so... why aren't you Orthodox? | Paul VanderKlay
so... why aren't you Orthodox? | Paul VanderKlay  
Podcast: The Pursuit of Beauty with Matthew Wilkinson
Published On: Tue Sep 29 2026
Description: Three years ago they were listening to Sam Harris. Now they're kissing relics. Reformed pastor Paul Vander Klay joins me to talk about the Orthodox moment, why liturgy is having a renaissance, and what screens have to do with it.Paul has spent years at the center of the conversation around Jordan Peterson, Jonathan Pageau, and John Vervaeke, and he's the co-founder of Estuary, a network of small conversation groups meeting all over the world. We talk about how Estuary gets atheists and Christians talking without the polemics, why Paul thinks "attentional weaponry" is pushing people toward liturgical worship, why Coptic churches have TV screens, and his first experiences of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy.We also get into relics and the "religious con," the myrrh-streaming icon that ended my panic attacks, what Paul still holds as a Christian Reformed minister (including why icons don't work for him), what Protestants are missing that the Orthodox have, Kuyper, Bavinck & Barth, the Heidelberg Catechism vs. Westminster, Vervaeke's "religion that's not a religion," and why you can't live off the religious buffet: fans are not a home.This is The Pursuit of Beauty, conversations on sacred music, iconography, architecture, and the theology of beauty across Christian traditions.CHAPTERS00:00 Cold open00:50 Welcome, Paul Vander Klay02:09 The Pursuit of Beauty & moving beyond polemics05:55 What is Estuary?13:35 How Estuary avoids polemics15:31 Evangelism without the bait-and-switch17:18 The future of Estuary18:56 Bible studies vs. real conversation20:18 What modernity took from us: feasting, the Supra21:25 "Attentional weaponry" & the liturgical renaissance25:13 Why Coptic churches have screens26:36 Is liturgy really in the vernacular?28:25 Paul's first Orthodox liturgies31:18 From the emerging church to Orthodoxy33:22 The "Orthobros" & a diverse Orthodox landscape35:29 Relics, universal history & the "religious con"37:29 A myrrh-streaming icon & the end of my panic attacks38:21 The Eucharist, relics & Luther's elector40:59 What Paul still holds as a Protestant42:34 Icons: looking at vs. looking through46:38 What Protestants lack: confession, the hours, fasting & the saints49:47 A son of the Reformation51:02 Kuyper, Bavinck & Barth56:07 Westminster vs. Heidelberg58:34 How Paul met Vervaeke & Pageau1:04:05 Bishop Maximus & the earliest Byzantine chant1:05:06 Vervaeke's project & the "religious buffet" problem1:12:29 Why you need a home: the difficult neighbor in the pew1:14:23 Commitment, marriage & "fans are not a home"1:16:01 Peterson's providential timing1:17:10 ClosingPAUL VANDER KLAYYouTube: [link]Estuary: [link]SUPPORT THE PURSUIT OF BEAUTYPatreon: [link]Substack: [link]Shop: [link]#Orthodoxy #Liturgy #PaulVanderKlay