Maintaining Human Intelligence in the AI Era | David Krakauer (President of the Santa Fe Institute)
Podcast: The GeneralistPublished On: Tue Sep 23 2025
Description: David Krakauer is a leading complex systems researcher and the president of the Santa Fe Institute, a unique institution dedicated to studying complex systems across disciplines. In this episode, David challenges conventional wisdom about AI, arguing that large language models pose a more immediate threat to humanity than commonly discussed existential risks—not by destroying us directly, but by eroding our cognitive capabilities through addictive, low-quality information.We explore:• Why David believes LLMs aren't intelligent at all and how the AI community misunderstands emergence• The three dimensions of intelligence: inference, representation, and strategy—and which one LLMs lack• How AI acts as a "competitive" rather than "complementary" cognitive technology, atrophying our thinking abilities• What makes great minds unique, from analogical reasoning to the cultivation of unconscious creativity• How Cormac McCarthy's approach to knowledge and creativity offers lessons for the AI age• Why David believes the greatest threat from AI isn't existential risk but cognitive atrophy• How to protect your mind against AI's addictive pull and maintain cognitive autonomy—Thank you to the partners who make this possibleBrex: The banking solution for startups.Enterpret: Transform feedback chaos into actionable customer intelligencePersona: Trusted identity verification for any use case—Timestamps(00:00) Intro(04:39) The Santa Fe Institute’s approach to complex systems(06:45) Murray Gell-Mann’s ‘Odysseus vs. Apollonian’(10:35) How SFI was shaped by the legacy of Los Alamos(12:45) Traits David looks for in great minds(14:43) Cormac McCarthy on naivety and how thoughtful people treat knowledge(19:24) A simple explanation of complexity science(22:50) Why vantage point doesn’t matter when studying systems(24:36) Aesthetic preferences among complexity scientists(26:07) Films and directors with complexity science themes(29:57) Why David argues LLMs are not intelligent(32:10) What’s missing in the study of LLMs(36:40) The three qualities of intelligence and how LLMs measure up(42:19) Lessons from "The Glass Bead Game"(44:00) David’s perspective on reinforcement learning(45:38) The greatest threat of LLMs: overreliance and the decline of thinking(47:40) Competitive vs. complementary cognitive artifacts(51:55) Why exposing yourself to quality ideas matters(54:00) How to derisk LLM use(58:32) Cormac McCarthy’s legacy at SFI and beyond(1:02:40) The Kekulé Problem: cultivating the unconscious(1:05:01) Why David and McCarthy were inspired by Wittgenstein(1:09:00) What Cormac McCarthy liked to talk about(1:12:20) David’s questions to a higher being(1:14:46) Final meditations—Follow David KrakauerWebsite: https://davidckrakauer.com/—Resources and episode mentions—Books—“The Hedgehog and the Fox”: https://www.amazon.com/Hedgehog-Fox-Tolstoys-History-Second/dp/069115600XThe Birds and The Frogs: https://www.amazon.com/Aristophanes-Frogs-Birds/dp/B000QBPUTYThe Glass Bead Game: https://www.amazon.com/Glass-Bead-Game-Magister-Novel/dp/0312278497Frankenstein: https://www.amazon.com/Frankenstein-Mary-Shelley/dp/0486282112Blood Meridian: Or the Evening Redness in the West: https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Meridian-Evening-Redness-West/dp/0679728759Stella Maris: https://www.amazon.com/Stella-Maris-Cormac-McCarthy/dp/0307269000The Passenger: https://www.amazon.com/Passenger-Cormac-McCarthy/dp/0307268993/Pale Fire: https://www.amazon.com/Pale-Fire-Vladimir-Nabokov/dp/0679723420Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus: https://www.amazon.com/Tractatus-Logico-Philosophicus-Routledge-Classics-123/dp/0415254086Ludwig Wittgenstein: The Duty of Genius: https://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-Wittgenstein-Genius-Ray-Monk/dp/0140159959Ellmann's Joyce: The Biography of a Masterpiece and Its Maker: https://www.amazon.com/Ellmanns-Joyce-Biography-Masterpiece-Maker/dp/0674248392Moby Dick: https://www.amazon.com/Moby-Dick-Herman-Melville/dp/1503280780Hyperobjects: Philosophy and Ecology after the End of the World: https://www.amazon.com/Hyperobjects-Philosophy-Ecology-after-Posthumanities/dp/0816689237The Anatomy of Melancholy: https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Melancholy-Review-Books-Classics/dp/0940322668The Golden Bough: A Study of Magic and Religion: Volume I: https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Bough-Vol-Study-Religion/dp/1480131466Three Critiques: https://www.amazon.com/Three-Critiques-3-Set-Practical/dp/0872206297The World as Will and Representation: https://www.amazon.com/World-Will-Representation-Vol/dp/0486217612/——People—Cormac McCarthy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cormac_McCarthyMurray Gell-Mann: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Gell-MannArchilochus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArchilochusFyodor Dostoevsky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyodor_DostoevskyLeo Tolstoy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_TolstoyAristophanes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AristophanesHesiod: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HesiodHomer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomerEugene Wigner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_WignerLeo Szilard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_SzilardJohn von Neumann: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_NeumannMichel de Montaigne: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_de_MontaigneMelanie Mitchell’s website: https://melaniemitchell.me/Ingmar Bergman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingmar_BergmanAkira Kurosawa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akira_Kurosawa#Legacy_and_cultural_impactAndrei Tarkovsky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_TarkovskyJohn Henry Holland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_HollandChristopher Nolan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_NolanJonathan Nolan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_NolanHenry James: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_JamesVladimir Nabokov: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_NabokovFrank Lloyd Wright: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lloyd_Wright——Other resources—The Santa Fe Institute: https://www.santafe.edu/The Cormac McCarthy I Know: https://davidckrakauer.com/artifacts/2022-the-cormac-mccarthy-i-knowMichel de Montaigne’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6873908-we-can-be-knowledgeable-with-another-man-s-knowledge-but-weThe Seventh Seal: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050976/Rashomon: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042876/Stalker: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079944/Solaris: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0069293/The Exterminating Angel: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056732/2001: A Space Odyssey: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062622/Large Language Models and Emergence: A Complex Systems Perspective: https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2025arXiv250611135K/abstractKind of Blue: https://www.amazon.com/Kind-Blue-Miles-Davis/dp/B000002ADTWhy neural net pioneer Geoffrey Hinton is sounding the alarm on AI: https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/why-neural-net-pioneer-geoffrey-hinton-sounding-alarm-aiWhy the Real Computer Revolution Never Happened | Alan Kay & Anjan Katta: https://www.generalist.com/p/why-the-real-computer-revolution-never-happenedZettelkasten: https://zettelkasten.de/overview/ImageNet: https://www.image-net.org/The Kekulé Problem: https://nautil.us/the-kekul-problem-236574/Robert Frost’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/71609-writing-free-verse-is-like-playing-tennis-with-the-net—Production and marketing by penname.co. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email jordan@penname.co. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.generalist.com/subscribe
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