive. Like if you live in a place where there are hurricanes or fires. So I think one thing is having stuff ready, but I think another thing that is nice to think about is how would you help your neighbors? Do you have people around you who are disabled? I mean, I don’t know what to say about the weight loss thing. VirginiaIt just feels like it’s going to show up fucking everywhere, is what I think. Like, really, really we’re preparing for the end of the world, and people are like, better lose weight for it!!!CorinneI mean, if you feel like you aren’t able to get out of your house by yourself, it’s good to have a plan. But I don’t think the plan needs to be a diet.VirginiaAlso how can you be sure of the timing? You don’t know how fast you’re going to lose that weight. Disaster could hit beforehand. You know, it could be, you could be in a plateau, like...CorinneAnd calories are really important for is your brain, which you might want to be using in a situation like this.Virginia The last thing we need is a hangry group of people trying to survive an apocalypse.CorinneThere are two ways to approach these apocalyptic scenarios. One is: How can I protect myself at all costs? And the other one is: How can I work within a network of people who may have things to offer and may also need things from me? We can help each other. So I would encourage people to think about it that way, rather than, "What can I do to train my individual body to be ready?"VirginiaGod, that’s so wise. So I guess when you’re in conversation with people, if they mention losing weight, you could start to pivot it towards have you thought about how you’re going to help folks in your community? Or, I’ve been worrying about the old lady down the block, like, I wonder if we should talk to her about what she needs. Especially if you live in one of these places where evacuations happen for wildfires or hurricanes or whatever. I mean, I’m just acknowledging I have a lot of East Coast privilege. Not that anywhere is safe, but I don’t live in a place where we are regularly facing this. I guess I just thought everyone I love is coming to my house? I have a lot of Cheez-Its in the basement! I’m pretty prepped on that front, so come on over. CorinneI just also don’t think that being thin necessarily makes you better able to survive a disaster. VirginiaNo. One of the prevailing theories about fatness is we’re the ones who survived the disasters. Like, how did we evolve to survive famines? Holding on to calories is something smart your body does to prevent against destruction.CorinneThere’s that whole paradox where, as you age, it’s actually better to have higher body weight. VirginiaYou need some reserves. Also for babies. If you have babies in the NICU dealing with health issues, weight is a big concern there because the more reserves they have, the more they can survive whatever they’re going through. So yeah. Really not a time to focus on thinness. Really a time to be glad if you’ve got some reserves. And think about how to help other people in your community. That seems super important.Corinneif you do want to exercise to have more mobility, or more ability to get around in an emergency scenario, that’s cool. You can focus on that without focusing on weight loss specifically. All right!What is the fall equivalent of my summer uniform of gauze or linen pants plus a plain t-shirt?VirginiaOh, I love this question. I love this summer uniform. First of all, I kind of want to go redo summer and wear a gauze pants and a plain t-shirt. A+ uniform choice. I have been thinking about this a lot lately, because my summer uniform was those Big Bud Press tank tops and some drawstring linen shorts was kind of what I was living in. So, similar concept. And I had some pants, too...Okay, I guess I was doing linen pants and a plain tee. It's me. I wrote this question. I don’t know what my full fall uniform will be. My hybrid summer/fall uniform until we’re fully into colder weather, is these ImBodhi jumpsuits that I have. I have a black one and I have a blue one, which I wear layered with either a cardigan or an open button down shirt over it. So it’s similar, because it’s like a flowy, wide leg pants with a tank top top, and then a lighter layer. And I’m kind of wondering if you could do the same thing of just adding a button down or a cardigan to your linen pants and plain t shirt? That will get you through the next couple of weeks before it’s we’re fully into fall.CorinneIs it not just jeans and a plain tee?VirginiaBut I feel like the linen pants feels a little more like polished maybe? Jeans might feel too casual? I would think you could go to jeans, but I am very interested in finding some comfortable non-jeans pants for fall. And I don’t know what they are yet. We talked about this last time. My quest continues.CorinneI like the idea of trousers, but I do think they’re hard to find.VirginiaYeah. I want some elastic waist trousers. CorinneOkay, I feel like, Lucy and Yak has some stuff like that, where it’s like, elastic waist, but it’s tapered, and they have a lot of fun colors. I think their sizing can be hard to figure out. VirginiaI had a bad experience with one of their boilersuit type jumpsuits, where I was trapped. I really needed a bug out bag for that apocalyptic situation in my closet. Barely came out alive. Anyway. Do you hone in on a seasonal uniform? Because I really do do this.CorinneI mean, I feel like my uniform is always just...VirginiaJeans and a shirt?CorinneOr shorts and a shirt? But I do tend more towards a button-down. VirginiaYou love a button-down. CorinneI mean, I definitely will wear things over and over again, but I don’t quite think of it as a uniform.VirginiaI love a uniform. I love reducing the decisions, especially during the week. I love having outfits that give me a zero body anxiety, because I found the thing. I guess, related to that first question, like, I found one formula that’s working for my body. Let me just replicate it. But every season, it’s like, oh, what will it be? So I don’t know, what with the colder weather coming, I haven’t cracked it yet this year. But we'll see. CorinneOkay, I’m going to read the next one. It seems like there are very few actively fat-positive bloggers these days. My question is, how does it feel to work with these bloggers, does it ever feel like tokenism? For example, Cup of Jo occasionally features a stylish fat person, but she posts far, far more outfits and people who can fit outfits and labels that are only straight sized. I’m often told at least Cup of Jo posts something for fat people, most bloggers don’t at all. It just feels so hurtful, like I wouldn’t create a blog post that promotes things that only a small percentage of the US population could wear. Eek, I don’t know if I’m being overly sensitive, so I’m curious how you handle it, or if you have a different perspective.VirginiaYeah, I think that’s pretty valid. I think it is very frustrating how much straight size bloggers and newsletter writers, especially in the fashion space, continue to forget that fat people exist and wear clothes. So I really hear this. Corinne, you’ve written about this on Big Undies several times like this. It is an ongoing problem.  CorinneYeah, I actually was just posting about this,  I posted, "New rule! You’re not allowed to use the word everyone or universal or like mankind in your marketing or brand name, if you only make up to a size extra large." I just think it’s like so common to overlook that. And I will say, because this person says, "I wouldn’t create a blog post that promotes things that only a small percentage of people could wear." But I do think we all have blind spots. I think you may not know the people you’re leaving out. I’m sure there are people I leave out, you know? You know, even though I strive not to.VirginiaGood point. How many blog posts contain adaptive clothing?CorinneYeah, or very short inseams. Or people who are allergic to certain materials, there are just so many different ways people can be. And, I have found some people are open to that feedback. And some people aren’t. I’ve had people who see my posts reach out to me then and be like, hey, I would like to include more options in this post I’m doing. How can I do that?VirginiaOn Cup of Jo specifically, I will say Joanna is someone who is very open to that feedback, and I’ve appreciated that about her. I mean, I am one of the stylish fat people she includes from time to time. And I would like her to include more! But recently, she featured a Swedish woman talking about her life, and she referenced Malia Mills swimsuits and said they come in so many sizes for all bodies. So I clicked through, and they go up to a size 16. And it’s not a large 16. And I posted a comment, "Hey, this is so great. It makes me want to move to Sweden. Also, this is not an inclusive brand." And immediately, Joanna was like, "Thank you so much. Yes, correct." So I think it is about offering consistent feedback to these folks and making sure they know that we’re noticing. And that means also noticing when they do it right.And I understand your point about tokenism, and I don’t know how we make progress past tokenism without like—she asks me to do something. I do it so that there’s a fat person on Cup of Jo. Do you know what I mean? And sometimes I don’t and I say "I’m busy. Try Corinne, try someone else." I do try to make sure they’re getting other people on their radar, because that’s part of my responsibility here, to share the platform. But I think we have to keep showing up to those spaces, as readers and as people who might be featured there. And the more we show up and the more we participate, the better it gets. And of course, it’s annoying that this work has to be done. But I do remember being a straight, size person and just truly not understanding this reality.CorinneAnd that Swedish woman is like, oh, here’s a great inclusive brand. It goes up to 16. But I’m someone who, like, most of the time when people are talking about inclusive stuff, they’re talking about "up to 3x," and often the 3x doesn’t fit me. So you’re always leaving someone out.VirginiaEven the most inclusive brands who do go up to a 3X or 4X are not including everybody. There’s no perfect way to do this. But there are better ways to do this. It’s better to include a brand that goes up to 3X than only goes up to 16, but it would be better still to include one that goes up to 5X or 6X. I think Kim France also is getting this message, and she comes from longtime fashion magazine land where nobody was above a size 12—that was unfathomable. And she’s open to it. She’s trying to do better. But there's also the reality that these are all bloggers who have financial relationships with certain brands. They’re sponsored by those brands, and those brands might not be the most size inclusive, and so they’re in a complicated situation. And that is why Burnt Toast relies on paid subscriptions, guys! That is why advertising-driven media is always going to be a little problematic. Because when you are a content creator who is reliant on brands for your income, not on your audience, you are going to do what those brands want. And that’s the problem with that whole system.CorinneSubscribe now!VirginiaI didn’t mean to turn that into a pitch, but I do just think it’s worth noting that this is one business model/ Of you personally don’t like that business model, there are options. And, choose who you’re paying for subscriptions with. There are people trying not to do it that way, but in order to do that, we can’t rely on sponsors. So the subscription model is the alternative. All right. Last question is a fun one. What is everyone doing for Halloween and Halloween costume ideas?CorinneWe’re recording this in mid-September. I do not have any Halloween ideas or any Halloween plans. VirginiaOkay, well, you are a child-free person, because Halloween has been discussed around here since approximately July, I would say. I had one kiddo who she and her friends were going to go as the K-Pop Demon Hunters girl band, but they just switched it to being dragons. I’m not sure if it’s a specific dragon or just dragons, so I’m waiting to hear more about that. And then my younger kiddo is deciding between Elphaba, which I think is going to be the one of the most popular costumes this Halloween, or the Grim Reaper. No matter what, I will be a witch, because I decided last year I have one costume for the rest of my life, and it is witch. So I will be a witch. That said, if she is Elphaba, I might also do the green face paint with her, and we could both be Elphaba. And I did float to Jack that he could be Glinda if he wanted, just to, like, round things out. He was like, I could be the lion. I was like, or better. And he was like, well, that would be better. So we’ll see. We’ll see if that happens. So that’s what we’ve got going on for Halloween. This is my theme of my episode. I’m like, have a uniform. Have a Halloween costume. Never have to make decisions.CorinneDo you guys just go to Spirit Halloween?VirginiaSometimes? Usually their dad actually is in charge of executing their costumes. CorinneOh, nice VirginiaThat's a little mental load I’ve handed off over the years. So sometimes he builds elements. Like, last year, my older kid was Zyborg. So there were a lot of elements of that costume, and he helped her source them, and they made some. When they were younger, I would spend money on a decent Halloween costume because it would go into our dress up box. So we have some Halloween costumes that have been played with for years and that we’ve been able to hand down. Like, we have a good dragon costume that I think both of them wore as little kids, and a ladybug costume. Do you have any local Halloween parties you go to or anything? Or is every year just kind of like whatever?CorinneI think every year is kind of like whatever. There is a neighborhood near me that goes really all out and shuts down a bunch of streets. People go wild. And so I often will, like, walk over to that with friends and walk around. VirginiaI mean, we have discussed Halloween is a hard holiday for fat people, the costume inclusivity, talk about sizing nightmares. If you are also a little bit of a Halloween hater, you can come sit us.CorinneYeah, I don’t love wearing costumes.VirginiaNo, it’s not my favorite, but I’m excited to see what Burnt Toasties dress up as. We’ll try to remember to do a thread. A chat in the chat room! Now that we’re on Patreon. Got to use the lingo! A chat room about Halloween costumes and see what people are dressing up as, because I do like seeing other people’s costumes. I just don’t want the added work myself.CorinneTotally.BUTTERVirginiaYou go first, because I have to remember my Butter.CorinneOkay, well, I’m going with a really classic Butter. My butter is potato chips. Because I just ate some. I’m still in Maine, as discussed. And there’s this really good potato chip brand Fox Family potato chips. They come in like a silver bag. They’re so good. They’re like, they’re better than Cape Cod, in my opinion.VirginiaThat's a major gauntlet thrown with two New Englanders. CorinneI know. And they have a salt and pepper flavor that I am really into right now.VirginiaThat sounds absolutely delightful. My Butter is a new end of garden season thing I’m doing, which is pressing flowers. Jack made me a flower press for my birthday back in April, and then I kind of forgot about it for a few months. And he was like, hey, we should use the flower press. And it was so fun! We picked some flowers, we put it in the press. We forgot about it for three weeks. We opened it up, and they were like... really flat. And I don’t know why that is exciting! And we put them in chunky acrylic frames I have that magnet together, so they were kind of like a nice modern way of because I feel like flower press art. It can be a little twee. It’s always darling. But it’s not like super my aesthetic. I’ve also heard people now suggesting mod podging them onto stuff, which I think could be fun to do with the kids. So we may, we might try some of that. CorinneThat could be a good costume. Mod Podge them onto some shirts or something. VirginiaI thought you meant go as an actual flower press. I was like, what? I tried to be a garden one year. It didn’t go very well.. I’m going to stick with witch. But thank you.CorinneYou could be a flower witch! VirginiaI could be a flower witch! That’s sort of my whole personality, right there. Flower witch. I’m always in my feelings in October about the garden wrapping up, and it’s nice to, like, preserve a little bit of it. It’s like a real low lift, low stakes, low lift. So, yeah, flower press. Well, this was a great episode. We are over here on Patreo! And thank you guys for coming along and checking it out with us. It’s going to be even better than what it was, but also basically the same thing. So don’t feel super stressed about the change. The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies! The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my guest is Emily Ladau, a disability rights activist, and author of Demystifying Disability. Our conversation today is about the many intersections between anti-fatness and ableism. This is such an important conversation, even if you feel like you’re new to both of these worlds. We investigate who is considered a “worthy” disabled person or a Good Fatty — and how these stereotypes so often pit two marginalization experiences against each other. Today’s episode is free but if you value this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription. Burnt Toast is 100% reader- and listener-supported. We literally can’t do this without you!PS. You can take 10 percent off Demystifying Disability, or any book we talk about on the podcast, if you order it from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, along with a copy of Fat Talk! (This also applies if you’ve previously bought Fat Talk from them. Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)Episode 213 TranscriptEmilyI am a disability rights activist. I am a wheelchair user. I’m the author of a book called Demystifying Disability: What to Know, What to Say, and How to Be an Ally. It’s a bit of a mouthful, but all of that is really just to say that I am very passionate about educating people about the disability experience, and doing it through a lens that recognizes that we’re all at a different point on the journey of thinking about disability and talking about disability. I really want to welcome people into what I know can be a sometimes overwhelming and uncomfortable conversation.VirginiaYou have been a disability rights activist since you appeared on Sesame Street as a 10 year old. I saw the clip. It’s just adorable, little baby Emily. I mean, first tell us about that if you want! Or if you’re sick of talking about it, I get it. But I would also love to know: When did your disability rights work morph into fat liberation work? And how do you see these two spheres intersecting?EmilyOn the Sesame Street note, my family likes to joke that I am totally milking that, because it happened when I was 10. But that was the first moment that I really understood that disabled people do have a place in the media. Prior to that, I had not seen almost anyone who looked like me, with the exception of two books that I read over and over again. And one other little girl who was also on Sesame Street who used a wheelchair.VirginiaWow.EmilyAnd I’m sure maybe somewhere else out there, there were other things. But I was an early 90s kid, and the media had just not caught up to showing me that I belonged. So having that experience is something that I really don’t take for granted.I like to joke that in many ways, I am the “typical” disabled person. If you look up a stock photo of someone with a disability, it’s probably a white woman using a wheelchair. Oddly enough, she’s probably also on a beach, holding her arms out. You know? VirginiaAs soon as you said it, I have a visual. I’ve seen that picture. Obviously, she’s on a beach.EmilyYes, so I am sort of the cliche version. But at the same time, I’m not. Because there’s sort of an “acceptable” disabled person, and she is the thin, pretty, white woman who is sitting in a wheelchair. I meet, I suppose, some of those traits, but I am someone who, in later years so far, has come to identify as fat and no longer sees that as the derogatory term that it was always leveraged towards me as.Any relationship that I have to fat liberation work has been sort of an evolutionary process for me. It’s newer to me. I didn’t understand when I was younger how that fit into disability rights work. But I see now that we can’t have those conversations separately. First of all, every issue is a disability issue. So every issue impacts disabled people. And second of all, the disability community encompasses every identity, every body type, every experience. There are more than a billion disabled people around the world. So you absolutely have every single possible body type within the disability community. And if we are not talking about fat liberation, if we are not talking about LGBTQIA+ rights, if we are not talking about ensuring that our work is meaningfully intersectional, then it’s not actually disability rights work.VirginiaBut it is tricky to figure out how all those things intersect and fit together for sure.EmilyI feel like I’m constantly playing a game of Tetris with that. And I don’t mean that to say, oh, woe is me. But more so, how do we get society to recognize how those pieces interlock with one another?VirginiaDo you mind sharing a little bit about how anti-fatness shows up in your own experiences? Sometimes it’s helpful to name those moments, because some people listening might think, oh, I’ve had that too, and I didn’t know to name it as anti-fatness, or, oh, I’ve been on the wrong side of that. And it’s helpful to hear why that was not helpful.EmilyThere is no clear direction to take this answer, because it’s impacted me in two diametrically opposed ways.The first is that I have been judged incredibly harshly as being lazy, as being unhealthy, as being someone who maybe doesn’t take care of myself in the way that I should. And the wheelchair is seen as the cause of that.On the flip side, I have also been treated as though disability is the only cause of anything going on in my body, and therefore I should be given a free pass if I am considered, as doctors would say, “overweight.”VirginiaIt’s like, Oh, it’s okay. You’re in a wheelchair. What can we do? We can’t expect you to go for a run.EmilyExactly. So you see what I mean. It’s either one or the other. I’m either bad and lazy or it’s like, oh, poor you. You can’t get up and exercise.VirginiaBoth of those are such judgmental, patronizing ways to talk about you and your body.EmilyThey’re super frustrating. I think that both of those are anti-fatness in their own right. But for me, it sends conflicting messages, because I’m trying to seek medical support for certain issues. And some doctors are like, “Lose weight!” And other doctors are like, “Well, we can’t do anything because you’re in a wheelchair.” And so both of those are very unhelpful responses.VirginiaOh man, it really speaks to the lack of intersectional care in medicine, that people don’t know how to hold these two facts together and also give you comprehensive medical care at the same time.EmilyI wish that we could just have disabled people speaking with medical students as a requirement in every single medical school program. But instead, I feel like we’re either completely relegated to the sidelines of conversations in medical school, or maybe we’re brought up in very clinical and dehumanizing ways, and we don’t stop to think holistically about a person.It’s interesting, because my mom has often said—and I should note, she has the same disability that I do. So she’s a wheelchair user as well. But she feels very strongly that a lot of other medical issues that I am dealing with now were overlooked when I was younger, because everybody was so hung up on my disability that nobody was offering me the support that I needed for other things that could have, in turn, prevented some of what I’m now navigating.So it seems like healthcare can’t hold multiple truths at once.They can’t think about your body and think about everything going on. It’s either you’re fat or you’re disabled.VirginiaGod forbid you have a health condition that is not weight linked and not linked to your disability. That’s going to throw them completely for a loop.EmilyYeah, it’s very much a binary. I think that it’s led to a lot of confusion among healthcare providers. Certainly, I know there have been delayed diagnoses on many, many things. I’ve also had it leveraged against me in terms of what I would consider chronic illness, because I would get sick pretty regularly when I was a child, and every time I would throw up, it would be thrown in my face: “Well you’re eating poorly. You’re not taking care of yourself.” And nobody thought to do anything to check what was actually going on. They just thought that I was not taking care of myself. Turns out I had gallstones and needed my gallbladder removed. But when people see the wheelchair, they don’t take me seriously.VirginiaNo, and let’s be clear: Gallstones is not a condition you can treat by eating salad. Like, that’s not something you can nutrition your way out of.EmilyI could not lettuce my way out of that one.VirginiaAre there any strategies you’ve figured out that helps you get a doctor to cut through some of those biases, or cut through some of that noise and actually focus on what you need them to focus on?EmilyI have to rehearse what I want to say in a doctor’s appointment. And I don’t think I’m unique in that. I’m sure that there are plenty of people who put together their notes and think through very carefully what they want to say before they go. As much as doctors tend to be frustrated when the patient comes in and it’s clear that they were reading WebMD, I’ve found I need to point them in the right direction, because at least it gets them started down the path that I’m hoping to explore.And I’m not saying that I think that I have years of medical school worth of expertise, but when I was little, I used to always complain to my parents, “You’re not in my body. You don’t know how I’m feeling.”VirginiaSo wise.EmilyAnd I think that that remains relevant. I’m not trying to be a difficult patient. But I have very strong awareness of what is happening internally and externally. And so if I come in and I seem like I have it together and I’m prepared, I feel like doctors take me more seriously. And I have a lot of privilege here, because I am a white woman. I communicate verbally. English is my first language. So in a lot of ways, I can prepare in this way. But I don’t think I should have to, to get the medical care that I need.VirginiaDoctors should be meeting us where we are. We shouldn’t be expected to do hours of homework in preparation in order to be treated with basic respect and dignity. And yet, it is helpful, I think, to hear okay, this labor can be beneficial, But it’s a lot of extra labor, for sure.EmilyIt is, and I’ve broken up with doctors over it. And I’ve also had doctors who I think have broken up with me, for lack of a better way to put it.I have had multiple doctors who have just kind of said, “We don’t know how to deal with you, therefore we are not going to deal with you.” And in seeking the care that I need, I have run into walls because of it, whether it’s a literal, physical wall in the sense that I tried to seek care, because I was having GI distress. I tried to go see the doctor, and the doctor’s office was not wheelchair accessible, and they told me it was my fault for not asking beforehand.VirginiaI’m sorry, what? They’re a doctor’s office.EmilyThe one place I actually thought I would be fine and not have to double check beforehand. So that’s sort of the physical discrimination. And then getting into the office, I’ve had doctors who have said, “I’m sorry, I don’t know how to help you.” Go see this specialist. I’m sorry, I don’t know what I can do for you, and then not return my calls.VirginiaOh, I knew this conversation was going to make me mad, but it’s really making me mad.EmilyAnd I say all of this is somebody, again, who has health insurance and access to transportation to get to and from doctors, and a general working knowledge of my own body and the healthcare system. But I mean, if it’s this much of a nightmare for me, multiply that by other marginalized identities, and it’s just absurd.VirginiaIt really is. You’ve kind of led us there already just in talking about these experiences, but I think there’s also so much ableism embedded in how we talk about weight and health. And I thought we could unpack some of that a little bit. One that you put on my radar is all this fearmongering about how we all sit down too much, and sitting is killing us. And if you have a job that requires you to sit all day, it’s taking years off your life. And yet, of course, people who use wheelchairs are sitting down. EmilyI think about this a lot, because I would say at least a few times a year some major publication releases an article that basically says we are sitting ourselves to death. And I saw one I know at least last year in the New York Times, if not this year,VirginiaNew York Times really loves this topic. They’re just all over there with their standing desks, on little treadmills all day long.EmilyI actually decided to Google it before we chatted. I typed in, “New York Times, sitting is bad for you.” And just found rows of articles.EmilyThe first time that this ever really came up for me was all the way back in 2014, and I was kind of just starting out in the world of writing and putting myself out there in that way as an activist. And I came across an article that said that the more I sit, the closer I am to death, basically.It’s really tough for me, because I’m sure there’s a kernel of truth in the sense that if you are not moving your body, you are not taking care of your body in a way that works for you. But the idea that sitting is the devil is deeply ableist, because I need to sit. That does not mean that I cannot move around in my own way, and that does not mean that I cannot function in my own way, but it’s just this idea that sitting is bad and sitting is wrong and sitting is lazy. Sitting is necessary.VirginiaSitting is just how a lot of us get things done every day, all day long.EmilyRight, exactly.VirginiaSure, there were benefits to lifestyles that involved people doing manual labor all day long and being more active. Also people died in terrible farming accidents. It’s all part of that romanticization of previous generations as somehow healthier—which was objectively not true. EmilyYou make such a good point from a historical perspective. There’s this idea that it’s only if we’re up and moving and training for a 5k that we’re really being productive and giving ourselves over to the capitalist machine, but at the same time, doing that causes disability in its own way.VirginiaSure does. Sure does. I know at least two skinny runners in my local social circle dealing with the Achilles tendons ruptures. It takes a toll on your body.EmilyOr doing farm labor, as you were talking about. I mean, an agrarian society is great until you throw your back out. Then what happens?VirginiaThere are a lot of disabled folks living with the consequences of that labor. EmilyAnd I’ve internalized this messaging. I am not at all above any of this. I mean, I’m so in the thick of it, all the time, no matter how much work I read by fat liberation activists, no matter how much I try to ground myself in understanding that fatness does not equal badness and that sitting does not equal laziness, I am so trapped in the cycle of “I ate something that was highly caloric, and now I better do a seated chair workout video for my arm cycle.” And I say this because I’m not ashamed to admit it. I want people to understand that disabled people are like all other people. We have the same thoughts, the same feelings. We are impacted by diet culture.VirginiaGetting all the same messaging.EmilyWe are impacted by fat shaming. And I know that no matter what I would tell another person, I’m still working on it for myself.VirginiaWell, I always say: The great thing about fat liberation is you don’t need to be done doing the work to show up here. We are all in a messy space with it, because it’s it’s hard to live in this world, in a body, period, And you have this added layer of dealing with the ableism that comes up. I mean, even in fat liberation spaces, which should be very body safe, we see ableism showing up a lot. And I’d love you to talk a little bit about how you see that manifesting.EmilyI think that this is a problem across pretty much every social justice movement. I just do Control F or Command F and type in the word “disability” on a website and see if it comes up in the mission statement, the vision, the values, what we care about, our issues. And so often it’s not there and you have to go digging.And I don’t say this to say that I think disability should be hierarchically more important than any other form of marginalization. I’m saying disability should be included among the list of marginalizations that we are focusing on, because it coexists with all other identities. And yet in a lot of fat liberation spaces, I still feel like I am not represented. I don’t see myself. It’s still a certain type of body, and that body is usually non-disabled or not disclosing that they have a non-apparent disability.I have a few people that I come across who I would say are in the fat liberation, fat activism spaces where they are also apparently disabled, and they are loud and they are proud about that. But for the most part, I still don’t see myself. And I think that’s where the ableism comes up, is that we are still celebrating only certain types of bodies. It’s very interesting when you’re in a space where the point is to celebrate all bodies, and yet all bodies are still not celebrated.VirginiaWell, and I want to dig into why that is, because I think it’s something really problematic in how fat politics have developed in the last 10-20, years, As the Health at Every Size movement gathered steam and gathered a following, the message that was marketable, that was easy to center and get people interested and excited about, was you can be healthy at every size. And because we have such an ableist definition of what health is, that meant, let’s show a fat person running. Let’s show a fat person rock climbing. Let’s show a fat ballerina. Let’s show a fat weight lifter, and then you’re automatically going to exclude so many people. So, so many people of other abilities.We had the folks from ASDAH on, who are the keepers of the Health at Every Size principles, and they’ve done a lot of work in recent years to start to shift this. They recognize that there was a real lack of centering disability, and I am really impressed with that. But in terms of the way the mainstream media talks about these concepts, certainly the way I talked about them in my own work for years, that mainstreaming of Health at Every Size was embedded with a lot of ableism.EmilyAnd I came to Health at Every Size pretty early on in my quest to lean into fatness and stop with the internalized body shame. But instead, I think it led to internalized ableism, because I then thought, well, if I’m not going to go climb Mount Everest, am I really living up to the principles of Health at Every Size?VirginiaThere was an expectation that we all had to be exceptional fat people. And that you had to be a mythbuster. And the reality is that fat people, just like any people, are not a monolith, and we don’t all want to rock climb, and we can’t all rock climb, and fatness can coexist with disability. It didn’t make space for that.EmilyWe say the same thing about the disability community, And in the same way that there is the “good fat person,” there is the “good disabled person.” There’s the disabled person who is seen as inspirational for overcoming hardship and overcoming obstacles. And I can’t tell you how many times I have been patronized and infantilized and treated as though it’s a miracle that I got out of bed in the morning. And I like to say to people, it’s not inspiring that I got out of bed in the morning, unless you happen to know me well and know that I’m not a morning person, in which case, yes, it is very inspiring.VirginiaI am a hero today. Thank you for noticing.EmilyI mean, I say that as a joke, but it’s true. There’s nothing inspiring about the fact that I got out of bed in the morning, but in order to be performing at all times as the good disabled person, you have to show up in a certain way in the world. And I feel like that pressure is on me doubly, as a disabled fat person.Because not only do I have to be the good disabled person who is doing my own grocery shopping, but I need to be mindful about what it is that I’m grocery shopping for.I need to be eating the salad in front of people instead of something with a lot of cheese on it, right? So I feel like, no matter what I do when I’m in public, I’m putting on a performance, or at least I’m expected to. I’ve started to be able to work through that. Years of therapy and a healthy relationship. But for a very long time, if I wasn’t the ideal disabled person and the ideal fat person in every way, then I was doing something wrong, rather than that society was wrong for putting that on me.VirginiaAnd it just feels like that’s so much bound up in capitalism, in the way we equate someone’s value with their productivity, with their ability to earn and produce and achieve. I haven’t lived as a disabled person, but I have a kid with a disability, and in the years when we were navigating much more intensely her medical condition, I definitely felt the pressure to be the A+ medical mom, the mom of the disabled kid. There are a lot of expectations on that, too. I had to know the research better than any doctor in the room. I had to have all these strategies for her social emotional health. And I had to, of course, be managing the nutrition. And I can remember feeling like, when do I get to just exist? Like, when do we get to just exist as mother and daughter? When do I get to just be a person? Because there was so much piled on there. So I can only imagine lit being your whole life is another level.EmilyI feel like I’m always putting on a show for people. I always need to do my homework. I always need to be informed. And this manifested at such an early age because I internalized this idea that, yes, I’m physically disabled. I can’t play sports. So I need to make academics into my sports, and I need to do everything I can to make sure I’m getting As and hundreds on every test. And that was my way of proving my worth.And then, well, I can’t be a ballerina, but I can still participate in adaptive dance classes. And I try to get as close as I can to being the quote, unquote, normal kid. And let me say there’s, there’s nothing wrong with adaptive programs. There’s nothing wrong with all of those opportunities. But I think that they’re all rooted somewhat in this idea that all disabled children should be as close to normalcy as possible. Some arbitrary definition of it.VirginiaYes, and the definition of normal is again, so filtered through capitalism, productivity, achievement. We need different definitions. We need diversity. We need other ways of being and modeling. EmilyAbsolutely. And what it comes down to is your life is no less worth living because you’re sitting down.VirginiaAmazing that you have to say that out loud, but thank you for saying it.EmilyI really wish somebody had said it to me. There’s so much pressure on us at all times to be better, to be thinner, to make our bodies as acceptable as possible, in spite of our disabilities, if that makes sense.There are thin and beautiful and blonde, blue-eyed, gorgeous women with disabilities. And I’m not saying that that’s my ideal. I’m just saying that’s mainstream society’s ideal. And that’s the disabled woman who will get the role when the media is trying to be inclusive, who will land the cover of the magazine when a company is trying to be inclusive. But I don’t feel like I’m part of that equation. And I’m not saying this to insult anybody’s body, because everybody’s body is valid the way that it is. But what I am saying is that I still don’t feel like there’s a place for me, no matter how much we talk about disability rights and justice, no matter how much we talk about fat liberation, no matter how much privilege I hold, I still feel like I am somehow wrong.VirginiaIt’s so frustrating. And I’m sorry that that that has to be your experience, that that’s what you’re up against. It sucks.EmilyDo you ever feel like these are just therapy sessions instead of podcasts?VirginiaI mean. It’s often therapy for me. So yes.Not to pivot to an even more uplifting topic, but I also wanted to talk about the MAHA of it all a little bit. Everything you’re saying has always been true, and this is a particularly scary and vulnerable time to be disabled.We have a Secretary of Health who says something fatphobic and/or ableist every time he opens his mouth, we have vaccine access under siege. I could go on and on. By the time this episode airs, there will be 10 new things he’s done that are terrifying. It’s a lot right now. How are you doing with that?EmilyIt’s really overwhelming, and I know I’m not alone in feeling that. And I’ll say literally, two days ago, I went and got my covid booster and my flu vaccine, and I was so happy to get those shots in my arm. I am a big believer in vaccination. And I’m not trying to drum up all the controversy here,VirginiaThis is a pro-vaccine podcast, if anyone listening does not feel that way, I’m sorry, there are other places you can work that out. I want everyone to get their covid and flu shots.EmilyI give that caveat because in the disability community, there’s this weird cross section of people who are anti-vaccine and think that it’s a disability rights issue that they are anti-vaccine. So it’s just a very messy, complicated space to be in. But I make no bones about the fact that I am very, very pro-vaccine.More broadly, it’s a really interesting time to be disabled and to be a fat disabled person, because on the one hand, technically, if you’re immunocompromised or more vulnerable, you probably have better vaccine access right now.VirginiaBecause you’re still in the ever-narrowing category of people who are eligible.EmilySo somehow being disabled is working out in my favor a little bit at the moment, but at the same time, as I say that, RFK is also spreading immense amounts of incorrect information about disability, about fitness, about what bodies can and should be doing. And he’s so hung up on finding the causes and then curing autism.VirginiaNobody asked him to do that.EmilyYeah. Like, no one. Or, actually, the problem is a few people said that they wanted it because people are very loud. Also, I saw that he reintroduced the Presidential physical fitness test.VirginiaLike I don’t have enough reasons to be mad at this man. I was just like, what are you doing, sir?EmilySo on the one hand, he’s sort of inadvertently still protecting disabled people, if you want to call it that, by providing access to vaccines. But mostly he’s just making it a lot harder to survive as a disabled person.I am genuinely fearful for what is going to happen the longer he is at the helm of things and continues to dismantle basic access to health care. Because more people are going to become disabled. And I’m not saying that being disabled is a bad thing, but I am saying, if something is completely preventable, what are you doing?VirginiaRight? Right? Yes, if we lose herd immunity, we’re going to have more people getting the things we vaccinate against.EmilyMany of the major players in the disability rights movement as it was budding in the 1960s and the 1970s were disabled because of polio. I am very glad that they existed. I am very, very glad that these people fought for our rights. I’m also very, very glad that there’s a polio vaccine.VirginiaI guess this is a two part question. Number one, is there anything you want folks to be doing specifically in response to RFK? I mean, call your representatives. But if you have other ideas for advocacy, activism work you’d like to see people engaging in. And two, I’m curious for folks who want to be good disability allies: What do you want us doing more of?EmilyI am a big believer in focusing on things that feel attainable, and that doesn’t mean don’t call your reps, and that doesn’t mean don’t get out there and be loud. But sometimes starting where you are can make the most difference. And so if it feels really overwhelming and you’re not gonna get up tomorrow and go to Washington, DC and join a protest, that’s okay. If you don’t feel like you have the capacity to pick up the phone and call your representatives tomorrow, that’s okay, too. But if you can impact the perspective of one person in your life, I genuinely believe that has a ripple effect, and I think that we underestimate the power of that. Throw one stone in the ocean. All of those ripples create the wave. And so if you have somebody in your life who is being ableist in some way, whether it is through anti-vax sentiment, whether it is through the language that they use, whether it is through the assumptions that they make about people with disabilities, try to take the time to educate that person. You may not change the whole system. You may not even change that person’s mind. But at least give them an opening to have a conversation, offer them the tools and the resources point them in the right direction. And I know that that’s really hard and really exhausting, and that sometimes it feels like people are a lost cause, but I have been able to meet people where they are in that way. Where, if I show up with the research, if I show up with the resources, if I say I’m willing to meet you halfway here, I’m not demanding that you change all your views overnight, but will you at least give me a chance to have a conversation? That’s genuinely meaningful. So that’s my best advice. And I know that it’s not going to change everything, but I’m still a believer in the power of conversation.VirginiaThat’s really helpful, because I think we do avoid those conversations, but you’re right. If you go in with the mindset of, I don’t have to totally change this person on everything, but if I can move the needle just a little bit with them, that does something I think that feels a lot more doable and accessible.EmilyAnd I think it also is about honoring your own capacity. If you are a person who is marginalized in multiple ways, and you are tired of having those conversations, it is okay to set that weight down and let somebody else have the conversations.VirginiaThat is a good use of the able-bodied allies in your life. Put us to work tell us to do the thing because it shouldn’t be on you all the time.EmilyAnd I’m more than happy to have these conversations and more than happy to educate but it’s empowering when we can do it on our own terms, and we’re not often given that opportunity, because we have to be activists and advocates for ourselves at every turn. And so sometimes when somebody else picks up that load, that means a lot.ButterEmilyI thought about this a lot.VirginiaEverybody does. It’s a high pressure question.EmilyI am in the last stages of wedding planning. So my recommendation is more from a self care perspective. When you are in the throes of something incredibly chaotic, and when you are in the throes of navigating the entire world while also trying to plan something joyful—lean into that joy. My recommendation is to lean into your joy. I know I could recommend like a food or a TV show or something, but I think it’s more about like, what is that thing that brings joy to you? I bought these adorable gluten-free pumpkin cookies that have little Jack O’Lantern faces on them. And I’m doing my re-watch of Gilmore Girls, which is a wildly problematic and fatphobic show, and ableist.VirginiaIt sure is. But it’s such a good comfort watch too.EmilyIt’s making me feel a little cozy right now. I think my recommendation is just lean into your joy. You don’t need to solve all the world’s problems. And I don’t say that without complete and total awareness of everything going on in the world. I’m not setting that aside. But I’m also saying that if we don’t take time to take off our activist hats and just be for a few moments, we will burn out and be much less useful to the movements that we’re trying to contribute to.So I hope that is taken in the spirit with which it was given, which is not ignoring the world.VirginiaIt’s clear you’re not ignoring the world. But when you’re doing a big, stressful thing, finding the joy in it is so great.Well, my Butter is a more specific, more tangible thing, but it’s very much related to that, which is my 12 year old and I are getting really into doing our nails. And my Butter is bad nail art because I’m terrible at it, but it’s giving me a lot of joy to, like, try to do little designs. I don’t know if you can see on camera.EmilyI’ve been looking at your nails the whole time, and I love the color. It’s my favorite color, but can you describe what’s on it?VirginiaSo I’ve done like, little polka dots, like, so my thumb has all the polka dots in all different colors, and then every finger is like a different color of polka dots. I don’t feel like the colors are translating on screen.EmilyAnd by the way, it’s a bright teal nail polish.VirginiaIt’s a minty green teal color. My 12 year old and I, we watch shows together in the evening after their younger sibling goes to bed. And we just like about once a week, she breaks out her Caboodle, which brings me great joy, as a former 80s and 90s girl, that has all her polishes in it, and we sit there and do our nails. And it’s very low stakes. I work from home, it doesn’t matter what my nails look like. Last night, I tried to do this thing where you put a star shaped sticker on, and then put the polish over it, and then peel off the sticker to have like a little star stencil. It was an utter fail, like I saw it on Instagram. It looked amazing. It looked like trash on my nails. But it’s like, so fun to try something crafty that you can just be bad at and have fun with.EmilyOh, I love that for you. I really miss the days where I would wear like, bright, glittery eyeshadow and stick-on earrings.VirginiaIt is totally bringing me back to my stick on earring years. And I have all these friends who get beautiful nails done, like gels, or they have elaborate home systems. And I’m just, like, showing up to things with, like, a weird cat I painted on my nail that’s like, half chipped off.EmilyI think that’s the right vibe for the moment.VirginiaIt’s super fun and a good bonding activity with tweens who don’t always want to talk to their mom. So it’s nice when we get there.EmilyYou’re reminding me to go hug my mom.VirginiaPlease everyone, go hug your moms, especially if you were once 12 years old! Emily, this was wonderful. Thank you for taking the time to talk with us. Tell folks where we can find you and how we can be supporting your work.EmilyYeah. So I would say the best place to find me is Substack. My Substack is called Words I Wheel By or you can find me on Instagram. But most importantly, I just love connecting and being here to support people wherever they are on their journey. So I hope people will take me up on that.VirginiaThank you, and I always appreciate you in the Burnt Toast comments too. So thanks for being a part of the space with us.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!We are Corinne Fay and Virginia Sole-Smith. These episodes are usually just for our Extra Butter membership tier — but today we’re releasing this one to the whole list. So enjoy! (And if you love it, go paid so you don’t miss the next one!) Episode 212 TranscriptCorinneToday is a family meeting episode. We’re catching up on summer breaks, back to school, and a whole bunch of diet culture news stories that we’ve been wanting to discuss with you all.VirginiaWe’re also remembering how to make a podcast, because we haven’t recorded together in like six weeks. And it didn’t start off great. But I think we’re ready to go now.CorinneSomeone definitely said, “What day is it?”VirginiaIt’s hard coming out of summer mode. I don’t know if you feel that because you don’t have kids, during back to school, but it is a culture shift.CorinneI don’t think I feel the back to school thing as much, but I’m still in Maine, and it’s actively fall. It’s actively getting cold, and I’m just like, what is happening? I feel this pressure to do something, but I’m not sure what? Hibernate?Virginia“Should I buy a notebook? Should I be wearing fleece? I could go either way.” I don’t know. It’s weird. It is the start of fall. So we are moving into fall mindset. But like, don’t rush me, you know? The dahlias bloom till first frost. That’s my summer.CorinneSummer is so brief.VirginiaI’m having a lot of clothing feelings right now. I am not in a good place getting dressed, and it is for sure weather related, shoulder season-related. I’m in my annual conundrum of when do the Birkenstocks go away? When must our toes be covered for polite society? Am I showing arms? I just I don’t even know how to get dressed. I hate all my clothes. Everything’s terrible.CorinneI think this is part of what I’m feeling. I don’t have enough warm clothes and I also don’t want to buy another pair of sweatpants.VirginiaAnd you’re traveling. So you’re like, “I have warm clothes at home.” Didn’t bring them because you didn’t understand, even though you grew up in Maine and should remember that fall starts quite early there.CorinneI need to get it tattooed on my body. Bring a sweater, bring sweatpants.VirginiaWell, to be fair for this Maine trip, you were really focused on your sister’s wedding. You had your nephew. You’ve had a lot going on.CorinneI was very focused on August, and really not thinking about September.VirginiaWill we even exist after? I mean, that’s how it always is when you’re gearing up for a big event, the post-event doesn’t exist.And I don’t know if you do the thing where you’re like, well, I can deal with that after the big event. And then suddenly it’s after the big event. You’re like, well, now there’s 47 things I need to deal with.CorinneI absolutely do that. Now I’m like, wait. How and when do I get back to New Mexico? Am I going back to New Mexico ever? In which case maybe I do need to buy sweatpants?VirginiaIt’s so hard. Even without a wedding —I feel like all summer, because I have pretty skeleton childcare and I’m wanting to take time off, and it’s a privilege that our job allows some flexibility like that, so when I get requests to, like, do a podcast, do a special thing. I’m like, “Talk to me in September. I can’t do it this summer. Summer mode Virginia can’t do anything extra!” And now I’ve just spent the week saying no to lots of things, because September me can’t do it either. That was folly. I should have just said no the first time!That’s one of those life lessons I’m always relearning that’s really funny. If it’s not an instant yes, it’s a no. And I so often fall into the trap of it’s not an instant yes, so let me kick that can down the curb a little bit, and then then I feel ruder because they come back and I’m like, no, I’m sorry. Actually, we were never going to do that.CorinneAs someone who’s been on the other side of that where, like, I’ll reach out to someone for the Style Questionnaire, and they’ll be like, “Oh, can you ask me in two months?” And then when I reach out in two months, and they’re like, “No.”VirginiaTotally. I’m on the other side of it all the time when we’re booking podcast guests. So I’m completely aware of how shitty it feels. So I have a resolution. Summer Virginia just has to say no to things and not push it to Fall Virginia. Everyone hold me accountable next summer, because I’m so sorry to everybody I’ve said no to this week, but September is a real intense parenting month. There are just a lot of moving parts.I get 62 emails a day from the school. The middle school just announced back to school night will be tomorrow. They told us yesterday! One cool thing is, my older kid is in seventh grade now, so I no longer have to scramble for babysitters, which is a real achievement unlocked. Although she’s going to realize at some point that she should increase her rates with me.CorinneOh, you pay her!VirginiaFor stuff where I’m going to be out of the house and need her to put her sister to bed. It’s one thing, if I’m like, “I’m going to the store, you guys don’t want to come.” Fine. You can doodle around at home. And it’s not even really babysitting. She’s going to ignore her the whole time. But I’m going to be out from 6 to 8pm tomorrow night. I need her to actually make sure her younger sibling gets in pajamas and brushes teeth and, moves towards bed. I’m not expecting them to be in bed when I get home, but I would like them to not be nowhere close.CorinneThat’s really sweet.VirginiaPlus we have some big stuff in the works for both Burnt Toast and Big Undies, which we cannot discuss just yet. Yes, I am actively teasing it for you all.CorinneYou’re going to bring that up now?! I feel like we should mention it at the end.VirginiaI think we can mention it whenever we feel like? I think they’re probably like, “Why are they both doing reader surveys? What’s going on?” And we can’t say yet, but there’s something going on, and it’s also requiring a lot of our time and attention.CorinneWe’re really busy. But I think it’s going to be really good, and everyone’s going to love it.VirginiaIn the meantime, though: What are we wearing? Real talk, what are we wearing to get through this weird it’s not summer, it’s not fall, it’s some hybrid state. Are you still wearing open toed shoes? Sandals?CorinneNo, I’m not.VirginiaOkay. Should I stop, too?CorinneI mean, I’m only not because I’m cold. It depends on if you’re cold. I also think now is kind of the perfect time for socks with sandals.VirginiaMost of my sandals are something between my toes style. CorinneOh, I was thinking, like, socks with Birkenstocks.VirginiaAh! I do have some of the two strap Birkenstocks, and I don’t tend to wear them a lot in summer. Maybe I should experiment!CorinneI feel like, when you wear socks with the two strap Birkenstocks, they become really cozy.VirginiaI don’t wear them a lot in summer because I don’t have particularly wide feet, and they’re a little wide on me. But the sock would solve for that! And they would be cozy… all right, I’m going to experiment with this, as part of my shoulder season style.CorinneI’m still figuring out my fall must haves, which is one of my favorite topics. Although I will say I feel like this year I’ve seen a lot of people posting like, “I don’t want to hear about back to school, or I don’t want to hear about fall fashion.”VirginiaI have terrible news for people about this podcast. CorinneI feel it’s very light hearted. It could be literally anything like, who cares? We are entering fall, so…VirginiaTime is passing.CorinneI am getting cold. I do want to put on socks with my sandals and sweatshirts.VirginiaTrigger warning for anyone who is not available for a fall fashion conversation.CorinneMaybe by the time this comes out, people will be ready.I know this is like florals for spring, but I’m feeling for fall… brown pants.VirginiaWait, what? You’re blowing my mind? You’ve been feeling brown for a little while. CorinneBrown has been ramping up. I’m wearing brown pants right now.VirginiaIs it one of your colors, as a true spring?CorinneWell, I do think there are definitely some camels. And I think brown is preferable to black. So I’m thinking brown pants instead of black pants.VirginiaOh, I don’t even know what I’m thinking about pants. I’m thinking frustration with pants. I have my one pair of jeans that I reliably wear. I think I need to order another pair in case they stop making them. I’m at a scarcity mindset point with those Gap jeans. I mean, they aren’t going to stop making them. They’ve had them for years, but I just feel like I need an insurance policy.CorinneDo you fit other Gap pants, or just the jeans?VirginiaI only buy that one pair of jeans. I mean, I generally try not to shop at the Gap because they do not have a plus size section.CorinneBut they do have some really cute stuff.VirginiaIt’s gross though! Make it bigger.CorinneIf it fits you, maybe you should buy it.VirginiaCorinne is like, “Or counterpoint, don’t take a stand.”CorinneI’m always sending links to my straight-size sister for stuff at the Gap that I think she should buy.VirginiaThey do have some really cute stuff, but it infuriates me that Old Navy can make plus sizes, and Gap cannot, and Banana Republic really cannot. It’s just like, hello, class system, capitalism. It’s so revolting.CorinneOh, my God. Do you know what else I’m feeling outraged about? I went thrift shopping here a couple weeks ago, and I found some vintage Land’s End that was in sizes that they don’t make anymore.VirginiaWow, that’s rude.CorinneIt was a 4X! So they used to be way more 26/28 or 28/30. So they also, at some point, kind of cut back.VirginiaThey do, at least legitimately have a section called plus size, though.CorinneThey do, but it clearly used to be bigger.VirginiaNo, no, no. I’m not saying it’s great. I am wearing my favorite joggers a lot, because I think I’m really resisting the shift back to hard pants.CorinneHow do you feel about trousers, like a pleated trouser kind of pant?VirginiaIs that comfortable for working from home? A pleated trouser?CorinneWell, I feel like they’re comfortable because they’re kind of baggy but narrower at the bottom, you know?VirginiaI do love a tapered ankle. I also unpaused my Nuuly. And I did get a blue corduroy pair of pants from them that it hasn’t been quite cold enough to wear because shoulder seasons. Corduroy, to me is like a real like we are fully in cold weather fabric. And when it’s 50 in the morning, but 75 by lunchtime, am I going to be hot in corduroys? I guess I should just start wearing them and see.CorinneAre they jeans style? VirginiaThey’re slightly cropped so that’s another reason to wear them now, while I can still have bare ankles. They’re slightly cropped and slightly flared, and they’re like a royal blue corduroy.They’re Pilcro, which is an Anthropologie brand and I know we feel gross about Anthropologie. But when it comes to pants, I think Corinne is saying we can’t have moral stances because pants are so hard to find. Other things, yes.CorinneIt’s just hard.VirginiaI’m not excited about clothes right now. I want to feel more excited. Maybe I need to think about what my fall must haves are. Maybe I need to make a pin board or something.CorinneI think that’s a good idea. Is there anything you’re feeling excited about? I remember the last episode you were talking about those Imbodhi pants.VirginiaOh yeah. They’ve really become lounge around the house pants, and they’re great, but they’re very thin. Imbodhi feels like a brand you could not wear once it gets cold.Although, the jumpsuit I have from them in periwinkle—which does feel like a very summery color to me—I also got black. And over the summer it felt a little too black jumpsuit. It felt like too formal or something. But I’ve been enjoying it as a transition piece. I am still wearing it with sandals. I think it would look cute with maybe my Veja sneakers, though, and then layering over my denim shirt from Universal Standard, like open over it.I’m glad we’re talking about this, because that’s what I’m going to wear to back to school night tomorrow night, which is a high pressure dressing occasion.CorinneI can see that.VirginiaYou don’t want to look like you tried too hard, but you also don’t want to look like you came in pajamas. Lots of yoga moms, a lot of pressure. Okay, I’m going to wear that black jumpsuit. I’m glad we talked about that. That’s been a good transition piece.CorinneYeah, okay, well, speaking of transitions, I want to ask you about something else. Are you familiar with the Bechdel Test?VirginiaYes.CorinneDon’t you think we should have a Bechdel test for anti-fatness? And/or diets? Like, does this piece of culture have a fat character who’s not the bad guy, or on a weight loss journey, or being bullied for their size?[Post-recording note: Rebecca Bodenheimer reached out after this episode aired to let us know she wrote about this exact concept for the LA Times in 2020. Read her excellent piece here!]VirginiaOohhh… OK, so what would our terms be? They can’t be the fat villain.CorinneWell, I feel like there’s one list for anti fatness, and one would be a piece of culture or whatever that doesn’t discuss dieting or weight loss. And I don’t know if it should all be one under one Bechdel test umbrella, or if it should be two different tests.VirginiaI feel like it’s related. Wait, I need to look up the actual Bechdel Test criteria.CorinneIt’s like, does the movie have two female characters talking about something other than a man.VirginiaThe work must feature at least two women.They must talk to each other. And their conversation must be about something other than a man.I was just watching Your Friends and Neighbors, that new John Hamm show about super rich people stealing from each other, and it’s very entertaining, but it fails the Bechdel test so dramatically. It’s got Amanda Peet in it! She’s so smart and funny, and all she does is talk about her ex husband and how much she loves him. And I’m just like, fail, fail, fail. Anyway, okay, I love this idea.CorinneSo it’s like, does it have a fat character?VirginiaWait, I think it should have more than one fat character.CorinneThat bar is too high. I feel like we have to be able to name something that passes the test. And what are we calling the test? The Burnt Toast Test?VirginiaWe can workshop names in the comments.CorinneWe need a famous fat person to name it after, maybe.VirginiaWell, I guess Allison Bechdel named it after herself. So it could be the Fay test, because you did this. The Corinne Fay test.CorinneOh, God.So it has to have one fat character, they have to talk about something other than weight loss, and they can’t be the villain.VirginiaI would like them not to be the sidekick, too. I think it’s a central fat character.CorinneCan we name anything that passes?VirginiaShrill by Lindy West. And Too Much. Well, Lena Dunham doesn’t totally pass the Bechdel Test, but she passes the fat test.CorinneSee, it gets very complicated. This is intersectionality!VirginiaWe strive for an intersectional world where the shows pass all the tests. This is such an interesting topic. I love this.CorinneI was also thinking about it because on my drive out, I read two of these Vera Stanhope mysteries. Have you read any of these?VirginiaI have not.CorinneThe main detective woman is fat, and I feel like it’ mostly fine. Like, 90% of the time they’re just talking about her, she’s fat, and she’s sloppy. She’s a sloppy fat person. And then, like, occasionally, there’ll be like, a sentence or two where I’m like, Ooh, I didn’t like that.VirginiaIt’s so deflating when you have something that’s seeming good, and then it takes a turn on you real fast.CorinneSo would that pass the the fat Bechdel Test? Or whatever? Probably would.VirginiaBecause it’s as good as we can get.CorinneShe’s the main character and not talking about dieting, really.VirginiaYeah, wait, so where does it fall apart for you?CorinneI should have brought an example, but I feel like occasionally there will be narration about her, and it’s suddenly like, “her body was disgusting,” you know? VirginiaOh God! I was thinking she maybe lumbered, or she sat heavily, or something. And you’re like—CorinneYes. She sat heavily, that kind of thing. And I’m like, okay, sure.But occasionally there’s just a twinge where I’m like, oh, you do kind of hate fat people.VirginiaI would then like that author to read Laura Lippman’s work. Because Laura Lippman—regular Burnt Toasty! Hi, Laura!—has been doing such good work as a thin author to really work on her fat representation. And I just read Murder Takes a Vacation, which is one of Laura’s most recent novels, and it’s such a good read. Her protagonist, Mrs. Blossom, I believe was previously a side character in other novels who now has her own book. And the way she writes about body stuff in there is like… Laura’s been doing the work. She’s been really doing the work. It for sure, passes the Fay Fat Test.CorinneThat’s awesome.VirginiaSo everyone check that out. And I would like Ann Cleeves to be reading Laura Lippman.Should we talk about airplanes? Are you in a safe space to talk about airplane feelings?CorinneSure. Yes.VirginiaCorinne was just quoted in The Washington Post, which is very exciting, alongside Tigress Osborne, friend of the show, Executive Director of NAAFA, about how Southwest Airlines is changing their passenger of size policy. Do you want to brief us on what’s happening there?CorinneSo Southwest has had a policy in which a “customer of size,” meaning a person who doesn’t fit between two plane arm rests, can book two seats and be refunded for the second seat. Or you could show up at the airport day of, and ask for two seats. And not have to pay up front and then be refunded.And in the past couple of months, this policy has somehow gotten really wobbly. I’ve heard all these anecdotal stories about people showing up at the airport and having Southwest tell them, “You’re not going to be able to do this anymore.” Like, don’t expect to show up and be able to book a second seat. You need to do it in advance. Blah, blah, blah.Now Southwest has come out and said they’re changing the policy. They’re also implementing assigned seating, which they didn’t used to have. So going forward, you are going to have to book two seats in advance, and you will only be refunded if there are empty seats on the plane. Which, when are there ever empty seats?VirginiaThere are never empty seats on the plane? Never happens.I don’t understand, because you needed two seats before, you still need two seats. So why does it matter whether there’s an empty seat or not? My brain breaks trying to follow the logic.CorinneI think the logic says like they could have sold the second seat to someone else.VirginiaBut then they’re not selling seats that work for people who are paying money to be there. Like, they’re taking your money, but if you can’t fit on the plane, then they just took your money. It’s so shady,CorinneAnd people who don’t need a whole seat don’t pay less.VirginiaOver the age of two, your children do not get discounts for the fact that, they are using a third of a seat. You pay the same price for a child. CorinneYep. It’s really sad, and it’s making life harder and sadder for a lot of people.VirginiaI’m curious if another airline will step up on this. I think NAAFA has been doing a good job of making noise about this. I think people are putting pressure on them. It will be interesting if someone else realizes this is like a marketing opportunity.CorinneI think, they absolutely will not.VirginiaWell, I’m not naive enough to think someone would do it just because it’s the right thing to do. But I’m hoping maybe one of Southwest’s direct competitors would realize it’s an opportunity.CorinneBut I think that Southwest previously was the that airline. I think they were using that to their advantage, and now I think they’ve just been like, “It’s not worth it.” I think Alaska has the same policy where you can book two seats, and then if there is an empty seat, they’ll refund it.VirginiaWell that’s great because Alaska flies so many places, people need to go.CorinneWell, if you’re in the if you’re in the part of the country where I live, they do! But.VirginiaOh! That’s good to know.CorinneI think they’re more on a competition level with Southwest versus like United or something, right? I don’t think United or Delta even has a customer of size policy.VirginiaThey’ve never cared.CorinneThere’s no way to even book a second ticket for yourself, even if you want to just straight up pay for it.VirginiaIt leaves you the option of figuring out if you can afford business class to have a bigger seat. And that makes flying so much more expensive.CorinneRight? And it’s also just like, does business class fit everyone? Probably not.VirginiaWell, we’re mad about that, but I did, like seeing you in the Washington Post article saying smart things. So thank you. Thanks your advocacy.Let’s see what else has been going on… The Guardian had this interesting piece, which I’m quoted in a little bit, by Andrea Javor. She’s articulating something I’ve seen a few people starting to talk about, which is the experience of being on Ozempic and not losing weight from it.And I think this is an interesting kind of under the radar piece of the whole GLP1s discourse. Some folks are non-responders, whether because they stay on a lower dose by choice, and it improves their numbers, but they don’t really lose weight, or some folks just don’t really lose weight on it. Her piece really articulates her feelings of shame and failure that this thing that’s supposed to be a silver bullet didn’t work for her.CorinneWhen I started reading the piece, I was extremely confused, because the the author has diabetes, but type one diabetes, and these drugs don’t help with type one diabetes. She eventually goes on it, just for weight loss. So what it didn’t work for was weight loss, And I think it actually may have ended up helping with her, like A1C, and stuff. I agree that it does a good job of looking at the feelings that come along with that. And I do think, this does happen, and it’s not being talked about as as much as it’s happening probably.VirginiaIt feels important to highlight it in this moment where we have Serena Williams talking, about her husband’s telehealth company and promoting her use of GLP1s. And we had a great chat on Substack chat about the whole Serena Williams of it all. So I won’t rehash that whole discourse here. I also think that’s a conversation where I want to hear from Black women. Chrissy King wrote an incredible piece. I also really appreciated the conversation that Sam Sanders, Zach Stafford and Saeed Jones had on Vibe Check about it. So, I don’t need to get into Serena’s personal choices. But it does mean, we have another huge, very admired celebrity pushing into the conversation again to say, “This is this magic trick. This is the thing I was always looking for. It finally worked for me” And we are all vulnerable to that messaging. So it’s important to read stories like this one and understand oh, it really doesn’t actually work for everybody. Setting aside whether we think people should be pursuing weight loss, this isn’t necessarily going to be guaranteed, amazing results. CorinneAnother interesting article that I thought maybe would want to mention is the the one in The Cut about ARFID.VirginiaThis was a great cover story in New York Magazine. The headline is The Monster at the Dinner Table, and it’s basically just encapsulating that ARFID has really been on the rise in recent years, and I think a lot of that is just because now we know what it is and we can diagnose it.But it did include a pretty interesting discussion of what causes kids to lose the instinct to eat, what things get in the way of it. Like, it can be trauma, it can be a feature of autism. It can be a choking experience, all sorts of different things.CorinneARFID is one of those conditions that I feel like I barely knew about before TikTok, and then I’ve just seen so much stuff about it on Tiktok.VirginiaIt only became a diagnosis in 2013, so it’s very, very new. My kiddo would have been diagnosed with it, if it was more fully in the vernacular at that point, but it wasn’t. So we were just told it was a “pediatric feeding disorder” type of thing. But it was very vague.I think it’s great it’s getting more attention. Both for kids and adults. It can be such a source of anxiety and shame for parents. It is so much work. It is very difficult, and it’s harder than it should be because of diet culture, because of all the pressure put on parents to feed our kids certain ways. The backlash against ultraprocessed foods is really not helping anyone navigate ARFID. I can’t underscore that enough, really not helping. No one needs to feel shame about your kid living on chicken nuggets or frozen burritos or whatever it is.CorinneThe amount of stigma against people who eat certain ways is nuts.VirginiaIt’s nuts and it’s sad.CorinneYeah it’s socially isolating.VirginiaIt is harder to share, right? It’s very socially isolating, and it’s sad for the people around them. Anytime you’re navigating eating together with someone with food restrictions, it does create barriers and extra work and more you have to navigate.But if we didn’t have that layer of stigma over it, where it’s like, it’s probably the mom’s fault, if only they like more whole foods at home, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, if we didn’t have all of that, you could focus just on the logistics are hard enough. You don’t need the shame.So many sad topics. Airlines are terrible. Virginia doesn’t have any clothes to wear. ARFID is sad. Do we have anything to bring it up?CorinneWell, our exciting news? VirginiaOh, right! We are working on some very fun things.It is exciting to think about new directions that Burnt Toast and Big Undies are going in. So stay tuned. Don’t worry, it’s not a reality TV show.ButterVirginiaOkay, my Butter is adjacent to the wardrobe frustration conversation. Which is: I have started cutting the collars off a lot of my shirts.To back up: Last month, I’m on vacation in Cape Cod with my sister, and she comes down looking extremely cute. She’s wearing a graphic tee tucked into a long maxi skirt. And I was like, “This whole thing is delightful. What’s happening here?” And she was like, “Well, this shirt was actually too small for me, but I realized if I just cut the collar off it, it opened up the neck enough that then the shirt, the whole shirt fit better.” And she could still wear this cute shirt. And she said she got the idea from watching Somebody Somewhere, because Bridgett Everett cuts the collars off all her shirts.CorinneOh yes! That was my signature look when I was 18. A Hanes T-shirt with the collar cut off.VirginiaI’m dressing like 18-year-old Corinne, and I’m here for it! But I’ve realized, frequently a place that something doesn’t fit me is my neck. I’ve talked about feelings about chins and necks. I have many complicated feelings about chins and necks. This is one place where my fatness sits. So the shirt might otherwise fit okay, but it doesn’t fit my neck, and then it feels tight and it’s a miserable feeling. So at the end of our trip, I wanted to buy a Cape Cod sweatshirt, because there were some really cute sweatshirts. But they were not size inclusive. So I was like, can I make this extra large work? And it was a little small, but I cut the collar off, and now it’s okay.And then I did it with my old Harris Walz T-shirt from the election. It was a cute stripe. I just really liked the stripe. And I was like, Oh, I could still wear this if I get the collar off it. And a couple other things. I’ve just been, like, cutting collars off shirts that are uncomfortable. I’m into it!CorinneI think that’s a great Butter. I’m into any kind of clothes modification that will make you wear stuff that you wouldn’t otherwise wear.VirginiaIt was a good solution for a couple of things in my closet that I did like, but I was not reaching for. And now I’ll use them again. And the key I figured out, because I experimented with a couple ways to cut it, is really just cut right along the seam of the sewed on collar. You might think that’s going to not open it up enough, but it will stretch once you start wearing it. you could always cut more if you needed to, but that seems to have done it for me.CorinneOkay, well, I want to recommend a recipe, and I feel like I possibly mentioned this before. I’m staying with my mom, and we’ve been making this recipe from the New York Times called stuffed zucchini, and it’s a really good recipe for if you have a surplus of zucchini, which a lot of people do this time of year. You kind of scoop out the middle of a zucchini and then mix some of that together with, like, sausage, tomatoes, basil, and then put it back in the zucchini and bake it with, like, some crispy breadcrumbs, and it’s so good. I can literally, eat a whole zucchini in one sitting. Highly recommend.VirginiaThat sounds amazing. All right. Well, that makes me a little more excited about the season.CorinneYeah, it is a very good time of year for eating. We should have talked more about food maybe?VirginiaThat is a good point. Our tomatoes in the garden are going gangbusters. I’ve made some great sauces. I’m having a lot of cheese and tomato sandwiches. toasted and not toasted. Delightful.Well, this was a good family meeting catch up. I think we’ve covered a lot of ground. I’m excited to hear what folks are feeling about their dressing issues, and airlines, all the stuff we got into today.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my guest is Denise Hamburger, founder and director of Be Real USA. Be Real is a nonprofit that imagines a world where every child can grow up with a healthy relationship to food and their body. They work with body image researchers, psychologists, teachers and public health officials to design curricula about nutrition and body image that are weight neutral, and inclusive of all genders, abilities, races and body sizes.So many of you reach out to me every September to say, “Oh my God, you're not going to believe what my kid is learning in health class.” Food logs, fitness trackers, other diet tools are far too common in our classrooms— especially in middle and high school health class. Denise is here to help us understand why those assignments are so harmful and talk about what parents and educators can do differently. This episode is free — so please, share it with the parents, teachers and school administrators in your communities! But if you value this conversation, consider supporting our work with a paid subscription. Burnt Toast is 100% reader- and listener-supported. We literally can’t do this without you.PS. You can always listen to this pod right here in your email, where you’ll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts! And if you enjoy today’s conversation, please tap the heart on this post — likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substack’s Notes, so that’s a super easy, free way to support the show!Two Resources You’ll Want From This Episode: BeReal Let’s Eat Curriculum is attached.And here’s a roundup of everything I’ve written on diet culture in schools:The Burnt Toast Guide to Diet Culture in SchoolsEpisode 211 TranscriptDeniseWell, this all started I would say about 10 years ago. Actually, about 12 years ago. I was an environmental lawyer in my first career—that's what I'm trained to do. I went to law school, was practicing in big law firms. Which has nothing to do with body image, except I was an environmental lawyer who weighed herself every day and got her mood affected by the number on the scale for 40 years. So that's four decades.VirginiaSo many times getting on a scale.DeniseI really felt like I didn’t want anyone else, especially young women today, to waste the amount of time and energy that I had wasted distracting them from what they need to be doing in their lives, figuring out their own person possibilities. That’s really what you’re here to do. And it takes us away from what we’re supposed to be doing.With that in mind, I went back to school at the University of Chicago, and I was thinking of get a social work degree and doing something with body image. But then I wrote a paper on my own body image for one of my classes at the School of Social Work and I found 50 years of research on body image. And then 30 years of discussion and research on how to prevent eating disorders and body dissatisfaction. Like, wow, there is so much out there, so much research on this. But I haven’t heard any of this. It feels like it’s not making its way into resources that people can use.So I started speaking on it, and I was speaking to middle-aged women, and I thought the message that we all would really benefit from would be everybody’s got this. Because I feel like, especially my generation, where we didn’t really talk about how we felt about our bodies. I’m at the tail end of the Baby Boom. So I’m 62 and I felt that people in my generation—again, I was 50 at the time—weren’t in touch with their own feelings on body image. After talking about this for so many years, younger generations have access to it I think a lot more. But I felt like we could all benefit from knowing that everybody’s got it—so kind of a common humanity. It’s not our fault, which helps with the shame around it.So everyone has it, it’s not our fault, and society has given it to us. And I think that this is something that would resonate with my generation. So I started speaking in local libraries and community houses to women my age, and quickly learned that it is really hard to undo decades worth of thought patterns and feelings around food, body and eating. People came to hear me talk about body image, and I think, in general, when I started out, they were hoping I had a new diet.VirginiaOh, I’m sure they were. I’m sure they were like, “Oh, we’re going to go hear her talk about how to love your body by making it smaller!”DeniseAbsolutely. And all of the women, because they were women in my workshops, were starting to talk about their daughters. They’re saying that my daughter’s got this, and she’s coming home and saying this. Then in one of my audiences, I had a health teacher at my local high school. There was a health teacher who came and said—this is about 2015—you should hear what the young girls are saying. They’ve got this new thing called Instagram and and they’re seeing pictures of, “perfect” looking people and feeling bad about themselves or feeling flawed in comparison.So she said, “What resources are there for for the students in my class?” And I said, there has got to be something because there is 50 years’ of research there, there has got to be something fabulous for you. And I called the professors listed on the the studies. The granddaddy of the industry, Michael Levine, I called him up. I said, “Michael, just tell me, what can I recommend to these teachers?” And he’s like, “I don’t know. I don’t know. We don’t have it. It’s not there. Even though the research is there.”So there was a curriculum created for high risk kids. It needed to be given by facilitators called The Body Project. And I called one of the professors who wrote The Body Project and said, “Listen, I’d like to give this tool to a teacher for universal,” which means giving it to everybody in the classroom, and and she wants to bring it to her high school, but it looks like you need to be trained. And it was a script. The Body Project was a script. And this teacher said to me, I’m not reading a script in a classroom. You’re not going to get a high school teacher to read a script.VirginiaYeah. I would imagine high school students sitting in a classroom aren’t going to respond to someone just reading a script at them.DeniseNobody wants to hear it. It’s not useful. It wasn’t created for that use. So this professor, Carolyn Becker, had actually written a paper on how the academics need to work with stakeholders to make sure that their research makes it to the public. And I said, I’m calling you. I’m a stakeholder. What do you need? And she said, “We need somebody to translate it.” And I said, “I’m your girl.”VirginiaI mean, it’s wild that the research has been there. We’ve known what works, or what strategies to use for so long, and yet it’s not in the pedagogy, it’s not in the classrooms.So you started with the body image curriculum, BodyKind. And now this year, you’ve just released your weight neutral nutrition curriculum for middle and high school students, called Let’s Eat.Full disclosure: I got to be a early reader of the of the curriculum and offer a few notes. It was already amazing when I read it.DeniseThank you.VirginiaI did not have to add a lot at any by any means, but it was really cool to see the development process, and see where you ended up with it. It’s really remarkable. So let’s start by talking about why nutrition. You’ve done the body image thing, that’s really powerful. Why was nutrition the next logical place to go?DeniseI have spoken at this point to probably 10,000 teachers. And they’re always asking me, what nutrition curriculum do you recommend? Same deal. There’s not one out thereAnd I had asked one of my interns to give me her textbook on it, like what are you learning about nutrition? And in my intern’s textbook, it was 2018, you saw encapsulated the entire problem of what’s wrong with nutrition curriculum.They are asking the children to weigh and measure themselves, and they’re asking the children to count calories in different ways, and to track their food. Food logs. Again, these were best practices in the 90s and and 2000s on how to teach nutrition. So this is all over the nutrition curriculum.Then, of course, they’re talking about good and bad foods, which foods can you eat, which foods you can’t you eat, and all of these things in the research we know cause disordered eating and eating disorders, they all contribute to it. I have a list of probably nine research papers that point to each of these things and tell you why these are bad ideas to have a nutrition class.And we also know there have been two papers written, where they polled students or young people coming in for eating disorder treatment and asked them, what do you think triggered your eating disorder? And around 14% in both studies said, “My healthy eating curriculum at school was where I started getting this obsession.” So you know, what’s out there hasn’t been helpful, and even worse, has been part of the problem in our society.[Post-recording note: Here’s Mallary Tenore Tarpley writing about this research in the Washington Post, and quoting Oona Hanson!]VirginiaIt’s so rooted in our moral panic around “the childhood obesity epidemic.” Educators, public health officials, everyone feels like, that’s the thing we have to be worried about if we’re going to talk about kids and food. It all has to be framed through that lens. And what you are arguing is: That weight-centered approach causes harm. We can see from the data that it’s not “fixing” the obesity epidemic. Kids aren’t thinner than they were 40 years ago. So it didn’t work. And it’s having all these unintended ripple effects, or sometimes, I would say, intended ripple effects.DeniseYes, exactly. Studies on nutrition curriculum have shown that over 11 years, teaching diet and exercise did not do anything, in two age groups. One was elementary/middle school, another one was a high school group. And they found no changes in body size or nutritional knowledge and and only the effects of what they call weight stigma. Which is just anti-fat bias. So it only causes harm. And these meta studies were from “obesity researchers,” right? So they are even acknowledging we don’t know how to prevent obesity.VirginiaSo you could see very clearly why the current landscape is harmful. How did you think about how to design a better curriculum?DeniseWe had been working on the back burner on an intuitive eating for students type of curriculum. Because the question I get from my teachers is, “What should I be teaching?” So we had been kind of working on an intuitive eating curriculum, and then one of my ambassadors, Selena Salfen, she works in Ramsey County Public Health in Minnesota, said, “Hey, we’re looking for a nutrition curriculum. Why don’t we do one together?”It really turned into how to eat, not what to eat. So we started working on body cues and building trust with your food. And then started really focusing on empowering the student as an authority on their own eating behavior, teaching them how to learn from their own eating experiences. Which is part of responsive feeding. And Ellyn Satter’s Division of Responsibility In Feeding. So we have pieces from all of these. We are empowering students to be experts on their own eating.VirginiaIt’s also so much more respectful of students’ cultural backgrounds, as opposed to the way we learned, like the food pyramid or MyPlate, saying “this is what your plate should look like.” And that doesn’t look like many plates around the world. That’s not what dinner is in lots of families. Your curriculum is saying, let’s empower students to be the experts is letting them own their own experience.DeniseAbsolutely, and trust their own experience. And trust themselves. And they don’t have to go outside of themselves. We want to teach them to act in their own best interests. That’s part of self-care, teaching them to take care of themselves. They need to learn it somewhere.So if you do what they’ve done for years and tell them you need to cut out sugar and you need to cut out carbs, or you need to get this this many grams of protein, it leaves off all of the wonderful parts of eating that we get to experience many times a day, which is the joy, the pleasure, the sharing of food. So in our curriculum, we ask the kids, what do you do in your culture around food? How do you celebrate in your culture with food? What do you eat?We get the discussion going with them and allowing them to feel pride in how their family celebrates. And so it’s really bringing in all these other aspects that we experience with food every day into talking about food. And we talk about pleasure, what do you like, what food do you like, what food do you enjoy? And we want them to be able to hold what foods they like, what their needs are that day.So you talked about MyPlate, MyPlate is stagnant. It always looks the same. But your nutritional needs change every day. If I’m sick, my needs around nourishment are different from if I’ve got a soccer match after school that day. So we’re trying to teach them to be flexible and really throw perfectionism out the window, because it’s unhelpful in any area of life, but especially around eating, especially around food.VirginiaI’m wondering what you’re hearing from school districts who are worrying about the federal guidelines. Because they do need to be in compliance with certain things. DeniseSo we spent a long time with the Food and Nutrition guidelines. The CDC food and nutrition guidelines, and we spent a long time with the HECAT standards, which are the health curriculum standards. We know that teachers are trying to match up what they’re teaching to the federal standards and the state standards. Because every state has their own discussion of this, and they write their own rules. Usually they look like the federal standards, but we find with food and nutrition, sometimes they go off. You’ll get somebody on the committee who hates soda, and will write 10 rules around soda. So every state has their own idiosyncratic rules around it as well.VirginiaI mean, on the flip side, that means there have been opportunities for advocacy. For example in Maryland, Sarah Ganginis was able to make real progress on her state standards. But yes, the downside is you’re gonna have the anti-soda committee showing up.DeniseTotally. And half of the country. We really tried to hit the big standards. I’m actually thumbing through the curriculum right now. We have two pages of the HECAT model food nutrition lessons and which ones this curriculum hits. And then if you’re interested in talking about some of the others — like some of them really want to talk about specifically sugary drinks— we give links in the curriculum to discussions that we agree with. So we may mention sugary drinks in a little piece of the curriculum, but if you want to get the article or the discussion on it that frames it the way we’d like to see it framed, we’ve got links in the curriculum for that.VirginiaSo tell me about the response so far. What are you hearing from teachers and districts?DeniseThe biggest response I’m getting is, “It’s a breath of fresh air.” It’s safe, as you say. And for the teachers out there that are familiar with all of the things that we’ve been teaching that haven’t been working, this is important. And I just want to say to all the health teachers who have been teaching nutrition out there because this is the way we’ve taught it for years: This is how it’s been done. But when you know better, you do better. And that’s the point we’re at now. I know people have been weighing and measuring kids and telling them to count calories for decades because that was best practices at the time. But we’re beyond that. The research has figured out that that’s not the best practices going forward.VirginiaThat’s right.DeniseWe had about 50 teachers and 250 students trial it. We get the experts to say everything we want to say in the curriculum, and we put it in there, and then let’s say that takes nine months. We have another nine months where we have expert teachers like Sarah weighing in on the curriculum. Telling us what happens when she teaches it in class with her and the students. What would you like to see different? Even down to activities. How would this activity work better? So we spent another nine months making sure that the teachers and the students like it, can relate to it, and that the activities are what are working in class.So that’s an extra step after some of the other research curriculum that we really want to make sure it’s user friendly and the students like it. We got a lot of feedback. We did two rounds of that.Now we released it to the public after we had a masters student write a thesis on all of the the data we collected, and felt very comfortable that it does no harm.VirginiaIt’s been tested.DeniseYeah, it’s been tested. It’s feasible and acceptable. Now we’re going to go and do the official feasibility and acceptability tests, like we’ve done on BodyKind with Let’s Eat and then take it to schools. We use the University of North Carolina’s IRB. We use the Mind Body Lab there, run by Dr. Jennifer Webb, and we are going to be doing research on Let’s Eat. We’ve got the Portland Public Schools, and then we’ve got a school district in Maryland, in Arundel County, that we’ve identified and that we’re working with to test students. And then, we’ll hopefully do an official test, write an official paper, as we’ve done with BodyKind.VirginiaAnd I should also mention, you’re making this resource free! Schools don’t have to pay for this, which I think everyone who’s ever tried to make any change in the school district of any kind knows, if it costs money, it’s harder to get done. So that’s great. DeniseYou know, it’s so funny. I’ve been speaking on this for years. I mean, we’ve been in curriculum development for five years, and I always forget to say that! I don’t know why. It’s a free curriculum! I’m a nonprofit. I’ve never been paid. This is such a passion project for me, and I continue to wake up every day energized by the work I’m doing.And the mission of our nonprofit is to get the best, well tested resources out to schools. And we want to remove barriers. And how we remove barriers is offering it for free.VirginiaA lot of our listeners are parents. They’re going to be listening to this thinking, “Okay, I want this in my kid’s school.” How do we do that? What do you recommend parents do? DeniseSo a couple things. We find the best advocate is the person at the school, the wellness professional, charged with curriculum decisions. So there are people in your district whose job it is to make sure that the teachers have the latest and greatest curriculum on nutrition.And they want these resources because they want to make sure that their students get the best resources out there. So it takes a little bit of sleuthing to call up the school, whether it’s the administrator or a health teacher, and figure out who’s that person, who’s the wellness coordinator. It could be a wellness coordinator. It could be a health teacher, who’s responsible for curriculum. Find that person and talk to them. They’re looking for this conversation. It’s part of their job. You could even say I heard about this new curriculum. It’s available for free. And you can hand them the postcard. That’s what I hand out when I speak at conferences. And it’s got a QR code. It describes what this curriculum does. We teach tuned in eating. It describes what tuned in eating does. VirginiaDownload that PDF below to QR code it right from this episode! DeniseYes. So you can send them as a PDF. You can write an email, figure out who the person is, send them the curriculum. Say “I was listening to a podcast, and there’s this great curriculum out there. I’d love you to check it out.”VirginiaI think that feels really doable, it’s a great starting point. What about when a kid comes home and tells a parent “Oh, we did calorie counting today?” Because that’s often how parents start to think about this issue. It kind of lands on their lap. Is it useful to engage directly with the teacher? How do you think about that piece of it? Because obviously, especially the school year is underway, asking a teacher like, hey, can you just change your whole curriculum right on a dime, they probably won’t appreciate that. So, what’s a, better way to think about this advocacy?DeniseI thought you did a great job in your book Fat Talk on giving them scripts, giving parents scripts to walk into the school. You want to be sensitive to how overloaded the health teacher is, the nutrition teacher is. They’re teaching 10 subjects in health that they need to be experts on so, you know, this is just one piece of what they’re teaching.The great thing about nutrition is, most health teachers are teaching nutrition so they’ve got some background in it, and you can just be as sensitive as possible to their time and do as you say in the book, you know, in a in a positive, collaborative way. “I heard about this research, I thought you might be interested,” rather than a critical way. And and again, your kid might not be taking health, they might just be in the school district. So maybe you have this discussion with an administrator, and ask them, who wants to talk to me about this? And ask them, who can I speak to? It could be a guidance counselor. Could be school social worker. You know, this is eating disorder and body dissatisfaction prevention, right? So who, who is interested in this topic?VirginiaWho in the district is working on that and wants to know about this? That’s super helpful.And I’ll also add: One thing I learned in reporting the book and thinking more about the school issue is we do, as parents, always have the right to opt our kids out of the assignments that we know to be harmful. So if you see a calorie counting assignment coming, you can ask for an alternative assignment. You can accept that your kid might get a lower grade because they don’t do it, but that might feel fair.Especially with older kids, I think it’s important to involve them. Like, don’t just swoop in. Never a good idea. They may want to talk to the teacher or you have do it. Work that out with your kid and figure out the best way forward. But I think it’s definitely worth doing that. If your kid’s like, no, don’t talk to the teacher. No, I’m not opting out. You can still have the conversation at home about why this assignment is not aligned with your values, and that’s yes important to do, too.The Burnt Toast Guide to Diet Culture in SchoolsDeniseI also wanted to say, we have an ambassador program at Be Real, and we have 135 ambassadors. What we’ve done with all of the materials we’ve been using for 10 years, which are presentations and worksheets for the presentations. We have frequently asked questions, where I quote you all the time. What do I do with my mother in law, who’s saying this thing? We give them scripts. What do I do when people equate body size with health? What do we do when people assume that everyone could be small if they tried hard enough? We have answers for all of these questions in our materials, frequently asked questions.I have templated the presentations I give. I use the notes, I give the talk track, so my ambassadors can give a talk with a teleprompter if they’re doing it on Zoom. Use the presentation as a teleprompter, and all the accompanying material we have on Canva that the ambassadors can create their own and add to it, and use their own name and picture to give talks and and things like that. We’ve got all of this so people are able to take this resource to their own local area,VirginiaSo they might give this talk to a PTA or a church group or any kind of community organization they’re affiliated with.DeniseAbsolutely. And we’ve been doing this for about seven years, and the last five years, it’s grown tremendously, and we have meetings every quarter. And at the meetings, people say, how do I get into my local school? And someone else will say, you know, I tried the principal and they didn’t answer my phone calls. And then I went and looked up so and so and and then I started out doing this for professional development for health teachers in the state of Illinois. So we also have ways to to be certified as a professional development trainer on this topic. So that’s how I initially got to health teachers. And then they also speak at conferences. So I speak at National SHAPE, which is the health teacher conference, but there are state SHAPE conferences out there that my Ambassadors will go speak at and it’s really how to get all of this material, another way to get it disseminated all throughout the world.VirginiaOh, I love that. Well, we will definitely link in the show notes for anyone who’s interested in becoming about an ambassador. ButterDeniseI am obsessed with Orna Guralnik, she is a psychotherapist who has a show on Showtime called Couples Therapy.VirginiaYes, I’ve been hearing about this.DeniseOh my God, it is so good. I don’t know why I like it so much, but I just binge watched the new season. And I say every time, I’ve got to string it out and enjoy it, but no, it’s impossible. And so I just binge watched the whole season, and as I was preparing for this interview, I just kept Googling what podcast she’s been on.VirginiaThat’s so satisfying. I love when you get a really good rabbit hole to dive down with the show. Another podcast I really enjoy, called Dire Straights , hosted by two writers, Amanda Montei and Tracy Clark-Flory, they just did an episode looking at the history of couples therapy and it actually has a pretty problematic history. Was not always great for women, very much developed as a way to help husbands control unruly wives—but has become other things. But you would enjoy that episode because they talk quite a bit about the show couples therapy and, she’s obviously doing something quite different.DeniseOkay, that’s my next one. Definitely going out and getting that.VirginiaI will also do a TV show butter, because they are so satisfying. I just started watching with my middle schooler a show that’s been off the air for a few years now. It’s called it’s Better Things, starring Pamela Adlon and created by her. It’s about a divorced mom with three daughters. She’s a working actor in LA but it’s just like about their life. It’s very funny. It’s very real and kind of gritty. My middle schooler and I have watched a lot of sitcoms together, and this is definitely a more adult show than we’ve watched before. But it’s still a family show, and it’s just, it’s so so good. It’s just a really incredible authentic portrayal of mothers and daughters. Which, you know, being a mother and a daughter, sometimes I’m like, is this making you like me more? Is this making you appreciate me? Probably not.DeniseHaving raised three kids, I don’t aspire to that anymore.VirginiaNot the goal, not the goal.DeniseJust never going to show up.VirginiaBut it is really sweet bonding in a way that I hadn’t expected. So that is my recommendation.DeniseLovely, lovely, lovely.VirginiaAll right, Denise. Tell folks again, just in case anyone missed it. Where do we find you? Where do we find the curriculums? How do we support your work?DeniseCome to berealusa.org—that’s our website. We have more information on everything I’ve mentioned, on all of the curriculum, on how to become an ambassador, and just more explanation. On the website, we have fact sheets on everything we do. So if you go in, I think on the homepage, you drop down, they’ll say fact sheets. And we also have probably have 10 fact sheets that will give you more information on this. We also talk about why you shouldn’t be taking BMI school. We had a “don’t weigh me in school” campaign about five years ago that kind of went viral. So anyway, that’s all good on our website.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your September Indulgence Gospel!It’s time for a mailbag episode, so we’ll be diving into your questions about:⭐️ How to clap back when people say, “Wow, you’ve changed!” ⭐️ What to do with ageist grandparents? (We’re surprisingly…Team Grandparent on this one?)⭐️ Why it’s so hard to like photos of ourselves!!! ⭐️ Is Back To School (the hype, the myth, the culture)…a diet? And so much more!To hear the full story, you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber.This episode contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast!Episode 210 TranscriptVirginiaCorinne, how are you? What’s going on?CorinneI’m doing good. It’s really nice and cool here, and I’m so happy. It’s like 68.VirginiaIt’s really nice and cool here, too. Listeners of the future: We are recording this in July to be ahead of the game, but it is very September weather, and it’s helping me get in the September mindset for doing this episode.Well and because it’s cooler, I do have some Pants Chat for us to get into. I’m wearing a new pair of pants from Imbodhi, which is the brand that makes that jumpsuit I’m obsessed with. They are called the Sora Wide Leg Pant, and they are basically, like the pants version of the jumpsuit. They have a fold-down waist, and they’re very stretchy, and they are just the most comfortable thing. But I am unclear if I am wearing pants or pajamas?CorinneI’m looking at their website. I don’t know anything about this brand. It looks very similar to Beyond Yoga.VirginiaIt’s very similar to Beyond Yoga. It’s a great brand (and I have a $15 off coupon for listeners!). The quality is really good. But they go up to only 3x. I’m wearing the 1X so I think it’s a legit 3X but, yeah. There are bigger sizes they could be making, and they’ve chosen not to, at this point in time. So this is the Sora Wide-Legged Pants in ribbed oatmeal. They’re the most comfortable thing. But do you see what I mean? They definitely have that “is it pants, or is it pajamas” vibe?CorinneThey’re soft pants.VirginiaAnd I think because they’re wide leg soft pants, they feel more pajama to me. Maybe I’m good with that? Maybe I’m in my pajama pants era?CorinneThat seems reasonable.VirginiaWell, that’s my pants news.CorinneThat’s great pants news.VirginiaLet’s jump into questions.CorinneYes, I will ask the first question.Doesn’t back to school kind of seem like a diet? There are the first day of school photos, the perfect bento box lunches, the school supplies, etc.VirginiaI mean, absolutely. Absolutely, it’s all a diet.CorinneNeed we say more?VirginiaIt is a diet, and it’s a diet I go on every year. We do first day of school photos. My kid’s dad does a letterboard sign with a clever pun about what grade they’re going into. My kids sort of hate the tradition, but now sort of love it. And we’re doing it. We’re locked in. We’ve got to have all 12 years of photos.CorinneBut what’s the diet element? That it has to be perfect?VirginiaWell, when I think about my most diety years of Back To School culture, it was the years, especially, when my kids were starting a new school. If they were starting kindergarten, or other transition years, where stress is really, really high. You’re going through a lot of feelings, and as the parent, you’re like, what can I control? I can have an adorable, monogrammed backpack that must be sourced! I can control that we have the right lunchbox and this and that.You can just get so hyper about needing all the details. You need a good first day of school outfit. The teachers send these incredibly detailed school supply lists, and you’re in the aisle at Staples trying to kill yourself to find the right kind of pens. You can just be really extra with it, and it can feel like if you get it wrong, you’re sabotaging your child’s happiness. The stakes are really high. And so there are a lot of diet-y elements, for sure.Here’s what’s helping me divest:Number one, my children pick their own clothes.I have not had input on the clothes that go on my children’s bodies since they were probably three or four years old at the most. So there’s no first day outfit anymore. Whatever they want to wear is the first day outfit. So that’s one thing. I’m no longer like, “I need adorable dresses!!” My kids don’t even like to wear dresses. So, done.Number two, the drugstore in our town does this great thing where they get all the school supply lists from our kids schools. And if you just tell them your kid’s name and the teacher they have for the next year, they will just bag up all the supplies and you just pay and pick them up.CorinneThat’s amazing.VirginiaAnd so I just handed this whole project off to my kid’s dad. I was like, “You’re on school supplies. You do the drug store thing every year.” I don’t think about it anymore, and it does mean you don’t get to sit there and pick out which color folders you want. And as someone who loved school supply shopping myself, that is a little hard for me! But that’s why I was like, I have to just remove myself completely. So I just try to step back from as much of it as I can.What do you see with your friends kids? Do you notice any back to school feelings?CorinneTo be honest, I haven’t. But most of my friends’ kids are in what I would consider barely school. So it hasn’t hit yet. I do remember, as a kid, wanting to school shop and and also wanting a first day outfit.VirginiaIt’s very similar to New Year’s resolution culture. You can be like, “This is the year everything’s going to be perfect!” This is the year that all these things are going to go well. And we all know we’re gonna be crying by October. It is what it is.So you can go in with a lot of a lot of energy that can be misdirected. But also: If it helps you get through the stress of that first day to pack a really good lunch for your kid, great. Do it. I think the potential for harm is when you’re being so obsessive about getting that photo that your kid is really unhappy. It’s worth asking: Will getting this detail right make your child’s day smoother? Then fine. If it’s creating more work and drama for everyone, maybe time to step back.CorinneIf your kid wants to have a special outfit and stuff, fine. And how can you make it not into a diet for them?VirginiaYes. I think especially as kids get older, they can bring this energy as well. I definitely did as a kid. I was very extra about my first day of school outfits and all of that. I would like plan the whole first week and be really manic about it.CorinneThis is so not surprising.Virginia.In a surprise to no one, Virginia was herself.So I guess my point is: This is all optional, and a lot of it is capitalism, not education.CorinneGreat point.VirginiaI’ll read the next question.On vacation, I noticed that I am struggling with photos of myself, and it feels like the final frontier of my body liberation. I guess the question is, have either of you struggled with this? And any suggestions for coping and shifting it? I admire all the fat bodies on my socials and think they look amazing and feel pretty good in my body, and think I look good in the mirror. So why am I so uncomfortable with the photos. It just feels like it’s not how I look in my head or in the mirror. Photographs are different, obviously, than real life. But it surprises me how jarring they can feel.CorinneI feel like there are a million ways to answer this question, but I will just start with this. Have you ever seen a bad photo of a hot person?VirginiaOooh.CorinneLike, yeah. Obviously you have. There are horrible paparazzi photos of everybody, of America’s hottest people.VirginiaEvery beautiful person can take a bad photo. Yes, yes, yes.CorinneYou’re pulling one second out of the movie of your life, or whatever. Obviously, there are going to be weird, bad photos.VirginiaI also really love that meme that surfaces periodically reminding us that it is impossible to take a good photo of the moon. And we think the moon is beautiful. Sunsets, also very hard to photograph well.CorinneSo true.VirginiaEven in my garden, there are things that are prettier in real life than I can capture in a photo. You just can’t get the depth or the angle.CorinneColors!VirginiaThe colors don’t translate. There are so many beautiful things that look better in real life than in photos. And that may include you. It certainly includes me.But I do absolutely struggle with this. I deeply related to this question. One thing that helps me is to remember that I have been very thrown by photos of myself throughout my whole life. There was no period in my life where I regularly saw photos and thought, “That looks exactly like me and I look amazing.” Like, even when I was thin, I would nitpick photos. And I now frequently do that thing where I look back at an old photo and think, oh my God. What was I worried about? Like, this is absurd. And so I can only assume that would continue to happen. Feelings I have about photos I take now, at age 44 when I’m 54 or 70 I’m going to be like, what was I worried about?CorinneI think also: Have you ever had a conversation about this with a friend where they’re like, oh, I hate this photo of myself, and you’re like, “What?”VirginiaWhat are you even seeing?CorinneYeah, it’s maybe not the best photo. And also, whatever.VirginiaThere are also all the ways that technology messes with this. Like, right now, we’re looking at each other on Zoom, and Zoom is mirroring my face at me, which is how I see myself in the mirror. So I look right to me. But if you’ve ever gone into Zoom and had it be not mirrored, you’re like, who the hell is that person? But that’s how everyone else sees your face all the time! That’s actually your face! So a lot of this is, we just don’t know what we look like, the photo both isn’t capturing you and it’s capturing you in a way that you never see yourself, so it’s super disorienting.CorinneYeah, I agree. It’s a certain amount of acceptance, just practicing acceptance of bad photos. And consider, what would you say to your friend about it?VirginiaIt’s also maybe useful to know that you’re going to have this reaction. Just plan for it and be able to say, like, I am uncomfortable with myself in photos. Like, that’s something to work on, and that’s something you can overcome, but it can also just be a true statement right now, and you still had a great vacation. It’s still nice to have the memories of the vacation. If you have kids, yes, be in the photo with your kids. You are going to be really glad you have those at some point in your life. Be in the photo with your loved ones. There’s this whole problem with moms erasing themselves from the family memories, because we take all the photos, and nobody ever takes photos of us. And that’s terrible.So I think it’s it’s fine to know it makes you uncomfortable, and it’s probably worth forcing it to happen anyway.CorinneIt’s also fine to take photos and not look at them.VirginiaDo you think that now that we take a lot of photos of ourselves for our jobs, does it make photos easier for you?CorinneI’m someone who has always taken a lot of photos of myself.VirginiaYes, your Instagram handle is Selfie Fay.CorinneSince like, high school, if not earlier. And I do find that exposure kind of helps, and I do think it kind of helps you with that mindset of just like, well, it’s just one photo. There are photos of myself I like and photos of myself I don’t like.VirginiaYep, agreed.CorinneAnd I still have a reaction sometimes where I see a photo of myself and I’m like, ughhhh.VirginiaBut it feels like it’s less weighted, because it’s not like twice a year you’re seeing photos of yourself on vacations and holidays.CorinneYeah. It’s less jarring.VirginiaAlso, I don’t know who took the photos, but a lot of people are bad at taking photos. Really bad at it. Even people who think they’re good at it, or have nice cameras or fancy phones or whatever. It is a skill. There is a reason people are paid photographers. And so if you don’t like the photo, it’s also worth remembering that the person who took it probably didn’t think about lighting or composition or any of the elements that make a photo that your brain would be like, oh, that’s nice.CorinneYeah, I’ve definitely had the experience where I ask someone to take a photo of me, and then they’re like, kneeling down on the ground. I’m like, “What are you doing? That’s not the angle!”VirginiaAnd then you’re like, I really want to ask them to take it again and tell them how to do it, but I feel like that’s rude, so I shouldn’t, but…CorinneI’ve never been like, I want them to do it again. But I have definitely been like, well, that was kind of a waste.VirginiaIf there are photos you like of yourself, maybe it’s also worth thinking about what is it about those pictures that you like. This is maybe a little bit of beauty culture mindset. But if you like photos of yourself better with your hair down or your hair up, maybe make a point to put your hair up or down, whichever it is before you take the photo, because it’ll just remove a layer of stress. I think that’s harm reduction. It is obviously a beauty standard, but maybe checking that box makes the experience less stressful.CorinneOk, I will read the next question.I would love some suggestions for navigating fatphobia while pregnant and nursing. I’m currently four months pregnant, and the sheer amount of fatphobia and diet culture I’ve been subjected to is mind boggling.My provider has so far not brought up my weight, although I have been weighed at every appointment. But all of the materials and guidance I’ve gotten from them has been related to not eating too much, not eating, quote, empty calories, exercising regularly. And then on top of that is the breastfeeding propaganda about how it will help you lose the baby weight and how breastfeeding prevents obesity. Navigating all of this on top of my own feelings about rapid body changes and an unprecedented level of body surveillance from family is a lot!This episode will be coming out after I get back from visiting some very diet culture family. So I’ll definitely be in need of some Burnt Toast counter programming.VirginiaAll right, we got you! Good job surviving the family visit. We’re back now. Let’s get into it.CorinneAre you okay?VirginiaDo you need a hug? Do you need a cookie? We are here.Oh, it’s so hard, like you’re not doing enough growing an actual human being with your body. You have to deal with all of this. It is so much! Pregnancy and postpartum are really, can be really challenging times for people’s relationships with their bodies, and all of this medical messaging and fearmongering does not help.I think it’s great your provider is not bringing up weight. And I would really laser focus in on that, and ignore all the materials and guidance. It is really possible to have a great pregnancy and never read a pamphlet about pregnancy. If your doctor is not saying to you, “this is super important for your health,” then who cares? You don’t have to be an A student and read all the pamphlets, or all the books or all the Instagram content about this.CorinneI have so much empathy for pregnant people. I just know that I would really hate the body surveillance stuff. I feel like that is out of control and something you kind of can’t do anything about. Even if you tell people, “I don’t want to hear it,” they’re not going to stop.VirginiaOr they’re still surveying you even if they’re not saying anything. If you’re with diet, culture-y family, you might have set the boundary around the conversation. And it also comes from total strangers, like you’re just in the grocery store, and people feel free to comment on your body. It’s horrendous.CorinneTotally. And also, I can only imagine how disorienting and horrible the body changes are to go through. You know, it’s a lot!VirginiaIt’s a lot, it’s a lot.I do want to mention that we had some folks chatting about this recently in the Burnt Toast chat. And there is now a WhatsApp group of Burnt Toasties who are all new parents postpartum, trying to navigate without diet culture. So that might be a great safe space for you to check out. And obviously, the more like minded people that go there, the better that chat will be.[Post-recording note: Just to clarify, we love that this WhatsApp group is happening, but Virginia and Corinne aren’t participating/it’s not an official form of BT content!]CorinneYeah, that’s awesome.VirginiaI do think this is a real find your people moment. And this person doesn’t say if it’s a first pregnancy or not, but I think especially in your first pregnancy, there’s a lot of forming bonds with people just because we’re all going through this life experience. But you really need to find people who are going through the life experience with the same values as you in order to really support one another.So that’s definitely something to think about, even if you can just identify one friend in your circle who’s a safe person on all of this, that you can, like, vent to and support each other when this noise gets loud. I’ll also link to some other stuff I’ve written on pregnancy over the years, because we revisit this pretty often.Why "Building a Healthy Baby" is Bullshit When The Pregnancy App Talks About "Belly-Only Weight Gain," We Have Work To Do"Is My Body Too Big To Be Pregnant?"We Need To Talk About Fat Fertility The Fat Mother NarrativeThe bottom line is sort of similar to the conversations we’re having about menopause right now. This is a huge life change. Your body is going through a lot. Your weight is the least interesting thing about it. And, you can have a totally healthy pregnancy and not be hyperfixated on weight or calories or any of these things. This is all optional. Breastfeeding is optional. It’s all optional. So, really feeling grounded in like, I get to choose what serves me right now, and I know from past experience, diet culture never serves me. So why would it serve me now when I’m doing something this difficult and life changing.CorinneIt does feel like one of those things where the diet culture is just so ingrained, it’s really hard to find an alternative.VirginiaIt’s really similar to the perimenopause stuff. Everyone who is a credible expert on this subject also suddenly has a supplement to sell you, and it’s so maddening.I will read the next one.Do you have any good clap backs for situations where people you haven’t seen in a long time make comments about how much you have changed? I would feel less anxious having some prepared sentences under my belt.CorinneOkay, I have two things to say about this. The first one is, I think if someone comes up to you and says, “Oh, wow, you’ve changed,” you should say, “Thank you.”VirginiaNice.CorinneYes, thank you.If you want something a little different, you could be like, “What do you mean?” And really make them spell it out. But that is going to be an exercise in tolerating some amount of discomfort if they want to tell you what they mean. I think you could also say, “Yes, I have changed, and I’m so much happier or healthier,” or whatever. Even if it’s a lie, just say it.VirginiaThis is definitely a situation where lying is strongly encouraged because this person is being obnoxious.CorinneAnd then I also just want to say: I do think this is kind of one of those social anxiety things that you’re going to worry a lot more about happening than it will actually happen. It’s just one of those things that’s a nightmare scenario in your head and probably won’t actually happen in real life.VirginiaOkay, yes, I think that’s completely true. But it is also true that people may be thinking things, and you’re aware of what they’re thinking. But —that’s a them problem, not a you problem.CorinneI'd love some help addressing how the grandparents are talking about aging with grandkids. While I've somehow managed to train the grandparents to not discuss bodies in terms of fat/thin/size/weight (yay!), they feel totally free to discuss how much they hate aging, wrinkling skin, botox and other body modification as it pertains to “fighting aging.” The increase in these topics definitely aligns with the celebrities around their age (and even younger) recently revealing totally new faces and necks (Kris Jenner, Ricki Lake, Lauren Sanchez, etc.). Somehow that seems to give them permission to bring the public discourse to my kids (it shouldn't).I actually had a really great conversation with my kids (who are under 10) about how kids expect their bodies to change while adults expect their bodies to stay the same, when the reality is that bodies change forever and that there should never be an expectation of sameness. And my kids were like, duh. I'm growing, I'm going to hit puberty, I'm going to be an adult, and then I'm going to shrink (they mean in height, which made me lol). And I was like, 'well, there are many years between growing and shrinking, and in those years, your body still continues to change! That's what bodies do. But adults forget and then they get upset.'This conversation was great with the kids, but the grandparents absolutely couldn't handle 'another topic they can't talk about with my kids. Thoughts?VirginiaI think you handled it perfectly, and all that really matters is that you can discuss this with your kids, which you can. So I wouldn’t even attempt to put any guardrails around the grandparents on this.CorinneI agree that it does seem weird that your parents are talking to your kids about both their feelings about Botox. And I agree that asking them to stop is probably not going to work and just create a bunch of tension.VirginiaThe grandparents are the ones grappling with this. It feels like a time where we kind of need to check our own age privilege? I don’t know how I’m going to feel about all that stuff when I’m in my 60s and 70s. It’s going to feel harder than it feels right now, in various ways, I’m sure. Maybe also easier, I don’t know. But the point is, I haven’t lived through that. Your parents are talking from their lived experience. You don’t have to agree with their choices. You can have your own take on this. Obviously, I agree with you that bodies grow and change, and that’s something we should be embracing, but I think you can just reframe it with your kids and kind of let it wash over you when it comes from the parents, because it’s their stuff. It’s not your stuff.CorinneBut sometimes I wonder, in this situation where you’re like, “I don’t want my kids to hear that,” is it actually bothering you and you want to say something to them about it, but you don’t know how to do that?VirginiaBecause your kids sound fine. They were like, “yeah, Grandma talked about Botox. That’s weird. Anyway.” I don’t think they were internalizing it. And I think this is so common, when people are like, “What do I do about my mom talking to my kids?” Often the kids are fine, because what a grandparent says to them doesn’t have the same impact as what your mom says to you. So I think this is one of those moments.And if you want to set boundaries around that, I think you can find ways to be like, “I’m not really here for an age bashing conversation today,” or “I think you look great anyway.” You can set up some boundaries.But I kind of don’t blame the grandparents for being like, “Stop giving me a list of things I can’t talk to your kids about.” It is a little micro managing. I get it. And I do feel like when people are talking about their own stuff, that’s really different from if a grandparent was directly criticizing how your child eats or your child’s body, that’s where you have to intervene. If a grandparent is like “no more pasta for your kid, she’s getting fat,” that’s where you have to jump in and set boundaries and protect your kid.But if the grandma is not eating pasta—CorinneTheir body, their choice.VirginiaAnd you can keep reframing with your kids why you are not making that same choice.CorinneIf it’s bothering you, I think sometimes a nice approach is just to be like, hey, when you talk about this, I feel X way. Like it gives me anxiety when you’re talking about having Botox, like I’m not quite there yet and it freaks me out.VirginiaYeah, just let them know you’re not the audience for this. I hope they have other people in their lives who want to talk about Botox.All right. Next question.Are shows like Too Much and Survival of the Thickest normalizing dating plus size women for heterosexual men? I hope so!CorinneYou would have to ask the heterosexual men.VirginiaAre heterosexual men watching Too Much and Survival of the Thickest?CorinneGreat question.VirginiaI do not think those shows have a strong, cis, straight man audience. I think they’re watched by women and gay men.CorinneI also feel like, I mean, are they normalizing it on television? Maybe. I also think, in real life, men dating plus size women is normal.VirginiaThat’s what I was going to say. I don’t think the men are watching these shows. I also don’t think we actually have to normalize this. I think it’s normalized. I go back to the Kate Manne interview where she talked about how it’s a number one porn search term. Straight men are attracted to fat women. They just are. And of course, there’s a lot of noise around that, and there are some men who are not or who are assholes about it. Absolutely true. But it’s not all men. That makes me sound like an apologist for men, and I’m uncomfortable with it. But I actually think it’s more normal than you think it is for straight men to be attracted to fat women."You Cannot Fight Misogyny Without Fighting Fatphobia."But what I think these shows are doing is normalizing four plus size women that we can see ourselves as attractive. They’re helping us get over it. Or I think they can be helpful for helping us get over it.CorinneAnd I think they’re definitely normalizing it being on TV. And, I do like to see that on TV.VirginiaI think that’s really important, and we need more of it. I mean, this idea that straight men are only attracted to thin women is a figment of Hollywood’s imagination. It’s a figment of diet cultures imagination. It’s not what’s actually happening. So more representation of reality is very useful. Plus, they’re both fairly fun shows.CorinneThe next one is a gardening question for you.We planted a bunch of stuff this year. I was all organized and have a cute, color coded map and everything. Now, how do I keep track of what needs to be pruned back in the fall or left over winter? Do I need a spreadsheet, or am I overthinking it?VirginiaWow, this is a person after my own heart. And also I will link to the piece I wrote about divesting perfectionism in the garden. You don’t need a spreadsheet.Divesting from Garden PerfectionismI do keep lists of things I plant every year because it’s helpful to know what you’ve planted. And I have used a spreadsheet when mapping out what to put in raised beds. Sometimes I just draw it, like plot it out, how you’re gonna plant things. And so I understand the need to do this. But no, I don’t think you need to keep a spreadsheet of what needs to be pruned back in the fall or left over winter.The answer is much simpler. Almost everything can be left over the winter. It’s actually great to leave most of your perennials standing. They will form seed pods. There will be dry stalks, but that creates actually a lot of habitat. There are a lot of overwintering bees that like to nest in the stems of perennial plants. There are a lot of little critters that like to live in the leaf litter, and the seed pods get eaten by birds over the winter. So leaving your garden standing, even if it looks a mess is a very environmentally friendly thing to do.I tidy up a little more out front and then leave the back for the birds and the bees. if you live in a neighborhood where that feels like your neighbors might be judgey or whatever.Otherwise, the only things I cut back personally in the fall are peonies and hostas, because both of their foliage can harbor disease if they’re left to get wet and slimy. So those I cut back. But definitely all natives I leave standing. Pretty much everything else I leave standing.CorinneWhen do you cut it back?VirginiaI cut it back in the spring after we’ve had about a week of 50 degree days or higher, because that’s when everything warms up and the hibernating bees come out and everybody’s like, okay, I’m good, I’m good, I’m safe. And then you can cut it back. So yeah, that’s the answer. You don’t need a spreadsheet. Leave basically everything except for your peonies and hostas.Shrubs are a little bit of a different question. There are some shrubs that are better to be pruned in the fall and some that are better to be pruned in the spring. I would, if you have tons of different kinds of shrubs, maybe you would need a spreadsheet to keep track of that. But if you’ve planted a couple of shrubs just look up those specific things. And it is shrubs specific, so I’m not going to get into it. But yeah, just look up your shrubs, see when they best need to be pruned. Maybe keep track of that. And other than that, leave everything.CorinneHmm, cool. I do like the I like the idea of a spreadsheet personally, but just because I’m very forgetful.VirginiaWell, I could see it being helpful for the shrubs, definitely. Like, I’m just thinking around my own yard. And it’s like, lilacs you have to prune immediately after they flowers so you don’t destroy next year’s buds.CorinneI’m already too late.VirginiaYes, you are. Some hydrangeas you prune in the fall, and some hydrangeas, you can’t prune until the spring. And blueberries need to be pruned in the winter. Shrubs are weird. They all have their own ideal times to be pruned, related to preserving next year’s flowers. So it could be helpful to have a spreadsheet. Now, I’m like, okay, yeah, I want a shrub spreadsheet.But you don’t need everything else. And the color coded map. The only reason I’m laughing at that a little bit is once you’re a few years into gardening, you will learn that plants don’t always stay where you put them. They get bigger. Sometimes they seed themselves in new locations. A lot of things often don’t survive the winter that and then you have a hole. Every year the map looks a little different. So don’t feel like you have to have it all nailed down. That’s the perfectionism thing. Gardening is not interior design. It’s not making a quilt. You’re not nailing things into space.All right, our last question is a very delightful, whimsical one.If you could turn into an animal, what animal would it be, and why?CorinneI’m having a very hard time settling on one. First, I thought, a horse. I don’t know, seems fun.Then I was like, okay, maybe a whale?? Also seems fun to be swimming around. And then I was also like, I feel like my dog has a pretty nice life. Like, a dog in a cushy home environment where you can just kind of nap all day and get fed treats.VirginiaI went to cat for the same reason, but even more so, because I think as an introvert, I’m more suited to cat life because cats can also be like, Fuck you, I’m out of here.CorinneSo true.VirginiaWhereas dogs have that need to be with you all the time, and I think I would personally start to chafe against that.CorinneI think if I were a cat, I’d want to be an outdoor cat, though.VirginiaNo, you don’t live very long.CorinneSeems fun to hunt birds?VirginiaI know, but also they’re really hurting the bird population. I’m going to get a text from my mom if I don’t say that. So no outdoor cats. They’re bad for the birds.CorinneOkay, my bad.VirginiaI think I would want to be an indoor cat. And I was also thinking about sea creatures. Octopus seems cool.CorinneThat does seem cool. Seems pretty great. Wow.VirginiaOh. And then my final choice would be elephant, because I adore elephants. They’re amazing.ButterCorinneI don’t have a Butter. What’s yourButter?VirginiaWe’ve failed at Butter?! Well, I have a Butter but if you think it’s too diet-y, tell me, and I’ll pick a different Butter.My Butter this week is one minute planks. I’m doing a one minute plank every day. I worked up to one long plank. I should say. I started at 20 seconds. I’ve worked up to a minute.CorinneYeah, all right.VirginiaAnd by that I mean yesterday and today I did one minute. Before that, I was doing 20 seconds and then 30 and then 45. The reason I’m doing this is we have a crazy schedule this week. I don’t have time to actually do a workout, even, like, a 15 minute workout. Like, it’s just not happening. And I was getting stressed about it, because my back hurts more when I don’t work out and I don’t need to deal with my back hurting.CorinneI thought you were going to say, because mental illness.VirginiaI mean also that. So many reasons that I need to get a workout in. But specifically for me, working out is primarily about managing back pain. And then I was like, I can also do five minutes—not even, three minutes—of hip stretches and a one minute plank. And then my back doesn’t hurt. For today anyway. And that is my Butter! Figuring out the shortest possible way to be like, yes, I moved my body a little bit today, despite the fact I also drove children to 47 locations and had no time to work and everything is a little chaotic.CorinneI think that’s a good Butter.VirginiaObviously you don’t have to do planks if you don’t like them. I didn’t like them for a long time. Yours could be something totally different, but I’m weirdly into it, and I might be setting a goal of learning to do push ups? Casual just maybe, maybe, maybe I’m thinking about learning to do push ups.CorinneI love that!VirginiaWhich I can’t do.CorinneDid something influence that?VirginiaWell, I do a lot of weight lifting videos, and there’s often a push up portion that I can’t do. I can do them against a counter, but I can’t do them on the floor. And it’s just been one of those things. My whole life, I’ve always been like, “I can’t do push ups.” Like I can’t get back up, and it feels like I should be able to. Or maybe it’s learnable, and maybe I want to spend some small amount of time seeing if I can learn it.CorinneCool. Can you do them on your knees?VirginiaYeah, I can do them on my knees. But I’ve never progressed. I’ve been at this level of modified push up forever, and I’m just like, what would it take to cross over? Not because I want to be a Navy Seal or anything. You know, I’m not going to do the push ups where they clap in the middle or whatever, but it feels like a mountain I could climb. And by which I mean, like, this feels like it should be an achievable goal.CorinneYeah, I think it’s definitely an achievable goal.VirginiaI don’t know. Do you like push ups? Are you a push up person?CorinneNo, I’m not a push up person. But I do think there’s something fun sometimes about having an exercise goal that feels fun for you. And obviously you’re not going to go down a hole if you don’t get there.VirginiaIt’s something to do just for the sake of doing that thing. There’s no other agenda attached. I’m just like, oh, I can’t do a push up. I wonder if I could learn to do a push up. I don’t know! So we’ll see where it goes.CorinneI think it might be less of a learning thing and more of a building strength thing.VirginiaI do feel like there’s a part of my brain that doesn’t understand it, though. I can go down and I just can’t get back up.CorinneBut I think that’s strength, not your brain. It’s that those muscles aren’t strong enough.VirginiaBut, I can’t even figure out which muscles I want to activate? Like, I just get down there and I’m like, what would it be? Is it my arms? Is it my core? I don’t know. How do people do this?CorinneMaybe ask Anna Maltby.VirginiaAnna Maltby, I need you!CorinneThis will be an interesting one to check back in on.VirginiaOkay, let’s see if I forgot all about it days after we recorded this, or if I am suddenly a push up queen, stay tuned.[Post-recording note: Virginia has done no further push-ups! But it could still happen…some day!]CorinneI’m going recommend something very basic, but I want to recommend Baggu bags. I don’t really carry a purse if I’m going somewhere. I usually just claw my phone, my wallet, and my keys in one hand. I feel like there are a lot of memes about girls holding stuff. Then recently I was like, why don’t I just throw all this into a Baggu and carry that around instead?VirginiaSo you discovered…the concept of a purse?CorinneYeah, but not a permanent purse. Like, I take it back out and I’ll use different ones at different times.VirginiaYou’re talking about the reusable shopping bag style, yeah?CorinneYeah. I can sometimes still claw all my stuff and then sometimes have it in a little bag. But, yeah, I just think they’re great bags. And people are always like, wow, that’s such a cute bag. They’re really cute. Right now, I have some of the vegetable and fruit ones. I have like a melon one and a radish one.VirginiaI have the strawberry one, and I love it.CorinneI have the strawberry one as well, so cute. They’re just very convenient, very lightweight, cute, colorful. So I’m recommending Baggu bags.VirginiaI just ordered for my middle schoolers birthday—she’s a big horse kid and they have a new horse print. So I just got her one for, like, I don’t know what she’ll use it for, but. And I got her the little horse charm. Did you see that?CorinneI got a text from them about it. I was like, I need to send this to Virginia.VirginiaAnd then you’re like, she gets the text as well. They really have transformed my actually remembering bags at the grocery store because they fold up so small that I can actually have them. I just remember to have them with me in a way that I never did, bulky bags.CorinneBecause then also, if I’m carrying my wallet, etc, in one and then I’m stopping at the store, then I just dump the stuff out and use it. It’s very convenient.VirginiaYeah, you’re there. You’re already ready to use. They’re so well done. And I love the zipper pouches. Sorry, this is now becoming a whole Baggu ad. But you know what, guys, if you’re not on that train with us, you should get on it. They’re great.

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my guest is Mara Gordon, MD.Dr. Mara is a family physician on the faculty of Cooper Medical School of Rowan University, as well as a writer, journalist and contributor to NPR. She also writes the newsletter Your Doctor Friend by Mara Gordon about her efforts to make medicine more fat friendly.Dr. Mara is back today with Part 2 of our conversation about weight, health, perimenopause and menopause! As we discussed last time, finding menopause advice that doesn’t come with a side of diet culture is really difficult. Dr Mara is here to help, and she will not sell you a supplement sign or make you wear a weighted vest.This episode is free but if you value this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription. Burnt Toast is 100% reader- and listener-supported. We literally can’t do this without you.PS. You can always listen to this pod right here in your email, where you’ll also receive full transcripts (edited and condensed for clarity). But please also follow us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and/or Pocket Casts! And if you enjoy today’s conversation, please tap the heart on this post — likes are one of the biggest drivers of traffic from Substack’s Notes, so that’s a super easy, free way to support the show!And don’t miss these: Dr. Mara Will Not Sell You a Weighted VestHealthcare is Ground Zero for FatphobiaIs Dr. Mary Claire Haver Making MenopauseEpisode 209 TranscriptVirginiaSo today we’re going to move away from the weight stuff a little bit, into some of the other the wide constellation of things that can happen in menopause and perimenopause. Before we get into some nitty gritty stuff, I want to do Laurie’s question about hormone replacement therapy, since that is still one of those topics that people are like, Is it good? Is it bad? I don’t know.So Laurie asked: Is there a reason why a doctor would not want to prescribe hormone replacement therapy? My doctor seems more willing to treat individual symptoms instead of using HRT. Is that maybe because I’m still getting my period?MaraI love this question. Now my professor hat can nerd out about interpretation of scientific research! So first, I’ll just briefly say, Laurie, no big deal that you said HRT. But just so everyone’s aware, the preferred term is menopausal hormone therapy, MHT, or just hormone therapy, and it’s not a huge deal. But I think the North American Menopause Society now uses “menopausal hormone therapy.” The thinking is, hormones don’t necessarily need to be replaced. It comes back to that idea of, menopause is a natural part of life, and so the idea that they would need to be replaced is not totally accurate. VirginiaWe’re not trying to get you out of menopause, right? The goal isn’t to push you back into some pre-menopausal hormonal state. MaraBut again, not a big deal. You’ll see HRT still used, and a lot of doctors still use that term. So I graduated from medical school in 2015 and I remember one of the first times that a patient asked me about using menopausal hormone therapy, I was terrified. And I was still in training, so luckily, I had a mentor who guided me through it. But I had absorbed this very clear message from medical school, which is that menopausal hormone therapy will cause heart disease, cause pulmonary emboli, which are blood clots in the lungs, and cause breast cancer.And I was like, “Ahhh! I’m gonna cause harm to my patients. This is scary.” I had also learned that hot flashes–they weren’t life threatening. So a patient could just use a fan and she’d be fine, right? She didn’t need medicine for it.VirginiaCool.MaraI think the dismissal of symptoms here is just straight up misogyny. That message of, oh, you should just live with this You’re tough, you’re a woman, you can do it. This is just the next stage of it. Is just misogyny, right?But the fear of using menopausal hormone therapy has a specific historical context. There was a major study called the Women’s Health Initiative, and it was a randomized control trial, which is the gold standard in medical research. People were given estrogen and progestin to treat menopausal symptoms or they were given a placebo, and they didn’t know which pill they took. But WHI was actually halted early because they found an increased risk of breast cancer. This was on the front page of The New York Times. It was a really, really big deal. That was 2002 or 2003. So even 15 years later, when I was starting out as a doctor, I was still absorbing its message. And I think a lot of doctors who are still in practice have just deeply absorbed this message.But there’s a lot to consider here. The first issue is in the way that information about the Women’s Health Initiative was communicated. Nerd out with me for a second here: There is a big difference between absolute risk and relative risk. And this is a really subtle issue that’s often communicated poorly in the media.So I looked it up in the initial paper that came out of the Women’s Health Initiative. There was a relative risk of 26 percent of invasive breast cancer, right? So that meant that the people who got the estrogen and progestin, as opposed to a placebo, had a relative increased risk of 26 percent compared to the placebo arm.VirginiaWhich sounds scary,MaraSounds terrifying, right? But the absolute risk is the risk in comparison to one another. And they found that if you’re a patient taking the estrogen/progestin, your absolute risk was 8 people out of 10,000 women a year would get invasive breast cancer. So it’s very, very small.And this is an issue I see in medical journalism all the time. We talk about relative risk, like your risk compared to another group, but the absolute risk remains extremely low.And just to round it out: I looked all this up about cardiovascular events too. Things like a heart attack, a stroke. So the absolute risk was 19. So there were 19 cases of a cardiovascular event out of 10,000 women in a year. People just freaked out about this because of the way that it was covered in the media. VirginiaI was fresh out of college, doing women’s health journalism at the time. So I fully own having been part of that problem. We definitely reported on the relative risk, not the absolute risk. And I don’t understand why. I look back and I’m like, what were we all doing? We ended up taking this medication away from millions of women who could really benefit from it.MaraI found a paper that showed between 2002 and 2009 prescriptions for menopausal hormone therapy declined by more than 60 percent. VirginiaI’m not surprised. MaraAnd then even up until the time I started my training, right in 2015, we’re just seeing a huge decline in hormone therapy prescriptions.One other thing that’s also super important to acknowledge about the Women’s Health Initiative is that they enrolled women over 60, which is not really representative of women who want or need hormone therapy. So the average age of menopause is 51 and the vast majority of women who are experiencing symptoms that would respond well to hormone therapy are much younger. We’re talking here mostly about hot flashes. Which we call vasomotor symptoms of menopause, but it’s basically hot flashes. Women dealing with this are much younger, right? So they’re approaching menopause, late 40s, and right after the menopausal transition, early 50s, and then they don’t necessarily need it anymore, after their symptoms have improved.VirginiaAnd it will also be true that with women in their 60s, you’re going to see more incidence of cancer and heart disease in that age group than in women in their 40s anyway, right? MaraRightVirginiaSo even the 19 cases, the eight cases—they were looking at a higher risk population in general. MaraYeah. And so there have been all these subsequent analyses, which is why now we’re seeing menopausal hormone therapy sort of on the upswing. There’s a lot of increased interest in it. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists recommends it, the North American Menopause Society, the British Menopause Society; here’s a full run-down. It’s not that everybody needs it, and we’ll get to that in a second, but it is a totally safe and appropriate treatment for—specifically and most importantly—for vasomotor symptoms of menopause. Like hot flashes. There’s been all these further analyses of the Women’s Health Initiative data and and then from other studies, too. And basically, it shows that when the hormone therapy is initiated before age 60, or within 10 years of menopause, there’s a reduced risk of heart disease and reduced mortality.VirginiaWow! MaraSo the timing matters. Isn’t that so interesting? The timing matters.Also, the route of administration matters. So what that means in English is that an estrogen patch seems to have a lower risk of blood clots. So one of those fears of the, you know, initial Women’s Health Initiative data was that you might have an increased risk of blood clots. But it’s something about the way that the estrogen is metabolized. It’s not metabolized through the liver when it’s absorbed through the skin, and something about that process seems to decrease the risk of blood clots.So that’s why your doctor, if you’re interested in menopausal hormone therapy, might recommend an estrogen patch rather than a pill.VirginiaGot it. MaraThere’s a lot of ambiguity in all of this data, because, you know, we’re talking about just huge numbers of people, and it’s hard to sort of isolate variables when you’re studying just like massive cohorts of people and trying to understand what you know, what factors affect your risk for which diseases. It’s not clear that taking hormones prevents heart disease. And that’s one of the big claims I see with menopause influencers, that every single person needs this.The data don’t support it at this point in time, and the major menopause organizations do not recommend it as a universal preventative treatment for everybody. But it seems like there might be some sort of association that may become clearer as research continues. That said, now it seems like the pendulum is swinging in the opposite direction. I learned, “be afraid of menopausal hormone treatment.” And now all these menopause influencers are saying everyone should be on hormone therapy.I don’t know the answer. And so the way that I try to parse through all of this noise is, you know, go to trusted sources, right? So I stick to society guidelines, like the North American menopause society, the British menopause society, they’re run by world experts in menopause.VirginiaOkay, so we don’t need to be terrified of hormone therapy, and you can be on it if you’re still getting your period right? Just to finish Laurie’s question.MaraIf you’re still getting a period regularly, you’re more in perimenopause than past the menopausal transition. And we will often use contraception to help and that you can have a lot of the same benefits from using contraception in that stage. It’s also useful just because unintended pregnancy still can be totally a thing in your 40s. But yes, you can absolutely use traditional regimens of menopausal hormone therapy while you’re still getting a period too. Just know it won’t prevent pregnancy. VirginiaSince we talked a little bit about hot flashes, I’m gonna jump to Judy’s question so we can kind of round that piece out: One of the things I am really struggling with is the way I have lost all ability to regulate temperature. I am boiling hot almost all the time, and the slightest thing makes me break out into a full sweat, which makes me not want to move at all.My doctor has not been super helpful in navigating this. What can I do to mitigate this issue? If anything, it is so very hard for me not to blame the size of my body for this, since the correlation seems so clear, smaller body less sweating, larger body sweating all the dang time.MaraJudy, I empathize first of all. Just one caveat I can’t really give medical advice to Judy. There are a lot of things that could be going on, and it’s really important that you see a doctor and get a full history and physical exam. But I will say that this is one of the things that menopausal hormone therapy is extremely helpful for, is hot flashes.VirginiaThat was my first thought! MaraThere are a lot of influencers who really overstate the benefits of hormone therapy, right? Hormone therapy is not really going to cause significant weight loss or prevent weight gain. It’s not totally clear that it helps with mood symptoms or even sleep is a little more ambiguous. But the one thing it really works for is hot flashes. So that would be my thought: Start there. VirginiaAnd on the feeling like you want to blame your body for it: I don’t know if Judy identifies as fat, but as someone who identifies as fat, I often feel like I’m sweatier now than when I was thinner. I run warmer. All my skinny friends will be bundled up in coats, and I still won’t be wearing one in October. I do notice that. And I think that this is a situation where that is, even if those two things correlate— you’re larger and you’re sweatier—is that worth putting yourself through the hell of weight loss? You may decide yes, it is, if hormone therapy doesn’t work for you.But that’s one of those times where I bring it back to “What would actually make my daily life miserable?” I can drink water, I can be in AC, I’m gonna find a link to this nighttime cooling bed thing that my friend Claire Zulkey really loves. MaraI’ve heard of those!VirginiaI think there are options to mitigate your suffering with this. Medicine is definitely an option. Before you go to “okay, my body size has to be the thing that changes.”MaraI totally agree. I just deal with this all the time where people tell me in my clinic that they want to lose weight. And when I sort of gently ask, what are you hoping to achieve? What are your goals? They’re often things that can be achieved through other means. Like, people say my clothes don’t fit, right? And most of my patients are low-income, right? I’m not trying to be flippant about the idea that everyone can just go and purchase a new, you know, multi $1,000 wardrobe at the drop of a hat. But it is possible to get new clothes in affordable ways. Don’t torture yourself with clothes that don’t fit because you feel like weight gain is a moral failing. And I think that there are things that we can do to help keep us at a comfortable temperature, right wear clothes that feel, you know, that feel good. Air conditioning is an amazing modern invention. And, you know, cool beverages, ice cream. VirginiaPopsicle O’Clock is very important in my summer right now, very important. MaraWait, what’s a popsicle clock?VirginiaOh, Popsicle O’Clock. It’s just the time of day where you eat popsicles. It could be 9am it could be 4pm just whenever I feel like we need to add popsicles to a situation.MaraI think we all need more popsicles in our life, that is absolutely for sure.So I think what I’m hearing from Judy’s question is once again, shame about body size, and also this myopic zooming in on weight loss as the only possible solution. Which I blame doctors for in many ways! Some people do benefit from weight loss, right? I’m not opposed to the idea that anybody would ever want to lose weight. I don’t think that that’s a betrayal of fat solidarity, necessarily. But that there are other things you can do just to make your life feel better in the meantime, or even if you choose to never pursue weight loss. There are things you can do to feel better, and we shouldn’t deprive ourselves of those things.VirginiaAnd you don’t know that it is the weight gain. It could be age and hormones, and those coincided with the weight gain for you personally. But there are lots of thin women getting hot flashes all the time too.Okay, this next question is from Michaela: I am super curious about the connection between perimenopause, menopause and mental health symptoms, specifically, an uptick in anxiety and depression. Is this a thing?We also got many questions about whether perimenopause and menopause exacerbate ADHD symptoms. MaraSo this is a question I get a lot from my patients, and I’ve seen a lot of discourse about online. And the short answer is: There is probably a connection between the hormonal changes of perimenopause and the menopausal transition and mental health. Do we understand it? No. So I mean, with ADHD specifically, I will say: This is really not my area of expertise. It’s a very complex mental health condition, and our medical understanding of it is really rapidly evolving. I have many patients who have a diagnosis of ADHD but I’m typically not the one who diagnoses them. That being said: Estrogen affects neurotransmitters. Neurotransmitters are implicated in ADHD. Declining estrogen does seem to affect dopamine, in particular, which is implicated in ADHD. And anecdotally, I’ve had many of my patients say that they feel like their ability to focus and sustain attention decreases. And they experience brain fog as they enter perimenopause and menopause. So it’s there’s probably something going on, and a lot of researchers are really actively studying it, but we don’t know yet.VirginiaDo we know if this is something that hormone therapy can help with?MaraSo I think the answer is, I don’t know.VirginiaWhat about anxiety and depression?MaraI don’t think the data are there, right? Hormone therapy is usually not considered a first line treatment for the mental health conditions that are often associated with the menopausal transition. But we have great medicines for those conditions. We have good treatments for ADHD, we have good treatments for anxiety and depression. And sometimes during the menopausal transition, patients might need an increase of those treatments. And that could mean going back into therapy, if you’ve been out of therapy, increasing your medications or restarting a med that you may have stopped years ago. Those are all totally valid approaches during this phase.And I guess what I’d say, is that it’s okay to trust your body. And if you notice changes in your mental health associated with perimenopause or menopause itself, ask about it. Don’t be afraid to advocate for yourself. And while hormone therapy doesn’t look like it is an effective treatment specifically for those symptoms, there are other treatments, and you should feel empowered to ask about them.VirginiaThe next question goes back to some of the diet and exercise stuff we’ve touched on. This person writes: Since recently reaching menopause, my cholesterol has become high. I understand there is a proven link between menopause and increased cholesterol, and that weight is part of the picture. I’m trying to lower my cholesterol with focus on nutrition and exercise. But it is fucking with my head because it feels like a very restrictive diet. I’d love any thoughts on the menopause cholesterol connection and keeping cholesterol low with nutrition and exercise without falling into the abyss of obsessing about how many almonds I’ve eaten.MaraOh, that is such a good question!VirginiaThe almond of it all. MaraAlmonds are really good in some scenarios, but also just like, kind of a sad snack. I always think about President Obama eating those, like, eight almonds, or whatever.VirginiaIt turns out that was a joke and he wasn’t doing that. But just the fact that everybody assumed he would says a lot! MaraThat is hilarious, and I didn’t know! And it just shows how with information online, the initial story sticks. Like to this day, 10 years later, I still thought that Barack Obama ate eight almonds as his indulgent midnight snack every single night. I hope the man is eating some ice cream and living his best life. Okay, so there is absolutely a link between menopause and elevated risk of cardiovascular disease. But even within the term cholesterol, there are different types. I wouldn’t really say to a patient, “Your cholesterol is high.” One thing you might hear is “your LDL cholesterol is high,” which is known popularly as, the “bad” cholesterol. Which, again, moral language alert. But LDL cholesterol is a proxy for risk of cardiovascular disease. I will say it’s not a great one; it’s kind of a blunt instrument. We measure and we treat it, because we don’t have other great ways of predicting cardiovascular risk. But it is not the full portrait, although it’s certainly a risk factor for developing cardiovascular disease. And the transition of menopause seems to impact LDL, cholesterol, other biomarkers of cardiovascular disease, and increases your risk for cardiovascular disease.And what’s interesting–I think we talked about this a little bit already, is that this happens, this this risk happens independent of normal aging.So, for example, women who go through menopause early start developing this increased risk earlier than women who go through menopause slightly later. And overall, we see that women develop cardiovascular disease, at rates lower than men, and at later in life than men. And there’s a hypothesis that this has to do with menopause, right? That there’s a protective effect of estrogen, but then when your estrogen starts to decline in menopause, it puts women at an increased risk compared to where they were pre-menopause.There’s also some data to suggest that the severity of menopause symptoms—particularly vasomotor symptoms like hot flashes or sleep disturbances—may indicate risk for developing cardiovascular disease. So this is not to scare everyone, but it’s good to have knowledge. If you’re having really severe hot flashes, it may indicate that you are at slightly higher risk for developing cardiovascular disease than somebody who is not. The intention of having this knowledge is not to make you feel shame, and not to berate you for your belly fat or whatever. It’s to have knowledge so that you can help mitigate risk factors in ways that feel aligned with your values and ways that feel aligned with the way that you want to pursue health in your life.And so I would approach this reader’s or this listener’s question with smy same approach to all of my patients questions. “I have hypertension, does that mean I need to lose weight?” “I have diabetes, does that mean I need to lose weight?” The answer is that we have many treatments that can help you address these concerns independent of weight loss. But this is not to say that you cannot pursue weight loss too, right? And if using a GLP-1 agonist to reduce your visceral adiposity is aligned with your values, and you can tolerate the side effects, and you feel good about it, and it’s covered by your insurance….that’s totally a reasonable approach. But it’s not the only one. So I think what I’m hearing from this patient is the menopause flavor of what I do every single day in my work as a size inclusive doctor. Which is: How can we disentangle weight stigma and body shame from these questions of how to lead a healthy life? And the idea of giving you more information, I hope, is not to shame you or make you feel guilt for the relationship between body size and risk of cardiovascular disease, but instead, to give you information that might help you take proactive care of your body, right?And proactive care might mean committing to an exercise routine. Proactive care might mean taking a statin. A statin is a very common cholesterol medicine like Lipitor. It might mean getting your blood pressure under control and taking an antihypertensive.VirginiaI also want to say on cholesterol, specifically, I did a piece that I’ll link to digging into the connection between nutrition and cholesterol. And the data is not as strong as I think a lot of doctors are telling folks.And I think the benefit of making dietary changes—the amount it could lower cholesterol—was not huge. It was like three points or six points or something in one of the studies we looked at. So if it’s making you crazy to count almonds, it’s possible that medication might be a more health promoting strategy for you. Because it will be less stressful and it will have a bigger benefit on your cholesterol than just trying to control it through diet and exercise.MaraYeah, I totally agree. I think there’s a really strong genetic component that we haven’t fully understood and medication is a totally reasonable approach and very safe approach. Honestly, statins are pretty benign medications. They’re pretty inexpensive, pretty minimal side effects, which is not to say– nobody’s paying me from the statin companies, I swear to God!–but yeah, like they’re, they’re pretty benign as medications go. And I think it’s a totally reasonable way to approach this issue.VirginiaI just think it’s one of those times where this is shame coming in, where it’s like, “You should be able to fix this with how you eat and exercise, and so you don’t get the medication unless you fail at that!” This is a framing that I’ve encountered from doctors. But what if we gave the medication, what if we also consider diet and exercise, but don’t make that a pass/fail situation in order to earn the medication? MaraYeah, that’s really interesting.And even the language you’re using Virginia is what we use in the medical record, and I’ve tried to stop it. But the way we’re taught to describe patients, is “patient failed XYZ treatment,” right? And I feel like we’re both at once, overly invested in pharmaceutical treatments, right and underinvested. They’re a very useful tool. And we moralize it, both pro and con? Sometimes, like, we moralize in favor of it. So if your BMI is 26 or above, you need to be on a GLP one agonist, which is just false, right?But on the other hand, I think we often underutilize medications because there’s this sense that you’re getting at —that you have to exhaust all of your like willpower options first, and it’s somehow failing to use a med. And that is really false too. They’re really useful tools. Science is really useful, and we shouldn’t feel ashamed to use it.VirginiaAll right. And our last question, I like because it just will give us a chance to kind of sum up some key points: As a post menopausal woman, I feel like I’m swimming in information, and I’m overwhelmed by it all. What are Dr Gordon’s top three pieces of advice out of all of the WHO meaning, if women at this time only did these three things, it would make the biggest difference, and then they just had it. You know, is, does it need to be different for perimenopause versus post menopause? Or maybe not.So what are your top three? Top three tips for surviving this life stage?MaraOh, my God, if only I knew! I’m flattered that you’re asking, and I will do my best to answer, but I don’t think there’s a right answer at all.So I’ve thought about a couple things. I will say that, you know, longevity and wellness and health span is extremely complicated, but it’s also kind of simple, right?So sometimes the advice that we’ve just heard over and over again is actually really, really good, right? So, sleep. Are we sleeping enough?Staying engaged with social relationships, that seems to be extremely important for longevity. And it’s kind of amazing, actually. When they do these long-term studies on people who are thriving into old age, like they have really strong relationships. And that is so important.Moving our bodies and it does not need to be punishing. Workouts can be gardening. I know Virginia, I love receiving your gardening content online. Gardening is an amazing form of exercise, and can be very life affirming, and does not need to feel like punishment. Just getting up, moving our bodies, sleeping enough, maintaining relationships, cultivating a sense of purpose and meaning in our lives. It’s actually been really studied right, that people who have a sense of meaning and have a sense of purpose in their lives tend to live longer and live longer, healthier lives.So all of this is to say that like it’s complicated, but sometimes it’s not. And there are a million people on the Internet who want to sell you a miracle drug, a miracle supplement, a miracle weighted vest, whatever. But sometimes simple, Simple is good. Easier said than done, right?VirginiaYeah, but start simple. That’s wonderful.MaraCan I ask? Virginia, what would your advice be? VirginiaI love the three areas you hit on: Sleep, social relations and exercise or moving your body. None of those are about weight loss or dieting. I think that’s really helpful for us to keep in mind that the things that might protect our health the most can also be very joyful as well. The idea that doing things that makes you happy and reduce your stress can be health-promoting is great. And I think that’s something especially in midlife. We are all incredibly busy. We’re holding a lot of things together. A lot of us are caregivers, maybe sandwich generation caregivers. So prioritizing your own joy in that feels really wonderful.ButterVirginiaAll right, so speaking of joy, let’s do some Butter! Dr. Mara, what do you have for us?MaraI have a Philadelphia-specific one, but hopefully it can be extrapolated to our listeners in different locations. So I have recently been really craving soft serve ice cream. And so I googled best soft serve in Philadelphia, and I found this Vietnamese coffee shop called Càphê Roasters, which is in North Philly. In a neighborhood called Kensington. And it has condensed milk soft serve ice cream. So good.And so I recently, I had to give a lecture at a medical school in the north part of the city early in the morning. It was like, 8am and I was like, “Oh, I’m never up in this neighborhood. I gotta get over there.” And I went after I gave my lecture, and I bought myself ice cream at 10:30 in the morning. And I ate it in my car, and it was so good. Condensed milk. So good. But soft serve in general, is my Butter. But for those of you in Philly, go to Càphê Roasters in Kensington and get the condensed milk. It is chef’s kiss, delicious.VirginiaAmazing. I’m gonna double your Butter and say ice cream in general is my Butter right now. We have a spare fridge freezer that I have just been loading up with all of the popsicles to get us through summer. But also: Ice cream dates. Something that comes up a lot for me as a co-parent is figuring out how to have one on one time with my kids. Since we have joint custody, they move as a package. So I get kid-free time, which is wonderful, but when they’re with me, it’s just me. So one thing I’ve been figuring out is pockets of time when I can take one kid out for ice cream. It’s usually when a sibling is at another activity, and so we have an hour to kill, and often we would just like, wait for the activity, or go home and come back, and then you’re just driving.And now I’m like, No, that will be our ice cream break!MaraI love that.VirginiaSo one kid’s at the library doing her book trivia team stuff, and the other kid and I are getting ice cream while we wait for her. And it’s great one on one time with kids. Obviously, the ice cream is delicious. The other thing I’ve realized, especially if you have younger kids who are still building restaurant skills, ice cream is a great practice run at being a person in a restaurant, which is really hard for kids understandably. It is one food thing that they’re excited to go do. And you do have to sit and practice eating it somewhat neatly. There’s a high mess potential. My pro-move for that is, always have wipes in your car, bring a pack of wipes in. MaraI love that, and it’s so intentional about sort of creating traditions with kids. That feels really special. But I will say I had my ice cream solo, and that was also really good solo ice cream too.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my guest is Ash Brandin of Screen Time Strategies, also know as The Gamer Educator on Instagram. Ash is also the author of a fantastic new book, Power On: Managing Screen Time to Benefit the Whole Family. Ash joined us last year to talk about how our attitudes towards screen time can be…diet-adjacent. I asked them to come back on the podcast this week because a lot of us are heading into back-to-school mode, which in my experience can mean feelingsss about screen routines. There are A LOT of really powerful reframings in this episode that might blow your mind—and make your parenting just a little bit easier. So give this one a listen and share it with anyone in your life who’s also struggling with kids and screen time.Today’s episode is free but if you value this conversation, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription. Burnt Toast is 100% reader- and listener-supported. We literally can’t do this without you! PS. You can take 10 percent off Power On, or any book we talk about on the podcast, if you order it from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, along with a copy of Fat Talk! (This also applies if you’ve previously bought Fat Talk from them. Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)Episode 208 TranscriptVirginiaFor anyone who missed your last episode, can you just quickly tell us who you are and what you do?AshI’m Ash Brandin. I use they/them pronouns.I am a middle school teacher by day, and then with my online presence, I help families and caregivers better understand and manage all things technology—screen time, screens. My goal is to reframe the way that we look at them as caregivers, to find a balance between freaking out about them and allowing total access. To find a way that works for us. VirginiaWe are here today to talk about your brilliant new book, which is called Power On: Managing Screen Time to Benefit the Whole Family. I can’t underscore enough how much everybody needs a copy of this book. I have already turned back to it multiple times since reading it a few months ago. It just really helps ground us in so many aspects of this conversation that we don’t usually have.AshI’m so glad to hear that it’s helpful! If people are new to who I am, I have sort of three central tenets of the work that I do: * Screen time is a social inequity issue. * Screens can be part of our lives without being the center of our lives. * Screens and screen time should benefit whole families.Especially in the last few years, we have seen a trend toward panic around technology and screens and smartphones and social media. I think that there are many reasons to be concerned around technology and its influence, especially with kids. But what’s missing in a lot of those conversations is a sense of empowerment about what families can reasonably do. When we focus solely on the fear, it ends up just putting caregivers in a place of feeling bad.VirginiaYou feel like you’re getting it wrong all the time.AshShame isn’t empowering. No one is like, “Well, I feel terrible about myself, so now I feel equipped to go make a change,” right?Empowerment is what’s missing in so many of those conversations and other books and things that have come out, because it’s way harder. It’s so much harder to talk about what you can really do and reasonably control in a sustainable way. But I’m an educator, and I really firmly believe that if anyone’s in this sort of advice type space, be it online or elsewhere, that they need to be trying to empower and help families instead of just capitalizing on fear.VirginiaWhat I found most powerful is that you really give us permission to say: What need is screen time meeting right now? And this includes caregivers’ needs. So not just “what need is this meeting for my child,” but what need is this meeting for me? I am here recording with you right now because iPads are meeting the need of children have a day off school on a day when I need to work. We won’t be interrupted unless I have to approve a screen time request, which I might in 20 minutes.I got divorced a couple years ago, and my kids get a lot more screen time now. Because they move back and forth between two homes, and each only has one adult in it. Giving myself permission to recognize that I have needs really got me through a lot of adjusting to this new rhythm of our family.AshAbsolutely. And when we’re thinking about what the need is, we also need to know that it’s going to change. So often in parenting, it feels like we have to come up with one set of rules and they have to work for everything in perpetuity without adjustment. That just sets us up for a sense of failure if we’re like, well, I had this magical plan that someone told me was going to work, and it didn’t. So I must be the problem, right? It all comes back to that “well, it’s my fault” place.VirginiaWhich is screens as diet culture.AshAll over again. We’re back at it. It’s just not helpful. If instead, we’re thinking about what is my need right now? Sometimes it’s “I have to work.” And sometimes it’s “my kid is sick and they just need to relax.” Sometimes it’s, as you were alluding to earlier, it’s we’ve all just had a day, right? We’ve been run ragged, and we just need a break, and that need is going to dictate very different things. If my kid is laid up on the couch and throwing up, then what screen time is going to be doing for them is very different than If I’m trying to work and I want them to be reasonably engaged in content and trying to maybe learn something. And that’s fine. Being able to center “this is what I need right now,” or “this is what we need right now,” puts us in a place of feeling like we’re making it work for us. Instead of feeling like we’re always coming up against some rule that we’re not going to quite live up to.VirginiaI’d love to talk about the inequity piece a little more too. As I said, going from a two parent household to a one parent household, which is still a highly privileged environment—but even just that small shift made me realize, wait a second. I think all the screen time guidance is just for typical American nuclear families. Ideally, with a stay at home parent.So can you talk about why so much of the standard guidance doesn’t apply to most of our families?AshIt’s not even just a stay at home parent. It’s assuming that there is always at least one caregiver who is fully able to be present. Mom, default parent, is making dinner, and Dad is relaxing after work and is monitoring what the kids are doing, right? And it’s one of those times where I’m like, have you met a family?VirginiaPeople are seven different places at once. It’s just not that simple.AshIt’s not that simple, right? It’s like, have you spent five minutes in a typical household in the last 10 years? This is not how it’s going, right?So the beginning of the book helps people unlearn and relearn what we may have heard around screens, including what research really does or doesn’t say around screens, and this social inequity piece. Because especially since the onset of COVID, screens are filling in systemic gaps for the vast majority of families.I’m a family with two caregivers in the home. We both work, but we’re both very present caregivers. So we’re definitely kind of a rarity, that we’re very privileged. We’re both around a lot of the time. And we are still using screens to fill some of those gaps.So whether it’s we don’t really have a backyard, or people are in a neighborhood where they can’t send their kids outside, or they don’t have a park or a playground. They don’t have other kids in the neighborhood, or it’s not a safe climate. Or you live in an apartment and you can’t have your neighbors complain for the fifth time that your kids are stomping around and being loud. Whatever it is—a lack of daycare, affordable after school care —those are all gaps. They all have to be filled. And we used to have different ways of filling those gaps, and they’ve slowly become less accessible or less available. So something has to fill them. What ends up often filling them is screens. And I’m not saying that that’s necessarily a good thing. I’d rather live in a world in which everyone is having their needs met accessibly and equitably. But that’s a much harder conversation, and is one that we don’t have very much say in. We participate in that, and we might vote for certain people, but that’s about all we can really do reasonably. So, in the meantime, we have to fill that in with something and so screens are often going to fill that in.Especially if you look at caregivers who have less privilege, who are maybe single caregivers, caregivers of color, people living in poverty—all of those aspects of scarcity impacts their bandwidth. Their capacity as a caregiver is less and spread thinner, and all of that takes away from a caregiver’s ability to be present. And there were some really interesting studies that were done around just the way that having less capacity affects you as a caregiver.And when I saw that data, I thought, well, of course. Of course people are turning to screens because they have nothing else to give from. And when we think of it that way, it’s hard to see that as some sort of personal failure, right? When we see it instead as, oh, this is out of necessity. It reframes the question as “How do I make screens work for me,” as opposed to, “I’m bad for using screens.”VirginiaRight. How do I use screen time to meet these needs and to hopefully build up my capacity so that I can be more present with my kids? I think people think if you’re using a lot of screens, you’re really never present. It’s that stereotype of the parent on the playground staring at their phone, instead of watching the kid play. When maybe the reason we’re at the playground is so my kid can play and I can answer some work emails. That doesn’t mean I’m not present at other points of the day.AshOf course. You’re seeing one moment. I always find that so frustrating. It just really feels like you you cannot win. If I were sitting there staring at my child’s every move in the park, someone would be like, “you’re being a helicopter,” right? And if I look at my phone because I’m trying to make the grocery pickup order—because I would rather my child have time at the playground than we spend our only free hour in the grocery store and having to manage a kid in the grocery store and not having fun together, right? Instead I’m placing a pickup order and they’re getting to run around on the playground. Now also somehow I’m failing because I’m looking at my phone instead of my kid. But also, we want kids to have independent time, and not need constant input. It really feels like you just can’t win sometimes. And being able to take a step back and really focus on what need is this meeting? And if it’s ours, and if it is helping me be more present and connected, that’s a win. When I make dinner in the evening, my kid is often having screen time, and I will put in an AirPod and listen to a podcast, often Burnt Toast, and that’s my decompression. Because I come home straight from work and other things. I’m not getting much time to really decompress.VirginiaYou need that airlock time, where you can decompress and then be ready to be present at dinner.I’m sure I’ve told you this before, but I reported a piece on screen time for Parents Magazine, probably almost 10 years ago at this point, because I think my older child was three or four. And I interviewed this Harvard researcher, this older white man, and I gave him this the dinner time example. I said, I’m cooking dinner. My kid is watching Peppa Pig so that I can cook dinner, and take a breath. And then we eat dinner together. And he said, “Why don’t you involve her in cooking dinner? Why don’t you give her a bag of flour to play with while you cook dinner?”AshOf all the things!VirginiaAnd I said to him: Because it’s 5pm on a Wednesday and who’s coming to clean the flour off the ceiling?AshA bag of flour. Of all the things to go to! VirginiaHe was like, “kids love to make a happy mess in the kitchen!” I was like, well I don’t love that. And it was just exactly that. My need didn’t matter to him at all. He was like, “h, well, if you just want to pacify your children…” I was like, I do, yes, in that moment.AshWell, and I think that’s another part of it is that someone says it to us like that, and we’re like, “well, I can’t say yes,” right? But in the moment, yeah, there are times where it’s like, I need you to be quiet. And as hard as this can be to think, sometimes it’s like right now, I need you to be quiet and convenient because of the situation we’re in. And that doesn’t mean we’re constantly expecting that of them, and hopefully that’s not something we’re doing all the time. But if the need is, oh my God, we’re all melting down, and if we don’t eat in the next 15 minutes, we’re going to have a two hour DEFCON1 emergency on our hands, then, yeah, I’m gonna throw Peppa Pig on so that we can all become better regulated humans in the next 15 minutes and not have a hungry meltdown. And that sounds like a much better alternative to me!VirginiaThan flour all over my kitchen on a Wednesday, right? I mean, I’ll never not be mad about it. It’s truly the worst parenting advice I’ve ever received. So thank you for giving us all more space as caregivers to be able to articulate our own needs and articulate what we need to be present. It’s what we can do in the face of gaps in the care system that leave us holding so much.That said: I think there are some nitty gritty aspects of this that we all struggle wit, so I want to talk about some of the nuts and bolts pieces. One of my biggest struggles is still the question of how much time is too much time? But you argue that time really isn’t the measure we should be using. As you’re saying, that need is going to vary day to day, and all the guidance that’s been telling us, like, 30 minutes at this age, an hour at this age, all of that is not particularly germane to our lives. So can you explain both why time is less what we should fixate on? And then how do I release myself? How do I divest from the screen time diet culture?AshOh man, I wish I had a magic bullet for that one. We’ll see what I can do.When I was writing this and thinking about it and making content about it, I kept thinking about you. Because the original time guidelines that everyone speaks back to—they’re from the AAP. And they have not actually been used in about 10 years, but people still bring them up all the time. The “no time under two” and “up to an hour up to age five” and “one to two hours, five to 12.” And if you really dig in, I was following footnote after footnote for a while, trying to really find where did this actually come from? It’s not based on some study that found that that’s the ideal amount of time. It really came from a desire to find this middle ground of time spent being physically idle. These guidelines are about wanting to avoid childhood obesity.VirginiaOf course.AshIt all comes back, right?VirginiaI should have guessed it.AshAnd so in their original recommendations, the AAP note that partially this is to encourage a balance with physical movement. Which, of course, assumes that if you are not sitting watching TV or using an iPad, that you will be playing volleyball or something.VirginiaYou’ll automatically be outside running around.AshExactly, of course, those are the only options.VirginiaIt also assumes that screen time is never physical. But a lot of kids are very physical when they’re watching screens.AshExactly. And it, of course, immediately also imposes a morality of one of these things is better—moving your body is always better than a screen, which is not always going to be true, right? All these things have nuance in them. But I thought that was so interesting, and it shouldn’t have surprised me, and yet somehow it still did. And of course it is good to find movement that is helpful for you and to give your kids an enjoyment of being outside or moving their bodies, or playing a sport. And putting all of that in opposition to something else they may enjoy, like a screen, really quickly goes to that diet culture piece of “well, how many minutes have you been doing that?” Because now we have to offset it with however many minutes you should be running laps or whatever.So those original recommendations are coming from a place of already trying to mitigate the negatives of sitting and doing something sort of passively leisurely. And in the last 10 years, they’ve moved away from that, and they now recommend what’s called making a family media plan. Which actually I think is way better, because it is much more prioritizing what are you using this for? Can you be doing it together? What can you do? It’s much more reasonable, I think. But many people still go back to those original recommendations, because like you said, it’s a number. It’s simple. Just tell me.VirginiaWe love to grab onto a number and grade ourselves.AshJust tell me how much time so that I can tell myself I’m I’m doing a good job, right? But you know, time is just one piece of information. It can be so specific with what am I using that time to do? If I’m sitting on my computer and doing work for an hour and a half, technically, that is screen time, but it is going to affect me a lot differently than if I’m watching Netflix or scrolling my phone for an hour and a half. I will feel very different after those things. And I think it’s really important to be aware of that, and to make our kids aware of that from an early age, so that they are thinking about more than just, oh, it’s been X amount of minutes. And therefore this is okay or not okay.Because all brains and all screens are different. And so one kid can watch 20 minutes of Paw Patrol, and they’re going to be bouncing off the walls, because, for whatever reason, that’s just a show that’s really stimulating for them. And somebody else can sit and watch an hour and a half of something, and they’ll be completely fine. So if you have a kid that is the first kid, and after 20 minutes, you’re like, oh my god, it’s not even half an hour. This is supposed to be an okay amount. This is how they’re acting. We’re right back to that “something’s wrong. I’m wrong. They’re bad,” as opposed to, “What is this telling me? What’s something we could do differently? Could we try a different show? Could we try maybe having some physical movement before or after, see if that makes a difference?” It just puts us more in a place of being curious to figure out again, how do I make this work for me? What is my need? How do I make it work for us?And not to rattle on too long, but there was a big study done in the UK, involving over 120,000 kids. And they were trying to find what they called “the Goldilocks amount of time.”VirginiaYes. This is fascinating.AshSo it’s the amount of time where benefit starts to wane. Where we are in that “just right”amount. Before that, might still be okay, but after that we’re going to start seeing some negative impacts, particularly when it comes to behavior, for example.What they found in general was that the Goldilocks number tended to be around, I think, an hour and 40 minutes a day. Something around an hour and a half a day. But if you looked at certain types of screens, for computers or TV, it was much higher than that. It was closer to three hours a day before you started seeing some negative impacts. And even for things like smartphones, it was over an hour a day. But what I found so so interesting, is that they looked at both statistical significance, but also what they called “minimally important difference,” which was when you would actually notice these negative changes, subjectively, as a caregiver.So this meant how much would a kid have to be on a screen for their adult at home to actually notice “this is having an impact on you,” regularly. And that amount was over four and a half hours a day on screens.VirginiaBefore caregivers were like, “Okay, this is too much!” And the fact that the statistically significant findings for the minutia of what the researchers looking at is so different from what you as a caregiver are going to actually be thrown by. That was really mind blowing to me.AshRight, And that doesn’t mean that statistical significance isn’t important, necessarily. But we’re talking about real minutiae. And that doesn’t always mean that you will notice any difference in your actual life.Of course, some people are going to hear this and go, “But I don’t want my kid on a screen for four and a half hours.” Sure. That’s completely reasonable. And if your kid is having a hard time after an hour, still reasonable, still important. That’s why we can think less about how many minutes has it been exactly, and more, what am I noticing? Because if I’m coming back to the need and you’re like, okay, I have a meeting and I need an hour, right? If you know, “I cannot have them use their iPad for an hour, because they tend to become a dysregulated mess in 25 minutes,” that’s much more useful information than “Well, it says they’re allowed to have an hour of screen time per day so this should be fine because it’s an hour.”VirginiaRight.AshIt sets you up for more success.VirginiaAnd if you know your kid can handle that hour fine and can, in fact, handle more fine, it doesn’t mean, “well you had an hour of screen time while I was in a meeting so now we can’t watch a show together later to relax together.” You don’t have to take away and be that granular with the math of the screens. You can be like, yeah, we needed an extra hour for this meeting, and we’ll still be able to watch our show later. Because that’s what I notice with my kids. If I start to try to take away from some other screen time, then it’s like, “Oh, god, wait, but that’s the routine I’m used to!” You can’t change it, and that’s fair.AshYes, absolutely. And I would feel that way too, right? If someone were giving me something extra because it was a convenience to them, but then later was like, “oh, well, I have to take that from somewhere.” But they didn’t tell me that. I would be like, Excuse me, that’s weird. That’s not how that works, right? This was a favor to you, right?VirginiaYeah, exactly. I didn’t interrupt your meeting. You’re welcome, Mom.Where the time anxiety does tend to kick in, though, is that so often it’s hard for kids to transition off screens. So then parents think, “Well, it was too much time,” or, “The screen is bad.” This is another very powerful reframing in your work. So walk us through why just because a kid is having a hard time getting off screens doesn’t mean it was too much and it doesn’t mean that screens are evil? AshSo an example I use many times that you can tweak to be whatever thing would come up for your kid is bath time. I think especially when kids are in that sort of toddler, three, four age. When my kid was that age, we had a phase where transitioning to and from the bathtub was very hard. Getting into it was hard. But then getting out of it was hard.VirginiaThey don’t ever want to get in. And then they never want to leave.AshThey never want to get out, right? And in those moments when my kid was really struggling to get out of the bathtub, imagine how it would sound if I was like, “Well, it it’s the bathtub’s fault.” Like it’s the bath’s fault that they are having such a hard time, it’s because of the bubbles, and it smells too good, and I’ve made it too appealing and the water’s too warm. Like, I mean, I sound unhinged, right?Virginia“We’re going to stop bathing you.”AshExactly. We would not say, “Well, we can’t have baths anymore.” Or when we go to the fun playground, and it’s really hard to leave the fun playground, we don’t blame the playground. When we’re in the grocery store and they don’t want to leave whichever aisle, we don’t blame the grocery store. And we also don’t stop taking them to the grocery store. We don’t stop going to playgrounds. We don’t stop having baths. Instead, we make different decisions, right? We try different things. We start a timer. We have a different transition. We talk about it beforehand. We strategize, we try things.VirginiaGive a “Hey, we’re leaving in a few minutes!” so they’re not caught off guard.AshExactly. We talk about it. Hey, last time it was really hard to leave here, we kind of let them know ahead of time, or we race them to the car. We find some way to make it more fun, to make the transition easier, right? We get creative, because we know that, hey, they’re going to have to leave the grocery store. They’re going to have to take baths in a reasonable amount of time as they grow up into their lives. We recognize the skill that’s happening underneath it.And I think with screens, we don’t always see those underlying skills, because we see it as this sort of superfluous thing, right? It’s not needed. It’s not necessary. Well, neither is going to a playground, technically.A lot of what we do is not technically required, but the skill underneath is still there. So when they are struggling with ending screen time, is it really the screen, or is it that it’s hard to stop doing something fun. It’s hard to stop in the middle of something. It’s hard to stop if you have been playing for 20 minutes and you’ve lost every single race and you don’t want to stop when you’ve just felt like you’ve lost over and over again, right? You want one more shot to one more shot, right?People are going to think, “Well, but screens are so much different than those other things.” Yes, a screen is designed differently than a playground or a bath. But we are going to have kids who are navigating a technological and digital world that we are struggle to even imagine, right? We’re seeing glimpses of it, but it’s going to be different than what we’re experiencing now, and we want our kids to be able to navigate that with success. And that comes back to seeing the skills underneath. So when they’re struggling with something like that, taking the screen out of it, and asking yourself, how would I handle this if it were anything else. How would I handle this if it were they’re struggling to leave a friend’s house? I probably wouldn’t blame the friend, and I wouldn’t blame their house, and I wouldn’t blame their boys.VirginiaWe’re never seeing that child again! Ash I would validate and I would tell them, it’s hard. And I would still tell them “we’re ending,” and we would talk about strategies to make it easier next time. And we would get curious and try something, and we would be showing our kids that, “hey, it’s it’s okay to have a hard time doing that thing. It’s okay to have feelings about it. And we’re still gonna do it. We’re still going to end that thing.”Most of the time, the things that we are struggling with when it comes to screens actually boil down to one of three things, I call them the ABCs. It’s either Access, which could be time, or when they’re having it, or how much. Behavior, which you’re kind of bringing up here. And Content, what’s on the screen, what they’re playing, what they what they have access to.And so sometimes we might think that the problem we’re seeing in front of us is a behavior problem, right? I told them to put the screen away. They’re not putting the screen away. That’s a behavior problem. But sometimes it actually could be because it’s an access issue, right? It’s more time than they can really handle at that given moment. Or it could be content, because it’s content that makes it harder to start and stop. So a big part of the book is really figuring out, how do I know what problem I’m even really dealing with here? And then what are some potential things that I can do about it? To try to problem solve, try to make changes and see if this helps, and if it helps, great, keep it. And if not, I can get curious and try something else. And so a lot of it is strategies to try and ways to kind of, you know, backwards engineer what might be going on, to figure out how to make it work for you, how to make it better.VirginiaIt’s so helpful to feel like, okay, there’s always one more thing I can tweak and adjust. Versus “it’s all a failure. We have to throw it out.” That kind of all or nothing thinking that really is never productive. The reason I think it’s so helpful that you draw that parallel with the bath or the play date is it reminds us that there are some kids for whom transitions are just always very difficult—like across the board. So you’re not just seeing a screen time problem. You’re being reminded “My kid is really building skills around transitions. We don’t have them yet.” We hope we will have them at some point. But this is actually an opportunity to work on that, as opposed to a problem. We can actually practice some of these transition skills.AshAnd I really like coming back to the skill, because if we’re thinking of it as a skill, then we’re probably more likely to tell our kids that it’s a skill, too. Because if we’re just thinking of it as like, well, it’s a screen. It’s the screen’s fault, it’s the screen’s fault. Then we might not say those literal words to our kids, but we might say, like, it’s always so hard to turn off the TV. Why is that, right? We’re talking about it as if it’s this sort of amorphous, like it’s only about the television, or it’s only about the iPad, and we’re missing the part of making it clear to our kids that, hey, this is a skill that you’re working on, and we work on this skill in different ways.VirginiaI did some good repair with my kids after reading your book. Because I was definitely falling into the trap of talking about screen addiction. I thought I was saying to them, “It’s not your fault. The screens are programmed to be bad for us in this way” So I thought, I was like at least not blaming them, but being like, we need less screens because they’re so dangerous.But then I read your book, and I was like, oh, that’s not helpful either. And I did have one of my kids saying, “Am I bad because I want to watch screens all the time?” And I was like, oh, that’s too concrete and scary.And again, to draw the parallel with diet culture: It’s just like telling kids sugar is bad, and then they think they’re bad because they like sugar. So I did do some repair. I was like, “I read this book and now I’ve learned that that was not right.” They were like, oh, okay. We’re healing in my house from that, so thank you.AshOh, you’re very welcome, and I’m glad to hear that!I think about those parallels with food all the time, because sometimes it just helps me think, like, wait, would I be wanting to send this message about food or exercise or whatever? And if the answer is no, then how can I tweak it so that I’m sending a message I’d be okay with applying to other things. And I like being able to make those parallels with my kid. In my household right now, we’re practicing flexibility. Flexibility is a skill that we’re working on in so many parts of our lives. And when I say we, I do mean we. Me, everybody is working on this.VirginiaParents can use more flexibility, for sure.AshAbsolutely. And so like, when those moments are coming up, you know, I’m trying to say, like, hey, like, what skill is this right now? Who’s having to be flexible right now? Flexible can be a good thing, right? We might be flexible by saying yes to eating dinner on the couch and watching a TV show. That’s flexibility. Flexibility isn’t just adjust your plans to be more convenient to me, child, so that I can go do something as an adult. And coming back to those skills so they can see, oh, okay, this isn’t actually just about screens. This applies to every part of these of my life, or these different parts of my life, and if I’m working on it here, oh, wow, it feels easier over there. And so they can see that this applies throughout their life, and kind of feel more of that buy in of like, oh, I’m getting better at that. Or that was easier. That was harder. We want them to see that across the board.VirginiaOh, my God, absolutely.Let’s talk about screens and neurodivergence a little bit. So one of my kiddos is neurodivergent, and I can both see how screens are wonderful for them at the end of a school day, when they come home and they’re really depleted. Screen time is the thing they need to rest and regulate. And they love the world building games, which gives them this whole world to control and explore. And there’s so much there that’s wonderful.And, they definitely struggle more than their sibling with this transition piece, with getting off it. One kid will naturally put down the iPad at some point and go outside for a bit, and this kid will not. And it creates more anxiety for parents. Because neurodivergent kids may both need screens—in ways that maybe we’re not totally comfortable with, but need to get comfortable with—and then struggle with the transition piece. So how do you think about this question differently with neurodivergence? Or or is it really the same thing you’re just having to drill in differently?AshI think it is ultimately the same thing, but it certainly is going to feel quite more heightened. And I think especially for certain aspects of neurodivergence, especially, I think it feels really heightened because of some of the ways that they might be discussed, particularly online, when it comes to how they relate to technology. I think about ADHD, we’ll see that a lot. Where I’ll see many things online about, like, “kids with ADHD should never be on a screen. They should never be on a device, because they are so dopamine-seeking.” And I have to just say that I find that to be such an ableist framing. Because with ADHD, we’re talking about a dopamine deficient brain. And I don’t think that we would be having that same conversation about someone needing insulin, right? Like, we wouldn’t be saying, like, oh yeah, nope, they can’t take that insulin. VirginiaThey’re just craving that insulin they need to stay alive.AshA kid seeking a thing that they’re that they are somehow deficient in—that’s not some sort of defiant behavior. VirginiaNo, it’s a pretty adaptive strategy.AshAbsolutely, it is. And we want kids to know that nobody’s brain is good or bad, right? There’s not a good brain or a bad brain. There are all brains are going to have things that are easier or harder. And it’s about learning the brain that you’re in, and what works or doesn’t work for the brain that you’re in.And all brains are different, right? Neurotypical brains and neurodivergent brains within those categories are obviously going to be vastly different. What works for one won’t work for another, and being able to figure out what works for them, instead of just, “because you have this kind of brain, you shouldn’t ever do this thing,” that’s going to set them up for more success. And I think it’s great that you mentioned both how a screen can be so regulating, particularly for neurodivergent brains, and then the double-edged sword of that is that then you have to stop. VirginiaTransition off back into the world.AshSo if the pain point is a transition, what is it really coming from? Is it coming from the executive function piece of “I don’t know how to find a place to stop?” A lot of people, particularly kids ADHD, they often like games that are more open-ended. So they might like something like a Minecraft or an Animal Crossing or the Sims where you can hyperfocus and deep dive into something. But what’s difficult about that is that, you know, if I play Mario Kart, the level ends, it’s a very obvious ending.VirginiaRight? And you can say, “One more level, and we’re done.”AshExactly. We’ve reached the end of the championship. I’m on the podium. I quit now, right?But there’s a never ending series of of tasks with a more open-ended game. And especially if I’m in my hyper focus zone, right? I can just be thinking, like, well, then I can do this and this and this and this and this, right?And I’m adding on to my list, and the last thing I want to do in that moment is get pulled out of it when I’m really feeling like I’m in the zone. So if that’s the kind of transition that’s difficult. And it’s much less about games and more about “how do I stop in the middle of a project?” Because that’s essentially what that is.And that would apply if I’m at school and I’m in the middle of an essay and we’re finishing it up tomorrow. Or I’m trying to decorate a cake, and we’re trying to walk out the door and I have to stop what I’m doing and come back later. So one of the tricks that I have found really helpful is to ask the question of, “How will you know when you’re done?” Or how will you know you’re at a stopping point? What would a stopping point be today? And getting them to sort of even visualize it, or say it out loud, so that they can think about, “Oh, here’s how I basically break down a giant task into smaller pieces,” because that’s essentially what that is.VirginiaThat’s a great tip. Ash“Okay, you have five minutes. What is the last thing you’re going to do today?” Because then it’s concrete in terms of, like, I’m not asking the last thing, and it will take you half an hour, right? I’m at, we have five minutes. What’s the last thing you’re wrapping up? What are you going to do?Then, if it’s someone who’s very focused in this world, and they’re very into that world, then that last thing can also be our transition out of it. As they’re turning it off, the very first thing we’re saying to them is, “So what was that last thing you were doing?”VirginiaOh, that’s nice.AshThen they’re telling it to us, and then we can get curious. We can ask questions. We can get a little into their world to help them transition out of that world. That doesn’t mean that we have to understand what they’re telling us, frankly. It doesn’t mean we have to know all the nuance. But we can show that interest. I think this is also really, really important, because then we are showing them it’s not us versus the screen. We’re not opposing the screen, like it’s the enemy or something. And we’re showing them, “Hey, I can tell you’re interested in this, so I’m interested in it because you are.” Like, I care about you, so I want to know more.VirginiaAnd then they can invite you into their world, which what a lot of neurodivergent kids need. We’re asking them to be part of the larger world all the time. And how nice we can meet them where they are a little more.AshAbsolutely. The other thing I would say is that something I think people don’t always realize, especially if they don’t play games as much, or if they are not neurodivergent and playing games, is they might miss that video games actually are extremely well-accommodated worlds, in terms of accommodating neurodivergence.So thinking about something like ADHD, to go back to that example, it’s like, okay, some really common classroom accommodations for ADHD, from the educator perspective, the accommodations I see a lot are frequent check ins, having a checklist, breaking down a large task into smaller chunks, objectives, having a visual organizer.Well, I think about a video game, and it’s like, okay, if I want to know what I have available to me, I can press the pause menu and see my inventory at any time. If I want to know what I should be doing, because I have forgotten, I can look at a menu and see, like, what’s my objective right now? Or I can bring up the map and it will show me where I supposed to be going. If I start to deviate from what I’m supposed to be doing, the game will often be like, “Hey, don’t forget, you’re supposed to be going over there!” It’ll get me back on task. If I’m trying to make a potion that has eight ingredients, the game will list them all out for me, and it will check them off as I go, so I can visually see how I’m how I’m achieving this task. It does a lot of that accommodation for me. And those accommodations are not as common in the real world, or at least not as easily achieved.And so a lot of neurodivergent kids will succeed easily in these game worlds. And we might think “oh because it’s addicting, or the algorithm, or it’s just because they love it” But there are often these structural design differences that actually make it more accessible to them.And if we notice, oh, wow, they have no problem knowing what to do when they’re playing Zelda, because they just keep checking their objective list all the time or whatever—that’s great information.VirginiaAnd helps us think, how can we do that in real life? AshExactly. We can go to them and say, hey, I noticed you, you seem to check your inventory a lot when you’re playing that game. How do we make it so that when you look in your closet, you can just as easily see what shirts you own. Whatever the thing may be, so that we’re showing them, “hey, bring that into the rest of your world that works for you here.” Let’s make it work for you elsewhere, instead of thinking of it as a reason they’re obsessed with screens, and now we resent the screens for that. Bring that in so that it can benefit the rest of their lives.VirginiaI’m now like, okay, that just reframes something else very important for me. You have such a helpful way of helping us divest from the guilt and the shame and actually look at this in a positive and empowering way for us and our kids. And I’m just so grateful for it. It really is a game changer for me.AshOh, thank you so much. I’m so glad to hear that it was helpful and empowering for you, and I just hope that it can be that for others as well.ButterAshSo my family and I have been lucky enough to spend quite a lot of time in Japan. And one of the wonderful things about Japan is they have a very huge bike culture. I think people think of the Netherlands as Bike cCentral, but Japan kind of rivals them.And they have a particular kind of bike that you cannot get in the United States. It’s called a Mamachari, which is like a portmanteau of mom and chariot. And it’s sort of like a cargo bike, but they are constructed a little differently and have some features that I love. And so when I’ve been in Japan, we are on those bikes. I’m always like, I love this kind of bike. I want this kind of bike for me forever. And my recent Butter has been trying to find something like that that I can have in my day to day life. And I found something recently, and got a lovely step through bike on Facebook Marketplace. VirginiaSo cool! That’s exciting to find on marketplace, too.AshOh yes, having a bike that like I actually enjoy riding, I had my old bike from being a teenager, and it just was not functional. I was like, “This is not fun.” And now having one that I enjoy, I’m like, oh yes. I feel like a kid again. It’s lovely.VirginiaThat’s a great Butter. My Butter is something both my kids and my pets and I are all really enjoying. I’m gonna drop a link in the chat for you. It is called a floof, and it is basically a human-sized dog bed that I found on Etsy. It’s like, lined with fake fur.AshMy God. I’m looking at it right now.VirginiaIsn’t it hilarious?AshWow. I’m so glad you sent a picture, because that is not what I was picturing?Virginia I can’t describe it accurately. It’s like a cross between a human-sized dog bed and a shopping bag? Sort of? AshYes, yes, wow. It’s like a hot tub.VirginiaIt’s like a hot tub, but no water. You just sit in it. I think they call it a cuddle cave. I don’t understand how to explain it, but it’s the floof. And it’s in our family room. And it’s not inexpensive, but it does basically replace a chair. So if you think of it as a furniture purchase, it’s not so bad. There’s always at least a cat or a dog sleeping in it. Frequently a child is in it. My boyfriend likes to be in it. Everyone gravitates towards it. And you can put pillows in it or a blanket.Neurodivergent people, in particular, really love it, because I think it provides a lot of sensory feedback? And it’s very enclosed and cozy. It’s great for the day we’re having today, which is a very laid back, low demand, watch as much screen as you want, kind of day. So I’ve got one kid bundled into the floof right now with a bunch of blankets in her iPad, and she’s so happy. AshOh my gosh. Also, it kind of looks like the person is sitting in a giant pita, which I also love.VirginiaThat’s what it is! It’s like a giant pita, but soft and cozy. It’s like being in a pita pocket. And I’m sure there are less expensive versions, this was like, 300 something dollars, so it is an investment. But they’re handmade by some delightful person in the Netherlands.Whenever we have play dates, there are always two or three kids, snuggled up in it together. There’s something extremely addictive about it. I don’t know. I don’t really know how to explain why it’s great, but it’s great.AshOh, that is lovely.VirginiaAll right, well tell obviously, everyone needs to go to their bookstore and get Power On: Managing Screen Time to Benefit the Whole Family. Where else can we find you, Ash? How can we support your work?AshYou can find me on Instagram at the gamer educator, and I also cross post my Instagram posts to Substack, and I’m on Substack as Screen Time Strategies. It’s all the same content, just that way you’re getting it in your inbox without, without having to go to Instagram. So if that’s something that you are trying to maybe move away from, get it via Substack. And my book Power On: Managing Screen Time to Benefit the Whole Family is available starting August 26 is when it fully releases.VirginiaAmazing. Thank you so much. This was really great.AshThank you so much for having me back.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.For our last August hiatus episode, we’re looking back at a conversation we ran back in February of this year — exploring the work of attorney turned self-help guru Mel Robbins.Did Mel steal the concept of “let them?” Is she just Andrew Huberman for the “We Can Do Hard Things” crowd? Is high-fiving yourself in the mirror every morning a diet? As you’ll hear, Corinne and I didn’t totally agree… until we did. Let’s get into it.To hear our discussion, you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. Subscriptions are $7 per month or $70 for the year.Episode 207 TranscriptCorinneToday, we are talking about motivational speaker and author Mel Robbins and we have maybe some surprising opinions on this topic.VirginiaWe have different takes about Mel Robbins. Some evolving takes as well. In the course of researching this episode, I think we went on a little Mel Robbins journey.CorinneI’m going to introduce this topic by saying that I first heard about Mel Robbins a few weeks ago. My coach at the gym was like, “Have you heard of Mel Robbins?” And I was like, “Hmm, sounds familiar? What is that?” And she was like, “I just listened to her on this podcast, and I saw she was on Glennon Doyle, and I was just wondering if you knew who she was.” And I didn’t know who she was, but I was like I’ll listen to her Glennon Doyle episode.I listened to it, and I liked it. I found it interesting and helpful.And then, just a few days later, you messaged me, and you were like, “should we talk about this person on the podcast?”VirginiaYes, because I had no idea who she was. We should be clear, this is someone with 22 million followers on Instagram. Us not knowing her was an oversight. She’s an enormous celebrity, but I had somehow missed her completely. Amy texted me one of her reels and was like, this feels like a Burnt Toast episode waiting to happen and I sent it to you.CorinneAnd I was kind of like… No.VirginiaYou were like, she’s not a diet. I like her. It’s fine.CorinneI enjoyed her episode on We Can Do Hard Things. She’s a run of the mill self help-y person.Just to give a little background, she has been a self help person for a long time. One of her first biggest things was she did one of the early TEDx talks that went insanely viral.VirginiaIn about 2011 or 2012.CorinneShe had this book called The Five Second Rule. The concept is basically if you’re thinking about doing something, count down to five and then do it. Which, like, how is that helpful? But okay, a lot of people found it extremely helpful.VirginiaIs it that it’s supposed to make quicker to do a thing you don’t want to do, or make you pause before doing a thing you should not do?CorinneI think it’s preventing you from overthinking / talking out yourself out of something.VirginiaI guess that’s not my struggle. But I can see for people for whom that is a struggle, having somebody push you off the diving board—I mean, as someone who would never jump off a diving board, I would need to be pushed. I get it.CorinneShe also has a podcast.VirginiaThe Wall Street Journal calls her “a billion view podcaster,” and Time Magazine says she gives millions of listeners around the globe a reason to believe in themselves.CorinneShe’s very, very, very popular.VirginiaVery popular. I also want to note that she is someone who is writing books about how to change your habits, how to overcome emotional hurdles. She is not a psychologist. She is not a social worker. She is not a therapist of any kind. She is a former attorney who first became famous because she started doing legal analysis on CNN. She covered the George Zimmerman trial for them and then that led to her first book in 2011 which was called, Stop Saying You’re Fine. So this high powered lawyer backstory to self help Guru is a is an interesting path.CorinneSo I did get her book to research for this episode—VirginiaYou got the newest book?CorinneI have her newest book, The Let Them Theory, but I want to talk about that later.But at the beginning of that book, she goes over her story, and to be honest, sitting here right now, can’t remember the details. But she has a struggle. Either she or husband got laid off, they’re having a hard time, and then she’s depressed, and that’s where the five second rule comes from. You’re saying she’s this high powered lawyer who goes into self help, but her story is like “I was struggling. I came up with this theory.”VirginiaOkay, I also just want to note that—not to take away from her truth about herself—but Wikipedia also taught me that she and her husband own homes in three locations.CorinneI mean, she’s very wealthy right now.VirginiaI’m just holding her personal struggle, overcoming how hard things were, and she is a former-attorney-turned-self-help-guru who owns three homes. So we can just hold those things together.CorinneHer struggle was 15 years ago.VirginiaDifferent time! Maybe one home, one-and-a-half homes tops at that point.CorinneDo you want to talk kind of about her Instagram reels and the diet culture of it all?VirginiaYes. My assignment for this episode was Mel Robbins’ social media, which I spent some time on, and I’m still recovering from a little bit.Her whole aesthetic on Instagram—you know how every influencer has their branding? Hers is very talk-to-the-camera, intense little pep talk videos. Or it’s excerpts from the podcast. She always starts the intense pep talks with like, “Hey, it’s your buddy Mel.” That’s her little like, “Hey, it’s your buddy Mel.” So this is our buddy, Mel, we’re going to talk about.And, you know, they’re a real mix. Some of them are the five second rule. Sometimes it’s about letting go of your expectations for other people.There was one reel I really liked where she’s just saying, like, if you’re going through a really hard time, like you have a terrible ex, or you are surviving some kind of trauma and you’re feeling overwhelmed and stressed out, that is actually what you should be doing. That’s not you failing, that’s you having a logical reaction to a hard thing. And I was like, yes, okay, I’m on board that seems right. It is important that it’s okay for us to be sad when things are sad and angry, when things are unfair. Especially given the current state of the world. That vibe I’m here for.But in this reel, she talks about how important it is to drink a glass of water in the morning before you drink your coffee.And again, this is a former attorney turned life guru, so I’m not clear why is Mel Robbins the expert for me on water before coffee?CorinneI mean, I don’t know, but it does seem like a good idea.VirginiaI’m not saying it’s not a good idea. I’m just saying, why is she presenting it?CorinneShe’s famous now, she gets to give advice on anything she wants.VirginiaShe starts talking about hormones and it gets very science-y, but there are no citations. There’s not even a nutritionist sitting next to her. Maybe this is from a podcast interview she did with a nutritionist? I don’t know. But there is no sourcing. She has this very emphatic way of speaking, and she’s like, this is the thing you need to do. And I just watched this, and I was like, oh, so she’s a Huberman bro! This is Huberman husband stuff, right?CorinneI mean, it’s self help! She’s telling you what to do.VirginiaMel Robbins would love to tell us all what to do.CorinneIn the intro to her book, where she’s talking about how she got into writing these books, she refers to having done PhD levels of research.VirginiaBut on what? Because the science about hydration and coffee intake is very different from the research on how we move through big feelings during trauma. These are not related concepts, Corinne. So she’s doing PhD level research on everything?CorinneShe has a PhD in giving advice.VirginiaDo you want to talk us through the morning routine post?CorinneSo, “this is the morning routine that’ll supercharge your energy all day.”Virginia“Backed by science,” that’s what she says.CorinneStarts with getting up when the alarm goes off. Once again, it’s not bad advice. Like, yes. But also is Mel Robbins telling you to do it going to make you do it? I don’t know.VirginiaSometimes you’re just not going to do that, and you might still have an okay day. It doesn’t mean the whole day fell apart because you didn’t get up the second your alarm went off.CorinneThe next thing, making your bed, tidying your space—another very common self help tip!VirginiaIt’s “the simplest way to practice discipline,” Corinne. “A promise kept no matter what.”CorinneI’m going to be honest, I feel okay with the first two. Number three, “high five yourself in the mirror.” Like, no. I’m never going to do that. I hate that. I really hate it.VirginiaI can’t stop laughing. She’s so serious in the photo. She has a selfie of her high fiving herself, and she’s so serious in the photo. Like she is earnestly high fiving herself.CorinneLet me tell you, “giving yourself a high five in the mirror rewires your brain to focus on self love and positive reinforcement.”VirginiaThe science behind that is all in her book, The High Five Habit. So there you go. The PhD level science that she’s done to confirm. I just imagine saying to someone actually struggling with depression or anxiety, like, “why don’t you just high five yourself in the mirror?” And, like, I think they would be justified in throat punching you. Like, “I’m sorry your mom just died. Have you tried high fiving yourself in the mirror?” Like, fuck you.CorinneThis is the thing, right? This is what we talk about. It’s like, exercising does make us feel better, but you can’t tell someone struggling, “Just exercise.” Like, this advice is good. Like, get out of bed, have a glass of water. Exercise. And, no one needs that advice. Everyone knows that.VirginiaHigh fiving yourself in the mirror I’m going to say is not good advice. Like, I’m going to say for most of us, that’s not going to be transformative in any way. It’s just going to be dumb.Okay, then we get to the hydration stuff again. “Delay your caffeine one to two hours.” And then here we are. Andrew Huberman again, “Take in the morning light. Get outside ASAP.”I currently have to wake up at five o’clock to get my middle schooler on the bus and it is dark for the next two hours. So I would be going outside in the dark. I do take in the morning light when I then drag an exhausted 11 year old out to the bus stop every morning. That counts. Okay, I get a gold star.CorinneSo she definitely has a self help-y thing going on.VirginiaThen the next reel I want you to look at is the one that references intermittent fasting.In this one, she says, if you’re going through a divorce, if you’re feeling kind of lost in life, if you have no clue what you want to do, here’s a tip from your friend Mel Robbins, just do something really, really hard. As well as doing the really hard thing you’re going through. So she did five days of intensive intermittent fasting “for her gut health”—I’m using air quotes—and that is how she got through some hard time.CorinneYeah. I mean, her other suggestion is training for a marathon. I sort of see a kernel of something here, but I can’t imagine actually giving someone this advice.VirginiaHaving gone through a divorce in recent memory, we can use me as an example. I felt like during those months, I was doing pretty good to keep the ball moving on my divorce. Like, keep parenting my children as best I could. Keep my business afloat. I did not need to be intermittent fasting on top of any of that. I didn’t. I was doing a lot. It was hard. I was doing all these hard things. I felt like I had enough. I don’t think training for a marathon would have done fucking anything for me. I just truly don’t. And I just needed to get through. The hard thing was enough.I never want to demonize coping strategies, and so if someone’s like, training for my marathon did help me through my divorce. Like, amazing. But it feels like choosing a coping strategy that will give you a big block of time that’s filled with something else to distract you. And I just think, if it wasn’t diet- or exercise-related. Like, if it was like, “I’m binge drinking every Saturday night as my coping strategy,” that also fills a lot of time, also distracts you, takes your mind off your problems. But then suddenly we have a totally different narrative around it, you know? So it’s like the combining of we’re going to give you this big, all consuming thing, and we’re going to make it something that we attach a lot of moral virtue and like social performance to. And that somehow is going to be why it’s going to be helpful.CorinneYes, the things she’s suggesting are committing to dry January fitness goals, building better money habits.VirginiaYeah, all good. But are they all projects you need? They’re all in and of themselves hard, complicated projects. Do you need to do them while in some other crisis?CorinneNo, I don’t think you do.VirginiaSo this is why I’m saying yes, Mel Robbins is a diet. There’s just this make it as hard as possible, push yourself to do more. Everything Sounds like a simple, easy tip, but she wants you to do 900 of them. That’s what I’m pushing back against. And then, I mean, there were a couple other reels. We don’t need to take them one by one, but, she’s done podcast episodes on how to boost your metabolism for weight loss. She’s done podcast episodes about working out for menopause, where they’re just like, you want to be strong, not skinny. But everyone talking in that conversation is extremely skinny.CorinneOkay, I want to talk a little bit about her book. Probably the reason we both have just come across her is because she has a new book out. The book is called The Let Them Theory. And this is what she was talking about on We Can Do Hard Things. So this is what I listened to a podcast episode about and was like, I like it.The Let Them Theory is basically letting other people do what they want to do. So it’s like, instead of making yourself miserable trying to control what other people are doing, let them. The story that she gives at the beginning to set this all up is her kid was going to prom, and they went to go take Prom pictures with a big group of kids before the event, and it started pouring rain. And then it turns out her son didn’t have a restaurant reservation for where to eat with his 20 friends before prom, and he decided he wanted to go to an outdoor taco restaurant. And she was just like, everyone is going to get soaking wet. It’s going to be horrible. Blah, blah, blah. And then her daughter was just like, Mom, let them. If they want to get soaking wet eating tacos, let them.And I do think that’s helpful. I also think there’s a way in which, that is anti-diet, you know? Like, let people eat what they want to eat. Let kids eat brownies before dinner, whatever.VirginiaNot to get too personal with my buddy Mel, but you were really going to control your child’s prom experience that much? They’re 17 years old and you’re weighing in on where they need to go for dinner. It’s their problem!CorinneIt’s an anxiety thing, right? It’s like, oh my God, 20 kids are going to walk into a restaurant without a reservation. I think we all have those type of spirals where other people are doing things in a way that bothers us. And instead of getting worked up about it, I’m just going to let it go.VirginiaI mean, I fully subscribe to this. I wrote an essay maybe two years ago about working on my own control issues and then realizing control isn’t love. And yes, this resonates very deeply with me. It is something that I am a perpetual work in progress on. And I feel like I’m having a really hard time squaring this “release people, stop trying to change people, don’t control other people” with have a 12 step morning routine. She’s like, I can’t control other people, but here’s what I can control.CorinneHow does the let them theory square with giving anyone else advice really?VirginiaAlso that.CorinneSo that is something that I’ve been thinking about, just as we’ve been talking.Another thing I wanted to mention was the book definitely mentions weight loss, like she uses it as an example of if someone’s wanting to lose weight or something, but they’re not eating in that way, like, let them. Let other people’s problems be other people’s problems. But like, just noting it as this is not a person who’s necessarily versed in body liberation.VirginiaShe has clearly done no work interrogating the idea that you maybe don’t need to lose weight. She’s willing to just take that as a foregone conclusion, which is common to this kind of self help person.CorinneOne thing that I found myself grating up against was she has a few kids. She has two daughters, and I guess they have really different bodies, and she talks about her older daughter’s feelings about her younger daughter’s body. And I have no idea how old the daughter is. I think the daughter is an adult or close to being adult. But I was just like, I really don’t like this.VirginiaYeah, did you have to go there? Even if they consented, why are you telling your kid’s story and talking about your kid’s body in that way?CorinneAnd, as you said, there are episodes about, weight loss, how to boost your metabolism, eat these five things or whatever.VirginiaShe brings on “experts” for all of those episodes. But this is a former attorney. I’m just like, what is your vetting process for these guests? How are you deciding? What criteria are you using? All of that is very unclear.CorinneThen the last thing that I want to mention is that this morning, as I was getting ready to record this episode, getting ready for my day, doing my morning routine—VirginiaHigh fiving yourself.CorinneAs I was not high fiving myself in the mirror.VirginiaYou do a high 10, you do both hands.CorinneI was like, I’m going to relisten to the Glennon Doyle episode, just so I can remember some of the things that Mel Robbins was saying on that podcast episode, which I enjoyed. So I opened my podcast player, I went to my We Can Do Hard Things feed, and the episode was gone!1And I was like, this must be some phone glitch. I checked every podcast app. I texted a friend, also gone in their feed. I texted you, you also couldn’t find it. So then I start Googling, and there’s a Reddit thread about this podcast episode disappearing, and someone links to a Substack post where a person is accusing Mel Robbins of plagiarism.VirginiaOh my God!CorinneThis other person named Cassie Phillips had written a poem that basically has the words and the concept “let them” and “let me,” which is like the basis of the book. And I guess that poem went really viral in 2022 and then Mel Robbins came up with the let them theory in 2023 so very close timelines.I did read the Substack post. I feel like it’s one of those kind of like, one person says one thing, the other person says something else, situations. I don’t know if you could ever prove that Mel Robbins heard it from the poem. And in fact, Mel Robbins says that she heard it from her daughter, so I don’t know what the truth is.Then the other thing I just wanted to mention, and this is something I had been thinking about, is that idea of “let them” and not trying to control other people. Like, that’s also just not Mel Robbins’s idea. A lot of different cultures use that. I know a lot of people in Al Anon who have embraced that as a way of just being like, you can’t control other people’s drinking, that kind of thing. So just want to acknowledge that it’s not an original idea. It’s possibly plagiarized. We don’t know.VirginiaWe cannot know about the plagiarism. But those are valid questions to be raising, given the timeline. But even if that was not a contributing factor, she definitely took this very well established concept—again, like, I wrote an essay two years ago about my own work in therapy on this idea. It’s out there. And it’s not that she can’t write about it. I wrote about it! But to then turn it into the Mel Robbins’ secret method of fixing your life, which is very much how the book is marketed and how her Instagram is marketed. It’s very much like, only Mel Robbins can tell you this hard truth. That is a real neat trick. And I think speaks much more to her ability to build a brand and build an audience than it does to her actually being a wise and research-based expert on personal growth. That’s not necessarily what she is, but she is a pretty genius marketer and packager of an idea.VirginiaI’m just really struggling to square it with the rest of her messaging. It doesn’t actually feel very consistent. Like, let them I understand. It’s more about other people. But you count to five and throw yourself out of bed the second the alarm goes off. Like, what? It just doesn’t feel internally consistent to me at all.CorinneTo me it’s just like if you’re just going to let them then why are you giving people advice? Why are you trying to control how people get out of bed?VirginiaYeah, and whether they drink coffee or water first? It’s not just that she’s giving advice. She gives really specific, granular advice about how to structure your day. She wanted to control whether her son took his friends to a taco place or not on prom night. Like, she’s real interested in people doing very tiny things, especially according to her specifications. So it’s kind of feels like maybe she got really into this idea because she knows it’s her own biggest struggle, which is totally fair. But there’s a lack of introspection to then peel back a few more layers and be like, well, where am I not letting them? I’m not letting people do a lot of things.Another thing that feels slightly like a disconnect to me with the “let them” and this let people go thing is, when you look at how Mel Robbins is presenting herself, it’s a very specific aesthetic. She is definitely someone who—I mean, she talks about working out a lot, intermittent fasting, all of that. Her body is presenting as a highly controlled body. She’s very thin, she’s very blonde. That is not a natural blonde. That’s her body, her choice, of course. But again, it’s this interesting tension between this message that is very expansive and trying to give you room to take up space in your life, and then what she’s presenting to us in in her embodied self feels very different. And again, this is not a criticism, because it’s also like one of those things where, like, what other option does she have? She got famous as a CNN commentator. She’s now a big deal on Instagram. Thinness, blondeness, whiteness, all of that is required for those jobs. So it’s just interesting seeing that like someone else with this message, who is not a tiny blonde woman would probably not be able to blow it up to the level that she is.CorinneYeah. And I also think she is older. I think she’s in her 50s.VirginiaShe has got to play the game.CorinneThis is how people are going to pay attention to her.VirginiaWell, that’s Mel Robbins. We learned a lot. We now know who she is, and also quite a lot about her. I’m interested to hear from listeners who have been following her. You may have more thoughts on the whole plagiarism piece, or the missing Glennon episode piece, or just have more nuanced takes on her work. So I’m excited to hear what people think.CorinneDo we want to definitively say, Is Mel Robbins a diet?VirginiaI’m comfortable definitively saying it is. You have been on more of a journey. I don’t know if you’re ready to say it.CorinneI don’t know if I would say that Mel Robbins is a diet. I do think she’s a whole thing.VirginiaShe’s a whole thing.CorinneI think she’s like perfectionism culture maybe?VirginiaShe is high fiving herself in the mirror so hard.CorinneIs high fiving yourself in the mirror a diet?VirginiaIt’s not not a diet is where I’m going to land on that.CorinneWow. I don’t know if I agree with that, but there’s a lot to think about.VirginiaOkay, let’s do butter, because my butter is going to possibly undermine my credibility for this entire episode.CorinneIs your butter drinking a cup of water before you drink coffee?VirginiaI am not doing that, but my butter is my new hydration tracking app that I’m using!CorinneAre you freaking kidding me?VirginiaI knew I was going to... I knew this was going to..CorinneA hydration tracking app.VirginiaIt’s called Water llama. It’s adorable. Every day there’s a different animal. Today I’m tracking on this little bunny. And then it shows how much of how the water fills up on the little illustration. So I’ve drunk 2/3 of a bunny according to my goal. I am not doing this as a diet. This is not a weight loss goal. It has nothing to do with that.I have so many migraines. My migraines have been getting worse in the last couple months. I was looking back at how often they are happening. They’ve really increased. I live in a frozen tundra. My house is so dry. I’m waking up every morning with headaches and sore throats. I have a humidifier. But I realized I really think I need to work on hydration. I’m also going to get a work up with my neurologist, but the appointment is three months out. So I was like, this is something I can work on in the meantime and see if it makes a difference.And I have tried to just be mindful about water consumption in the past, but I will forget all about it. I hyper focus on work all day long and drink nothing, and then it’s eight o’clock and I’m very thirsty. So I was like, alright, I’m going to do this water tracking app. And I’m a week into it, and I’ve drunk so much water in the last week.CorinneDoes it give you reminders?VirginiaYou can set it to remind you every one or two hours, if you want. So it nudges you. I haven’t even really needed the reminders, because so far I’m just excited to fill in my little numbers.I will say I put in a custom goal that I made up. I’m not going to say what my goal is, because I think it’s somewhat absurd honestly. I’m really just trying to drink as much as possible until I don’t wake up with a headache, and then use that number as the target and see if it helps.I deliberately put in a custom goal, because otherwise they calculate it based on your weight. So if you don’t want to mess around with that, you can just put in your own goal.There is a weight loss challenge thing you could do, but there is an option to hide that, and I did that right away, so I don’t have to look at any weight loss content.So you know it’s with a caveat. Like, tracking is not for everybody. Tracking is usually not for me. If this doesn’t feel good for you, please don’t do it. But if you are thirsty and need to drink more water, I’m liking it.CorinneCool.VirginiaDo you feel like I’m such a hypocrite right now?CorinneUm, I don’t know if I would say hypocrite? The tracking thing is interesting. Like when tracking is triggering versus when it’s not.VirginiaI think because I have a very specific metric, which is no headaches. Like, I’m doing this for a very niche reason. It feels okay and that’s what I can come up with.But I’m also paying attention to it, and if it starts becoming stressful, I’m putting some parameters around it where I’m like, okay, then we delete the app. But water llama, it’s pretty cute.CorinneWell, I hope water llama helps your migraines.VirginiaTBD. What about you?CorinneI want to recommend a book that I just read. It’s called The Safekeep. I don’t want to say too much about it, because I went into it knowing almost nothing and was shocked at various points.VirginiaBy Yael van der Wouden.CorinneYes, I think she’s Dutch. What will I say about it?VirginiaI can read the summary line, which is “an exhilarating, twisted tale of desire, suspicion and obsession between two women staying in the same house in the Dutch countryside during the summer of 1961.”CorinneThat seems like a good summary.VirginiaI mean, I want to read it. That sounds really good.CorinneIt takes a few different turns and I think has a surprising ending that seems like it wouldn’t work, and it kind of did work for me. And I would say, like, I also just did not expect it to be as spicy as it was!So, I recommend The Safekeep and I would say, don’t read too much about it before you read it!VirginiaJust dive in. That’s a great butterWell, should we high five on Zoom to wrap up this episode? Because our buddy Mel would want us to?CorinneI need some science behind why high five.VirigniaYou can read her whole book called The High Five Habit and just start high fiving everybody all the time.CorinneNo.

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.Today, we’re going to revisit our conversation about Emily Oster, and her evolving views on kids, weight and health.This episode first aired in November 2024, right after the presidential election. We’re now 8 months into Trump’s second term, and continuing to grapple with how America has slid to the right. So the story of a public health advocate and scholar who is now aligned with conservative media feels incredibly timely—especially because many of you are starting back at school this month, and Emily’s take on school lunches is particularly complex. That said, we also want to hold space for how much Emily’s work has meant to so many of us (including Virginia!).This is a complicated conversation. To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you’ll need to join Extra Butter, our premium subscription tier: http://patreon.com/virginiasolesmithExtra Butter costs just $99 per year. (Regular paid subscribers, the remaining value of your subscription will be deducted from that total!)In these monthly episodes we get into the GOOD stuff like:Dating While FatWhat to do when you miss your smaller bodyIs Kids Eat In Color anti-diet?And did Virginia really get divorced over butter?Extra Butters also get exclusive weekly chats, DM access, and a monthly bonus essay or thread. And Extra Butter ensures that the Burnt Toast community can always stay an ad- and sponsor-free space—which is crucial for body liberation journalism. Join us here!(Questions? Glitches? Email me all the details, and cc support@substack.com.)PS. If Extra Butter isn’t the right tier for you, remember that you still get access behind almost every other paywall with a regular paid subscription.Episode 206 TranscriptVirginiaI’m just going to say up front, I am nervous about doing this episode. It is a complicated one. People have very strong feelings about Emily Oster. But we are in our Extra Butter safe space, and I am trusting that.So Corinne. You are coming in somewhat cold to this topic, because you don’t have kids, and Emily is primarily a parenting expert. What do you know about Emily Oster and her work?CorinneI know two things about Emily Oster. One is that she wrote a book about parenting or maybe pregnancy? And my main takeaway about that book is that it’s okay for you to drink a small amount of alcohol when you are pregnant. VirginiaYes. This is a gift that Emily has given to the world. Unquestionably.CorinneAnd I basically just know about that from having friends who are pregnant. Then the other thing I know is that she was involved in some COVID controversies. VirginiaUh huh. CorinneThe book came out before COVID, and then during COVID she started to become a controversial figure.VirginiaShe actually had two books come out before COVID, Expecting Better, about pregnancy, and then Crib Sheet, which is a parenting book. Expecting Better actually came out in 2013, the same year my first child was born. So it’s 11 years old. She’s been around for a long time!CorinneDid you use those books as a pregnant and child-having person?VirginiaWell, Expecting Better was published on August 20, 2013 and Violet was born on August 18. So I did not use it for that pregnancy. But I did later read a lot of Emily’s work, and in particular the work she was doing around breastfeeding not being the most essential you-have-to-do-it-or-you’re-a-terrible-mother thing. She did a lot of really great research breaking down some of those myths and showing that the benefits of breastfeeding over formula are not as extreme as we’ve been told. All of that was super helpful to me during my own breastfeeding situations. So yes, she’s definitely been a parenting voice on my radar for a long time. Emily is also actually from New Haven, Connecticut, as am I. We are around the same age, but I don’t think we knew each other as kids. But we are both ladies from Connecticut. Emily has a PhD in economics from Harvard. She then went on to pursue research in health economics and is a professor of economics at Brown University. She is a mother of two, and her official bio says, “Emily was inspired by her own pregnancy and lack of clear information to guide her decisions. She decided to use her expertise in reviewing and analyzing data to help other parents navigate those topics. She’s a New York Times best-selling author.”So we are both 40-something moms, originally from Connecticut. I think the other place our work has overlapped is that we both do some of this work of, “here is this mainstream thing you’ve been told that’s actually quite punitive towards mothers, and what if we looked at the data and flipped some of that on its head.” The work she did on pregnancy and breastfeeding was super helpful to me. It’s been super helpful to so many of my friends. My younger sister just had her first baby this summer, and she was reading Expecting Better. So I just want to go into this conversation saying I really think all of that work is valuable. Then more recently, as you noted, Emily launched ParentData, which started as a Substack newsletter that she sent out during COVID. Now it is its own standalone website. And during COVID she started sending out these newsletters that I think a lot of us, as parents, were living and dying by, because she was helping us calculate the risks. And then she started to push for schools to reopen before a lot of people were ready for schools to reopen. There was a lot of controversy around her takes at that point and how she was calculating risks. And in particular, I think, how she was calculating risks for kids from more marginalized backgrounds. It often started to sound more like she was just thinking about, “I want my kids back in school.” It was messy. I’m not going to talk a lot about her COVID stuff today, because we have a whole other issue to work through. But I do want to acknowledge that COVID is when a lot of folks started to feel very divisive about Emily. I also want to acknowledge right off the top that Emily blurbed Fat Talk and was a big supporter of Fat Talk and of my work. She’s interviewed me on ParentData twice, once before Fat Talk came out, once after. A lot of the early Burnt Toast community came from Emily’s community. So this is all the more reason why we should have this conversation. There are a lot of Emily Oster fans in our community. There are a lot of Emily Oster critics. We’re gonna talk about all of it. CorinneI feel like we should say the reason that people have been asking us to do this episode is because she has recently joined forces with conservative journalist Bari Weiss and they are doing a podcast together. And there was an episode about childhood obesity? Feeding kids? Which a bunch of people have written to you, with questions about. VirginiaThe new podcast is called Raising Parents with Emily Oster. It is produced in partnership with The Free Press, which is Bari Weiss’s publishing empire.Do you want to talk to us a little bit about what The Free Press is, and that whole piece of things before we talk about this episode?CorinneSure, yes. The Free Press is a website started by Bari Weiss. Bari Weiss is a journalist. She was hired by The New York Times after Trump was elected in 2016, in an effort to platform conservative voices at The New York Times. VirginiaThey were trying to both sides it.CorinneYes. And she notoriously quit with a manifesto-y letter, claiming that she was bullied or not really taken seriously. And then I think after that, she started this website, The Free Press. She’s someone who started out as somewhat moderate, and has become more of a conservative person. She’s very “anti woke,” I guess is what I would say. She’s very pro-free speech and anti-identity politics, that kind of thing.VirginiaYeah. I think Emily’s involvement with The Free Press is surprising and not surprising. I think what’s interesting about Emily Oster, kind of all the way along, is that she’s an incredibly smart person. I think her work really connects with a certain kind of smart, data conscious parent or person—especially moms. And I think she would say her personal values or political beliefs should not be in the mix at all, that what she’s doing is not political. And yet, of course, it is political. Health is political. If you’re going to talk about COVID, if you’re going to talk about breastfeeding, if you’re going to talk about—as we’re going to talk about—kids’ weight, it’s going to get political very quickly. It’s been interesting to watch this evolution. I think this sort of smart, data driven mom—which I certainly identify as. A lot of those types of moms who would identify as feminist were like, “yes, let me drink during pregnancy.” “Yes, tell me I don’t have to breastfeed.” That felt really resonant to us. And then there was this move in this other direction that’s been subtle, and sort of confusing at times. But I think aligning yourself with The Free Press is not subtle or confusing. So yes, we’ve got the new podcast, “Raising Parents with Emily Oster.” And episode three of the new season is called, Are We Feeding Kids The Wrong Foods? And this is the episode that a ton of you have been in my DMs and my email being like, what is happening here? So Corinne, do you want to read this quote from the top of the episode? This is from Emily, and it lays out the premise that she took into this projectCorinneYes.While BMI is just a number and doesn’t magically determine health, it is the case that BMI in this higher range is associated with a substantially elevated risk of many metabolic or other chronic illnesses. The United States ranks 12th worldwide on obesity prevalence. The question is, why? And why haven’t we been able to reduce childhood obesity rates?VirginiaSo what’s your thought about just that quick summary?CorinneIt seems like she’s both saying that BMI is a bad marker of health, and using it to determine that there is a problem.VirginiaShe’s saying the question is, “why do we have high rates of obesity in the United States?” She’s not saying, why should we care? Is that even the question? Is that even the problem? CorinneShe’s saying BMI is just a number. And also, let’s use that number to say that we have a problem. VirginiaThere’s some both/and-ing here that’s uncomfortable to me. And, a refusal to question the basic premise. If we have elevated risks and metabolic and other chronic illnesses, why are we not talking about those illnesses? Why are we focusing the conversation squarely on BMI, which we just acknowledged is not a useful measurement? So that’s the starting point for the whole episode.I’m not going spend a lot of time explaining why BMI is a bad measurement. I’m assuming a lot of us have that working knowledge, but we can link in the transcript to some background if you are new and are like, but wait a second, I thought BMI was great, and what is the problem? I will also link to a really great analysis that Christy Harrison wrote about this episode that we’re going to refer to a few times during this conversation. Because she did dig more into what is really just bad, lazy science that Emily is doing here. So I have a little snippet if you want to read. This is Christy Harrison, MPH, RD now talking about what has kind of gone wrong at face value here:CorinneIn her previous work, Oster has always harped on how correlation, aka Association, is not causation, and how there are many other confounding variables that can explain these sorts of relationships. Yet in this episode, she takes at face value that the link between BMI and the risk of some diseases automatically means higher weight is unhealthy. In fact, there are many confounding variables to challenge and complicate that narrative.VirginiaAnd then Christy links to a whole bunch of other resources that we can include as well. Why Is Emily Oster Suddenly Pro–Diet Culture?So right off the bat, I was just struck by, Wait a second, Emily. My understanding of your work is that you are data driven. You analyze this so carefully, and yet, these basic tenets of good data analysis—correlation, not causation, and understanding the confounding variables—you are suddenly willing to throw out the window in order to do a whole episode about how do we get kids’ BMIs down. And then immediately after setting up the problem, she’s like, “We’ve tried all these things, to fight childhood obesity, and none of them have worked.” And she specifically starts to talk about, Let’s Move, which was Michelle Obama’s big initiative in 2008 where she danced with Big Bird and overhauled school lunches and was really focused on, we are going to get the childhood obesity rate down by 5 percent. And instead, that did not happen. Child obesity rates went up. So, you know, by its own metrics, Let’s Move was a pretty big failure. Then Emily also talks about Cookie Monster, who was part of the whole Michelle Obama stuff. There’s a famous Cookie Monster bit where he’s debating whether to eat cookies or broccoli. Then she says, “Cookies are very tempting. At the core of concerns about children’s weight is the fact that kids are eating an inordinate amount of unhealthy food.”CorinneYikes. VirginiaI’m just already frustrated because we’re leapfrogging wildly. To be fair, the title of the episode is, “Are we feeding kids the wrong foods?” She wanted to do an episode about food. But then why do we need to frame it in weight?CorinneSo her rise to popularity was for questioning these correlations we have between babies’ health and breastfeeding, or pregnancy and alcohol, but now that it’s about weight…she’s just buying into it. VirginiaIt’s a really strange pivot. The next chunk of the episode is where Emily starts getting upset about food advertising and talking about how much advertising kids get, which, like, I don’t disagree. Food advertising to children is shady. She quotes a mom from Ohio who talks about her kids getting influenced by Mr. Beast to want to drink some sugary energy drink. But then she also starts to blame parents, and in particular, she talks about how the average parent now only cooks four meals per week, as if this is like a major fail.CorinneYikes. I mean, who has time? I might only cook four meals a week.VirginiaI mean, that’s actually a lot of meals. Like, that’s most weeknights. You figure Friday and Saturday you might do something more fun and you probably need a break some other night. Why I Hate Cooking Right NowCorinneEspecially if you’re working 40 hours a week or more than that. VirginiaOr work a job that has you out of the house at dinner time.There are a million reasons why the average parent only cooks four meals a week. What I’m also noticing is this subtle, parent-blaming thread starting to come through. Which, again, feels so at odds with her earlier work, which was so grounded in the data. You can make your own choices about whether to drink. You can make your own choices about breastfeeding. Let’s give people the information and let them make their own choices. This is not that.CorinneIt also seems like even if you were kind of following her logic up until this point, you could reach a different conclusion. Even if you’re saying, okay, yes, certain chronic diseases are on the rise, maybe part of the problem is the food system. Then leaping to blame parents for not cooking enough is just… tough. VirginiaWell, and it’s a very conservative approach, right? To use that angle, as opposed to looking at what are the larger systemic reasons. If we really need all American parents to be cooking dinner, what support do American parents need to be cooking dinner? You need to let people go home from their jobs at four o’clock. There needs to be an entire culture or shift that we have not made, and have made no steps towards. CorinneYeah, I’m thinking the problem might be capitalism, white supremacy culture, perfectionism. Lack of community care and involvement in raising children. VirginiaYes, yes, yes. Who’s watching your kids while you’re cooking dinner? So many reasons why. Like, relying on American parents—and let’s be honest, we’re saying American mothers to cook dinner, to fight the childhood obesity epidemic? This cannot be the answer, guys. This is some Michael Pollan retrograde bullshit that I can’t believe I’m still having to talk about. CorinneAnd that’s not even the end.VirginiaOh we are nowhere near the end. So the episode then pivots into a weird clip which is not credited, and I could not tell who it was, but it was some body positive influencer talking about the evils of diet culture. It’s a little sound bite she throws in and then Emily responds to the sound bite. So, Corinne, can you read this next block?CorinneThere is today less stigma about weight, which is good. It’s really good. When I was growing up, I remember how cruel people were to overweight kids, and I know from being a mom that that kind of bullying still sometimes happens. What I think has changed is that such behavior is now considered wrong and despicable, and there is a growing stigma against people who bully in that way, rather than towards the overweight person. But the other thing that’s happened, perhaps inadvertently, is that people, including health experts, have stopped speaking out loud about the real health risks of obesity.VirginiaCorinne, how do you feel about that the weight stigma is gone now?CorinneI mean. Said like a true thin person. Like, how the heck would she know?VirginiaWell, she just knows. As a mother, she knows? CorinneI really haven’t heard about anyone being stigmatized for bullying fat people. VirginiaNo, that is new to me.CorinneIs there any evidence to back this up? Or is this just pure Emily Oster speculation?VirginiaJust her musings, I think. I do think that, much like you were saying about the whole Bari Weiss, anti-woke culture, there is a certain group that complains, like, “you can’t even make fat jokes anymore.” In kind of the same vein as, “men can’t even harass their secretaries anymore!” I think it is hard that now we have standards for not being an asshole to people. But I actually don’t think that standard is that rigorous around weight. In a lot of social settings, fat jokes are still pretty accepted. I don’t think that we have made this much progress!CorinneThis kind of reminds me of the whole #MeToo thing and how people were like, “But Louis CK’s career is ruined!”  VirginiaHow will these white frat boys get to a good law firm after Stanford?CorinneObviously this is speculation on my part, but is she saying this because…you wrote a book? VirginiaI fixed it. Did you not know that? Did you not know that my book fixed it? CorinneIs this your fault actually??VirginiaYou’re welcome.CorinneYou wrote a book about fat stigma, and it stopped existing, and so this is your fault.VirginiaI erased it, so now you can go back to being mean about fatness, because we have to make everyone thin. That was actually the master plan all along. I mean, this was a real heartbreak moment for me, because again, Emily has been personally lovely about my work and supportive of it in many ways in the past.But I think that a lot of folks who work on “obesity prevention” have started to really grasp that it is important that they name the existence of weight stigma or anti-fatness. Anytime I interview someone who does mainstream obesity research now, they are fully willing to acknowledge that that is a terrible thing. Whereas five years ago, 10 years ago, when I was reporting on these issues, they were not willing to acknowledge stigma was real. They were framing weight as a personal responsibility problem. And now the party line is absolutely, weight is not a matter of personal responsibility. It’s biology—and that’s why we made these drugs. So we can fix it for you. That’s where they’ve gone. But that is not the same as saying that there is no stigma.Their rhetoric against weight stigma is being used to sell more weight loss, which perpetuates the stigma. CorinneYeah. I mean, it’s obvious to me that weight stigma still exists.VirginiaBecause you fly on airplanes and buy clothes and move through the world.CorinneBecause I live in the world. Is there a way to measure weight stigma? VirginiaWell, actually, yes. We can link to the interview I did with Jeff Hunger. Jeff Hunger is a weight stigma researcher who I think would be quite surprised to hear that weight stigma no longer exists. Can We Conquer Anti-Fat Bias?CorinneYeah, I recall him saying in that episode that there was a lot of proof that becoming aware of stigma and doing implicit bias training didn’t actually get rid of stigma.VirginiaYes. They don’t really know yet what works to reduce the stigma from a data perspective, because the traditional things have not been working. Because the stigma has not been going down. Then there is a study that came out of Harvard in 2019 which found that while some forms of bias are decreasing—like we are making some progress towards less homophobia, less anti-Black racism, there’s some shift towards neutrality there, not to say those biases aren’t still huge problems because they absolutely are. [Post-recording note: Again, this was recorded before the election!] But we were seeing tiny drops. We are not seeing that drop when it comes to anti-fat bias, and that was the bias in the study that was actually increasing the most. CorinneOh.VirginiaOkay, so it’s going to get even worse. Well, I don’t know if worse is the right word? But it’s definitely going to get really weird and super, super retrograde. Something I kept thinking throughout this whole episode was: Did you make this podcast in 2009 because so much of the conversation just feels like, how are we still having this conversation? The thing that happens next is Emily brings on Sam Kass, who is the Obama’s former private chef. He made them dinner every night when they were in the White House. And he also partnered with Michelle Obama on Let’s Move. He was kind of like her chef consultant. So I want to be clear that Sam Kass is not a nutritionist. He is not a public health researcher. He is not a doctor. He is a private chef who has a lot of opinions about food. He’s also now on the board of Plezi Nutrition, which is Michelle Obama’s fruit juice brand, which I wrote about last year.Michelle Obama Is Not Coming To Save UsI don’t consider him a thought leader on the question of our children’s health, because he has no medical or scientific qualifications to be a thought leader on children’s health. But Emily brings him on the podcast and he starts to explain to Emily that his plan was to get into the White House, and the big thing that he and Michelle originally wanted to do was to get rid of the crop subsidies for corn and sugar that have made the American diet so unhealthy. Which, I don’t know how much you followed that story, especially back in the mid 2000s.CorinneI remember that being a big Michael Pollan thing. VirginiaTotally, totally. And I think that there’s a lot of logic towards changing the way the crop subsidy situation works, and not giving industry so much incentive to grow so much corn.However, the Obamas were not able to achieve that in Washington. They made zero progress on crop subsidies. And so, as Sam Kass explains to Emily, that actually wasn’t ever the solution. That wasn’t the right thing that they should have done in the first place. So, why don’t you read the Sam Kass quote here?CorinneI came running into the White House ready to go, like we’re empowered now we can fix this. It’s not the subsidies that are producing our food environment, it’s our culture. And it’s our culture that has been influenced and shaped by the industry who has pumped billions, probably trillions of dollars, over the last 40 to 50 years to shape our attitudes, norms and behaviors, but fundamentally, our culture is supporting what we choose. I think we have a culture that has separated the connection between what we put in our bodies and the impact it has on our health.VirginiaSo again, this is another way of saying, “it’s our fault.”But what is culture? That is a vague entity.CorinneIt kind of feels like they were like, “Actually, you know what? It’s too hard to fight back against the billions of dollars that the industry is using to lobby our government, and instead we’re going to blame individual personal behavior.”VirginiaWhich, again, is a weird conservative pivot. And there are lots of food activists and child health activists who have been critical of Let’s Move because of this, because they didn’t get this done. And clearly he has decided that it didn’t matter that they didn’t get it done, because if American moms would just fucking cook dinner, then we wouldn’t have this problem. Okay, so that was a lot. But then Emily brings on Pamela Druckerman. So Corinne, do you know who Pamela Druckerman is?CorinneI do not.VirginiaOkay. Pamela Druckerman, is best known for writing a book called Bringing Up Bebe. She is a journalist who lives in France and writes about French culture. Bringing Up Bebe —which came out in 2011 so it’s almost 15 years old— is a book all about how the way French children are brought up leads them to be gourmet eaters and the way American kids are brought up leads them to be terrible eaters.My main memory of her—the book came out before I was a parent, but I remember her appearing on The Today Show wearing a beret. And again, she’s American. But she was living in France and deciding to write about how amazing French children are and how amazing the whole French parenting system is. So it is a book about how to parent like a French person, and how to feed your child like a French person.CorinneYou know what else I hear is really amazing about France?VirginiaWhat’s that?CorinneThe healthcare and postpartum care and stuff. I’m sure that’s just a coincidence.VirginiaThe government-funded free preschool is probably also a pretty amazing thing. But Pamela Druckerman says no, specifically it’s the way French kids eat. Because, according to her, French kids from the age of like three are capable of sitting through a multi course dinner. They are capable of having dinner later at night. This is somehow super important, I guess, because it makes you cooler if you don’t eat dinner at 5pm? They can behave in restaurants. They don’t need to bring iPads into restaurants. They don’t eat Goldfish. They don’t need sippy cups, they are eating like tiny gourmet adults at all times.CorinneThis also reminds me of the French Women Don’t Get Fat thing. VirginiaCorrect, correct. CorinneIt’s also just like, what? So the solution is just we all moved to France? Or…?VirginiaYes, yes, that is one solution on the table.CorinneOr we get government-funded childcare? VirginiaThat would probably do so much more. That never gets suggested in this episode. Emily never suggests that the government should fund child care. But she does talk to Pamela for a long time about how the French people get their kids to like food.Pamela explains that you can make kids like vegetables, if you just tell them they are delicious and serve them sitting down at a table.So that’s some really useful advice for all of us. CorinneYeah, it notoriously works great to just tell someone they like something they don’t.Virginia“Carrots are delicious!” I can just imagine my children staring at me in absolute disgust. So Emily responds to Pamela talking about the carrot thing by saying, “I can hear all the American parents now, but what about my picky eater? In their defense, there’s pretty clear data that between the ages of two and six, children get pickier, but France has a fix for that!”And then Pamela explains what the fix is. This is a really long quote, but do you want to read this?CorinnePartly, what happens in France is that kids don’t eat between meals. So when they come to the table, they’re hungry. You kind of learn from an early age to tolerate not starvation level hungriness, but like having a slight pit in your stomach where you want to eat, and that pit has not been satisfied. So you get to the table and you’re more apt to eat what’s put in front of you because you’re hungry for it. You haven’t been snacking. You know, your mom didn’t give you a banana 20 minutes ago, because you were whining, she said, We’re going to eat in 20 minutes. Go play and come back, and then the first thing that’s served in this moment in the meal is a vegetable. It’s not rocket science, any of this.VirginiaI want Pamela to come to my house and talk to my children 20 minutes before dinner. I just am so annoyed about this! I don’t know. Tell me what you’re thinking.CorinneIt just sounds like if your kids are hungry enough, they’ll eat vegetables.VirginiaYes, and that they should be accustomed to walking around with a pit in their stomach all the time because you don’t let them have snacks.CorinneHungry children are annoying. VirginiaThey are!  CorinneI mean, even just speaking for myself, I am not the nicest, funnest, smartest person when I’m hungry.VirginiaNope, nope. I find this really insidious, this idea that we should teach kids to tolerate hunger is a really creepy notion to me. because I think any girl who came of age in the 90s has a lot of experience with learning to, quote, tolerate hunger. And it didn’t work out great for us. This is not the goal. This is a dieting behavior. CorinneIsn’t the whole thing that when you feel really hungry, that often backfires and ends up with like bingeing or overeating?VirginiaIt just seems like you’re teaching kids to live with this experience of deprivation, which some kids bodies might do totally fine with, right? People get hungry at different rates. There are people who can eat only three times a day, and that works really well for them, and that’s awesome. But that doesn’t mean that’s going to work really well for everybody. And little kids in particular have small stomachs that empty fast. They don’t want to go six hours without eating. That is going to be meltdown city.CorinneIt’s also like, when does this start? Because I don’t think anyone’s telling breastfeeding mothers, “Wait until your baby is starving and has a pit in their stomach to feed them.” You know?VirginiaI think as soon as they’re off, breast milk is when it starts. Because she talks about being at the playground at 10am with the toddlers, and nobody’s carrying around little bags of Cheerios because the kids don’t expect to have snacks at the playground. Because they know they’re going to wait till they go home and eat lunch. I drive around in my Subaru at all times with a box in the back of my car filled with snacks. And we don’t always need them. It’s fine. But I don’t want to get caught somewhere with a hungry, grumpy child. If I’m sitting in the waiting room at the doctor’s office and it’s taking 40 minutes when I thought it was going to take 15, I’m really glad to have that bag of Goldfish. She’s equating snacking with sloth and excess when it’s just like parenting your child, responding to their needs, recognizing that they are getting hungry, and maybe you are too, and everyone will feel better with a snack.CorinneYeah, it feels like a confusing solution.VirginiaAnd again, just not very replicable. She describes the way the French schools serve lunch and how it’s this very elaborate presentation, and they get three year olds to sit around a table and use silverware. Nobody is trying that in the United States. Even if there are lessons we can learn from that, nobody is attempting to replicate that here. So any individual parent trying to replicate that at home is just making their lives really complicated.CorinneThis is where we get into the systemic versus personal stuff again, too. Maybe it works in France because they have a totally different system. Maybe parents have more energy to tolerate kids screaming when they’re hungry because they’re not working 60 hours a week. Maybe kids are less hungry when they get home from school because they have a nice five course meal at school. You can’t take one part of the system and and bring it over here and just blame parents for not doing enough. VirginiaExactly.So then Emily decides she needs to find an American mother who is doing this so we can all learn from her. She brings in a woman named Ellie, who I think we would affectionately call an almond mom. Ellie never lets her kids buy the school lunch. She cooks from scratch at home. They are a vegetarian household. She doesn’t shop the middle of the grocery store. She only shops the perimeter, and she doesn’t let her kids have fast food or really, any processed food. Do you want to read this quote? CorinneWait, I need more information. Is Ellie, like a friend of Emily’s? Who the f is Ellie?VirginiaNo. She’s just a mom. Sprinkled throughout this episode, she just brings in regular moms to share their stories of feeding their kids. Her producers probably cast around to find people.CorinneUm, does she also share Ellie’s income?VirginiaShe does not.  CorinneOkay. Anyways, Ellie says about her children. They say, can we have Cheetos and mac and cheese? And we’re like, there’s nothing in that that nourishes you. Every single element of that meal is chemicals. So we might look at the box or something and talk about the difference between the way chemicals make things taste good and just the taste of food.VirginiaSo to be clear, this quote is presented with zero context or follow up, even though it contains wildly inaccurate statements. First of all, all food is chemicals, water is a chemical, air is a chemical. Christy Harrison broke this down really clearly about why Emily should have called out the chemical thing as just being blatantly wrong. You cannot say that mac and cheese contains more chemicals than homemade pasta. They are all foods. So Emily is bringing in this woman’s story and holding her up as an example, even though the woman’s position is “no processed foods, no matter what.” But Emily has already written about the fact that the processed foods debate is overblown and the health risks have not been proven by the data.CorinneYeah, it’s also like, what is the proof that this parent is doing something better? That her kids aren’t fat?VirginiaYeah, that’s a great point. We never hear actually any details about her kids. But I’m going to go out on a limb and guess they aren’t fat just because I don’t think Emily would have brought in the mom of a fat kid and held her up as an example.CorinneBut also, just because the kids aren’t fat now doesn’t mean that they won’t be fat someday.VirginiaIt also doesn’t mean they’re not freaking losing their minds and eating all the Cheetos when they go to their friend’s house.CorinneYeah, they go to your house and eat nine Oreos. VirginiaYou don’t let them buy school lunch and you control the food in your house, but your kids are growing up and going out into the world where all of this food is—and you have been telling them that it’s poison and they shouldn’t want it, and yet they know it tastes good.And Emily really celebrates that this mom says, “we have a dialogue about it. And we always explain why something is bad and they can’t have it.” And that is held up as if, that’s good communication between the parent and child. But it reminds me a lot more of the protein mom weighing her food and explaining to her daughter why she’s weighing her food. Just because you’re giving your child a lot of information about your food decisions does not mean you are teaching them to have a healthy relationship with food. Protein Moms and the "Eating Enough" MythThe other reason I know Ellie’s kids are not fat is then because Emily does want to hear from the mom of a kid in a bigger body. So she brings on Karen, and Karen has a six year old in a bigger body who she’s really worried about in terms of feeding her child. And Karen’s story in this episode really breaks my heart, because she’s the only person in this whole episode who has directly experienced any anti-fat bias. She talks about having experienced herself growing up, and then how it’s kind of doubled since she had a child who’s in a bigger body. She’s constantly made to feel like she’s doing something wrong, that it’s a moral failing that her daughter is in a bigger body. She also talks a lot about her guilt that she had to formula feed her daughter as a baby, and how she was constantly wondering if she was overfeeding her or if formula is the reason why she’s bigger.She says the constant thought in the back of her mind was, “Are you giving your baby too much food?”CorinneOh, that’s so sad.VirginiaIt’s so sad. I’ve heard that story a lot, that that is the message, especially parents of bigger babies get around formula. And it’s just, I mean, to your point earlier, no one would say to a breastfeeding mom, are you feeding them too much? Like it’s such hypocrisy.This clip, I think, was Emily’s attempt to throw a bone towards the importance of combating anti-fatness, because Karen does sound like she’s really trying to push back against that pressure. She wants to raise her daughter to feel good about her body. She tells a story of a kid at a birthday party called her daughter fat, and her daughter was just like, we don’t talk about people’s bodies. And good for that kid, for handling that so well. So she sounds conflicted, but like she’s trying to not raise her daughter to feel ashamed about all of this. But then Emily just kind of drops that story and gives no support for that perspective. And she makes this really odd speech. So another long one for you to read, Corinne.CorinneKaren’s experience with her daughter brings up the bigger question, how much of obesity and overweight is in our control and how much is just biological? Shaming people for being overweight is unequivocally wrong, but sometimes, especially in recent years, the goal of trying not to offend people has led to a shift in the conversation and a lot of confusion about the very real effects of obesity on health.You might hear it’s possible to be healthy at Every Size. While yes, it’s absolutely possible to be healthy at a range of weights and sizes. And no, not everyone needs to be a size two to be healthy. And in fact, for some people, a size two would mean they are not healthy. But it’s also true that, on average, many diseases and health complications and health outcomes are more likely for people who are obese.VirginiaSo again, it’s like, “Don’t shame people. Shaming people is so bad. Also, people are so unhealthy if they’re fat.”CorinneShe’s saying people have become scared to say that the problem is being fat or something. VirginiaYes, yes. They’re being silenced. And again, I think every fat person who’s been to the doctor really feels like that message isn’t getting out to us.CorinneRight? And again, the correlation versus causation thing, she’s implying that all of these diseases, health complications, and health outcomes are the cause of obesity, when we really don’t know that.VirginiaJust to break down correlation causation further: When we say these diseases are more likely for people with high BMI, we don’t know that the high BMI is what causes the increased risk for thes diseases. We know that these two things happen together in some cases, but we don’t understand the relationship. So it could be that the diseases cause the weight increase. It could be that the weight increase sometimes causes the diseases. It could be that they are two unrelated things, but they have a shared root cause.And in every one of those scenarios, the concern should be the disease, not the body size. What can you do for the disease? And if that changes body size, fine. But if it doesn’t change body size, that doesn’t mean you’ve failed if you can make improvements on the disease.I feel like I have been making a version of that speech for 10 years now, and yet this episode is still out there, so that’s fine. I’m tired. CorinneIt just sucks because it felt like Emily Oster was someone who could wrap her head around that.VirginiaI did think that.But part of why I think she is not wrapping her head around that anymore—at least in this episode,—is because she then brings in another expert, this guy, Robert Davis, PhD, who is the author of The Healthy Skeptic. He is a health journalist with a public health PhD, but again, he’s not a doctor or a researcher. He writes mainstream, commercial books. But if you didn’t understand his background, you would interpret him in this episode as being the voice of medicine and science. He is brought in as a very credentialed expert who we are going to take seriously as having the final word on this topic. And this is what Robert Davis has to say about Health at Every Size:CorinneThe pendulum has swung too far when it comes to the idea of body positivity and HAES. The effort to fight those ideas from diet culture is a good thing. But if we then say, well, let’s just forget about promoting weight loss or promoting a healthy weight and let’s just say people should be able to sort of eat what they feel like and eat dessert at dinner and go with intuitive eating and what they feel like eating. I think that’s a big mistake, because, again, we know that these foods that we’re talking about are designed to trick our brains and make us want more of them.VirginiaSo, it’s great to fight back against diet culture, but don’t go so far as to eat dessert at dinner. That’s a bridge too far for Robert Davis.CorinneFighting diet culture is good, but we shouldn’t go far as to say that weight loss isn’t good.VirginiaIt’s unclear what he wants to fight from diet culture, because he really wants to keep quite a lot of diet culture. And I should also say Robert Davis just published an article on The Free Press, with the headline, “Diets are Bad. Ignoring Childhood Obesity is Even Worse.” The subhead is “Activists tell parents not to fat shame an overweight child, or make them go on a diet, but parents who refuse to tackle the issue are putting their kids’ lives at risk.”And by activists, he means me, because he calls me out in the article as a “prominent ‘fat activist,’” who he thinks is getting everything wrong about this. So obviously, Robert and I are not going to, like, go to dinner and hang. CorinneEven if we agreed that child obesity was a problem, there’s still not a solution. Dieting or putting your kid on a diet isn’t going to solve it. So it’s just very confusing to be like, “parents aren’t fighting back against this thing.”What does Robert want us to do? VirginiaI’m glad you asked. Let’s go to his article, because he does have a lot of a lot of specific ideas that I will try to read with a straight face. So he says: “Avoid restrictive diets. They don’t work and they can make the problem even worse. Instead, children should be encouraged to eat mainly whole foods, including colorful fruits, veggies, beets, beans, nuts, seeds, fish, lean poultry and whole grains.”Children, famously fans of seeds.CorinneAnd fish. VirginiaThat’s an easy sell. Virginia“Involving kids in grocery shopping and cooking their own food gives them a sense of agency and will get them excited about eating well and using cookie cutters to slice fruits and vegetables into fun shapes like hearts and stars, where serving veggies with dips can make these foods more enticing.”CorinneThis is really reminding me of Kids Eat In Color.The Ballerina Farm of Kid Food InstagramVirginiaYes, yes, it is. CorinneAnd once again, I feel like the problem is capitalism. Like, sure, I will cut celery into stars if I don’t have to have a job.VirginiaI cannot listen to a white man tell women to cut their kids fucking vegetables into hearts and stars. I cannot do it.I am incandescent with rage about this. I am sorry.  Mothers have enough to do. We do not need your guilt trip. I do not need to hear that I need to stop using Instacart and take my kids to the grocery store, an experience that will make all of us cranky and tired.CorinneDo we think that Robert J. Davis has children? VirginiaHe probably does? But does he have a wife who does all of this? Also probably yes.This advice is so simplistic. It is so ignorant of the context of family’s lives.If you have a kid who is picky, I mean, genuinely picky and rigid around food choices.If you have a neurodivergent kid who’s reliant on a lot of processed foods as the safe foods.If you are on a tight budget.There are one thousand reasons that you cannot eat like this.He does go on to say, “How about we also get rid of screen time?” So that’s another helpful suggestion. “Have a regular game day on weekends where the entire family enjoys a fun physical activity out of the house, like hiking or bike riding.”CorinneMy God. I just really feel like these people don’t live in the real world.VirginiaLike, my kid’s dad takes them hiking every weekend. They may still end up in bigger bodies. If it’s something you all enjoy, that’s wonderful. This may not move the needle on body size, because body size is not determined solely by lifestyle habits. And if you’re telling people that they have to do all of these things to control body size, and it doesn’t work, that’s going to backfire and cause bigger problems.So I’m just very tired. I’m very tired of all of this. CorinneI am determined to find out if this guy has kids, and just for the record, he’s not wearing a wedding ring in his videos. I just feel like there’s no way this guy is speaking from personal experience, you know? Like he’s just spouting bullshit that he read somewhere. VirginiaHe talks about having been in a bigger body himself and his mom putting him on diets as a child. And I have all the empathy in the world for that. But please do not think you are helping anybody by telling us to cut fruit into a fucking heart shape. I will take my cookie cutters and melt them down. My child would not eat a kiwi if it was shaped like a star if I paid her. It’s not gonna happen.  So, I think it’s pretty clear where we land on all of this, but Emily does have one final speech in the episode which sums up where she is landing on this. And we can read that and then have feelings. CorinneWhat will it take to get more vegetables and fruits into the hands of kids and families? That, in my view, is the core question. But the cultural problem is just as pernicious. As we learned from Pamela in France, Carrots are just delicious, objectively. In America, that’s not a fact. I’d say here, Doritos are objectively delicious, and therein lies the problem.What would it take to have more parents like Ellie who simply refuses to give her kids fast food, who prioritizes fruits and vegetables for them because she knows and has told her children that that’s what’s good for bodies. She’s setting them up for a much better chance at good health.VirginiaShe’s also setting them up for a much higher risk of an eating disorder. I mean, the fact that we’re ending the episode by saying Ellie—who is the most restrictive parent in the episode—is doing it right, really says a lot to me about where Emily is landing on these issues now. And, just how useful this whole conversation could be to any parent, if the takeaway is you need to be rigorously cooking from scratch, getting your kids to like fruits and vegetables at any cost.None of this is new advice. None of this has worked before. This is the Let’s Move playbook, which Emily herself acknowledges did not do anything to move the needle on childhood obesity. CorinneYeah, and this whole thing about it being like a cultural problem is so mind boggling to me, because when I hear “but it’s a cultural problem,” I’m like, yes, it’s a systemic problem. How is Ellie telling her kids that carrots are delicious solving a cultural problem? That’s just one person? VirginiaYou’re defining culture as social systems and structures, and she’s defining culture as personal preferences. And that is not accurate. This whole pivot into personal responsibility, again, I feel like, is really at odds with her earlier work. And it’s just very aligned with The Free Press and with being in a more conservative media outlet, which is what’s happening here. And I’m sorry to see it.Again, I do think Emily is fundamentally a smart person. I’ve had a lot of respect for her work over the years, and it’s hard to see this transition. The last thing I’ll say is on a personal note: Emily, if you listen to this episode, I hope you’re still letting your kids eat their Halloween candy. Because one thing I did achieve a few years ago was persuading her not to count out her kids Halloween candy anymore. And I just hope you haven’t changed on that one, because I really want your kids to enjoy their candy. All right, well, I’m excited to hear what everyone thinks about all of this. I’m sure there will be many diverse opinions. We welcome you in the comment section.This section contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast!ButterCorinneFor my Butter, I want to shout out this new collaboration between Universal Standard and Jordan Underwood. They did send me a pair of pants and a tank top for free, So little caveat there. And I will say that I tried them on and then ordered some more stuff, so…VirginiaThey sent it for free and and were effective in getting you to buy more of it! CorinneYeah, it definitely worked. It’s a little capsule collection of some clothes that I think Jordan had something to do with designing, and they’re more androgynous pieces. There’s a pair of cargo pants and a cropped tank and a flannel and some sweats. But they’re really cool, and I think people should check them out.VirginiaI am obsessed with the crop tank. I think I need it.CorinneYeah, it’s really nice because it’s both high neck, which I feel like can be kind of hard to find in a tank, and it hits right at your pants waistline. VirginiaIt’s like, the perfect amount of crop. It’s not belly-baring, which would be fine, but we’re getting into colder weather here. It’s just the right fit. CorinneAlso seems like it would be really great to wear under stuff, because sometimes you don’t want a long tank under a shorter shirt.VirginiaI’m very excited to check out the collaboration. CorinneWhat’s your Butter?VirginiaMy Butter is something I have talked about many times, but it is not in the official library of Butter, which seems important to remedy. So my Butter is Meredith Dairy Marinated Sheep and Goat Cheese, which is the world’s best cheese. I will die on this mountain forever. I thanked this cheese in the acknowledgements of my book, CorinneOh my gosh. VirginiaI thanked other people, too, Corinne. I thanked you! But you know, I did shout out the cheese. And when I updated the paperback edition, I continued to shout out the cheese. Stand by that forever.It is a really good creamy goat slash sheep cheese, and it comes in this really delicious oil. Again, I’ve talked about it so many times. I feel like people are gonna be like, yeah, yeah, we know the cheese. But I just need it to be officially in the records as the best cheese. CorinneI have never tried it, so I am going to search this out. VirginiaI know Costco sells it. It’s not a super hard to find thing anymore. A lot of grocery stores are carrying it. I know at Costco you can even get a bigger jar. I get it from a local grocery store, but I’ve definitely seen it more and more places. Because whenever I talk about it, people around the country tell me how much they love this cheese. So I know people in Wisconsin are having it, people in Oregon are having it.It is a great cheese, and you can eat it straight. You can put it on toast with some jam of some sort. It’s very delicious. I also like to as when the jar is almost empty, save the like final bit of cheese in the oil and use that in pasta or salad dressing, and it’s life changing and delicious. CorinneThat sounds really good. VirginiaYep, I’m just glad to have it officially in the record of butter. That was something I needed to remedy, so thank you.