[PREVIEW] The Tyranny of the Millennial Camisole
[PREVIEW] The Tyranny of the Millennial Camisole  
Podcast: The Burnt Toast Podcast
Published On: Thu Dec 05 2024
Description: Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark! It's time for your December Extra Butter! Today, we’re talking about bellies—and how we’ve been taught to dress them. You need this conversation if you have feelings about:SpanxHorizontal stripesThe Millennial structured camisole era + long, flowy topsAlways tucking in your shirt/never tucking in your shirtAnd so much more.If you are already an Extra Butter subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon. To get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.Otherwise, to hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to join Extra Butter. PS. Don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of healthcare providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.CREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Episode 170 TranscriptVirginiaSo people say “dressing for your belly,” but it’s dressing to disappear your belly, really.CorinneTo camouflage it.VirginiaYes. And of all the fat fashion rules that we’re indoctrinated with, the belly-based dressing rules are for sure, the ones that have done the biggest number on me over the years. I don’t know how you feel about it?CorinneProbably true. It is just kind of hard to find clothes that fit right if you have a belly. It feels like most clothes are not designed for that.VirginiaWhat we’re saying is, this is an episode for our apple shapes. Pear-shaped listeners, you’re also welcome. Anyone who doesn’t want to define their body by a fruit shape—thank you women’s magazines—is also welcome. But yeah. Our conversation today is about the persecution of the apple-shaped body specifically, and the ways that women’s fashion, in particular, is not made for that body shape.CorinneHonestly, I think men’s fashion, too.VirginiaWait, are men supposed to have an hourglass? I’m confused.CorinneNo, but I think men are supposed to be wider at the top and narrower down, so if you have a belly a lot of times clothes don’t fit right.VirginiaOhhh, interesting. That makes sense. And then a lot of nonbinary brands tend to cut for a thinner androgynous fit, which is also not this body.CorinneSo across the board, it’s bad.VirginiaYes. So we threw this out to all of you and you told us all of the rules you’ve learned to follow for what you can and cannot wear if you have a visible belly. We’re going to talk through it all and process and, I think, release some of these garbage ideas.Do you have a sense of when these rules entered your brain?CorinneThe strongest memory I have about it is being in high school, because low rise jeans were really in. So I was wearing a lot of low-rise jeans, and not crop tops, but just normal length shirts, but my belly would hang out a little bit. And my mom would always be like, “Oh, your belly is hanging out.” Like, “do you want your belly hanging out?” So I was just becoming aware of my belly “hanging out.”VirginiaI think mine is high school, too. I can remember getting a dress for a homecoming dance that was very, very fitted—what we would call bodycon today. And I was a thin teenager, but I had the rough shape that I have today. And so it was this moment of realizing that on me, that dress was not flat on the front. It wasn’t flat because I had boobs, but it also wasn’t flat because my stomach. And being really self conscious and sort of horrified. I think that was one of my first moments of realizing that. And this is a total thin privilege statement, but it was one of my first moments of realizing that just because a dress looked a certain way on a model, didn’t mean it would achieve that on my body. Like, I hadn’t quite grasped that disconnect before. Tthis doesn’t look on me like the way it’s supposed it’s “supposed” to look, and it’s specifically because of my stomach.CorinneBellies can be kind of a good example of how fatphobia can also be a problem for thin people, because even if you’re thin, wearing straight sizes, but you have a belly, you can still experience some type of faphobia.VirginiaDefinitely. I mean, it dovetails into the whole “mistaken for pregnant” conversation, which we’ve talked about. I think a lot of the anxiety about the visible belly is rooted in that “I will look pregnant when I’m not pregnant” fear. Which when you unpack it—why is that such a terrifying concept? I mean, because of anti-fatness, of course. That feels like this worst case scenario for people, when it’s really just an honest mistake someone might be making about your body because we don’t normalize body diversity enough.CorinneYeah, very true. Do you personally have any sort of belly dressing rules that you are still adhering to, or that still you still think about?VirginiaI mean, I have to say, as we were putting the list together, there were a lot. There are a few of these I am proud to say I have completely divested from. And there are more that I am still a work in progress on. And I’m just going to be real about that.But I think the big one for me is the idea that your belly can be visible through clothes. There is still this thing in my brain that’s like, “I have to somehow erase it!” in the way I get dressed, which leads to a lot of what we’re going to talk about. Not that anything I wear ever erases the fact that I’m a fat woman with a belly. People can see.CorinneIt’s so complicated, too, because sometimes your belly is really visible but it’s because something doesn’t really fit you right! So it’s hard to, like, completely disentangle the the rules from comfort, I think.VirginiaDefinitely. Yes. And I will say I think one evolution I’ve made is that I am no longer willing to be uncomfortable in service of erasing my belly. That is not interesting to me. And that, I think, is a real big moment of growth. I am going to take that win.What about you? Are there things that you do or don’t wear because of this?CorinneI just recently was brushing up against one because the jeans from the Universal Standard Jordan Underwood Collaboration have front patch pockets—you know what I mean?And I usually hate those. There are a few reasons. I just feel like when you’re pulling pants up over your belly and then they have a pocket on top, it looks weird. I also don’t like how it feels. And if they don’t fit exactly right, the lines of the pockets will curve or bend. I almost will never buy pants that have front patch pockets like that.@selfiefay@Universal Standard @Jordan Underwood COULD NOT BE MORE EXCITED ABOUT THESE CLOTHES! So cute.VirginiaI get that. Also just because they’re another piece of clothing mental load you don’t need. You know it’s a detail that you’re going to have thoughts about.CorinneThey just don’t look the same when you have a belly. It feels like the pockets should be lower, or I don’t know. But I have been wearing those pants, and I feel fine about them. So, who knows. But I still think most of the time I will not be wearing those.The other one I think will come up later, but I never want to be wearing something that doesn’t go over my belly. Like, I never want to wear pants or a bathing suit bottom that doesn’t cover my belly. And part of me is like, am I hiding? Am I trying to hide my belly? Or is it just more comfortable to me that way?VirginiaYes, I really want to get into this, because this came up a lot. And I have the same thing. I like a high waist so I can feel all tucked in. And it’s really hard to untangle that one because I think some of it is the erasing thing, but some of it is that it feels comfy, cozy. It feels more secure!CorinneI also think if I wore my pants below my belly, my shirts wouldn’t cover my belly most of the time. So it just feels practical.VirginiaYeah, you would be cold. Or, like, you don’t want to share that part of your body with the world.I should say, before we start getting into the nitty gritty of the rules: We are not doing this episode to make anyone feel bad if they’re still clinging to one of these rules. Because I think we do this because they serve us. This is all survival and diet culture stuff. So we’re going to unpack what is anti-fat, what is not useful. Not useful, as in, this actually doesn’t even erase your belly. We’re going to talk about some of the silliness of it, but like—it’s okay.CorinneAnd it’s complicated. It is a combination of things. Not wanting people to see your belly, and also wanting your shirt to cover your pants.VirginiaThis might be a holdover from being pregnant, but I sometimes feel like it like helps my back pain? That’s not quite right, but there’s a support thing you get with a compression waistband, not a super tight one, but there’s a little support you get. I just feel a little sturdier in it.CorinneWhen will people just start designing for this? Can we get clothes that are designed to help us?VirginiaYeah, and not just flatten, but actually support? That would be such a great reframing.On the front patch pockets thing, it reminded me another one I have is button flies.CorinneOh yeah, if it’s open?VirginiaI recently ordered some jeans that I did not realize had a button fly and they went right back. I tried them on for a second, and I was like, NO.CorinneWhere you can see the button fly? But sometimes they cover it.VirginiaBut even if it’s covered, it’s not going to lie flat on a round stomach.CorinneFor me, it’s if the button fly is uncovered and you can see the the denim kind of like pulling around the buttons. I had some jeans like that. And I was like, who did this? But I I don’t mind if it’s covered.VirginiaNothing is going to lie flat because my stomach is not flat, right? But there’s this programming in my brain that says I should be choosing clothes that increase the flatness of my stomach. And so a button fly is “adding bulk.” And it’s going to stick out in a weird way. And not lie smoothly. So why would I take that on? It also doesn’t seem comfortable. I don’t need more things pressing on me. Metal buttons? Like, no, thank you.So we’re all works in progress. And this a safe space to discuss all of this.All right, let’s talk about my favorite rule, which, let me tell you, think at least 50 people named as the number one rule in their brains about dressing for your belly.Even giving you a side view to show how cute horizontal stripes are! Outfit details.1. No horizontal stripes.CorinneYou’ve definitely overcome this.VirginiaI have overcome it! And I want to say to everyone, join me in the Promised Land. It is great. Horizontal stripes are so cute, and you get to wear fun colors and look sort of French. Or just tell yourself that you look French. Why would you not want that? And I just never think about them anymore in relation to my stomach, which is interesting.CorinneYeah, I feel like I’ve always kind of embraced horizontal stripes, but I have had people say to me, “You shouldn’t wear horizontal stripes.”VirginiaJust why?CorinneI don’t know. And I feel like vertical stripes look weird.VirginiaWell, and some people were like, “I’m also told not to wear vertical stripes,” because they’re not going to stay straight on a fat body. Definitely not. You’re going to have a wavy line.CorinneThat’s the patch pockets thing, too, kind of.VirginiaBut who told us that our bodies had to be rulers? Like, what? Even a thin person has dimension. This is so silly. Oh, my God. If you’re going to break no other rules on this list, I really encourage you to get yourself a cute horizontal striped t-shirt and thank me later.I did baby steps into it. I wore them as a base layer at first. So, like I’m wearing one today under a sweatshirt. I would wear it without a sweatshirt now, but so it was like you would see the stripes under a sweatshirt, or under overalls or under a jumpsuit. You can kind of increase your comfort level, and then pretty soon you’ll be like, “Oh yeah, I could just wear horizontal stripes all the time.”CorinneI think the main point here is that the pattern on your clothes isn’t giving people an optical illusion about the size of your body.VirginiaNo. I think you see me as the same size whether or not there are stripes on my shirt. So I think it’s an exposure therapy one. And we can also link to my favorite striped top, which is from Nettle’s Tale, which is a lovely size inclusive brand. (Post-recording: Sorry, it’s sold out right now! But they do have this great stripe.)CorinneThe next rule I feel is kind of similar:2. Don’t wear white.VirginiaThis came from Lauren Leavell, who then wrote, “You know I wear a ton of white.” Because Lauren is like, “I give no fucks.” I don’t think I had ever heard this one.CorinneOh, really?!? I definitely heard light colors make you look bigger and dark colors make you look smaller.VirginiaA lot of people said “wear black.” But I didn’t have this one in my brain ever. I just don’t wear white after Labor Day because I’m from Connecticut, and we have a moral code. But Dacy has worked with me to divest from that a little bit. Not white jeans yet, but I’m getting there.CorinneI definitely heard this one. I think more so in the like, wear dark colors and then people won’t know.VirginiaWell, it feels similar, like you’re actually not fooling anyone. And if you like white or other colors or stripes, just enjoy them.The next one that came up over and over is:3. Wear a long flowy top.The long, flowy top has a real stranglehold on the millennial psyche. I have purchased so many fucking long flowy tops, and I think I’ve finally gotten rid of most of them. I did want to direct us to a reel from Ashley Dorough, who is a plus size fashion influencer. And I really like Ashley’s style, we both really like her style, but she does do a lot of the long flowy tops.CorinneWhen I saw this, I was like, I’ve definitely heard this, and I’m also sort of confused about what a long flowy top is. Because it seems like sometimes it’s just an oversized button down, and sometimes it’s a tunic?VirginiaI think it definitely gets into tunic territory. I feel like the classic example is, do you know that brand Daniel Rainn?A Daniel Rainn top on ThredUpCorinneNo.VirginiaLook up Daniel Rainn tops and you’re going to see what I mean. It’s like a floral chiffon, sort of floaty top no visible waist, very peasant top vibes. And you’re going to wear it with your skinny jeans and ballet flats or ankle booties or whatever. Maybe a long cardigan. I feel like this is peak last 10 years of millennial dressing, especially Millennial Mom dressing.CorinneYeah, this also feels like very Lane Bryant, like the plus size fashion that you’re forced into because it’s all that exists.VirginiaAnd it’s interesting in this reel from Ashley, a lot of the outfits she’s wearing are pretty cute. But to start the reel, she’s wearing a fitted top and jeans that really show her belly. And she kind of gestures to her belly, and then she shows you all these outfits that are very “belly disguising” with these longer sweatshirts. But I actually think the outfit she starts out in is totally cute and she looks great in it! And it’s interesting that it’s not quite a before, but it’s definitely a vibe of “this isn’t how I’d leave the house” or something.CorinneThis is an interesting one, too, with comfort. Are you wearing the longer shirt because you just don’t want to have to worry? Like maybe you’re wearing a long flowy top because if you don’t wear one you’ll be constantly pulling on your shirt.VirginiaI think that’s real. Whenever I do wear something more cropped, I’m very conscious of where it’s situated all day.And I feel like, again, this is one of those “to avoid getting mistaken for pregnant…” tips that has definitely resulted in me being mistaken for pregnant because a lot of these long, flowy tops start to look like maternity wear.CorinneFor sure.VirginiaAnd then it’s aggravating because you’re like, “But I went out of my way to camouflage!” and here I am correctly identified as a fat person but misidentified as a pregnant person? It’s a tricky one. I mean, I definitely get the emotional support of the long flowy top, but I’ve started to veer more towards, like maybe it’s an open cardigan, but I’m going to have a croptop underneath, or a tucked in shirt underneath, or something just to play around with it a little bitMillennial Mom cardigan but visible belly! Outfit details.Okay, the next one really spoke to my soul. This came from Linda, who is @littlewingedpotatoes on Instagram. She wrote:4. “Wear a millennial structured cami under everything.”Oh my God, I wore a camisole under everything for so many fucking years!CorinneThis was huge.VirginiaThe tyranny of the camisole!CorinneYou wore a bra, a cami, and then a shirt.VirginiaSo many clothes. How did we do that? My perimenopausal self could never. I used to wear a sweater that was like a crewneck, a full-body-covering sweater, and I would still wear a camisole underneath that.CorinneAnd some people wore the camisoles that went down.VirginiaAnd they had the lace on the bottom! So you would show the lace on the bottom, like they would be quite long, almost covering your butt, to show that under. And it was a way of advertising, like, “Don’t worry, I have worn the camisole.”CorinneI know. What was that about? What is that camouflaging?VirginiaI think it was like not quite Spanx? I mean, we’re going to get to Spanx. But it was, I’m making an effort towards smoothing it out. I think it was very adjacent to the smooth lines thing. I owned so many of those camisoles, Jesus Christ.Oh, I’m angry about it now. I mean, why did we think we had to do that?CorinneI’m curious if kids are still doing that. Has that come back?VirginiaI’m Googling and I am seeing something about “When Gen Z discovered layering tank tops.” We don’t need to bring this back.CorinneAnd I guess it also could have been a thing where then your belly is not hanging out if you’re wearing low rise jeans.VirginiaYeah, I think it was a way of coping with the low rise jean.CorinneGiving you overlap between the the low rise pants.VirginiaIt was absolutely preventing visible belly and trying to make your belly look flatter somehow, through the magic of whatever material those were made out of. Oh, that’s a really rough one. It’s still with us to some extent. I am wearing a tank top under a sweatshirt right now, I admit. But the sweatshirt ends up low, so I felt like I needed an underneath layer. It’s more about boob coverage, but it’s not visible underneath. Its not hanging out the bottom.CorinneWhatever you say!VirginiaWhatever you need to tell yourself, Virginia!5. Always wear SpanxCorinneThere was so much Spanx trauma. There was a comment in the chat that I really liked where someone was like, “you’re supposed to wear Spanx so the clothes look better on top, but also the clothes would stick to them in weird ways.” And that makes me think of the camisoles too, I feel your shirt would kind of stick to it?VirginiaYep, totally. Unless you were wearing the flowy chiffon top over your camisole, which you definitely needed because also the chiffon flowy tops are all see through. That’s another reason for the camisole. Somebody on Instagram wrote, “Spanx, live on my body and I pay them rent. Can’t kick the habit.” And I was like, oh man, I want you to kick it.This is really about, clothes needing to appear completely smooth on your body. No lumps, no roundness, no “muffin top,” which is a heinous term but certainly a fear that lives in our many of our brains. And again, where did we learn that our bodies need to be mannequin smooth? Like, even if you’re larger, it has to be smooth.CorinneI could never get past how uncomfortable shapewear was.VirginiaSo uncomfortable. I definitely did torture myself with it for a bunch of years for different things. I’m really glad to no longer have that be on my radar. I mean, I think too, it’s related to the fear of visible panty lines, which also is a really weird rule to have. Like, we do all mostly wear underwear. I mean, maybe you don’t, and that’s your choice. That’s fine. But is it the worst thing if people know you’re wearing underwear? Is this actually the breach of the social contract?CorinneI’ve heard people talk about visible belly outline, too.VirginiaThere’s an influencer I want to talk about, Tori Block, who does a lot of “dressing for your belly” content. And I would say about 80 percent of her reels feature, if not shapewear, some kind of body suit. The clothes are very smoothing-focused. Her whole thing is like, “You can have a belly and wear anything you want if you make your body totally smooth.”CorinneIt seems like the formula for a lot of her content is showing her belly and then pulling her clothes up over it.VirginiaWhich is interesting to me, because I honestly think she thinks she’s creating fat positive content in doing that. I think she thinks she’s empowering women to get dressed and enjoy wearing sexy clothes and all of that. But her whole formula is, look how can I erase my belly! I’m going to show you it at the beginning so you know I’m just like you and look at this magic trick. And that isn’t fat positive!CorinneThe headline for this video is “belly confident street wear.” First she’s showing you her belly hanging over her underwear. And then the whole thing is “get black sweatpants and pull them up over your belly.”VirginiaYes, and wear a black bodysuit underneath.CorinneWhich, again, don’t wear white. The first sweatpants are white or gray. And then they have to come up to the smallest part of your body,VirginiaYeah, this no visible belly thing is really tough. I love those Beyond Yoga joggers that I talk about all the time, so I just bought their bootcut leggings, and I love them. I’m wearing them right now, so I’m embracing it, but when I first put them on I did have a moment of, like, oh, right. The cut of this pant versus the joggers does make my belly much more visible. It was interesting, I think, especially because they’re boot cut, and I’m haven’t worn boot cut since the 90s. I was like, “Oh, I don’t know if I’m allowed to wear this anymore?” I had a whole little moment. It’s fine now. But, yeah, the visible belly outline is such an odd fear.CorinneThat kind of gets to our next rule:6. Apron bellies can’t wear leggings.That is definitely one that I have to really think about. Like, why? Because I do kind of feel like I’m not going to go out wearing leggings!VirginiaDon’t you wear them to the gym and stuff?CorinneYeah, I would wear them to the gym, but you wouldn’t wear them to—VirginiaTo go out to lunch or something?CorinneI wouldn’t wear them to go out to lunch, no. I don’t know if it’s the belly, the fatphobia, or I’m just like, “They’re not real pants.” I need to be wearing real pants, you know?VirginiaI mean, I do think our generation really died on the mountain of “leggings aren’t pants” for a long time. And I think it’s okay to let that go. Leggings can be pants! A lot of this, though, it’s not just the belly. It’s also leggings make your butt more visible. Leggings make your crotch more visible.CorinneI do feel kind of naked when I’m wearing them. Like I’m just not wearing enough enough clothing.VirginiaWhich is totally valid and your choice. And, rooted in a culture that tells us that women’s pelvic areas are not okay and should be shied away from. It’s very purity culture feeling.CorinneYeah, although I do feel like the leggings thing probably also applies to men.VirginiaFair point, fair point. I don’t know that a lot of men feel free to wear leggings to lunch. We would not judge. We would support. But we would be like, “That is a bold move, sir. You are making a statement. Do we need to teach you about the long flowy top?”CorinneMen need to start wearing long flowy tops.VirginiaI think that’s how I often wear leggings out in the world, is with a longer shirt, on. Like a button down shirt or something.CorinneI have a thing with leggings. I will wear bike shorts, but I don’t like wearing leggings.Corinne wearing Beyond Yoga Bike Shorts & Old Navy top & BirkenstocksVirginiaBut why? Bike shorts arguably show more of your body.CorinneI know, that’s what I’m saying. I just don’t like how they like look or feel or something. And I probably will wear them to the gym, but I’m still wearing shorts to the gym, so I don’t know.VirginiaInteresting.CorinneWe went through this last year where I was like, “I don’t understand what I’m supposed to wear instead of bike shorts in the cold times.”VirginiaAnd we were all like…leggings? Meanwhile, I’m always like,”How do we wear bike shorts?” And you’re like, “The same way you wear leggings.” We have something with this. This is skinny jeans and Birkenstocks all over again. We can’t explain how we learn some of these things.CorinneI wore leggings for many years of my life, but right now, I’m just not liking leggings.VirginiaDo you want to try a bootcut legging with me?CorinneMaybe I could be more into that.7. Controversial advice around tucking shirts.VirginiaSo people are either told to never tuck in shirts and wear the long flowy top, or they are told they absolutely have to tuck in shirts in order to fake a waist. There’s no middle ground, and yet everyone feels like they’re getting this wrong.CorinneYeah. Maybe that’s why so many people ended up doing the half tuck. The half tuck is the long flowy top plus the showing your waist.VirginiaI did, when the half tuck trend first started, I was like, oh, this is what we do with our long flowy tops. Finally someone made it make sense.I mean, I wrote a whole piece on where this trend originated. Tan France is a big factor here that you need to really reckon with. And there is a lot of inherent fatphobia. There’s fatphobia in both directions, basically. I think maybe especially if you were once in a smaller body, tucking can feel really scary in a bigger body because it is emphasizing that your waist doesn’t actually get magically super small when you tuck. So, I personally find tucking a good fuck you to fatphobic fashion rules because it’s like making me be like, great, I can do this. I am not afraid of how my body looks with a shirt tucked in. (Good God, none of us should be afraid of that.) But I also understand that for people who feel like they always had to tuck in, being able to wear bigger, baggier things is also liberating. It’s a personal journey.We Need to Talk About The Millennial TuckVirginia Sole-Smith·December 5, 2023Read full storyCorinneI feel like I never tuck stuff, but more for annoying clothes reasons, like I find it uncomfortable or bunchy or it just comes untucked.VirginiaDefinitely. To sit at your desk with something half tucked in actually starts to feel deeply impractical after a few minutes.CorinneOr it’s half-tucked in, and then you go to the bathroom, and then I never re-tuck.VirginiaIt’s so weird what we make ourselves do to get dressed and be in the world!Midlife crisis crop top from last summer. (Outfit details.)8. “No crop tops, no visible rolls, keep the belly covered except at the pool, even then high waisted bottoms.”VirginiaI mean, we already said we both kind of buy into this a little bit. This is one we’re struggling with. I did start to experiment with the crop tops last summer.CorinneYeah, yeah. You’ve been wearing a lot of crop tops.VirginiaMy 11-year-old asked if I was having a midlife crisis, so it was clearly a departure from the norm. She was uncomfortable with it. I was more comfortable. But I definitely will say, I’ve been making myself do it. I like it. I like the look of it. I wouldn’t do a crop top with a low rise pant situation. I do crop tops with high waisted things. So it’s like: Am I cropping or am I just putting the fabric in another part of the outfit? Like, I’m only showing like, an inch or two,CorinneI struggle with this one for sure. And I think part of it is I find it uncomfortable.I’ve also definitely thought, if I was going to wear a crop top, like, maybe I should put self-tanner on my belly. My belly is so white. Or I’ve also thought I need to get a tattoo on my belly, just so it’s less wormy.ShareVirginiaI hear that. It’s definitely a trend I’m more comfortable with in the summer where I’m likely to have gotten a little bit of color, although I always wear my sunscreen. I don’t want to discount the fatphobia. But it does feel like with this one, it’s also like deciding how much skin you want to display and who you want to display it for. I think is a sort of core body autonomy thing that we can make space for.Like, I don’t wear a crop top in every setting. There are situations where I feel like a crop top is super appropriate and I feel great in it, and there’s situations where I would definitely not do that. And I think that’s valid.CorinneYeah, that’s totally fair. I can accept that I have a belly, I can show it at the pool in a bathing suit, but I don’t always want to have my belly out at the grocery store. I can accept that I have a round, fat belly, but it’s so white. It’s like day glo. There are some parts that are okay, and there’s some parts I’m still struggling with.VirginiaIt feels like a good point to say, you can aesthetically not be totally on board with an aspect of your body and still be a firm advocate for fat rights. And believe your body has value and should take up space in the world. It’s always useful to put a little space between what do we find beautiful and what do we find valuable. Beauty is actually not what we’re fighting for here. It is great to broaden the definition of beauty and include our bellies, but it’s also okay if you’re like, my body is valuable and should be treated with respect. And I don’t find every part of it aesthetically pleasing at all times.CorinneTotally, yeah. And just because I want to keep my belly covered, I’m not offended if anyone else doesn’t.VirginiaWe support you in your crop tops and low rise jeans if you want to Britney Spears it out in 2024, we’re behind you supporting that.9. “Empire waste with ruching until I die.”That’s a quote from a reader. And I want you to let one of them go. I don’t know that you need to be wearing an empire waist with ruching at all times.CorinneYeah. My question was, is this one thing or two?VirginiaThis is long flowy top on steroids. And again, I have been mistaken for pregnant so many times in an empire waist outfit. I don’t actually know that it is the solution? But it is something that we get told to do.CorinneAlso with this one, empire waist, and ruching, and the long flowy tops—those styles are just not as “in” right now, so I feel like I’m not contending with that as much.VirginiaI agree. But I also think if you have trained yourself to think that you need to wear these styles in order to be socially acceptable, and now they’re not in, that’s its own kind of stress, right?Because if you’re still wearing them, you’re kind of marking yourself as the frumpy fat lady who can’t find trendy clothes or whatever.CorinneThat’s where Lane Bryant comes in, where it’s like, you’re not making us feel cool.VirginiaIf you were like, I don’t care if it’s cool, I love an empire waist, great, that’s amazing. If it’s like, I feel stuck in this empire waist—you can wear a regular waist. You can wear no waist. You could wear low rise jeans.CorinneIf there was a situation in which I had to wear an empire waist, I would be extremely unhappy. I would really not like that.VirginiaI would really complain to the manager. I would have notes.CorinneI hope that style never comes back.VirginiaI think we’re past the age where we get forced into bridesmaids dresses, I feel like that’s the most likely yeah scenario. If you have a friend requiring you to wear an empire waist bridesmaids’ dress, I would look hard at that relationship. And whether you need that person in your life.CorinneThe next one definitely, I definitely have heard.10. Your boobs should stick out more than your belly.I have such a distinct memory of someone telling me this in high school and being like, oh shit, I gotta check that. Do they? I don’t know.VirginiaOh Lord, we’re so mean to ourselves. Not everybody’s boobs stick out more than their belly! Like, that’s bodies. That’s just bodies.I mean, we talked about this in the breast reduction episode. As much as I’m like, oh, I wouldn’t get a breast reduction because I accept my body, it’s also that I wouldn’t get a breast reduction because I feel like having big boobs balances out my body. Like, it’s both things. It’s messy.Is It Diet Culture to Want a Breast Reduction?Corinne Fay and Virginia Sole-Smith·June 27, 2024Read full storyI think it is really interesting that so many of these have this kernel of “intended to make you feel more confident and empowered.” But they actually do the opposite, because they reinforce anti-fatness. That’s what I see in so much of Tori Block’s content and other plus size influencers who do this “dressing for your belly” content. If all the advice is around how to disguise the belly, then how is that actually making us more confident about our bellies?CorinneRight? It’s sort of giving you a threshold. As long as you can fit under this threshold of your belly being smaller than your boobs, or not being able to see your belly when you’re wearing sweatpants, then you’re okay. But if you go past that, then we have a problem.VirginiaYeah, you’re right. The other thing about all of these style rules is there’s a point of fatness in which they no longer matter. Like, to whatever extent they work, they are not going to, work once you’re big enough. So that’s another garbage piece of this.11. Show off your thinnest part.This is classic Apple body advice, because the assumption is you’re round in the middle, but you have skinny legs.And I love a short dress. I’m sorry. I love a short dress. I got nothing,CorinneI’m not wearing dresses, but this is also kind of like the bike shorts thing, where it’s like an oversized top with bike shorts.VirginiaYeah, it is related. I want to challenge it more than I do. And I accept that I am a person in this world.CorinneI think it is also fine to just have a preference for how things look. I don’t know.VirginiaI look cute in short dresses. What can I say? But I can acknowledge that there’s some anti-fatness at work there. Related, if people have cute, short dress links, drop them in the comments. I’m always looking for more. Anyway, moving along.CorinneIt’s winter! No one’s wearing dresses.VirginiaIt’s tights and boots season!Some very adjacent advice to the short dress thing is “accentuate your smallest part, which tends to be your waist or your rib cage just above your belly.” So if you belt, you do it just above your belly, and then the skirt and pants below needs to be really flowy.Again, I feel called out, appropriately.CorinneI don’t like this one because I find it uncomfortable.VirginiaWell, I don’t wear belts. But if a waist on a dress hits at that part of my body that’s so much more comfortable than if it hits lower down on my belly, where my belly does not want a waist.CorinneYeah, I’m thinking about the belts. I also am, wearing high-waisted pants. For a while, I was seeing ads for bras, where the point was to lift your boobs up so you could see the band which is the the smallest part of your body. Which also just sounds so uncomfortable. My boobs would be projecting out two feet. Which, no.VirginiaI don’t need a Jane Austen costume. You know how they used to hike their boobs up?CorinneMy boobs are smashed down over the smallest part of my waist.VirginiaAnd there they will stay. Do not hoist them up.CorinneYeah, so uncomfortable. Like, how are you going about your day?VirginiaHow are you conducting any business with your boobs cinched up and your waist cinched in?I do feel like my big moment of growth is that I won’t sacrifice personal comfort to adhere to any of these rules. I’m not doing the boob hoisting thing. But I do gravitate towards a short dress with not an empire waist, but it’s in that ribcage-y kind of spot.CorinneI mean, what are you going to do? Just wear black, floor length robes?VirginiaI mean, I love a mumu, too. But I’m just naming that it’s complicated and we don’t have to be divesting from every single one of these. I wear horizontal stripes. So I’ve made some progress.12. “No flat front pants or skirts ever.”VirginiaI actually don’t think I adhere to this one. I felt like I more grew up thinking don’t wear pleats because, again, the adding bulk thing.CorinneRight? And this makes me think of the patch pockets, too. I’m like, no, I prefer a flat front.VirginiaBut again, I think it’s like the tucking where I can see the advice going in both directions, and not being helpful in either scenario. So I do kind of get it, but it’s not one that lives in my head. I think I more tend towards flat front. I mean, I do miss maternity jeans a lot of the time. I think anyone should feel free to consider maternity jeans as a great option.CorinneYou mean the ones that have the knit top?VirginiaYeah. I had two pairs I loved. The band where the belt would go had been totally cut off, and it just had kind of a nylon sock attached that pulled up over your belly. So they were super high waisted, they basically went up to my bra, and they were so comfortable. I had another pair that were a higher end brand, maybe Sevens or something, I can’t remember. And they had a regular jeans, like, they had the band and the zipper and everything, but they had elastic in the side pockets. These kind of like patches of elastic on the sides. So they were a lot more comfortable and sort of supportive to your belly. They were great. I am fatter now than I was when I was pregnant, or I’d probably still be wearing them. I think if you’ve been told no flat front pants, I think that’s one you could challenge.13. Only take photos from the front.VirginiaThis last one is something we see all over Instagram. Influencers shoot from the front so you actually can’t tell how big someone’s belly is.CorinneYeah. There’s so much advice out there about how to take photos so you look a certain type of way.VirginiaWe could do a whole other episode about photo advice! It’s a good episode topic.CorinneYeah, and not sitting down. All kinds of stuff.VirginiaBecause everybody looks fatter when they’re sitting down. Which is fine. It’s because your body is folded. It’s normal.CorinneBut yeah, if I’m taking a picture of an outfit, I’m usually taking it head on.VirginiaWell, it also shows the outfit more clearly.CorinneDoes it??VirginiaWell, I guess it doesn’t show the whole outfit, but if I want to see the shirt, I don’t want to see the side of your shirt. I want to see the front of it.CorinneI feel like showing it from the side is just as good. Unless it has a picture on the front. But it’s also like, our eyes are on the front of our heads.VirginiaRight, I’m looking at you right now. I’m not looking at the side of you while we record this podcast. That would be odd.I do appreciate that Dacy always shows a side view. And I will often. I don’t do it as religiously as I could, but I do often try to remember to show a side view if I show an outfit on Instagram. Because I think this is one of those things that small fat folks need to be aware of, because you can fake thinness in a photo or fake more thin privilege than you have. And so if I take the head on photo, and I’m like, oh, I think I think this outfit makes me look thinner from the front. I try to make sure to include the side view. To be like, don’t worry. Still here. Still fat. Just to be more honest.That said, I did appreciate Donnelle from Philly Fat Con, who commented that she doesn’t worry about side views because she thinks how she looks from the side is none of her business. I think that’s pretty valid.CorinneI love that.VirginiaIt’s not for us. Just don’t worry about it, if that’s what’s stressing you out. Just don’t think about that.CorinneTo myself, I am two dimensional.VirginiaI only ever see myself straight on. As far as I know, I have no sides.CorinneYeah, why worry about the people walking behind you see?VirginiaOh, man, I love it. This felt cathartic. You know? It felt good. It felt healing to name all of these absolute trash rules.Is there anything you think you would challenge yourself to try to break now that we like dissected so many?CorinneI am challenging myself to wear these pants with patch pockets.VirginiaI love it.CorinneI would like to feel a little more crop top-comfortable. But I’m also just like, I just don’t know if it’s realistic. You know, I’ve lived almost 39 years and have never been a huge fan.VirginiaIt might not be for you.CorinneI do want to get a belly tattoo, though, and that might change things.VirginiaI do feel like if you get a belly tattoo, you’ll want to wear crop tops. That’s going to be like you in bike shorts.CorinneI do wear a two piece bathing suit. What about you?VirginiaWell, I’ve done horizontal stripes. I’m working on crop tops. I think I need to work on the visible belly outline thing, like wearing these boot cut leggings, like I realized today, I’m wearing them with not a flowy top, but a sweatshirt that sits a little lower and not one of my more cropped tank tops. I feel like I can challenge myself a little bit there.CorinneMaybe you need a bodycon dress.VirginiaOh gosh, okay, that sounds terrifying. So maybe not.CorinneI was just thinking about alternatives to the short dress, like a maxi bodycon.VirginiaI just had a complete fear response? Alright, I’ll explore that. We didn’t even put that on the list, but the bodycon trend I have always felt is not for me. That is not available to the apple shaped person. I’m going to sit with that. I’m excited to hear from listeners which ones of these they’ve broken up with or are working on.CorinneYes, yeah. Rachel in the Substack chat also put in a link to a really cute TikTok from a creator who does these cute videos where she’s hyping up her belly. She calls her belly like “the ginger.” She has an accent, so I don’t want to imitate, but it’s really cute.@kamsendooIt’s the stomach for me! Everything is sitting! #bodypositivity #selflove #sexy #motivationVirginiaI love it. KaMsendoo is the creator. This is adorable. More in belly love. We need it. We definitely need it. I’m here for that.ButterCorinneMy Butter is a snack product which I’ve become completely obsessed with, and also feels somewhat guilty to share, because I find the branding name to be abhorrent. The brand is called Lesser Evil.VirginiaOkay, that’s not a great brand name.CorinneIt’s not great. I think it’s because the snacks are vegan. Still don’t like it. I hate it. I just don’t want to be thinking about foods as evil, lesser evil, whatever. However, they make popcorn and um, balls? Like puff balls? I don’t want to call them cheese puffs, because they don’t have cheese. I guess they’re corn? Corn-based puffs. And they’re so freaking good, I’m addicted. The popcorn they do have a few flavors. There’s a sweet salty one, there’s a cheese one. The one I really like is the flavor is Himalayan Gold. I think it’s just fake butter, like coconut oil butter.VirginiaI think a friend of mine brought this to book club.CorinneIt’s so good. I also really like the fake cheese balls. You can find it online. You can find it at Whole Foods. I also really like making popcorn, but I’ve just become addicted to these bags of Lesser Evil popcorn.VirginiaWell, let’s get them to rebrand.CorinneCan it be Morally Neutral Popcorn. Anyways, if you can get past the branding, I do think it’s really tasty.VirginiaAlright. Well, as a lifetime drinker of Diet Coke, I can get past the branding.CorinneSame, if it tastes good enough, why not?VirginiaIf it tastes good enough we’re here for it.CorinneWhat’s your Butter?VirginiaA little rage organizing is what I want to recommend to people. Now, I know you are not a natural organizer in the same way that I am. And I have written about how organizing is kind of a good/bad thing in my life.Perfectionism and the Performance of OrganizingVirginia Sole-Smith·September 13, 2022Read full storyBut since the election I am very aware that I am feeling out of control in the universe and I need to feel in control of something. And what I am in control of right now is my kitchen countertops. It is all I have.Part of this is because I am still pondering getting an air fryer, as I discussed on a recent podcast episode, and I was really drilling into the whole air fryer discussion with my friend Rachel, who loves her air fryer. And I was like, but where in my kitchen is it going to live?So we started looking around my kitchen, and I really did not have a lot of clear counter space. So I then started investigating, why do 17 bottles of seltzer and children’s water bottles just live on my counter at all times? And I realized it’s because the cabinet where they could live contained two old fire extinguishers and somebody’s sock. It made no sense what was in my cabinets. And I identify as an organized person! But I had these kitchen cabinets that had just become black holes of chaos. And I just, like, on my lunch break the other day, redid it. I just dumped it all out, got everything out of there, moved some stuff, and now my countertops are clean, and those cabinets make more sense. And I don’t even know if I want an air fryer, because I just like how it looks without anything.CorinneWow, that’s so satisfying. I need to do that.VirginiaI am telling you, it is a drug. It is a safe drug. Give yourself a little organization high, a little rage organization. It’s the best. Feels good. It does nothing to help the state of the world.CorinneA few months ago, I got some of those Container Store plastic things for some of my cupboards, and oh my God, I feel joy every time I open my cupboard.VirginiaSo much joy, so much joy. And you know, the performance of femininity and domesticity is a fact. And I get it. Patriarchy makes me love this. And also, now all the children’s water bottles live on a shelf in a cupboard.CorinneYou can actually find stuff.VirginiaI think also what made it so satisfying was that I didn’t try to do the whole kitchen. I didn’t take on a huge project that would be days and hours. It was like, I’m going to deal with these two cupboards, and just do that and be so satisfied that I cleared this three foot area of space on my counter. Like, just do one small little spot and feel great.CorinneWell, I still want to hear if you end up getting an air fryer.VirginiaThis is airing after Black Friday, but it’s possible it will happen, because, I admit, I will be keeping my eye on sale prices. We’ll see! TBD. Stay tuned.But in the meantime, the clean counter space is glorious.The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!