How can you audit your writing process so you get more words on the page and finish your books? How can you network at author conferences, even if you’re an introvert? T.D. Donnelly shares tips from 30 years as a Hollywood screenwriter and his book, Superdraft. In the intro, memento mori, and updated dates for AI webinars. This show is supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  T.D. Donnelly is a bestselling thriller author, and he’s been a professional screenwriter in Hollywood for 30 years. His first book for authors is Superdraft: The Art and Science of Better, Faster Writing. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How to network at author conferences, and why it works for introverts The difference between craft and process, and how to audit your own writing process Balancing the creator and the critic at each phase of writing Dictation tips for getting words on the page with AI tools What the rules of improv can teach you about writing How to bring a professional mindset to your writing You can find Tom at TDDonnelly.com. Transcript of interview with T.D. Donnelly Jo: T.D. Donnelly is a bestselling thriller author, and he’s been a professional screenwriter in Hollywood for 30 years, which we talked about on our previous episode in March 2025. His first book for authors is Superdraft: The Art and Science of Better, Faster Writing. So welcome back to the show, Tom. Tom: It’s great to be here, Jo. Great to talk to you again. Jo: Yes, indeed. Well, give us a bit of an update, because when we spoke last, and it was only, I guess, 18 months ago, you’d just launched Year of the Rabbit. I read it, and it was a fantastic book, but it was your first novel even though you’re so experienced. So give us an update. How has your career developed, and what have you learned about launching and books? Tom: Oh God, what have I learned? Have I learned anything, I think, would be the fairer question. So I’m still a screenwriter. I still have a day job in Hollywood. It’s been a rough time in Hollywood, but I still get the occasional job there. So my plan, in the first two or three years of my novel career, to put out six books has not quite gotten to six. I do have three out. I have Year of the Rabbit, I have Year of the Horse, and I have Year of the Serpent, and I should have Year of the Dragon out by Christmas. So that part has gone well. Now, I have a lot of people that I’ve met through this community that know a lot more than I do, and I have to rely on them for learning about marketing, things like that. In Hollywood, nobody wants to ask a screenwriter about marketing questions. They have a whole department with hundreds of people in it that are in charge of all of that sort of stuff. The advice that I got overwhelmingly was, “Don’t even bother doing paid ads until you have three books out.” Because the odds of them being able to pay off and make sense aren’t there. So I have just started advertising this year, and everyone has said this is a really, really bad year to be starting advertising. Everything is in flux. Everything is in question. What is going on with Facebook? What is going on with Amazon? Why are the things that we were doing not working anymore? I have found a modest level of success with my ads, which I’m very, very happy about. I’m happy that at least I’m doing slightly better than breaking even on the ads, and I’m getting a lot more signups to my newsletter, which I have to admit has been… how would I put this? Inconsistent. I will say I have an inconsistent newsletter. My New Year’s resolution for this whole year is to get more consistent with it. I am loving it. The books have been very well reviewed. Year of the Rabbit was the one that I spent so much time just making it perfect. Then the next two I was able to do a little bit faster, and people seem to really love the series and to see these characters evolving. So I’m having a great time. That’s all I can say. Jo: Well, I think you’re doing the things that are the right things to do. You’re writing books in a series, which is one of those things that everyone says you should do, and in fact, many of us do. I’ve certainly never been very good at doing multiple books in a series one after the other. I tend to start a series and then start another series, and then another series, and then maybe write a second book. So you’ve done things in a really good order, and I hope people are encouraged. I mean, you have 30 years, like we say, in Hollywood. I’ve read Year of the Rabbit. I know you can write. But that’s not the only challenge, and I think that is so important in an age of AI, because whether or not anyone agrees that AI could ever write a book, the writing of the book is only one part of the journey, right, as you have discovered. Tom: Absolutely. Jo: Actually reaching readers is a real challenge. Tom: Oh my God, it’s so hard. Just read a gosh darn book. This book’s great. You’re going to love it, okay? I have a once-a-week golf outing with some old friends of mine, and there’s three of us, and the golf course we play on likes to go out with fivesomes, so they generally pair us up with one or two more people. The number of times we have finished a round and I have not sold a book to one of the poor two hapless people that are paired with us… my friends are just like, “Oh my God, there he goes again. Oh my God. What, did he make it to the third hole before he started pitching them the book?” It is one of those things, and it’s not easy to be good at writing a book and good at writing ad copy. These are very different hats you have to wear. Not everybody can be great at them. That is why I think your advocacy for “let’s see what AI can do for us in these realms”, to maybe help us with the things we’re not so good at, I think is really key. Jo: Oh, good. Right. Well, one thing you have been incredibly good at is pitching and speaking and networking at author events. You’ve spoken at lots of author conferences over the last few years. I’ve seen you speak. You give a lot to authors, but also you’ve done a really good job at networking and becoming part of the community. There’s a lot of writers who feel like that’s something they want to do. Maybe they’ve written a book that would help other authors, but they just don’t know how to break in. Now, I realise part of that is personality. You’re a friendly guy, right? What tips do you have around networking and pitching, and how has that helped you? Tom: It’s really funny. I’ve been talking to some writers. I was just speaking at NINC, and then before that at SPS Live in London, and at both conferences it came up. “You’ve only been in this business for two years, Tom, and you know everybody, and everybody knows you. How did you get to do that?” Then I start talking to people about networking, and it’s like I’m speaking a foreign language to them. I guess in Hollywood you kind of have to. You’re trained up. It’s a relationship business. You have to have the goods. You have to be a great writer, but that alone… great writers fail in Hollywood all the time because they can’t do that. So eventually I will have to do a talk at one of these conferences about networking. So here’s one thing that I do, which is going to sound mental. First of all, every conference I go to, I come up with three goals. What are my three goals? What are the three things that I want to accomplish going to this conference? In the beginning they were all very me, me, me goals because I needed a lot of help, and I still do. So I went to a conference, a conference where I met you actually, and said, “I’m going to find writers that are in my genre, and I’m going to pitch them and ask them if they would consider reading the book, and if they like the book, to blurb it.” I wanted to get professional blurbs, and you were very kind to give me a fantastic blurb that is on the cover of one of my books. Jo: Only because it was a good book, by the way, for anyone listening. I don’t normally do that, and I said that to you. Tom: No, and I said it in the pitch. I said, “Listen, if you don’t love it, do not even worry about it. It’s going to be absolutely fine.” Jo is not a blurb factory, people. Do not bother her, okay? Anyway, so I put together these three goals, and then once I have those three goals I think, “Okay, how am I going to approach those goals?” So before I’ve even gone to the conference… and what I do, it’s a weird thing. Do you know the app called Anki, A-N-K-I? Jo: No. Tom: It’s this tiny little free app that basically allows you to make flashcards for yourself, and you can test yourself with these flashcards. People use it for language learning all the time. I get pictures of people that are speaking at the conferences I’m going to that I don’t know, and for about a week or two before the conference I flash those pictures twice a day on the screen, and I have to be able to identify who they are, something interesting about them, and something that they’ve written. It’s one of those repetitive things where if I got it right away, then I don’t need to see that card again for the next 10 minutes. If I didn’t get it, that card goes right back into the slot. So I get to be on a first-name basis with a person I haven’t met yet. So when I go to these conferences, I feel more comfortable because, oh, I know you, and oftentimes they’ll be like, “Have we met?” I’m like, “No, we haven’t, but I think you’re fantastic. This book looks really interesting. I haven’t read it yet, I’m sorry to say, but I’m dying to take a look at it.” That helps break the ice. I’ve tried this with introverts—I am not an introvert—and they have said that it is way more powerful for introverts than it is for extroverts, because breaking the ice is the hardest thing, and if you know something about someone, you have a starting-off point to talk to them. Does that make sense? Jo: Oh, that is genius. It’s so interesting, and I’m so glad you mentioned that. I’ve done this before as well, and still do at various things. I will look at the speaker list and I will look at their website or whatever, and I just take screenshots on my phone so that I have that there. Then, like you say, if there’s somebody I want to meet, I will practise. Even sometimes I’ve been at conferences, I’ve seen somebody is there who maybe I didn’t even expect, and then I will duck into a toilet stall or something and I will go look them up. I’ll often go look on their social media to see what they’ve been talking about, maybe something today or yesterday. Then I can use that, and then I’ll go out, and I’ll have something prepared. As an introvert, as you say, going up to people and just trying to strike up conversation is extremely hard. So I love that you mention that, and I really hope that helps people listening. In terms of how you got to speak, is that really because you have the Hollywood background? As people immediately, like I did, go, “Oh, okay. You have some chops here.” So you leaned on your other career, basically. Tom: I think so, yes. So three years ago we were in the middle of a Hollywood writers’ strike here, and for 10 months I couldn’t write movies or television. They shut us out, and it just happened to be when I had two kids in college. So lovely, wonderful. Perfect timing for that. I was really starting to worry about no money coming in, only money going out, and then I decided I was going to write the first book in what is now a series. I met this community, first at the last 20Books Vegas, and then at all the conferences since. You guys were so welcoming to me, you included me. You were so welcoming and positive and encouraging that I really feel a debt to you guys, because you are a second family. I say that all the time. You are my second family, and it is a found family that I’ve discovered in the last three years. So I just want to give back as much as I can. It turns out being a Hollywood screenwriter means a lot to a lot of people, but you still have to sing for your supper. You still have to prove it. But people hear “Hollywood screenwriter” and think, “Well, this person probably knows something about writing,” having done it for 31 years now. The interesting thing that most people don’t know is that screenwriters are forced to talk about craft and defend their craft in a way most novelists never have to. Novelists have, if you’re traditionally published, an editor or two that gives them feedback, and that’s about all the feedback they get. Indies, we get feedback from beta readers, from people like that as well, but once again, not a ton of feedback. In screenwriting, oh boy, everybody who reads that script is going to be in a development meeting, sitting around a corporate boardroom table with billionaires saying, “Why are we spending so much money on this? Tell me what the hell is going on.” They’re going to challenge everything. They’re going to tell you that they want to cut this, and you know that cutting this is going to destroy the story. Can you explain why? Can you defend it? Can you talk about character? Can you talk about character arcs? Can you talk about thematic constraints? Can you talk about the setups and payoffs in a way that these people that are barely literate can understand? It turns out that makes for a person that can give a really good presentation on things like craft, on story. Jo: Yes, and just for people listening, of course it’s kind of obvious that your background would be relevant. So I just want to encourage people to pitch based on their background. So for example, I had a wonderful lady, Johanna Rothman, on this show a while back now. When I met Johanna, she was like, “I’m project manager, business, entrepreneurial,” the management side of being an author, managing all these different tasks we have to do. I was like, “Great, I want to talk to you about project management for authors and that kind of thing.” So I had her on the show to talk about that. I’ve got someone coming on who’s an expert in change management, and we’re going through a lot of change. So I feel like anyone listening— You can take what you do in your daily life, and you can apply that to the author environment. That can be useful, right? As you’ve discovered, there’s a whole load of things that are useful. Tom: Absolutely. Yes. Sing for your supper. Our community is what I call stone soup. You know the myth of stone soup, where you put a stone in there, and everyone else is like, “Oh, the stone is going to make a magic soup.” Yes, but we need a few things, so you go and get some ramps or some onions, and you go out and get some carrots, and then we all put in. Of course, the stone has nothing to do with the soup, right? But the community that we have and the richness of it is the conglomeration of all the little unique things that we bring and put into it. That we all do. So put things into it. You introverts, you’ve got to put yourself out there because you have a lot to share, and it’s really worthwhile. Jo: Oh, yes, for sure. Right. Well, let’s talk about your book, Superdraft. What I found interesting is you say this is a process book (I guess you’d say “prah-cess”, but I would say “pro-cess”) rather than a writing craft book. I found this really interesting because it feels like you were making a point of this. So what do you mean by a process book, and how can people audit their process in order to improve? Tom: The vast majority of books you will read on writing are about, when you are writing, how to make the things that you’re writing artistically valid and meaningful and better. Process is the nuts and bolts of how you get yourself up in the morning, sit down, or maybe in my case I don’t sit down, I walk, but write those words, get those words down, and do the thing that is writing. That is what the process is. There are very, very few books on process. There’s Julia Cameron. Natalie Goldberg, Writing Down the Bones. Those are books on process. It’s very hard to find books that are specifically about what we do to write. Not what we do when we write, but what we do to write, and that is how I would define process. Jo: So how can authors examine what their process is in order to improve it? Tom: So I think first what we have to recognise is there’s a reason that there are so many books about craft and so few about process. That’s because if I told you that I have this great craft tip, you would, with no emotion whatsoever, look at it, listen to it, and potentially incorporate it into the next thing that you write. If I tell you, however, that I want you to change your process, how you actually write, I see the deer-in-the-headlights look on people’s faces when they’re like, “Wait, what? No, no, no, no, no, no, no,” and that’s because writing is very, very hard. What we do is incredibly difficult. There is a German author, Thomas Mann, who said, “A writer is someone for whom writing is more difficult than it is for the average person,” and I think that’s absolutely true. Writing is more difficult for a writer than it is for a normal person because everything means something to us. It’s important. If I asked a non-writer to write 20,000 words, and you get paid $10,000 when you have those 20,000 words done, I would almost always get a manuscript within two or three days. If you tell a writer to do that, oh my goodness. Because, “Oh, but somebody’s going to read it. It can’t just be anything. It’s got to be good. It’s got to be this. It’s got to be that.” I use an example: which is harder, running a marathon or writing a novel? And we have experience on this, right? I talked to marathon coaches, and they say 70% of the people who start a marathon finish a marathon. We have stats from NaNoWriMo, rest in peace, that say 11% of people who start NaNoWriMo finish the novel. That is six times harder than it is to run a marathon. That’s how hard it is, and that’s all emotion, right? There are physical things that are going to stop you from running a marathon. There’s nothing physical, for almost anybody nowadays, especially with all the different ways we can write, stopping you from writing. So the key to process is going to be to get the mental and emotional roadblocks that are keeping you from your best way through this process out of the way so that you can write. I think it comes down to the two parts of the brain that operate when we’re writing. I call them the two voices, the creator and the critic, and finding a way to harness both of them is very, very difficult. Jo: Okay, well then— Let’s get into some of those roadblocks that might be stopping people. Tom: Sure. So, you are a discovery writer. Jo: Mm-hmm. Tom: In Hollywood terms, I am a discovery writer. In novel terms, I am very much still a plotter. In Hollywood you can’t be a pantser really. You really can’t do that, but I’m as close to a pantser as you can be and work in Hollywood. I will hit a point in the outlining process where I’m like, “I know enough. Can I please just write? Can I please not outline anymore and just write?” Sometimes they accept that, and sometimes they don’t. But I would say that what these two things really are is which of those two voices is more dominant in your process. For a discovery writer like yourself, you guys are great with that creator voice, that quiet, soft voice that is saying, “Go, try it, try it. Just let it flow. It’s going to come. Don’t you worry. I’m going to feed you when you need to be fed, but you’re not going to know what it is right now.” You guys can write that way, and write forward, and write beautiful, amazing things. Whereas for me, I need to see the buoys coming ahead so I know that I’m still in the channel. I need to have some amount of a road to follow in order to write. That’s the critic voice being in there saying, “Nope, nope. You’re going off the path again. Nope, that’s not good enough. No, you can’t do that.” Both are valid, and I think in an ideal writing process for anybody, what we really want to get to is a place where both voices get their turn at bat, so to speak. I don’t know. Am I using a baseball metaphor to a Brit? I apologise. Jo: Cricket. I’ll assume it was cricket. Tom: Yes, cricket. Exactly. There you go. Cricket. Step up to the wicket, right? You need to use both of those voices. To some degree when I call myself a plotter, I am saying that I am going to be a heavy critic-voice process. When you say you’re a discovery writer, “I am going to be a heavy creator-led process.” For most people, I think that the ideal process later on, when you experiment and you try things, is actually a process that is a little more balanced. I think plantser is the term we use, right? Plantser is not quite a plotter and not quite a pantser. You’re in between. I think an ideal process is where both voices get their turn to speak, get their turn to share, and we’ve made peace with the voice we’re less comfortable listening to. Make sense? Jo: Yes, I think it makes sense. Screenwriters, obviously you have to be a lot more controlled, I guess, because you’re writing for money, and you’re generally writing on someone else’s dime, and you need to get that done. I feel like for a lot of us as writers, that’s not where we start. For most people, you don’t start writing books as a job like that. It’s not something that happened at the beginning. I know it doesn’t happen for many beginning screenwriters as well. Tom: You make it sound so sordid. “I know that you’re writing for money. You’re writing for money. You’re out there in the street peddling your wares.” Jo: No, but that’s a good thing. Well, you know I’m not saying it like that. Tom: No, I know. Jo: I would also say to people, it depends on the book. So for example, right now I’m doing my fourth edition of How to Market a Book. Now, this is not an intuitive, discovery-written book. It is nuts and bolts, it is chapter by chapter, and it is very useful, and I’ve done a survey, and it is writing to my market for sure. I’m still enjoying it. I can still get in places of flow, but it is not my fun, intuitive discovery writer process, which I will do next. The next book I am just indulging myself with, and I’m sure it will not sell as many copies. Tom: Don’t say that. Don’t manifest that. Come on. Just let it be what it’s going to be. Jo: Oh, no. I’m trying to encourage people that you can do both on different books as well. Tom: Absolutely. I believe that you should do both on every book you write, but the key is not that we’re going to write this book using just the creator and this book just using the critic. No, it’s actually both. The only problem is that when the critic voice is operating, you cannot hear the creator. That is the real problem. The creator is very quiet, and the critic is a loud, drunken jerk, and it is very, very hard to hear them both at the same time, if not impossible. So really what Superdraft is about is separating the writing process into phases. Creator-led phases like brainstorming and the actual drafting, and critic-led phases like outlining. Stay with me, discovery writers. You don’t have to outline a lot. You don’t even have to outline at all if you don’t want to. If you wanted to do a very, very minor outlining step, I have the smallest outlining step known to man in the book that you could use if you wanted to. And then editing, obviously, is a critic-led phase as well. The reason so many people start writing a book and don’t finish it is that the wrong voice starts talking during the wrong part of the process. And more often than not, for a lot of people, that’s the critic. The critic runs rampant. The critic comes in when the creator is supposed to have the talking stick, so to speak. There are ways that I’ve found over the years, through painful trial and error, to stop the critic in their tracks and to give the creator their due. Jo: I feel like a lot of the time we talk about these things, and it’s just assumed that it’s easy to get words on the page and then edit them later. So tell us— How do you write at the moment, and what are some tips for people who might be struggling to get words on the page? Tom: Absolutely. All right. So I will say that this is not a book about dictation, but I am a little dictator here in Hollywood. I go at 6:00 AM to the beach. I walk for between an hour and three hours if things are going really, really well. My bare feet are walking in the surf, up and down Santa Monica and Venice Beach, and I dictate the next chapter, or chapters, of the novel as I go. What I do is the night before, either on a notes app on my phone or on a little index card, right before I go to bed, I will write the five things I know that I’m going to be writing about tomorrow. Just a little sketch so I know what I’m doing. I do that for two reasons. One is, I don’t know if you dictate, Jo, but sometimes when you dictate you’re like, “I have no idea what happens next. I’m lost a little bit,” right? Since there’s no keyboard, because there’s no screen in front of you, you can get a little lost, and having that little note card to give you, “Oh, I can just move on to the next bullet point and keep going,” can be very helpful for that. Also I do that because I want to control something called my daily debris, and your daily debris is what your dreams tend to be made of. The last things you think about and worry about and stress about, and sometimes just think about, for the last half hour before you go to sleep tend to be the things we dream about. If you get in a little dream practice and you practise writing down your dreams when you wake up, you will find that you start to recall your dreams in great and vivid detail. Oftentimes, if the last thing you’re doing before you go to bed is writing down the next things that happen, you’re kind of dreaming your novel in front of you. Just as a tiny little tip, and by the way, this is one of the more out-there, woo-woo tips that I have. I have a lot more normal, basic, boots-on-the-ground tips as well. So that is how I write, and oftentimes my pace is somewhere around 3,000 words an hour dictating on that beach. I’m getting my endorphins, I’m getting my negative ions, I’m getting my relaxation, I’m getting my exercise in at the same time as writing, I would say on average, 5,000 words, 6,000 words a morning before anybody has even started their workday, which can be a real, real help. The great thing about dictation, and the thing I tell everybody with this, is when you’re drafting, your enemy is the delete key, the backspace key. That is the key of the editor, and we don’t want the editor when we’re drafting. We want the creator only to be what we’re focused on. It was so bad for me that I used to have to tape, with double-stick tape, a thumbtack upside down on the backspace key. Jo: On the backspace. That’s a good tip too. Just coming back to dictation, I have actually had a bit of a breakthrough on this, because I’ve tried dictation so many times over the last 15, 20 years I’ve been writing books. I’ve talked to Kevin J. Anderson. I’ve done all the courses. I tried Dragon NaturallySpeaking. I tried everything. Then what has happened, really only in the last couple of months, is— As the AI tools have gotten so much better, what I now do is I just talk to an app on my phone. I used to try and do sentences. I used to try and do punctuation. You know, open quote, “Hello Tom,” comma, close quote, said Jo, full stop, new line. You used to have to do that. Tom: Yes. Jo: Now with the AI tools, you can just say whatever the hell you like. You can do a bit of dialogue, and then I give it to Claude and say, “Can you just tidy this up and add in the punctuation?” Then of course I will go through and edit it. I’m like, “Don’t change anything, just tidy it up.” It is so much easier. So that has actually really helped me, and I’ve started to do that again. Tom: Oh, it’s a game changer for sure. The thing that you said last is the most important. Do not change anything. Do not change any words. Just format it. The only words you’re allowed to change is if I say, “Scratch that,” then you can figure out what I meant to scratch and scratch that. Jo: Oh, I don’t do that. I just leave it all. “Scratch that” I think is from the old dictation days. You could do that. Tom: Yes. Jo: I think now you can just record, and the transcription is saved as it is. So you can just have the plain transcription if you want. Tom: Sure. Jo: This is essentially free now, and you can do it just on an app. Even just on an app on your phone that’s native on your device. You don’t even have to be using an AI service that goes to the cloud if you’re worried about that. I would just encourage people, if you’re like me and you have tried so many times to get into dictation and you just haven’t been able to because you’re more of an intuitive flow creator, this is a new way. So hopefully people will try that. Tom: 100%. Let me just say real quick, because you’re talking about doing it cheaply, for all the people out there that are like, “Well, I don’t want to spend a lot of money,” I use Voice Memos, which, as Jo was talking about, is the absolutely free app that comes with your iPhone. That’s what I record on. I do the transcription with something called MacWhisper, which is a $40 one-time purchase. You never have to pay a monthly fee. It is $40, and it’s the Whisper model, which is one of the best transcription models out there. Then for, like, a nickel, I put it into ChatGPT or Claude and have it clean up the thing. So it could not be cheaper. I just wanted to echo that for you. Jo: Yes, just a game changer, really. Another thing you mention in the book that made me smile was improv, and it made me smile because I have literally booked and cancelled improv classes almost every year for years, because I’m like, “Oh, I really should do that. That sounds like a great idea,” and then I end up cancelling it, because it freaks me out. What can we learn from improv? Why did you put that in the book? Tom: Well, okay, so over the 30 years… I didn’t even mention this, but I told you the last time we were talking that I sold the very first script that I ever wrote, which is a huge blessing. I count it among my blessings all the time. It also was a problem because I was suddenly thrust into Hollywood, and I was thrust into these meetings and these pitch meetings before I was ready to, right? So I had a year or two there where every time I went in to pitch, I just didn’t know how to do it, and every time I had to write an outline, I didn’t really know what they were looking for. I didn’t know exactly what I was doing. The feedback in Hollywood is absolutely brutal. Just absolutely awful. So I had tremendous imposter syndrome and tremendous writer’s block for years and years and years, and I was looking for any way to get out of that. I’ve done stand-up comedy, Jo. I’ve done stand-up comedy at the Comedy Store, the famous Comedy Store on Sunset Boulevard. Jo: Oh. Tom: I’ve done a lot of things to get out of my own head, and I found improv to be one of the best ways to really free up those creative impulses in you and just throw things out there and have faith that they’re going to be great. The rules of improv are amazing for writing. They should be taught when we teach writing, right? The first rule of improv is say yes. Just say yes. Because when you say no, you stop the flow of the scene. You stop the flow of the moment. Yes, absolutely. Second rule, say “yes, and”. Don’t just say yes, because while yes is welcoming more input, it’s not adding anything to the process. So “yes, and”. Always be iterating forward, right? Third rule of improv, make statements. Put your flag in the sand and declare things, right? Create things. Do not equivocate. State things. Make things. You can always change it later. It’s not a big deal. By the way, you can’t always change things later in improv, but you can in writing, so I’m using this specifically that way. Number four, be specific, right? Clarity, specificity, detail, those are the things that our creative mind grabs onto and iterates off of. If you’re generic and bland, your writing is going to wither and die when you’re trying to do it. Rule five is the here and now. Be present. Be here. Don’t be writing backstory when you should be writing what the characters are feeling and experiencing right here in this moment. Be here now. Rule six, establish a location. A little less important for writers. That’s really for people that are trying to get an audience to imagine the space around them. But still, it fits for that as well, right? Don’t do the white room. Make sure that you’ve described where you are. What does it smell like? What does it feel like? What is the weather like? Improv rule number seven, change, change, change. Constantly be looking for the thing to change. How many novels have you read where you just wish people would get on with it and get to the next thing that happens? Oh my God, I would love that. Eight is play the relationship. Bring it back to character. Bring it back to the relationship between these people, because that is the great stuff. Then nine, which is, there are no mistakes, only opportunities, which is less a rule and more of a motto. There are no mistakes, only opportunities. Imagine if you went to your next writing session with that firmly in your mind, and you believed that there are no mistakes, only opportunities. How much more free-flowing would your writing be? Absolutely amazing. Jo: Yes, I’m going to have to just book another improv class. Tom: You’re going to book a class, and you’re going to fricking take it, all right? I will be your accountability partner here. Jo: It does make me laugh though, because every time I hear somebody like you say this stuff, I’m like, “Yes, I’m going to go do it. Yes, and I’m going to do it.” So you never know, but just to encourage people, I feel like there’s a lot of things there that can help. The other thing you have in the book, which I thought was interesting, is a chapter on amateurs and pros. Steven Pressfield’s book, Turning Pro, is a book I often reread, and of course, he’s come out of screenwriting as well. So I thought that was an interesting parallel, that you have it too. So give us a few of the differences that you think between amateurs and pros, and again, why include that? Tom: For me there’s no better praise word that I use than pro. I’m like, “Oh, that’s a pro right there. Look at that. Did you read that? That’s amazing. Oh, man, that’s a real pro.” Which is weird because I love the word amateur. You’re doing it for the love of it, right? Whereas pro is you’re professing it. It’s a different thing. When you really think about it, an amateur, to do it for the love of it, that’s a very internal thing, right? That’s a very, almost self-seeking thing. Whereas a professional, a person that’s professing, or what I call my writing as a vocation, so to vocate, to say, to get those things out, is a very sharing, a very other-centred experience. So I think it’s a really good way to look at the process. I think amateurs, for the most part, are paranoid about their ideas. They’re very, very precious about their ideas, and they hide them. They’re like Sméagol or Gollum. “My precious, my precious. I have this and I can’t share it.” Pros are telling people their ideas all the time, right? They are sharing their ideas and getting feedback from other pros. “Oh, wow, that’s really great. Hey, have you ever thought about this?” And boom, yep, it goes right in there. You know, Oscar Wilde said, “Oh, I wish I’d thought of that.” And someone said, “Don’t worry, Oscar, you will.” We steal, right? But we don’t really steal. We share. We share, and when a person shares back with us, we take it, we incorporate it, we put it into our process. Ideas that are held and kept in the dark often die, and ideas that are shared and talked about often blossom and bloom. Another thing—amateurs usually gild the first draft. They spend so much time just perfecting that first draft. I don’t know about you, but I fell prey to this. In my early career, the number of times I wrote the first act of my screenplay versus the number of times I wrote the third act of the screenplay had to be 10 or 20 to one. I just wanted to get it perfect before I moved on to the next section. Perfection, oh my God, what a creativity-draining trap is the word perfection. Pros lay down the draft fast, and they put their faith in the rewrite. They put their faith in getting a good enough draft that they can see where it is, and they can read it and get a full view of the entire story. Another one—amateurs often love what they wrote. Now, this one I like about amateurs. I like the fact that you write something and you read it, and you don’t think, “Oh, God, I’ve got a lot of work to do here.” Pros, we almost never reach a place of absolute love, right? Sometimes we do. But oftentimes, the critic, who we have a good relationship with because we’re professionals, is going to tell us, “You know we can do better here, right?” Was it da Vinci who said… or Michelangelo… “A great artist never finished, only abandoned.” Or was it Picasso? I can’t remember. So an artist said that, and I think that’s absolutely true for professionals. We’re always trying to improve things just a little bit, and that could be a trap for the pros, right? Sometimes we don’t get our work out as early as we should be getting it out because we’re not quite ready to let go of it yet. Then last but not least, amateurs treat a major change like it’s a death sentence. Whereas pros look at a big idea that’s going to change a lot of what we just wrote as, “Oh, wow, this is fantastic. What a great opportunity.” Because we’re not precious about what we’ve written as much as we are looking forward to what this can be. Make sense? Jo: I think it’s a really interesting way to think about things. As you were talking, another difference, I think, coming back to money, is amateurs are maybe not even intending to make any money with their book. There is absolutely nothing wrong with writing a book because you want to write a book, and you love writing, and you just want to hold your book in your hand and say, “I made this.” To me, the amateur doing it for the love of it is where I think a lot of us perhaps should be. That should be the thing. If you’re a professional, there does have to be some aspect of business. As you say, it needs to go out to somebody else. It needs to get to a certain professional point and be paid for. So I think that is a difference, and these things can shape decisions around everything, not just the craft, but also the marketing and your brand and everything really. Tom: Yes, obviously you are correct in the standard definition of amateur and pro. I’m really talking about amateurs versus pros in terms of mindset, and that’s a very different thing. You could do exactly what you’re talking about. “I’m just writing this for me. I don’t know if anybody in the world except me wants to read this, but I’m going to write it.” You can still write it as a professional. You can still take a professional mindset, right? With embracing major change, with not being so precious with that first draft, with sharing the idea and getting feedback. All of those things that pros do, you can do, and write something that is purely for the love of it, and you have no commercial prospects for this whatsoever. You can still do that and be a professional in the mindset sense, and that’s really where I focus. That’s the key to me. If you are writing because you love it, if you are writing because you want to make a million dollars, I’m agnostic as far as that goes. I say the reasons that you write are yours, and whatever they are, that’s fantastic. Just don’t rule out the possibility that someone else might want to read and might fall in love with this amazing thing that you’re not sure you want to send to another soul, right? Share of yourself with the world, and the world gets richer. That’s what I believe. Jo: Fantastic. So where can people find you and your books online? Tom: I’m on Amazon. My spy thrillers are T.D. Donnelly. You can find me at TDDonnelly.com. All my stuff will be at TDDonnelly.com. If you’re looking specifically for Superdraft, because we have to separate our audiences, blah, blah, blah, Thomas Dean Donnelly is my full screenwriting name. Thomas Dean Donnelly is where you can find Superdraft on Amazon. Jo: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Tom. That was great. Tom: I always have a great time talking to you, Jo. Thank you so much.The post The Creator And The Critic: How To Fix Your Writing Process With T.D. Donnelly first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you sharpen your craft when the self-critical voice gets louder the more you learn? What kinds of literary devices might enhance your prose? And how do you write an ending that pays off the promise you made to your reader? Amy Jones shares her writing tips after 15 years of teaching storytelling. In the intro, Kindle Unlimited rebranded as Kindle+, How to Market a Book Fourth Edition, and AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinars. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Amy Jones is a writer, lecturer, and researcher who has designed courses and lectured for over a decade on literature, linguistics, and the craft of storytelling. She is the author of multiple books on writing craft, and today we’re talking about The Story Book: Plot, Character, Setting, Genre, Narrative and Literary Devices. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why writing is like being an athlete, and why struggle is a good sign The differences between academic writing and writing for a commercial audience Endings, killing your darlings, and not underestimating your reader Why Dickens could waffle and modern writers can’t What Gen Z storytellers on TikTok can teach conventional fiction writers Literary devices as a toolkit, and why reading aloud matters in a world of audiobooks You can find Amy at WoodenBooks.com. Transcript of the interview with Amy Jones Jo: Amy Jones is a writer, lecturer, and researcher who has designed courses and lectured for over a decade on literature, linguistics, and the craft of storytelling. She is the author of multiple books on writing craft, and today we’re talking about The Story Book: Plot, Character, Setting, Genre, Narrative and Literary Devices. So welcome to the show, Amy. Amy: Hi. Thanks, Jo. Thank you for having me. Jo: Oh, lots to talk about. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Amy: Okay. So, I grew up in Somerset, which is where I live again now. There’s a strong literary history here, I think. I went to primary school in Nether Stowey, and was introduced to Samuel Taylor Coleridge very young. So I think that’s had a strong effect on my interest in writing, which has really always been there. As soon as I finished my undergraduate degree, I went into teaching, which has now been about 15 years. As you said, I’ve taught across A level and then undergrad. I started a course for undergraduates with a very good friend of mine with the University of Plymouth, and covered literature, linguistics, creative writing. So I have been a bit of a jack-of-all-trades in the writing world, and loved it. My connection with writing has really been… it’s a lovely opportunity for me to download all of that teaching knowledge that I’ve had over these years. I was in touch with John Martineau, who is my publisher at Wooden Books, and he was interested in creating a series of storybooks, or story writing books. I was originally starting that with that friend, my good friend Emma Craigie, who is a writer. But she had other projects in mind, so the six small books and then the large Story Book all came to me, which has just been a delight. So it’s been one a year for the last seven, eight years, and that has culminated in The Story Book now. Jo: Yes. So we’ll come back to The Story Book in a minute. In terms of your writing history, has it all been non-fiction, or do you also write fiction? Amy: I do write fiction, but I don’t tend to put it out there. I find the more that I have expertise in the craft of storytelling, the more I’m self-critical of my own work. Jo: Oh. Amy: I’m a really big fan of Horace, and especially the Ars Poetica, and he has a wonderful line in there about how he considers himself to be a whetstone, upon which, largely, fiction writers sharpen their craft. So I use that model for myself. I spend a lot of time these days—as well as academia, which we’ll talk about—doing consultancy work for scriptwriting, media companies, but also novels and fiction at the same time. So that’s where I’ve found myself. Jo: I think that’s really interesting, because that whetstone idea, and if people don’t know, that’s W-H-E-T-stone, right? Where you can use it to sharpen a knife. So essentially you’re helping other people sharpen their skills. I actually really love that metaphor. I guess essentially you’re a teacher, but also a form of editor in that way. That is a role that editors play too, isn’t it? Amy: Exactly, yes. It is a gorgeous quote, and that text is one that I come back to time and time again if I’m ever in doubt about my feedback. Horace is my guy. Yes, I especially love that whetstone metaphor. Jo: That’s great. It’s interesting. You mention there the self-critical thing, in terms of the more you learn, the more self-critical you become. So how do you balance that for your students then? Because I know I recognise that, and I’m sure many people listening also recognise that. It’s like you see your flaws more easily. Amy: Yes, exactly, which is very valuable. I think what a lot of creative writers are looking for, in my experience, is someone to be that kind of critical friend. You never want to rip somebody to pieces, but if you can put your finger on the one particular element which is bringing their story down, or which they haven’t recognised as an integral part which they need to blow up a little bit more, it’s a wonderful symbiotic relationship between that role and the writer themselves. Jo: How do you encourage writers who want to publish more of their work? How do you encourage them past that point? Because let’s face it, the manuscript is never finished, just abandoned, right? Whoever said that. I mean, that’s true of so much of art. How do you help other people get over that critical voice? Amy: Mm, yes, the self-critical voice. I think to say, “Just get it down. Get it down.” It’s your idea, it’s your baby, and then use the critical friend. I think it’s hard to entirely do that on your own, because we know that old adage of the need to kill your darlings, and a big part of my job is building that relationship with writers or creatives, to the point where it’s very easy to be defensive of elements of your story that you feel are integral or you’re really attached to. If you have an outside voice which says, “I understand, and these are your great strengths, but this one thing just isn’t working,” that can be really valuable to the final piece. I know the critical voice is always there when you’re creating, but—I’ve just said I’m a victim of it myself—as much as possible to ignore it, I think, and push through. I think a lot of the time I find myself saying… people often think that writing should be easy, but it’s not. It’s like being an athlete. You may be, I don’t know, naturally flexible and therefore a good gymnast, but if you don’t train, and you don’t know that mistakes are a really positive thing that will eventually lead to you improving your performance, then it’s not going to get there. So I always say struggle is good. If you find you’re struggling and you’re wrestling with that critical element, that’s a good sign. Just push through it, keep doing it. Let the mistake be there, and then you can come back and revisit it, or someone will help you to address it. That’s my take. Jo: I’m glad you said that. I mean, this whole “think it should be easy” thing. I feel like some people, as you say, they think it should be easy, and if it’s not easy, then they think they’re doing it wrong. Whereas what we’re basically saying is— Writing is hard. Writing a book is really, really hard. It’s hard work, and people are like, “Oh, well, if it’s not easy, maybe I shouldn’t be doing this.” I’m like, yes, it’s good work, but it is work. I mean, there’s these moments of happy flow or whatever, but to be honest, they’re quite few and far between in my experience. Amy: Yes, exactly. There’s a lot of walking and thinking on your own, which is part of that training. Again, it’s that athlete metaphor, with the very best writers making writing look easy. I’ve written in the introduction to this book that there is that common trick that Truman Capote used to say a lot, which was that he just started. He didn’t train. Jo: Mm-hmm. Amy: Which is part of an illusion that perhaps writers like to build around themselves. Truman Capote definitely did train, partly through reading a lot, and getting things wrong. We see the best athletes at the Olympics, and they look fantastic. We see the best writers in their final products, and we don’t see the struggle, and that’s part of the skill. The struggle is there. It’s just silent. Jo: Yes, and we’re comparing our first draft to somebody’s finished, edited, complete book. So it is really hard. Then I also wanted to talk to you about the academic side. So you’re working in academia. You’re working on a PhD in English. I recently finished a master’s, and I was like, oh, my goodness, this wrestling with academic writing, it’s very, very different to commercial mainstream writing. Now, I would say that The Story Book and your books on craft are pretty, well, literary and verging on academic, but still are commercial, right? There aren’t footnotes on every page and all of that kind of thing. What do you find are the main differences between academic writing and writing in a more commercial way? Amy: Hmm. In some ways, the similarities, I think, are stronger than the differences, but the differences are where we hit a wall sometimes. I think academic writing is still storytelling. I think academic writing does suffer a lot from people feeling like they have to sound very clever. I think it shouldn’t be inaccessible. I’m a big fan of the plain English society, in that sense. So, yes. I have got two excellent supervisors who are always telling me to be clearer, to be more concise, which is just how you want to be in storytelling. I think the two big differences for me when I’m doing academic writing is I have to slightly dial down the… I love playing with language, as I’m sure we’ll discuss later. I really like, especially, sounds within language. So I do run away with the occasional whimsical sentence, which I have to then come back and edit. I’m just a real sucker for alliteration, and that doesn’t necessarily have a place there. Also, like you say, it’s the footnoting, it’s the referencing. The Story Book is academic in that it draws on an awful lot of sources, but I’m not engaging in critical argument in the same way that academia requires. Which is a joy in many ways when you’re writing like that, actually. Jo: I think the other thing I found sort of annoying, as someone who writes primarily commercially, for being read, is that these essays that I spent so long on have an audience of one. Well, I was one, I suppose, and then my professor was the other one. Obviously academics aim to get published in some way, but the readership is so much smaller, whereas obviously with The Story Book it’s going to be read by far more people. So how do you deal with that in your head, around who’s the audience? Amy: Yes, that’s a really good question. The academia, mine is very niche. My PhD is on, how do I explain it? The Welsh March, the English-Welsh borders in the medieval period, and how the myths surrounding that went from marvels and wonders to more chivalric acts. So that is a very niche audience of medieval Celtic scholars, essentially. So I can rely on the fact that some of the references I make, they’re going to be very, very familiar with. Whereas with The Story Book, because I’m trying to cater to scriptwriters, even social media creators, there’s a page in there, and poets with the different literary devices, it is broad. It also means that I can draw on far more variety. There’s quite a lot of classical scholarship in there, but there’s also Back to the Future, and that’s alongside Jane Eyre. I have a page on chiasmus, and that has a quote from Macbeth, and then a quote from Snoop Dogg in it. So the range is far wider, and I’ve tried to go for a lot of popular culture alongside the classical. Obviously academia, especially my particular field, is not… I couldn’t bring Snoop Dogg into my medieval essay. Jo: I’ll try. Well, I guess there’s… Amy: I’m not sure how that will go. Jo: Yes, I guess on the commercial side also, there’s the kind of permissions that you need for a commercial project, versus when you’re quoting things for an academic essay that’s not necessarily being published anywhere. It’s quite different. The other thing I found was that I never really found a moment of flow when I was writing essays. I was always questioning what I was claiming or what I was trying to say, and then trying to support that with other things. So it was very stoppy-starty, versus when I’m writing, say, a nonfiction book, even on topics I know really well, I can crank through thousands of words, whereas the academic writing, it’s so dense. That’s really interesting. Amy: Yes, and especially with master’s and PhDs, you’re almost formulating your ideas as you go, because they are these extended pieces of writing. So whereas if you have a plot in mind as you’re writing and you know you need to get from A to B, you can get into the flow. Although I have found that the approach in the academic writing that has really worked for me has been to know my next step, and then to just dump every single piece of information I could possibly need, every reference, every person, onto a Word document, and then I can just pull from it and write as I go. Although it’s not for the whole piece. I get temporary flow from, yes, a big vat of research before I start. That does help. Jo: Yes, whereas I also love the research. I feel like the research… You must love research, because The Story Book is just packed with amazing stuff. So does your research process differ between your PhD and this book, for example? Amy: Yes. I mean, in that I know how many page spreads I have with the Wooden Books and with The Story Book. So I know broadly what my limits are, and then I do love research. I will just go down into a lovely big hole of research for a couple of days, and put in all the potential quotes I could use. I do have, from that teaching and across those different fields, quite a large bank of things in my head. But discovering new things is a huge joy. So yes, it’s been a lovely thing to put together, actually. It’s really brought me into more texts that aren’t necessarily my genre. I have always been a big fan of Gothic literature, but never too heavily into sci-fi, but I’ve dabbled in that for some of this research too. So yes, it’s gorgeous. Jo: So much fun. Right. Well, The Story Book itself goes into every element of the writing craft. It is such a compendium, I guess, and you also teach these things with students. So we can’t get into everything, but I wondered— What are the elements that you find are common issues with new writers, and any sort of tips for them? Amy: Yes. Again, that’s a really lovely question, because it depends on the individual, but there are a few things that I find are my hills to die on, I suppose. One is endings. That is a real point of fixation for me, because especially these days—and I see it not just in written fiction, but also in a lot of modern media and film—people tend to fall in love with a pitch or an idea or a concept, and then begin writing it, and then slightly panic and not know where the ending is. The ending is, to me, almost the promise that you make to your reader or to your audience, that which pays for their commitment. You are going to give them a payoff. So I am always saying, “Okay, how are we going to wrap this up in a way that feels like it’s a whole cohesive piece, so that we’re not falling down at the ending?” So for new writers, I think really thinking about your ending. Of course, come up with a lovely concept and do fall in love with your idea, but think about how you’re going to actually wrap that up in a satisfying way. I have a whole section on great endings in here, too. As I mentioned earlier, killing your darlings, I think, is a common issue for new writers. Just getting attached to certain characters, or even certain lengthy descriptions, and having to accept that they need to be cut. I think sometimes just underestimating the reader is a common mistake. I’m interested in the idea of the death of the author, and the idea that once you’ve written something, it doesn’t actually belong to you anymore, and people are going to make of it what they will, and you have to accept that. That’s part of why people love reading so much. It’s a subjective experience. So not trying to spoon-feed your own agenda too heavily, but just weaving the story and telling it as best you possibly can. I think those are my top three. So endings, killing your darlings, and not to underestimate your reader. Jo: Yes, I feel like readers are much more sophisticated now. I love James Michener. I used to read a lot of James Michener when I was younger, as a teenager, back in the ’80s and ’90s, and I went back to read one more recently, The Source, which was one of my favourite ones, about Israel. I was quite shocked by the writing and some of the references. I just had not remembered a lot of that style that obviously he’d been writing decades before, and so it was quite dated, and it was quite different.So that happens, doesn’t it? The way readers have changed and the way modern readers are, I think we do have to be aware of that. For example, if you’re writing for people who love detective fiction, you have to be blooming good to stop them just being bored. Amy: Yes. Yes, exactly. I think keeping people’s attention is undoubtedly much, much more challenging these days. There’s an exercise I used to do with students, which was to give them a sentence from a Dickens novel and to try and make it a sentence which would be applicable today. Dickens had the luxury of people who weren’t distracted by televisions and mobile phones and this fast-paced world that we live in, so he could have a good old waffle in his sentences. So yes, I think recognising that is really important. I’m a big fan of more minimalist writers, like Cormac McCarthy. I really love how pared back a lot of his writing is. And yes, for crime, Raymond Chandler is a big influence for me, I think. He’s really good at keeping things minimal and writing really good dialogue, too. Jo: Yes, just on Dickens, didn’t Dickens write a lot of serials for newspapers and was paid by word count? Amy: Yes. Yes, exactly. Jo: So… Amy: That is very convenient, isn’t it? Jo: That explains it. I mean, people are like, “Why is it so long?” And it’s like, well, it wasn’t so long. It was in the paper every week or whatever, and then put together into books later. When people use older comparison titles for more modern books, it just doesn’t make sense, right? Because it’s just a very different scenario. Amy: Exactly, yes. I mean, Dickens was very canny in that sense. Jo: Yes, he’s like, “Make more money by really long sentences.” Amy: Yes, but as you say, it’s not going to work in this kind of market, unfortunately. I think he was arguably the first writer to go viral, right? I’m trying to remember which one it was. I think The Old Curiosity Shop was one of the first novels which caused fights when the next serial came out. I think that’s the right one. When the next episode, as it were, came out, and it was transported over to America, there were fights at the port to access the next one. So there are common links in terms of going viral, I suppose. But, yes, he had the luxury of much more time. Jo: Yes, much more. Less competition as well. Amy: Exactly. Jo: No, it’s crazy. I mean, serial fiction is a thing again. Certainly in Asia, obviously the serial fiction on people’s phones is huge, and starting to come into the West, I think. Just then coming back to tips, you’ve done a few for new writers, but then a lot of people listening have a lot of books. I have nearly 50 books, and there’s people listening who have a lot more than that. So there’s lots of us who’ve been doing this for decades, but we still want to get better. We’re always looking to improve our craft. I was quite delighted going through your book and going, “Oh my goodness, I just haven’t even heard of that,” which is crazy. So how can more mature writers improve, or even figure out where to improve? Amy: Mm. Yes. I think the key is knowing what you’re good at, and also maybe recognising your own tropes as well. I have a friend who writes screenplays, and she was saying to me the other day, “I just can’t stop writing about old ladies. They’re always the central character, and I need to break out of that habit.” So maybe experimenting in that sense. I think just read, read, read, watch, watch, watch. Some of this book has little exercises at the back to help with playing with new things and experimenting, and, again, knowing that they’re not always going to work. But just trying it on, I guess, like trying on a different outfit. Some things are going to work with your personal style, and some aren’t. I’m very annoying to, for example, watch films with, because I will apply all of this literary analysis, and my poor partner sits next to me while I’m saying, “Oh, well, they haven’t done this inciting incident very quickly,” or, “That wasn’t a very convincingly developed character, far too static.” So I think allowing yourself to read not just things which are notoriously good, but perhaps things which are not so good, and practising that evaluation, which then leads to the self-evaluation, is a really good exercise. I think also reading classics again. Horace is my big one, but there is so much classical writing on writing. Also, in some of the consultancy work I’ve been doing recently, I’ve been working with a lot of people who are interested in storytelling online, for example. I’ve been really gratified to see that there’s a big swing back towards storytelling in that medium. There’s also a lot of criticism, or kind of snobbery, about it. But the younger generation, these Gen Zers, are telling stories in some quite interesting and innovative ways. In a lot of ways, they’re more multimodal, almost right back to the very origins of storytelling. So I think even just keeping an eye on how the younger generation are modifying storytelling for their own usage is also really interesting. It’s something I’d avoided for years, but I’ve increasingly found myself, A, giving feedback in that world, and B, appreciating it a little bit more too. Jo: Do you mean TikTok, for example? Amy: Yes. Which is odd, because I really don’t use social media myself. I’m not a big poster of things, but I haunt the internet. I think watching a TikTok video or an Instagram post, or even YouTube Shorts, is really interesting, because I can apply a lot of classical literary ideas to these things, but you can also see how they’re developing and moving storytelling forward. So yes, reading backwards, but also looking at the next generation. They are doing some interesting things. It’s a mixed bag, obviously. Jo: Yes. Well, I almost feel like… I went to a reunion back at Oxford earlier this year, and there were a load of us 50-year-olds. We went to one of the clubs that we used to go to back in the day, and we were there in one of these clubs, and all the students had just come back from one of the terms, whatever it was. We just had this moment of looking over and going, “This is not our place anymore. What are we doing here?” Just that feeling of “this is not my place”, that is how I feel about TikTok. Maybe we all just have our own space as well. So you’re kind of outside looking in, and you’re an academic and a researcher. I feel like for myself, as a commercial writer, I just cannot do that. I just can’t be on it. I can’t speak the language, and I can’t seem to use it myself. Amy: No, I’m exactly the same. And I’m not saying that everyone should be hopping on and getting a TikTok account. I don’t think that’s the way forward. Jo: Excellent. Amy: But I do think just watching them, and almost understanding that younger generation, is really interesting to me. Again, I certainly wouldn’t advocate for that being necessary. Jo: Oh, good. Yes, everyone’s relaxing now. Amy: Goodness me. I mean, I don’t do it myself, as I say, but just watching how they’re creating things. I think they’re getting quite good at telling stories in a very concise way, and almost, yes, going beyond the word. I have this interesting theory, as I mentioned, which is that it’s taking us back to the very origins of storytelling, sitting around a campfire. Much more sound, much more visual. Ad I think that can pull through into some more conventional fiction. Writers could perhaps pull through some of those examples. We’re not trying to emulate it, but it’s just as valuable, I think, as looking backwards. Jo: Yes, and then coming to the part of the book on literary devices, I feel like… when I was reading that section, I was like, “Oh, yes, I know what that is. I just didn’t know that I would call it a literary device.” So can you go through a few things that you like in terms of literary devices? Amy: Yes. They’re so fun. I think the wonderful thing about storytelling in all forms is it’s half science and half art, and the literary devices are the really lovely, playful, artistic stuff where you can really show your true self. There’s a quote I think I use from Samuel Taylor Coleridge, in a letter to Wordsworth, where he says that writing is about the truth of nature, but it’s also the power of giving the interest of novelty by modifying the colours of the imagination. So literary devices allow you to give everyday objects a new, novel twist. I think being playful with things like syntax. So that chiasmus example I gave earlier is the Snoop Dogg, with your mind on your money and your money on your mind. But also “fair is foul and foul is fair” in Macbeth. So yes, playing with syntax, using things like anastrophe, where you change the word order in a sentence, or playing with sound. As I mentioned, that’s something I’m really interested in. I sometimes do workshops where I encourage people to try and tell a well-known story just through sounds, and get people re-enacting the Titanic, for example, just through sound effects, and then people have to guess them. I think, like you mentioned, a large part of the literary devices is they’re things that you may quite happily use regularly, or you come across and appreciate, and it’s quite nice to give them that little label and to understand the history of them and the effect they can have. So again, I would certainly not suggest that everyone tries to jam in as many literary devices as they possibly can in their writing. It’s more about realising what you already know, and hopefully then putting that within your toolkit as a writer, to deploy as and when you think you want to add that little bit of novelty. Modifying the colours of imagination, again, to come back to Coleridge. Jo: Yes, it’s interesting. That sound thing, I feel, has changed a lot over the last, I guess, 10 years, but more so the last five years. A lot of books have moved into audio, and I certainly have re-edited some books, and now I do a lot more of my own audiobooks. Sometimes when you’re reading in your head, you don’t notice the sounds. You almost don’t notice repeated sounds on a page. While you might notice repeated words, you don’t notice repeated sounds until you say them aloud. So when a book is an audiobook, some things really stand out that they don’t on the page. Like the word “said”. We’re always told, “Oh, just use said. You don’t use a whole load of other words.” But in an audiobook, it sounds awful to just say “said” all the time, because it’s a repeated word. So have you noticed things changing? I guess you mentioned the multimodal, but— Have you noticed things changing for the audio space? Amy: Yes. And again, that is to come back to that advice for new writers. Reading aloud is a piece of advice we always give people. It’s not one that I necessarily always do myself, though it’s a really good way of working out the sound of your piece. We live in a world of audiobooks where people might be listening while they’re pottering around, doing something else. That’s the thing that can really catch people’s attention. So yes, I think people are slightly modifying for that. I just listened to the new Rachel Cusk book, actually, while I was trying to work on something else. I was distracting myself, and she certainly seems to have modified some of that. She’s read it herself as well. I think when it’s your own work and you’re reading it aloud, as you mentioned, you notice these things a lot more. I’m noticing it a little bit, but not a huge amount. I wonder if that’s something that we need to pay a little bit more attention to as writers, actually. It’s an interesting point. A little bit, I guess, is my answer, but not as much as perhaps we can. I’m racking my brains for any other contemporary examples which do it really well. Jo: I think there’s a contemporary example of an audiobook that’s done really well. It’s zombie. World War Zed, or World War Z, by Max Brooks, which is an oral history of the zombie war. People might have seen the movie with Brad Pitt, but the book is excellent. I saw the movie, then I read the book, read it in my head on a Kindle, and then I listened to the audiobook. The audiobook is, I think, the perfect way, because it’s an oral history, and every chapter is a different character from a different country. So a Japanese survivor, and then, say, a British survivor or whatever. To me it’s meant to be an audiobook. It’s one of those kinds of experiences. So to have these ideas that the book is presented in different forms for different experiences, I think is quite wonderful. Amy: Mm. You’ve just reminded me, there is a really gorgeous BBC, I think it’s 1960s, adaptation of Ray Bradbury’s There Will Come Soft Rains, which is an incredible dystopian short story. Similarly, it’s naturally designed for sound effects, and especially the fact that it’s a 1960s recording really adds to it. Sorry, I can’t remember what your original question was. I was really excited to talk about Ray Bradbury. Jo: No, it’s all good. Well, then— Is The Story Book in audio? Amy: No, it’s not, but that’s a really good question, because it would work very well for that format, I think. Although, because The Story Book is designed to be concise, there are a lot of quite complex ideas which are represented in diagrams instead, which allows you to get that idea across in a really lovely visual format. So an audiobook would require some kind of little description of those diagrams. But, yes, especially those literary devices would work. That’s a good idea. Thanks, Jo. I’m writing that down. Jo: Yes. Write that down. Well, I think any audiobook can also be some kind of adaptation, so adapted for audio. Also, I’m sure you’ve seen this on any of the audio apps, you can usually attach a PDF for any things that you refer to in the text. I think, obviously we’re all listeners here on this show, there’s a lot of people listening, and it is one of the things that many of us audio-first people do. We want to listen to books, and then we might buy it in other formats as well. There’s evidence to show that a lot of audio listeners also buy another format. So I think it’s definitely something to suggest. Amy: Mm. Yes. I’ll be emailing my publisher after this. Jo: About that. I might mention it too. Amy: Thanks, Jo. That would be great. Jo: Well, just coming back to those highly illustrated visual elements, and you mentioned earlier that you had page spreads that made it clear what your word count would be. So how much were you involved in the book design as the writer? Did you have to write differently in order to allow for those visual elements? Amy: Yes. John Martineau and Steven Parsons—so John is my publisher and Steven is the editor—are really very good at involving you in those kinds of decisions, and also really good at turning things into diagrams. So every now and again, they would turn something I’ve written into a diagram and then bounce it back to me to double check, just to make sure it’s conveying what I needed it to, and yes, they largely do. As I say, in my PhD I’m doing a lot of work with maps, to try and visualise some of the detailed patterns that I’m seeing, which is helping me to convey those ideas more clearly. It’s the same kind of thing, really. Especially in the later books, we got quite into… there are some lovely linoprints and hand sketches in there, which I’m a big fan of. So the design of it has been a group project, and it’s come together really nicely, actually. Jo: So did that make it a much longer experience? If you were writing a chapter and then iterating with the diagrams, how long was that sort of process? Amy: These guys are relatively pacey, actually. And of course I overwrite tremendously, and then we go through an editing process to make it as concise as possible, because, as you say, there is an awful lot in there, because it’s trying to cater for a lot of audiences with a lot of exercises. So yes, I think it was a book a year for the smaller books, and then The Story Book meant that we reviewed all of those smaller books. I have put in some new material as well, and taken out some things which maybe I felt weren’t as relevant anymore. So it’s been a relatively quick process. I know in total I think we’ve been about eight years, but it’s felt fast. Jo: Well, that’s great. It’s good you also have that ongoing relationship, because I feel like a lot of people have different relationships with their publishers. Sometimes it’s fantastic, and sometimes people are in massive publishing houses, whereas you’re with a small publishing house, right? Amy: Yes. Yes, exactly, which is nice, because it’s been a consistent relationship all the way through, and quite an easy dialogue. That is a real privilege. Jo: Mm. Yes. Just so people know, I’m going to have John hopefully on the show to talk about the publishing side, because I have a small publishing press, and other people listening also, many of us run our own publishing company, so we’re interested in that side as well. So, for listeners, that will come along at some point. But in the meantime— Where can people find you and your books online? Amy: Well, having advocated looking at modern storytelling, I’m very anonymous online. The easiest way to find me is through my publisher, so that’s Wooden Books. I think it’s just woodenbooks.com, and they will pass any kind of direct contact or requests on to me. The books are available in all good bookstores, online and on the high street. Jo: Brilliant. So thanks so much for your time, Amy. That was great. Amy: Thank you so much, Jo. It’s been a pleasure.The post Writing Endings, Using Literary Devices, And Tips From The Story Book With Amy Jones first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you move from the starving artist mindset to becoming a creator CEO with multiple streams of income? And how can you get traction on Substack if you’re starting from zero? Amy Suto shares her tips as a former Hollywood TV writer turned author, Substack creator, and ghostwriter. In the intro, Novel November with ProWritingAid; Book Marketing in a Changing World [ALLi Podcast with me and Orna Ross]; Navigating tough times in indie publishing [Wish I’d Known Then]; watch out for fake agent emails [Write Beware]; AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinars for beginners and advanced. Today’s show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Amy Suto is a former Hollywood TV writer and the bestselling author of books around freelance writing, as well as romance, fantasy, and detective fiction. She’s also a ghostwriter and a top 25 ranked Substack creator. Her books include Write for Money and Power. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How to take back power when your dreams are in the hands of gatekeepers Moving from the starving artist mindset to creator CEO The income flywheel of freelancing, a paid newsletter, and book royalties How serialising fiction on Substack can build true fans and supercharge pre-orders Getting traction on Substack, and how to manage comments and Notes Using AI tools like a scalpel, and how to move past the fear of backlash You can find Amy on her Substacks, Make Writing Your Job and Sutoscience. Transcript of the interview with Amy Suto Jo: Amy Suto is a former Hollywood TV writer and the bestselling author of books around freelance writing, as well as romance, fantasy, and detective fiction. She’s also a ghostwriter and a top 25 ranked Substack creator. So welcome to the show, Amy. Amy: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here. Jo: Yes, lots to talk about. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Amy: So I came up in Hollywood as a TV writer, and I was climbing my way up the ladder, starting as an assistant, working in Los Angeles, and then eventually, finally got to start to write episodes of TV. When I hit what I thought was my peak, I was working with a CIA agent on a spy show. It was literally my dream, to be able to pick his brain about all the conspiracies that were actually true and be able to write TV around that. I found myself a little bit disillusioned with the way the system was running. I found that I really wanted to spend more time writing my own original work instead of being work for hire on other people’s shows. So when 2020 happened and everything shut down, I ended up being able to travel the world, ghostwrite memoirs for Olympians and CEOs, and have some crazy experiences as a digital nomad, which then inspired my first fiction book, The Nomad Detective. From there I continued writing novels and also non-fiction books about my experience as a freelance writer, to help other authors and writers figure out how to have this balance of both being able to pay the bills as a writer while also having creative freedom to put together your own work. Jo: I love that. I guess just to address the dream—so you hit this dream of Hollywood TV writing, which of course for some people, that’s their dream and they never got there, and then you left it all. I mean, the strength to walk away from that. So if people have that dream, or there’s the dream of the eight-figure movie deal for a novelist and all this. So can dreams end up not be the thing we really want, I guess? Amy: This is a great question, and I think that the thing that I was running into is that I was putting my dreams in the hands of gatekeepers. I think that when you hand over that power, then suddenly you are left without agency and you are finding yourself working for free or doing work for producers that maybe you didn’t sign up for. People are dangling your dreams in front of you to get you to do what they want you to do. That was a little bit of what I was beginning to experience, and seeing in other writers that I was talking to in the industry. So I knew that I wanted to take back that power for myself. I also love books. Writing novels is something that is very close to my heart and part of my own dream as a writer as well. So when 2020 was happening and everything was shutting down and the writers’ room that I was in went to a Zoom room, I thought, “This is a perfect opportunity for me to explore some of these other areas of writing.” So basically there is this experience that I was having of remembering all of these novelists who started off as journalists, and they started off as journalists because some of the best inspiration for fiction is actually in non-fiction. When I was starting to moonlight as a memoir ghostwriter in between projects in Hollywood, I found myself completely captivated by working with these incredible clients who’ve had lives that were beyond anything I could have ever imagined. So my work as a memoir ghostwriter ended up feeding my creative work, not only being able to pay the bills with these really cool projects, but also being able to interview people about their lives and being able to understand humanity through a completely different lens. I never would have had the experience to get flown out to Vienna and sit down with an entrepreneur who had changed the direction of the way that technology had been built in his industry, and be able to ask questions about what it was really like to be these types of people and to be in their lives and to grow up in Austria or Singapore. So I think that memoir ghostwriting ended up being the perfect primer for me to continue to develop my work as a fiction writer, because I was able to meet so many different people I never would have had the opportunity to meet or work with or ask questions of before. Jo: Yes, I love this empowered attitude to making your own career. In fact, when you pitched me—and I’ve told you this, but for people listening—I had already bought your book, Write for Money and Power, and the reason I had bought it is, obviously, I’m a 20-year writer at this point, but it was your use of the word power. I have not seen another writing book that says Write for Money and Power: The Anti-Starving Artist’s Guide to Becoming a Seven-Figure Writer. And again, the subtitle, other people have done that. Let’s talk about power because why did you use that word, and what kind of power are you talking about? Amy: So when I was coming up in Hollywood, a lot of the writers around me, we were all being funnelled into the gatekeepers’ world for us, and the vision that other people had for us. That meant that we were giving up our power. So when I went on this journey of being able to travel the world, and ghostwrite memoirs, and being able to write my own novels and connect with readers directly, I discovered my own sense of power. I think that for writers, you’re not really allowed to want to be able to have power over your career because it’s so discouraged by gatekeepers and society. You’re supposed to be a starving artist who is grateful for anything that comes your way because you get to make your art. So I think that there’s a shift happening in culture where writers are being treated not just as artists that are expected to starve, but also as creative entrepreneurs, where we’re learning how to own all parts of our creative journey. Both the creation of our books artistically, but also the marketing of them, and how we get them out into the world, and treating that like one whole entity. I think that there’s a shift happening where writers are no longer wanting to write what gatekeepers tell them to, and are wanting to be able to have unburdened creative freedom. That’s why so many authors like Brandon Sanderson end up self-publishing or independently publishing, because they want that creative power to be able to serve their fans and their readers better. That’s so cool, and it also proves the fact that even with people like Taylor Swift buying back her masters, so many people who are at the top of their game are outgrowing the gatekeepers. If they’re not finding use for these older systems, then that also brings them into question for the rest of us. Jo: I love that. Coming back to the book, so you mentioned the starving artist mindset, and in the book you also talk about the creator CEO, and I love that. I feel like I can claim those words, but I know some people listening will just find that pretty intimidating, I think. So what do you think the process is for moving from scarcity to the more empowered author mindset? Amy: When I first was starting my career as a writer, I never wanted to be a business person. I didn’t want to look at spreadsheets, I didn’t want to deal with accounting. The thing is, if you want power over things like what does your book cover look like, or how is your book marketed, or how does your book enter the world, and even just what are the contents of what you’re writing, what are the subject matters, what is actually something that gets to reach your readers? If you want that power, then it does come with some of the other elements of being an entrepreneur, which is understanding how to price your book. There are so many interesting mechanics of bookselling, which is what I really love that you’ve been covering on The Creative Penn Podcast and on your blog, Joanna. It’s just so beautiful to see writers talking about the entrepreneurial side of what does it mean to sell books? How do you do it? What are the mechanics of that? Today, with different types of technology, it’s gotten easier than ever for writers to be able to do a lot of things themselves, which can feel intimidating, but then you realise how much it unlocks. Even something as simple as, if you sell one book to a reader who likes your work, your royalty percentage can go from 10, 20, 30% to up to 70%, because you’ve made that switch of being able to take on the cap of CEO and being able to own a little bit more responsibility. With that, the number of books that you need to sell to have a beautiful life as a writer immediately drops. So for me, the added responsibility was worth it because I was able to have all this freedom, being able to write on my own schedule and set my own publish dates, and not have to wait two years for a book to come out. I could wait instead six months and pick exactly how I wanted the book to come out. So I think it’s reframing this step into becoming a creator CEO, not as a burden, but as an opportunity to flex your creative muscles in different ways, and to be able to have more flexibility in your own life on how your creative work comes out and is distributed. Jo: Absolutely. It’s so great to hear. I just feel like so much of what you say is what I’ve been saying for years. When I started saying it back in 2008, this was not popular, and we were considered the early indie authors. It was considered vanity. It was considered the worst form of publishing. You were not good enough to get published. hat’s not how you’re talking about it, is it? Amy: No, and I think that— A lot of people are shifting what it means to be “self-published.” It’s not a vanity press thing. We’re just seeing so many examples of people using the internet to take their work and bring it directly to fans, and understanding that there are fewer barriers than ever to getting your books into your readers’ hands. Actually working with a bunch of bureaucracy of a larger publishing house can slow you down, can dilute your ideas, and can potentially keep you from being the kind of author that has the career that you’ve always wanted. So I think it’s an empowerment of the creator age and the creator economy, and this ability to publish more, to publish faster, to publish more creatively, to put out bolder ideas. So, yes, I think that you are definitely a trendsetter, and I think that that’s so incredible, the trend that you were riding the wave of, and that you were originating, coming to fruition. I think that just proves that you were ahead of the curve. Jo: Oh, well, thank you for that. I feel like one wave crested, and now we’re in another wave, and we’re going to circle back to technology. But just so people get a sense of your creator CEO self, what are your multiple streams of income? How are you making your income with all these different ways of writing? Amy: The income streams that I cover in Write for Money and Power are my own income streams as well as what I recommend for other authors, and it’s a trifecta of freelancing, a paid newsletter, such as a newsletter hosted on Substack, and also income from your books and royalties related to your work as an author. These three income streams have helped me balance this side of both creativity and also commerce and the needs of being able to pay bills, so that I can travel the world and live in beautiful cities like San Francisco, where I get to call home. These three pillars are really great because they also support each other. If you have an audience that subscribes to your Substack or your other paid newsletter, regardless of what platform you’re on, that audience can pay a subscription fee to access certain types of content, similar to platforms like Patreon. Then you can not only get revenue from that, but that paid newsletter audience can then buy your book when your book comes out and become early readers of your book. From there, the audience that buys your book on Substack can also serve as a point of proof for your freelancing. So if you offer any services, like so many novelists I know offer developmental editing and things like that, then you can use the proof point of a community to become a freelancer and then sell your services that way. So the three of them feed into each other, because then the money that you make from freelancing can fund your next book launch, or it can fund more time for you to go and write on Substack. That flywheel is something that can help writers, and it is an alternative to what we’ve thought about in the past about a traditional day job, about going and working as a barista or a coffee shop worker. There are so many other different careers that you could do, but these are nice because these three pillars feed into your future book launches and your writing as a whole, to create this holistic flywheel of income. Jo: Yes. I definitely think having another stream of income other than just book sales is important. Obviously, this podcast, for example, has sponsors, and I also have a Patreon, although it’s not a paid newsletter. I think what you mean is a subscription, some kind of subscription where you have,—not guaranteed income every month—but at least more regular income every month rather than the up-and-downiness, which books are so much so. Amy: Definitely. There are so many different models, and the paid newsletter is one that I think is becoming more attractive right now because you are able to keep all of the email addresses of everybody who signs up, and you’re able to email them directly. So compared to building an audience on Instagram or TikTok, you’re able to own your email list and take that email list with you from platform to platform, so you’re not dependent on these platforms. I like the paid newsletter as a format for authors because you’re able to keep people in the loop about every book and your writing process, and give them a behind-the-scenes look. It’s also just such a great format that’s built for writers. On platforms like Substack, the people who are doing the best are novelists and authors and writers. So I think it’s also trying to look at the places where you already have the skill set to thrive versus having to build an entire audience on YouTube or TikTok. Some authors really take to that, but I know a lot of writers who are introverts and prefer to thrive in the written form. So putting out a paid newsletter allows them to connect and build that fan base with their readers, and also thrive in the medium that they’re already in. Jo: Fantastic. Well, let’s talk about Substack then, because you have two. I have two author names, and I know how hard it is to maintain two lots of everything. So you’ve got Make Writing Your Job and Sutoscience. So tell us about those Substacks—why two—and a bit more about using Substack in general. Amy: Make Writing Your Job is our community for writers. We host a job board. We list different grants, contests, and residency opportunities. We also do author interviews and try to find different ways to bring people cool resources on how to make writing their jobs, including some discounts on different products like Scrivener and things like that. Make Writing Your Job was my first Substack that I built, and we have over 60,000 subscribers today, and we’re in the top 25 of business on Substack. I built it as a place to try to help everybody else with the concepts of my books, and then also to be connected to other freelance clients that I was too busy to work with. So it came from a place of wanting to just empower people to make writing their job through a myriad of different ways. That’s been a really exciting community to grow because it’s truly become something that I’m just so proud of. We do in-person meetups in Los Angeles and other cities. We have such a great group of people that we’ve been able to put together on that Substack that it became something that I’m just so grateful to have. Then Sutoscience is my own personal Substack where I share all of the behind the scenes of what it means to be a writer and an entrepreneur, trying to figure out how to stay connected to my creativity while thinking strategically about how to grow on Substack and things like that. So on Sutoscience, I write about the behind the scenes of everything I’m up to, and I also have a monthly mastermind group with my founding members where we all talk about this. We’re basically a writers’ group for what we’re building on Substack and beyond with our books. So it’s been fun. The reason why I have two is because Make Writing Your Job is something I run with my husband. It’s a community. It’s something that I’m building in service of a larger group, whereas Sutoscience is more my personal behind the scenes. Jo: What about serialising your fiction? Talk about that. Amy: This is something that I was really excited to get working on this year, and it surprised me in so many different ways. A lot of writers who have serialised fiction on Substack have promoted it as a way to just bring in tons of paid subscribers, and it’s something that has unlocked so much for them. I have found that the benefits of serialising fiction go even beyond paid subscribers. When you do the math on it, it makes a lot of sense. When you sell a single book, then you are usually making around $6 to $7 of profit, depending on how you’re publishing, who you’re publishing with, if you’re going direct. If you have a Substack that’s priced at around $8 a month, then if you have people sign up to read even the first few chapters, they’ll read the chapters, and then if they stay subscribed, you’ve already out-earned what you would have made on a book. So the math already makes a ton of sense, but the thing that really surprised me when I started serialising my novel, Let Me Be Your Ghost, on my Sutoscience Substack, was that the readers that joined me on the journey so far, because it’s not completely out yet, the readers who have joined me are diehard fans. I literally have had readers who have emailed me since the beginning when the chapters came out, telling me what they loved, telling me what they thought could be changed in the book. Then they’re promoting the book to other people, and helping me get other beta readers, and championing the book, and then being the first to pre-order it when I opened pre-orders. So what I’ve built unintentionally with the serialisation is not only another audience and a different type of digital product along with the launch of the book, but I’ve built a way to supercharge pre-orders and also connect deeper with my true fans, with the readers who are really invested in helping me make this book the best that it can be. Serialising fiction is also really fascinating because I’m serialising what is essentially a rough draft that will eventually morph into the final draft. So similar to other authors that I’ve admired, I’m really trying to bring my community in and see what they think of this story. Does it feel like something that resonates with them? To have people be so ardently helpful has been really incredible, and I’ve gotten thousands and thousands and thousands of views on the chapters. That’s something that, as a fiction author, I’m so grateful for, to have those early readers, those early champions. So far I’ve just been blown away by the reactions with the beta reader forms I put out. I’m going out to ARC readers this week, and my early readers have been driving that, as well as driving revenue to help me continue to spend more time on the book. Jo: But then I guess I would argue that it doesn’t matter what platform you use. If you have an audience then that process works, whatever platform you use. At the moment, a lot of writers are jumping on Substack because they’ve heard that they can do things like what you’re saying. But once again, they’re arriving at what is now actually quite a crowded platform, and putting up some chapters of their book, whether it’s fiction or non-fiction, and then they’re like, “Well, nobody’s here.” So if someone is in that situation, if they’re putting up their chapters or they’re putting up articles or whatever, and they don’t have any traction— What are your tips for getting more traction on Substack? Amy: The great thing about Substack—and I try to reveal these numbers as much as possible on Sutoscience—is that most of my paid subscribers, most of my total subscribers, are actually coming from Substack itself. Substack has a lot of great built-in discovery tools, including recommendations, but also their algorithm that promotes you when somebody is signing up for someone else’s Substack. There are a lot of really clever tools that Substack has that have ended up driving a ton of readers who maybe never would have found me on any other platform. The cool thing is, I don’t have to pay upfront to have those readers find me. So a lot of the things that I break down on my Sutoscience Substack are how to make sure that your Substack is categorised correctly and shows up in discovery correctly, how to work with other Substackers on interviewing them or being interviewed on Substack Live, which then brings other people into your universe. Substack just has all of these really cool creative tools that I haven’t seen any other platform use to support writers, in part because their incentives are aligned. Substack makes a 10% cut of all paid subscriptions, and they handle so much more in the back end that you would have to pay for otherwise. So it’s really cool to be able to use their discovery tools to get in front of new readers, and the fiction category is something that is growing. It is definitely a smaller category compared to the personal essay, how-to non-fiction categories. But I’ve seen that fiction has definitely been ticking up, including, most impressively, Jeff Bezos’ ex-wife has been publishing her fiction on Substack. Which I found just so interesting, that somebody who is basically a billionaire, if not a hundred-millionaire, and she has every resource on the planet to go through traditional publishing, she’s picking Substack as a place to put out her work. In part because the platform also has this brand of being very high-end, of having these journalists and these authors and these serious writers on the platform. So you have this natural discovery of people who are coming to read War and Peace chapter by chapter on one Substack that’s doing an analysis. They’re reading journalists from these esteemed publications that have moved to Substack. Alongside those different incredible writers, they can discover your work as well. So it’s not going to be something that’s easy to grow from zero, but I think it’s really cool to be able to take your work to a platform where you already know there’s an audience of really serious, interested readers that then will bring that energy to reading your work. Jo: So if somebody does want to come over to Substack, I guess one of the things that puts me off another platform is that, for example, I don’t like chatting in comments. Substack, I believe, has now got its own social network as much as anything else. How are you managing comments on Substack versus other social media? Amy: I feel like the common thread here, the thing that I feel as well, is that it can be overwhelming to be, “I need to be on all these social media platforms, and I have to be present. People have access to me.” That can be a lot. So I think that Substack has to be one of those platforms where there needs to be a level of understanding what is right for you and what’s not right for you. For example, the subscriber chat feature is something that I think a lot of people would be better off just turning off and not having to worry about it. The other feature is being able to have the comments on your posts be for paid subscribers only. So the only people that can comment on your posts are just people who have intentionally paid for your publication and want to be there. I think that naturally gets rid of spam. It naturally gets rid of people who are lurking, or naysayers, or things like that, and it keeps it closer to a community. The other piece of their social media platform, Substack Notes, while it can be helpful for growth, I think it doesn’t have to be something you have to go all in on to see growth on Substack. I very rarely am on Substack Notes, and I’m often scheduling things ahead of time and not necessarily engaging a whole lot. I do think that compared to other social media platforms and other places where discussions happen around writing, I’ve found Substack to have the most interesting conversations. Also, I’ve met the most fascinating people in real life from connections that I’ve made on Substack. So there is this neat community and neat pool of people, but you have to be intentional about how you interact with it, in the same way you have to be intentional about how you interact with other social media platforms or other spaces online. Jo: Yes, it’s so funny, isn’t it? I think it’s also about what stage you are in your author career, because as you’re talking there, I’m remembering the early days of Twitter. I got on Twitter in 2008, and that was the golden era of blogging and Twitter. A lot of the friends I have in real life now, I met on Twitter, and it built my author platform in those early days. I connected with people who changed the way my career went. That just sounds very similar, and it just feels like every couple of years, a new platform rises. And that might not be brand new. Obviously, Substack’s not brand new. It’s reasonably mature now. But over the last few years, I think really since the pandemic, it’s grown. So I think maybe that’s the tip for people. You don’t have to do all of these things, but there might be things that emerge at different points that work for you. Amy: Definitely. I think that’s a good way to think about it, because ultimately, and this is something that I’m always trying to keep track of, we are writers and we should be writing first. All of these platforms, all these tools, they should be in service of us finding time to write creatively and write work that our readers will enjoy. Everything else is noise. So it’s trying to understand what is a distraction, what is actually getting you closer to your true fans, your true readers, and what platform features or things are just not worth it. That, I think, is the question that we always have to ask ourselves, auditing. Is this actually useful, or is this going to be a huge time suck that I’m just going to spend doomscrolling or completely distracted from the actual core of the work that we’re here to do? Jo: Well, then I guess the question relates to what topic people should do. You’re an interesting example because you have different fiction novels in different genres already. So you’re obviously a multi-passionate creator, and you’re not sticking with one genre. You also have this non-fiction content. So if authors have lots of different genre books like you do, where should they start with their Substack? What should they focus on in order to attract people who might be interested in their work? Amy: The best advice that I have gotten, and that I’ve seen work for others as well, is to start with the thing that you’re most excited about. That might be, for some writers, writing about their day-to-day life. What is it like to get up and write either before work or as their full-time job? For other writers, it’s writing an incredibly niche deep dive on Nicholas Sparks. Everybody’s going to have their own way into what it means to enter this space and write something for other people and to share the things that they’re excited about. There’s one sci-fi author who wrote an incredibly detailed piece about the types of pens that he uses, and how different fountain pens write best on different types of paper, what type of paper, what to write with on an airplane, because with certain pens, the ink gets stuck on the airplane. I love this idea of people coming to share the thing that they are so passionate about, and that they could write forever on. In the niche comes the universal. So in writing about something very specific, suddenly you’ll get other readers that are also fanatics of the types of pens, or different romance authors, or whatever it is. I think that so often we try to mould ourselves to what we think people will like to read, but in reality, if we just write the things that we love, and then just tweak the framing so that it’s accessible for readers, then we’ll have made it, then we’ll have gotten there, and our passion will shine through. So I think that the hardest part about Substack is trying to figure out how to write the thing that you love and just package it in a way where the headline is something that will speak to the piece that you’ve written, and that readers will know what to expect when they land on your Substack’s About page. So you can have different multitudes. You just need to be able to walk people through it and frame it well. That’s the thing that, as somebody who’s multi-passionate, who is writing all these different formats, I can come to my audience of people who are reading my non-fiction work and say, “Hey, I have a book coming out. It’s called Let Me Be Your Ghost, and it’s inspired by my memoir ghostwriting work.” So I’m connecting my non-fiction work to the inspiration of my new romantic thriller book. I’m able to bridge across different audiences because I’m able to understand what they followed me for, and connect it to something that I’m doing next that I think they’ll really love. Jo: Yes, that’s great. Again, it’s so funny because it does resonate with the early days of blogging on WordPress and all the things we used to do, which I still do. It’s really funny because it’s exactly the same with the SEO structures. But yes, I love it. Let’s talk a bit more about technology. In the book, you do talk about AI. You say, “AI tools can be incredible amplifiers. They’re not replacements, they’re accelerators. I think that every serious writer who wants to stay competitive is going to use them in some way.” Now, I agree with that, but of course, the author community is pretty split, and I think Substack has even incorporated Pangram or one of the anti-AI writing things. So can you talk about your thoughts and use of AI and how you think it’s changing things? Amy: I think that the analogy that I really love to use to think about this is to think about how some of the most successful writers in Hollywood, and then also in traditional publishing, put together a book or a show. In Hollywood, you are the showrunner, and it’s your idea, and you bring together a room of five to eight really talented writers, and you bounce ideas off of them. They shape the work, and then they often are the hands typing on the keyboard, and they bring work to you for you to review, and everything goes through your computer last. Even in traditional publishing, even though you may be writing a book, your editor is going to give you tons of notes. Your agent is going to shape a lot of pieces of it. You’re going to have the publisher giving you a lot of feedback on what it should look like. Even if you’re self-published, you still need a lot of that support. So the way that AI, I think, fits into a lot of this is that it helps with a lot of pieces of the process that are tedious and challenging, and that are not tied deeply to your creativity. When I think about writing a book, especially a non-fiction book, it’s not just about, “Here, let me put everything down on paper one way.” It’s about, “Oh, did I already use this anecdote before? Here is a 30-minute transcript of me talking through this chapter and how it should be laid out and all of the ideas in it. Can you help me shape this into something that I can then go and edit?” For fiction, it’s also about the things that we would have used Google for before. What is the list of baby names that I should look through online to try to find the perfect name for this character? Let me do a deep dive on the history of this name, this first name, last name. I think that for us writers, AI can help accelerate parts of the research process. It can help us find things. One thing that I always love using AI for is, how many times have I used this word or phrase in the book? And then it’ll be like, “Oh, you used the word temperature 37 times in the last six chapters.” So it surfaces the things that a good editor would surface, but it will absolutely not replace editors. I think that’s the thing that’s really helpful. I love the collaborative work of working with book editors on my projects. AI helps me to get past some of the detail work, the cleanup of changing my word count or word changes, to make sure that I’m not repeating things. Then it also helps me do deep research on the locations and the places that I may have visited before, but I can’t remember. What is the name of that small town in wine country? I think that this type of tree is in this region, but I can’t remember. Can you help me with that? So much of the writing process is also fact-checking and researching and line editing, and AI can help with so many pieces of that, allowing us to think more freely about our characters and the people that we’re putting into our worlds, and how we’re constructing a non-fiction book. Jo: Yes, I love that. It’s so funny, isn’t it? Some of us have incorporated AI tools into our work now in so many different ways. There are literally tons and tons and tons of ways that we use AI tools, and we still know that we are using our creativity. It just feels more fun as well. I use Claude mostly. I love brainstorming with my Claude around ideas for this, that, and the other, and as you say, at different points in the way we do stuff. For example, Claude will be cleaning up our transcript here and putting it on the blog so people can read the transcript, making this accessible to everyone. So things like that, which, as you say, are not tied deeply to your creativity. Amy: Yes, and I just put in a big order for red pens last night because I need a certain red pen. I’m planning on printing out the rest of my draft as soon as I finish, before it goes to ARC readers. I know I’m going to need that analogue experience of sitting down with a red pen at a coffee shop somewhere in San Francisco, where I live, and just going through and having that tactile experience of writing in the margins of the paper and feeling the pen underneath my hand. I think that those experiences are still going to be uniquely us. I think that there are some bad actors out there that are using AI to generate every single word of their book and not reading anything and leaving the prompts in and just publishing it as is. The slop epidemic is huge. I think for us professional writers who come in and use these tools, we’re wielding them like scalpels. We’re coming in, and we’re having it help with the pieces that we know need to change, that we know we need help on, that are often mundane and challenging. Like, “Hey, can you track this character’s eye colour across the whole book, because I know I changed it five times?” So that stuff is really helpful, but at the end of the day, I think it’s the author’s responsibility to sit down with a draft and read and have their hands on every single word before it goes out. Ultimately, we’re writing for other humans, so it is the human touch that will make it special and beautiful and unique to our experience. I do think that these tools can help be your writers’ room in a lot of ways, just like you were describing. They can help with a lot of the different pieces. Other professional writers throughout history have had whole teams around them, and therefore, like you were saying, it makes the writers’ room model more accessible for writers who can’t afford that. Jo: Yes, or who just want to do it for fun. It’s funny, you were talking there about the eye colour. It makes me laugh because I do that all the time. Also, I’m now writing book 14 in my ARKANE thriller series, and the first book I started writing in, oh, it must have been 2009. So it’s been a really long time, and— I don’t want to reread every single book every time I do the next one. My main character, Morgan Sierra, has been through a heck of a lot of battles, and so the wounds on her body at this point, and her scars. So I was saying to Claude, “Can you please just update my character bio for Morgan, and where she might be hurting in this fight scene?” Amy: I love that. That’s so clever. Jo: Which is just so fun. Oh, and also, “In all the fight scenes we’ve written for all the books, can we do something more original for the next one?” Amy: Yes, and I think that this is such a great use case, because otherwise other authors have sometimes had teams that track their character bibles and things like that. Even when I was working in Hollywood, when I was getting started, I was the assistant helping my boss track those kinds of things. I think that it’s very manual and also sometimes inaccurate, so having machines do some of these jobs that it’s more effective to use them for, I think, can then free you up to think about, what are the other ways to approach this fight scene? You’re still having to curate, even if AI gives you suggestions of, “Oh, you could do this, this, or this.” You have to be the one saying, “Oh, I know that this is going to be the best choice, but I’m going to combine it with this and change this to make it true to your story and your series.” So that curation is one of the deepest parts of creativity, and that’s even what James Patterson argued, because he’s worked with ghostwriters his whole career. His whole point was that the work that was the most creative was when he was writing the outlines and deciding how the story was going to be told. When he handed it over to his ghostwriter, he’s like, “The hardest part’s been done. The ghostwriter’s just going to carry out my vision, and I have already done the creative heavy lifting.” So a lot of writing is just making good creative decisions. Jo: So then one reason that some writers are worried about this is because readers, or more likely other writers, are attacking them. As you said, there is a very literary community on Substack. So for those writers who might feel afraid of using AI in any way—even with marketing tasks because they’re worried about being attacked— How can you encourage them? Amy: I think that this is just another wave. Every time there’s a new technology, there’s always going to be that moment of fear around, “Is this going to take our jobs? Is this going to hurt us in some way? What is this?” I think that wave is starting to pass. I’ve even seen it with a lot of my Hollywood friends that were very anti-AI, who are professional working writers now. They’re starting to incorporate it into their process more. I think that while there are still areas like traditional publishing where there’s a lot of fear-mongering around that, if you’re able to take your career into your own hands and have the power to be able to put out what you want, then you shouldn’t fear that. You shouldn’t fear backlash because these tools have completely changed everything. You can’t put them back in the box now. So many authors are either using them publicly or in secret, and this is something that is already coming to revolutionise everything. I say that as somebody who is in San Francisco seeing the future of these tools, seeing how people are using them, and if you want to publicly not use them, that’s totally okay. But I think the writers who want to use them shouldn’t feel shame around it, shouldn’t feel like they’re going to be attacked. There are always going to be people, fans, writers, readers, who are going to attack other authors on a variety of different things. Internet hate has always been around, even before AI. So I think, for me, if you’re writing a good story that people love, they’re not going to care that it’s AI. They’re going to feel invested in the characters. So I think ultimately it’s trying to stay away from all of those fights about what is good, what is bad, whether or not you should use it. Every author’s going to have to make that decision for themselves. If readers don’t want to read certain things made with certain tools, that’s okay, but I think that at the end of the day, we’re all humans and we want to read good stories. I think that is going to win out over the purity battle of whether or not this has been used with AI. I think that is going to start to fade away. Jo: Oh, thank goodness for that. I really, really hope so. So where can people find you and your books and your Substacks and everything you do online? Amy: So Sutoscience.com, spelled like my last name, S-U-T-O, and then the word science, is my personal Substack, and MakeWritingYourJob.com is our writing job board with resources for writers. Also, I’m on every social media platform @sutoscience. Jo: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Amy. That was great. Amy: Yes. Thank you so much for having me.The post Write For Money And Power: Becoming A Creator CEO With Amy Suto first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can giving your characters two bad choices raise the stakes in your stories? And how do you ask for the feedback you need from a critique group, and disregard the rest? Erin Dionne shares her writing and publishing tips after more than 20 years as an author and professor. In the intro, The Future of Listening Audible survey [Publishing Perspectives]; Spotify expand audiobooks globally; Audible announce immersive new AI features [Publishing Perspectives]; Writing Storybundle; SPS Live USA conference; AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinars in November. Today’s show is sponsored by Bookfunnel, the essential tool for your author business. Whether it’s delivering your reader magnet, sending out advanced copies of your book, handing out ebooks at a conference, or fulfilling your digital sales to readers, BookFunnel does it all. Check it out at bookfunnel.com/thecreativepenn This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Erin Dionne writes middle grade novels, picture books, chapter books, and nonfiction, as well as cosy mysteries under a pen name. She’s also a college professor, and her latest book for writers is Bad Choices Make Good Stories: Conversations About Writing. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why two bad choices beat an easy choice and a hard one How pre-writing in a notebook builds confidence in your characters before you draft Giving characters dimension beyond the bubble of their story How to ask for the feedback you want, and protect the core of your story Forming an indie press with your critique group How to get school visits through librarians and conferences You can find Erin at ErinDionne.com. Transcript of Interview with Erin Dionne Jo: Erin Dionne writes middle grade novels, picture books, chapter books, and nonfiction, as well as cosy mysteries under a pen name. She’s also a college professor, and her latest book for writers is Bad Choices Make Good Stories: Conversations About Writing. So welcome to the show, Erin. Erin: I’m thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me. Jo: There’s lots to talk about. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Erin: Sure. Like some of the other people that you’ve talked to on the podcast, I’ve been a huge reader and writer ever since I was a little kid, but when I was about seven, I realised that it was people that wrote books. I thought that they came out of a machine or something. When I found that out, I thought, oh my goodness, I love reading stories, so being a writer must be the best job in the world. So I was single-mindedly focused on being an author as a career after that. I wrote off and on in school. I wrote short stories and things. When I went to college, I got a degree in English and communications, and then I went and got my MFA in creative writing. While I was in school, I also decided that I wanted to learn about the publishing industry, so I worked as an intern for a local magazine. Then after I graduated, while I was in grad school, I actually worked in publishing for Houghton Mifflin in their marketing department. I became an editor for a magazine, and then ultimately, I became a professor, and I work at an art school. It was at that point, finally, when I was surrounded by other creative people, that I thought, “Okay, I’ve learned all this stuff. I need to actually put it into practice.” So I got serious about my work in 2005, and my first book came out in 2009, a traditionally published children’s book, and I published in the children’s book field for the next 11 years. I released my first indie book in 2021, and now I consider myself a hybrid author. I do some books traditionally published, some books indie, and I really like being able to have control in different aspects of my career. Jo: Well, that’s great. Wow, you’ve just done so much across the whole industry. That’s fantastic. I do want to ask you then, before we get into the book, you did an MFA, and obviously you love studying. I also love studying. I understand that. I wonder where you stand now on whether people need to study so much. I found personally, as someone who also enjoys studying, that sometimes I make myself not do the practice. I’d rather sometimes be learning than doing. So how can people balance learning a lot with actually writing the book? Erin: Yes, I think that’s a great question. For me, my undergraduate degree in English was not creative writing focused. We didn’t have that. So I thought, “I need to learn how to write.” What I really learned in grad school was how to revise and how to teach. I think now, 20 years later, with the cost of education, you don’t have to have a master’s degree to write. You don’t have to have a degree in English to write. You have to read a lot, and you have to write a lot. I think the MFA is great for deep study on your particular genre if you feel like you need to learn more, and I think it’s great if you want to teach, but it’s not necessary to be a writer. To be a writer, you have to write. So sometimes we can hide behind learning and hide behind all kinds of things to avoid doing the work, but what it comes down to is you have to put your butt in the chair and you have to write at some point. Jo: It’s funny, isn’t it? I like the “hide behind the learning.” I still struggle with it because I love learning so much. I also just finished another master’s degree. I can’t help myself. I do a lot of research for all my books, and I almost have to just pull myself up sometimes and say, “Look, do you really need to do any more research in order to write this novel?” Erin: Exactly. Jo: Okay. Well, let’s get into the book. So you start writing with characters first, and other people, like me, often start with a theme or a question or a place or something. So talk about your process of creating characters and this bad choices idea as well. Erin: Sure. Most of my books start with a character. Like you, I’m a discovery writer, but I love to do all my discovery work in pre-writing phases, and I pre-write by hand. I’m a big proponent of using a notebook. I carry a notebook with me wherever I go, and I have specific notebooks that are for specific projects. Most of my pre-writing is character-based. I really want to learn about who this person is, what do they want, what are they going after in their life and in the story, and what do they need? Wants and needs are always a big one for me, because I feel like a character should be able to articulate their want, but they don’t always know what their need is. That’s up to us as the author to identify that. Then through the course of the story, I always think about it in terms of the character is going after what they want, but they’re going to get their need met by the end of the story. That brings satisfaction to the reader when a character gets their need met. So I take a lot of time to try to figure out what that is, because for me, that’s going to drive the story. I really have to understand the character’s world before I begin. When I feel like I have a really good handle on who these people are that the book is about, I’ll do a beat sheet, like what Jessica Brody was talking about on your show earlier in August. I’ll do a beat sheet to get some general ideas of plot points, and then I’m ready to write. Then that’s where the bad choices come in. If you think about a character and they get to a crossroads in a story, lots of times the first thing that we think about are an easy choice and a hard choice. So for example, if we have a character who’s 16 years old, and she’s grounded, and there’s a party on Friday night that she wants to go to, one choice is for her to just stay home and then hear about the party. The other choice is for her to sneak out and go to the party, and obviously sneaking out and going to the party could have higher stakes and better consequences. But that’s also an easy choice, and both you and your reader know where the character’s going to go. If you give your character two bad choices, that character is going to go to the party no matter what. So are they going to sneak out and have a friend pick them up, or are they going to sneak out and take their mother’s car and go to the party? Now we have two bad choices, higher stakes, and more potential for story drama if they take that bad choice. So I’m always looking at ways that I can have my characters get into a little bit more trouble, make things a little harder. For me, that comes with those decision points, and giving them two bad options so that the reader knows, ooh, they’re going to do something wrong. It’s just a matter of what wrong thing are they going to pick? Jo: So it’s interesting, because you said you’re a discovery writer, and then you talked about your pre-writing phase and the beat sheet, and now these bad choices. So are you coming up with these bad choices at the pre-writing, at the beat sheet phase, or do these emerge once you’re actually into the drafting process? Erin: They come out in the drafting process. I have a general idea by the time I start writing of some of the highs and lows of the book, but I don’t know how the character is going to get there. Because I know my character really well, I can write with confidence, and I know that I’m going to figure out the path that they’re going to take. Jo: The word pre-writing, maybe you could talk more about that, because I feel like some people listening are like, “I don’t even know what that means.” So what is pre-writing for you? Erin: Brainstorming. I just throw down in my notebook all kinds of things about my characters. Everything from the way they look to what they think about, hobbies that they have, people that are important in their lives, people that have influenced them in some way. I make lists. If I’m writing about a young character, I make lists of things that are in their backpack, or I’ll think about what their school schedule is, who their friends are, what their family situation is, and really try to figure out the dynamics of the world around their want, and why do they want this thing that they’re going after. So I will spend three or four months just getting these ideas down on paper. I’ll write letters from my character to me. And all of this is building confidence in who my character is so that I can inhabit them fully when I start to write. Jo: Wow, that is so interesting, and I have to say I’ve never done anything like that. Again, it’s so fascinating, isn’t it? I might spend all my research time on the mythology behind a particular place. I’m often fascinated in places where there’s been a lot of death and killing and blood soaked into the ground, because these places have a historical and often religious depth to them, and then I’ll stick a character there. Erin: Yes, it’s just two different ways of coming at the same problem, right? And that’s the beauty of writing, is we all do it in our own way, which is what makes our stories different and interesting. Jo: Totally. Well then, if somebody finds their characters are not interesting enough, maybe someone is more like me and they want to become more like you, how might they address this? How could they look at some of the common issues with characters? What are some of your tips if people want to enrich their characters before they write? I mean, you’ve given us some things there, but I feel like what is in a character’s backpack, for me, just feels way too detailed. Erin: I think a lot about the reader experience, and readers want to connect with characters, and they want characters to feel real. I think sometimes as writers, we confuse that idea that a character is interesting with making them angsty or having all of these heavy issues around them. I like to think about characters in terms of dimension. What else exists in this person’s life outside of the bubble of their story? I don’t mean things that we don’t see on the page, but we all have different interests, and we all have different fears that may or may not come up, depending on what’s going on in our lives. So creating a character that has multiple facets, and things then bleed into the story. I can give you an example. There’s a book by Angie Thomas, a young adult novel called On the Come Up, and the main character wants to be a rapper. She has a family history of performance, and that’s her goal. She also characterises herself as a super nerd. She’s really into Pokémon and Star Wars and Marvel movies, and these things show up in the way that she sees the world and the analogies that she makes and the references that she makes. All of a sudden you have this character that has so much more dimension, because she feels more real. So I’m always looking for things that I can pull in from other facets of my character’s life to give us a lens that they see the world through. So thinking about, beyond what’s happening in your story, what do they do in their free time? What are the things that they would reference when talking to a friend?What are some of the inside jokes maybe that they have, or cultural elements that they would carry through? Even just sprinkling in a couple of those things, all of a sudden your character becomes richer for your reader. Jo: How do you take that further and turn that deep character into plot points on your beat sheet? Erin: So I always think about, how is the character moving through their life and their story? What type of story am I telling in terms of genre? And then how do those things intersect? So I have a book called Moxie and the Art of Rule Breaking, and the character is solving a mystery, but she’s also really good at math. So she uses geometry proofs as logical paths to help her solve the mystery. I am not good at math, so I had to figure all of that out for her. Then all of a sudden, this character has a very different type of problem, and she’s literally using her logical problem-solving skills to solve it. So there are those moments where we can see how these other elements intersect with our characters’ lives, just like they would if things were happening to us in real life. You use the skills that you have. I think that also ultimately ends up making you more confident when you approach the page, and readers can sense that confidence in your work. Jo: Yes. What are your thoughts on character flaws? This is another thing that everyone emphasises. Do you focus on flaws, or is it more those wants and needs? Erin: I think in creating characters, everybody has flaws, right? So I don’t so much think about what is their major flaw in this story, but in terms of getting their need met, usually their need somehow feeds into a flaw. Maybe they’re a character who needs to be more generous, so by nature they’re behaving in a way that’s more selfish. Or maybe they’re a character who needs to have stronger relationships, and so their flaw would then come out of that need, and they are a little bit more withdrawn or standoffish. So over the course of the story, the events of the story cause them to change, right? The experiences that they have cause them to move a little bit further over on the continuum to getting that need met. Jo: Another thing I think about a lot is characters in series. As I said, I do character a bit different to you. I’m more of the Lee Child, Jack Reacher vein, or James Bond, where the characters stay similar in each adventure and the plot moves around them. For people writing series, and you write cosy mysteries, sometimes there are little things we can do. If people want to have a long-running series, how should they construct characters in that way so that you’re not running out of ideas for that character? Erin: That’s a great question, and one that I’ve been wrestling with with my cosy mysteries. The way that I am addressing it is I’m acknowledging the experiences that she has from book to book. So in the first book, she gets herself into trouble solving a mystery, and she gets captured by the criminal. Then in the second book she’s struggling with that. She’s having nightmares. She’s got a little bit of PTSD. So now she has a new problem that she has to wrestle with for herself that has never happened to her before. So in that type of a series, where it’s not so episodic, where you do have a longer line, you can pull and build from book to book. You can also build in overarching issues that take two or three books, or four or five books to resolve, whether that’s a larger external mystery or a larger character issue that you want to explore. Lots of books have on-again, off-again romances, will they or won’t they, that add to the stakes, and that’s also a way that you can explore how the character is dealing with relationships. What’s preventing her from connecting with that other person? Why is she skittish? What would cause her to trust? What happens when trust is broken again? So I think that there are all different ways to come at it, depending on the type of character you’re creating and the type of book that you’re writing, and also what type of audience you have for your stories. There are certain expectations depending on genre for certain audiences. So I think having an understanding of what your audience’s expectations are and what it is that you’re writing is also really important. Jo: Yes, the longer the series goes on, I mean, if your character’s already been kidnapped and has PTSD in book two, by book 20, they’re pretty beaten up. Erin: She’s going to be a mess. Jo: Exactly, and then you have to keep thinking about how many awful ways they can be attacked. It can get pretty tough for our characters. But then, happy people in happy land, as I think James Scott Bell says, is not a story that anyone wants to read. Erin: Exactly. You just have to come up with new ways to torture them. Jo: Exactly. Now, just coming back to the book, you have a great chapter on the art of giving critique, and you also talk about receiving it as well. A lot of writers go to classes or writers’ groups and get eviscerated, often by other writers, for whatever reasons. Personally, I don’t do group work. I hire an editor, a professional editor. How can we give critique better and receive critique better, and also not even take it from people who we don’t value? Erin: Those are great questions, and there’s a lot of things to unpack in there. In terms of the way that we give critique, I talk about in the book how I had an epiphany in my daughter’s second grade classroom watching their writer’s workshop. I thought, “Oh my goodness, this is the way that I’ve been teaching writing and have been taught, to just read your story or hand your story over and just take whatever feedback comes for you.” It was the exact opposite of what I did in my real professional life. I’ve been in a critique group for over 25 years, the same group. That’s pretty long. That’s a long time to share your work with people. What I realised is we ask for the feedback that we want. Most of the time, those of us who are writers, we know where we’re struggling and what we’re not doing well and what we need help with. So when I turn over a piece of writing to my group, or when I’m working with my students and we’re sharing work with one another, I always say, “Identify the areas that you feel like you’re doing well, identify the areas where you need help, and make sure you tell the person where you are in your process.” I’ve been a professional writer for 15, 17 years, and when I’m working in a brand new draft, if I’m giving something to my critique group and I haven’t even finished the book, I don’t want to lose that momentum on the story I’m working on. So I tell them, “This is brand new. I need some help figuring out this problem, but I also want your encouragement to finish.” And they deliver. They also give me a little extra stuff on the side, which is great, but I’m asking for what I want. I’m not telling them, “I only want happy things. I only want to hear good things.” I’m asking them to be honest, but I really believe that guiding people into giving the feedback that you’re looking for is really helpful. I think it’s incredibly important. So identifying those strengths and weaknesses is key. I also think giving and receiving critique is a skill that we all have to build. It’s not something that comes easily for us, and so practice, and practising with a critique partner that you trust, is really important. In terms of receiving critique, I think the biggest thing we have to do is identify first, are we ready for feedback? Do you actually want feedback from somebody, or do you want them to tell you that you’re doing a great job and this book is awesome? Real feedback is not just sunshine and rainbows. So being ready for that, I think, is key. Then understanding—I refer to it in my book as the core of your story—the thing that is so important to you that you would not change, but that everything in your story serves. So whether that’s a theme or an idea or the thing that’s at the heart of your book, you have to be willing to understand that any feedback that goes to help you strengthen the core is valuable, and then feedback that’s taking away from the core of your story, you can disregard. I’m not going to change this sister relationship in the story, or I’m not going to take that out. So I’m going to disregard anything that tells me I need to take out that portion of the story. If that makes sense. Jo: Yes, I think a lot of that makes sense. Then again, we’re both experienced writers, and I feel like creative confidence is something that you grow into. Writers who are earlier on in the journey, they might have 20 years of non-fiction writing, and then they’re writing their first novel. I think this is really common, where if you’ve written a lot of non-fiction or different forms of writing and then you try a novel, it’s such a different form of writing. Or even if you’re trying a different genre. I feel like taste is such a big deal as well. I have a lot of writer friends, and some of their writing and my writing, they’re just not the same. I wouldn’t want their critique and they wouldn’t want mine when it comes down to it. How do we get this creative confidence around taking critique? Erin: I do think it’s a skill. I also think that practising advocating for your work is really important. So if a critique goes off the rails, being able to say, “Whoa, this isn’t helpful.” Or directing somebody back, “Hey, I want to talk about X, Y, Z. I want to talk about plot and character, not about my dialogue.” I think that that’s another skill to build, and I encourage people to actually practise and have some of that language ready when you go into a critique, so that you can say, “Hey, this isn’t helpful to me right now.” Or if you’re in a group, make sure that the other people in the group, if they see something going off the rails and you get that frozen, deer-in-headlights look, that somebody else can step in and say, “Hey, let’s shift gears a little bit.” And you can stop a critique that’s not going well. I think the difference, though, is understanding that feedback is part of the process in whatever capacity, whether it’s a critique group or an editor or a reader. This is part of what it means to be a creative person who puts work out in the world. So developing this skill and practice is important, because it’s coming. Right? And sometimes in ways we can’t control. Jo: Yes, there’s going to be a review eventually, and you’re going to have to take it. That 25-year group, that’s so interesting to me. What have you and the other people in that group learned and done in order to keep that together so long? How can we all foster groups like that? Erin: It’s pretty remarkable, and I’m so grateful to all of them. We’ve definitely grown together. I think the biggest piece of it is we all respect one another in our work. We write very different things. Not everybody writes children’s books. Some of us write children’s and adults. We’ve had different phases where people have been doing short stories or novels, or they bring an essay. So it’s being open and receptive and understanding. This might not be something that I am super familiar with, but I’m going to help you in the best way that I can. Again, having that communication around what it is that we’re sharing, being able to say, “This is what I need help with.” It’s really helpful to be on the receiving end of that and say, “Oh, okay, I may not understand the topic really well, or I may not read this type of book, but I can definitely look at your dialogue, or I can definitely look at the openings of your chapters and tell you whether or not I feel like I’m being pulled in.” So being able to communicate with one another, respecting one another’s work, trusting one another, and all of that takes time. So putting that time in and respecting the work that other people are doing, I think, is really important. Jo: Yes, and it brings up something else in the author community, which is the comparisonitis. Someone else’s book has done really well and mine hasn’t. Why aren’t I as successful as that person? So has that come up at all? Because I imagine in 25 years, some people have done really well with book deals, some people haven’t. How has that gone? Erin: Yes, that’s a great point. My whole career I’ve been about creative community, and I really believe a rising tide lifts all boats. So for years I was actually the only person in our group who was traditionally published. We’ve actually formed an indie press together now that we’re indie releasing our members’ books, which is another road we can go down. I think it’s inevitable, right, to have those feelings of jealousy, or that you’re not good enough, and to just recognise that those feelings happen and that’s okay, and to bring it back to the work. We’re learning together, we’re working together, and everybody’s running their own race. I’m going to help you as best I can run yours, and you’re going to help me run mine, and eventually we’re going to get across the finish line. It doesn’t matter what order we cross in, whatever that finish line is. So having that kind of generosity, I think, trumps everything. That’s what I always go back to when I have those moments of, “Oh, I wish my book had,” or, “Oh, I wish I had done X or gotten Y.” I think about the community that I’m in and how generous people are and what can I share with other people to help us all get a little bit further along, and that usually sets me back on the right path. Jo: I think that’s good. I was going to say generosity is a good word to use. So let’s come to that indie press then. What made you decide to go that way, and how are you doing that amongst a group like that? I think it’s becoming a more common thing, but also the practicalities of publishing and marketing can be quite difficult. Erin: Yes. It was during the pandemic. We were meeting on Zoom, and I may have had maybe one more glass of wine than I should have. Jo: Excellent. We all did in the pandemic, right? Erin: During that time… and I had been listening to you for several years at that point. We were having just a regular critique meeting, and I said, “Hey, we all have these different skills.” One of our critique members is a copywriter, one is a former English teacher, one actually works in publishing in design. We all have these different skills. We’re all great critiquers. I said, “Why don’t we learn how to indie publish together?” Because it seems really overwhelming. I wanted to release some projects on my own, and I thought, why not do it with a friend instead? So we formed Table for 7 Press. They all went along with it. I don’t know. All the wine. Jo: All the wine. Erin: They got really excited. So we had a couple of conversations about how we would do it. Now what happens is we help one another prepare our projects. We are each responsible for creating our own accounts and uploading our books. Last year we actually decided that we were going to create an anthology together, and so we each wrote a short story that takes place in one night at one Vietnamese restaurant. Everybody has a different character at the restaurant doing different things at their table. So we published that as a group, called Tonight’s Specials. We used Draft2Digital to do the royalty splitting, and we all promote and we all market it and we all talk about it, and we all have work in the world and we made this thing, which is amazing. It was such a fun experience. Jo: That is lovely. I think that is a nice way to do it, and having the royalty splitting is so good, because that is a pain in the neck, as you know. The amount of money that you’d be paying each other and trying to split is not tons. You’re not splitting a million dollars every month. Erin: Exactly. We’re lucky if we can each buy a cup of coffee. Jo: Yes, absolutely, and especially after the initial promotional periods. So anything that you’ve learned in your indie publishing life that surprised you? I mean, even if you were listening to this show, or you knew about it intellectually as somebody who studies a lot, obviously. What practically might have surprised you, or that you think people should know? Erin: It’s really fun. Jo: Oh, that’s good. Erin: It’s so fun. I love having the control. I was surprised at how much I loved doing interior design. I use Vellum, but have played with Draft2Digital. I’ve played with different formatting software, and that’s something that I never would have thought that I would have enjoyed. I’m not a graphic design person. I’ve just been delighted. I love learning new things, and so there’s so much to learn and there’s so many options that it’s really exciting. As somebody who also has had a traditional career and can continue to have one, it’s a really nice balance. I can produce works and share them with the world that I know wouldn’t fit in a traditional bubble. So I get to make those choices, and I love the control that it gives me. Jo: Well, that’s great. I think the freedom and the creative control and the financial side of it, for me, is still exciting. And starting on a new project, I’ve just started another book this morning, actually. Erin: Oh, fantastic. Jo: You can’t stop us, right? Erin: Right. There’s always something new to do. Jo: Yes, there is. On that as well, I did want to ask you about your school visits and workshops. So on your website, because you do middle grade, you do picture books, chapter books, children’s publishing and children’s marketing is quite a different beast, I think. So tell us about these school visits and workshops, and how do these play a part in your author business? Erin: My school visits are definitely an important component of that. I love being able to go into schools and talk to readers and talk to teachers and librarians about books. They wax and wane for me because I am a full-time professor, and so I have to work around my teaching schedule. So I’m not one of those people who’s doing 30 to 50 school visits a year. I’m a little bit more selective. I tend to stay maybe a little bit more regional with them. It’s an important element for me, and I love being able to connect with readers, and that’s the best thing as a children’s book author, is seeing a kid who just falls in love with your book and is so excited to talk to you about it. So it is a significant portion of my business at certain points when I have a new book out, or at certain times of year when I’m maybe a little bit more available around my teaching schedule. Then the workshops that I do tend to be for writer organisations and talking about craft and craft elements, and those I do regularly all year long. I do a lot of them on Zoom or at conferences or on weekends, and so that portion of it is a little bit easier to fit into my schedule. I love being able to share craft elements and talk about craft with writers at any level, because, again, that element of sharing and generosity and creating creative community is really important to me. So I’m always looking for opportunities to do that, and I really, really enjoy it. So talking to readers and talking to writers, it’s the best job in the world. Jo: Well, just back on those school visits in particular, how are you actually getting those in the first place? How are you marketing to schools and librarians? Erin: So there’s definitely legwork involved. I have presentations that I’ve refined over the years and practised at local library and school events. I do a lot of outreach to librarians. I join the local state library lists. I live in New England, in Massachusetts, so the Massachusetts School Library Association, the Massachusetts Reading Association, they have conferences every year. So I try to pitch myself to go to the conferences, and then you’re in front of people who work at a whole bunch of different schools, and you can get school visits that way. I don’t do as much direct marketing out to individual schools anymore, just because typically it’s the parent organisations that would bring in authors, through grants and funding, and those parent volunteer leaders change. So I try to always go through the librarians, and then the librarians can take it to their school officials. So working through those conferences and those organisations, they all have Facebook pages, and so being able to connect with them, and then things spread by word of mouth. So I’m able to get visits that way. Then, on nice occasions, my book ends up on state reading lists across the United States, and then that’s another opportunity where librarians will see books that show up on those lists and invite authors to come in and speak. So I’ve been very fortunate to have that happen as well at different times in my career. Then once I go somewhere, it’s like anything else. You keep track of who you meet, where you’ve been, get their email address, and then keep in touch with them and remind them that you’re here, and would love to come back to their school, and build those relationships. Jo: It strikes me from everything you’ve talked about that you have very much had a long-term view of your career and your relationships and the generosity, and that your career is built because of that, as opposed to trying to achieve something at a specific point. It’s almost like you’ve just had that long-term view. Erin: I think it’s definitely emerged. I learned and realised very quickly in the traditional sphere that diversification is really important. I’m somebody who’s had a bunch of different books published, but I’ve also been involved in all of the turmoil in the traditional publishing industry. I’ve had editors leave. I’ve had imprints close. I’ve had books go out of print. So, very quickly I learned that I can’t put all my eggs in one basket. I’m also fortunate in that I have my skills as a teacher that I can incorporate in my writing life in sharing and talking about craft. So it became evident that being able to do lots of different things in the community was beneficial and important to me. I love being able to talk to new writers who aren’t as established. It brings me a level of satisfaction that I did not even expect when I first started this. Being part of the writing community, and learning now about the indie community and being part of that community, I just find it so valuable. I think that that contributes to longevity, is being able to adapt and change and diversify yourself, and give back. Jo: Oh, fantastic. Well, it’s a great book, and that is Bad Choices Make Good Stories. So where can people find you and your books online? Erin: My website is the easiest place. It’s ErinDionne.com. Jo: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Erin. That was great. Erin: Thank you, Joanna. It was so much fun to talk to you.The post Bad Choices Make Good Stories: Character, Critique And Community With Erin Dionne first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do you find and notice story ideas, and how do you turn those into short stories, novels, or as anecdotes for your non-fiction or memoir? Why is an author’s note so important in an age of AI, and what might it contain? Joanna Penn shares her thoughts, and her short story, The Black Church, along with its author’s note. In the intro, Ebook Preorders on Smashwords; Two titles per week on Amazon KDP; AI-related Digital Publishing Awards at Frankfurt Book Fair [Publishing Perspectives]; AI webinars in November; JFPenn YouTube; This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Joanna Penn is an award-winning New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, short stories and travel memoir under J.F. Penn and also writes non-fiction for authors and hosts The Creative Penn Podcast. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes From story seeds to stories Writing an author’s note The Black Church, a short story, available as a stand-alone or as part of The Buried and the Drowned collection. Author’s Note for The Black Church You can find How to Write, Publish, and Market Short Stories on all platforms, in all formats: www.TheCreativePenn.com/shortstorybook From story seeds to stories One of the most common questions that writers get asked is ‘Where do you get your ideas?’ This is a strange question for many of us, since we are often so deluged with ideas that the difficulty is sifting out which ones to turn into a story.  The trick is to tune into your curiosity and start noticing what grabs your interest. As Elizabeth Gilbert writes in Big Magic, “The universe buries strange jewels deep within us all, and then stands back to see if we can find them.” What do you see that others don’t? What turns your head while others pass by? What do you want to learn more about? What questions come up for you? What obsessions do you keep returning to? Each of these may be a fragment, a word, or a few lines. I call these story seeds. An idea, in its earliest form, is like a seed. It’s small, easy to miss, and nothing like the thing it might grow into. You literally can’t tell what it will look like when it’s grown, but there is potential in it.  A seed isn’t a plot, or a character, or a full setting. It might be a line in a book or a film, a headline in the news, something you see in a museum display, or a place that made you feel something. It might be a question that bubbles up, or a feeling that won’t let you go. You just have to notice these seeds and, importantly, write them down! Capturing your story seeds Thoughts and ideas and story seeds will flit through your mind all the time if you let them, but they are fleeting, so you need a way to capture them before they leave once more. It doesn’t matter how you do this, but you need some kind of simple process. I use the Things app on my iPhone, which syncs to my Mac so I can always access it. Other people use a note-taking app or a physical notebook. It doesn’t matter. You just have to get it down.  My story seeds are often one-liners, quotes, or links to articles I’ve seen that I want to investigate later. They might be passages from books I have underlined, or places I visit, or questions I have while out in the world. Here are a few examples from my Fiction Ideas file that might even spark ideas for you:  United Arab Emirates plans world’s first underwater bullet train connecting Dubai to Mumbai L’appel du vide. The call of the void. The compulsion to jump. “Vengeance of the lost garden.” Ben Okri. A Fire in My Head Noah’s Ark on the moon, like the Svalbard seed bank The Wicked Bible. Printing error. Thou shalt commit adultery. 1631. You can see that these are not fully formed ideas. They are just seeds. Most will lie dormant, but some will sprout, appearing in stories or books years later.  When I’m thinking about writing a new short story, I sometimes go to a cafe and sit with a coffee and scroll through my seed folder and notice patterns and see what strikes me as interesting. Sometimes I won’t even know an idea came from a seed I once found, but I look at my list later and discover I had thought about it once before. It’s a wonderful way to plant ideas and later find they have grown into something wild and curious.  If you haven’t already got a way to capture your story seeds, establish a simple process now. Don’t overthink it. Just start noticing and writing them down. They might not make sense at the moment, but they may flower later. Searching for story seeds Julia Cameron discusses the idea of an Artist’s Date in her book The Artist’s Way, and this practice has always been important to me. It involves taking time out on your own to go somewhere and fill your creative well, whatever that means to you. For me, it’s often travel to interesting places or visiting museum exhibitions that I know will have nuggets of fascination that may result in full blown story seeds.  On the morning of my fiftieth birthday, in March 2025, we woke up in Iceland next to the Black Church at Búðir on the Snæfellsnes Peninsula, a few hours’ drive northwest of Reykjavík. The small church and graveyard sit on a bed of ancient lava under the gaze of a glacier and there is a sense that time has stopped in this place. As we walked around the church that morning, the place itself became a story seed, and I later wrote The Black Church from that spark. On the cheaper end of the inspiration spectrum, I often go to the British Museum in London seeking story seeds and over the years, it has provided much inspiration for fiction of different lengths.  An exhibition on religious relics inspired Crypt of Bone, a Viking collection appeared in Day of the Vikings, and one of the main characters in Desecration works as a researcher there. In terms of short stories, a sunken Egypt exhibition inspired The Dark Queen and I saw the actual Bronze Age wooden spars of Seahenge at an exhibition on the ancient world. If you follow your curious impulses, you will find story seeds everywhere. From seed to story Now that you have a load of story seeds, how do they become stories?  For me, it’s usually about a juxtaposition of multiple seeds that suddenly coalesce into something coherent. With a Demon’s Eye came from my own experience of laser eye surgery, which was unsettling in so many ways, but a feeling is not enough for a story. Some months later, I read It’s What I Do: A Photographer’s Life of Love and War by combat photographer Lynsey Addario, and I suddenly had a character, someone whose life was defined by their sight, and who might indeed choose a dangerous path to keep it. Questions: Where do you find your story seeds? How can you make time to tune into your curiosity and discover more of them? How are you saving your story seeds? Can you open up time to revisit your seeds and see what might take root as a story? The Author’s Note As a reader, I love an author’s note, and as an author, I always include one in every story, of any length. I want to share the spark that started my thought process and I love to include my research trips and links to photos, as well as a bibliography if I’ve gone deeper into any subject. In an age of AI, when whole stories can be generated with a single prompt, the author’s note is a way to double down on being human and include your fingerprints on your finished work. What is an author’s note? An author’s note is a separate chapter, long or short, at the beginning or end of a story. It’s from you as the writer addressed to the reader who might be interested in what inspired your fiction. As an example, you can find my author’s note for The Black Church below. It can be simple, even just a few lines. At the end of Blood, Sweat, and Flame, I note that the story was inspired by watching the Netflix series Blown Away, a reality show where glassblowers compete in a hot shop filled with furnaces and molten art. It can also be far more substantial. My author’s note for Between Two Breaths is a mini essay on how I left London in 2000 to go travelling after the stress of working in the city in the ’90s and found peace diving beneath the waters of the Poor Knights Islands in New Zealand. Later, that led to diving alone and a moment where I made the choice to carefully ascend when everything in me wanted to stay down in the blue. That author’s note also includes recommended books on free diving as well as a documentary, and links to a solo episode of my Books and Travel podcast where I talk more about why I loved scuba diving. While the two notes differ greatly in length and emotional depth, and they shouldn’t affect whether the reader enjoys the story or not, I feel like they provide an element of humanity that adds to the experience. So, what should you include in an author’s note? Start with the seed I love to include my story seeds, the initial impetus for how the story was born.  In my author’s note for Seahenge, I explain that Seahenge itself is real and did indeed emerge off the coast of Norfolk, but my own experience of it began in 2022 when I stood in the British Museum in front of the actual blackened Bronze Age timbers and imagined a sacrifice laid across that upturned trunk. Standing there, I knew that I’d write a story inspired by it someday, I just didn’t know what that would be at the time. Then I talk about how the seed expanded after a rainy visit to Ely Cathedral two years later, as I considered rising seas and drowned land and how the ocean wants to take it all.  A curious reader can almost understand how the story came to be, and that may change how they regard it, and perhaps, how they think of you, the author.  Include your research and links to resources One of the reasons I write is so that I can feed my books with the results of my endless curiosity. I love research, and many readers are also interested in the lines between fact and fiction. I also make short behind-the-book films from my research trips, like this one for Tomb of Relics, from Becket’s Canterbury to the Shrine of the Three Kings in Cologne, so readers can see the real places behind the story. In the author’s note for Soldiers of God, I include a link to the news report about the Vatican scanning project to digitise the secret archives and use AI to uncover hidden meanings, as well as a link to the twelfth-century papal bull Militia Dei (Latin for soldiers of God) that granted the Templars the right to be buried in their own cemeteries.  In A Thousand Fiendish Angels, I explain the elements from Dante’s Inferno that inspired various parts of the linked stories, like the Arctic location reflecting Dante’s icy hell, the terrifying city of Dis, and even the symbolism of the character names. These hidden layers in the stories can bring an element of surprise and delight which some readers love to explore further. Include emotion and your personal story Part of the idea of doubling down on being human is bringing your real experience and authenticity to the page. Sharing personal emotions in your author’s note can bring a sense of connection between you and the reader that no AI tool or human ghostwriter could ever mimic.  But of course, your note has to come from your honest experience of life, and there’s no need to fabricate anything to make a story seem deeper than it is. Your story may be inspired by something simple, like Blood, Sweat, and Flame stemming from my enjoyment of a TV show, or it can be a more emotionally resonant connection. Beneath the Zoo opens at the gates of the derelict Bristol Zoo on the eve of its destruction, and the author’s note tells the reader why this real place had such a hold on me. After my parents divorced when I was young, my dad would take my brother and me to Bristol Zoo for a couple of hours every month, all the time we really had with him for a period of years. It was difficult, but walking those paths and looking at the animals gave us precious hours together. When the zoo finally closed, and the news reported that it would be turned into housing, I wondered what might be found beneath its Victorian structures. I entwined my imaginings about what might lie there with my own nostalgic grief. Of course, these revelations might feel difficult to talk about and only you can choose what to share. Sometimes we write fiction to obscure the truth and bury our feelings beneath metaphor, but even sharing one true thing will help you connect with the reader. My author’s notes in The Buried and the Drowned reveal aspects of me that even some close friends and family may not know. I reveal myself on the page, knowing that if a reader gets that far, I can trust them with these fragments of my life.  Bibliography and other resources As Cormac McCarthy said, “Books are made out of books,” and I love to share further reading for those who are curious to investigate the truth behind the stories. For De-Extinction of the Nephilim, I shared news articles about de-extinction as well as a podcast interview with the founder of Colossal, the company that inspired the story. And, of course, I shared more fiction recommendations, including Jurassic Park by Michael Crichton and Extinction by Douglas Preston, both inspired by the same technology. For The Black Church, I include the history of the church itself as well as website links for the hotel next to it, and a link to my notes and photos from the Iceland trip, which you can read in appendix 4.  Including these kinds of multimedia links can take the story off the page and into the real world, and perhaps even encourage the reader to go on their own adventures.  If I’ve written on similar themes before, I may include links to those stories or books in the author’s note. At the end of Between Two Breaths, I note that I’ve written about other memorable dives in some of my other fiction. In Stone of Fire, Morgan Sierra recalls a dive at the Moeraki Boulders in New Zealand while inside St. Mark’s Basilica in Venice. In Deviance, O’s memory of an encounter with an octopus plays an important part in the story and is based on my own experience, and The Dark Queen features a dive to a submerged Egyptian city. You can also use your author’s note to say thank you, although sometimes acknowledgements, email list sign-ups, and other back matter are kept separate. There are no rules You don’t need an author’s note at all, and if you include one, there’s no need to follow any template. It’s up to you how much you share, especially if you are self-publishing your own work as only you control the word count.  If you submit to professional markets, author’s notes are often not included or are a few short lines, so you may have to be concise, but if you reprint later, or include your stories in a collection, I urge you to consider adding something about the story behind the story and bring yourself, the author, alive.  Questions: As a reader, do you love an author’s note? What do you like them to include? For whatever story you’re working on, what are the elements you could include in an author’s note? If readers want to do further reading on the topics of your short story, do you have sources from your own research you could share? How could you connect with readers on a personal level through your author’s note? You can read The Black Church as a stand-alone here, or read or listen as part of my collection, The Buried and the Drowned. The post From Story Seeds To Stories, And Writing An Author’s Note, With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you keep writing when midlife brings grief, exhaustion, rage, and a creativity that seems to have dried up? How can you accelerate if midlife brings you more energy? And how can you market your books authentically when your energy and your interests have changed? Jordan Rosenfeld shares what she learned from writing through her own pause. In the intro, how to write short stories [Novel Marketing Podcast]; Bestsellers: Excavating the Tools and Techniques of Successful Novels – Kristen Tate. Plus, Hugh Howey: The AI Bubble Explained; NEO writing software; Will the AI Bubble Destroy our Retirement? By Mr Money Mustache; Future Vision X Prize winner, The Gifted; and my Cathedral Zero trailer; How to Market a Book Fourth Edition survey. Today’s show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Jordan Rosenfeld is the author of psychological suspense novels and books on writing craft, as well as an editor and writing coach. Her latest book is Writing Through the Pause: Mining Midlife for Powerful Writing. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What midlife is, and why so many changes seem to arrive at once Disenfranchised grief, empty nest, perimenopause and the losses nobody talks about A fallow period is a germinating period, not a dead one Don’t isolate, try something new, and learn to write as play How to market your books in a way that reflects who you are at your core Vulnerability, curation and how much of yourself to share online You can find Jordan at JordanRosenfeld.net. Transcript of the interview with Jordan Rosenfeld Jo: Jordan Rosenfeld is the author of psychological suspense novels and books on writing craft, as well as an editor and writing coach. Her latest book is Writing Through the Pause: Mining Midlife for Powerful Writing. So welcome to the show, Jordan. Jordan: Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here. Jo: Yes, this is an excellent topic. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Jordan: Absolutely. I’m really one of those annoying writers who’s been writing all my life since I was a little girl, and it was all I really wanted to be or do. I’m a Gen X-er, so of course we grew up before the internet, and I read for pleasure and escape. So I was really dogged in figuring out how does one go about becoming a writer, because it was the only thing I wanted to do. I remember going to the library and checking out—eventually, later in my 20s—this massive tome, I forget what it was called. Like the Writer’s Guide to Publishing, one of those big old things that has all of the editors, agents and stuff. It was really just figuring out how to do it and sending snail mail queries and going to writing conferences. So I think I was just dog on a bone with it, really, since I was young. Like anything, once you get your toe in, it’s a little easier to keep publishing. I laugh because the first traditionally published book of mine was actually a book on writing craft before I had published any of my novels. So that felt strange, but I wasn’t complaining at the same time. Jo: So when was that, and what has your career looked like so far? Jordan: So I published Make a Scene: How to Craft—oh my gosh, I’m forgetting my own subtitle—Crafting Powerful Scenes in 2005, which means I pitched it in 2003. That was the beginning of my era as a writing craft teacher as well. I was right out of graduate school at that point. Then eventually I published my first novel. When I say my first novel, I just mean the first one that hit the world. It wasn’t my first one written, but Forged in Grace. Then I eventually started putting out a writing craft guide every couple of years, just thanks to the wonderful people at Writer’s Digest. I just found a niche early on. Sometimes that just happens. I also like to point out that I was pitching books at a time before this whole concept of platform was a big deal. So you could be just any old body without a big following, because we didn’t really have social media. I did write for the magazine, the Writer’s Digest magazine, which I think gave me a leg up in the book part. So writing craft became my niche, and then I always have really found success with small press for my novels. So my current publisher is called Sibylline Press, and they are a publisher of women 50 and over, actually. That’s their whole thing. Jo: Oh, okay. That’s interesting. Well, we’re going to come back to the book in a minute, but just in terms of that journey, it’s quite interesting. You mentioned platform there, that changed, and Writer’s Digest publishing themselves got into trouble, didn’t they? They got bought by a different publisher. Jordan: Yep. Jo: So you’ve been through some changes. Well, we’re going to be talking about change in general, but changes in the industry have also happened. So how have you navigated all that change over time? Obviously a lot of listeners to this show are independent authors as well, so thoughts on how things have changed in the industry. Jordan: Well, what’s interesting is Writer’s Digest actually went bankrupt. They got bought by another company who just mismanaged it, called F+W Media, and they went bankrupt. So a lot of us authors were terrified that all of our books were going to just revert. I mean, it was fine to have the rights back, but we didn’t want to republish ourselves at that time. So they did end up getting bought by Penguin Random House, which means our books are still alive in that traditional way. So Forged in Grace, my first novel, I was in the process of querying agents, and then a friend of mine and I decided to start this thing. This was 2012, ’13, this independent publishing collective. So we were going to act like a publisher but publish books. Basically it was people doing work trade. We had someone who did cover design and someone who could do layout and marketing and all these things, and we came together. So I did publish my novel that way, and actually it was the time when Amazon was still quite favourable to indie authors. You could really make a decent amount of money. Then my partner and I just… It didn’t last. There were a lot of different reasons why we didn’t, and it has nothing to do with the idea, which was totally working. I have really seen how the capitalist machine seems to continually come in and eat away at whatever profits there are for independent authors. I’ve seen authors have to become marketers. We went from being people who could write, and then someone else would handle that, to having all of us have to do it ourselves, and now content creators. So I think a lot of us feel really exhausted, which actually is not unrelated to the book of mine that’s coming out. So I worry. Of course, we haven’t even talked about AI, if we even want to, but I do worry a little bit about the future of publishing, but I’m not a pessimist in the sense that I don’t think it’s going away. Jo: Oh, no, absolutely, I agree. Changes, I think, are what this is all about. Well, let’s get into the book then. Let’s start with a definition. So what are you defining as midlife, and why is this such a change for many people? Jordan: It’s a very buzzword, midlife. So I will say it’s a mental state as much as an age, because a lot of people start calling themselves or saying they’re in midlife in their 30s, right? So it’s not a hard age, even though you might say it’s in your 40s or 50s. For me, it’s really the point at which I find people start to realise that they have less time ahead of them than behind. You might find yourself maybe a little past what I’m calling the striving stage of life, where you’re focused on building career and identity and family, and all of that. It also seems to coincide for people with multiple challenges at once. So maybe you’re dealing with health issues or perimenopause or aging, and maybe you’re helping your parents or your fledging teenage children, if you have children. So there’s a lot going on for people, it seems, at this stage of life, and I’ve interviewed 28 people for my book who range in age from 37 to 81. So there is definitely a wide range of age. Jo: Yes, I think that’s interesting. I almost wonder whether it is a realisation of changes. I mean, again, we’ll just say menopause because I feel like for me, that’s when it really kicked in, was there was a health hormonal shift, and I started feeling very different. I started questioning a lot of things, and so much came up for me that I almost felt was out of my control. I think that was the biggest thing that happened for me, was realising, “This is out of my control,” and I don’t particularly like that. It felt like there was a lot of grief at midlife, and you mentioned there parents. Obviously some people’s parents are dying, children are leaving. Is grief a big part of this, do you think? Jordan: Absolutely, and I like what you said about it often is a stage where people feel out of control of things, their bodies, their life circumstances. There’s also a little bit of a, did I do everything I wanted? What will the next X years of my life look like, if they can get there? Grief is a huge part of the transition, and I think grief is interesting. Right now, I’m in empty nest. I just fledged my son a month ago, and it did hit me harder than I thought it would, even preparing. So there’s these kinds of grief we don’t really give cultural credence to. You can call them disenfranchised grief, where nobody died, and in fact, the things happening could be conceived as positive if you let them. But a child moving out of the house and you having to completely rearrange your identity, there’s a grief involved in that. Or not seeing that child that you love so much. Aging, dealing with aging parents in a healthcare system that doesn’t offer supports, while you’re trying to be a creative person. Or the perimenopause thing is huge for a lot of people, because a lot of people were not told anything about this transition, and it can last 10 to 15 years for many people, and radically change your mind, your mental energy, your capacity, your executive functioning. It’s huge. So I definitely started writing this when that was happening to me, the perimenopause transition, but I also like it. As a creative person, I like the idea of a pause for anyone being a number of things that can happen in midlife. Jo: Yes, and I think that’s really important because, as women, that’s one thing, but men go through different things, and people who identify in different ways go through different things. So we’re not saying that it has to be specifically around menopause at midlife. I think there are lots of different ways that this can show up, and of course, this is a show for writers. You’re writing the book for writers. So in talking about creativity, let’s talk first about if people find that their creativity has just dried up, that it’s almost died. How can we learn to accept a fallow time, or perhaps accept and embrace a time of not plenty? Jordan: That’s a great question. First of all, I really looked into the idea of what fallow means, and you realise that a fallow period is not a dead period, it’s a germinating period. It’s necessary, right, for crops to come back. So I really love this metaphor of not seeing it as dead or gone, but as germinating. I took a lot of relief and inspiration from this, it only exists as an audiobook, by Clarissa Pinkola Estés. She’s the one who wrote Women Who Run With the Wolves, but she wrote a book called The Creative Fire, and she describes creativity as an infinite creative source that is never gone, but what happens is our access to it gets blocked. So when I conceive of a fallow period as something in me is blocking access to my creativity, not that the creativity is gone, that was the first key for me. I also recommend that people work backwards and ask themselves, what life experiences, frustrations, disappointments, what burdens have you been dealing with? There’s usually a path back to what is preventing you from having access. And I really find the first thing is you need to apply gentleness and patience with yourself, and second, honestly, it sounds silly, but really reframing this idea that your creativity is not gone. It’s not dead. It’s germinating. My therapist gave me the term rooting. She’s like, “Oh, you’re rooting,” like you’re putting down roots, but you don’t know what, if anything, is going to flower or bloom. I was like, “Oh, I’m rooting. I’m not dead.” So I think it’s a lot of reframing what we can do about it, rather than just conceive it. Jo: Yes, I remember listening to that audiobook. I remember her voice saying la chispa. Do you remember? La chispa. I don’t know if that means fire, but I remember it. I’ve listened to that, and you brought it up again. La chispa, yes. I feel like that Women Who Run With the Wolves is just such an excellent book that we come back to at different points in our lives. On other things, I feel like sometimes—you mentioned the word exhausted earlier—sometimes people are just exhausted. You are just tired. You’re fatigued, and perhaps you just need a break. It doesn’t need to be anything more than that, right? You can just say, “I’ve got a lot going on. Maybe I just need to not do anything.” Jordan: Absolutely. Actually, I find a lot of creative people are very driven in different ways, not necessarily ambition-wise, but driven to create or driven to express themselves. So sometimes that drive energy persists even when you don’t have the energy for it. So then we go into all this mental stuff about, “Well, something must be bad and wrong and broken,” rather than, “Oh, maybe I do need to be resting or conserving energy for myself right now.” I think really it’s having that confidence or trust that it’s going to come back that is hard for a lot of us at midlife. We really think it’s gone. I do think that this is a stage of life where really getting support is necessary, whatever that looks like. I understand that things like therapy are not always accessible to everyone for cost reasons or time, so maybe it’s your best friend or someone you see at the coffee shop or the gym or partner, anything. Or it’s two people who are both feeling creatively stuck and frustrated who say, “We’re just going to get together once a week and see what happens,” talk, laugh, that kind of thing. I just want to add that I really feel that if we’re relying on our usual, typical, or former ways of doing things at midlife, they often fail us. It often requires a shift. Jo: Yes, I also think that our mentors in books—I mean, you’ve mentioned there the Clarissa one, and of course your own book. I found when I needed to withdraw, I was reading a lot of books on the power of the older woman. Reclaiming the crone. I mean, I love this reclaiming language. The hag. There’s these words that we could reclaim around becoming older, and the cultures that respect elders, and what does it mean to move into that stage. I must have read 20 or 30 books in a period of a year of really trying to get to grips with things. I feel like we can find therapy in these book mentors, as I like to call them. Jordan: Yes. Absolutely. I don’t know where I would be if I hadn’t had book mentors most of my life. In fact, in a later chapter in the book, I quote Ursula K. Le Guin, who was obviously a science fiction writer, but notorious for really reclaiming older age. She has a whole essay on the crone, and really the beauty of that stage of life, which is what I’m now aspiring to, because you’ve gone through the hardship of midlife, but you come through with more wisdom, more certainty. Maybe just a little bit more, “Oh, yes, I’ve been through these ups and downs, and I know I can come out the other side.” Jo: So I guess on the one hand it can be, at that time, a fallow, it can be that time of exhaustion. As we say, this isn’t just a moment in time. This can go on for years. Sometimes it can be a quickening. There can be a desire to accelerate even, and also sometimes we might need some tough love. I think that might also help. So what are your recommendations for those who feel the need to shift up a gear, or who want to move forward? Jordan: Yes. I mean, I think one thing is not trying to do it all yourself. Seek out other people who you can connect with. For me, what got me out of my fallow period was I joined someone. We do a silent write and then we talk shop afterwards. It was a fellow writer. So I logged on at 8:00 in the morning and we all just got together and wrote, and then we talked. There was something about not isolating, I think, is key. So not isolating. Then I’m really just a big fan of trying something new. It’s that whole metaphor, right? If you’re doing the same thing, expecting different results. So if something has changed for us at midlife and we don’t feel the same and we can’t access our creativity in the same way, then we have to do something different. Another thing that I had to let go of was every time I sit down to write, it has to be purposeful. It’s going to become a book. It’s like, can you just play? What does it look like to write as play? That was a really new concept to me. Obviously I have joy in the writing process, but I was attaching it to a product. So that’s honestly one of my biggest pieces of advice drawn from my experience and others, is try something new. Be a little bit brave. Maybe it’s not brave, but don’t be afraid that everything is going to lead to something that’ll be hard, that’ll be scary. Let’s face it, nobody’s going to do it for us. There’s always that reminder. If you just sit around feeling bad and wonder when it’s going to stop, it may not stop on its own unless we try something new. Jo: Yes, reframing things. I think also as creative people, as writers, we do feel better if we are creating and writing. It may be that writing isn’t the thing you need right now. It may be that you want to get into, I don’t know, painting. I’ve been doing different things, like I did some stone carving, and I’m doing really random things, and not in a serious way. So as you say— Maybe writing for us is too serious, and so we need to just change it up a bit. Jordan: I had a lot of my interview subjects do that. They are like, “Well, when I can’t write, I paint. When I can’t paint, I knit.” I was really impressed at how many people will just keep that creative energy going in another form. I found that very inspiring, because while I don’t consider myself deeply creative in any other medium, it did make me think, what else could I do that feels creative? For some people that’s cooking food or, I don’t know, organising closets. I really don’t know, but there are ways to transmute that energy. Jo: Yes, and I mean, you mentioned there about trying something new in our writing as well, and I did find that my interest shifted, and I did a lot of long distance walking and I wrote a pilgrimage memoir, which is quite out of character. Then I also did a book on writing the shadow, that darker side of psychology. This did not fit with what people expected from me at all. I feel like it is scary, but we are also making money out of this, and when things don’t fit with what people expect of us, it can change things in terms of our business. So how do we deal with that? How do we lean into change but also bring our audience along? Or I guess just lose some of them. Jordan: Well, it’s interesting because I think that this relates to marketing ourselves, but I really think that authenticity is where it’s at. If you can present yourself as real, authentic, this is what I’m doing, this is what I’m interested in, that is very appealing to people, right? More than, well, this is the niche I’ve been in my whole career so I can’t break free from it. I love when a writer I’ve been following for years does something different, suddenly experiments and writes a new book. I actually find that very exciting as a reader. So to me that’s a lot of external pressures that say you have to stay, if you’re known for being a crime writer you have to stay a crime writer. That’s very much the publishing industry, the culture. That’s not true to how people are in real life. There’s a writer that I mention in the book, she’s Margaret Mead’s daughter. Of course, this is midlife, names go out of my head. It’ll come back to me before this is over. She talks about how in her interviews with people—so she researches people in midlife and beyond—most people’s real careers and creative lives are not a straight line. They don’t follow the neat plot, the hero’s journey, right? They actually are very meandering, particularly women’s. Women’s tend to be more meandering, probably because, yes, they interrupt their careers to have children. They caregive, all of these things. So I am really a big fan of let that meandering happen. Be open to that rather than, it has to be this way and only this way, because we don’t grow. That’s not a growing edge, right? If we just stay doing what we always did. Jo: Yes, and as you say, some people will come along with you. Also, obviously we’re a very similar age, and you tend to attract the people who are similar to you, and who are either going through similar things or recognise themselves in you. So I do agree with you. It is about being authentic. The problems only come when you try to hide that change, perhaps. I mean, I laugh at, sometimes you see author photos that were taken 30 years ago. You’re like, “I’ve met you. You just don’t look like that anymore.” Jordan: You don’t look like that. I know. I’m a big fan of truth in advertising in that regard, too. Oh, and the author, it’s Mary Catherine Bateson, so she was anthropologist Margaret Mead’s daughter. Jo: Well, on that, let’s just mention this, because I sent you written questions for this interview. Part of the reason I do that, one, obviously, I’m respecting the person I’m interviewing, and I want to show you how the interview’s going to go, and I never mean to catch people out. But also, as a woman in midlife, I forget things all the time. If we’re having a conversation and I forget where we’ve gone—I take notes and everything, but I need to write things down more. If I am having an interview myself, I write down notes, even about my own books. So this is something that’s changed. I used to be able to remember things a lot better. So this is something that I’ve had to actively do, and presumably you have, too, in order to continue to be the professional we’ve always been. It doesn’t mean we’re not allowed to forget things, but it’s almost like I am shifting my practices in order to help my midlife self. Jordan: Absolutely. That’s a really great way to put it. I talk about it in the book as adapting. We adapt ourselves. I use an example, one of my students who came to take my classes in his late 80s or early 90s, I kid you not, who was still treating himself as a student of writing. During the time he was in my class, he actually ended up having a stroke and had to relearn to speak in his 90s, and did, and write. So he was constantly adapting new techniques to be able to come back to his creative self, and he really inspired me. That’s a very extreme example, but I do the same thing. My desk is littered with Post-it Notes. My phone, I put anything you can possibly imagine as a reminder into my phone, with an alert. I’ve also accepted output has changed. So this idea of I used to be able to be so prolific, I don’t expect that of myself anymore. If I sit down to write, I meet myself where I am, and if I get some words out, great, I wrote. It’s a lot of that gentleness, just appreciating that I am different rather than trying to force my old modes upon myself, which doesn’t work anyway. So I can try, but it will fail. Then I’d be frustrated with myself, which was part of my midlife transition, was trying to do everything the same way, failing, being mad at myself, that whole journey. So I’m grateful to have moved beyond that and recognised that I have to move slower. I am less productive. I am narrowing the scope of my creative life, and that’s not a bad thing. Jo: Yes, and that’s not a bad thing. That’s the important statement there at the end. It’s funny that I feel the need to emphasise that, because why do I have to emphasise that? Because we’re just in this culture of obviously more must be better. So that’s the thing. I guess I’ve also felt a similar way in that I have a much better ability to say, “I don’t want to do that, so I won’t do that.” Or, I asked you if we could reschedule this interview because my energy just wasn’t there, and I know that I can’t do an interview like this without some energy, and that’s the way to serve the audience, and you were very graceful and said, “Of course.” So I think this, “I don’t want to do this, so I’m not going to,” rather than pushing into it. But then, of course, we have to sell books. We have to do marketing. So how do we balance these things? Jordan: That is the frustration. Well, first of all, you need to honour that feeling. I hate that it sounds cliché, but we have to honour that part of us that says, “I don’t have the energy to do that anymore, or in this way,” because if you ignore that, you’re going to end up sick or injured or frustrated or something. So the way that I have been doing it… It’s just a reality of marketing yourself as a writer that you must have a presence somewhere online, right? And you must put something out there to let people know where to find you. Unfortunately, there’s too much noise, too many writers, too much competing for people’s attention. So I realised the only way I can do it is when it reflects who I am at my core. Which means if I’m going to make videos, which I have been doing lately, they’re going to be goofy like me, right? I can’t do a serious, polished video. It’s not in my nature. If I am going to have to keep a Substack blog, which I do, and write content, it’s going to have to be about issues that are of interest to me at this time in my life. I also find the more that I can interweave my marketing with promoting other writers in some way, that feels really honest. So interviews, like you do, I do them on my Substack. That feels really good to me because then it’s not all about me, right? So I think that’s really the key, is finding this fit, and I think that in a way that’s actually what’s made a lot of content creators somewhat, let’s say, famous, is because they have found something that works for them. It’s comedy, it’s serious, whatever it is, it reflects them and it feels true to people, whether or not it is is another story. So for me it’s not so much truth, but afterwards, do I feel sick inside, or do I feel like, no, I was pretty much myself? Then I can do it, and then it’s actually fun. I also have to say, I’ve never been very tech handy or gifted, and I was like, “I’m goint to learn Canva. I’m going to learn edits on reels.” I’m just not going to be that person who says, “I’m too old to learn,” or, “I’ve done it this way for so long, I can’t do it another way.” That’s actually been really fun and freeing. I didn’t expect that. Jo: Well, yes, you have to learn something new occasionally. I mean, even this podcast, which I’ve been doing since 2009, how I did it technically back then and how I do it technically now is completely different because the tools have changed. It’s still the same RSS feed, amazingly, even though people don’t even talk about those anymore. So, yes, we do have to learn some things, but we don’t have to learn everything, I guess. We don’t have to do everything. You talk there about being yourself and authentic, and you have a chapter in the book about unmasking the self and this vulnerability, which can lead to creative breakthroughs, but this can also be really difficult. Certainly the hardest bit of the time I was going through the early perimenopause and the depressive end of things, before I found HRT, which I know doesn’t work for everyone, but worked for me. I didn’t talk about it then, and it took a couple of years before I was able to talk about these things. So how can we embrace vulnerability but still protect ourselves from the world when we need protecting? Jordan: It’s interesting, because I’ve thought a lot about this. I think that we misconstrue vulnerability as only baring our soul, or baring our soft parts, where we’re open to judgement and attack. The more I think about it, I actually think that authenticity can be vulnerable, and also being more direct. Just being like, “This is what I will allow. This is what I won’t allow. This is who I am. This is who I’m not,” is a form of vulnerability. That might sound strange, but it’s a way of saying, “This is what I’m allowing you to see of myself.” It’s an honesty, I think. I find with online stuff, a lot of people are getting to the realisation they have to protect, I think, more from a privacy standpoint. Not tell too much that leaves you open to attack, or leaves you open to having somebody actually come in and steal information from you. So the way that I’ve conceived of it for myself now is vulnerability is to be honest and direct, but that doesn’t mean giving everything away. I guess this word curation rolls around right now. I don’t think curating is a bad thing. It’s like, I’m going to tell you as much as I feel comfortable telling you. In this book, I call it partially like a memoir, because I reveal personal things about myself, but I’m revealing them very carefully, let’s put it that way. I’m also trying to protect other people’s stories. My family, if I’m talking about them, I’m being very careful about how I talk about them. I’m also like, I have to say something about me. I can’t talk about this experience but not share my own process, right? So it is a line we walk. I have a couple of interview subjects who found for them, the way they are vulnerable is to transform their personal truth into fiction. So they tell real truths, but they fictionalise it, because that way the truth is still coming through, but they don’t have to do that whole soft belly open to the masses, if that makes sense. Jo: Yes. I think for me, it was just time. When I read some of what I wrote then, and even what I put into my pilgrimage memoir, for example, I’m not that person anymore. There was a period of time when that happened, and I read it and I’m like, “Goodness me,” but the distance helps. You can share what happened later on in a way that almost feels like fiction, even though it happened. Jordan: I like that. I like the fact, too, so in memoir there’s this concept of two voices. There’s that voice of the moment, the lived experience, and then the voice of greater experience that comes later, the meaning maker. So there’s a nice tension that can exist when you look back at who you were, or writing that came from a different time, and you bring the version of you today. I find I have a lot of compassion for my former self. I can see how hard I was working, or how hard I was trying to impress someone, or any of those things. I think if you can be compassionate towards your older self, meaning even a month ago, then that can come through, too. It’s interesting. Jo: Yes, and we’ve been all gentleness and kindness and lovely, but let’s get into anger, because anger and rage is also part of grief as well. I was thinking about this, and I have a little mantra that I use on difficult days, which is, “Don’t burn it all down.” Literally sometimes I just say to myself, “Don’t burn it all down.” That might be a day I don’t do an interview, or that might be a day I don’t go anywhere near the internet, and I don’t go anywhere near social media. I just try and get away, go for a walk or something. This is difficult, because sometimes you should burn it all down, and I do struggle with this, too. When do we know that radical change is needed? And when should we go slow and not kill it all off? Jordan: That’s a good question. It’s going to be individual, right? But what your question made me think about is that the people I’ve spoken to find that at this stage of life, I describe it as a heightened sense of either more or less. Either there’s a lack they can no longer sit on and it’s causing frustration and anger, or there’s a too muchness, like burnout or overwhelming responsibilities. So couple that with hormonal changes for a lot of people, and it’s a fire keg. I myself have gone through it. I will say in the early stages, when that kicks in on a hormonal level, a lot of people find that it almost has to take you by surprise, I think. You almost discover you’re going through it by having a rage reaction. That’s my experience. Once you do, then it becomes our responsibility to not spew anger at everyone. So it is about finding ways to channel it that are healthy. Whether that’s, “All right, I feel it coming on. I’m taking a walk. I’m going into nature where I can be my full self, or I can let it simmer down.” I also find I’m more honest and more direct as a result of it, so I don’t check all of it. But it’s a good question, because I feel it too, and there have been times it literally felt like somebody flipped a switch in my back, and rage emerged, or frustration, whatever the feeling is. So I think it’s really paying attention to yourself. I hate the word triggers, but let’s just use it here to understand what’s triggering it. You’ve got this baseline, perhaps changed hormonally. You may be going through a lot at midlife. What in the moment triggers that urge? And see if you can either avoid it, or can you remove yourself from it somehow. I’m just going to be honest, people in midlife are going to lash out, and sometimes the best thing other people can do is get out of the way. I am a big fan of saying it is our responsibility to not wield it inappropriately, I should say, but acknowledge that it’s real. Jo: Yes, I mean, maybe sometimes it is a good feeling. There’s righteous anger for things that we should be angry about in the world. It’s just sometimes it doesn’t come up that way. Sometimes it might not be so much, and I think for me, it’s when do things come up over and over again? And are there ways that it could be changed? This is not something that I get angry about, but this podcast, for example, regular listeners will know that for a long time, for, what, 15 years or something, it was on a Monday, and I got to this point where I thought, “I need to kill this podcast because I’m working every weekend,” because I often was, I need to record the introduction. So my attitude was, “I just need to burn it all down, kill the podcast after all these years.” Then I took some time out to think about it and moved it to a Wednesday. Jordan: Yes. Jo: And it was like, “I’m sorry, how did I not figure this out ages ago, that all I needed to do was move it?” And so if you do feel, people listening, if you feel like, “Oh, I just have to destroy this whole thing because I need…” Whatever it is that you need, sometimes there is another answer. It might feel obvious later on, but perhaps you just couldn’t see it at the time. Jordan: Absolutely, and I’m trying to think how to put this, but there’s a version of this process where we go through this change in our emotions that is a little bit out of our control, and we have to just go, “Wow, I’m changing, and in the process of that change I might behave in ways I don’t prefer to continue behaving,” right? It might happen, and then there’s a reaction. I think we really just have to be aware and patient, and then learn to do things differently, like you’re saying. We have to change in relationship to this change. We can’t try to keep being the old version of ourselves who was nice and agreeable and didn’t ever get angry. I know so many women, and also non-binary and gender fluid folks, who are just like, “What? Who am I? Where did this come from?” You’re like, “My operating system is actually different now,” which is fascinating. Jo: It really is fascinating. Well, as we come towards the end, let’s also reframe this whole narrative. I feel like we talked a bit about this, about reclaiming the crone and all of this, but how can we make this next phase incredible? I’m 51. I think we’re a similar age. I’m fully intending to march into at least my 90s. So we’ve got many years ahead of us. It is not all downhill from here. I lift weights, I do a lot of stuff, and I feel like this should be an upswing in a different way. What can we put in place so this positive aspect becomes true? Jordan: Well, I think the first thing is we need to not see it as midlife crisis. I hate the word crisis because it suggests something negative, and I like to think of it as a midlife transition. It’s really, I think, only crisis in that, first of all, we scare ourselves, but when we don’t get the support, or we don’t heed the call that our psyche is asking of us, or we buy other people’s attitudes about what midlife should be. I am a big fan of this great book by Sara Lawrence-Lightfoot called Third Chapters or Into the Third Chapter, and she writes about people who decide—and I think this is part of it, it’s intentional. You have to decide, this third chapter of my life is going to be something wonderful, and you decide, what is the thing I want to do? What am I going to focus on? So I think, first of all, just making that mindset shift is really important, and it’s all the things we’ve been talking about. It’s trying something new. It’s figuring out what makes you thrive and feel excited at this time of life. It’s acknowledging and honouring that you feel different, and mourning what you’ve lost, but also looking at what you may be gaining going forward. So I think just so much of it is about attitude. If you decide that you’re in crisis and that it’s all misery, it’s harder to make those steps forward. If you see yourself as germinating something new—and allow yourself to be surprised—and the only way to do that, in my opinion, is to try something new, to do things a little differently, and embrace all the wisdom you’re about to gain. Jo: Yes, and all the other people who are on that journey with you. I think your friendships shift as well. I was walking in Portugal last week and met a group of older women, and it was just such a laugh. It was just really fun. Just recognising the different parts of life, and that the kind of laugh I would have had with women in my 30s would have been a very different kind of laughter. Jordan: I love that. I love it. Keep company with people you want to be more of, or more like. I think that’s really important, too. Jo: Great. So where can people find you and your books online? Jordan: Anywhere books are sold, actually, but you can go to my website, JordanRosenfeld.net. I like to promote, if you’re going to online shop for books, I like bookshop.org, or go to your local indie bookstore. Or you can buy many of my books directly from SibyllinePress.com. All of my Writer’s Digest books are available through anywhere. I also like to draw people to my Substack, which is called Writing in the Pause, and that’s JordanWriteLife.substack.com. Jo: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Jordan. That was great. Jordan: Thank you. I really appreciate it. It was fun. The post Writing And Creativity In Midlife With Jordan Rosenfeld first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you design your year around seasons of work and rest instead of waiting for financial freedom? And how do you build the money confidence to take extended time off when you come from a scarcity mindset? Brian Herriot shares his ideas on time freedom after a career as a financial advisor and consultant. In the intro, The end of the spectrum [Seth Godin, Akimbo]; List of money books; Lessons learned from 15 years as a full-time author entrepreneur; My author timeline since 2005; Producing AI-narrated audiobooks with Simon Patrick. Plus, please do my short How to Market a Book survey (by 7 Oct); and here’s my Cathedral Zero Trailer. This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Brian Herriot is a financial advisor, professional speaker, and the author of Time Freedom: Rethink Your Work and Money to Create a Life You Love Now. He’s also the host of The Time Freedom Podcast. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why writing, speaking and podcasting can build authority without social media What time freedom is, and how it differs from work-life balance and financial freedom How to design your year around seasons of work and rest The three money personalities: minimiser, manager and maker How to build flexibility into your work whether employed or self-employed How a book that leaves nothing out can be the foundation of a business You can find Brian at timefreedom.life. Transcript of the interview with Brian Herriot Jo: Brian Herriot is a financial advisor, professional speaker, and the author of Time Freedom: Rethink Your Work and Money to Create a Life You Love Now. He’s also the host of The Time Freedom Podcast. So welcome to the show, Brian. Brian: Thank you so much for having me. Jo: Yes, this is a great topic. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing. Brian: I am a financial advisor, and now I am an author officially. I found writing just short of three years ago. I was actually doing some research on behalf of my wife, because she’s always been an incredible writer, in the fiction side of the world. So I was researching different writing programmes and things like that, and came across one that I thought, “Hmm, this is for nonfiction, and boy, it sounds very interesting. I think it’s something maybe I need to do.” The reason why I was looking at all, even for myself, is I was transitioning into a new line of work, and it was work where you needed to develop some authority and visibility. Everything everybody was telling me was that I needed to do a lot of social media, which I did not want to do. I forget where I heard it, but they’re like, “Or you could do the author speaking thing.” And I thought, “Ooh, that sounds a lot better.” So that’s the path that I ended up on. Jo: Interesting. Can you tell us what that different path you were looking at was? Brian: Well, a lot of what you see, at least online, if you’re to develop a personal brand and try to attract business—in this case into my financial advisory firm—everyone says, “Well, you need to develop an online presence.” In the business world from a long time ago, I had used LinkedIn, but not for anything like developing a personal brand. So then all the advice started turning to, “Oh, well then you need to get onto Instagram and TikTok.” I don’t know, I’ve always viewed all that scrolling as a waste of time, and I’d rather put my mind towards something more productive. So I was just so apprehensive to try and get into that space, that I just kept putting it off and putting it off and putting it off until I heard a podcast. I’ve always listened to lots of podcasts, and I heard a podcast that said, “Well, instead of developing authority that way, the other path that you could take would be through writing.” Because it’s obviously longer form, you can put your thinking into it. Then that can lead to help getting into speaking as well. Between those two you can develop some of the same authority that you could if you went the social media route. There was also the podcasting part, which I do love, and that’s been one of the most fun things I’ve been doing lately. So I do podcasting, writing and speaking instead of social media. Jo: I love that, and I know a lot of people listening love that too. I don’t think this is an age thing, I think this is an aptitude for short-form video thing. I’m the same as you. I’m not really into the short-form video. For people listening, this is an audio-only podcast partly because I don’t want to do video. Brian: And that’s beautiful. That’s the beauty of working on your terms, right? Which we’ll talk a lot about. Jo: Yes, exactly. So I love that from the beginning you were like, “No, I’m going to go the long-form route and reach people that way,” because you absolutely are. I personally would always rather read a book than watch a whole load of snippets or video online to learn about this kind of topic. So let’s get into the book. Let’s start with that concept of time freedom. What is time freedom, and how can we change our mindset to believe that it’s even possible? Because it feels like we’re working harder than ever. Brian: The way that I like to explain this is first by discussing what time freedom is not, because of how it fits. And I have this right up front in the book. There’s this whole concept of work-life balance, right? And work-life balance to me, at least, coming from the professional and the employed worlds, is that you’re just stealing an hour during the day here to then make it up later in the night. Sftentimes, at least when I was living with work-life balance, I was probably more busy than I even was if I would’ve just worked straight from 8:00 to 5:00. It’s very week by week focused, day by day focused, and that is not time freedom. On the other side is this idea of financial freedom, which time freedom also is not in my mind. Financial freedom is where, I mean, the simplest thing is you’re either retired or you’re independently wealthy or in some other way you do not have to work anymore. So you’ve got this absolute freedom, which for me is boring, because I get a lot of joy from the work that I do. So in the middle is the idea, I think, of time freedom, where you do still have to work, but you’re able to design work in a way that works for you. So you can do it on your terms. There’s a lot of choice. There’s flexibility if you want it, and all of those things. I think that somebody that optimises for time freedom looks at their year and says, “This is how I want my year to go.” There’s a seasonality to it. In my personal experience, I do most of my work work, the work that I need to do to get paid and live, in what would be the equivalent of the school year, because my wife and I have a son. He’s a sophomore in high school, and that’s just the way that our life is lining up right now. Then during the summer, we’re fortunate enough to have this not so great cabin on a beautiful lake back where we both grew up. And in the last five years, we’ve designed our life so that we can go back there and live a different season during the summer. I’ve always loved summer, and during that time, that’s when we rest and relax, and we water-ski, and we fish, and we do all the fun things that you could do at a cabin. Then also, there’s this time when you’re starting to think bigger or differently or make creative connections about things in the work that you do. I find it really rejuvenating, so that when I come back in the quote-unquote school year, then I can get back to work and do some really interesting things. So the person who pursues time freedom is really optimising their life around this freedom and flexibility. Maybe they’re working longer and later into life, but they’re doing it in a way that works for them. They’re not necessarily optimising to steal that extra hour that day, or optimising for wealth, which would be the financial freedom path. Jo: Yes, I find this very interesting. I like that it’s not financial freedom because I’m an investor, as I mentioned to you, and many of us are. But that tends to take more time. So if you’re aiming for financial freedom, especially if you start investing later in life, you’re not going to get that at 45 or 50 or maybe even 60. So defining this as separate is really good, because you’re saying, “Well, you can start changing things now, and yes, you might have to work a bit longer, but if you love your work, it’s not a problem.” I want to come back to this idea of seasonality and planning your year around this seasonality idea. How does that work with the potential of other people’s timelines or other people’s possibilities, and serendipity? I have some plans, but then, like this year, this thing came up. It was just a very intuitive thing and has changed the next few months in a completely different direction and blown all my plans out the water. So how do you balance the planned seasonality with serendipity? Brian: Well, first what I want to mention is, if you can figure out a way to organise your year so that you have these extended periods of time off, that’s a wonderful thing, and it’s not something that I think you can do with a snap of the fingers. When I had this realisation that I even wanted to do this, of course it wasn’t even me that came up with it, it was my wife. This was during a time when the stock market had crashed, and I was suggesting to her that we were not going to be financially free any time soon. When she asked me what financial freedom looked like to me, I said that I still had wanted to work, just more flexibly, and she said, “Well, let’s do it now,” right? So back to my point, we couldn’t do it now. We had to get the money confidence to be able to basically figure out how could you work for nine months and have that support 12 months of living. So it’s not immediate, but once you get there, the way that I have looked at it compared to serendipity is, if I can structure the work that I do, and again, it’s so dependent on the type of work that your listener does do, right? In my particular case, when I was able to do this, I was doing independent consulting projects. So I was able to line up projects that would never overlap in the summer. Sometimes they would go into June because it had to, right? But I did the best that I could and tried to be as flexible as it was. Then when I had the time, then I was able to do whatever came up during that period of time. Usually it started as just taking a break, resting and not doing so much work. But by the end of those three months, you really start to want to get back into things. I think you do have to just go with what your body’s telling you and what your mind is telling you. I don’t know if that answers your specific question, but when you say something happens, right, and you want to take advantage of that opportunity, you’ve got to do it, right? I think flexibility is probably the value that comes through the most in the book. Even when you think you’ve figured it out and you finally got that perfect seasonal year, well, something will come up and happen. I think part of what time freedom is, is being able to take advantage of the opportunity when it comes up. Jo: Yes, being able to choose. That’s the key point. I mean, I’m in a situation like you where I run an independent business, so I do get to choose. It’s just funny because I read this and I’m like, I do have time freedom, but I fill my time completely. I do have enough time, but I fill it with more and more creative projects, and I’m not very good at stopping. So while I do have flexibility, I also have a very full calendar. Long-term listeners will know I’ve asked this of other people as well, and I was very interested that you took a transformative sabbatical in 2023. This is something I keep coming towards and then backing away from. Can you tell us a bit more about that [sabbatical]? What was that, and how did you manage that? Brian: My wife and I took a trip in, I think it was 2015 or so. We went to Italy for just two weeks. I mean, you could easily spend two years, I feel, in Italy and still feel like you missed out on things. But our vacation was so packed. It was very typical of the American vacation, I would say. I remember coming back from that vacation going, “You know, I’m more exhausted now than I was when we left.” So we always wanted to figure out a way to do some slower travel. The way that it worked out, after we had our revelation about how we wanted to design our lives, was that we were going to take what ended up being four weeks. So I knew that I was going to have my first fully free summer off in 2023, and we decided to purposely go slow, and we travelled in and around Portugal for four weeks. It’s funny, on the flight back when we were going through customs, the gentleman asked how long we’d been in Portugal, and we said, “Four weeks.” He’s like, “What did you do for that?” Like, what did you do? Jo: I love Portugal, by the way. It’s great. Brian: Lovely. “Why were you here for so long?” But the beauty of it was, if we had a day when we weren’t feeling up to going to see something, we just didn’t. It was wonderful. That was just a wonderful experience. We were able to line it up so that we met other friends, so we almost had a vacation within a vacation. We had an au pair that we hadn’t seen for years who flew over from France and met us. It was just, I imagine, very not typical of the American work lifestyle that I’m familiar with. It was just anything but that, and it was just wonderful. It really pulled our whole family out of the conventional way of thinking, and that was incredible for us, and really then triggered how we’ve spent the last few years of our lives. We haven’t had that same long trip yet. Part of it has to do with now our son’s in high school and he needs to be here at home around his friends. But he’ll be off to college soon and then we can go do it again. Jo: Yes, it’s so interesting, isn’t it? Sometimes you have to really step away from your normal life and the grind of it in order to think differently. It’s quite funny because as a Brit and a European myself— I actually find coming over to America is a way to almost change my mindset. So it’s often just going into a different culture, perhaps. Brian: Yes, absolutely. I think part of this whole living with time freedom aspect for me is just leading a more interesting life. I owe this really to my wife. I think I always, through schooling and coming out of college, I just almost had these blinders on, like, well, you’re supposed to just get to work and do your work, and this is what you do. She’s the one who’s always asked me, why are we doing this? Why could we not experience something a little bit different? And that’s what makes for an interesting life. Jo: Yes, and also from what you’ve said, you’re not spending up big time. You don’t sound like you’re having extravagant times at the lake or when you’re travelling. So I often think that people feel like you have to have so much money in order to do something. I remember being in, oh, it must have been New York, and I was talking to someone and she said, “Oh, it’s my dream to go to New Orleans,” and I’d recently been there. I was like, “Well, why haven’t you been? It’s really easy. You’re in America. You could just fly there.” I’ve even taken trains in America, which I know a lot of Americans haven’t. But there are trains, and all of this. I was like, “Well, why haven’t you been?” It’s like people have in their minds all these barriers. Money is a big barrier, right? But you don’t need as much as you think, perhaps. Brian: It’s true. There’s all of the series of podcasts and blogs and everything about how, when you do this long travel or slow travel, I think is what they call it, you don’t have to stay at hotels. You could stay at an Airbnb and rent a place for two or three months, and it’s far less per day than it costs. The analysis that I’ve seen is how sometimes if you, say, maybe rented out your house back in America when you were going to Europe, and then you did your travelling, it’s actually cheaper to go and take a long trip than just stay put. You actually make money on it. I mean, of course, it all depends, but it’s eye-opening. Jo: Yes, you mentioned Portugal. We’re actually going to Portugal walking in a couple of weeks, and Portugal, for example, is much cheaper than Italy a lot of the time. So it also depends on where you go. Coming back to the book, you mentioned a few minutes ago money confidence. In the book, you have these money personalities, and many of my listeners as creatives and authors, there’s quite a lot of scarcity mindset in the author community, fear of financial things. So maybe you could just talk about these money personalities and how we get to money confidence. Brian: The track that I took in the book was, before I could just say, “Oh, go live time freedom and have inconsistent income and take these extended periods of time off,” I couldn’t do it without addressing how I felt, which was like, “Well, can I afford this?” So the money piece of it is extremely important. The money personalities is something that I feel like I learned far too late in life. How I describe money personalities, and there are different ways of talking about this, but it’s based on how you were raised and experiences that you’ve had with money from when you were a child, in your family, and then what happened in early life. How has that impacted you behaviourally in terms of how you view money? So for example, growing up, we lived in a small rural part of the Midwest, and so we had money. We didn’t have a lot of money, but I can remember every Saturday morning my mom clipping coupons, right? Because that’s how we bought our groceries. So I do come from this, let’s get the most value out of everything that I buy, and I’m going to restrain my spending because who knows if I’m going to have enough in the future. A constraints mentality. Whereas I’ve met other people now that I’ve been an adult whose parents had their own business, and they had booms and busts, and so there were good times and bad times. So when they get money, they spend it, so that they can enjoy it. I realise that people come with this—I don’t want to say baggage because it’s a bad thing—but people come with these experiences that influence how they think about what’s possible as it relates to money. I think that for one, people need to understand what that is for them and how that works. I also think that you can use it then to your advantage in figuring out how to gain the money confidence to step off into a life of time freedom. So the three that I really highlight in the book are, the one that is called, what I call the money minimiser, which is the individual who doesn’t like to think about money or would rather not think about money. Money is not a big part of their life, or they feel constrained by money. I have elements of this in my background. And in this case, a lot of times you may not need as much money to live off of to be happy, which is actually a huge advantage, because if you don’t need as much money to live on, then you don’t have to go save up as much money, or you don’t need to make as much money. The other type is the money manager, and this is someone who’s much more into saving and investing and understanding how all this works. This is the type of person that a financial advisor loves to address, because they have money to invest. This is someone who’s getting into their 401(k) right out of, in their first job immediately, and compounding their wealth over 40 years. It sounds like you have a little bit of this in you based on what you were saying. And there’s some advantages to that, too. Then there’s someone like my son, who despite all of the saving and investing in our family, he wants nothing to do with it. He believes that if he wants more money, he’ll just go figure out a way to make more money. So this is the money maker. It’s the entrepreneurial type, the person who’s in sales, the person who can manifest money. All of these different types of money personalities, I think if it is you, there’s ways that you can leverage those to figure out how to make money work for you so that you can have time freedom. Jo: That’s really interesting. I think we have a money journey. I know some people don’t like the word journey, but I like it. I come from a very scarce background, poor. Let’s just say it. We were poor, for a while. Then, over time, things changed between various family members. So I was a minimiser just by upbringing, and then I discovered the maker, and I manifested, and I worked my butt off and did all of that and understood that you can make money. You can earn it and make it in different ways. And then I learned about investing and then became more of that manager. I absolutely was afraid of feeling stupid, so I wondered if you might address that, because this is what stopped me for a long time. I’m a pretty smart person, at least I think I am. I can learn things, but I just found the financial world just made me feel stupid. So I minimised it because I was like, “Well, if I don’t, I’m not going to understand it, therefore I’ll just dismiss it.” That fear of feeling stupid, and other people might have fear of judgement or fear of all these different things. So can you talk about that fear, and is the financial world really that difficult? Brian: It’s so unfortunate. The reason people feel stupid is because I think the financial industry wants you to feel that way, so that you then need their help to manage your money. It’s full of acronyms and this and that and the other thing, and it is not that difficult. I think there’s a little bit of math involved, and numbers. I think if people lean more to the other side of their brain, there tends to be a little bit of fear there. I believe that there are basic concepts that can be understood, like if you were to invest in something that covers a lot of stocks, it’s called an index, right? And if you keep the costs low on it, you’re going to earn much more money. I feel like there’s 10 things that you could learn and it would get you 90% of the way there. It’s just that you need to find the right resources to explain it to you in a way that’s understandable. I’ll tell you, this book is the lifestyle/entrepreneurship/money book, which is a unique combination. The money chapters are some of those that I had to revisit twice as much as the rest of them, because it was so important to me that there was not a lot of acronyms and difficulty getting through it. I really wanted to break it down to the basics. Hopefully you felt that was the case when you read through those chapters, because it’s so easy to make it sound complicated so that then people feel that they need the support of the person who’s explaining it in the complicated manner. Jo: Yes, exactly, and I totally agree with you. When I discovered the low fee index funds, I was like, sorry, what if I just put some money in that, that’s a good way to start? And I was like, really? Okay, then. That’s strange. I think I had overcomplicated it in my mind, and as you say, the industry does that in a way, and the publishing industry does it too. I mean, you’ve obviously been learning loads of stuff about publishing. In every single niche area, there’s language that shuts out other people. And also I feel like, as a British person in the UK, obviously depending on the country you’re in, there’s different language as well, and yet so many of the books are American. So for example, your Roth IRA is an ISA here, and your 401(k) is a SIPP. And then someone in Australia, it’s something different. Someone in Canada, it’s something different. So that also makes it complicated, whereas once you can do some mapping and go, oh, okay, when in your book you say an IRA or a 401(k), this is what it is in my country, it simplifies it. Brian: Yes, absolutely. I did take special care at the beginning of the book to say I’m coming at this from an American angle. Jo: Yes. But then I would also say, I was saying this to my husband the other day, I’m very grateful, and I know this isn’t true for every country, but I’m very grateful that I can invest in American indexes and stocks and all of that kind of thing. I think you can invest globally as well as earn money globally, and I think that’s really exciting. As an individual person, I can do that, and I’ve got investments in Australia because I lived there for a while, and that is actually a real privilege to be able to invest that way. I don’t know how many Americans invest outside of America. Is that something you talk about? Brian: The only way that I’ve really seen it is through an American-based fund that invests in foreign companies in foreign countries. But no, not by buying something from the Australian market, for example. You made me realise I need to create a little cheat sheet that just shows, okay, we’re talking a company retirement account. What is it called in all of these countries? Wouldn’t that be nice? Just a nice little cheat sheet for people. I’m going to do that. Jo: Yes, because most of the time it’s really a one-to-one, because as you said, it’s not that complicated. When I was learning all about this, I was in Australia, and just so much of the information is from Americans, so you have to do this translation in your brain. So that’ll be a super useful cheat sheet. Okay. So in terms of other things, you’ve mentioned obviously enjoying your work, but you talk about different ways to build flexibility into your work so it’s not all or nothing. So what are some of the ways that people might build that flexibility? Brian: I think this is one where you have to think, “Okay, am I employed or am I self-employed?” Because I think there is a big distinction there in terms of what you’re able to do. Again, shout-out for early readers of books, but the early readers of my book suggested that in addition to just saying, “Oh, live by a seasonal schedule and take three months off in the summer,” they said, “What are some other things that we can do to get toward that,” right? So that we can take incremental steps. So some of these ideas can be done by anyone that’s working in a more typical, employed position, and others might need to be if you’re in an entrepreneurial scenario. I feel like a lot of it comes down to how you can structure the work. So at least in America, more and more these days, there are more companies, and usually they’re the smaller and the mid-sized ones, where you can find companies that are doing four by 10-hour schedules. So you’re working four days and having three days off, which then gives you a Friday every week to do something that you want to do, or start to build a skill that you could then turn into something that you could do independently, like starting as a side hustle and then moving into something different like that. Other early strategies that I’ve seen people do, just to experience what it’s like to take an extended period of time off, and especially in America this isn’t done that much, is to take a two-week trip that you have over the holidays and put a week on the front of it and a week at the end of it and have a full four weeks off. This could be during a time of year that’s usually a little slower anyway. So it’s a lot easier to perhaps have your manager approve that. These are just a couple of ideas. On the self-employed side, I have seen more than a couple of people now work this schedule where they do three weeks on and one week off, and then three weeks on and one week off, and they’ve just figured out how to put the systems in place in their business to allow for that one week to be away. I guess if you’re just taking off for a week every three weeks or a week every month, you’re never so far away from the work that needs to get done. It’s just a different style. What happens is, if you can do some of these different techniques and then you add them all up, it almost adds up to the amount of time of a full three months off. So again, you just have to test and try it out and do these different strategies based on the type of work that you do and the place of employment that you have, to see what might work. Jo: And also almost just plan it, like I said before about that person who wanted to go to New Orleans. Choose a time next year, like six months’ time or nine months’ time, and— Just book a flight. It doesn’t have to be that hard, does it? Brian: No, that’s right. And there’s other things… Now, I was talking schedules, but there’s other things that you can try to start to create work that’s more flexible. For example, something that often happens in America at least is, you’re working in a corporate setting, somebody retires, but that person has so much skill and knowledge about the business that then they immediately turn around and are hired back as an independent consultant. Early in my career, I just saw this happen all the time, and I remember thinking, “Why do they have to wait until they turn 65 and retire before they do that?” Couldn’t you just say, “Hey, I’ve decided to leave my corporate position, but I’m going to become an independent consultant because I have a valuable set of skills, and I’m going to turn around and just contract back to where I used to work initially,” as that first step. That’s an interesting technique. You had highlighted the idea of a hobbyist entrepreneur. This is usually the one that a lot of existing retirees will do right out of the bat. I met a friend of my wife’s parents, who had a very successful corporate career, and as soon as he finished up, again, people that are productive, I think, struggle when they immediately retire. So he’s like, “I need to figure out something to do,” so he flexed his creative side. They lived in Northern Wisconsin, where fishing is a big thing. So he would craft these large fish mouths out of wood. He would make these wooden fish that were very creative and very cool. They would have golf tees for teeth and stuff like that. So you could sell them to people that like golf. He created them for all of his friends, and then he ended up with some sort of Etsy store where he sold a bunch of these. Then after a while he’s like, “Eh, now it’s too much like a job, so I’m going to do something different.” It’s just little ways that you can make money here and there that allow you to work on some things that you are interested in. Jo: Yes, and it’s interesting because the other thing about the retire and live off your pension idea is that the assumption is you’ll never earn any money ever again, and so you’ll just be drawing down on that money. Even as you say, like that guy with the wooden fish, if you can make even an extra 5,000 in a year or an extra 10,000 in a year, you don’t have to draw that down from the pot of money that you’ve saved or invested, or your pension or whatever. So that actually means that it can last longer. So I feel like people forget that even these smaller amounts of money, which you can make as an author as well, or a speaker as you say— These are things that just mean your retirement can potentially be better financially as well. Brian: It does, and another thing that it gives you is the ability, when maybe the market is down for two years, and it’s hard to pull money out of your savings when it is negative, right? In those months, or in those years, or whatever it happens to be, you say, “Oh, well maybe I’m going to do my little side gig twice as much this year, because that’ll allow me to spend that money instead of having to pull it out of a down market.” Jo: Exactly. So we do talk about the business of being an author on this show. And at the beginning you mentioned that writing this book was part of developing authority so that maybe you can also get speaking. So how does this book fit into your business? Is it purely business card authority, or is it designed as an income stream as well? And any advice for other people who want to do something similar? Brian: Yes. It’s so interesting you said the phrase, like a better business card concept. When I think of that, I think of some of the places that will teach you how to write a book in a weekend or a month or three months or something like that. I was very wary of that. I really wanted to have a book that stood on its own. So I think of my book as more than a business card certainly, but something that’s really the foundation of my business. So here’s how it flows for me. The ultimate product that I sell is I invest people’s money for them at half the cost, because that’s very important to me, and in a way that is commensurate with somebody that wants to live this type of lifestyle. So that’s ultimately what my service offering is. The way that people enter my world is, I have a quiz, a little nine-question quiz. That’s my little lead product that I use. But that gets them interested in this idea of time freedom. If they come across time freedom or they are interested in financial freedom, and they’re searching around for a book, the book is the main thing. I’ll tell you, I’ve left nothing out of the book. The book contains everything that I ever did, everything that I ever do for clients. It’s all there. I learned that from somebody early in the process, which is, you don’t want to hold anything back in a book, a business-related book. Because, I don’t know, it’s just not right. The thing is, some people will go and run with it, which is great. But some people need accountability, or they need someone to hold their hand, which is fine. Or they in some way need to connect with you, and that is then where you offer the next level. So somebody could read my book and do everything themselves, or I also, a few times a year, offer a group coaching programme where basically we go through the book. We prepare what I call a Time Freedom Plan, which is like a financial plan, with the individuals in the group. And again, it’s crazy. There’s nothing that I’m helping with that’s not already in the book. So we go through the concepts. We prepare our Time Freedom Formula. We use the Time Freedom Calculator that I have that’s, again, available for free. Anyone can use it, but we work on all these things together to prepare a Time Freedom Plan. A Time Freedom Plan is what ultimately gives you the money confidence to live this lifestyle. So you project the money that you’re going to earn and spend through the rest of your life to give you confidence that you’re not going to run out, and then that allows you to step off into time freedom in a year or three years or 10 years or whatever it takes. Then as part of that process, there are a certain number of people that will have some money that needs to be invested and managed in a way, and those people can turn into customers of mine on the investment management side. So that’s how it flows. So I have a huge goal to just get this book out to as many people as possible, because I want to help as many people as possible, of course, but then also some small percentage of the people that read the book will ultimately want to work with me. Jo: No, that’s great, and that is the textbook ladder that a nonfiction author does. I also love that you’ve put everything into the book. I think it’s super useful. I really enjoyed it. I think it’s got some good questions in. Even if you are, I guess, someone who is already investing like me, it’s good to think about the time freedom as well as the financial side. So where can people find you and the book and everything you do online? Brian: Well, people can find the book anywhere books are sold. I do have a podcast as well, but everything is linked to from my initial website, which is timefreedom.life. So you can find everything there. Jo: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Brian. That was fantastic. Brian: Thank you so much. This was a true pleasure.The post Time Freedom: Rethink Your Work And Money With Brian Herriot first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you teach yourself anything, even when it challenges the way you see the world? And how can you organise what you learn so it turns into books your readers will find? J. Daniel Sawyer shares his self-education toolkit after decades as a largely self-taught author. In the intro, Spotify for Authors has expanded AI-assisted creation of audiobooks [Spotify]; Who is Narrating the Future? [Publishing Perspectives; 9 ways AI will disrupt authors and publishing from 2019]; Author Voice, Creativity, and Building a Career as an Intuitive Author-Entrepreneur [How Women Write]; A fallow season [Systems and Soul]; How to Write, Publish, and Market Short Stories – Joanna Penn. Today’s show is sponsored by Bookfunnel, the essential tool for your author business. Whether it’s delivering your reader magnet, sending out advanced copies of your book, handing out ebooks at a conference, or fulfilling your digital sales to readers, BookFunnel does it all. Check it out at bookfunnel.com/thecreativepenn This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  J. Daniel Sawyer is the author of over 30 books across science fiction, fantasy, crime, short stories, and nonfiction, as well as being a podcaster and filmmaker. His latest book is Reclaiming Your Mind: An Autodidact’s Bible. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What is an autodidact, and why school doesn’t teach you how to learn How to triage information in a world of way too much How to recognise fear in your body and turn it into excitement for learning Sandboxing dangerous ideas so you can learn without threatening your worldview How to organise research and check quotes when writing nonfiction Why you should never publish a book dead You can find Dan at JDSawyer.net, and The Autodidact’s Bible is out now on Kickstarter. Transcript of the interview with J. Daniel Sawyer Jo: J. Daniel Sawyer is the author of over 30 books across science fiction, fantasy, crime, short stories, and nonfiction, as well as being a podcaster and filmmaker. His latest book is Reclaiming Your Mind: An Autodidact’s Bible. So welcome back to the show, Dan. Dan: Hello, Joanna. It’s great to be back. Jo: Yes, indeed. You were only on the show a few months ago, which is rare I have somebody twice in the same year, so that is quite exciting. We talked about voice mastery last time, very different to the topic of today. But because we did talk a bit more about your background last time, we’re going to jump straight into the book. So what is an autodidact, and why write a book on it? Dan: Well, an autodidact is someone who teaches themselves things rather than taking a course. It’s not incompatible with being taught by others, of course, but there’s a set of skills for being able to pick up new information, new disciplines, new hobbies, whatnot, that’s really useful to have. I wrote the book because I was mentoring a friend’s kid through high school. They weren’t teaching her anything, and she was having a hell of a time figuring out how to get an education in a school that was just not interested in providing one. The process of the conversations over the course of a year forced me to surface all of the tools that I had developed, starting as a child, that allow me to pick up all of those disciplines you were talking about before, plus blacksmithing and academics and other stuff like that. While I have had access to a lot of amazing teachers in my life, I’m largely self-taught, and have become the world expert on a couple of topics as a result. I realised that the tools that you need to teach yourself and the tools that you get in school no longer overlap very much, at least in the US. The old style of classical education, and then the middling style of early school education, both gave you those tools so that when you left school, you were able to continue through the world growing. Nobody does that anymore, so I realised I needed to write a book about all this stuff while it was fresh in my mind, so I did. Jo: I love that. I don’t know if it always was like that for some people, too. We all know now more about neurodivergence. Back in the day, when you and I went to school, that wasn’t really talked about. It was like if you couldn’t learn stuff in the way that it was thrust at you, then you were just dumb, maybe. Dan: Well, what you and I got in school was the very late end of the German model. The German model of education is what arose in the industrial era, and its job is to create good, obedient workers, not necessarily to create independent citizens who can think for themselves and who can move through a world that’s changing and learn things. That kind of education came from an older tradition, but it wasn’t well suited to pulling people out of the hinterlands and putting them in the factories in a way that they could understand what they were supposed to be doing. So the Germans developed a regimented system that was built around memorisation exclusively, rather than processing. Memorisation and repetition. Whereas a more classical approach would have you do memorisation as part of repetition, processing, evaluation, and creativity. So when you go to school, you get some of the toolkit you need, but not all of it. Jo: Yes, and then I think some people were just so bashed over the head with stuff that they didn’t enjoy the process of learning, and maybe just moved away from it now. I want to come back on something you said there, that it didn’t enable the independence, the thinking for yourself. We’re living in this really weird time now where we’re almost in a splintered world where you can find information on anything you want, but a lot of people are finding information, say, on TikTok or in AI-generated books with no rigorous fact-checking. So how can you think for yourself in a world where there’s almost way too much now? Dan: Well, one of the most foundational skills of thinking is information triage. The world has always been full of unreliable information, if for no other reason than the state of the art in any given field at any given time is guaranteed to be about 80% wrong. So even if you’re being very careful about only hewing to the most accepted body of facts, facts change over time, partly as we learn more and partly as the world changes underneath us. Thinking is different than knowing. Thinking is the ability to evaluate the information you’re coming into contact with and figure out what’s likely to be useful, and then to check yourself based on what you are more inclined to believe because of the way that you’re made up emotionally. It’s being able to curb your impulses with an error-checking layer so that you don’t get sucked down into a very nasty rabbit hole, which everybody’s prone to on one front or another. So that explains the how and why, but the what is things like knowing your basic logic, knowing the informal logical fallacies that everybody’s prone to, things like the bandwagon fallacy. We’re partly herd animals. We tend to want to join a group for protection and identity. So if we’re in a group that believes a certain thing, we’re likely to believe it out of fashion, which is great for group solidarity. It’s not so great for actually knowing if what you think you know is correct. I’ve got a whole section of the book devoted to the top 30 or 40 most common informal reasoning fallacies. Knowing how to do basic critical reasoning is one of the things you have to do if you’re going to be learning in a way that’s useful to you. Then of course, there’s another reasoning kit, which is the non-rational reasoning kit, which I also talk about. That’s something that you and I as fiction authors use all the time. Jo: Explain more about that [non-rational reasoning kit] then, because people might not know what that is. Dan: All right. So rational reasoning involves logic. If X is true and Y is true, then Z must also be true. That’s basic deduction. It basically lets you figure out what’s implicit in the body of knowledge you already know. Then subsidiary to that is induction, which is, if X is true and Y is true, what might also be true that could explain X and Y? That’s the scientific method. It’s less reliable than deduction, but it actually grows your knowledge rather than just revealing it. Non-rational reasoning is things like reasoning through analogy, reasoning through metaphor, reasoning through intuition. These are all reasoning modes that allow you to bring something foreign into your understanding, or to deepen your understanding of something you’re already familiar with, in a way that incorporates not just logical propositions, but also emotional truth and relational truth and things like that. Frequently it can generate things you can then subject to logical evaluation and pull new information about the world out of. A really good example of where this happens in science is in visionary experiences. The periodic table, for example, came out of someone’s dream. Now, the fact he dreamed it doesn’t mean it’s true, but what happened while he was dreaming is he had a non-rational reasoning chain that brought him this vision, which he then brought out into the real world and started doing experiments on to see if it would work, and it did. Jo: In that case, yes, I can picture the periodic table, and I often see images of things that help me organise information. So that to me makes sense in terms of somebody who had certain amounts of knowledge, who had some kind of picture in their brain and then was able to prove that. I wanted to circle back. You were talking about critical things, rational things. You mentioned logic, and you did briefly mention emotion and intuition. Coming back to where we are at this point in history, so much emotion is being triggered through the media, whether that’s social media or traditional media or whatever, that all of those logical, reasoned things can be almost triaged immediately by a big emotional response to something. So how can we understand that that emotional response perhaps has to be part of the triage? Dan: Well, simply by stating it outright. What you just said is exactly correct. I’ve got a model in the book where I talk about the difference between feelings and emotions. Feelings, in this model, are your interpretive layer. That’s, I feel angry or sad or excited or depressed or whatnot. Those are your feelings. The emotions are the base physiological states that those feelings are laying over. So elevated heart rate, increased skin conductance, things like that are associated with any excitable state, like anger, sexual arousal, anticipation, fear, that kind of thing. Then depressed heart rate and whatnot, those are associated with depression, relaxation, and a whole bunch of other things. Learning to recognise the base physiological layer within yourself that’s being stimulated allows you a certain amount of freedom about interpreting that base physiological state. That can help you separate your reaction to your own physiological state from your rational evaluation of what’s going on around you. One of the things that our world runs on right now is fear, and there’s reasons for this. If you read Edward Bernays’ Propaganda, he lays it all out. Fear shifts your mind into a survival mode. You’re less likely to take time to think through things. You’re more likely to be easily steered because, as far as your physiology knows, there’s an active threat to you, and you’ve got to take care of that. You’ve got to get away from it. If you stimulate fear in somebody, you can direct who they hate, who they love, who they trust. Very, very useful for anyone who wants to build a cult or sell a product or get elected. If you learn to recognise in yourself that the physiological state associated with fear is the same one associated with excitement over something new, then you can train yourself, to a certain extent, and it’s a learned skill, to do an end run around the fear part and concentrate on the excitement. Then you can deal with whatever it is that’s stimulating you in the way that you would a new piece of information, a new bit of learning, a new adventure. Instead of fear, which closes you down, adventure opens you up, and that’s a much better state to engage in learning and exploration than fear is. Jo: When you said, “That opens you up,” this is exactly what I look for, what is expansive for me. I often reflect on this. When do I feel expansive, and when do I feel like I’m being reduced? When do I feel like I’m hunkered down? When I’m working with AI tools, I feel expansive, I feel more creative, I feel excited. I feel all these things where I just see so many possibilities, and the horizon is off out there in the distance. Yet I know other people, some people listening, will feel that that crushes them, that even mentioning it just makes them reduce into themselves and shrink because of fear, I guess. I also think that a lot of people are feeling those things because they haven’t learnt enough perhaps. They are just responding to emotions. So how can we change those things so we’re more open to learning? Dan: Well, one of the things you run into with creative types is we’ve all got something weird in our background that makes us do this. We’re not just inclined to be creative, because you can meet welders and electricians who are very creative people. They just apply their creativity in a limited domain. People who go into the arts tend to be either people who grew up in incredibly open conditions, or people who grew up in incredibly closed conditions and had to fight against them. People who grow up in closed conditions and fight against them tend to be a little better at sticking around for the long haul of an arts career, which can be punishing financially and emotionally. One of the reasons they can stick around is that they had a lot of practice in sticking around through horrible situations when they were younger. So they’re going to have a negative bias when they come up against things that they don’t understand. If you have a negative bias with something you don’t understand and it turns out to be wrong, you’re not going to lose very much. But if you have a negative bias when you come up against something you understand and it turns out to be right, you’re going to survive that thing. Whereas a more open person might just walk into the jaws of the shark, right? To change that and make your experience better, and give you access to all the advantages that the person who’s got a more open temperament has, you’ve got to find a way to make it safe to experiment with the dangerous thing. For every dangerous thing, and probably for everyone who’s encountering it, it’s going to be a little bit different. With AI, people are worried about the market eroding to the point where nobody cares about human creativity anymore. In fact, my first publishable short story, which is called We Create Worlds, was actually about a novelist trying to outwrite the AI novels. It’s become weird. Jo: What year did you write that in? Dan: That was in 1999. Jo: Awesome. Dan: It’s still a great short story. I did do it in podcast form, which you can find on my website at jdsawyer.net, and it’s also in ebook on Amazon, and it’s part of the Sculpting God short story collection. But the fear is that humanity gets crowded out of the market in the face of the relentless onslaught of the machines. It’s not a ridiculous fear, especially if you look at the history of artisanship. Everybody and their brother used to have an artisanal business, and now we’ve got machines that weave socks and make just about everything in our world. So people like me, who spend half my day every day in a blacksmith’s forge making hooks that you could just make by machines way cheaper, are kinda crazy. But there’s a market for that. Humans like things that were touched by other humans, as long as they can afford them or justify making a luxury. On the other hand, the people that adopt tools early and figure out how to make them work for them, those are usually the people that win at scale over the long haul. So, AI is coming for our jobs, guys, but you know what? You can keep it out of your creativity and build agents that help you deal with your scheduling and your bookkeeping and your marketing, all the other stuff that takes up your time as an author. Then instead of threatening your creativity, it gives you more space to be creative. Jo: So it’s reframing things a lot of the time. Dan: A lot of the time, yes. Jo: I think that’s true of everything. Reframing can help you learn. Reframing things can give you a reason to learn, I guess, when in the past, maybe at school, you hated learning… Dan: Yes. Jo: Now by reframing it into a reason why. Dan: That really helps, and it also helps the second big problem with learning, which is worldview threat. I think I open the book with an entire section on how worldviews work and how that limits us, and how we can’t get away from them even though they limit us. Your worldview is the matrix through which you experience everything around you, and it’s not a window, it’s like a lens. It distorts everything, it filters everything, because it’s the reflexive layer that helps you make sense of the world, and it’s built out of your experience and inflected by your personality and other things like that. There are things you can learn, and for everyone it’s going to be a little bit different, that threaten everything about your worldview. That’s a problem, because your mind experiences your worldview not as an interpretive matrix, but as a survival tool. As far as your deep mind goes, your worldview is perfectly okay because you’re still alive. Its job is to keep you alive. So if you learn something, or come close to learning something or thinking something that could unspool a big part of your worldview, you’ll just emotionally go blank. You’ll shut down. The information you’re encountering will not register, or it will make you angry and you’ll steer away from it. This isn’t very good if you’re wanting to learn things or grow. So there’s a set of metacognitive tools you can use to help you push past that and navigate the existential crises that can sometimes ensue without crushing you entirely. I spend a section of the book talking about that as well, and detailing what some of those tools are. Jo: Better give us a tool. Give us one useful tool. Dan: All right, so one of the basic tools is one that anyone who’s a developer in the audience will be familiar with, and it’s basically sandboxing. You create a little playpen where it’s okay to play with this dangerous idea, and you make yourself the promise that until you’re really familiar with the dangerous idea, you’re not going to connect it to anything else in your worldview. Then you’ve got the option later on to decide whether to integrate it or not. But you’ve got to play with this scary tool. For someone who comes out of a fundamentalist religious background like I do, one of the big ones here was textual criticism, where you learn about all the manuscript traditions that make up the New Testament especially, and the development of Christian scripture. I had to know about this stuff because I had a paid writing gig that required me to know about it. But I was a biblical literalist and believed that it all came straight out of God’s mouth, and I couldn’t even go near it without going, “Ah,” because intuitively some part of me recognised this could be a threat to what you believe. So I made myself a sandbox. I said, “This is a literary project. If I actually believe in the doctrines of my religion, then this can’t be a threat, because even if the words themselves were changed all over the place, the Holy Spirit would have ensured that the important parts of the theology got through unscathed.” So I had a sandbox. I didn’t really have to think about it. I could just learn the topic, and I got through. It was a two-year project, I had a fabulous time, and I came out knowing more about textual criticism than anyone ever should need to. I actually got to know someone, a friend of my father’s, who actually makes the Greek New Testament from the surviving original sources. I learned all sorts of things about biblical translation and about classical literature. It was great stuff. I sandboxed it until I understood it, and then I decided whether or not to integrate it, and I did integrate it. It didn’t actually have anything to do with me ending up being an atheist now. That was because of my research into mythopoetics several years later. When you sandbox something like that, you give yourself an imaginary play space. This is something you do any time that you go to a movie and you cheer for characters who are doing horrible things that you would never do or condone in real life. It’s a fantasy play space that allows you to explore other aspects of life that you can’t touch in real life. When you’re learning, you can use that same set of skills of fantasy play and fantasy role play for trying out and exploring topics that might threaten the way you see the world. Jo: Well, that actually brings up a good reason to do this, and one of the reasons I love to learn new things is to turn them into books. You mentioned earlier your short story about AI, for example. That’s a great way of sandboxing and playing with a dangerous idea. I’m actually writing a lot of, I guess we would call them science fiction, in the science fiction genre. I’ve never written science fiction before, and suddenly… Dan: Welcome to the party. Jo: Yes, exactly. I’m now writing science fiction. I haven’t published any of it yet, but it’s possible that I’m moving into science fiction because I am weighing up a whole load of these things as I’m learning about it, and I’m like, “Okay, how would I play with that idea?” So that is one way to use what we learn, or even, like we said, reframing it. One good reason to drive the learning in the first place, I guess. But in that way, I wanted to ask you, because your books are very detailed. How are you structuring knowledge as you learn it, in a way that is useful for turning it into something else later? Dan: Okay. Associatively. The way that the brain stores knowledge, it looks a bit like a spiderweb, or like a map of galaxies in the universe. That’s probably too geeky. Let’s stick with a spiderweb. Everyone’s seen a spiderweb. You don’t record discrete tabulated facts like a spreadsheet or a database. You actually record associative memories, and everything you know is associated not just with other things that fact might be associated with in a library catalogue. It’s associated with the smell that you were smelling when you learned that thing, and the emotional state you were in when you learned that thing. The more associative connections you can make to any bit of knowledge, the easier it is to record. When I sat down and wrote The Autodidact’s Bible, I literally wrote it front to back without an outline. There have been some books I’ve done this with where I had to rearrange afterwards. With this one, I didn’t have to, because this is one of the places I live, so I’ve just got a good structure for the information in my head. I knew that if I wanted to convey this toolkit and all the things associated with it, I needed to start with what is knowledge and memory, and how does understanding work? Then move into worldview and the way that emotions affect the way that we learn, and developmental psychology, which has to do with the way the human being is designed to learn from the get-go. We start off with raw input. I call this in the book type zero learning. We get a fire hose of information we don’t know how to make sense of, and our brain adapts itself to the inputs. Then there’s type one learning, where we play around with things and we experiment and we see what they do. It’s the “what’s this button do?” approach to learning. Then there’s type two learning, which is someone else who knows something already tells us things or shows us things, and we pick that up. All three of these systems are involved at every stage of the learning process. Actually, it’s hierarchical. So you can do type zero learning without doing type one or type two. If you’re doing type two, which is what you’re doing in school, or when you’re learning from a mentor, or when you’re listening to a podcast, then if the information is going to stick, you are also involved in type zero learning, which is just taking in a bunch of stuff, and type one learning, which is practising and doing trial and error. Even if, as you’re listening to this podcast, you’re just reacting with things like, “Oh, now that’s an interesting idea,” and you’re having a little fantasy about, “What if I did this?”, that’s a version of experiment and repeat, and that solidifies the learning in your knowledge web in your head. Then the trick is figuring out how to go back and find those things. Jo: Well, this is what I wanted to talk about. In the book, you do have stuff on memory and that kind of thing. I have definitely found, and this has got worse with menopause, and this is a completely normal thing with menopause for women, the brain fog that means things don’t seem to stick so well, and then the recall is also almost harder. I’m often reaching for things, and I can’t get them back. I’ve always been somebody who writes everything down anyway, but I now do it even more. As you know, I sent written questions for this. I now rely on written stuff so much more. So when I’m writing a book, or like I’ve just been doing with this master’s and a lot of research, I have to write everything down. So I guess my question was more about, for people listening who want to learn things in order to write books from that— What recommendations do you have for organising your research so that when you write the book, you can reference it in a good way? Dan: Well, writing things down is great, because that is part of the repetition that helps it stick in your head, and then you’ve got an external place where, as long as you can remember where you put it, you know where to get it. The more connections you can make to any piece of information, the easier it is to find. I do take notes, and I have a strictly hierarchical file tree where I know where to find manuscripts and files full of notes and whatnot. What often happens with me is I will make notes on something, and then I’ll forget I did it, and then a few years later I’ll write the book and then discover the notes again afterwards, and the book basically matches the notes. I think the reason that happens is that when I get an idea in my head and write it down, I just start subconsciously playing with the idea, and I play with it and play with it until it’s well developed. Every time you take an idea out, or a memory, and play with it, everything that you’re thinking or feeling at that point in time gets reconnected to it. So you actually alter a bit of what you’re remembering, but you’re also multiplying the mental paths you can use to get to it. So you’ve got a very strict external system to help you beat the brain fog. The analogy to do it without the external system is you create that kind of system in your head. You practise actually walking the system like it’s a library or a museum. If you’re a very visual person, and this doesn’t work if you have aphantasia, you can close your eyes and you can walk through the museum in your head, and you can turn to the left and see a room that’s associated with everything you know about biology, and then you can start picking things up in that room. I’m actually being semi-literal here. I sometimes actually do this like I’m working in virtual reality. Most of the time it’s not that concrete, but if I’m trying to find something and I get stuck, I will actually close my eyes and go into the museum and find the room. The other trick is you don’t chase a particular bit of information too hard. All you’re looking for is something that’s in the neighbourhood. Because once you start working mentally in the neighbourhood, all of that knowledge map comes back to you as a side effect of being in that area. Let’s say you’re in England, and you knew neighbourhoods in Nottingham really well, and you wanted to go visit a friend in Nottingham. When you get on the road to go, and you’re not using a map, you don’t have the whole map loaded into your head. All you know is, I’m going to go that way on this road, and then you see the exit off the M1, or whatever it is, that you recognise. “Oh, this is the exit I take,” so you take that exit. All the other information in between, you kinda know it, but you drop it. You don’t really actively search for it. Then when you get into the general area of your friend’s house, you start to recognise landmarks and you go there. Memory of non-physical spaces works the same way, and you can actually develop the ability to engage it as if it’s a physical space. The technique is called the mind palace. It was discovered in Ancient Greece, and it still works. Jo: Yes, and I agree with that, and I still have that kind of experience in a way. When we’re writing nonfiction, and you have selected footnotes in this book, for example, although not to the extent of academic text, which is what I’ve been doing with my master’s dissertation this week. As an example, I knew that Stephen King had said something like, “Writing is a form of telepathy,” but could I remember where it was? No. hTen I was like, okay, well, it’s very likely it’s in either one of his introductions or it’s in On Writing, his memoir of the craft, because that is an iconic book. But in order to actually get the right quote, because if you’re quoting people, obviously it has to be an exact quote as opposed to a made-up thought. Then if you’re doing a proper footnote, for example, it does need what book it is and what edition and what page number and all of that kind of thing. So when you’re writing the nonfiction books, are you doing the memory palace thing, writing the stuff, and then going back and finding where you got it from? Dan: Yes, and anything that’s vague, I just put hard brackets around it. I don’t remember all the people I quoted, but let’s say I quoted Schopenhauer. If I was going to be quoting Schopenhauer and I could remember what he said, but I couldn’t remember the words, I’d just put brackets around it and say, “Find the place where Schopenhauer said this,” and then put the quote here. I don’t use hard brackets anywhere else in my writing, so I can then just Control + F, find the hard bracket, and retroactively do the research. Jo: Yes, exactly. I think that is the point I was trying to get to, which is it’s all very well having the memory palace, but I can bet you that some of these quotes are not correct. Dan: Yes, always check quotes. Now with AI, there’s search engine techniques where you can actually start from a paraphrase and then refine the search stepwise until you can get the exact quote with a reference, and then you can check it against the manuscript online. I use a lot of those when I don’t have the book that I’m thinking of in my hands. Now of course with AI, I’m like, “Where did this author say this thing…” Jo: Roughly? Dan: Yes, roughly. The AI will come back with, “Well, he said this in these words in that book, and these words in that book.” And I’m like, “Oh, boy, I get to pick which one works better for what I’m writing.” Jo: It’s very good. Coming back to what you were writing, I think you have balanced footnotes and source material, but you haven’t gone as far as the academic footnoting of every single sentence, which is where I am at the moment. So for general nonfiction that is trying to reach a broader audience, where would you say the balance lies? Because I just feel now that we don’t do enough of this in the indie community. I read a lot of nonfiction books which need a heck of a lot more attributions. Dan: First of all, I subscribe to the Terry Pratchett school of footnotes, which is that footnotes are places for long asides that need to be there, but that interrupt the flow of the text. I’m sure you noticed. Also, for me, it’s really important, wherever I can remember where I got an idea, to point it out so that the reader can follow that rabbit trail if they want to. As a nonfiction writer, I feel like I’m in the business of providing value to the curious person. So anywhere I can point them where they might have fun exploring further is a value add. That’s something I try to do, but I don’t always remember, because in the heat of composition, you don’t really realise where the ideas are coming from all the time. The second thing is, if I’m directly quoting or paraphrasing someone, there’s always at least an attribution to the author, if not in the footnotes, then in the body text. You know, as Harlan Ellison used to say about being paid as a writer, or whatever. The great glory, and this is at least partly an aesthetic thing in my head, the great glory of nonfiction is that it taps you into an entire universe of conversations that have been going on as long as there’s been a written word. To pretend that you’re not participating in that conversation, okay, it might make you look cool to the novice reader, but you’re really depriving your reader of even just the bare awareness that he’s dipping his toe in a rich stream that he could follow forever. Especially in our world where we live in a TikTok world, but before that, we lived in a soundbite world, and before that, we lived in the newspaper world. These are all formats that try to pretend that they exist outside of time and culture, even though they’re the most temporally dependent and culturally fickle sorts of entertainment there are. We’ve gotten used to the experience of encountering something that feels like it could just be from anywhere, and that’s not the way it really works. Every TikTok video comes out of someone’s experience, which is embedded in a culture, which is embedded in a tradition that’s full of controversies that goes back to the beginning. It’s not just full of controversies, but it’s accompanied by stories, fictional stories, mythic stories, where those controversies get fought out and explored. I think as a nonfiction author, if you want to be really selfish about it, it makes you look better if you’re also pointing at the tradition that you’re standing in than if you’re pretending that it’s all coming from you. Jo: Yes. It makes you look better if you are citing things. I feel like that’s such a good reframe. I was reading a book the other day, and I was like, all these ideas are coming from all these other people that I know about. This person would look a lot better if they actually accredited those ideas to the people they came from. My opinion of that person went down because they were not attributing. So, yes, I think it’s so important, and that’s the fun bit. Let’s circle back to the fun bit of learning. Dan: Before you get onto that, I should point out that in my writing, I don’t do this with academic rigour. I do it as it occurs to me. I write a weekly nonfiction article dealing with philosophy and history and arts and everything, and I don’t always think, “Oh, the readers might not know where this comes from,” and stick it in there. But over the course of reading those articles, you get all the citations. They’re just not always in every article. Jo: Oh, no, I’ve read your stuff, Dan. You do a good job. Obviously not to the academic attribution detail, but I do think this book in particular, Reclaiming Your Mind: An Autodidact’s Bible, has a lot of references so people can learn more. So I do briefly, before we finish, because you and I could talk about this forever, but I do want to ask about Kickstarter. So you’re using Kickstarter to launch this book. You’ve done a couple of campaigns, but not for a while. So why use Kickstarter for this, and what are the pros and cons? Dan: Well, as far as I’ve been able to work out, doing a Kickstarter is the one way you can make sure that you don’t publish a book dead. Are you familiar with this term from old publishing? Jo: You can expand on it. Dan: Okay. So in traditional publishing, there’s a term called publishing dead, which is where the publishing house buys a book, they go to the trouble of laying it out and printing it, and then they just kinda drop it on the market with an entry in the bookseller’s catalogue. There’s no publicity, no fanfare, no attempt to get advance buzz going, and it just kinda sits there. Occasionally someone who buys for a bookstore will get a couple of copies, and they’ll sit on the shelves, and a customer will walk by and buy one. Books that are published dead tend to sell 500 copies over a 30-year lifetime. It’s not much. Jo: That’s probably a lot of indie books as well. Dan: That’s how most indie books are done. The first 10 years of my career, I was doing fiction podcasting, so everything I was publishing got published live, and they did really well. Then fiction podcasting kinda died at the same time that my life got really complicated, and so I decided just to let my podcast die with the wave. At just the same time, my personal fiction productivity went through the roof. I went from writing one, maybe two books a year to writing four or five. I was dropping these four or five books on the world and nothing happened, and all the sales were drying up anyway from the older stuff that had been supported by the podcast. So I decided I wanted to find a way to stop publishing things dead. I had done a Kickstarter for an audiobook years ago that I produced for Gail Carriger, and so when I was writing Secrets of the Heinlein Juvenile, I decided there’s a lot of Heinlein fans out there, so even if I don’t personally have the name recognition, this is something that I could launch pretty well on Kickstarter. It did great, and I decided at that point that I was never going to publish another book dead. I was always going to have some kind of occasion to launch with, even if I had to manufacture it. In the years since, I’ve published very little, because I’ve been trying to figure out how to do that. I’ve got a big stack of books that are coming out now that I’ve figured it out. I realised that things like debuting in a book bundle, doing a Kickstarter, or finding a way to time a release with a news cycle, which is appropriate for some science fiction particularly, these are ways to publish a book without publishing it dead and then having to try to figure out why nobody’s noticing it. So that’s why I’m doing the Kickstarter. Jo: I also agree. What I like is doing the two-week campaign. I normally do two-week campaigns, because then I can just focus my energy before the campaign and then during those two weeks, and then I’m basically done, and then I put it up on all the platforms and everything. I focus most of my energy into that couple of weeks beforehand and then the two weeks of the campaign. Like you, I mean— We don’t want to be spending all our time marketing, but to try and make it an occasion just helps us put a bit more effort into it, doesn’t it? Dan: It really does. And the other thing it does, and this took me a while to figure out, but I’ve come to understand that most people’s relationship with their favourite writers isn’t like my relationship with my favourite writers. I’ve got about 70 writers I like, but I’ve got about 10 where I don’t care what happens, I will buy and immediately read what they’ve done. I realised that for most people, their relationship with most of the writers they like is more at arm’s distance. They stumble across, “Oh, I didn’t know this guy had something new. I’ll pick it up,” rather than being like, “I love the way this person’s mind works, and I want to see what it goes at next.” So the bread and butter as an author has got to be in making sure that those people find you. It’s not in serving the core base, the core 1,000 fans. They’re really important, and you want to do that, but if you want the career to sustain and build, you’ve got to find ways to help people in that second group, the arm’s-length fans, stumble over what you’re doing. Because everybody’s got more important things in life than your books. But if you’ve got excuses to be stumbled upon that don’t involve standing right up and waving a sign saying, “Buy my book, buy my book,” then you’re more likely to build momentum, because people talk about the book they just read and that they love. If they don’t talk to someone in the first few days after they read that book, then unless it was one of the books that changes their life, they’re never going to talk about it again. So you want to get as many people talking about the cool book they read last week at the same time as possible, to build momentum. Jo: Indeed. Right. So where can people find your cool book, as well as all your other books, online? Dan: Reclaiming Your Mind: An Autodidact’s Bible is currently Kickstarting. You can find a link on the top post at my website at JDSawyer.net. You can find all my books at JDSawyer.net/book-list, and you can find my weekly articles on maker stuff, philosophy, creativity, and history at jdanielsawyer.substack.com. Jo: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Dan. That was great. Dan: It was a pleasure, as always. The post Reclaiming Your Mind: How To Teach Yourself Anything With J. Daniel Sawyer first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you use AI to research, edit and handle admin and marketing tasks while still writing every single word yourself? How can you double down on being human and reach readers on a personal level? Anna McPhee shares her perspective as a software engineer, author and creative technologist. In the intro, How to Write, Publish, and Market Short Stories out now. This show is supported by my Patrons. Join my Community and get articles, discounts, and extra audio and video tutorials on writing craft, author business, and AI tools, at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Anna McPhee is an author, software engineer, professional speaker, and creative technologist. Her latest book is What Machines Can’t Replace: Why AI Makes Us More Human. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Why writing code is creative work, and what it shares with writing books How AI changed Anna’s job as a software engineer without taking her employment The difference between AI assistance and generation How to use custom skills for editing reports, research and repeatable tasks Why the rise of AI makes us crave slow, imperfect, physical things Responding to a negative review by showing up as a human You can find Anna at Anna.kiwi and her new book at WhatMachinesCantReplace.com. Transcript of the interview with Anna McPhee Jo: Anna McPhee is an author, software engineer, professional speaker, and creative technologist. Her latest book is What Machines Can’t Replace: Why AI Makes Us More Human. So welcome to the show, Anna. Anna: Hi, Joanna. Thank you so much for having me. Jo: Oh, this is going to be a fun conversation. First up— Tell us a bit more about you and your background in technology, as well as how you got into writing. Anna: I have been in all of these things my whole life, as long as I can remember. When I was just a little girl, writing was my favourite thing, writing stories. It was the whole reason I went to school, to be honest. I always pictured myself as a writer before anything else. My dad was a lecturer in software development, so when I was little, he would teach me how to code. So I’ve always done both, for as long as I can remember, and my mum is an artist. That’s been my upbringing, at the intersection of technology and art, and then writing is my own personal passion. It’s naturally flowed throughout my life. I’ve been in and out of some other careers and chased all the things that have made me feel interested and passionate, but writing has always been there in the background. It’s something I do, whether it’s been for a hobby or for a profession, so it’s always been there. Jo: But you work in software, right? Anna: I do. I work in software, which came to me by chance. I set out as a digital nomad about 15 years ago now. I sold everything I owned and started travelling. The way I thought I was going to fund this was through freelance writing, which I was very optimistic about. We all know now that’s a very challenging way to make an income, especially when you don’t have a background in it or a portfolio. I did have this childhood background in software engineering and coding. So I set out to be a writer and travel the world as a writer, and actually what I ended up doing was building websites and writing software, because that’s what people would pay me to do. So I fell into both at the same time through this chance I took. Jo: I think sometimes people think that programming and software development and these more technical fields are not creative. My husband was a programmer for a long time, and essentially programming is a language. Well, there are lots of languages, but you are creating in a language with computers, right? So is there that much difference? How do you fix these two things in your mind separately, or are they the same thing? Anna: They’re so related. Many people might put writing into more of an art, and computer development and programming more into a maths or a science, but I just think there’s so much creativity in writing code, in how you choose to structure things, in the language you select for something, the way you approach it. It’s very similar to writing a book, I think. I’ve found a lot of things that are very similar about it, to do with architecture even. When you look at the basics, some people might write a book with no idea where it’s going and see where it ends. It’s the same with software. People might go into it and not have a plan. Most people will architect their software, or they’ll architect their story in the same way. I think there’s a lot of crossover between the two. Jo: And there’s editing, and doing the “does this do what I want it to do?” I think with software perhaps it’s more obvious when something doesn’t do what you want it to do than with a book. Anna: Perhaps. Although with AI now, it’s becoming a little more vague, because you can think your software’s doing what you want it to, but it might not be. It might just look like it is. I think those lines are getting a bit blurrier as technology changes. There’s a lot of things in software development that are very similar to writing. We don’t have an editor, but we will have unit tests or code reviews, and maybe the CI tests, and we’ve got all these structures in place that are very similar to writing. Jo: I also think what’s interesting, and this has been in the last maybe decade really, is that it used to be you would get a job in the old way, but— Now it seems like your GitHub page, which is almost like your author platform, your programmer platform, can make a real difference in how people find you and your work. So maybe talk a bit about that, because you have a GitHub page, don’t you? Anna: I do have a GitHub page, and I’ve spent a lot of time on it, because you can set up your README file and make it a bit like a website, and introduce all of your projects and what you’re working on. Just to combine it a little bit, actually, I use GitHub for my writing. I use it for version control so that I can go back and see the changes that I’ve made to the things that I’m writing. Even with my book, I had a copy of it backed up in a private repository on GitHub where I could track changes and never lose a backup. I have so much faith in GitHub that it extends beyond the software I write and into everything I do. I keep a copy backed up in GitHub. Jo: That’s actually quite funny because, coming into AI in the author community, one of the things that’s now talked about is how do you prove that your book is not a one-click generated book? And what you’ve actually got there is evidence of your process. Anna: Exactly. Jo: Which is kind of hilarious in many ways. Well, let’s get into this, because there’s so much fear and witch hunting right now and negativity in the author community. As somebody who’s grown up with both art and the software side, where do you think those attitudes come from, and how have they changed in different ways? Anna: Oh, people are really afraid. I’ve got a very moderate perspective, and I think I sit in a very similar position to you. A large number of people that I hear from are either incredibly pro-AI, let it do everything for them, everything, everything, do it for absolutely everything you can think of. Or they’re completely terrified and very, very negative about it, and won’t use it for anything at all. I can only assume this is going to stabilise with time. There’s been a huge amount of outrage against other technologies in the past, even calculators. All technology has come with scepticism and people scared that it’s going to take their jobs. I think there’s a lot of misinformation out there as well, people who think that AI is trained on books, which it is, and that’s a totally valid concern with the copyright and things. I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding around what training an AI model actually means in that regard. It’s not taking someone’s prose and reusing it. It’s looking at the underlying mathematical probability of, if you have this word, what is the probability of the next word being this? It’s broken down into numbers. I’m not 100 percent sure, but from my perspective of seeing it, the witch hunt comes from a place of fear. I saw an author in a group I’m in recently who said, “Oh, I’ve written so many novels, and I’ve run out of ideas for names for my characters. I’ve used every person I’ve ever met, I’ve used their name. That’s how many books I’ve written. How do I get more names?” Someone suggested, “Well, why don’t you ask AI for some other names?” “Oh, no, no, no. I could never let AI take over my work like that.” And it was just over the idea of using it to ask a question. So I think there’s a feeling that if you let it do one thing, next thing it’s going to be doing everything, and it’s going to erase you, and your ideas, and your way of doing things. Jo: Just on that, it is interesting, though, isn’t it? Because I am trying to use it, like I use Claude Code, and I’m trying to use it for more, and more, and more. I started off using ChatGPT the day it came out in 2022, and have increasingly tried to give the AI tools all the things that will free me up to do the things I love to do. Making lists of names is not on my list of things I love to do. Anna: Yes, exactly. I feel the same way. Jo: So that’s the thing, isn’t it? The fear is really interesting because we all have fear. One very visceral time I remember feeling very scared was in the pandemic, in those early days when there wasn’t a vaccine. That’s really the only reference I think I have for it, because like you, I feel like I’ve grown up with technology, and so I’ve never felt it that way. I’m hoping that as with COVID, as with things developing over time, and obviously again, misinformation is rampant, but— I guess we got used to it. Is that the best we can hope for with AI? Anna: I hope it’s better than that. I hope we can hope for better, that people can learn how to use it in a way that supports them. As people become less fearful, like with COVID, they experiment a little bit here or there and start to see that there are ways to not let it take over. In general, people are really bad at identifying AI-generated content. There are so many studies done on it, and it’s 50/50 at best. Good AI now produces stuff that a lot of people don’t recognise. So it’s more about the idea than the reality of it. There’s this whole idea around it that AI will take our jobs, and I get asked all the time, “Well, when do you think AI’s going to take your job? You work on a computer.” Well, it can take my job, and it has. I used to write code all the time, and now I write almost no code. I work for a very large software company, and we use a lot of AI in our development protocols, and I don’t write any code now, more or less, and a few years ago I did all day. So my job has changed completely, and AI has taken my job, but it hasn’t taken my employment. I found a new way of being, which is I’m more of a project manager. I review code. I make sure nothing bad gets put out into the world. My role has changed, but it hasn’t been taken away. I hope that as people start to see that this new technology is not taking their jobs, it’s taking the parts of their jobs off them that are so repeatable, and giving them more room to do more with the things that they are uniquely good at. Jo: Absolutely. So let’s get into that, because you did just say there that you’re not writing any code, which is different to your writing for books. In your book, What Machines Can’t Replace, you talk about how you used AI assistance and how you did things in different ways. I’ve been explicit about being AI-assisted since May 2023, so I absolutely am on board with the difference between what is assistance and what is generation. One-click generation of a complete book, while some people might choose to do that, that’s not what you and I are talking about. So tell us— How did you use AI tools and these assisted processes for this book? Anna: Right. So I used AI extensively for this book. However, I wrote every single word. I don’t want AI to take over my voice, and that is one area where it differs from writing code in a big way. One-click generation, maybe one day AI will actually be very good at it, and we won’t be able to tell the difference. But currently, I definitely can. If I start reading something that is one-click generated, it becomes very obvious to me very quickly. I use AI extensively in my day. I use a Claude plan which is the Max 20x, the biggest allowance plan, and I run out of limit every week. So I spend a lot of time seeing how it forms sentences and the kind of thing it says, so I think I’m quite sensitive to when I see it. So for now, it’s not good for that, and I don’t think I ever want it to be. When I put something out in the world that is software, the thing that’s uniquely me is the concepts behind it or the way it functions. It’s not the code itself. When I put writing out there, when I put a book out there, the words are the thing that’s me. They’re my signature, they’re my style. So I used AI assistance for everything else. I used it to help me research, but then I would verify the sources myself, but it was so good at finding things. I used it to transcribe my words. I would go out for long walks, and my ideas come to me when I’m out walking, like so many people. So I’d just pick up my phone and voice record, “Oh, hey, I was thinking, years ago I heard about this study, and I think that would be really interesting, but I don’t really know the details of it. Can you make a note of this?” Then my AI could go and research it, come back and say, “Oh, I think you’re talking about this research paper, and here’s a link to it.” It could add it into my notes, and I could still verify it and read it, but it saved me hours of manual trawling through Google Scholar looking for things. So as a first step I used it for research, but I also used it all the way through the writing process. I’ve set up a lot of custom skills for all the different editor types. I’ve got a developmental editor, a line editor, a copy editor. None of them are allowed to make any changes. They are only allowed to create reports of what they find. So I could check for consistency, or did I reference the right thing for this chapter? Does this flow okay? I could ask it questions about my work without it actually touching the words. Another way I used it is I’d make more voice recordings, and then it would transcribe them and suggest where in my book they would fit best, and then copy and paste my exact words, word for word, into the right spot, and then I could edit it in. So I used it for almost everything except the actual words, which remain mine, and the design as well. I value designers a lot, so I paid a cover designer to design my cover. Jo: Yes, and all those things you were talking about, I also do. How do you explain skills? Because I have like 100 skills now. I do skills for everything. I’m struggling to explain what that is to people who don’t really understand. Anna: Yes, skills are amazing, and it is difficult to explain. It’s like a little package, and it can contain prompts, it can contain scripts, it can contain information, and it can be called only when needed. So if I created, for example, my developmental editor skill, it might be a folder that’s consumed by Claude and Claude Code, and only when it’s asked for, then it uses all of the stuff in its context and follows a set of instructions. They’re just more powerful than a prompt because they’re reusable, and they live there, and it can be clever and know when to use ones without you invoking them directly as well. I have another skill that’s just me, about me, and I keep it up to date with information about what I’m working on and who I am. If I’m doing something, I can say, “Well, don’t forget, check the About Me before you answer this.” Or, “I’m working on this project I haven’t worked on in a while, but I created a skill to reference it. Before we start work on this, can you go and check in with the skill?” Kind of like a library. Jo: It’s interesting, you’re talking about quite expansive skills, and I do have some of those, but a lot of my skills are really quite specific. Like, do a Shopify product in the way that we did Shopify products last time. Or, this is how Joanna Penn wants the sales description for Amazon, so write the Amazon sales description for this. And then, say, on ChatGPT it’ll be like, right, do A+ content for this book. That kind of thing. So it can be really, really specific, almost like a little program, right? Then it can be, as you say, with memory and all this different stuff. Anything you want to do more than once, I think. Anna: That’s a really good way to describe it. Also, because of my technical background, I trust code a lot more than I trust AI at the moment. I really love AI, but the results vary, and you can run the same thing five times and get five different results, whereas if you run a code function five times, you will always get the same result if it’s a well-written function. So for anything like that, I add code into my skills so that I can say, “When this is called, run this script,” and I know it’s always run the same way. You can get quite complex with skills and build some real programs inside them, or it can be just a few lines. Do this, this way. I’ve got one I really enjoy at the moment I created called Research Me. I have so many ideas, always hundreds of ideas. So many of them are terrible. Some of them are good, and some of them are already done. I just type Research Me, and then I just put my thought. It might be a word. It might be a line. It might be more than that. Then it goes away and looks it up and sees if someone’s done this thing, and if it’s valid to me, and then creates a report and saves it in my knowledge base for me to look at another time. Jo: I guess it’s not really a skill, but it’s more like part of the memory. I just say, put that in the backlog and bring it back in a month. Anna: Oh, that’s so nice, too, being able to set schedules and reminders. Like, right now is not a good time, but I don’t want to let this idea go, so can you bring it back to me at this time? And it will. It’s wonderful for that. Jo: It is good. Oh, and we should also say, you don’t have to write a skill. If you do something with Claude or ChatGPT or whatever, you can then say, “Create a skill for this,” and it will write it, and you can have a look at it, but you don’t have to sit there typing out how to do stuff. I think often people think that you have to drive it a lot more, where it’s just so much of a conversation now, isn’t it? Anna: Yes, it can be done completely with conversation. You don’t need to write out any instructions or any code, anything at all. You could have a really positive experience doing something with Claude Cowork and then get to the end of that process and think, “Oh, that was wonderful. I definitely think I’ll do that again.” So you just say, “Oh, that was great. Can you make that a skill so we can do it again the same way next time?” And it’ll create it, and you just click a button, say Add the Skill once it’s done, and that’s it. Jo: There are so many things. Now, just coming back to your book, you do have at the end of each chapter some prompts, although I don’t like the word prompt anymore, because I feel like prompt is from the old way, when you would type in a certain prompt and then something would come back and that would be done. Whereas now it’s much more of a conversation. So a prompt is almost a starting point. So you’ve used questions, I guess. What are your recommendations for authors who want to get more into this but are still apprehensive and are worried about getting it wrong somehow? Anna: Okay. Yes, I agree with you on prompting. That was a real buzzword for a while there. Everyone was going to be a prompt engineer, and the future of AI was prompting, prompt design. The systems are so much more capable now that it’s not what it was. It is definitely more of a conversation. I think that is the good place to start, to just have a conversation with the AI about your work. It doesn’t have to touch your work. You could just ask for its opinion on something. If you don’t want it to consume your whole book, there are privacy settings, and you can stop it from training on your material if that’s the concern, or you could use a local model. You could give it some of your writing and ask its opinion and start a conversation. One thing about AI is that people forget you can just say to it, “What’s the best way to use you? Hi, I’m new here. I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m a writer. How can you help me?” And it will tell you. Jo: I think one of the other ways, if people don’t even want to use it for creative stuff… This morning, as we record this, I’ve been delving into the back end of my YouTube channel, which I’ve just ignored for years, actually, and Google Search Console, and there are all these errors everywhere. I’m like, “I don’t understand that message.” Or I had an error on one of my files on Draft2Digital, and I was like, “Okay, ugh.” So now I just put those errors into Claude and say, “Right, how do I fix this?” Or, “Maybe you could fix this.” That helps so much, because as author publishers or self-published authors, we do have a lot of technical things to do. Sometimes, well, all the time now, I think, getting help with it rather than ignoring it can be great. Anna: Absolutely. It’s so good for that administrative stuff as well, especially with the addition of being able to use Claude, and a lot of the other ones as well, in your web browser now. So it can do things for you. It can fill out forms. There’s a lot of repetition in publishing a book. You have to enter your ISBN in five million places, and you want to make sure that your information is aligned and that you have the same data in numerous different places, and you can ask it to check. You can ask it to check your metadata on your website and say, “Does the author information for me align with what you’re seeing on Goodreads, or what you’re seeing on StoryGraph, or in Wikidata? Do you see any gaps that I need to address?” It’s really good at that stuff. Or you can open a form and say, “Can you fill it out for me? I’m sick of typing.” And it will. It’s so good for the admin. Just amazing. Jo: So good for admin, exactly. This is the thing, this whole “AI’s going to take my job.” Yes, please take 95% of my job and leave me with the bit I want to do. Let’s get back into the book, because— You also say in the book, “The more I worked with AI, the more I wanted the slow, imperfect physical things.” So tell us about that. Anna: Yes. So AI swept me up. I’ve been, also like you, an early adopter, and absolutely obsessed with it right from day one. I just started to notice I needed more and more breaks, and I was valuing different things than I used to, and I was consuming and purchasing different things than I used to. I started to see this changing, and I would spend more and more time out in the garden. I love my garden anyway, I’m a gardener. I was just starting to recognise this feeling, and at first I couldn’t really put a name to it. What is this? Why am I searching out these things? Why do I want to create more than I did even before with my hands? So I started looking into it, and it was very much a global phenomenon. Everyone seems to be doing this. There’s been a really strong link between the introduction of AI into the world and things like record sales or sourdough baking, although that one also came during COVID, so that one’s a bit tricky to measure. But lots of other things are just getting more and more popular as the market gets saturated with AI-generated content. People want to see things that a human has touched. The harder it becomes to actually see that in AI-generated content, the more people want other signs. If you can’t just read a piece of writing and know 100 percent sure a human wrote it or an AI wrote it, you start looking for other ways to tell. So I really felt that in myself, and it was a very unsettling feeling, as someone who’s been very, very technology-forward all my life, to start valuing more and more things that weren’t technology. Jo: Yes, I absolutely get this, and I think there’s also another aspect, which I feel you must feel too. There are some days, if I use AI a lot, I almost feel like a hangover. Because the speed at which I can now work means that my human wetware brain is overloaded. That feeling is both exhilarating and amazing, but also totally exhausting. Anna: Yes. There’s a huge comedown from it. To me, in the beginning, it started feeling like eating a lot of sugar. Really, really great eating all these lollies. “Oh, this is amazing. These are so good.” And then afterwards, “Oh, I still feel hungry. I don’t feel fulfilled. I’m surrounded by lolly wrappers. What is this?” It felt a lot like that to me, where it’s just creating all this stuff, and it felt like I was the master of the universe. Wow, I can create anything and everything, and let me do this and that and this and that. Then I’m like, well, but all of the stuff I’ve created isn’t that great, because it doesn’t feel that good, and I didn’t really make it. I just pushed buttons and said yes. It’s a weird disconnect kind of hangover feeling if you spend too much time and create too much that way. Jo: It makes me think of the BCI, the brain-computer interface. With Neuralink now, there are people who are paraplegic for whom it is absolutely amazing, but the thought of plugging something into my brain that would try and make my brain go even faster, I’m like, I don’t think that our human brains are designed to go this fast. I just can’t. Anna: That’s fair. Jo: I can’t see that happening. Anna: It’s a tough one. Personally, I have ADHD, so already the distractions are something I have to rein in, and then with this ability to create so many things all at once, it’s hard to have some self-control. I think with time that, for me, has gotten much easier, but in the early days it was a lot. It was very overstimulating to have so many things happening so quickly, all at the same time. Jo: Yes, and actually I’m quite grateful for the usage limits. I primarily use Claude Fable, which I just love, but I keep an eye on my usage limits, and then I almost use that as a way to stop myself from using it too much at once, and that is actually very freeing. The other thing, I mean, you mentioned it there, creating all the things and then realising, you said, they’re not that good. I think that they are becoming incredibly excellent, but for me it was like, okay, well, now, for example, I could do TikTok. I could get AI to do loads of TikTok videos and pump them out every day, but I don’t want to do that. So why would I? Anna: Yes. I really want things that go out to feel like me, and I feel when I generate anything, whether it’s content, whether it’s pictures, or software as well, that AI will very quickly get me 80 to 90% of the way there, and very well these days. But the last 10 to 20%, I really put so much of myself into, and that’s a really active choice. So I end up with all these other things that I’ve gotten to that 80% very quickly and then thought, “I don’t know if I really want to invest myself in this and what I need to get it to a place where I would put it into the world.” So I end up with a sort of graveyard of these mostly finished projects that I’m not quite happy enough with to put out there, but I don’t really want to put in the work myself, because I have limited time, and you choose your things. No human can really polish up 100 things. You have to prioritise what you want to. Jo: That is exactly it, and this is what I want people to understand. Everything you’re saying and everything I’m saying, we are talking about feeling a lot. We’re excited on the one hand and we’re doing stuff, and then there are other things we’re not excited about. You can feel the difference in your body, in your mind, when what you are working on excites you, and I think we just have to trust that. So people listening, what excites you to do with these tools, and what doesn’t excite you? Just trust that feeling and put things in the world where you’re like, “Wow, this is fantastic,” or, “I love that it’s helping me with that.” I mean, you can just tell the difference in our conversation, right? Anna: Right, and you don’t have to put everything out there as well. Just because you build something with AI, or you use it to help you in something, it’s an experiment. Treat it as an experiment. If you get to 80%, 90% and think, “I don’t want to put my name to this,” then don’t. Move on. It was an experiment, and you learned something from it. Jo: So I guess on that then, if we do put things out in the world, like we’ve talked about, we’re happily AI-assisted, and the things we do put out we’re really proud of— How can we communicate these aspects of imperfection, the story behind the object, this real person with a real history, so that people know our humanity, basically? Anna: I really encourage people to share their humanness behind everything they’re creating. If you’re writing a book, you can share the process on socials, for example. It’s becoming very desired to see the not-polished, everyday videos of someone’s creative process. That’s just one really small way. I think just by nature, by creating it, by not letting AI do the creation work for you, you will show through in the work that you’re doing. You can use AI to support you and to do the admin and to take away all the stuff that’s boring or repetitive, but if you are doing the work, it is going to be visible to people. I know we’re not very good as humans right now at necessarily distinguishing AI-generated content against not, but you can tell when someone is writing about a human experience. AI has not had a human experience. It has not had a body. It doesn’t have this embodiment that leads to so much of human creativity and ideas. It is a very clever predictive text tool, and it is very, very good at it, but it does lack true human creativity. So I think what all creatives can keep in mind is that if they’re putting themselves into it and creating new things and following their passions and their interests and their art in what they’re putting out there, it will show through. Jo: Also, I think just on the marketing side, you mentioned your garden, for example. Now, I know you’re a mum, but anyone can share pictures of their garden without privacy issues for their children or their family or anything. So I think sharing human, even like your hand in the dirt with some flowers or something, is still a very human image. So people can share more human elements around their life. I mean, I almost have in my Instagram a sort of proof of humanity at this point. Anna: Yes, I think that’s becoming more and more important. A few weeks ago, I got a horrible review on my book, and I know everyone has to face this, but it was someone who clearly hadn’t read my book. They just said it was all AI-generated crap, pretty much. It was a waste of time, and it should’ve come with a warning that it was entirely AI-generated, which is so far from the truth. I put so much time into that book that I was really quite hurt by it. My first thought was, “I need to get rid of this. I need this review to go away. I need to complain. I need to report this review because it is false.” And once I recovered from those feelings, instead what I did was I emailed my mailing list and said, “Hey, this person reviewed this, and this is why it hurt me, because I’m a person.” I got a really nice response. I got a lot of people writing to me like, “That person is an idiot. You’re great. Your book’s wonderful.” And it was so nice. It was quite challenging to be vulnerable, and instead of trying to sweep this thing under the rug, I just showed up with my humanness to my list and said, “Hey, this is me, and this hurts because I’m a person.” It was really validating in the end to just put some humanness out there. Jo: This is what I really hate about all this witch hunting, is that people seem to have forgotten that there are actual humans behind this, and I know how you feel. I remember, in fact, it was 2023, I was in New Zealand. We should have said, you’re in Australia, if people are wondering about your accent. Anna: I am. I’m from New Zealand originally. I’m a New Zealander, but I’m living in Australia. Jo: But I remember walking along the waterfront from the Viaduct. I still remember it, because I was being absolutely hammered on social media and comments and all this, and I said to my husband, “I think I have to leave the internet.” I felt like people just don’t understand this, and I was getting so much hate. But as you say, it was about communicating that with my community, who are listening, and basically changing my Patreon to put a lot of it behind the Patreon paywall. I also topped doing a lot of interviews like this because of the negativity. Now, I’m hoping that we’ve moved on enough that people can be more open. Doing this interview, for example, is a way of showing people your humanity and mine. I’m just so determined that people understand the difference between assistance and generation. As you said at the beginning, it seems to be all or nothing, but that’s just not true. Anna: Right, and there’s a huge spectrum of what AI support is. A huge, huge spectrum, and I don’t think they’re understanding. I think it will get there, but right now people say, “Well, that was AI-generated,” or it wasn’t. That’s just not how it is. Maybe it was partially AI-generated. Maybe it was fully AI-assisted, but not at all AI-generated. Maybe you decide to use AI to make your book cover, but you just make components with AI, and then you assemble it using Adobe Illustrator into a cover. Is that AI-generated? It’s a very grey area. No, it’s definitely assisted. Pieces of it might be AI-generated, but it as a whole conceptually fully came from your creativity and from your mind. It’s the same with writing. If you use Grammarly to autocorrect any spelling errors in your book, it would now get flagged as AI-assisted content. But some people see that as AI-generated, and they’re two very, very different things. Jo: Well, I think your book is great. It gives some very grounded advice on things, but also you do share, like you mentioned, a lot about being a mum, about being a gardener, about life, about the human aspect. So I highly recommend What Machines Can’t Replace: Why AI Makes Us More Human. Where can people find you and the book online? Anna: Thank you so much. My book should be just about everywhere books are sold online, and if not, WhatMachinesCantReplace.com is the website for my book. My personal website is Anna.kiwi, A-N-N-A dot kiwi, because I’m a Kiwi, and I am very happy with that domain. I have a blog and general contact information there. I’m also all around the internet on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, everywhere. So I’m really happy to chat to anyone anytime about all things engineering, software, AI, books, toddlers, gardens, everything. Jo: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Anna. That was great. Anna: Thank you so much. The post What Machines Can’t Replace: Why AI Makes Us More Human With Anna McPhee first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you redesign your author business for the publishing environment that actually exists, rather than the one you wish you had? And how do you decide which marketing efforts will still bring readers to your books in ten years’ time? Tracy Cooper-Posey shares her solar sail theory after more than 25 years as an author. In the intro, reviving your backlist [The Indy Author]; AI as a medium [Tim O’Reilly]; How to Write, Publish, and Market Short Stories – Joanna Penn. ProWritingAid Storyteller sale: Thursday, 3rd September until September 13th 2026 — 25% off all annual licenses as well as Story Critique credits. Today’s show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Tracy Cooper-Posey is the multi-award-winning author of over 200 novels and works of nonfiction, science fiction, fantasy, romance, and historical fiction under three pen names. Her books for authors include The Indie Author Survival Guide and The Productive Indie Fiction Writer. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Learning to write again after chemo, one sentence at a time What enshittification means, and why it is the environment rather than you The hallmarks of an indie author business that persists over time The solar sail theory of long-term discoverability Why social media and paid ads have such a short half-life How to find and reduce the operational drag on your business You can find Tracy at ProductiveIndieFictionWriter.com or StoriesRulePress.com. Transcript of the interview with Tracy Cooper-Posey Jo: Tracy Cooper-Posey is the multi-award-winning author of over 200 novels and works of nonfiction, science fiction, fantasy, romance, and historical fiction under three pen names. Her books for authors include The Indie Author Survival Guide and The Productive Indie Fiction Writer. So welcome back to the show, Tracy. Tracy: Hi, Jo. It’s great to be back. Jo: Yes. So you were last on the show in October 2023 talking about The Productive Indie Fiction Writer, and we went into depth then. So give us a bit of an update on your author business and also your life. Because it has been a bit of an up and down. Tracy: Yes, it’s been a very interesting three years, because I had just gone into remission with cancer when we were talking last. Now I’m out of remission again and facing treatment in the next few weeks. My husband got cancer and went through treatment, and he’s cured. So life has been pretty interesting. All that has made me do a lot of deep thinking about the indie author business and my own business and writing in general. So I’m still here. I’m still publishing, 200 plus books now. I had to learn how to write again. But the writing has shifted a lot towards science fiction and fantasy, including cosy science fiction now, which is the new genre that’s just creeping in. All three pen names have been Aurealis Award finalists, which is nice. I’m still continuing the nonfiction work, which is something that you said the last time that we spoke. You said, “Now that you’ve written one, it’s likely you’ll write more nonfiction.” And I did. Jo: You did. They’re excellent books. Just on that, you mentioned cosy sci-fi. For anyone who might not know, where is that genre? What’s in that genre of cosy sci-fi? Tracy: It’s not really officially a genre yet. It started off with cosy fantasy, which was where the cosy started. Actually, technically it started with cosy mystery, and everyone understands cosy mystery. The body and the murder are off stage. There’s a lot of tea drinking. There’s lots of friends, and it’s all very polite and mannered. You’re focusing more on the emotions and the feel, and they’ve picked up that cosy aspect of mystery and put it on fantasy. So you get books like, I think the primary one is Legends and Lattes. It’s about an orc that’s running a coffee shop because they got sick of fighting, and the adventures that they have trying to run their coffee shop. So if you pick up that same cosy sensation and put it on science fiction, that’s cosy science fiction. But it’s so new that it doesn’t have a category on Amazon or anything like that. Cosy fantasy does now. Amazon just created a cosy fantasy category a while ago. But cosy science fiction is so new that people are still arguing over which books are cosy science fiction and which are not. Jo: Oh, that’s interesting. You’re incredibly prolific. You always have been. You mentioned there that you had to learn how to write again after cancer. What do you think happened, and how did you relearn? Because there are people listening who go through these similar things. Tracy: I think a lot of what happened was, well, life just became incredibly complex and challenging, and just getting through a day of pain took a lot of the energy, what they call the spoons. I didn’t have the spoons to write anymore. Also you get chemo brain, which is the really interesting one. When I was going through chemo, I would look at a spreadsheet and just couldn’t figure out how it worked. It just didn’t make sense to me, so I had to hand over the finances and everything to Mark, which was rather interesting. The way I got myself back into writing again was, it was such an alien idea that writing wasn’t even on my radar from day to day. I just didn’t have the energy or the concentration to do it. So I started off really, really small. The first thing I did was read a lot of favourite books from other authors just to remember why I loved reading. Then I started reading my own books that I had written, just to remind myself of what I used to love about my own work. Then I just cracked the manuscript one day and read as far as I had written and thought, “Okay, what’s the next sentence?” And that’s the only thing that I would let myself do, was just write the next sentence. That’s it. So I wrote the next sentence, and sat there and thought, “Do I want to write the next sentence?” On that particular day, no, I didn’t. But I just kept opening the manuscript and looking and thinking about the next sentence, and eventually I wrote a few more. I think it was that coming back to the manuscript over and over with no pressure, just look at it, can you get the next sentence written? Very slowly I started building up, and now I’m pretty much back to the speed that I was at before the diagnosis. Jo: So I guess we could think about it in the same way that your body is physically recovering, your mind is also recovering. It almost feels like people want to disconnect the two. If you get a physical injury, that shouldn’t affect your brain. But as you mentioned, having chemo, that in itself is difficult and has impacts on your brain. So if people think about it more as an injury you have to come back from, rather than day one you’re back in, I guess. Tracy: Yes. It’s really a rehabilitation-style process, and I think the key is you’ve got to take all pressure off yourself. I know that, for me in particular, because I was such a workhorse, I could feel this stress because I just wasn’t getting things done. Once I gave myself permission to just take as long as it takes and just keep coming back to it, that helped enormously. It still took time for that rehabilitation process to actually work. There’s a lot of forgiving yourself, and it has to be a gentle process, I think, because situations like cancer and chemo and whatever the situation is that’s pulled you away from your manuscript, they’re big life events, and there is a lot of stress involved with them both physically and mentally. So you have to give yourself time. Jo: Yes, it’s so important. Okay, well, also in these last three years, as you said, you’ve got back to writing, and one of the books you have also written is The Anti-Enshittification Field Manual for Indie Authors. You also use Cory Doctorow’s enshittification concept around the mature indie author industry. So just talk about what that term [enshittification] means? We think it is now established in the industry, in terms of what is going on there. How do we recognise it and adjust? Tracy: It’s a very interesting term. The first time I heard it I raised my brows a bit. I was thinking, “Well, that’s a bit cheeky.” The more you think about it, the more appropriate the name is. Basically, Cory Doctorow’s idea is that any platform, so for the sake of this discussion, let’s say Amazon, starts out serving its users extremely well because it needs them. When everyone first got into indie publishing, Amazon was open doors and you could just publish a book and it would sell, because they would push the book and they would do everything they could to make sure that readers saw your book. Then slowly and increasingly, the platform extracts value from those users for somebody else’s benefit, usually shareholders, and ultimately for itself. You can track this process where it starts off really great for the users and then slowly shifts so that it becomes a less than stellar experience for the users. For indie authors, we’re particularly exposed because our business sits on top of these platforms. So recognising that a lot of the platforms that we use now have enshittified, excuse me, or are in the process of doing that, that really helps. Because I think for years we were treating everything as a separate problem. We were worrying about organic reach, we were worrying about advertising becoming more expensive. There’s subscription creep, there’s deteriorating customer service, algorithm changes. Visibility was increasingly pay to play, and it’s so much more than that now. The platforms keep removing features or changing the terms. Individually it just looks like a mess, but as soon as you put them together and say, “Oh, I understand now. The platform is enshittifying,” you can see the structural pattern. It actually applies to so many platforms and services. Once you see it, well, for me in particular, that was an enormously positive realisation, because until I saw the pattern, I thought I was failing, and nothing I was doing seemed to work anymore. Once I understood the environment itself had changed, I could stop trying to fix myself and start redesigning the business for the environment that actually exists. Jo: Yes, and that is the point. Redesigning your business for the environment that exists. Because what you mentioned there, I feel like some people still think that organic reach exists. I guess some people will say, “Oh, well, at the moment you can still put a video on, say, TikTok, and it might find an audience there.” Are people still building an audience in these newer platforms? But I think that’s the point, isn’t it? I guess Substack would be another one. Although we already see that heading in the same direction, with various things. As soon as you go in there thinking, “Yes, I’m going to get organic reach,” even if there is any, it follows this way, doesn’t it? Tracy: It does. And this is what’s so great about it, is once you recognise this pattern, you see it everywhere, and you can actually track a new platform through that process, and you can anticipate that, okay, maybe we’re going to get organic discovery right now, but that’s going to diminish. That way you’re not disappointed, and you’re all set up for when that happens. That means that you can reduce your dependency on these platforms and not expect them to behave like they did in 2011. Jo: It’s interesting, though, with Amazon, for example, we’ve definitely seen that as authors. But on the other side, as a customer, as a reader particularly, I used to find a lot of books on Amazon directly. I’m almost entirely now finding books elsewhere, often through AI, actually, often through Claude. Tracy: Yes, exactly. Jo: And then going on Amazon to maybe get the book. It feels like for readers it’s changed too, right? Tracy: Exactly. I mean, indie authors are particularly vulnerable because their entire business is built on these platforms, but this applies to everyone. It’s not just indie authors. As you say, it’s readers. They’re noticing too that the decay of these platforms is starting to impact them as users. I’m exactly like you. I tend to buy my books from Kobo, but I will buy my books from anywhere, and I learn about those books from a dozen different places. I don’t rely on just one platform anymore. It’s really great once you understand this because then you can build an independent mindset that lets you flex around issues. Jo: Yes, and obviously we like to dwell on the positives here. So given that this is just a reality of the market and various platforms— What are the hallmarks of an indie author business that is more likely to persist over time given the reality of this? Tracy: Okay. Well, I think that the biggest part of it is, as I mentioned before, it’s the mindset. Recognising these patterns is really a big one, recognising where a platform is in the process. Also developing a very independent mindset. I mean, we’ve been saying we’re indie authors since 2011, but we were still really relying on those platforms to provide most of our business. I think these days the new indie author is much more independently minded. Even though you’re using the platforms, and we’re all using them, you develop a flexibility. You understand the industry, and you’re making plans ahead of it, so you’ve got the flexibility there, and the business thinking, which really helps. You deal with any problems that come up. Every time there’s an algorithm change, you’re not going to wake up in the morning and just go through mourning because half your income has disappeared. You’re ready with alternatives, and you’ve got different things that you can try. So that mindset, that thinking about and recognising patterns and how the industry is going, is critical. Once you’ve got that in place, then there’s a huge number of strategies that you might want to incorporate. This is the thing, every indie author’s business is different. We’re all in different situations. I have health challenges, someone else may have a day job. I write a lot of books. Someone may be only able to produce a couple of books a year. We’re writing in different genres. If you’re writing literature, that’s different from the sort of science fiction that I write. So the business and how it responds to the conditions out there is going to be different as well. So what you do as an author and for your business will be different. There’s a lot of strategies that you can try and see which are most effective for you. One of the biggest, for instance, is something that you say a lot too, diversify your income. Have a durable backlist. Work to get your backlist built up. Direct sales is another strategy that I would say is almost mandatory for every indie author these days. I know a lot of indie authors are going, “Oh, but I’ve only got two books.” Doesn’t matter. If you can sell from your site using just a PayPal link, that’s direct sales, and that works. That gives you a lot more independence and agency. Owning your reader relationships, making sure that you keep the readers close, I think that’s another critical one. Making sure that you’re resilient for the platform so you can adjust when there’s changes. And on and on. There’s a lot of things that you can do to adapt. Jo: Yes. I think it’s interesting just thinking about when you said, for example, direct sales is good for every indie author. I would say every indie author who wants to have a long-term business—and I think that’s a really key thing. Because I feel like it’s still important to have a difference between people who are writing primarily as a hobby or are not looking for the financial income that you and I think about. So I think that’s one thing. I totally agree with you that just having a PayPal button or even selling some physical copies at a local fair or something, that all counts. I think it almost proves something and gives you that more independent mindset. It’s like, “Yes, I can actually do this.” That is such a powerful reframe rather than, “I cannot do anything except upload my book on Amazon.” Tracy: Yes. And actually, funny you should mention the live markets, because we experimented over the last year with attending a few live markets and selling books, and there is a genuine power, a little thrill that you get when you sell a book, and you can sign it on the spot for them, and the reader is right there and you’re face to face. That process is suddenly not this anonymous process, where you find that you’ve sold a book overnight and you’ve got no idea who it is that bought it. That person’s right there in front of you, so you can sign the book for them and you have a little exchange. It’s really empowering to build that independence into your business. Jo: Yes, and then you also mentioned the durable backlist. Do you think that having books in multiple genres, including nonfiction, is part of how you can make a living? As in, I think people often think, “Oh, maybe if I just write 20 books in one series.” I mean, maybe that works in some genres. I guess thrillers, actually, that can sometimes work, but you do so many things. Is it the 80/20 rule, that 20% of your books make 80% of the income, or does it literally vary from year to year? Tracy: Well, it does swing from year to year. But yes, generally the 80/20 rule holds. It’s different from year to year, which 20% is making the 80% of the money. As I mentioned, I’m moving into science fiction and fantasy more, because that’s actually more successful for me right now than the romance is. The other thing is, I think it really comes down to the individual author too. Some authors do very well just doing the one genre or even just the one series, and for them it’s great. I always worry that that’s putting all your eggs in one basket. I think, though, to counter that vulnerability, if you’re just doing one series or one genre, go wide. Sell as wide as you can, and that gives you a bit of a hedge against vulnerability. It’s a different situation for every author, and it’s very hard for me to say, “Well, here’s a 15-step list that’ll give you all the answers,” because that 15-step list doesn’t exist anymore, if it ever did. Just because everyone’s business is so different. You need to do a lot of experimenting, I think, and find what works for you. That sounds like I’m waving off the answer, but I’m really not. You really do have to figure it out for yourself. If you do adopt that experimental mindset and say, “Okay, I’m going to do this for six months and track my statistics and see if there’s any results there worth pursuing.” Jo: See what happens. Yes, and it’s interesting you’ve also moved more into the nonfiction. Let’s get into your solar sail theory, because I’ve followed you on and off since we met, like a decade ago. Tracy: It was 10 years ago. Jo: I know. It’s crazy. It’s really crazy. For those listening, we met in Oregon, at the Oregon Workshops with Dean Wesley Smith and Kristine Kathryn Rusch. I’ve been reading your blog pretty avidly around this solar sail theory, which I love, and now you’re talking about writing science fiction, I can appreciate it more. What is your solar sail theory and some of the ways to build it? Tracy: Okay, so solar sail theory is a theory in science. Well, I was going to say science fiction, but there’s solid science behind it. Solar sails are a way, they think, because it’s never been proven yet, of propelling a spacecraft. You have this huge sail, like kilometres wide, and what it does is it captures photons. Photons are basically light. So when the light hits the solar sail, it gives it a minuscule amount of push, but there’s no friction in space, so that push just keeps the ship going and going. So when you’ve got kilometres of sail, all the photons hitting that can bring a ship up to enormous speeds, like a fraction of light speed, which sounds small if you’re not used to science, but a fraction of light speed is enormously fast, and these solar sails can bring a ship up to those sorts of speeds. So you can cross to the next star without needing faster-than-light travel or warp speed or something like that. Put that theory over the top of the indie publishing industry and you suddenly get a very interesting way of thinking about the industry, and it helps you make decisions. So it’s not a prescription. Again, it’s not a 15-step, here’s how to conquer the universe. It’s a decision matrix. It helps you figure out what’s going to work for you. Whatever strategy or tactic it is that you’re thinking about doing, you can ask the question, does this extend my sail? So does it leave something behind that can continue to make me discoverable? So for instance, a 30-second radio advertisement probably is not going to leave anything behind that’ll let readers discover you, because once it’s aired, it’s gone. On the other hand, a podcast interview like this. The podcast interview that I did with you three years ago, I’m still getting people finding me and finding The Productive Indie Fiction Writer three years later because of that. So that’s extending the sail, and it’s just a little tiny push, like a photon. Blog posts also, they surface indefinitely, so readers can find them 10 years later. And because you’re the host of your own podcast, all your podcast interviews and the website, they’re also creating surface area, so people keep finding you years later. Also guest articles, and a book in a library. Your entire back catalogue is all part of the solar sail. Jo: I know people listening are going, “But what about social media?” Tracy: Yes. Social media is a tricky one because it’s such a short half-life. I think on Facebook, if anyone sees your post at all, after two hours it’s basically gone. They never see it unless they actually go to your account, and they need to have heard of you in order to go to your account and see the post. So that makes social media not really a good solar sail builder. It has other uses, and as long as you understand that it does have this very short half-life, then you can use it for the things that it’s good at. Jo: Yes, the same with paid ads, for example. Paid ads are the same as social media. Perhaps a quicker push, but as you say, the half-life is quicker. Tracy: Yes. Exactly. Paid ads come and go. There’s nothing out there that’ll let the reader find you in a couple of years’ time. So they’re very short term. A lot of people can build their business on these short-term things. They spend thousands of dollars on paid ads each month, and that works for them, but if they stop doing it, then their business halts. It comes to a grinding halt. Whereas if you’re building your solar sail, it’s a long-term way of setting up your business, so it just keeps ticking on. Jo: Your series of posts on the solar sail, which are also in The Indie Author Survival Guide, they are nonfiction, useful things. So what about for the fiction side? What do you suggest people do around content marketing? Tracy: Well, it all applies to both fiction and nonfiction. I usually write, because The Productive Indie Fiction Writer is addressing fiction authors, this does all apply to fiction as well. As I was saying, your book catalogue, because you’re on Amazon, and Barnes & Noble, and Kobo, and Apple, and maybe Google as well, all of those pages are part of your sail. Your own site, all the book pages on your own site are part of the sail. There’s different ways to do it, but the common one is you have this standard sail out there that helps readers find you. You coax them to come to your site, and there you try to capture them as readers. So that usually means your email list. Some people use Substack now. There are other alternatives I’m sure I haven’t thought of, but email seems to be the principal one. Then you can build that relationship with the readers over the long term. The solar sail just brings all those readers to you so that you can develop that relationship and keep the readers close. For fiction authors, I think this is critical. This helps you build independence from the retail platforms. Jo: Yes, it is interesting. I would put podcasting and YouTube in particular. So I had someone, they were in my Patreon, and they said, “I’m no longer subscribed to your email list because I hear from you in Patreon and on the podcast.” I was thinking about my own behaviour, and for the podcast that I am a hardcore fan of, I’m not on their email list. I was thinking it is because my relationship with those people is more auditory, I guess. The same with YouTubers. People end up subscribing to your YouTube channel. Then the problem still is, if I stop podcasting today, then I can’t contact those people again. Except that I know lots of podcasters who stop podcasting and then maybe two years later they just pop on with an update episode. And people are like, “Oh, I never unsubscribed from you on my feed.” So that can appear years later. I definitely still agree that the email list is primary. But if you’re somebody listening and you’re a more audio or video person, I think we can probably think about the relationship with people on these different dimensions. Tracy: Yes, and some people definitely prefer the audio. I’m utterly text-based myself. I prefer to read. But yes, podcasting, apart from anything else, is a way of keeping contact with the readers, and they can email you in return. So it is a two-way process, so you can develop that relationship. So if that works for you, that is a good alternative. The other thing is too, of course, every episode that you’ve recorded and put on a webpage is also building your sail. So more and more people are finding you. So podcasting is interesting. If you’re guest posting on someone else’s blog, that’s a somewhat time-consuming way, but it does build up your sail as well. Jo: The only problem with that, I would say, as someone who used to have guest posts, is it’s still my website. When it came to auditing my website, about five years ago—and the thing is, because my website’s been around since 2008, I had some people guest posting in the early days—and I was like, “This should not be here anymore.” So I am able to get rid of people’s things when they’re on my site, in the same way that Amazon can take down your book or whatever. Tracy: Yes, and that’s where the anti-enshittification process comes in. That’s where developing that independent mindset comes in. One of the questions that you need to ask is, how permanent is this? What happens if it goes away? Tat’s why blogging on your own site is probably a stronger and better decision than guest blogging on other people’s sites, because they have control of that. Jo: Yes, absolutely. So there’s so much in these books. These are all excellent books. I feel like you know so much after decades in the trenches, and I love that you’re putting out everything in these books. I did want to ask you one specific thing, because obviously we’re increasing the size of our sail. But if we have massive amounts of drag, so we have sea anchors or whatever we want to call it in our metaphor, we have to sort that out too. So in The Indie Author Survival Guide, you have a section on protecting the margins. So I wondered if you would talk about the specific ways to think about what is operational drag and how can we reduce it? Tracy: Well, we just actually hit the perfect example. Guest blogging has more drag than blogging on your own site does, because you don’t have control over it, so it can disappear. It requires maintenance. It takes your time. So drag is basically anything that is going to slow you down once you’ve built up speed, coming back to the solar sail theory. The sail will keep you moving, but because we’re not working in a vacuum anymore, we’re not in space, there are things that can slow you down. Particularly for mature author businesses, we accumulate all this cruft. For instance, Barnes & Noble recently changed their website so that all the URLs for a book changed, and that doesn’t sound like a big deal, but I’ve got 200 books. So suddenly the links didn’t work pointing to Barnes & Noble for every book. So the Books2Read universal book links had to be changed for all 200 books. Jo: Oh, I did know that and I haven’t done it. Tracy: This is the thing, is when you’ve only got five books, it’s like 10 minutes’ worth of work, no problems, and you just move on. When you’ve got 200 books, that’s suddenly a big deal. I only found out accidentally that they had changed them, and once I had confirmed that every single link no longer worked, it was suddenly a massive project. There’s also the money drag. Everything these days is software as a subscription. Even Microsoft Office, you’ve got to pay the fee every year. It works well in theory, because you’re getting updated software all the time, but you have a dozen of those or two dozen, suddenly you’re spending a lot of money every year for software that once upon a time we used to pay a flat fee for and that was it. So it pays to go through and figure out what expenses you can get rid of or diminish, or can you find a cheaper version. There’s advertising. Some advertising just isn’t worth spending the money on. If you’re doing pay-per-click advertising, you need to monitor it all the time, so that’s a time sink that you’re blowing money on, technically, because your time is money. There’s also, you may not be managing it quite as well as you could, so you’re actually burning more money because the ads are not working as effectively as they could. More drag. You need to go through every aspect. There’s time drag, repetitive tasks. For instance, Mark and I have, for about, I think we’re coming up on 11 years now, we track our sales. Every morning we sit down and go through every platform and record the sales for that day in a spreadsheet so that we can do analysis. It’s a good way to spend time because it’s got extreme uses. There’s a lot of little tasks that you might do, especially if you’ve been working in the business as long as I have. All these little tasks will build up, and suddenly you forget why you’re doing them. Or the conditions have changed and it’s not worth doing them anymore. They may not be providing the value that they once used to. So you have to go through and make sure that you’re reducing the drag on your business as much as possible so that you can keep moving. Jo: Yes. I had two more extra ones there. You mentioned the things that we do that perhaps we don’t need to do anymore. If people are outsourcing, if you have virtual assistants, if you are paying for some kind of service outside your own time, sometimes you can have that going and then when you think, do I need that anymore? So I know some people still do pay for turning posts into social media or making book trailers. That’s a good one. Or there’s things that people are paying for, and then you might realise that you don’t need that service anymore, or you don’t need everything that that social media manager is doing anymore. So realistically looking at the benefits of what you’re getting. Tracy: Yes, constant review. Jo: Yes. Constant review. Then the other thing I was thinking is a mindset drag. So right now, as we’re recording this, in the author community, there’s this witch hunting going on around AI usage. Tracy: Yes. Jo: It’s the latest thing that’s causing massive drama. I feel like it’s almost mindset drag to get dragged into some of this drama, and it saps the energy. That can really pull on your boat, on your solar boat. Tracy: Well, actually, I’ve found that, and this is all part of the indie author mindset, and it’s also part of the anti-enshittification process too. I did a lot of research on AI. I did a lot of reading. I listened to a lot of different discussions about it, and then I formed my own policy. What’s my policy for AI? What’s my policy around AI and its use and so forth? I find that once I had developed that policy for myself, suddenly there’s not as much mental drag with all the AI discussions and the witch hunts and all the drama that’s going on around it, because I know where I’m sitting and I’m quite comfortable with my position. So I think for a lot of people, it can become very emotional and draining if you still haven’t figured out where you sit on the spectrum of AI use. But that’s actually how I tackled it, because I was getting very tired of all the dramas. It is draining, and it worries you. So I deliberately went out and did a lot of research and reading, and figured out where I stood, and that made a huge difference for me. Jo: Yes. And again, that’s something to look at on your schedule. So maybe in a year’s time you re-look at things again and change your decision. I think the same thing with the traditional versus self-publishing versus wide versus KU, and you could just go on. There are pros and cons in every single direction, right? At the end of the day, it’s almost the decision fatigue that’s stopping you. Or you could say, again, our solar boat has to go in a particular direction. You can’t go in every direction at the same time. You just have to make a decision, right? Tracy: Yes. I think being as informed as possible about the industry is one of the big ones. I’ve spent a lot of time doing a lot of reading, not just about indie publishing over the last few years, but everything to do with publishing and also everything to do with business, because we are in business. That’s a bit of a cliché, that a lot of indie authors, their eyes just glaze over when they hear that you’re in business. There are aspects of running a business that we just don’t get taught as indie authors or as creatives that I think we should be teaching each other or getting each other to learn, because it’s basic business survival. Things like pricing, that is an enormously complex business topic, pricing. Most of us are, “Well, what’s everyone else doing? Okay, I’ll do that.” That’s how they make their decisions. There’s a lot more to it than that, and it’s very complex. We don’t have to get a PhD in business management, but I think a little bit more awareness about basic business principles would serve all of us much better. Jo: Yes, there’s always so much to learn, but I actually think you’ve done a really good job with your books. I mean, The Indie Author Survival Guide is a great place to start. They’re super, super useful. I do want to talk about—as we come to an end—you’ve been doing this a long time, as have I, and we’ve both got some battle scars along the way. You do end your books with hopeful realism, which I like. Now, I’m definitely more of an optimist than you, but I feel like hopeful realism is a good place. So how can people cultivate that feeling of hopeful realism around the business? Tracy: I don’t know. Are you more of an optimist than me? Anyway. Well, let’s see, because for me, all the book writing and all the research and all the reading that I’ve been doing over the last few years have given me back a lot of optimism that I didn’t have. As I was saying, it was feeling as though I couldn’t do anything right. So learning that it wasn’t just me that’s the problem gave me back my confidence. So that’s where the hopeful realism and the optimism came in. So hopeful realism, okay, it comes from understanding, from agency, and from choice. If you understand the industry as it actually exists, not the way you wish it did, and you understand the forces acting on your business and where you sit within them, that helps enormously. Just having that knowledge there, you can see what’s going on, you understand what’s going on. It’s not all a mystery, and you’re not scratching your head wondering what to do next. Because of that understanding, you get agency. You’re not helpless. When circumstances change, you can respond. You can make decisions instead of simply having things happen to you, and all of that gives you choice. You can go out and research and find out what your options are, and you can choose the best option for you. If that doesn’t work, you can go and try something else. So you’ve got a lot of choices, and you’ve got things that you can do. You’re not helpless. So hopeful realism, I think, is pretty optimistic. Jo: Brilliant. So where can people find you and your books online? Tracy: If you’re interested in my nonfiction, the best place to find me is at The Productive Indie Fiction Writer. If you want to find out more about my fiction, the best place to find that is to go to StoriesRulePress.com. My three pen names are there, and also Mark, my husband, who is a writer as well. And shortly, I think, another member of the family’s going to be joining us as well. So it’s a very family affair on Stories Rule Press. Jo: Well, thanks so much for your time, Tracy. That was great. Tracy: Thank you very much. I’m thrilled I was able to come back and talk again. Thanks, Joanna. The post How To Redesign Your Author Business For The Environment That Actually Exists, With Tracy Cooper-Posey first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can the Fast Drafting method help you finally finish your novel? And how do you make progress when you only have 30 minutes a day to write? Jessica Brody shares her tips for finishing first drafts after 20 years as an author. The post From Page One To Done: Fast Drafting Your Novel With Jessica Brody first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you get your books surfaced when readers ask an AI what to read next? What are the hallmarks of authors and businesses that last more than a decade in the indie author industry? Ricardo Fayet gives his marketing tips after more than a decade at Reedsy. The post Book Marketing, AI Book Discoverability, And Resilience, With Ricardo Fayet first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you tell where the real innovation in publishing is happening right now, and why is it emerging from the indie side first? How do you market your own book when you've spent 35 years marketing everyone else's? John Bond talks about Going Indie and what he's learned about authors who last. In the intro, my thoughts on writing with AI, Charles Dickens and encouragement for the 3-year-old dancing to K-Pop at the wedding, UK copyright law, The end of an era — Hugh Howey; Notre Dame, Paris The post Going Indie, Publishing Innovation, And The Challenges Of Book Marketing With John Bond first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can content marketing in a tight niche build the audience that launches your book? And how do you decide whether to hand your self-published bestseller to a traditional publisher. Suzanne Smith shares what she learned in four years of going from blog to book deal. The post From Blog To Community To Book: A Non-Fiction Author’s Journey With Suzanne Smith first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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How can organic writing and leaning into the pivot help your stories stand out? And how can you pitch a story as a discovery writer if you genuinely don’t know what’s going to happen next. Steven James gives his writing tips after more than 20 years as an author. In the intro, Better Than Free […] The post Organic Writing And The Power Of The Pivot In Fiction With Steven James first appeared on The Creative Penn.

After more than a decade of releasing this show on Mondays, I’m moving it to Wednesdays, and this is the first episode of the new time slot.  On the one hand, this might sound like nothing at all, but it’s also a big deal, for you and for me, and in this episode, I explain why I'm making the change, and past guests give some tips on sustainable creativity for the long term. The post Why The Podcast Is Moving To Wednesdays, And 7 Tips for Sustainable Creativity first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What's the difference between a bundle, a box set, an anthology, and a collection? How can being part of an anthology be creatively interesting and useful for marketing? With Jamie Ferguson The post Bundles, Box Sets and Anthologies With Jamie Ferguson first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What happens to your creativity when you’re in pain or sick, and can you ever get it back? How can you find and sharpen your author voice? J. Daniel Sawyer talks about voice mastery, writing with chronic pain, and building an eclectic author business. In the intro, leaning into your Strengths and deciding what you […] The post Author Voice Mastery, And Rebooting an Author Business With J. Daniel Sawyer first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do you write about the most painful experiences of your life without being overwhelmed by them? How can timed writing and a braided story help you untangle your hardest stories? With Nicole Walker. The post Writing The Hard Stuff: Turning Difficult Subjects Into Meaningful Prose With Nicole Walker first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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Kickstarter has become a key part of the author business for those who want to make more money per book, connect directly with readers, and produce beautiful editions they’re proud of. In this episode, I share excerpts from interviews with Oriana Leckert, Head of Publishing at Kickstarter, Russell Nohelty, and Sacha Black, alongside my own […] The post Kickstarter Tips for Authors: Rewards, Shipping, Marketing, and Lessons Learned first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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What does 2026 hold for indie authors and the publishing industry? I give my thoughts on trends and predictions for the year ahead. In the intro, Quitting the right stuff; how to edit your author business in 2026; Is SubStack Good for Indie Authors?; Business for Authors webinars. If you'd like to join my community and support the show every month, you'll get access to my growing list of Patron videos and audio on all aspects of the author business — for the price of a black coffee (or two) a month. Join us at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn. Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  (1) More indie authors will sell direct through Shopify, Kickstarter, and local in-person events (2) AI-powered search will start to shift elements of book discoverability (3) The start of Agentic Commerce (4) AI-assisted audiobook narration will go mainstream (5) AI-assisted translation will start to take off beyond the early adopters (6) AI video becomes ubiquitous. ‘Live selling’ becomes the next trend in social sales. (7) AI will create, run, and optimise ads without the need for human intervention (8) 1000 True Fans becomes more important than ever You can find all my books as J.F. Penn and Joanna Penn on your favourite online store in all the usual formats, or order from your local library or bookstore. You can also buy direct from me at CreativePennBooks.com and JFPennBooks.com. I'm not really active on social media, but you can always see my photos at Instagram @jfpennauthor. 2026 Trends and Predictions for Indie Authors and Book Publishing  (1) More indie authors will sell direct through Shopify, Kickstarter, and local in-person events —  and more companies like BookVault will offer even more beautiful physical books and products to support this. This trend will not be a surprise to most of you! Selling direct has been a trend for the last few years, but in 2026, it will continue to grow as a way that independent authors become even more independent.   The recent Written Word Media survey from Dec 2025 noted that 30% of authors surveyed are selling direct already and 30% say they plan to start in 2026. Among authors earning over $10,000 per month, roughly half sell direct.  In my opinion, selling direct is an advanced author strategy, meaning that you have multiple books and you understand book marketing and have an email list already or some guaranteed way to reach readers. In fact, Kindlepreneur reports that 66% of authors selling direct have more than 5 books, and 46% have more than 10 books.  Of course, you can start with the something small, like a table at a local event with a limited number of books for sale, but if you want to consistently sell direct for years to come, you need to consider all the business aspects. Selling direct is not a silver bullet.  It’s much harder work to sell direct than it is to just upload an ebook to Amazon, whether you choose a Kickstarter campaign, or Shopify/Payhip or other online stores, or regular in-person sales at events/conferences/fairs.  You need a business mindset and business practices, for example, you need to pay upfront for setup as well as ongoing management, and bulk printing in some cases. You need to manage taxes and cashflow. You need to be a lot more proactive about marketing, as you won’t sell anything if you don’t bring readers to your books/products.  But selling direct also brings advantages. It sets you apart from the bulk of digital only authors who still only upload ebooks to Amazon, or maybe add a print on demand book, and in an era of AI rapid creation, that number is growing all the time. If you sell direct, you get your customer data and you can reach those customers next time, through your email list. If you don’t know who bought your books and don’t have a guaranteed way to reach them, you will more easily be disrupted when things change — and they always change eventually. Kindlepreneur notes that “45% of the successful direct selling authors had over 1,000 subscribers on their email lists,” with “a clear, positive correlation between email list size and monthly direct sales income — with authors having an email list of over 15,000 subscribers earning 20X more than authors with email lists under 100 subscribers.”  Selling direct means faster money, sometimes the same day or the same week in many cases, or a few weeks after a campaign finishes, as with Kickstarter.  And remember, you don’t have to sell all your formats directly. You can keep your ebooks in KU, do whatever you like with audiobooks, and just have premium print products direct, or start with a very basic Kickstarter campaign, or a table at a local fair.  Lots more tips for Shopify and Kickstarter at https://www.thecreativepenn.com/selldirectresources/  I also recommend the Novel Marketing Podcast on The Shopify Trap: Why authors keep losing money as it is a great counterpoint to my positive endorsement of selling direct on Shopify!  Among other things, Thomas notes that a fixed monthly fee for a store doesn’t match how most authors make money from books which is more in spikes, the complexity and hassle eats time and can cost more money if you pay for help, and it can reduce sales on Amazon and weaken your ranking. Basically, if you haven’t figured out marketing direct to your store, it can hurt you.All true for some authors, for some genres, and for some people’s lifestyle.  But for authors who don’t want to be on the hamster wheel of the Amazon algorithm and who want more diversity and control in income, as well as the incredible creative benefits of what you can do selling direct, then I would say, consider your options in 2025, even if that is trying out a low-financial-goal Kickstarter campaign, or selling some print books at a local fair.  Interestingly, traditional publishers are also experimenting with direct sales. Kate Elton, the new CEO of Harper Collins notes in The Bookseller’s 2026 trend article, “we are seeing global success with responsive, reader-driven publishing, subscription boxes and TikTok Shop and – crucially – developing strategies that are founded on a comprehensive understanding of the reader.”  She also notes, “AI enables us to dramatically change the way we interact with and grow audiences. The opportunities are genuinely exciting – finding new ways to help readers discover books they will love, innovating in the ways we market and reach audiences, building new channels and adapting to new methods of consuming content.” (2) AI-powered search will start to shift elements of book discoverability From LinkedIn’s 2026 Big Ideas: “Generative engine optimization (GEO) is set to replace search engine optimization (SEO) as the way brands get discovered in the year ahead. As consumers turn to AI chatbots, agentic workflows and answer engines, appearing prominently in generative outputs will matter more than ranking in search engines.”  Google has been rolling out AI Mode with its AI Overviews and is beginning to push it within Google.com itself in some countries, which means the start of a fundamental change in how people discover content online. I first posted about GEO (Generative Engine Optimisation) and AEO (Answer Engine Optimisation) in 2023, and it's going to change how readers find books. For years, we've talked about the long tail of search. Now, with AI-powered search, that tail is getting even longer and more nuanced. AI can understand complex, conversational queries that traditional search engines struggled with. Someone might ask, “What's a good thriller set in a small town with a female protagonist who's a journalist investigating a cold case?” and get highly specific recommendations. This means your book metadata, your website content, and your online presence need to be more detailed and conversational. AI search engines understand context in ways that go far beyond simple keywords. The authors who win in this new landscape will be those who create rich, authentic content about their books and themselves, not just promotional copy. As economist Tyler Cowen has said, “Consider the AIs as part of your audience. Because they are already reading your words and listening to your voice.” We’re in the ‘organic’ traffic phase right now, where these AI engines are surfacing content for ‘free,’ but paid ads are inevitably on the way, and even rumoured to be coming this year to ChatGPT.  By the end of 2026, I expect some authors and publishers to be paying for AI traffic, rather than blocking and protesting them.  For now, I recommend checking that your author name/s and your books are surfaced when you search on ChatGPT.com  as well as Google.com AI Mode (powered by Gemini). You want to make sure your work comes up in some way. I found that Joanna Penn and J.F. Penn searches brought up my Shopify stores, my website, podcast, Instagram, LinkedIn, and even my Patreon page, but did not bring up links to Amazon. If you only have an author presence on Amazon, does it appear in AI search at all? Do you need to improve anything about what the AI search brings up?  Traditional publishers are also looking at this, with PublishersWeekly doing webinars on various aspects of AI in early 2026, including sessions on GEO and how book sales are changing, AI agents, and book marketing.  In a 2026 predictions article on The Bookseller, the CEO of Bloomsbury Publishing noted, “The boundaries of artificial intelligence will become clearer, enabling publishers to harness its benefits while seeking to safeguard the intellectual property rights of authors, illustrators and publishers.” “AI will be deeply embedded in our workflows, automating tasks such as metadata tagging, freeing teams to focus on creativity and strategy. Challenges will persist. Generative AI threatens traditional web traffic and ad revenue models, making metadata optimisation and SEO critical for visibility as we adjust to this new reality online.” (3) The start of Agentic Commerce AI researches what you want to buy and may even buy on your behalf. Plus, I predict that Amazon does a commerce deal with OpenAI for shopping within ChatGPT by the end of 2026. In September 2025, ChatGPT launched Instant Checkout and the Agentic Commerce Protocol, which will enable bots to buy on websites in the background if authorised by the human with the credit card. VISA is getting on board with this, so is PayPal, with no doubt more payment options to come. In the USA, ChatGPT Plus, Pro, and Free users can now buy directly from US Etsy sellers inside the chat interface, with over a million Shopify merchants coming soon. Shopify and OpenAI have also announced a partnership to bring commerce to ChatGPT. I am insanely excited about this as it could represent the first time we have been able to more easily find and surface books in a much more nuanced way than the 7 keywords and 3 categories we have relied on for so long! I’ve been using ChatGPT for at least the last year to find fiction and non-fiction books as I find the Amazon interface is ‘polluted’ by ads. I’ve discovered fascinating books from authors I’ve never heard of, most in very long tail areas. For example, Slashed Beauties by A. Rushby, recommended by ChatGPT as I am interested in medical anatomy and anatomical Venuses, and The Macabre by Kosoko Jackson, recommended as I like art history and the supernatural. I don’t think I would have found either of these within a nuanced discussion with ChatGPT. Even without these direct purchase integrations, ChatGPT now has Shopping Research, which I have found links directly to my Shopify store when I search for my books specifically.   Walmart has partnered with OpenAI to create AI-first shopping experiences, and you have to wonder what Amazon might be doing? In Nov 2025, Amazon signed a “strategic partnership” with OpenAI, and even though it's focused on the technical side of AI, those two companies in a room together might also be working on other plans … I’m calling it for 2026. I think Amazon will sign a commerce agreement with OpenAI sometime before the end of the year. This will enable at least recommendation and shopping links into Amazon stores (presumably using an OpenAI affiliate link), or perhaps even Instant Checkout with ChatGPT for Amazon. It will also enable a new marketing angle, especially if paid ads arrive in ChatGPT, perhaps even integrating with Amazon Ads in some way as part of any possible agreement, since ads are such a good revenue stream for Amazon anyway.  The line between discovery, engagement, and purchase is collapsing. Someone could be having a conversation with an AI about what to read next, and within that same conversation, purchase a bookwithout ever leaving the chat interface. This already happens within TikTok and social commerce clearly works for many authors. It’s possible that the next development for book discoverability and sales might be within AI chats.  This will likely stratify the already fragmented book eco-system even more. Some readers will continue to live only within the Amazon ecosystem and (maybe) use their Rufus chatbot to buy, and others will be much wider in their exploration of how to find and discover books (and other products and services). If you haven’t tried it yet, try ChatGPT.com Shopping Research for a book. You can do this on the free tier. Use the drop down in the main chat box and select Shopping Research. It doesn't have to be for your book. It can be any book or product, for example, our microwave died just before Christmas so I used it to find a new one. But do a really nuanced search with multiple requirements. Go far beyond what you would search for on Amazon. In the results, notice that (at the time of writing) it does not generally link to Amazon, but to independent sites and stores. As above, I think this will change by the end of 2026, as some kind of commerce deal with Amazon seems inevitable. (4) AI-assisted audiobook narration will go mainstream I've been talking about AI narration of audiobooks since 2019, and over the years, I’ve tried various different options. In 2025, the technology reached a level of emotional nuance that made it much easier to create satisfying fiction audio as well as non-fiction. It also super-charges accessibility, making audio available in more languages and more accents than ever before. Of course, human narration remains the gold standard, but the cost makes it prohibitive for many authors, and indeed many small traditional publishers, for all books. If it costs $2000 – $10,000 to create an audiobook, you have to sell a lot to make a profit, and the dominance of subscription models have made it harder to recoup the costs.  Famous narrators and voice artists who have an audience may still be worth investing in, as well as premium production, but require an even higher upfront cost and therefore higher sales and streams in return. AI voice/audio models are continuing to improve, and even as this goes out, there are rumours on TechCrunch that OpenAI’s new device, designed by Jony Ive who designed the iPhone, will be audio first and OpenAI are improving their voice models even more in preparation for that launch.  In 2026, I think AI-narrated audio will go mainstream with far-reaching adoption across publishing and the indie author world in many different languages and accents. This will mean a further stratification of audiobooks, with high quality, high production, high cost human narrated audio for a small percentage of books, and then mass market, affordable AI-narrated audio for the rest. AI-narrated audiobooks will make audio ubiquitous, and just as (almost) every print book has an ebook format, in 2026, they will also have an audio format. I straddle both these worlds, as I am still a human audiobook narrator for my own work. I human-narrated Successful Self-Publishing Fourth Edition (free audiobook) and The Buried and the Drowned, my short story collection.  I also use AI narration for some books. ElevenLabs remains my preferred service and in 2025, I used my J.F. Penn voice clone for Death Valley and also Blood Vintage, while using a male voice for Catacomb.  I clearly label my AI-narration in the sales description and also on the cover, which I think is important, although it is not always required by the various services.  You can distribute ElevenLabs narrated audiobooks on Spotify, Kobo Writing Life, YouTube, ElevenReader, and of course your own store if you use Shopify with Bookfunnel. There are many other services springing up all the time, so make sure you check the rights you have over the finished audio, as well as where you can sell and distribute the final files. If they are just using ElevenLabs models in the back-end, then why not just do that directly? (Most services will be using someone's model in the back-end, since most companies do not train their own models.) Of course, you can use Amazon’s own narration.  While Amazon originally launched Audible audiobooks with Virtual Voice (AVV) in November 2023, it was rolled out to more authors and territories in 2025. If your book is eligible, the option to create an audiobook will appear on your KDP dashboard. With just a few clicks, you can create an audiobook from a range of voices and accents, and publish it on Amazon and Audible. However, the files are not yours. They are exclusive to Amazon and you cannot use them on other platforms or sell them direct yourself. But they are also free, so of course, many authors, especially those in KU, will use this option. I have done some for my mum's sweet romance books as Penny Appleton and I will likely use them for my books in translation when the option becomes available. Traditional publishers are experimenting with AI-assisted audiobook narration as well.  MacMillan is selling digital audiobooks read by AI directly on their store. PublishersWeekly reports that PRH Audio “has experimented with artificial voice in specific instances, such as entrepreneur Ely Callaway’s posthumous memoir The Unconquerable Game,” when an “authorized voice replica” was created for the audiobook. The article also notes that PRH Audio “embrace artificial intelligence across business operations—my entire department [PRH Audio] is using AI for business applications.” And while indie authors can’t use AI voices on ACX right now, Audible have over 100 voices available to selected publishing partnerships, as reported by The Guardian with “two options for publishers wishing to make use of the technology: “Audible-managed” production, or “self-service” whereby publishers produce their own audiobooks with the help of Audible’s AI technology.” In 2026, it’s likely that more traditional publishers — as well as indie authors — will get their backlist into audio with AI narration. (5) AI-assisted translation will start to take off beyond the early adopters Over the years, I've done translation deals with traditional publishers in different languages (German, French, Spanish, Korean, Italian) for some fiction and non-fiction books. But of course, to get these kinds of deals, you have to be proactive about pitching, or work with an agent for foreign rights only, and those are few and far between! There are also lots of languages and territories worldwide, and most deals are for the bigger markets, leaving a LOT of blue water for books in translation, even if you have licensed some of the bigger markets. I did my first partially AI-translated books in 2019 when I used Deepl.com for the first draft and then worked with a German editor to do 3 non-fiction books in German. While the first draft was cheap, the editing was pretty expensive, so I stopped after only doing a couple. I have made the money back now, but it took years. In 2025, AI Translation began to take off with ScribeShadow, GlobeScribe.ai, and more recently, in November 2025, Kindle Translate boosting the number of translated books available. Kindle Translate is (currently) only available to US authors for English into Spanish and also German into English, but in 2026, this will likely roll out to more languages and more authors, making it easier than ever to produce translations for free. Of course, once again, the gold standard is human translation, or at least human-edited translations, but the cost is prohibitive even just for proof-reading, and if there is a cheap or even free option, like Kindle Translate, then of course, authors are going to try it. If the translation gets bad reviews, they can just un-publish. There are many anecdotal stories of indie success in 2025 with AI-translated genre fiction sales (in series) in under-served markets like Italian, French, and Spanish, as well as more mainstream adoption in German. I was around in the Kindle gold-rush days of 2009-2012 and the AI-translation energy right now feels like that. There are hardly any Kindle ebooks in many of these languages compared to how many there are in English, so inevitably, the rush is on to fill the void, especially in genres that are under-served by traditional publishers in those markets. Yes, some of these AI translated books will be ‘AI-slop,' but readers are not stupid. Those books will get bad reviews and thus will sink to the bottom of the store, never to be seen again.  The AI translation models are also improving rapidly, and Amazon's Kindle Translate may improve faster than most, for books specifically, since they will be able to get feedback in terms of page reads.  Amazon is also a major investor in Anthropic, which makes Claude.ai, widely considered the best quality for creative writing and translation, so it's likely that is used somewhere in the mix. Some traditional publishers are also experimenting with AI-assisted translation, with Harlequin France reportedly using AI translation and human proofreaders, as reported by the European Council of Literary Translators’ Associations in December 2025.  Academic publisher Taylor and Francis is also using AI for book translation, noting: “Following a program of rigorous testing, Taylor & Francis has announced plans to use AI translation tools to publish books that would otherwise be unavailable to English-language readers, bringing the latest knowledge to a vastly expanded readership.” “Until now, the time and resources required to translate books has meant that the majority remained accessible only to those who could read them in the original language. Books that were translated often only became available after a significant delay. Today, with the development of sophisticated AI translation tools, it has become possible to make these important texts available to a broad readership at speed, without compromising on accuracy.” (6) AI video becomes ubiquitous. ‘Live selling’ becomes the next trend in social sales. In 2025, short form AI-generated video became very high quality. OpenAI released Sora 2, and YouTube announced new Shorts creation tools with Veo 3, which you can also use directly within Gemini. There are tons of different AI video apps now, including those within the social media sites themselves. There is more video than ever and it’s much easier to create. I am not a fan of short form video! I don't make it and I don't consume it, but I do love making book trailers for my Kickstarter campaigns and for adding to my book pages and using on social media. I made a trailer for The Buried and the Drowned using Midjourney for images and then animation of those images, and Canva to put them together along with ElevenLabs to generate the music. But despite the AI tools getting so much easier to use, you still have to prompt them with exactly what you want. I can’t just upload my book and say, “Make a book trailer,” or “Make a short film.”  This may change with generative video ads, which are likely to become more common in 2026, as video turns specifically commercial.  Video ads may even be generated specifically for the user, with an audience of one, maybe even holding your book in their hands (using something like Cameos on Sora), in the same way that some AI-powered clothing stores do virtual try-ons.  This might also up-end the way we discover and buy things, as the AI for eCommerce and Amazon Sellers newsletter says about OpenAI’s Sora app, “OpenAI isn't just trying to build a TikTok competitor. They're building a complete reimagining of how we discover and buy things …” “The combination of ChatGPT's research capabilities and Sora's potential for emotional manipulation—I mean, “engagement”—could create something we've never seen before: an AI ecosystem that might eventually guide you through every type of purchase, from the most considered to the most impulsive.” In 2026, there will be A LOT more AI-generated video, but that also leads to the human trend of more live video.  While you can use an AI avatar that looks and sounds like you using tools like HeyGen or Synthesia, live video has all the imperfect human elements that make it stand-out, plus the scarcity element which leads to the purchase decision within a countdown period. Live video is nothing new in terms of brand building and content in general, but it seems that live events primarily for direct sales might be a thing in 2026. Kim Kardashian hosted Kimsmas Live in December 2025 with a 45 minute live shopping event with special guests, described as entertainment but designed to be a sales extravaganza.  Indie authors are doing a similar thing on TikTok with their books, so this is a trend to watch in 2026, especially if you feel that live selling might fit with your personality and author business goals. It’s certainly not for everyone, but I suspect it will suit a different kind of creator to those who prefer ‘no face’ video, or no video at all! On other aspects of the human side of social media, Adam Mosseri the CEO of Instagram put a post on Threads called Authenticity after Abundance. He said,  “Everything that made creators matter—the ability to be real, to connect, to have a voice that couldn’t be faked—is now suddenly accessible to anyone with the right tools.” “Deepfakes are getting better and better. AI is generating photographs and videos indistinguishable from captured media. The feeds are starting to fill up with synthetic everything. And in that world, here’s what I think happens.Creators matter more.”  It’s a long article so just to pick a few things from it:  “We like to talk about “AI slop,” but there is a lot of amazing AI content … we are going to start to see more and more realistic AI content.”  I’ve talked to my Patreon Community about this ‘tsunami of excellence’ as these tools are just getting better and better and the word ‘slop’ can also be applied to purely human output, too. If you think that AI content is ‘worse’ than wholly human content, in 2026, you are wrong. It is now very very good, especially in the hands of people who can drive the AI tools. Back to Adam’s post:  “Authenticity is fast becoming a scarce resource, …The creators who succeed will be those who figure out how to maintain their authenticity [even when it can be simulated] …” “The bar is going to shift from “can you create?” to “can you make something that only you could create?” He talks about how the personal content on Instagram now is: “unpolished; it’s blurry photos and shaky videos of people’s daily experiences … flattering imagery is cheap to produce and boring to consume. People want content that feels real… Savvy creators are going to lean into explicitly unproduced and unflattering images of themselves. In a world where everything can be perfected, imperfection becomes a signal. Rawness isn’t just aesthetic preference anymore—it’s proof. It’s defensive. A way of saying: this is real because it’s imperfect.” While I partially love this, and I really hope it’s true, as in I hope we don’t need to look good for the camera anymore I would also challenge Adam on this, because pretty much every woman I know on social media has been sent sexual messages, and/or told they are ugly and/or fat when posting anything unflattering. I’ve certainly had both even for the same content, but I don’t expect Adam has been the target for such posting! But I get his point.  He goes on:“Labeling content as authentic or AI-generated is only part of the solution though. We, as an industry, are going to need to surface much more context about not only the media on our platforms, but the accounts that are sharing it in order for people to be able to make informed decisions about what to believe. Where is the account? When was it created? What else have they posted?”  This is exactly what I’ve been saying for a while under my double down on being human focus. I use my Instagram @jfpennauthor as evidence of humanity, not as a sales channel. You can do both of course, but increasingly, you need to make sure your accounts at places have longevity and trust, even by the platforms themselves.  Adam finishes: “In a world of infinite abundance and infinite doubt, the creators who can maintain trust and signal authenticity—by being real, transparent, and consistent—will stand out.” For other marketing trends for 2026, I recommend publicist Kathleen Schmidt’s SubStack which is mostly focused on traditional publishing but still interesting for indies. In her 2026 article, she notes:   “We have reached a social media saturation point where going viral can be meaningless and should not be the goal; authenticity and creativity should. She also says, “In-person events are important again,” and, “Social media marketing takes a nosedive… we have reached a saturation point … What publishers must figure out is how to make their social media campaigns stand out. If they remain somewhat uninspired, the money spent on social ads won’t convert into book sales.” I think this is part of the rise of live selling as above, which can stand out above more ‘produced’ videos.  Kathleen also talks about AI usage. “AI can help lighten the burden of publicity and marketing.” “A lot of AI tools are coming to market to lessen the load: they can write pitches, create media lists for you, send pitches for you, and more. I know the industry is grappling with all things AI, but some of these tools are huge time savers and may help a book more than hurt it.” On that note …  (7) AI will create, run, and optimise ads without the need for human intervention Many authors will be very happy about this as marketing is often the bane of our author business lives! As I noted in my 2026 goals, I would love to outsource more marketing tasks to AI. I want an “AI book marketing assistant” where I can upload a book and specify a budget and say, ‘Go market this,’ then the AI will action the marketing, without me having to cobble together workflows between systems. Of course, it will present plans for me to approve but it will do the work itself on the various platforms and monitor and optimize things for me. I really hope 2026 is the year this becomes possible, because we are on the edge of it already in some areas.   Amazon Ads launched a new agentic AI tool in September 2025 that creates professional-quality ads.  I’ve also been working with Claude in Chrome browser to help me analyse my Amazon Ad data and suggest which keywords/products to turn off and what to put more budget into. I’ll do a Patreon video on that soon.  Meta announced it will enable AI ad creation by the end of 2026 for Facebook and Instagram. For authors who find ad creation overwhelming or time-consuming, this could be a game-changer. Of course, you will still need a budget! (8) 1000 True Fans becomes more important than ever Lots of authors and publishers are moaning about the difficulty of reaching readers in an era of ‘AI slop’ but there is no shortage of excellent content created by humans, or humans using AI tools.  As ever, our competition is less about other authors, or even authors using AI-assisted creation, we’re competing against everything else that jostles for people’s attention, and the volume of that is also growing exponentially.  I’ve never been a fan of rapid release, and have said for years that you can’t keep up with the pace of the machines. So play a different game.  As Kevin Kelly wrote in 2008, If you have 1000 true fans, (also known as super fans), “you can make a living — if you are content to make a living but not a fortune.” [Kevin Kelly was on this show in 2023 talking about Excellent Advice for Living.] Many authors and the publishing industry are stuck in the old model of aiming to sell huge volumes of books at a low profit margin to a massive number of readers, many of them releasing ever faster to try and keep the algorithms moving. But the maths can work for the smaller audience of more invested readers and fans. If you only make $2 profit on an ebook, you need to sell 500 ebooks to make $1000, and then do it again next month. Or you can have a small community like my patreon.com/thecreativepenn where people pay $2 (or more) a month, so even a small revenue per person results in a better outcome over the year, as it is consistent monthly income with no advertising.  But what if you could make $20 profit per book?  That is entirely possible if you’re producing high quality hardbacks on Kickstarter, or bundle deals of audiobooks, or whole series of ebooks. You would only need to sell to 50 people to make $1000. What about $100 profit per sale, which you can do with a small course or live event?  You only need 10 people to make $1000, and this in-person focus also amplifies trust and fosters human connection.  I’ve found the intimacy of my live Patreon Office Hours and also my webinars have been rewarding personally, but also financially, and are far more memorable — and potentially transformative — than a pre-recorded video or even another book. From the LinkedIn 2026 Big Ideas article: “In an AI-optimized world, intentional human connection will become the ultimate luxury.”  The 1000 True Fans model is about serving a smaller, more personal audience with higher value products (and maybe services if that’s your thing). As ever, its about niche and where you fit in the long long long long long tail. It’s also about trust. Because there is definitely a shortage of that in so many areas, and as Adam Mosseri of Instagram has said, trust will be increasingly important.  Trust takes time to build, but if you focus on serving your audience consistently, and delivering a high quality, and being authentic, this emerges as part of being human. In an echo of what happened when online commerce first took off, we are back to talking about trust. Back in 2010, I read Trust Agents: by Julien Smith and Chris Brogan, which clearly needs a comeback. There was a 10th anniversary edition published in 2020, so that’s worth a read/listen.  Chris Brogan was also on this show in 2017 when we talked about finding and serving your niche for the long term. That interview is still relevant, here’s a quick excerpt, where I have (lightly edited) his response to my question on this topic back in 2017: Jo: The principle of know, like, and trust, why is that still important or perhaps even more important these days? Chris: There are a few things that at play there, Joanna. One is that the same tools that make it so easy for any of us to start and run a business also allow certain elements to decide whether or not they want to do something dubious. And with all new technologies that come, you know, there's nothing unique about these new technologies. In the 1800s, anyone could put anything in a bottle and sell it to you and say, this is gonna cure everything. Cancer — gone. And the bottle could have nothing in. You know, it could be Kool-Aid. And so, the idea of trying to understand what's behind the business though, one beautiful thing that's come is that we can see in much more dimensions who we're dealing with. We can understand better who's the face behind the brand.  I really want people to try their best to be a lot clearer on what they stand for or what they say. And I don't really mean a tagline. I mean, humans don't really talk like that. They don't throw some sentence out as often as they can that you remember them for that phrase.  But I would say that, we have so many media available to us — the plural of mediums — where we can be more of ourselves. And I think that there's a great opportunity to share the ‘you’ behind the scenes, and some people get immediately terrified about this, ‘Ah, the last thing I want is for people to know more about me,’ but I think we have such an opportunity.  We have such an opportunity to voice our thoughts on something, to talk about the story that goes behind the product. We were all raised on overly produced material, but I think we don't want that anymore. We really want clarity, brevity, simplicity. We want the ability for what we feel is connection and then access.  And so I think it's vital that we connect and show people our accessibility, not so that they can pester us with strange questions, but more so that you can say, this person stands with their product and their service and this person believes these things, and I feel something when I hear them and I wanna be part of that.” That’s from Chris Brogan’s interview here in 2017, and he is still blogging and speaking at writing at ChrisBrogan.com and I’m going to re-listen to the audiobook of Trust Agents again myself as I think it’s more relevant than ever.  The original quote comes from Bob Burg in his 1994 book, Endless Referrals, “All things being equal, people will do business with, and refer business to, those people they know, like and trust.” That still applies, and absolutely fits with the 1000 True Fans model of aiming to serve a smaller audience. As Kevin Kelly says in 1000 True Fans, “Instead of trying to reach the narrow and unlikely peaks of platinum bestseller hits, blockbusters, and celebrity status, you can aim for direct connection with a thousand true fans.” “On your way, no matter how many fans you actually succeed in gaining, you’ll be surrounded not by faddish infatuation, but by genuine and true appreciation. It’s a much saner destiny to hope for. And you are much more likely to actually arrive there.” In 2026, I hope that more authors (including me!) let go of ego goals and vanity metrics like ranking, gross sales (income before you take away costs), subscribers, followers, and likes, and consider important business numbers like profit (which is the money you have after costs like marketing are taken out), as well as number of true fans — and also lifestyle elements like number of weekends off, or days spent enjoying life and not just working!  OK, that’s my list of trends and predictions for 2026. Let me know what you think in the comments. Do you agree? Am I wrong? What have I missed? The post 2026 Trends And Predictions For Indie Authors And The Book Publishing Industry with Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

I go through my creative and author business goals for 2026, from leaning into the transformation economy, to what books I intend to write, the podcast, Patreon, and more. The post My 2026 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

I reflect on my 2025 goals, what I achieved, what I didn't, and what surprises came along, as well as a round-up of some of the biggest impactful news items for indie authors in 2025. The post Review Of My 2025 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you be more relaxed about your writing process? What are some specific ways to take the pressure off your art and help you enjoy the creative journey? With Joanna Penn and Mark Leslie Lefebvre. The post The Relaxed Author Writing Tips With Joanna Penn and Mark Leslie Lefebvre first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What does it really take to build a multi-six-figure author business with no advertising? Is running your own warehouse really necessary for direct sales success — or is there a simpler path using print-on-demand that works just as well? In this conversation, Sacha Black and I compare our very different approaches to selling direct, from print on demand to pallets of books, and explore why the right model depends entirely on who you are and what your goals are for your author business. The post Two Different Approaches To Selling Books Direct With Sacha Black And Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Why do some romance authors build decades-long careers while others vanish after one breakout book? What really separates a throwaway pen name and rapid release strategy from a legacy brand and a body of work you’re proud of? How can you diversify with trad, indie, non-fiction, and Kickstarter without burning out—or selling out your creative freedom? With Jennifer Probst The post Writing Free: Romance Author Jennifer Probst On A Long-Term Author Career first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you write science-based fiction without info-dumping your research? How can you use AI tools in a creative way, while still focusing on a human-first approach? Why is adapting to the fast pace of change so difficult and how can we make the most of this time? Jamie Metzl talks about Superconvergence and more. The post Writing The Future, And Being More Human In An Age of AI With Jamie Metzl first appeared on The Creative Penn.

In early November 2025, I attended and spoke at Author Nation in Las Vegas. It was a fantastic conference for authors at all levels, and in this episode, I share my lessons learned and tips from reflecting on the event. The post Lessons Learned From Author Nation 2025 With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Why do so many memoir manuscripts fail to engage readers, even when the writer has lived through extraordinary experiences? What's the hidden code that separates a chronological account of events from a compelling memoir that readers can't put down? How do you know when you're ready to write about trauma, and where's the ethical line between truth and storytelling? With Wendy Dale The post Why Structure Matters More Than You Think. Writing Memoir With Wendy Dale first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What happens when your creative dreams collide with the demands of caregiving? How do you keep writing when you're caring for someone full-time? Can you still be a creative person when traditional productivity advice simply doesn't work? With Donn King. The post Creating While Caring With Donn King first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Why does the publishing industry feel more chaotic than ever, and what can writers do about it? How do you know if you're truly burned out or just creatively empty? When should successful authors start saying no instead of yes to every opportunity? Becca Syme shares her hard-won wisdom about navigating burnout, embracing unpredictability, and knowing what to quit (and what not to quit) in your writing career. The post Loki Is In Charge. How Authors Can Thrive In A Time Of Transition With Becca Syme first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can authors write about climate change without preaching? What happens when your publisher goes under just before your book launch? How do theatre skills translate to better dialogue, readings, and author events? With author and theater director Laura Baggaley. In the intro, Indie presses are in existential crisis [The Bookseller]; what to do when […] The post Performance Tips For Authors, And Writing Climate Fiction With Laura Baggaley first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do you stand out as an author when thousands of books are published every day? What’s the difference between having a logo and having a real brand that sells books? Is it possible to maintain your authentic voice while appealing to genre readers who seem more loyal to categories than authors? With Steve Brock […] The post Brand Something Beautiful: How Authors Can Stand Out In A Crowded Market with Steve Brock first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do you know when it’s time to wrap up one phase of your life and move on to the next? What’s the secret to staying connected as a writer when you’re working alone? And if you have multiple passions and endless ideas, how do you actually finish things instead of constantly starting new projects? […] The post How to Pivot Careers, Co-Write Books, And Stay Connected As A Remote Creative With Pilar Orti first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Have you optimized the seven essential elements of your Amazon book page before you even consider marketing? Are you making the most of A+ content, and advertising with Amazon? Amazon Ads expert Geoff Affleck gives his tips. In the intro, potential TikTok US changes [BBC]; Special editions [Written Word Media]; Self-Publishing with Dale Kickstarter books; […] The post Amazon Advertising For Books With Geoff Affleck first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Are you truly procrastinating, or are you protecting yourself from uncomfortable emotions? What if the real reason you’re not finishing your book has nothing to do with laziness or lack of motivation? Colleen Story explores the types of procrastination that keep writers stuck and how you can move past them into success. In the intro, […] The post Overcoming Procrastination With Colleen M. Story first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the challenges of writing and publishing books for children? How can you publish high-quality books and still make a profit? How can you market books to children effectively in a scalable manner? Darcy Pattison gives her tips. In the intro, Novel Writing November; Business models and ethics for authors [Self-Publishing with ALLi]; AI-Assisted […] The post Writing, Self-Publishing And Marketing Books For Children With Darcy Pattison first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What if the key to finding your authentic voice as a writer lies in exploring someone else’s fictional world first? How can multi-passionate creators manage multiple brands without losing their sanity? KimBoo York reveals how fanfiction can be a powerful training ground for original fiction, and why being your “weird self” is more valuable than […] The post Writing Fan Fiction, And Multi-Passionate Creativity With KimBoo York first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do you know when an idea should become a poem or a short story instead of a longer work? How can indie authors publish and market poetry and short fiction in today’s market? Joanna Penn and Orna Ross explore the creative processes, and the business behind writing short-form work, and discuss why being authentically […] The post Writing And Publishing Short Stories And Poetry With J.F. Penn And Orna Ross first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What if you could turn a monthly writing challenge into a successful book collaboration—all while recording the entire creative process as a podcast? What if hand-selling locally sells more books than online marketing? Clay Vermulm talks about his creative and business processes. In the intro, Spotify’s new ‘Follow Along’ Feature for some audiobooks [Publishing Perspectives]; […] The post Writing Short Stories, Publishing Collaboration, And Podcasting, With Clay Vermulm first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What happens when you fall in love with a book that deserves a wider audience but has never been translated into English? How do you navigate international copyright law, multiple publishers, and estate permissions when you have no translation experience? Dani James shares her journey from discovering a powerful Flemish memoir in her childhood home […] The post The Art And Business Of Literary Translation With Dani James first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What marketing principles remain true regardless of the tools you use? What are the different ways you can market your book, whatever your genre? In this episode, I share two chapters from my audiobook, Successful Self-Publishing, Fourth Edition. In the intro, Pricing strategies on The Biz Book Broadcast; What to do Three Years Before your […] The post Book Marketing Tips For Fiction And Non-Fiction Authors With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Are you curious about the lives of your ancestors? What secrets might be hiding in your family tree, and where would you even begin to look for them? How do you turn dusty records and vague family stories into a compelling book for others to read? T.L. Whalan shares how she researched and wrote a […] The post Researching And Writing Family History Or Genealogy With TL Whalan first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do you turn a big-budget TV show idea into an audio drama you can produce yourself? What does it take to create a 10-hour, 30-actor historical drama? And how can guerrilla marketing in airport bookstores help find your audience? Alison Haselden shares her experience of writing and directing Wicked Dames. In the intro, David […] The post Writing And Directing Audio Drama And The Constant Creator Mindset With Alison Haselden first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Are you feeling overwhelmed by the pressure to constantly release new books and battle algorithms? Do you wonder if there’s a more sustainable, low-stress path to a successful author career? Is it possible to focus on art, build a loyal fanbase, and escape the publishing rat race? In this episode, Johnny B. Truant discusses the […] The post The Artisan Author With Johnny B Truant first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Are you struggling to get reviews for your book? Wondering how to navigate the different types of reviews, from customer feedback to professional blurbs? Joe Walters from IndependentBookReview.com gives his tips. In the intro, how important is ‘truth’ in memoir? The Observer on Raynor Winn’s The Salt Path; Raynor’s statement; Memoir controversies [The Guardian]; Tips […] The post How To Get More Book Reviews With Joe Walters first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Have you ever dreamed of turning a passion for storytelling into a profitable, long-term career? How do you build multiple successful author brands without burning out? What marketing strategies actually work in today’s fast-changing industry? Ines Johnson shares her journey and the secrets to her success. In the intro, 5 phases of an author business […] The post Crafting Stories, Finding Readers And Selling Direct With Ines Johnson first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How is the rise of AI changing the world of audiobooks for authors and narrators? Can a synthetic voice ever capture the nuance of human performance, and what does it mean to write for the ear, not just the eye? Jules Horne talks about the seismic shifts in the audiobook industry and how you can […] The post Writing For Audio First With Jules Horne first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Is the high cost of audiobook production holding you back? What if you could create a high-quality audiobook for a fraction of the traditional cost? In this conversation, Simon Patrick explores the world of AI narration with ElevenLabs, discussing how you can gain complete creative control, and even license your own voice clone for a new stream of income. This episode is supported by my patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Simon Patrick founded Ten Times Better Books to support his daughter, Abby Patrick, as one of ElevenLabs' first users and beta testers. He has produced several of their most popular AI voices. He now develops courses and AI audiobook solutions for independent authors at Novel Productions. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes Costs vs benefits of human vs AI narration Features of ElevenLabs — realistic and expressive voices, creative control, ownership of final audio files for wide distribution to platforms like Spotify. Practical tips for AI narration ElevenLabs v3 and emotion tags Creating and monetizing a voice clone Publishing on ElevenReader You can find Simon at Novel.Productions or 10xb.com. Transcript of the interview Joanna: Simon Patrick founded Ten Times Better Books to support his daughter, Abby Patrick, as one of ElevenLabs' first users and beta testers. He has produced several of their most popular AI voices. He now develops courses and AI audiobook solutions for independent authors at Novel Productions. Welcome to the show, Simon. Simon: Thank you, Joanna. It's such a joy to be speaking with you. Your podcast and books were foundational to my daughter, Abby, becoming an author and me learning to be her publisher and all that's happened since. I love your Patreon @thecreativepenn. It's the best money I spend every month, frankly. It's just a great community to be part of, so it's such a joy to be sharing some of what I've learned. Joanna: Oh, thank you so much. Behind the scenes on the Patreon, Simon has done a video demo of ElevenLabs. Today, obviously, we're doing audio-only. So first up— Tell us a bit more about your background and why you decided to get into AI-narrated audiobooks. Simon: Okay. Well, I've got 25 years of experience in marketing and design. I still am halftime head of communications for an international charity, but we've always had our own businesses too. My wife and I ran a small home education tuition publishing business. We've home-educated our three kids, which brings me to Abby, my daughter who brought me into your world of book publishing. She was going to college, studying early years education, and was just bored out of her mind. She asked if she could drop out of college to be a writer instead. She'd been writing a book since she was 15. To the astonishment of her friends and some of ours too, we said yes. Let me add, it was responsible parenting. We made her finish the term, stick it out, and do the work experience. By Christmas 2019, she'd left to pursue finishing her book based on the deal that — If she learned to write, I would learn to publish for her. Joanna: Wow! Simon: So I attended the first Self Publishing Show in that crazy spring of 2020. I think you were there too, just a few days before the pandemic shut us all down. I've listened to hundreds of your podcasts, read your books, done some of the Self-Publishing Formula courses, and learned to be Abby's publisher. Since then, I have used those skills and connected with a few other authors, so I probably publish a book or two a month, something like that. Audio has always been the stumbling block. I love audiobooks. As a family, we must consume hundreds of hours a month of them. There are incredible narrators like Ray Porter and Daniel Rigby, who self-narrates his own Audible exclusives, and my absolute favourite, a guy called Jeff Hayes, who narrates incredibly. They're amazing talents, and I don't think AI is going to touch them because they bring so much humanity to the performance. But to ordinary authors and publishers, those narrators are inaccessible. I don't even want to think about what they cost. For Abby, who is still just starting out, any professional narration would cost her three to four thousand dollars for her books. The math just doesn't work. While there are options like a royalty split with ACX, Audible's publishing platform, I struggle with that. Firstly, you're tied in exclusively to Audible for seven years, and we're big fans of going wide. Secondly, you're only getting 20% of the royalties when it's being split. I just don't think for us, they're ever going to make that money back. So all of that is what led me in early 2023 to be searching for AI audio options. ChatGPT was going crazy, you were demoing all of that at the time, and I figured there must be some kind of AI audio option that would let me take control of the process and hopefully produce good audiobooks way more cheaply than current options. That's when I discovered ElevenLabs. Joanna: There's lots to unpack there. First of all, as you mentioned, there are some incredible human narrators, and we want to acknowledge them. I'm also a human narrator myself. For most authors, especially indie authors or new authors, it's not a choice between human or AI; it's AI or nothing because they can't afford the fees. As you said, a lot of the time you don't know if you're going to make the money back. So I think that's really important to acknowledge. There are lots of AI narration options now. It is hard for authors to decide which platform to use. So what is ElevenLabs, and why do you think it's the best option for quality and also for publishing reach? You mentioned ACX, and there's obviously AVV, the Audible Virtual Voice. Most people might think, “Well, maybe I should just do that.” Give us an overview on why you made that decision to go with ElevenLabs. Simon: Absolutely. ElevenLabs continues to be the most realistic AI platform out there. They kicked off about two and a half years ago. I was one of their first users, and even back then, they were so much better than everything else. There were lots of programmers wanting to do clever things with APIs and websites, but I just wanted to make audiobooks with these things. They were actually listening, which is remarkable in the publishing industry sometimes. About a year and a half ago, and for reference, we're in June 2025 right now, they launched ElevenLabs Studio. It can take a whole book, like the ePub that I've worked on for Abby or a Word document, you can drop it in and have it convert it chapter by chapter, paragraph by paragraph into a great-sounding audiobook. The high quality and natural-sounding elements of it are why I was first attracted to them. The expressiveness is just another step above. The comparison with Amazon's Virtual Voice is that it's so much more pleasant to listen to, but it doesn't just sound better — What I love about it is the complete creative control it gives me. There are thousands of voices I can pick from, a whole library of voices. They're real people, people like me, actually, who have recorded their voice and then licensed it to ElevenLabs and get paid a small amount. Then when it's used, there's actually compensation to those who've licensed their voices to it. It’s not like the large language models like ChatGPT where the whole universe seems to have been scraped and compiled into this thing. They're being super diligent about making sure it's all kosher, that it's real people's voices and they're getting compensated. Beyond that, the tools they're building give you control. They're incredibly open to listening to feedback, which has been brilliant. I'm talking to the programmers regularly. They've got a great Discord where they're asking for feedback. With the tools, I can spend time perfecting the book. I can get the dialogue just the way I want it. I can create a duet audiobook with a male narrator for male POVs and a female for female POVs. I can even do multi-cast and assign different voices to each character in the book. Probably most importantly, I can download the whole thing as WAV files or MP3s. The big difference with something like Amazon Virtual Voice is that I own what I've created with ElevenLabs. It's a commercial license, so I can put them into BookFunnel's audio delivery service, I can put them on my website, you can add them to a Kickstarter, stick them on YouTube, or just give them away for free if I wanted to. In terms of publishing reach, they're doing a lot. We were kind of stuck with either self-publishing, YouTube, or Kobo, who are superstars and super open. But one of the game changers that's happened in the last few months is you can now add them to Spotify, which has come in as the big disruptor for Audible and Amazon. You've done that recently with the book that we produced together. How's that been? Joanna: Death Valley, which has been on the feed, you can listen to a couple of chapters, and that's using my voice clone. We'll come back to the voice clone in a minute. As you mentioned, I think it's mainly the ownership of the files and the Spotify distribution. At the moment, it really is only Google's auto-narration and ElevenLabs that you can use legitimately on Spotify through Findaway Voices. You cannot use the AVV files anywhere else. So I think that's incredibly important because, of course— We can talk forever about how to make audio, but it's also about selling audio, isn't it? Simon: And for anyone who's dealt with KDP or Audible customer services, I probably don't have to say what the experience was like. So another reason I love ElevenLabs is their support has been brilliant. There's this Discord I mentioned where there are dozens of super helpful and patient people giving input. Their customer service team replies quickly, it's personal, they're helpful, and they've got amazing documentation. Stepping back a little bit, the fact that we can create well-narrated audiobooks for a hundred to two hundred dollars plus a few days of learning and production on each one is just incredible. I took my two boys to a local Comic-Con recently, and there was a self-published author there with a single beautiful book. He'd clearly poured his heart and money into this thing. There were beautiful cover bookmarks and giveaways, and then I saw he had an audiobook. We got talking about it. He'd got it professionally narrated, and he opened up and said it cost £7,000. I honestly wanted to cry. I genuinely get emotional about it even now. I want us as authors and publishers to put our time, energy, and money into creating incredible stories and getting our words out into the world and just make everything around that as simple as possible, using tech where we can. Joanna: I just want to comment on this because one of the reasons we timestamp these episodes is because I'll have people email me and say, “Oh, but you said this,” and I'm like, “Yeah, but when did I say that?” For example, in 2014 when I started audiobook publishing on ACX, they were the only thing out there, and they were the bee's knees. We had a much higher royalty rate, there were very few audiobooks around, and you could make that money back. The amount of money you mentioned, you could make back quite quickly. Now, I know some people will be saying, “Oh, but I make that money back.” And I'm like, “Well, yeah, if you are an established author, absolutely.” If you have a popular series, if you know that you already make that kind of money from audiobooks, then you can. We are in a different era in 2025. There's a lot more audio, and of course, AI is a double-edged sword. There is going to be more audio than ever before. The question is, how do we make that money back? If we lower the costs, then we also lower the amount of revenue we need to make to offset that. Simon: And you know, it's going to move on fast, but now is an extraordinary time. I love good audiobooks, and the fact that AI can help me make those now is very exciting to me. Joanna: It's super fun. You and I both have a reasonably technical background, so we can use these tools. To be fair, you said wonderful documentation. I am terrible at reading documentation. I just jump in and give it a go. There are people who don't know anything about AI audio. How does it work? Can you give a few key elements and tips for authors if they want to use ElevenLabs for AI narration? Simon: Yeah, I've got five tips for you. First, go in and check it out. There is a creator package that you can get for half price for the first month. I would say for exploration, it is worth getting for $11 just to have a little bit of a play with it. Getting familiar with the platform can be a little intimidating because it does lots of different things, like voice changing, sound effects, and dubbing video. We are really only interested in the Studio tool. As soon as you go into that Studio tool, it will start to feel familiar. You can click “Create an audiobook,” drop your ePub in there, and basically instantly see how this thing works, breaking it into chapters, applying a voice, and clicking play. The warning though is this creator package, at $22 a month, is not good enough to create professional audiobooks. This is my first tip: you need the Pro package, which is $99 a month, because that is what outputs 192 kilobits per second. That's the technical specification that you need to go on BookFunnel or Spotify. You only get that by using the $99 a month package. You get about 10 hours of audio creation in that, so for a lot of people, that could make a book. The hours roll over, so you can either wait for month two and have enough hours to do it. As soon as you're done with your book, you can downgrade to a $5 a month package, so don't worry, it's not trapping you in there. Just know that you need the $99 a month Pro package to produce your audiobooks. My second tip is to —  Really spend time choosing or making your voice. You had an experience with this, Joanna, where you try out a voice, commit to it, and then realize two or three chapters in that you don't like it. I've had that experience too. So use that first month on the creator package to really play with voices. Generate your first chapter in five or six different voices. Really get familiar and comfortable with a voice that you want to use so that you're not wasting time and credits when you get into producing something. Third, don't get overwhelmed; have fun with it. It's amazing hearing your book come to life in audio. I feel if you give it an hour, the Studio tool is pretty intuitive. If you have the level of tech ability to do something like typesetting in Atticus or Vellum or use Scrivener, you can absolutely master using Studio. My fourth tip, and a warning, is that it still takes time. This isn't some one-button wonder. Your novella, Death Valley, was six and a half hours long. That took 18 hours of editing. Joanna: And this is where people get confused because with AVV, the Audible Virtual Voice, there is no control. You literally do click one button and it goes live. There's almost no point in proof-listening to it because you can't actually change it. With Studio, you have such fine control that you can add pauses, a breath in the middle of a sentence, or change the emphasis. You kind of direct it with Studio, don't you? Simon: That's the word I use, yes. Directing. It's like you're directing an audiobook. If you are doing non-fiction, it is borderline a one-click wonder. It will deliver it amazingly, and you need to listen to it once, and you're good to go. If you've spent a year or two writing a book, think about the effort we put into making it look good in the typesetting and the covers. A day or two to listen to it, refine it, and make it represent your vision is not time wasted. I'm only interested in high-quality audiobooks that do the story justice. I want to be proud of it. I want Abby to be proud of it. I highly encourage people, particularly fiction writers, to be prepared to spend two or three days working on the book. It is so rewarding to get something that comes out the other end that you are proud of. Joanna: And just on the proofing, if you work with a human narrator, you will be doing proofing. You listen to the audio, find the timestamp, explain what you want changed, and send it back to the human to rerecord. The process is probably pretty similar in terms of the amount of time taken, but you can do it yourself, and there are areas that help. For example, if there's a character name, you can fix that once for the whole audio, can't you? Simon: Correct. It's a pronunciation dictionary for any words. It really struggled with “croissant.” It does little random things. I think our favorite was when it pronounced “desert” as “dessert.” Joanna: It just would not stop wanting some dessert! What are some other tips? Simon: My fifth and final tip right now, and this is only pertinent to those listening as this is broadcast, is if you are wanting to do an audiobook for your fiction book, you should wait. If you're doing non-fiction, the existing models are amazing. But last week, their Version 3 model was released, and it is a game-changer. The initial reactions are, “I can never go back to Version 2.” Version 3, from an expression and liveliness perspective, but also from a control and direction perspective, is changing the game. It wasn't even supposed to come out for a couple of months, so they're moving forward with this fast. The real reason to wait is it's got one massive feature upgrade that I've been waiting for for at least a year: You can add emotion tags. Previously, if we wanted someone to whisper, sometimes it would figure it out from the text. Other times, we would literally be adding, “he whispered,” “she shouted,” “he said excitedly.” We were kind of gaming the system. Now, we can add tags in square brackets to the text like [whispers], [shouts], [says thoughtfully], [says in a British accent]. There is this whole world of things it can do that allows us to work much more effectively as a director, particularly for dialogue and emphasis. There is even a button that will read the text and put in suggested tags throughout the book. The AI is reading those instructions but not reading them out loud. So it is the big breakthrough in terms of us creating audiobooks that sound exactly how we want them to. Joanna: That is really good. I'm looking forward to that as well. Let's wind it back for people. You mentioned non-fiction quite quickly. For non-fiction, what do I do about the table of contents, URLs, or images in my text? Simon: When you upload the ePub, you can just delete those bits. I feel like people forget that you have control. You can completely change the front matter, the back matter, and the bits around it to be something that's going to work most effectively when it's delivered on the platforms you want. And you can create different versions. Joanna: And I think it's really important for people to remember with audiobooks that it is an adaptation, however you're doing it. It is a different product. With Death Valley, for example, I would say to you, “Oh, well, let's just rewrite that sentence,” because it would be easier for me to rewrite it and it will keep the same meaning. Simon: Exactly. You have that luxury as the author, which is why people doing it themselves is wonderful. When producing your book for you, I can't take those liberties. Joanna: So let's come to the voice clone idea because, of course, you mentioned earlier that you've licensed your voice. We used my voice clone for Death Valley, and I am still on the fence as to whether or not to license that publicly. What are some tips for people who want to license their voice or do a voice clone? Simon: For me, it's been amazing getting this bonus income that I totally didn't expect. For Abby, it's been life-changing. She is the most popular English British female voice. She's called Amelia on ElevenLabs. She's earning enough from her voice that she could quit a toxic job and go full-time writing. It’s extraordinary. So, in terms of tips, if you are recording your own voice, whether you are going to use it yourself or think about sharing it with others, first of all, the quality of the recording is essential. You want to be using a good microphone in a quiet place. There are lots of tools to clean it up, but nothing is going to compare to something that's recorded well. When you are delivering your voice, the delivery needs to be varied but consistent. I generally get authors to read their own book. You want to give variations in terms of tone and volume, from whispering through to high energy, as though you are reading to an engaged audience. You do not want to put on character voices. That's really important. The AI will pick up on the variations in your delivery, but it gets very confused if you've done character voices because it doesn't know how those fit in with how you speak. A cheat code for improving the quality if you don't have a really good mic or a quiet area is Adobe Podcast. It's a free service with an enhanced speech function. You can put your recording in there and massively improve how it sounds. The tip is to not put it out at a 100% treatment; you want kind of 70% to 90% of their enhanced speech applied, or else it sounds too obviously affected by AI. Joanna: And right now, my J.F. Penn voice is my voice, and I'm the only one who can use it. There's another step if you want to license it and put it in the voice market, isn't there? Simon: Yes, and the first challenge of that is genuinely a moral evaluation. If you want to monetize your voice, you have to decide if you are prepared for your voice to be used to say almost anything. ElevenLabs has controls to stop things like hate speech or sexual content, but to really monetize it, you have to switch off a feature called “live moderation,” which prevents things like swearing. As soon as you turn that live moderation on, your voice becomes unavailable for most uses that would make money, like audiobooks or conversational AI. The second option to consider is the notice period. You can choose to have the right to instantly withdraw your voice or set a notice period of up to two years. They pay more if you're prepared to have a longer minimum period. As a producer, I am not going to start using someone's voice for an audiobook series if I might not have it to use in three months' time. I instantly filter for anything less than a year's notice period and generally only pick two years. If you want to monetize your voice, you have to turn live moderation off and give a two-year notice period, in my opinion. A final tip would be to be safe. Do not publicly share your voice's name and connect it with you as a person. Forget about voice recognition for telephone banking, for example. Also, do your research. See what voices are most popular, what descriptions work best, and think about the sample you provide. Joanna: As we head towards a close, we do need to quickly come back to —  ElevenReader. It's an emerging place to publish audiobooks, too. You can also upload e-books, and then listeners can choose the voice. Back in 2020, I wrote in my book on AI that at some point there will be an app where listeners can choose whatever voice they want to listen to my book in, and this is it. Simon: It's super exciting. It's an app you'll find on your iPhone or Android store. It's the consumer-facing side of ElevenLabs. You can drop in pretty much any content, like PDFs, e-books, and webpages, and it turns any text into speech. Right from the beginning, it's also offered books for direct sale. Joanna: We have to mention that Melania Trump has used a voice clone of her quite distinctive voice to do her memoir, also called Melania. She has basically said this is the future of publishing. “Here's my AI voice clone, and it's on ElevenReader.” I thought that was a tipping point for me because it means that it's going mainstream. Simon: So you can see it like Audible or Spotify, except you can choose what voice you want to narrate it. For authors, it's an amazingly simple way to offer an audiobook. You don't even have to go through the studio production process. You can just sign up to ElevenReader publishing and upload your book. Boom, they'll review it and publish it. Joanna: I would say to people, you must — Read the terms and conditions of any site that you ever upload anything to. Also, if your e-book is in Kindle Unlimited and exclusive to Amazon, you can't upload that e-book to ElevenReader because it's exclusive. Simon: And we have just taken Abby's books out of Kindle Unlimited so we can put them in ElevenReader this week. Joanna: Before we go, you have courses coming and you also offer services to authors. Tell us about those and where people can find you online. Simon: Wonderful, thank you, Joanna. First, I'd be a very neglectful father if I didn't mention that Abby's latest book, Stolen Legacy, went live yesterday. You can find Abby Hope Patrick and her Deadly Ever After series on Amazon and, very soon, ElevenReader. You can find my voice on ElevenReader; I'm “Christopher” on there. The courses are something new. We've started a new website called Novel Productions. The first course will be “AI Audio for Authors” and will cover everything people need to know to get themselves not just onto ElevenLabs, but all platforms. It's also going to have training on how to record your own voice clones and monetize them if you want to. I was about to publish it, and then Version 3 of ElevenLabs came out, so I don't want to train anyone on anything that's not going to be the best in a couple of months. So right now, if you go to Novel.Productions, there will be a waiting list that you can sign up to. Regarding services, you were my first beta tester outside the books that I publish myself. We're still weighing up how affordable we can make it. I'd rather teach people first, and if they don't want to then do it themselves, we'll see how we can help. I'm beta testing that with authors, so you can email me at simon@novel.productions. Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for your time, Simon. That was great. Simon: Thank you, Joanna. It has been such a pleasure.The post Producing AI-Narrated Audiobooks Using ElevenLabs With Simon Patrick first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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What can prose writers learn from poets about language, line breaks, and punctuation? How can we help people engage with our work in different ways? Abi Pollokoff talks about her advice from poetry. In the intro, how to reframe success as a writer [Ink in Your Veins]; How I Write Podcast with Dean Koontz; Direct […] The post Language, Line Breaks, And Punctuation. Poetry With Abi Pollokoff first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you explore the edges of your creativity to find your next becoming? How can you turn the evolution of your life into art? Pia Leichter talks about her creative courage, different ways to rest, and intuitive book marketing in this interview. In the intro, Lessons from Six Years Writing Full-time [Sacha Black]; Reflections […] The post Make Life Your Biggest Art Project: Pia Leichter On Writing, Creative Courage, And Changing Your Narrative first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you implement ‘See, Do, Repeat’ in your writing and author business? How can you embrace optimism as a creative entrepreneur and move past fear of judgment to publish your book? Dr Rebecca White shares her journey and tips. In the intro, Short form audio opportunities and tips [Self Publishing Advice]; Wiley’s guidelines for […] The post See, Do, Repeat: The Practice of Creative Entrepreneurship With Dr Rebecca White first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you shift your writing and publishing process to focus on YouTube and podcasting as a primary audiobook focus? How can you use AI tools to help you create, publish, and translate your books? Derek Slaton goes into his indie author process. Inspired by Derek, you can now find my audiobooks on YouTube: Books […] The post Expanding Audiobook Revenue Through YouTube And Podcasting With Derek Slaton first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the different ways you can distribute and monetise your ebooks and audiobooks through Kobo Writing Life? How can you market them more effectively and reach more readers? With Tara Cremin. In the intro, the potential impact of tariffs and what to do about it [Self Publishing Advice]; Pep talk for authors during chaotic […] The post Ebook Sales, Subscriptions, Audiobooks And Book Marketing With Tara Cremin From Kobo Writing Life first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What’s the difference between telling a story on screen and on the page? How does indie film production overlap with indie publishing—and what can writers learn from the world of filmmaking? Why might a producer choose creative freedom over big studio deals, and what does that mean when it comes to book marketing? Gretchen McGowan […] The post Writing Memoir From A Life In Film With Gretchen McGowan first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are some ways you can market a book during a launch period using audio, video, and text? What does my JFPenn voice clone sound like narrating the first two chapters of my thriller, Death Valley? J.F. Penn is the Award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, horror, […] The post Death Valley Audiobook Chapters And Book Marketing Tips With J.F Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What’s the difference between writing a book and writing a screenplay? What are the different business models? If you’ve written a screenplay, how can you get it read? TD Donnelly talks about the challenges and rewards of screenwriting, as well as his first thriller novel. In the intro, ProWritingAid spring sales 25% off; Key takeaways […] The post From Hollywood To Novels: TD Donnelly On Screenwriting, Adaptation, and Storytelling That Lasts first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can we avoid the mistake of comparing our first drafts with the finished books we love? How can we improve our manuscripts? Kristopher Jansma gives his tips. In the intro, Finding your deepest reason to write [Ink In Your Veins]; London Book Fair, AI audio and ‘vibe coding’ [Self Publishing with ALLi]; Pirated database […] The post How Ordinary Drafts Become Extraordinary Books. Revisionaries With Kristopher Jansma first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can writing help you through difficult times, whether that’s a change you didn’t anticipate or an experience of grief? How can you differentiate between writing for yourself vs. writing for publication? Karen Wyatt gives her tips. In the intro, Amazon opens up AI narration with Audible Virtual Voice on the KDP Dashboard [KDP Help]; […] The post Writing As A Tool For Grief And Dealing With Change With Karen Wyatt first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you release more creativity into your writing — and your life? What are some practices to foster creativity in a time of change and overwhelm? Jacob Nordby gives his tips. In the intro, tips for spring cleaning as indie authors; Death Valley – A Thriller Kickstarter; Death Valley book trailer; Footprints Podcast – […] The post Intuition, Journaling, And Overcoming Fear. The Creative Cure With Jacob Nordby first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the tropes and reader expectations for action adventure thrillers? Why publish into KU and what are some of the ways to market there? How can travel enrich your writing? Luke Richardson gives his tips. In the intro, ProWritingAid launches their Manuscript Analysis tool; Navigating legal risk in memoir [The Indy Author]; Social media […] The post Writing Action Adventure And Traveling For Book Research With Luke Richardson first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you use Kickstarter to help bring your creative vision into reality? What are some of the biggest mistakes authors make? What are some tips to ensure your campaign is a success? Oriana Leckert shares her expertise. In the intro, AI-narrated audiobooks from ElevenLabs will now be accepted on Spotify through FindawayVoices; A Midwinter […] The post Kickstarter For Authors With Oriana Leckert first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do you keep the happiness and joy in your writing practice, along with managing the business side of being an author? Marissa Meyer gives her tips. In the intro, How authors can price their books for profit [Self-Publishing with ALLi]; How to recover from author burnout [Self-Publishing Advice]; my Brooke and Daniel crime series […] The post The Happy Writer With Marissa Meyer first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you use short stories to improve your writing craft across different genres? How can you make money from licensing your short stories in different ways? How do you structure a short story collection? Douglas Smith shares his tips. In the intro, S&S imprint says that authors no longer need to get blurbs for their books [The Guardian]; James Patterson will be headlining Author Nation 2025; How to sell books from a table [Novel Marketing Podcast]; My lessons learned about screenwriting; Death Valley, a Thriller. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn  Douglas Smith is a multi-award-winning Canadian author of novels, short stories and nonfiction, with over 200 short fiction publications in 36 countries and 27 languages. He's also the author of Playing the Short Game: How to Market and Sell Short Fiction, now out in its second edition. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes How beginner writers can use short fiction to improve their writing craft Overview of the different short story markets First rights and second rights for selling short stories Financial expectations for traditionally published short stories Tips for self-publishing a collection Benefits of exclusive short stories Using Spotify playlists as a discoverability mechanism – here's a playlist of my short stories on Spotify How to market a second edition You can find Doug at SmithWriter.com. Transcript of Interview with Douglas Smith Joanna: Douglas Smith is a multi-award-winning Canadian author of novels, short stories and nonfiction, with over 200 short fiction publications in 36 countries and 27 languages. He's also the author of Playing the Short Game: How to Market and Sell Short Fiction, now out in its second edition. So welcome back to the show, Doug. Douglas: Oh, thank you, Joanna. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me back. Joanna: Oh, yes. So first up­— Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and short stories, in particular. Douglas: Well, I guess I did a fair bit of writing in high school and a bit in university. Then I just drifted away from it, pursuing a business career and raising a family, etc. I always told myself I would go back and chase the writing dream someday. I remember, I was in my early 40s, and I came back from a family vacation, and one of the first things I read was the obituary for one of my all-time favorite writers, Roger Zelazny. He was the American science fiction fantasy writer, and he had died far too early at, I think, 56 from cancer. That just drove home the fact that none of us are guaranteed of a someday. So I started writing that summer and turned out about eight short stories. I joined a writing group to get feedback on my writing. Then about a year and a half later, it was actually on New Year's Eve of the following year, I got my first acceptance letter. So that was a great way to end a year and start a new one. So that's how I started. I started with short fiction. I started because one of my favorite writers died far too young. Joanna: What was your previous career? Douglas: I was an IT executive. Just in case people are wondering, I remained an IT executive. I did not give up the day job, so writing was done in spare time. Especially when I started with short fiction, it's very hard to live and raise a family on the proceeds of short stories. Joanna: I think that's a really important thing to say. I suspected you were going to say that. Then just with perspective— So what year was it that you did that first sale? Douglas: That story came out in '97, so a long time ago. That story actually ended up winning an award. So, yes, it was a good start, but I stayed with writing short fiction for about 10 years. Part of that was inertia, and part of it was just writing a novel at that time seemed kind of daunting. I finally did decide that I needed, for the same someday issue, that I wanted to move into novels, and I better not wait any longer. Joanna: Yes. I mean, obviously the publishing industry is quite different from 1997, and we'll come back to some of the other markets. What have you noticed with short fiction in particular, or in general with the indie author community, and things changing? I mean— This book, Playing the Short Game, you self-published this, right? Douglas: Yes, I did, and my novels as well. My collections, which were the first things I put out, they came out from traditional publishers that are small press publishers, one in the UK and one in Canada. When it came to the point where I was ready to publish my first novel, for me, I saw no upside in trying to go a traditional publishing route. Ironically, my advice is quite different for short fiction. One, I think writers should start with short fiction and that they should pursue the traditional short story markets that are, if anything, far more numerous now than when I started. Thanks to the option of a lot of these short fiction magazines or anthologies, they put out ebook editions, so it's a lot easier. You don't have to worry about the physical distribution, physical production of the magazines. There's still a lot of print magazines around, still a lot of print anthologies, but you'll find there's a lot of options for selling short fiction. Much more than when I started. Joanna: So let's get to some of the pros and cons, I guess. So you said there you do think fiction authors should start with short stories. Why do you recommend that? Why write short stories? What is fun about it? What are the good craft reasons? Douglas: Yes, it is fun. I mean, if you do not like short fiction as a reader, it's going to be difficult for you to be successful as a writer. So that would be the first thing. The standard advice for any writer is you've got to be a reader. If you don't read, you're not going to be a writer. Why short fiction to start with? My main, strongest argument is that it helps you learn your craft. It teaches you how to be a writer. There are far too many indie novels out there that are, quite frankly, terrible. The good thing with short fiction is that it gives you a method where you can try out a lot of different types of stories, types of story structure. You can basically build your toolbox as a writer, and many of those tools are the same ones you're going to need if you move onto novels. The other thing is it gives you a benchmark. If you're writing short stories and sending them out to professional markets—and I assume we'll get into that—you get a wonderful little measuring stick for when you've become a professional writer. Or in other words, when your writing has become good enough that someone out there wants to pay you money to publish it, in the hopes that they will make money from what they publish. So if you don't do that, if you just jump into indie and send your stories out into the world, put them up on retail sites, quite frankly, it's probably not going to be a very good piece of writing. It's hard to develop a craft. One of the complaints I have with a lot of the indie writers out there is, and you see it if you go to convention, all they focus on is, “I've written a book. Now, how can I market it? Please tell me the secret to beating an algorithm.” There are good marketing approaches. The problem is, if you come up with a good marketing approach for your novel, your first novel, it's probably going to do you more harm than good. Because if you get a lot of people to read it, and they read it and say, this is not very good, they're never going to come back to your writing. As opposed to if you've taught yourself the craft of writing, and you become a competent writer, and you get to the point where professional publishers are willing to give you money for your short stories, your writing has reached that point. So when you move to a novel, it's going to be a different beast than short stories, but you're going to have a lot of the skills already in place that you've honed over the time you've been writing short fiction. So that's my main argument for writing short stories, is that it teaches you how to be a writer. One more thing is, the example I love to give is, you can try a lot more points of view: first person, third person. Different story structures, things you want to try. Genres: horror, science fiction, fantasy, mainstream. You can try more of those over 25,000-word short stories than you can in one 100,000-word novel. You've written the same number of words, but you're going to come out at the end of those 20 short stories being much more knowledgeable and a better writer than writing that first 100,000 word novel. Joanna: I mean, I totally agree with you there in terms of the potential for doing shorter stories. I mean, you said 5000 words. What is a short story range, in terms of word count? Because people often get obsessed with this. Douglas: Yes, and the definitions I'll give are from the Science Fiction Fantasy Writers Association. So a short story is anything up to, I think it's 7500 words. Then a novelette is above that, up to 17,750 or 17,500, I can't remember which. Then a novella is above that, up to 40,000 words. Then flash, it varies. Anything typically up to 1000 words is called flash. Your typical short story, if you look at markets out there, they will want something in the range of 3000 to 5000 words. If you write above that, the other tip I'll give is, the longer the story is, the harder it will be to sell. If you've got a 10,000-word story, and an editor loves your story, but they also love two 5000-word stories from two other writers, they're probably going to buy those two stories as opposed to your one big one. They're taking a bigger chance on your single story. Joanna: Okay, well, let's talk about those markets then, because you mentioned the traditional short story markets, but that there are a lot more of them these days. Give us an overview of what you mean by short story markets. Obviously, just so everyone knows, in the book you go through this extensively. So I highly recommend people get the book for more detail, but just give us an overview. Douglas: Well, generally speaking, your markets for any story that you write—and we're going to have to get into the rights that you'll be dealing with when you're trying to market a short story—but simply, it's a magazine. There are lots of magazine markets out there, and those are ones that come up with a different issue—not too many do it monthly anymore—but four times a year, three times a year. They are either in print format and/or electronic edition. So they're called serial publications. Then the other main market is an anthology, the anthology markets. Those are books that contain stories from different authors. So those are your two main options. Anthologies typically are themed, so they have the advantage of, if you've got a very strange story, you may luck out and find that there is an anthology coming out of radioactive chickens from space or something. You haven't been able to sell that story of yours, and now you probably have a higher probability. So anthologies and magazines. The other major market would be audio markets. Again, there can be audio anthologies or audio zines as well, and they will be producing essentially a podcast version of your story. They will have a narrator that will read your story and dramatize it. That's the third type. Joanna: Let's talk about the different rights. Because it is quite different, isn't it, to long form fiction and nonfiction. Douglas: In many ways, it's very similar. The main thing that if you're going to start writing at all is understand that you have rights. As soon as you finished a story or a novel, you have rights associated with that creation. So for short stories, when a publisher that you've submitted to comes back to you and says, “Hey, I love this story, I want to publish it,” we typically say, “Hey, I sold a short story.” You actually haven't sold anything. What you're going to be doing is licensing a very particular set of rights to that publisher. They're going to have a number of dimensions. The first dimension I deal with in the book is, I call it the Media Dimension, and we just talked about the three different types of markets. So if you're selling to a print magazine, they're going to want to license print rights. If they're only in electronic format, then they'll want electronic rights. If they're an audiobook publisher, they'll want audio rights. So there's that, there's the three dimensions of types of media, and that's combined with whether they're an anthologist or a magazine. So for example, if I sold a story to a magazine that only has print editions, they would want to license serial print rights. Serial means they're a magazine, and they need print rights to legally publish my story, because that's the format they're in. If they also have an ebook edition, then they'd ask for print and electronic serial rights. The other dimension is language. So, I mean, most of your listeners are going to be writing in English. Then the other dimension is geography. Some publishers, short fiction publishers, are still restricted to a particular geography, and that is usually only for print publishers. So if a magazine publishes in Canada only, and distributes in Canada only, for example, they would ask for first Canadian print serial rights. So all these things in English, all these things, as you see, get combined into a collection of rights that they'll be licensing from you. Joanna: You mentioned first serial rights there, and this is what's quite different. With short stories, you might have first rights and then reprint rights. Douglas: I call them old currents rights. The very first time you sell a story, they will be licensing first rights from you. It'll be first—whatever those other rights were—first print rights, first audio rights, etc. After that, there's a time period associated with rights, and it's called the reversion period. After your story has been published, the rights will revert to you. Meaning that the publisher will say, “Hey, the story is yours again. You can do whatever you want with it.” Typically, if it's a magazine, they will ask for a reversion period that will be somewhere around where the following issue comes out. So if they publish four times a year, they'll probably ask for about a six-month reversion period, and that's very fair. Anthologists will ask for anything from a year to two years after the publication date. So let's say that reversion period has passed, the rights come back to you. Those rights come back as second rights, not first rights. You only get to sell license first rights once. When you do have those rights come back to you though, you can now, what we call, sell a reprint. In other words, you can market to another publication that accepts reprints and sell the story over and over and over again. No matter how many times you sell a reprint, you're always licensing second right. So there's no such thing as third rights or fourth rights or anything. It's one time for first rights, and after that, you can license second rights as many times as you can find a market who wants to publish your reprint. Joanna: I feel like that is one of the big differences with rights for a novel. I mean, I see a lot of authors getting term of copyright contracts, or really, really long time limits. Whereas, as you say with shorts, they're maybe six months or up to two years, but then you can keep selling it over and over again. I'm sure you have sold some of your shorts multiple times over decades. Douglas: Yes, for sure. I've got stories that I've sold 30-plus times. Joanna: Wow. So, well, then for people listening, 30-plus times— How much money can writers expect to get for a short story for the premium traditional markets? Douglas: So that's a good question, and it leads into what my strategy is for short fiction that I recommend to writers. It's that you're only going to get the top rates from a short fiction market if it's a pro market. Pro markets only license first rights, they don't take reprints. So I'll eventually answer your question, but the main point I want to make is my strong recommendation is that when you're sending your stories out, when you try to sell them for the first time, you only submit to the top professional markets. That's the only time you'll ever get a chance to get into an Asimov, or a Fantasy and Science Fiction, or a Lightspeed, etc, because once you've sold that story, they're never going to be interested in it. So you need to, as I say in the book, start at the top. Start at your most desired markets, the ones that have the most cachet. Those are also the ones that pay the top pro rates, and also the ones that get the most awards, press, and nods, etc. After you get the rights back from that, you can market it to any market that takes a reprint. You'll find anything. You'll find markets that will simply publish your story and not give you any money. You can find markets that will pay you up to five, six cents a word for a reprint. Whereas pro rates, I think, they're still at eight cents a word for SFWA. So it really ranges. So how much money you can make from a story kind of depends on what you want to sell your reprint at. I personally warn authors that if you sell a story anytime, it's going to involve work and time on your part. So you should set sort of a minimum dollar amount that you're willing to accept to pay you for your time to work with the editor, go over the print copy before it's published, etc. Joanna: So on that, eight cents a word, it'd be around $400 then for a 5000-word story at premium market. Douglas: Yes. At US dollar rates, yes. Joanna: US dollar rates. Then, let's say, in six months, you get that story back, and then you can do what you like with it. As you said, you can license it over and over again. It's so interesting. I've written now a few short stories and have been in a few anthologies, but basically, I've never submitted to any traditional markets. Mainly because of my lack of patience and the fact that, I guess, I know that if I publish it myself and put it out right now, then I'm going to get some money. Especially if I'm selling direct, I'm going to make more than that $400 from my own audience. So it's a very different definition of success, I guess, in terms of cachet and awards versus money in your pocket now. I noticed that you also sell direct. How do you balance that side as well? Douglas: Sure, so one comment on that. I mean, you have a name, and you have a huge audience and platform, so it's more conceivable that you're going to be able to indie publish a piece of short fiction and get more money than a beginner. So my comments are focused at the beginning writer, and if you want to get the most mileage out of your short story that comes from selling it to a top pro market. It helps you build your resume. You can also build up a backlist. You can attract fans and subscribers to a newsletter, using some of your short stories as reader magnets, etc. So it helps you build up your own network. So, you know, you're in a position where you already have that. If I'm a beginning writer, my advice to them is I would still start with short fiction. So, yes, probably about two dozen of my early short stories are available in ebook format. So those are all stories that I sold first rights for to a traditional market. So in other words, when I did an ebook for those stories, the rights had already reverted back to me. The story had been out. A lot of them were award winners or award finalists. I did it at the time because I was sort of just getting into looking at indie publishing. I didn't have any novels, so I thought I'd try just putting out some of my short stories as individual ebooks, use them as reader magnets, etc. I got a great artist who gave me a great deal on producing covers for them, so they all have the same cover. It was a price that made it sensible to try that experiment. So, yes, if you go to Amazon, any of the retailers, if you go to the bookstore on my website, you'll be able to buy my short stories individually. That's not how I started, and I would never put out a new short story that way. I'd still go to a traditional market for it. Joanna: Okay, I think that's really interesting. I do want to point out to everyone that I grew my audience, and that everyone has to grow their own audience over a long, long time. You've obviously done the same thing, I think starting at different times. I started a decade after you, so 2007 was my first book that I self-published. So it's kind of interesting how things change over time. I do want to just ask about collections because, obviously, you have collections. Here I'm saying a collection as a single author, as opposed to an anthology with multiple authors with shorts. What are your tips around doing a collection, since I am thinking of doing this myself? Douglas: The first step is to make sure that you have enough quality stories. So enough means, you know, minimum 80,000 words. I think a dozen stories that is at least that length would be reasonable. The main point is that those stories all have to be good. A collection, it's like a chain is strong as the weakest length. It's going to be judged on the worst story in the book. So as soon as the reader hits a weak one, sadly, they're probably going to remember that one. So you really need your 12, whatever, best stories. So you need to have written more than 12 stories because probably the 12 that you've written aren't the best. They all should have appeared in a top market because that is one of the ways you can tell it's a good story. Someone paid you pro rates for it. If you have any award winners or award finalists or stories that appeared in annual best of anthologies, they go in as well. So that's the main thing. They have to be quality stories because this collection is going to be a calling card for you. After that, it depends. The next piece, let's say you've picked your great stories that you want to put in the collection, he next thing is, what order do you put them in? The rule for doing collections or anthologies pretty much has stayed the same since I started writing, anyway. Figure out what your best three or four stories are. You put the best one first, and another really good one last, and you put another strong one second. So the idea is you want to pull the reader in with two really good stories and then leave them with a positive memory the collection when they read the last one. If you have another really good one, you should put it in the middle as sort of a tent pole in case things are flagging. So that's the quality criteria for sorting through what order you want to put your stories in. After that, it comes down to, as I say in the book, trying to craft a reader experience. You have to sit down and think, “Okay, they just finished this story. What should come next?” There's so many ways to do that. I write in science fiction, and fantasy, and horror, and some Slipstream, etc. So do I mix all those? Do I put one section for all my science fiction? Do I put one section for my fantasy, etc.? The questions I put out, I alternate, but I also look at the tone. You have to look at the length too. By tone, I mean, if you have a really, really downer story, you might want to follow that with something more upbeat. The reverse is true too. If you have a couple that are like novel at length, you probably don't want to put them back to back. You want to have a shorter story following a long story. It's crafting the reader experience. Joanna: I read a lot of short story collections and anthologies, and it's more that I dip in, and I never, ever read them in order. I usually only read like one story at a time. It's something I do before I go to sleep, like just before bed. So it's very weird because I feel like different readers have different experiences. So we can try our best, but readers might just decide to do what the hell they want. I do have two other points on this. What about including exclusive short stories? So I'm going to do a Kickstarter for my collection, and I'm thinking of including a couple of short stories that have not been seen anywhere else, so they're real exclusives. Then also, I was wondering about extra material. So I always do an author's note as to what inspired the story. I was thinking of expanding those sort of into interstitial pieces. So any thoughts on those two things? Douglas: Yes, both good points. One is if you have a story that has not been published anywhere else, you should include one of those. One, it's a bit of a teaser. If you have a fan who's a completist and they just want to read everything that you write, the only way they're going to be able to read that story is if they buy the collection. So it is a good policy to include one previously unpublished short story in a collection. The additional material, the author notes around stories, I personally love, and I'd recommend it. I mentioned Roger Zelazny is one of my favorite writers, and he had a lot of collections. What I enjoyed about his collections were his either forwards or afterwards where he talks about the story and how the idea arrived, and maybe how it ties into other stories he'd written, etc. I love that. I know I had a couple of comments on my collections where people were saying they didn't like it. They just want to read the short stories. So, I mean, you can't please everybody. I would say, in general, most of the feedback I've received on my short stories, my collections, has been that the reader enjoys learning more about the story. Either how you wrote it, or why you wrote it, or whatever. So I'd recommend putting that in. Sometimes I've done it as forwards, sometimes afterwards. Depends if there's any spoilers. Sometimes both. Joanna: Yes, I think that's really good. I mean, I'm thinking in my special edition for the Kickstarter, I'll include photos if I can, as to some of the things that sparked the idea or a thing to make it a special, special collection. Which I feel is possible now with the print possibilities we can do. I also wondered just on the audio, so at the moment, I narrate my own short stories and just release them as individuals. With a collection, again, I will narrate the whole thing and release that separately. I wondered if you had any thoughts on audiobook collections for short stories? Douglas: Interesting. I'm not sure I have the patience to do my own narration, so I think it's a personal thing. I certainly don't have the expertise to talk about producing audiobooks. I've had a lot of my short stories produced as audio plays, but that's because I've submitted them to audio markets. There are good productions and bad productions. I've sort of found the ones that I absolutely love and who will actually cast a story, and they'll have different voice actors for the different characters. I find that just so awesome. I think if you're an indie writer and you're thinking of doing your audiobooks, I know I would say, first of all, am I willing to invest in the necessary audio setup? Do I have the patience to do the narration and do the editing, etc.? I think it's a personal choice. Audio is a growing market. Joanna: Yes, and it's really interesting because I talked to Spotify at Author Nation last year, and they said what they're often now doing is audio that's under an hour. Generally, an hour of audio is about 9000 words, so pretty much all short stories are going to be under their range of an hour. So they're kind of serving those in their discovery thing for people's commute because that's the average commute. So just a tip for people listening, creating playlists on Spotify of short story collections or anthologies, just with other people. You don't have to publish them. You can just link to them in a playlist. [Here's a playlist of my short stories on Spotify, most narrated by me.] I think that's actually a really good discoverability mechanism for things like Spotify, which is now trying to get more and more people into audio fiction and audio nonfiction. Douglas: Yes, especially if it leads listeners to your other work. Joanna: Yes, exactly. You can do cross promotion that way. So I can link one of my horror short stories, to one of yours, to one of Mark Leslie Lefebvre’s. So we can make these playlists mixing stories that we like, just as a more discoverability mechanism, as I mentioned. So I think that's something new that's really only emerged in the last couple of years. Anything else on short stories? Because I do have one other question before we finish. Douglas: I'm making notes here because that's going to go into the next edition, in terms of audio versions and Spotify. I mean, there's so much to talk about. One of the reasons I put out the second edition is, well, one, it had been 10 years since the first one. Then, two, when I looked at my notes, there had been so many things that had changed over the past decade. Joanna: Well, that is my last question. I've also just done a second edition of my How To Write Non-Fiction, which now includes memoir and all of this. I know a second edition can be a right pain. So I wondered if you had any thoughts for nonfiction authors who are listening— When do you do another edition? When is it worth it for you? Also, what is the difference in marketing it? Since many people, including me, also have your first edition. Douglas: What I did when I put out the first one, my email is in the back, and people would get in touch with me via the website. I encouraged writers to reach out to me because it was sort of my way of paying forward to new writers to write that book. If they had any questions interpreting what I'd written, or something I didn't cover, I encouraged them to please reach out to me, and a lot of writers did. Sometimes it was just clarifying what I had in the book. Other times it was, “Wow, that's a really good question. I didn't think of that scenario,” and I would just start to keep a file of things to add to the second edition. So when I realized it had been a decade, and I started coming across things like Ralland.com, which was my go to market list, and he stopped updating his website. So I realized that there's probably a lot of other changes. I looked at that file and said, yup, there's ever so much I can put into a new edition. So it was that. When is the right time? I think when you start to look at the first version and say, “Wow, no, that's actually not right anymore,” or, “I should say more about that particular topic.” Joanna: What about the challenges marketing a second edition? Douglas: I'm not big on marketing, I guess. I don't do a lot around that, and probably should do more. For this one, I told my newsletter subscribers. Most of them are readers, not writers, but there is some overlap. The retailer sites help because the first edition sold pretty, pretty consistently. So, now if you go to Amazon and look for this, you're only going to find the second edition. So linking the first edition to, “Hey, there's a new edition,” things like that, but honestly, that was it. Joanna: Well, I must say, you didn't pitch me for this. I pitched you because I saw it in, I think it was a StoryBundle last year. Douglas: Yes, by Kristine Kathryn Rusch. She will do these wonderful reader bundles. She does at least one a year, etc. I communicate with Kris and Dean fairly regularly, and she reached out to me and said, “I see you're putting out a second edition. I've got a StoryBundle that's coming out in two months. Would you have an ebook edition ready for that time frame?” I said, “Yes, sure. Can you write a new introduction for it?” Joanna: So I think that's important because — People think marketing is just like paying for Facebook ads, but it's also your network, and you've been growing your network for a really long time. Obviously, Kris is an amazing writer. She was also an editor in short story markets and all that. So that's part of your network giving you opportunities, which is just as important. Douglas: Yes, for sure. I know Jason, who runs StoryBundle, so it all helps. There's different ways to market. I know Kris and Dean because I went to their workshop a couple of decades ago. The first one I went to was How to Write Short Fiction. Joanna: Amazing. Douglas: Led by Kris and Gardner Dozois, the late Gardner Dozois. I think Kris is the only person who beat Gardner for a Hugo for Best Editor. Joanna: Wow. I've been on Dean and Kris's workshops and things like that, and that's kind of how I've ended up discovering your work. So just for people listening, again, sometimes these things take decades to come around, but that's okay. Where can people find you, and your books, and your stories online? Douglas: Sure. The best starting point is my website, which is SmithWriter.com. You can find links to my own bookstore or to all the retailer sites. I just completed an urban fantasy trilogy called The Dream Rider Saga, and the books are The Hollow Boys, The Crystal Key and The Lost Expedition. The Hollow Boys won two awards when it came out. The third book, The Lost Expedition, just came out last year, and I had an earlier novel as well. You can find links to those and all my collections on the website. Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Doug. That was great. Douglas: Okay, thanks for having me on again, Joanna.The post Writing And Selling Short Stories With Douglas Smith first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Why is ‘story’ more important than ‘writing’? How can you write characters that engage the reader? And how can you sell more books by connecting authentically? Douglas Vigliotti shares his tips. In the intro, Bookshop.org will start selling ebooks [TechCrunch]; LinkedIn for Book Promotion [ALLi]; The Money Making Expert, branding and marketing [DOAC]; 24 Assets – […] The post Aristotle for Novelists, And A Strategy For Selling More Books With Douglas Vigliotti first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How does generative AI relate to fair use when it comes to copyright? What are the possibilities for AI licensing? Alicia Wright shares her thoughts on generative AI for authors. In the intro, Publishing leaders share 9 Bold Predictions for 2025 [BookBub]; OpenAI launches Operator [The Verge]; Bertelsmann (who own Penguin Random House) intends to […] The post Fair Use, Copyright, And Licensing. AI And The Author Business With Alicia Wright first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you build a long-term author career with multiple streams of income? How can you use technology for the grunt work and not the fun part of writing? Kevin J Anderson gives his tips. In the intro, has TikTok gone dark? [AP]; BookVault is expanding printing to Australia; GPSR, the EU’s new General Product […] The post Building A Long Term Author Business, Dictation, Kickstarter, and Short Story Collections With Kevin J Anderson first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you balance creativity with business in order to have a profitable, long-term author career? What were the successes and challenges of the Author Nation conference? Joe Solari shares his perspective. In the intro, the money episode [Ink In Your Veins]; WISE for multi-currency banking; creative planning tips for 2025 [Self~Publishing Advice]; Surprising Trends […] The post Balancing Creativity With Building A Business, And Author Nation With Joe Solari first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Are you curious about the hidden structures that turn ordinary manuscripts into irresistible page-turning stories? Wondering how to shape your characters, scenes, and chapters so readers can’t put your book down? Kristen Tate shares her tips. In the intro, key book publishing paths [Jane Friedman]; sub-rights and why it’s important to understand how many ways […] The post Writing Tips: Craft, Structure, and Voice With Kristen Tate first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Happy New Year 2025! I love January and the opportunity to start afresh. I know it’s arbitrary in some ways, but I measure my life by what I create, and I also measure it in years. At the beginning of each year, I publish an article (and podcast episode) here, which helps keep me accountable. If you’d […] The post My 2025 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Another year ends, and once more, it’s time to reflect on our creative goals. I hope you can take the time to review your goals and you’re welcome to leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? Let me know in the comments. It’s always interesting looking […] The post Review Of My 2024 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you create when there’s an overwhelming list of things to do and too many competing priorities? How can you balance self-care with achieving your creative goals. In this episode, I’ll share some tips from previous podcast guests to help you step back, reassess your priorities, and hopefully help you let go of at […] The post Creative Clarity: Focus, Self-Care, And A Little Bit Of Tough Love first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you write a book proposal that will make a publisher want to buy your book? How can you write a successful non-fiction book that both interests you and attracts a lot of readers? How can you improve your communication in person and online? Charles Duhigg gives his thoughts. In the intro, HarperCollins CEO […] The post Book Proposals, Writing Non-Fiction, And Supercommunicators With Charles Duhigg first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you build a scalable business around non-fiction books? How can you turn a book into multiple streams of income? How can you delegate in order to scale? Michael Bungay Stanier shares his thoughts. In the intro, Bookfunnel’s Universal Book Links, and How to Write Non-Fiction Second Edition; ALCS survey results of writers on […] The post Building A Business Ecosystem Around Non-Fiction Books With Michael Bungay Stanier first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can we write from the perspective of others while still respecting different cultures? How can a children’s book author make money from bulk sales? How is self-publishing in South Africa different? With Ashling McCarthy. In the intro, Spotify for Authors and Katie Cross on self-narration and email marketing; How do I know when to […] The post Writing The Other And Self-Publishing in South Africa With Ashling McCarthy first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you manage the competing priorities of an author career? How can you deal with the demons we all have to wrestle with along the way? Tiffany Yates Martin talks about the role of intuition in decision-making, the challenges of feedback and rejection, and the importance of reclaiming creativity during difficult times. In the […] The post The Intuitive Author With Tiffany Yates Martin first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you write memoir with deep sensory detail? How does terroir in wine equate to the writer’s voice? How can you manage your online presence while still protecting yourself from the haters? Multi-award-winning wine writer Natalie MacLean shares her tips. In the intro, initial thoughts on Author Nation 2024, photos from Death Valley @jfpennauthor, […] The post Writing Memoir And Dealing With Haters With Natalie Maclean first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What is dark tourism and why are many of us interested in places associated with death and tragedy? How can you write and self-publish a premium print guidebook while managing complicated design elements, image permissions, and more? With Leon Mcanally. In the intro, level up with author assistants [Written Word Media]; and Blood Vintage signing […] The post Dark Tourism And Self-Publishing Premium Print Books With Images With Leon Mcanally first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do you approach writing a second edition of a non-fiction book? How does self-publishing compare to working with a traditional publisher? Can you build a viable business without active social media use? Gin Stephens shares her tips. In the intro, the end of Kindle Vella [Amazon]; Lessons from week one of the book launch […] The post Self-Publishing A Second Edition Of A Non-Fiction Book With Gin Stephens first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are some of the key elements in writing horror? How can you be successful writing and self-publishing in the genre? With Boris Bacic. More on writing horror: How To Write Horror, tips, interviews and resources in one place. In the intro, ISBNs made easy [Self-publishing Advice]; Written Word Media’s 2024 author survey; Taylor Swift […] The post Writing Horror With Boris Bacic first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do you successfully scale an author business? How do you delegate to your team as well as continue to research and write the books you love? With award-winning crime author, Rachel McLean. In the intro, new Kindle devices [Amazon]; new European markets for Spotify audiobooks [Spotify]; customisable audio with Google NotebookLM; Amazon Ads launches […] The post Scaling An Author Business With Rachel McLean first appeared on The Creative Penn.

The Creative Penn Podcast just hit 10 million downloads as reported by my audio host, Blubrry! The podcast is also the main content on my YouTube channel @thecreativepenn, which has had over 3.9 million views, so the total could be closer to 14m. I’m pretty happy with that, so thanks for listening! Here are some […] The post 7 Lessons Learned From Over 10 Million Downloads Of The Creative Penn Podcast first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Can you be successful as an author across different genres and different pen names? How do traditional publishing and going indie compare? How can you diversify into multiple streams of income as an author? With Emily E.K. Murdoch. In the intro, Planning for retirement [Self-Publishing Advice]; my list of money books; Red flags in serialised (and […] The post Writing Historical Fiction And Non-Fiction With Emily E K Murdoch first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can the ‘hungry author’ mindset help you become more of a successful author? Why do you need to shift your point of view to that of the reader so your book resonates with them? What are some of the key aspects of writing and marketing non-fiction books? Ariel Curry gives her tips in this […] The post Author Mindset, Writing And Marketing Non-Fiction With Ariel Curry first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you bring laughter into your books regardless of genre? What are the challenges of writing a novel after an award-winning career as a comedy writer for TV and radio? Dave Cohen shares his lessons learned in this interview. In the intro, how to keep a career fresh over multiple books [Author Nation Podcast]; […] The post How To Make Readers Laugh. Writing Humour With Dave Cohen first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you be successful at connecting with readers and selling books at live, in-person events? What are some practical tips as well as mindset shifts that can help you make the most of the opportunities? Mark Leslie Lefebvre shares his experience. In the intro, Beventi for author events, Reader survey results [Written Word Media]; […] The post Selling Books In Person At Live Events With Mark Lefebvre first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Success as an author comes with challenges around managing money, setting boundaries, and living sustainably without burning out. Sacha Black/Ruby Roe talks about her lessons learned after five years as a full-time author entrepreneur. In the intro, Content marketing for authors [BookBub]; Vineyard research [Books and Travel]; AI-generated voice cloning for select US Audible narrators […] The post Pivoting Genres And Growing An Author Business With Sacha Black first appeared on The Creative Penn.

In this solo episode, I talk about my lessons learned from 13 years as a full-time author entrepreneur. You can read/listen to previous updates at TheCreativePenn.com/timeline. Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller, dark fantasy, horror, crime, and memoir author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an […] The post Lessons Learned from 13 Years as an Author Entrepreneur first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What needs to go into a training manual if you are teaching physical skills? How can you focus in on your super fans and create only for them, while still making a living from multiple streams of income? Guy Windsor explains more in this interview. In the intro, Amazon celebrates a decade of Kindle Unlimited […] The post Self-Publishing Training Manuals And Focusing On Your True Fans With Guy Windsor first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you sell a fiction experience rather than just selling a story? How do our personal obsessions arise in our books, whatever the genre? David Viergutz shares his thoughts in this episode. More on writing horror: How To Write Horror, tips, interviews and resources in one place. In the intro, the best marketing investments […] The post Writing Horror And Selling Direct With David Viergutz first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you move past your limiting beliefs to find success as an author? How can you successfully self-publish in Germany? Andrea Wilk shares her thoughts in this episode. In the intro, how to cope with writer conferences [Ink in Your Veins]; Author Nation schedule; Conde Nast signs a licensing deal with OpenAI [Hollywood Reporter]; […] The post Author Mindset Tips And Publishing In Germany With AD Wilk first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you balance creativity with business when it comes to writing — and filmmaking? How can you access that ‘touch of madness’ in everything you create? How can authors pitch their books for film? All this and more with Larry Kasanoff. In the intro, Paid ads with BookBub, Facebook and Amazon [BookBub]; Blood Vintage […] The post A Touch of the Madness: Creativity In Writing And Filmmaking With Larry Kasanoff first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How are publishers using AI and what are the potential use cases in the future? Why is this an exciting time in publishing for those who use the new tools to expand their creative possibilities? Thad McIlroy and I have a wonderful discussion about the current state of AI in publishing, and where we think […] The post Artificial Intelligence (AI) In Publishing With Thad McIlroy first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you write freely and release any blocks that are holding you back? How can you focus on the strengths in your writing and avoid critical voice? Robin Finn gives plenty of writing tips in this interview. In the intro, KDP’s identity verification; Why authors need platforms [Kathleen Schmidt]; Romance genre report from K-lytics; […] The post Heart. Soul. Pen. Find Your Voice on the Page With Robin Finn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

When is it time to leave an unsuccessful series behind and pivot into something new? What is the process of writing to market? Anna Sayburn Lane explores these topics and more. In the intro, help with Amazon KDP Account suspension [Kindlepreneur]; Selling direct to the EU? Thresholds coming in 2025; Some honest thoughts about the […] The post Pivoting Genres And Writing Historical Fiction With Anna Sayburn Lane first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Why is writing emotion so important in our books, whatever the genre? How can we create an emotional connection between our readers and our characters? Roz Morris gives her tips in this episode. In the intro, how to get your indie book into schools [Self-Publishing Advice]; Did my bestselling book turn out to be a […] The post Writing Emotion With Roz Morris first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you lean into intuition and curiosity to embrace discovery writing? How might serial fiction fit into your business model? KimBoo York gives her tips and more in this interview. In the intro, BookVault now has integration with PayHip; 7 lessons learned from 5 years writing full-time [Sacha Black, Rebel Author Podcast]; My author […] The post Intuitive Discovery Writing And Serial Fiction With KimBoo York first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you make sure your manuscript is ready for submission to an agent — or for publication if you go indie? What are the benefits and challenges of traditional publishing? Will they really do all the marketing for you? Renee Fountain talks about these things and more in today’s interview. In the intro, Referencing […] The post Preparing Your Manuscript For Pitching Agents With Renee Fountain first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Can you have a business with a soul through writing? How does the business of fiction differ from non-fiction? What are some tips for pitching a book for film & TV? All this and more with Aurora Winter. In the intro, 100 book marketing ideas [Written Word Media]; 25 indie authors tips to finding success […] The post Turn Words Into Wealth With Aurora Winter first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do we write authentic humanity into our books, whether that’s our own experience or a fictional character’s? How can we embrace the challenges of life and the author journey and make the most of the opportunities along the way? Efren Delgado gives his tips in this interview. In the intro, How to plan and […] The post Writing Hard Truths And Tips For Writing Non-Fiction With Efren Delgado first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can we use AI tools to enhance and improve our creative process? How can we double down on being human by writing what we are passionate about, while still using generative AI to help fulfil our creative vision? Rachelle Ayala gives her thoughts in this episode. Today’s show is sponsored by my patrons! Join […] The post Collaborative Writing With AI With Rachelle Ayala first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are some of the common fears that writers face? How can we work through them in order to create more freely? Caroline Donahue gives her tips in this interview. In the intro, How to avoid indie author scams [ALLi; Writer Beware]; Financial strategies and mindset [Self Publishing Advice]; Apple Intelligence at WWDC [The Verge; […] The post Writing Through Fear With Caroline Donahue first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the pros and cons of selling direct and building an ecommerce business for your books? How can you use click testing on Meta to help refine your creative and book marketing ideas? Steve Pieper explains in this interview. In the intro, The Hotsheet with Jane Friedman; 20 ways you should be using AI […] The post Click Testing Ideas And Selling Direct With Steve Pieper first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the tropes of action adventure thrillers? How can you please readers and sell more books? J.F. Penn shares her own tips and also features excerpts from interviews with other thriller writers. J.F. Penn is the award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of the ARKANE action-adventure thrillers, the Mapwalker fantasy adventures, […] The post 7 Tips For Writing Action Adventure Thrillers With J.F. Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you adopt the seasons of nature in your writing? How can you allow periods of rest as well as abundance? Jacqueline Suskin explores these ideas and more in this interview. In the intro, thoughts on children’s book publishing [Always Take Notes Podcast]; how to market a memoir as an indie author [ALLi]; A […] The post The Seasons Of Writing With Jacqueline Suskin first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you plan for success as an indie author even early in your writing career? How can you create multiple streams of income and multiple marketing channels, while still writing your books? Adam Beswick goes into his strategies. In the intro, Kickstarter announces new functionality to help creatives;Watch out for a scam email about […] The post Plan For Success In Your Indie Author Business And TikTok Marketing With Adam Beswick first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you outline a story based on a ‘thought dump’ and interweave genre tropes you love to create a successful book? How can you use video marketing to reach more readers, even if you are an introvert? Jenna Moreci gives her tips. In the intro, my new ProWritingAid tutorial; Embracing change and starting over […] The post Outlining Tips And Video Marketing On YouTube With Jenna Moreci first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you blend ‘work for hire’, ghostwriting, and being an indie author into a successful hybrid career writing books for children? Aubre Andrus gives her tips. In the intro, Countdown Pages on FindawayVoices by Spotify; the impact of AI narrated audiobooks on Audible [Bloomberg]; Ideas for short fiction anthologies and Kevin J. Anderson’s Kickstarter; […] The post How Writing Work For Hire Books Led To Becoming An Indie Author With Aubre Andrus first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you use automation and tools to help you streamline your creative and business processes so you can get back to the writing? Chelle Honiker gives some mindset and practical tips. In the intro, IBPA guide to publishing models; We need to talk about independence [Self Publishing Advice article; my podcast episode with Orna […] The post Using Tools To Automate Your Author Business with Chelle Honiker first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you connect to readers in a way that is sustainable for you and effective at selling books? How can you choose the best platform when there are so many options? Dan Blank gives his recommendations. In the intro, TikTok ban signed into law in the USA [The Verge]; No One Buys Books [Elle Griffin]; […] The post Human-Centered Book Marketing With Dan Blank first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you build a creative, sustainable career as a ‘mid-list’ indie author? How can you design a business that works for you and your books over the long term? T. Thorn Coyle explains more in this episode. In the intro, BookVault bespoke printing options; Harper Collins partners with Eleven Labs for AI-narrated non-English audiobooks […] The post The Midlist Indie Author With T. Thorn Coyle first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What can authors learn from the adoption of AI into the music industry? What are some of the ways musicians are making money in the fractured creator economy? Tristra Newyear Yeager gives her thoughts in this interview. In the intro, Draft2Digital announced a retail distribution agreement with Fable [D2D]; Kobo launches a new color e-reader […] The post Generative AI Impact On Creativity And Business In the Music Industry With Tristra Newyear Yeager first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you overcome your fears and make a life change towards your dreams? Or tackle the fears that stop you from writing and publishing your book? Rachael Herron talks about creating despite the fear, and getting unstuck in this interview. In the intro, Blackberry movie and IP questions; The Copyright Handbook by Steven Fishman; […] The post Facing Fears In Writing And Life With Rachael Herron first appeared on The Creative Penn.

There are many options for book marketing, so how do you choose the right ones for you? I give my thoughts on the different polarities on the marketing scale to help you figure out what might work for your book, your stage on the author journey, and your lifestyle. In the intro, Storybundle for writers; […] The post Different Ways To Market Your Book With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What mindset shift do you need if you want to sell direct? How can you use Meta and AI tools to amplify your marketing? Matt Holmes gives his tips as well as insights from running my ads for my store, JFPennBooks.com. In the intro, how to sell more books at live events [BookBub]; Future of […] The post Tips For Selling And Marketing Direct Using Meta Ads With Matthew J Holmes first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you use insights from the Enneagram to help you with a sustainable author career? How can you get past your blocks and move towards success, whatever that means for you? Claire Taylor provides her insights. In the intro, will TikTok be banned in the USA, and how will this impact authors and publishing? […] The post Insights On The Enneagram And Sustain Your Author Career With Claire Taylor first appeared on The Creative Penn.

There are more options for publishing and reaching readers than ever before, and the indie author business models are splintering and diverging, so how do we know which path to follow? How do we deal with the changes due to generative AI, and how do we manage the grief and anxiety about these shifts? Becca […] The post Dealing With Change And How To Build Resilience As An Author With Becca Syme first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you create more beautiful print books — and make more money with your products by selling direct? Alex Smith explains how BookVault can help with various options as well as helpful resources. In the intro, audiobooks and AI [Frankfurt Bookmesse]; Artificial Intelligence, Blockchain, and Virtual Worlds by Joanna Penn; Google’s woke AI Gemini […] The post How To Create Beautiful Print Books And Sell Direct With Alex Smith From Bookvault first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you write a memoir that is emotionally honest and revealing enough for readers to care, and cope with the inevitable fear of judgment that evokes? How can you write about real places and people in memoir? Why is editing a memoir so challenging and what should you keep in mind around publishing and […] The post Tips On Writing Memoir With J.F. Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can we focus on the joy of the writing process itself, rather than the outcome? How can we embrace the positive side of being jealous of the success of other writers? How can we deepen our writing with metaphor and sense of place? Co-authors of writing book, Millions of Suns, Sharon and Christine share […] The post The Hard Joy Of Writing With Sharon Fagan McDermott and M.C. Benner Dixon first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you pick yourself, rather than wait for someone else to pick you? How can you take control of your independent career and bring your creative vision to life? Jeffrey Crane Graham talks about his experience as an indie filmmaker, with lots of tips for indie authors. In the intro, 6 Types of Submission […] The post Writing And Producing A Micro-Budget Film With Jeffrey Crane Graham first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do you find the story behind all your stories? Who are you at the heart of your books? Isabelle Knight talks about the importance of author brand in an age of limitless content, and gives tips on how to discover yours. In the intro, 20 new miniature books added to Queen Mary’s Dollhouse [BBC]; […] The post Your Author Brand With Isabelle Knight first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the benefits — and the challenges — of crowdfunding on Kickstarter? How can you fund successfully, as well as make a profit with your campaign? Paddy Finn gives his tips. In the intro, you can find more selling direct resources here; Streaming due for a streamlining [FT]; Authors Guild explores AI licensing deal […] The post How To Be Successful On Kickstarter With Paddy Finn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

I really enjoyed this laid-back discussion around AI tools as part of the creative book cover design process with James Helps from Go On Write. We discuss how generative AI tools can help make more unique and interesting cover designs, and how designers can have a more imaginative time making them. This episode is supported […] The post A Creative Approach To Generative AI In Book Cover Design With James Helps first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the benefits and challenges of selling direct? How can you use limited edition merchandise to add more value to retailers and make more money on a launch? Alex Kava talks about her author business. In the intro, award-winning Japanese writer, Rie Kudan, used ChatGPT to write parts of her prize-winning novel and judges […] The post Direct Sales And Merchandising For Authors With Alex Kava first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can we move past our fears to write the books that mean the most to us? How can we write unique and compelling characters that keep readers coming back for more in a series? Barbara Nickless talks about mindset and writing craft in this wide-ranging interview. In the intro, Planning for a Creative 2024 […] The post Facing Fears, And Writing Unique Characters With Barbara Nickless first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Wherever you are on the author journey, there are some important questions to consider along the way. Joe Solari outlines a strategic step forward for new authors, midlist indies, and those with ambitious financial goals. Plus, what is Author Nation? In the intro, Top 10 trends for publishing [Written Word Media]; Indie author predictions for […] The post The Next Strategic Step On Your Author Journey And Author Nation With Joe Solari first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Happy New Year 2024! I love January and the opportunity to start afresh. I know it’s arbitrary in some ways, but I measure my life by what I create, and I measure it in years. At the end of each year, I make a photobook, and I publish an article here, which helps keep me […] The post My 2024 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn [Updated] first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Another year ends, and once more, it’s time to reflect on our creative goals. I hope you will take the time to review your goals and you’re welcome to leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? Let me know in the comments. In the intro, 2023 […] The post Review Of My 2023 Creative And Business Goals With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

In this episode, I reflect on 15 years of TheCreative Penn, and outline how I will reposition myself for the next 15 years of being an author entrepreneur. In the intro, We used to do that [Seth Godin]; Penguin Random House has acquired Hay House [Publishing Perspectives]; Business for Authors; Your Author Business Plan; OpenAI […] The post The 15-Year Author Business Pivot With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How will changes to the way people search impact book discoverability? What can authors and publishers do to ensure their books are still found in the new form of generative AI search? While it’s still early days for this technology, I share my thoughts in this article, with the hope that we can surf the […] The post How Generative AI Search Will Impact Book Discoverability In The Next Decade first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Do you want to publish an image-heavy book like a cookbook? How can you navigate the challenges of photography, book design, and publishing choices to make the best product possible? Jane Dixon-Smith shares her lessons learned from her first cookbook. In the intro, Brandon Sanderson’s predictions about publishing [Daniel Greene]; Craig Mod talks about walking […] The post Publishing A Cookery Photo Book With Jane Dixon-Smith first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How might subscriptions help expand your author business ecosystem? What are some tips on encouraging readers to buy direct? Why is the future looking positive for authors in the creator economy? Michael Evans gives his thoughts. In the intro, marketing for multi-genre authors [Self Publishing Advice]; Same as Ever: Timeless lessons on risk, opportunity, and […] The post Subscriptions And The Creator Economy With Michael Evans first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you transition into being an author after a long-term career elsewhere? How can you adopt an attitude of service in order to build your network in an authentic manner? Patrick O’Donnell shares his tips. In the intro, Spotify subscribers in the US now have 15 hours of free audiobook listening [The Verge] — […] The post Starting A Second Career As An Author And Networking Tips With Patrick O’Donnell first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you shift your mindset from catalog sales to selling direct? How can you reframe the direct author business model to take advantage of creative possibilities for different kinds of products and long-term marketing? Russell Nohelty gives his tips in this interview. In the intro, Top 10 tips for indie authors [Clare Lydon]; 10 […] The post The Mindset And Business Of Selling Books Direct With Russell Nohelty first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can using Pinterest more like a search engine help you sell more books? What are some of the ways to use Pinterest most effectively for book marketing? Trona Freeman gives her tips. In the intro, KDP announce an Invite-Only KDP Beta for Audiobooks; How to Double Down on Being Human: 5 Ways to Stand […] The post Pinterest For Book Marketing With Trona Freeman first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you reinvigorate your writing process, breathe life into your backlist, and prepare your author business for the rollercoaster that is publishing? Tracy Cooper-Posey gives her tips. In the intro, Authors Guild results [The Hotsheet]; more Promo Stacks with Written Word Media; Amazon’s robot [BBC]; Amazon’s generative image AI for products [Venture Beat]; Shutterstock’s […] The post Managing Your Author Business Over The Long Term With Tracy Cooper-Posey first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do you keep up with everything you need to do as your author business grows? How do you decide what to focus on as the industry changes — and you change, too? Patricia McLinn discusses her challenges with a big backlist of books and a mature indie author business. In the intro, Self-publishing’s ongoing […] The post Stop Trying To Do Everything With Patricia McLinn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What is soul of place or genius loci and how can you write it in a more immersive way in your books? How can you discover it closer to home, as well as write real settings more authentically, and invent it for your fiction? Linda Lappin gives some tips in this interview. In the intro, […] The post Writing The Soul Of Place With Linda Lappin first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you let your creative dark horse run? What is the Shadow — and why explore your Shadow side? This episode features excerpted chapters from the audiobook of Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words, written and narrated by Joanna Penn, available on Kickstarter until 25 October 2023: www.TheCreativePenn.com/shadowbook (link will redirect […] The post Let Your Dark Horse Run. Writing The Shadow With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you establish a creative routine that enables you to write the books you want to write without burning out? How can you balance a sustainable work ethic as an author as well as spending time away from the desk. LA Witt talks about her strategies. In the intro, Spotify introduces 15 hours of […] The post Writing Faster Without Burning Out With LA Witt first appeared on The Creative Penn.

As much as we try to plan for things, sometimes life happens and we have to adapt to a new situation. Jessie Kwak talks about adapting to life as a freelance writer and author after being injured, and her tips for managing work and energy. In the intro, I mention Accessibility for All, the interview […] The post Adapting To Change With Jessie Kwak first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you create a high-quality photo book and publish it on Kickstarter? How do you market a beautiful, high-value book? Jeremy Bassetti talks about his photo book project, Hill of the Skull. In the intro, Slow release book strategies [ALLi]; Seth Godin on how he is using ChatGPT; Consultants using AI worked faster and […] The post Writing And Publishing A High Quality Photo Book With Jeremy Bassetti first appeared on The Creative Penn.

In this solo episode, I talk about my lessons learned from 12 years as a full-time author entrepreneur. You can read/listen to previous updates at TheCreativePenn.com/timeline. In the intro, Finding readers [ALLi blog]; Writing the Shadow Kickstarter. Today’s show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. […] The post Lessons Learned from 12 Years as an Author Entrepreneur first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What’s the difference between an audio book and an audio drama? What are the steps to write a script and produce it? Joanne Phillips gives her tips. In the intro, Amazon KDP’s new AI content guidelines; AI at the heart of what Amazon does [The Verge]; Writing the Shadow Kickstarter; 1000 Libraries Kickstarter; Today’s show […] The post Writing And Producing Audio Drama With Joanne Phillips first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you expand the possibilities of book cover images with AI? What are some of the controversies and how can authors and designers work together with AI tools to create original design? Book cover designer Damon Freeman discusses his views. There are lots of links in the show notes below to specific resources, but […] The post Using AI Images In Your Book Cover Design Process With Damon Freeman first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How might thinking differently help you create clarity in our noisy world? How can you produce a high-quality print book — and successfully fund it on Kickstarter? Holger Nils Pohl discusses these things and more. In the intro, Copyright in an age of AI [Self Publishing Advice, Monica Leonelle, Ars Technica, The Verge, The Atlantic; […] The post Producing Visual, High Quality Books, Thinking Differently, and Kickstarter Lessons With Holger Nils Pohl first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you stop self-censoring your writing and share the deepest aspects of yourself with your readers? How can you break poetry out of the restraints that many try to put upon it? Stephanie Wytovich talks about these things and more. More on writing horror: How To Write Horror, tips, interviews and resources in one […] The post Writing Poetry In The Dark With Stephanie Wytovich first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you build an author business for the long term, and not just for the launch of one book? How do you ensure secure cash flow and profits, instead of focusing on short-term spike sales? Joe Solari discusses key aspects of your author business. In the intro, Kobo Plus expands to audiobooks in Australia […] The post Build A Successful Author Business For The Long Term With Joe Solari first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you create a book series that children love — and that you can expand into multiple streams of income? How can you offer a fantastic experience to schools — and get paid well for your time? Tonya Duncan Ellis gives her tips. In the intro, investment firm KKR will buy Simon & Schuster […] The post Publishing Books For Children And Profitable School Visits With Tonya Ellis first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can AI tools help authors who struggle with energy and time because of disability, chronic pain, health conditions, post-viral fatigue, or other unavoidable life issues? Steph Pajonas explains why AI is important for accessibility and more. Today’s show is sponsored by my wonderful patrons who fund my brain so I have time to think […] The post How AI Tools Are Useful For Writers With Disabilities And Health Issues With S.J. Pajonas first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you shift your mindset in order to reach more readers with your books? How can you leverage the tools available for authors to sell more copies? Ricci Wolman from Written Word Media gives her tips. In the intro, The Hotsheet useful newsletter; Book publishing is broken; In the US, the Federal Trade Commission […] The post The Marketing Mind Shift And The Power Of Ad Stacking With Ricci Wolman first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you write fast but also make your creative process sustainable for the long term? How can you collaborate effectively with other authors in your genre? Dan Willcocks talks about his creative and business approach. More on writing horror: How To Write Horror, tips, interviews and resources in one place. In the intro, Draft2Digital […] The post Writing Fast, Collaboration, And Author Mindset With Daniel Willcocks first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you use what you’re scared of to write better stories that resonate with readers? How can you acknowledge your shadow side and bring aspects of it into the light in a healthy way that serves you and your customers? More on writing horror: How To Write Horror, tips, interviews and resources in one […] The post Writing From Your Shadow Side With Michaelbrent Collings first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the pros and cons of traditional publishing vs self-publishing? How can you combine multiple options for a more creatively satisfying — and profitable — author career? Rachael Herron gives her tips. In the intro, Power Thesaurus and editing tips for audio; How Writers Fail — Kris Rusch; Finishing energy; Sidekick for Shopify; Shadow […] The post Your Publishing Options With Rachael Herron first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you exploit the unique in your stories, as well as amp up the conflict? John Gaspard gives writing and creative business tips based on movies and TV. In the intro, Meta launches Threads, the new Twitter-like app — you can follow me @jfpennauthor; Possible Podcast episode with Ethan Mollick; Moonshots and Mindsets podcast […] The post Writing Tips From The Movies With John Gaspard first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Four years ago, in July 2019, I put out a podcast episode that went through the 9 disruptions I saw coming for authors and publishing in the next decade. It turns out that most are happening faster than even I expected. In this episode, Nick Thacker and I discuss some of the main points. In […] The post 9 Ways That Artificial Intelligence (AI) Will Disrupt Authors And The Publishing Industry. An Update With Joanna Penn And Nick Thacker first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can fiction authors use Sudowrite to assist with writing tasks they need help with? What functionality does Sudowrite have that will be useful to different types of writers? Amit Gupta gives his tips in this interview. I use and recommend Sudowrite as part of my creative process. You can try Sudowrite through my affiliate […] The post Using Sudowrite For Writing Fiction With Amit Gupta first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you stand out in a crowded market of non-fiction books? How can you build a business around your central topic? How can you deal with failure to move on to success? Stephanie Chandler shares her experience and tips. In the intro, HarperCollins and KKR make bids for Simon & Schuster [The Hotsheet]; more […] The post The Craft And Business Of Writing Non-Fiction Books With Stephanie Chandler first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can Bookfunnel help authors reach more readers, sell more books, and sell direct? Damon Courtney outlines features of Bookfunnel that you might not know about. In the intro, Hello Books and Written Word Media have joined forces for promo stacking; Call to Action (CTA) tips [ALLi]; my free Author Blueprint; Bundle for writers [Storybundle]. […] The post How Authors Can Use Bookfunnel To Reach Readers And Sell Direct With Damon Courtney first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are some of the most effective ways to market your book? What strategies have remained the same despite the rise of new tactics? What are the best ways to reach a Christian audience? Thomas Umstattd Jr. gives plenty of tips in this interview. In the intro, Freedom, fame, or fortune — what do you […] The post Novel Marketing And Christian Publishing With Thomas Umstattd Jr. first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Memoir can be one of the most challenging forms to write, but it can also be the most rewarding. Marion Roach Smith talks about facing your fears, as well as giving practical tips on structuring and writing your memoir. In the intro, Amazon’s category changes [KDP Help; Kindlepreneur; Publisher Rocket]; Book description generation with AI; […] The post Writing Your Transcendent Change: Memoir With Marion Roach Smith first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the crucial linchpin moments in your novel and how can you keep a reader turning the pages? John Fox gives fiction writing tips in this interview. In the intro, writing and publishing across multiple genres [Ask ALLi]; Pilgrimage and solo walking [Women Who Walk]; My live webinars on using AI tools as an […] The post Crafting Your Novel’s Key Moments With John Matthew Fox first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can we write about places that inspire us in an authentic way even when they are not our own country? Tony Park gives his tips for writing setting, and also outlines how his publishing experience has changed over the last two decades. In the intro, KDP printing costs are changing from 20 June; plus, […] The post Writing Novels Inspired By Place With Tony Park first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are some of the common mental health issues that writers face? How can we use writing to help us process our problems, and turn our life into art through our books? Author and mental health therapist Toby Neal shares her thoughts and tips. It’s Mental Health Awareness Week here in the UK with a […] The post Making Art From Life. Mental Health For Writers With Toby Neal first appeared on The Creative Penn.

AI tools can generate words, but the human intention behind it, as well as the skill of the author, drives the machine. Stephen Marche talks about the creative process behind Death of an Author, 95% written by AI, out now from Pushkin Industries. Today’s show is sponsored by my wonderful patrons who fund my brain […] The post Intentionality, Beauty, and Authorship. Co-Writing With AI With Stephen Marche first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the implications of generative AI for the indie author community? How can we make choices for our own creative business while respecting the decisions of others? Dan Wood (Draft2Digital) and Michael Anderle (20BooksTo50K, LMBPN) and I discuss our recommendations for the way forward. In the intro, Ingram Spark offers free title setup and […] The post Generative AI And The Indie Author Community With Michael Anderle And Dan Wood first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What is the AI-Assisted Artisan Author? How can we use AI tools in our creative and business processes while still keeping our humanity at the core of our books? As generative AI development continues apace and new possibilities emerge every week, the focus of AI discussions in the author community has been centered around productivity […] The post The AI-Assisted Artisan Author With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can we build a creative life based on following our curiosity? What are some important attitudes to hold that will help us with a sustainable life and career? Kevin Kelly shares some Excellent Advice for Living. In the intro, author newsletter tips [BookBub]; Mark Dawson’s 20+ year writing journey; Thoughts on 20Books Seville and […] The post Excellent Advice For Living With Kevin Kelly first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can publicity form part of your book marketing strategy? How can you research the best media and craft a pitch or a press release that might get you and your book some attention? Why is publicity still useful in an age of pay-per-click direct advertising? Halima Khatun shares her valuable tips and experience. In […] The post Book Marketing: How To Get Publicity For Your Book With Halima Khatun first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the most important aspects of becoming a successful publisher? Jon Barton talks about his lessons learned and how to avoid the pitfalls. In the intro, Amazon AWS Bedrock for generative AI; Impromptu: Amplifying our Humanity Through AI by Reid Hoffman and co-written with GPT4; reflections on the fantastic 20BooksSpain Seville conference; Ideas and […] The post The Challenges Of Small Press Publishing With Jon Barton first appeared on The Creative Penn.

You cannot see many of the problems with your own writing, as you are so close to the manuscript. ProWritingAid can help you self-edit your work before you take it on to a human editor, so they can focus on the bigger issues. In this episode, Chris Banks, the CEO of ProWritingAid talks about how […] The post How To Use ProWritingAid To Improve Your Writing With Chris Banks first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can we bring a place alive in our writing? How can we tackle the challenges of writing different types of books at different times in our writing career? Merryn Glover talks about her experience in this episode. In the intro, Kobo launches Kobo Plus in the US and UK; Amazon is closing Book Depository; […] The post Writing Nature Memoir With Merryn Glover first appeared on The Creative Penn.

As generative AI tools continue to expand the possibilities for creators, what does this mean for aspects of copyright? Intellectual property lawyer, Kathryn Goldman, talks about the possible ramifications. In the intro, Ben’s Bites newsletter, Microsoft Co-Pilot for Office tools [The Verge]; Canva Create AI-powered design tools; Adobe Firefly for generative images; OpenAI ChatGPT Plugins […] The post Legal Aspects Of Generative AI And Copyright With Kathryn Goldman first appeared on The Creative Penn.

My Kickstarter campaign for my travel memoir, Pilgrimage, funded within minutes and raised over £26,000 (over US$31,000) for a niche book in a new market. In this episode, I share my lessons learned and tips for a successful campaign. In the intro, I mention the 6 Figure Author Podcast, The Writers Well Podcast, and Reid […] The post Lessons Learned And Tips From Pilgrimage, My First Kickstarter Campaign first appeared on The Creative Penn.

If you want a long-term successful career as an author, you need to learn the craft and the business of writing. Joseph Nassise talks about his writing process, how he diversifies his business across different publishers, different products, and different technologies, as well as how he is embracing new options for his books. In the […] The post Prolific Writing, Diversification, And Using Emerging Technologies With Joseph Nassise first appeared on The Creative Penn.

We all use tools to help us improve our skills, and in this episode, Leanne Leeds explains how she uses the generative AI tool, Sudowrite, to write better books and serve her readership more effectively. In the intro, OpenAI launches GPT4, and how it can be used for accessibility with Be My Eyes. Other tools […] The post Writing Fiction With Sudowrite With Leanne Leeds first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Writers and readers are a diverse bunch, and we all want to do our best to make sure our content is accessible to all. But how do we do that when it seems like a huge (and time-consuming) challenge for an individual creator? Jeff Adams gives some tips for getting started. In the intro, making […] The post Content For Everyone: Accessibility For Authors With Jeff Adams first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the core fundamentals of a successful independent author business? How can you focus on writing, as well as sell more books, and stay healthy? Prolific fantasy author Lindsay Buroker shares her tips. In the intro, YouTube gets into audio-only podcasts; Seth Godin’s book marketing for The Song of Significance; How to make more […] The post Writing And Investing For A Long Term Indie Author Career With Lindsay Buroker first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Write and publish what you want, get paid every day for your books, and control your customer data and relationships. It’s possible if you sell direct, as Pierre Jeanty talks about in this interview. In the intro, the author income survey [ALLi]; publishing clauses to avoid [Writer Unboxed; Writer Beware]; copyright registration for AI-assisted comic […] The post How To Build A Seven Figure Book Business Selling Direct To Readers With Pierre Jeanty first appeared on The Creative Penn.

After many years of people saying, “AI can never be creative, AI could never write fiction (i.e. make things up), it’s now evident that the generative AI tools make a lot up — and we need to be aware of the potential ramifications. How can we use the tools to achieve our creative purpose in […] The post The Tsunami Of Crap, Misinformation, And Responsible Use Of AI With Tim Boucher first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you create a universe big enough for multiple series? How can you co-write successfully? How can you pivot your business model to achieve your creative, financial, and lifestyle goals? Martha Carr talks about these things and more. In the intro, Simon & Schuster is back up for sale [Reuters, Episode 662 with Jane […] The post Co-Writing In A Shared Universe And Changing Indie Business Models With Martha Carr first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you embrace book marketing as a creative part of your author business? How can you effectively market your backlist over time? How can you tap into ambition and drive your author business onward and upward? Honoree Corder talks about all this and more. In the intro, Draft2Digital add a new library marketplace [D2D]; […] The post Book Marketing Mindset, Ideas, And Ambition With Honoree Corder first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Who are the Choctaw people and how can authors write authentic Native Americans in their books? How can we research diverse characters and include a diverse cast without worrying about cancel culture? Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer talks about how her Choctaw heritage influences her books. In the intro, the Pilgrimage Kickstarter is done — thanks to […] The post Writing Choctaw Characters And Diversity In Fiction With Sarah Elisabeth Sawyer first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the benefits of selling direct? Why might using your face to advertise your books be a good idea? What might be the future of selling direct? Steve Pieper talks about these things and more. In the intro, ACX lowering audiobook prices, Chokepoint Capitalism, Audiblegate, Copyright valuation [Dean Wesley Smith]; courses on copyright; Happy […] The post The Empowerment Of Selling Books Direct To Your Readers With Steve Pieper first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What do you need to consider when writing travel memoir? How fear of judgment and fear of failure are real issues even for established authors, and more in these selected excerpts from interviews with J.F. Penn around Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways. In this episode, I talk about: I have a […] The post Writing Travel Memoir, Fear Of Judgment, Fear Of Failure, And Journaling With J.F. Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you use AI tools to ethically and responsibly create in whatever sphere you love? What are some of the tools and why are creative direction, voice, and taste, so important? I discuss these issues and more in a solo introduction and an interview with Oliver Altair. In the first 28 mins of the […] The post The Importance Of Confident Creative Direction, Voice, And Taste, In Generative AI Art With Oliver Altair first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can small, daily habits make you more successful as an author? How can you use the 80/20 rule in your author business? How can you create multiple streams of income when you sell mostly print? Marc Reklau shares his tips in the interview. In the intro, my Kickstarter for Pilgrimage is live!; Spotify’s promotion […] The post Multi-Six Figure Book Sales And The Power Of Daily Habits With Marc Reklau first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Do you sometimes just ‘know’ when a story is right? Does something ‘click’ during the writing process and suddenly things make sense? Do you lean into your curiosity and emotion when it comes to writing and marketing? If yes, you might be an intuitive writer, as Becca Syme explains in this interview. In the intro, […] The post Intuitive Writing And Book Marketing With Becca Syme first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the most common reasons why writers don’t finish their books —and how can you overcome them in order to finish yours this year? Roz Morris gives practical writing and mindset tips. In the intro, Spotify promo codes [FindawayVoices]; Rachael Herron’s money episode [How Do You Write?]; Changes at Amazon [Kris Writes, BBC]; AI […] The post How To (Finally) Finish Your Book With Roz Morris first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you use paid advertising as part of your book marketing strategy? How can you reach more readers and sell more books in the year ahead? Mark Dawson provides strategies and tips in this interview. In the intro, publishing trends for 2023 [Written Word Media]; Apple AI narration; ChatGPT into Bing [The Verge]; Comments […] The post How To Use Paid Advertising As Part Of Your Book Marketing With Mark Dawson first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Happy New Year 2023! I am more excited than ever this year about the books I want to write and publish. I’ve had a difficult few years (haven’t we all?!) but now I’m ready to create at full throttle in 2023, aided by the incredible AI-powered tools emerging for writers. Here’s an overview of my […] The post My 2023 Creative and Business Goals With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Another year ends, and once more, it’s time to reflect on our creative goals. I hope you will take the time to review your goals, and leave a comment below about how the year went. Did you achieve everything you wanted to? You can read my 2022 goals here and I reflect on what I […] The post Review Of My 2022 Creative Business Goals first appeared on The Creative Penn.

“If you just keep writing/querying/marketing/etc you will eventually be successful. Just don’t give up.” We’ve all heard a variation of this, but what if it isn’t true? When is quitting worthwhile? Joanna Penn and Orna Ross discuss Quit: The Power of Knowing When To Walk Away by Annie Duke and give examples of what they […] The post What Do You Need To Quit? With Joanna Penn And Orna Ross first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What has changed in the publishing industry over the last few years? What can authors learn from the DOJ vs PRH court case? How can mid-list authors thrive in uncertain times? Jane Friedman talks about these things and more. In the intro, USA Today list is on indefinite hiatus [US News]; Paid for bestseller list; […] The post Changes In Publishing With Jane Friedman first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Why might a first-time author choose to independently publish? Barnaby Jameson talks about his experience with his first historical novel, and why valuing intellectual property is critical for authors to understand. Plus tips for self-publishing and marketing. In the intro, Draft2Digital distributing to Smashwords store [D2D], expansion of Google Play Books auto-narration into more countries, […] The post Choosing Your Route To Publication With Barnaby Jameson first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can authors use generative AI as a co-writing tool? How can creatives approach AI possibilities with curiosity rather than fear? Charlene Putney talks about writing with LAIKA. In the intro, ChatGPT, thoughts on the GitHub Co-Pilot case [WIRED]; and why digital abundance is an opportunity for curious creatives, not a threat. I also mention […] The post Co-writing Fiction With Generative AI With Charlene Putney first appeared on The Creative Penn.

If you’re not making the money you expected from your books, how can you pivot genres in order to write what you enjoy AND make a living? How can you change your mindset to one of creative abundance and productivity? Dan Padavona talks about these topics and more. In the intro, publishing year in review […] The post Pivoting Genres And Mindset Tips For Success With Dan Padavona first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What is genre, and how can transcending it improve your fiction? How can you effectively write cross genre? John Truby gives an overview of the Anatomy of Genres. If you’re working on genre and story structure, my book How To Write A Novel goes deeper on both. In the intro, the PRH acquisition of S&S […] The post Writing Tips: The Anatomy Of Genres With John Truby first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can we shift our mindset to thinking about a long-term creative career? What can we do now that will make our future selves happy? Dorie Clark gives some ideas for playing the long game. In the intro, sell books directly on TikTok Shop [The Guardian]; Plan for author success in 2023 [K-lytics webinar, 1 […] The post The Long Game With Dorie Clark first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can generative AI tools augment and amplify your creativity? How can digital originals/collectibles (NFTs) add value to authors and readers? In the intro, my solo episode on Creativity, Collaboration, Community, and Cash: NFTs for Authors (also in video); Midjourney v4 [Ars Technica]; Deviant Art launches their own generative AI tool [Engadget]; Rumors of GPT-4 […] The post Using Generative AI For Digital Collectibles And NFTs With J. Thorn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you find the intersection between what the market wants and what you love to read? How can you strategically seed book sales to improve your marketing? Rachel McLean talks about her 5 steps to indie author success. In the intro, how to predict and profit from publishing trends [ALLi blog]; my live, in-person […] The post 5 Steps To Author Success With Rachel McLean first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are some of the fundamentals behind self-publishing success? James Blatch shares tips and insights. James Blatch is a historical military thriller author. He’s also the co-founder of Self-Publishing Formula, Fuse Books, Hello Books, and the co-host of The Self-Publishing Show.  You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are […] The post Self-Publishing LaunchPad With James Blatch first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you create an ecosystem of children’s books around a central idea? How can you market books for children? Ada-Ari talks about how she writes, publishes and markets her children’s books based on African folk tales and African languages in the USA. In the intro, Court blocks the PRH S&S merger [PublishersWeekly]; Spoken Word […] The post Writing And Marketing Diverse Books For Children With Ada-Ari first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are tropes and how can you use them to strengthen your fiction? What are some examples of horror tropes, in particular? With Jennifer Hilt. In the intro, Why book sales are down and what to do about it [6 Figure Authors]; Undisruptible: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention for Individuals, Organisations, and Life by Aidan […] The post Using Tropes To Strengthen Your Fiction With Jennifer Hilt first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What do you need in the beginning of your novel so your reader buys your book? Shane Millar shares tips for writing brilliant beginnings, regardless of your genre. In the intro, trends in what publishers want at Frankfurt Book Fair [Publishing Perspectives] Adobe incorporating AI-generation alongside a Content Authenticity Initiative [Adobe blog]; Bertelsmann-owned venture capital […] The post Writing Beginnings with Shane Millar first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How does curiosity fuel creativity? How can we balance consumption and creation in an ever-busier digital life? How can you break out of the myth of the ‘starving artist’? Maria Brito talks about How Creativity Rules the World. In the intro, insights into Colleen Hoover’s popularity [NY Times]; Amazon bugs [Kindlepreneur]; Ingram invests in Book.io […] The post How Creativity Rules the World With Maria Brito first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Generative art tools like DALL-E, Midjourney, and Stable Diffusion are taking AI art into the mainstream. What are the opportunities for authors? What are the problems and controversies to be aware of? I talk about these issues and more with Derek Murphy. In the intro, I mention my J.F. Penn NFTs with AI-generated art based […] The post Using AI For Art, Images, And Book Covers With Derek Murphy first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can we accept imperfection as writers while still striving for excellence? How can we make space for going deeper into our writing while managing a busy life? Beth Kempton talks about The Way of the Fearless Writer in this wide-ranging interview on the creative mindset. In the intro, when life throws a curveball and […] The post The Way Of The Fearless Writer With Beth Kempton first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Traditional publishing is not a monolithic thing. There are different kinds of publishers, and authors want different things out of a publishing deal and relationship. Georgina Cross talks about her experience with two different traditional publishers and the pros and cons of each. In the intro, new e-reading devices, Kobo Clara 2E and Kindle Scribe; […] The post Different Traditional Publishing Experiences With Georgina Cross first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Every fiction author will (eventually) find their own method for writing but all fall somewhere on the spectrum between outlining/plotting and discovery writing/pantsing/writing into the dark. In this excerpt from How To Write a Novel, I share two chapters on the topic from the audiobook, narrated by me (Joanna Penn). You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show notes: The benefits and difficulties of outlining How to outline and examples from authors who use this method The benefits and difficulties of discovery writing (and why I hate the term pantsing!) Examples of authors who discovery write My writing process: Discovery writing with a hint of plotting Links to books and resources that might help you This is an excerpt from my audiobook of How to Write a Novel, narrated by me. If you'd like more on How To Write a Novel: From Idea to Book, you can buy in multiple formats directly from me here, and you can find it on your favorite online store, order from your local independent bookstore, or borrow from your library (just ask your librarian to order it). Outlining (or plotting) “Outlining is the most efficient way to structure a novel to achieve the greatest emotional impact… Outlining lets you create a framework that compels your audience to keep reading from the first page to the last.” — Jeffery Deaver, Wall St Journal Writers who outline or plot spend more time upfront considering aspects of the novel and know how the story will progress before they start writing the manuscript. It’s a spectrum, with some outlines consisting of a page or so and others stretching to thousands of words of preparation. The benefits of outlining While discovery writers jump into writing and spend more time later cleaning up their drafts, outliners or plotters spend time beforehand so they can write faster in the first draft. When it’s time to write, outliners focus on writing words on the page to fulfil their vision rather than figuring out what’s going on. Outlining can result in more intricate plots and twists, deeper characters, less time rewriting, and faster production time. If you co-write, outlining is the only way to ensure your process works smoothly. As a discovery writer, I have found it particularly challenging to co-write fiction, which is why I rarely do it! If you have an agent or a publisher, or you want an agent or a publisher, you might have to write an outline anyway, so learning how to do it well can help. If you’re a discovery writer, you can always outline after the book is finished, if you need to. “When you plan a story the right way, you guarantee a tight, compelling structure that keeps readers turning pages and delivers a satisfying reading experience from start to finish. And really, a satisfied reader is all you need for a ‘good’ book.” —Libbie Hawker, Take Off Your Pants! Outline Your Books for Faster, Better Writing The difficulties of outlining Outlining and plotting suit some writers very well. But not all. Some authors get lost in outlining and plotting and world-building and character bios and theme exploration and symbolism… and never actually write full sentences and may never finish a book. Such writers may go astray through a combination of procrastination through preparation, a delight in the learning process without a desire to do the work to turn it into a story, or perhaps fear of what might happen if they do write. Some authors outline a book and then decide it’s too boring to write it and never finish. Some authors become so obsessed with the technicalities of outlining that they decide writing is too hard, so they give up. Other writers try outlining only to find it is no fun at all. If you can do it, brilliant! If you can’t, don’t worry. See the next chapter on discovery writing. How to outline “Every hour spent outlining prior to starting a novel saves you many hours in the actual writing process. It also helps you to write a better novel, as you will ‘tighten’ down the story in your outline before you write, rather than having to do it in rewrite.” —Bob Mayer, The Novel Writer’s Toolkit There is no single way to outline, but options include a text document, a spreadsheet, mind maps, and/or Scrivener or other software. Outlines can also vary in length and complexity. Shawn Coyne describes the Foolscap Method in The Story Grid, where an entire book can be outlined on one A4 page with just a few lines describing the beginning, middle, and end of the story. [Interview with Shawn on The Story Grid here.] You could expand this brief outline into a document of a few pages by describing the main action points and characters of each scene in a couple of lines or a paragraph. This is often what agents and publishers mean by an outline. At the more extreme end of the plotting spectrum, thriller author Jeffery Deaver creates a lengthy outline for his thrillers. As he said in a Wall Street Journal interview in 2012, “The finished outline runs about 150 pages, single spaced, though with very wide right margins, so I can jot references to the research material relevant to the plot.” James Patterson outlines his books and uses the process to complicate his plots and come up with twists that surprise readers. Patterson is a prolific story machine and works with co-writers to expand his story worlds. Whatever you think of his books, he is the highest-earning and bestselling author in the world. I highly recommend his MasterClass online course, in which he goes into detail about his process. In the MasterClass, Patterson says, “I’m a fanatic about outlining. It’s going to make whatever you’re writing better. You’ll have fewer false starts and you’ll take a shorter amount of time. I write them over and over again. You read my outline and it’s like reading a book. You really get the story even though it’s condensed. Each chapter will have about a paragraph devoted to it, but you’re going to get the scene and you’re going to get the sense of what makes the scene work… The ending almost always changes in the writing, though, it’s because I learned to listen to the characters.” Some writers use paper index cards for plotting scenes and characters. Lauren Beukes used a wall of index cards to physically plot the details for her award-winning thriller The Shining Girls, later adapted for TV. It is a time travel thriller, so the plot lines and characters needed to be interwoven in multiple ways. If you don’t want to use paper, you can use plotting software like Scrivener, Plottr, Granthika, or other tools to create electronic versions of index cards that you can drag and drop into a different order as you need to. J.K. Rowling outlined the Harry Potter series with hand-drawn matrices tracking the characters against the plot and timeline. Prolific thriller author Russell Blake uses a spreadsheet with chapter numbers down the left, character names across the top, and a few sentences in each cell. “I will typically capture the whys of the chapter, meaning the motivation for writing it. To make it into my final outline, it will need to either reveal something about the characters or the plot, or move the story forward. If I can’t articulate to myself the purpose of the chapter in that manner, I cut it.” You can include whatever you like in your outline and it can be as long as you want it to be. Outliners often change things as they write, so don’t feel that the outline is a constraint on your creativity. It’s just a tool to help you write your book in whatever way works for you. “A good outline should be a spur for creativity, not a stumbling block. The author is the master of the outline, not its slave.” —K.M. Weiland, Outlining Your Novel Outlining a series If you have a series in mind, particularly if there is a clear character arc and a final ending, then it can be a good idea to outline more than one book at the same time so you know where the series is going, even if it’s just a few lines. However, remember to write the book at some point. Don’t spend forever outlining! Questions: What are the benefits of outlining? What are the potential difficulties? Are you excited about the prospect of outlining? Or is it something you feel like you ‘should’ do? Which methods of outlining might work best for you? How much time do you want to spend outlining before you move on to writing? Discovery writing (or pantsing) “If you surrender to the wind, you can ride it.” —Toni Morrison, Song of Solomon The word ‘pantsing’ comes from the term ‘fly by the seat of your pants,’ and essentially means that you write what comes into your head and work out the story along the way. For some people, this means literally starting from the first sentence of the first page and writing until the story is done. For others, it involves writing out of order and stitching the story together later, which is my approach. Let’s first address the term ‘pantsing,’ which is frankly terrible! It’s based on the American word ‘pants,’ meaning trousers, but I’m British, and pants are underwear. I much prefer the term ‘discovery writing,’ so that’s what I’ll use and perhaps together we can get rid of the term ‘pantsing’ altogether. The benefits of discovery writing It’s so much fun! Many discovery writers feel as if knowing what happens or planning it all in advance makes the writing process boring, but if you don’t know what will happen next in your story, the writing process has the intensity and excitement of discovery. This can make the finished product just as interesting for the reader as it was for you in the writing process. I also find these extraordinary moments of synchronicity happen when I discovery write and research as I go. They happen during the writing of every book, although I can’t force them to happen. There’s a moment where the story clicks, it all suddenly makes sense, and things that I invented cross over into the real world in unexpected ways. That feeling makes the creative potential of the discovery process almost addictive. You need to have a certain amount of trust in your innate story sense, but that is also part of the enjoyment. We have all read so many books and watched so many movies and TV shows that we have a deep understanding of story as human beings. There’s a sense of ‘knowing’ how a story works, and in discovery writing, it’s about leaning into this feeling. Trust that your subconscious story brain will give you what you need along the way. “Writing with intentional plot structure is not necessary for the story to be compelling.” —Becca Syme & Susan Bischoff, Dear Writer, Are You Intuitive? The difficulties of discovery writing If you don’t know how the story will work, you can end up writing yourself into a corner. Many discovery writers discard words, scenes, characters, and plot points later. Some may have to redraft altogether to make a story work. Some consider that a ‘waste,’ but it’s just part of the discovery process. You will also face the blank page regularly in your writing sessions, as you might not always know what to write next. Dean Wesley Smith addresses this in Writing into The Dark:  “Getting stuck is part of writing into the dark. It is… a natural part of the process of a creative voice building a story. Embrace the uncertainty of being stuck, trust your creative voice, give it a few moments’ rest, and then come back and write the next sentence.” Reframe the blank page as the promise of unlimited possibility, rather than the fear of the unknown. How to discovery write “Story emerges from human minds as naturally as breath emerges from between human lips. You don’t have to be a genius to master it. You’re already doing it.” —Will Storr, The Science of Storytelling Write a sentence. Then another one. Then another one. Repeat until done for the writing session. You don’t have to tell the story in a linear fashion. You can jump around and write what the Muse wants to write and piece it all together later. That’s how it works for me. I never write in order. When you sit down to discovery write, you need to trust that something will emerge from you somehow, even if it feels like you have nothing when you face the blank page. Of course, you must learn the craft. There must be an element of understanding the principles of story. But there is also something ineffable, something unexplainable, something magic that happens when you trust the discovery process. You may not even realize what is in your mind until it spills out onto the page. As poet Ben Okri said, we are “magnificent and mysterious beings capable of creating civilisations out of the wild lands of the earth and the dark places in our consciousness.” As Walt Whitman said, “I am large, I contain multitudes.” You can do this. Trust emergence. Authors who are discovery writers Lee Child used to start writing his next Jack Reacher thriller on 1 September each year and continue writing until the book was done (before he handed the franchise over to his brother in 2020).  In an interview with Marie Claire magazine, he said, “I just start somewhere, somewhere that feels good, and then literally think ‘Alright now what happens?’ So a million times in the process it’s a question of ‘Alright now what happens?’ and so the story tells itself.” I’m a Jack Reacher fan and the storylines are linear and work well for this kind of writing style. Reacher arrives in a town, something bad happens, he must find and punish the bad guys, and there’s some fighting and (occasionally) some loving along the way. There is a clear protagonist, and the story unfolds in real time as Reacher experiences it. But not everyone writes such a linear story and you certainly don’t have to. Stephen King is a discovery writer and his books are usually sprawling stories with many characters, multiple points of view, and often a complicated plot.  In On Writing, he talks about starting with a character in a situation and writing from there. “Stories are found things, like fossils in the ground,” which must be uncovered through the writing process. King does multiple drafts and revisions to deepen the story, but his first draft is all discovery. He says, “I believe plotting and the spontaneity of real creation aren’t compatible.” Tess Gerritsen talks about her discovery process in an article on her blog:  “Since I don’t outline ahead of time, I don’t always know the solution to the mystery. So I’ll wander in the wilderness along with my characters until I get about two-thirds of the way through and I’ll be forced to find answers. And then I can finally write to the end… I don’t stop to revise during the first draft. Because it’s all going to be changed anyway, when I finally figure out what the book is about.” Nora Roberts says in a blog post about her method:  “The first draft, the discovery draft, the POS (guess what that stands for) draft is the hardest for me. Figuring it all out, creating people I’m going to care about enough to sit here with for hours every day in order to tell their story. Finding out information about the setting, the careers involved, and so much more. I don’t outline. I have a kind of loose mental outline, then I sit down, get started and hope it all works one more time.” Dean Wesley Smith has written several hundred novels and shares his process in Writing into the Dark: How to Write a Novel Without an Outline. He talks about ‘cycling,’ where he writes a scene and then cycles back to read through it and make changes as necessary every time he sits down to write. He might deepen the character or add to the plot, or make other changes. Sometimes he might find a plot issue and have to cycle back further, but when he finishes the first full draft, the book is done. He has a proofreader check it and then publishes. My process: Discovery writing with a touch of plotting I have tried so many times to become an outliner. I’ve read all the books on structure and plotting and done lots of courses, but my Muse just won’t comply. It frankly makes me miserable to try and outline in any detail. My creative brain just doesn’t work that way. It sucks the joy out of the writing process — and what’s the point in that?! I have written and published many novels (as J.F. Penn) at this point, so clearly my process works, even if it doesn’t fit neatly into the way many others say we ‘should’ write. This is how I discovery write. I have various ideas mulling around in my head for a long time before I start a book. They might be ideas about a character, a setting, a story question, a theme I want to explore, or a MacGuffin — an object of a quest (all of which I’ll cover later, in Part 3). I have a folder on my computer in my J.F. Penn drive with sub-folders labelled with broad-brush working titles. Most of the folders are empty, but they are placeholders for the Muse.  As I write this, I have sixteen folders in my To Write list, but they are pretty nebulous. For example, Volcano Botanist Adventure, and French Gothic Stonemason. I have vague ideas about what these stories might be some day, but they take years to emerge. I move the folders up and down depending on how I’m feeling about what I might write next. At some point, I settle on the story I need to write. That decision is driven by an urging from the Muse, or something external that triggers the choice, like a research trip where a story piece clicks into place. I don’t write to a production schedule for my fiction and I have spectacularly failed to plan when my books might come out. I am incredibly organized in my nonfiction side as Joanna Penn and in my business, but my fiction self — my J.F. Penn side — cannot be constrained. This is why I don’t do long pre-orders on my fiction. I only ever put a pre-order up when the book is with my editor, as then I know the timeline for publication. I’ll spend some time researching and, at the point of committing to a book, I usually have at least a character idea and sometimes a name, a setting for the opening scene, and ideas for what the plot might be about. But most of the time, I haven’t written any of it down. Sometimes, I draw a simple mind map in my journal. Sometimes I have the equivalent of an A4 piece of paper with thoughts, but it’s all pretty free-flowing. I open a new Scrivener project and add some placeholders for scenes. These are just one liners. For example, in Destroyer of Worlds, my first place-holder line was: ‘Trafalgar Square bomb, something stolen from the ARKANE vault.’ I didn’t know what was stolen, but that emerged once I sat down to write. [You can watch my tutorial on how I use Scrivener here.] I schedule first-draft blocks of time in my calendar. I turn up at my desk or the writing café or wherever I’m working and I write. I don’t write in order. I write whatever scene comes to mind that day, or whatever is suggested as the next scene based on what I have already written. I might follow one character for a few scenes and then go back and write another timeline later. I add more placeholder one-liners as the plot emerges. I research before I begin, but I also research as I write. For example, when writing a scene set in Cologne Cathedral for Tomb of Relics, I had the cathedral interactive site open so I could write as if I was actually there. I also check aspects of plot as I type. Yes, sometimes I end up down a rabbit hole during the draft, but that’s okay too, because there’s gold in the research process for a discovery writer! I don’t do character profiles. My characters emerge from the discovery writing process. I’ll often write a scene to expand on character motivations and back story later in the process, but then insert it earlier in the story. This is why I love writing in Scrivener. I can drag and drop and reorder my scenes as I go. When I get to around 20,000 words of a full-length novel, I often lose track of what’s going on with the different threads of the story. I usually stop and reread what I have so far, noting down open questions, character issues, plot holes, and anything else.  This process helps me figure out what else needs to happen, and I can usually write to the end after this reread. I can also use dictation at this point in the process as I know more about what’s going on, but it doesn’t usually work for me earlier in the discovery process, as I only know what I will write as I type. My first self-edit is when I structure scenes into chapters and find what I need to cut and add — often that leads to a major reorganization of the material. It’s all part of the discovery process. * * * There are as many different ways of writing as there are writers, but we all end up with a finished book regardless of how we get there. You have to find the process that works for you. Questions: What are the benefits of discovery writing? What are the potential difficulties? Are you excited about the prospect of discovery writing? Does the empty page scare you or represent unlimited possibility? How do you think discovery writing might fit into your process? If you'd like more on How To Write a Novel: From Idea to Book, you can buy in multiple formats directly from me here, and you can find it on your favorite online store, order from your local independent bookstore, or borrow from your library (just ask your librarian to order it). The post Writing Tips: Outlining/Plotting Vs Discovery Writing/Pantsing first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you adapt your novel into a comic or graphic form? What are the different types? How does a creative career develop over the long term and when do you need to take a step back to consider how to move forward? Barry Nugent talks about all this and more. In the intro, Amazon […] The post Transmedia And Publishing Comics And Graphic Novels With Barry Nugent first appeared on The Creative Penn.

In this solo episode, I talk about my lessons learned from 11 years as a full-time author entrepreneur, and why I am (finally) taking some time off. In the intro, Soldiers of God short story, The Creator Economy for Authors course (use coupon SUMMER22 for 30% off), Science Fiction Writing online conference, Author Tech Summit; […] The post Lessons Learned From 11 Years As An Author Entrepreneur first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you make sure your heirs and successors are able to manage your books and copyright licensing after your death? What aspects do you need to think about in terms of your author estate? Michael La Ronn explains this important topic in clear terms. In the intro, more quotes from the DOJ vs PRH […] The post Estate Planning For Authors With Michael La Ronn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What is auto-narration of audiobooks and how can it benefit authors and rights-holders as well as listeners? What are some of the common objections to auto-narration and how can we keep a positive attitude to embracing change? Ryan Dingler from Google Play Books goes into detail on these questions and more. You can also listen […] The post Auto-Narrated Audiobooks With Ryan Dingler From Google Play Books first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you intensify the conflict in your books to hook readers? How can you introduce different types and layers of conflict to improve your story? Becca Puglisi explains why and how to write conflict. In the intro, thoughts on the DOJ vs PRH trial [Twitter @JohnHMaher] and Publishers Weekly round-up; my thoughts on subscription […] The post Writing Conflict With Becca Puglisi first appeared on The Creative Penn.

In July 2022, I launched my online shop at www.CreativePennBooks.com. It’s built on Shopify’s eCommerce platform, and in this solo episode, I’ll explain why I built the store, my lessons learned, tips if you want to build your own, and how I intend to expand it over time.  This episode is sponsored by my wonderful patrons. If you find the podcast useful, you can support the show at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn and you'll get discounts on my books and products, plus you can ask your questions in my private monthly Q&A. Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling thriller author as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What is selling direct? Why sell direct?Why I switched from Payhip to ShopifyWhy a separate store, www.CreativePennBooks.com instead of WooCommerce within my existing sites?Why Shopify rather than Kickstarter?The Minimum Viable Store approachSoftware and integrations — what else do you need? Options for drop-shipping print-on-demand books — Lulu Direct and Bookvault.app and why I made the choice I did How does the money work? What are the costs? How do I get paid?What about sales tax / VAT?How long does the setup take? What about support issues? How time-consuming is it?What about marketing? How do you get traffic to your store?What are my plans for the store?Are direct sales for you?Free books if you buy direct — and where to find help if you need it You can find my store at www.CreativePennBooks.com and linked in the menu as Shop and also on every book page. Imagine this…  You write what you want, with no concern about how an algorithm will treat your release. You’re in control of the site and your sales pages, with no other ads on your page to distract potential readers. You release your books in multiple formats, direct to your readers and listeners. You don’t have to store and ship books since they are printed on demand and sent straight to the buyer. Customer service for ebooks and audiobooks is even taken care of by the wonderful team at Bookfunnel. The customer receives a fantastic product and you get money in your bank account within a day or two, or even within the hour.  You also get the customer’s name, email, and address as well as details about what they bought and when, so you can foster an ongoing relationship. You can expand your store into different kinds of products through other print-on-demand services — merchandise related to your books, other formats like workbooks, journals, and special editions, online courses, audio extras, coaching, or whatever else you want to sell.  Over time, you build up traffic to your store, and that effort compounds, so you start to make sales every day on a site you control. You still publish on other platforms and third-party stores, but now you’re truly an independent author. That’s the dream — and after more than a decade as a full-time author entrepreneur, I feel like I have taken a giant step closer to it by building my direct store, www.CreativePennBooks.com on the Shopify platform. So, let’s get into the details.  What is selling direct?  Selling direct encompasses many options, but essentially it’s you the author interacting with readers or listeners on your own platform and selling your books and other products in various formats. It usually involves making more profit per sale, getting paid faster, and retaining customer data.  It can be as varied as Kickstarter for a limited edition series of books (as Brandon Sanderson famously did with his $41m campaign); it can be an author selling their hand-bound ‘zine at a local craft fair, or more usually in the indie community, it’s selling ebooks and audiobooks through platforms like Payhip, or developed stores like Shopify, or plugin systems like WooCommerce. It is part of the ethos of publishing wide, which means not being exclusive to any specific retailer, but of course, you can choose different publishing options by book, by series, by author name, and by format. Many wide authors choose different options for different books over time. Selling direct doesn’t mean you ONLY sell on your store (unless you want to.) You can publish wide everywhere else as well as sell on your store, and customers can get your books from their favorite store or from the library or wherever they get books.  However, you might decide to have direct first and/or direct only products to encourage buyers. I sold How to Write a Novel direct for a month, although it’s available from 13 August 2022 on all stores in all the usual formats. My How to Write a Novel Workbook is only available on my store. To be clear, you need to own and control your intellectual property rights in order to sell direct. If you have signed a contract with a publisher for ‘digital rights’ or ebook and/or audiobook rights, you cannot sell your ebooks and audiobooks direct. If you have signed a contract for paperback or hardback or whatever else, you cannot sell your books direct — unless you clear that with your publisher.  Also, if you have opted into KDP Select for ebooks, or signed an exclusive contract with ACX for audio, you cannot sell those ebooks and audiobooks direct. That includes box sets/bundles if you have opted in for the individual books. Some KU authors release ebooks direct first, then withdraw them and put them in KU after the initial sales.  Remember, as an independent author, you are in control. You get to choose what’s right for your book and your author business. Why sell direct?  The main reasons for selling direct are creative and financial freedom.  You have the freedom to create and sell whatever you like, whenever you like, without fear of the platform owner changing the rules, or shifting the algorithm, or covering your sales page with ads for other books, or deciding they don’t want to publish your book. You make more money per sale and faster money per sale. It’s in your bank account immediately, or within a few days, instead of months.  You control the site and the customer experience, and you also retain customer data, with the caveat that you abide by all the relevant anti-spam and data protection laws.  It’s also getting easier.  The pandemic accelerated the adoption of online sales from niche stores, so customers are much happier to buy from authors and creatives, and not just on the big brand websites.  In fact, many customers choose to support their favorite creators directly and understand that buying direct helps the authors they love.  Some customers even seek out alternative ways to buy rather than using big brand stores because they want to support a more diverse creative and publishing ecosystem. I frequently get emails asking me for my links for books and other products because people want to buy from me and make sure I get a bigger share of the revenue than the big brands. Let’s be clear. I love the publishing industry and the companies that enable us to sell our books to as wide an audience as possible. I buy books in multiple formats from multiple places online and off, and I also borrow them from subscription programs. I also appreciate you buying or borrowing my books in any way you choose. It’s not about limiting options. It’s about expanding them. I want the entire industry to thrive — but every company is looking out for their own profits first, and selling direct means I get to look out for mine, before giving the other stores a cut of sales. Why I switched from Payhip to Shopify I’ve been selling ebooks, audiobooks, and online courses since I started online in 2008. I began with simple WordPress password-protected pages with PayPal payments, then I moved to e-Junkie and then SELZ for selling PDFs, videos, and ebooks until the EU Digital Tax law in 2018 made things more complicated. I moved to Payhip once they started to process EU tax on behalf of sellers, and integration with Bookfunnel made things easier in terms of delivery and customer service for digital products.  Until July 2022, I used Payhip for ebooks and audiobooks (tutorial here), Teachable for my courses (www.TheCreativePenn.com/learn ) and society6.com/creativepenn  for merchandise, like my CREATIVE branded mugs. I’ve been making direct sales almost every day for years now, but I have always thought that selling print books direct would be a huge pain, so I focused on digital only. My business principles include freedom of time and location, so I didn’t want to have boxes of books in my house, or be concerned about shipping and all its associated difficulties. Then in March 2022, I heard author Katie Cross on the 6 Figure Authors podcast talking about using Shopify with Print on Demand. It answered a lot of my questions about the process, and Katie kindly answered more questions personally, and also in this interview on my Creative Penn podcast.  Check out her books at www.KatieCrossBooks.com  I also spoke to patrons of the show, Shaw and Morgana Best, who both helped with other technical questions. Morgana also came on The Creative Penn Podcast to talk about her book, Stop Making Others Rich: How Authors Can Make Bank Selling Direct. Check out her store at www.MorganaBest.com  I learned that drop shipping print-on-demand books was not an issue after all. You can use Lulu Direct and/or Bookvault.app to integrate with your Shopify (or WooCommerce) store and they will print and ship books for you. Once I discovered this, I decided to investigate the idea of a store in more detail. To be clear, Payhip is a fantastic solution for selling direct if you want to sell primarily digital products with minimal setup and minimum fuss with EU digital taxes handled for you. I still recommend it, and I have a tutorial for setting it up with Bookfunnel here: https://www.thecreativepenn.com/selldirecttutorial/  But Payhip is limited in its functionality in terms of design and also integrations, so if you want multiple brands, multiple products, and integration with drop-shipping print on demand, then Shopify (or WooCommerce) are the way to go.  The Shopify App Store means you have almost unlimited options. Whatever you want to sell or develop, you will likely be able to find ‘an app for that,’ so you can build out a much bigger ecosystem than the smaller stores like Payhip allow for. Why a separate site, CreativePennBooks.com, and not a WooCommerce plugin or equivalent on my main websites? Some authors use WooCommerce as a plugin on their existing website, which means they can offer sales from their site without clicking over to another store. Much of the same functionality applies, and given the amount of traffic I get on TheCreativePenn.com, it might have made sense to do it that way.  But I have a few reasons for using a separate store website. TheCreativePenn.com is an old website. Home page of TheCreativePenn.com in Dec 2008 from the wayback machine I first built it in 2008 and although I have kept it as streamlined as possible, it has thousands of pages and posts and lots of plugins, and inevitably some old code. I didn’t want to burden it further by using WooCommerce as yet another suite of plugins. I also have multiple websites. The main ones are TheCreativePenn.com for Joanna Penn, JFPenn.com, and BooksAndTravel.page for J.F. Penn, and I also have CurlUpPress.com for the licensing side. If I went with WooCommerce, I would have to build on every site. I want one store across all my author brands, where there is no algorithm to worry about and customers can browse and buy across different facets of my creative world, which, let’s face it, is ever-expanding! Right now at CreativePennBooks.com, you can buy a J.F. Penn thriller, a creative self-help Joanna Penn book, or a mature sweet romance by my mum, Penny Appleton, and it won’t confuse any recommendation algorithm. I will add my pilgrimage memoir, merchandise, and a whole load of new stuff in the coming months (more on that towards the end). I’ve spent years separating all my brands on my various websites, as well as on the Third Party retailers. This absolutely makes sense for those stores, which rely on their AI algorithms to surface books to browsers.  But (you might have noticed) I am a multi-passionate creative!  I write and create in all kinds of different ways and I have felt increasingly hemmed in by the way we have to contort our creative selves to fit what the platforms want. A single store with links to everything I make with my intellectual property assets brings my creative offerings together in one place. Those who are interested in one type of book or product may discover I have much more to offer. I’m now directing traffic from all my other sites and social media platforms to CreativePennBooks.com and customers have the choice to shop for what they want, or since I will continue to publish on the other stores, they can buy or borrow wherever they like. Why Shopify rather than Kickstarter? (although they are not mutually exclusive) I decided to launch my store at the same time as launching my new non-fiction book, How to Write a Novel, which in hindsight was way too much work all at once. Tip: Don’t do that! I originally intended to launch How to Write a Novel as a Kickstarter campaign, and even went as far as creating a project plan and going through preliminary options with White Fox for design. I also interviewed Monica Leonelle and Bryan Cohen about their campaigns.  But I felt uneasy about using Kickstarter, an unease I have felt since the early days of crowdfunding. Although the model works well for many authors, it just doesn’t suit me as a creator. I don’t like ‘launch’ energy. I don’t like hype. I don’t like being boxed in by promising something to people and then feeling like I have too many ‘bosses’ waiting.  I much prefer the long game, and the evergreen availability of products underpinned by content marketing. A Kickstarter campaign is bounded by time and all your energy has to go into making that campaign a success, then after you’ve fulfilled that one, you do it again. Repeated Kickstarters build an audience on their platform and later campaigns can be more successful than earlier ones. It’s a series of ‘spike launches’ that you repeat, sometimes multiple times per year. Building a store is a very different project. It’s a one-off setup, which takes time upfront to get going, and then you incrementally add to it as you release books or expand into other products.  It’s more like a snowball rolling down the hill, getting bigger over time, which fits my preferred model of content marketing and a slow build over years.  So I have nothing against Kickstarter, and perhaps I might still do one in the future — but I decided to launch How to Write a Novel direct on my own store with an evergreen model. The Minimum Viable Store If you look into the possibilities of Shopify or WooCommerce, you quickly realize how powerful they can be — but that is both a blessing and a curse.  Once I decided to build a store, I read some books on Shopify, I listened to podcasts, and I talked to authors already embedded in it who were further down the track. I browsed the Shopify app store and discovered there really is an app for anything you want.  I quickly became overwhelmed.  I’m also not someone who likes to follow online video tutorials for software. I prefer to jump in and play with things. So I started a Shopify account, thinking it would be easy enough since I’ve been doing my own WordPress for years.  But of course, it’s not like WordPress, so I had to learn a new system. In my previous day job, I spent 13 years as a business consultant, implementing the software package SAP into large and small companies across Europe and Asia Pacific. I specialized in Accounts Payable and Banking and spent much of my time implementing and testing software. Those years taught me many things that have proved useful in my author life.  Relevant here are two things that might also help you.  Keep software as standard as possible and future upgrades will be less painful and less expensive. I have done this with my WordPress websites since 2008 and it has served me well and kept costs low. Control your project scope. If you expand the scope of the project, you will be in a lot of pain and may never finish! Bearing these principles in mind, I cut everything back to my initial project scope: Launching a Minimum Viable Store using the most basic aspects of Shopify Products — I only set up ebooks, audiobooks, and paperbacks. No bundles, no Large Print, no Hardbacks, no merch, no courses, no extras. I just wanted to replicate my Payhip store, plus add the print-on-demand option for paperbacks, and of course, launch How to Write a Novel into the world. Setting up Products was the main bulk of my work as I have a huge backlist with a lot of different formats. I set up 134 different products of varying kinds and then I needed to test all the integrations so that once a customer bought an ebook or audiobook, they would get the right files delivered by Bookfunnel and they were tagged in ConvertKit, and the print books were connected to the right files.  I also spent time making consistent product images. It’s important that the buyer knows what they are getting, and for the store to look professional, so I wanted to make images that looked all the same. I used MockUpShots.com to create the raw images, then resized them in canva.com. You can also use BookBrush.com or other image tools. I then had to set up Collections, which are groups of products based on varying criteria. For example,  How to Write a Novel is a collection, featuring the various formats all on one page.  Ebooks for Authors is also a collection by formats, as is Mapwalker Fantasy Audiobooks.  Collections are a key feature and element of the Shopify design. If you take a look at www.CreativePennBooks.com most pages are built using Featured Collections. Theme — I used Dawn, the standard theme provided as part of the Shopify account. Thanks to a patron of the show, Shaw, for helping me with the design side of things. It works differently from what I’m used to, but the standard theme has been fantastic. Payments — I set up the basics, Shopify Payments, and PayPal. Apps — The apps I have at the time of recording are: Bookvault (for POD), ConvertKit (for email integration), Frequently Bought Together (which suggests other products), GDPR/CCPA + Cookie Management, Customer Privacy, and Geolocation. Taxes and Integrations are covered in more detail below.  I also paid a Reedsy freelancer to set up the tracking for Google Analytics and Facebook, so I can possibly use them later for more targeting advertising based on conversions. You can optimize ads for sales and conversions if you control the sales page, which makes paid ads much more effective, and potentially cheaper per conversion. I have no immediate plans to do paid ads, but I want the option to use them later. The goal was to get the store live and launch How to Write a Novel and expand the store later. I achieved my goal, launching the minimum viable store and the book on 13 July 2022.  If you want to take this route, I suggest you follow the same approach. What is the minimum you need to do to get started? Then expand from there.  I’d give the same advice to anyone starting out with any kind of business, or becoming an author, or any new venture. Keep it simple. Otherwise, it’s easy to become confused and overwhelmed by all the options, and you might give up. [Note: If you are a new author working on your first book, then finish the book as your priority. Don’t worry about publishing options, marketing, or anything else other than finishing the book! Everything else is secondary.] Software and integrations: What other services do you need? For delivering ebooks and audiobooks, set up integration with Bookfunnel, which most indie authors and many readers are already familiar with as we use it to deliver our Reader Magnets, do promos, and more. Set up the ebook or audiobook within Bookfunnel.  Set up a Delivery Action.  Use a SKU code on the Shopify Product and link that SKU within Bookfunnel. They have easy setup instructions here. What about print books?  While you can do a special print run, store books at your house or in a warehouse, and then ship them to customers personally, I wanted to do print-on-demand drop shipping, which is basically the same as how Amazon KDP Print and Ingram Spark work. A customer orders and pays for the book + shipping. The book is printed and sent direct to them by the Third Party printer.  You do not pay lots of money upfront for bulk printing.  You do not have to store books or pay warehouse costs.  You do not have to handle packaging, postage, or shipping. The two main POD book drop-shipping services are Lulu Direct and Bookvault.app.  Choose whichever service as an App within your Shopify store.  Set up each book on the service. The ISBN links the Shopify product to the book at the printer, but they also have options for ‘dummy’ ISBNs so you don’t even need your own. It’s just a code linking the product with the printer.  One of the benefits of selling direct is knowing who your customer is and what they bought. I use ConvertKit for my email management and it has easy integration with Shopify.  I have the GDPR/CCPA + Cookie Management, and Customer Privacy apps to adhere to the appropriate data protection rules. Within ConvertKit, I set up a Rule for each product and assigned a Tag to the customer for the Product they bought, as well as sending an automatic email depending on what kind of product it was.  I want to get a lot more granular with this Tagging and email segmentation, but as part of my Minimum Viable Store approach, I went with the basics and will add to this later. For payments, you need to integrate with PayPal and Stripe. Both require anti-money-laundering checks if you’re new on the platforms, so make sure you allow enough time for setup. Why did I use BookVault.app for my print-on-demand books? Both Katie Cross and Morgana Best recommended Lulu Direct, but my entire backlist of paperbacks and many hardbacks are in 5 x 8 format, which Lulu doesn’t (currently) support. I was also aware of Bookvault.app after seeing them at a stand at the London Book Fair back in April. I kept one of their leaflets on my desk. Although the printing company behind it, Printondemand-worldwide has been established for over 25 years, the Shopify and WooCommerce integration is a relatively new service. My choice was to reformat my entire backlist to 5.5 x 8.5 or go with Bookvault.app. I decided on the latter and I’m extremely happy with them. The print quality is excellent, the pricing is great, and their customer service has been fantastic. (Thanks Alex and Curtis!) I’m also thrilled that I can do individual color pages. It means that How to Write a Novel bought direct from me has an interior color title page, and I’ll add other color features to books in the future. All interior pages are black and white if you buy from the other stores, although they do have other color options for higher print prices.  The Bookvault version also has a silken matte cover finish and doesn’t curl up or go wavy like some of the other POD services sometimes do. They have a lot of options for other print-on-demand books, so I’m excited to get more creative with print with future releases. I tested a lot of their functionality as part of my setup and suggested improvements. The support team responded quickly and helped with all my questions.  Bookvault.app has a setup fee per book, but no charge to change those files in the future. If you have a large backlist, ask for a discount for bulk setup. The biggest issue is that they currently only print in the UK (as of August 2022), so if a customer orders from outside the UK, the shipping cost is higher than some services and takes longer than the ‘next day delivery service’ many readers are used to. It can take 10-15 business days for delivery. Thanks to @jimmiekepler – from twitter However, there are ways to deal with this:  Understand that you are NOT competing with the big brand stores for printing and free, fast delivery. None of us can compete with the big stores, so don’t even try to.  My books are available in all the usual places, and customers can buy there if they want, or get the book from the library. Whatever they like.  But to encourage direct sales, I remind buyers that by purchasing direct, they are supporting both an independent author, and also an independent book printer. For How To Write a Novel, the customer also gets a premium special print edition that’s different to those offered on other stores. Isn’t it worth a few more dollars and a little longer to wait for that? Communicate the timeframe for delivery on the product page and on your FAQ page. The paperback edition of How to Write a Novel says, Shipping in the UK, 3-4 days. To US, CA, AU and other countries, it can be 10 business days (2 weeks) for this special edition. Communicate this again in the email that buyers are sent after purchase to avoid support emails.  Thanks to @alyssakckuron on twitter Based on my feedback and that of other authors, Bookvault is currently investigating printers within the USA and that might be something they develop further based on demand. The more authors who ask, the better! You can contact them through www.bookvault.app  You can also split your sales and use both services. Morgana Best added Bookvault because of the cheaper print prices and now sells UK print books through Bookvault and international print books through Lulu Direct. What about signed print books?  If you want to sign the book and dedicate it to someone, you can’t drop-ship those. You need the books physically in your hands to sign them, then you have to ship them.  While you can set up a sale for this within Shopify, or with any other payment platform, you’re still going to need the print books in your house, store them and ship them, which is why I don’t do this at the moment. How does the money work? What are the costs? How do I get paid? There are some upfront setup costs.  Shopify has several plans and these will no doubt change over time, but it ranges from $29 to $299 per month depending on what level of functionality you need. Yes, I am now an affiliate so you can use my link: www.TheCreativePenn.com/shopify or just go to Shopify.com. For my Minimum Viable Store, I used it pretty much straight out of the box with no bells and whistles. You can also try it for free and see if you want to continue.  Many authors, like Morgana Best and Katie Cross now use their Shopify store as their main author website, so this removes hosting costs for another site.  To deliver ebooks and audiobooks, Bookfunnel is $20 – $250 per year depending on the size of your backlist and the functionality you require. Lulu Direct and BookVault.app have minimal setup costs per book, so the total cost will depend on the size of your backlist, number of formats etc. You can buy premium themes, but I used the standard Shopify theme included with the plan.  My other costs are already costs of my business — my accountant and bookkeeper, Xero for accounting software, ConvertKit for email, as well as the usual bank and transaction fees.  For the print books, you also have to keep your account at the printers topped up in advance. Payment for each order printed is taken from your balance. I top mine up in batches of several hundred pounds so it’s not a massive outlay, especially when you are paid so quickly after the sale. In terms of income, one of the brilliant things about selling direct is how fast the money gets to your bank account. Choose the payment methods you want to accept in the settings of your Shopify store. This can include everything from Shopify Payments to PayPal to Amazon Pay, and other options like cryptocurrency. For my Minimum Viable Store, I set up PayPal, where the money appears almost immediately in my account and I can transfer to my bank account immediately as well as I’ve been using it for years.  I also set up Shopify Payments, which are aggregated and paid to my account within 24-72 hours. You can change these settings based on your requirements. Set the price for each Product, factoring in your costs and the profit you want to make. You can set up different country or regional markets with different currencies and you can pay extra to set prices per currency or use their standard exchange rate. The money comes into your bank account in your store currency.  The main cost for ebooks and audiobooks (on top of editing and book cover design, as well as narration) is your Bookfunnel account as above.  So it’s a significant profit for digital products, minus transaction fees (for the basic plan it’s 2.9% + 30c per transaction, and there may also be PayPal and bank fees).  Compare that with 30 – 65% that the third-party stores take from each transaction, or if you’re traditionally published, the cut that the publisher and agent take. For print products, you obviously need to factor in the cost of printing as well as some exchange rate differences which come into play for overseas shipping. The shipping is paid for by the customer on top of the price of the book.  As a worked example, Mary buys How to Write a Novel direct.  £10.99 – Book cost £3.39 – Postage and packaging within the UK Mary pays: £14.38 on CreativePennBooks.com I receive that money almost immediately if it’s on PayPal or within a few days through ShopPay. I have already put some prepaid credit onto Bookvault and they use that credit to offset the printing and shipping. £3.58 – Printing cost £3.39 – Shipping cost Total cost: £6.97  Profit on this sale = £7.41 (around US$9) There are also fees on PayPal and Shopify which will depend on the plans you use. Assume 2.9% + 30c per transaction, so the fee on this would be around 71p.  Total profit after fees: £6.70 (around US$8) My books are also available through Amazon KDP Print and Ingram Spark, where I make around £3.40 profit per book, about half of what I make on my own store. And of course, that money doesn’t arrive in my bank account for at least 60 days.  Traditionally published authors may only see a fraction of that profit, for example, 10-20% of net on paperbacks, depending on the contract.   Yes, I could make the printed books cheaper, but this is a business and the whole point is providing a great product for a reasonable price and making a profit! This way, selling direct is more profitable for print books as well as digital formats. That’s a game-changer, and in the publishing world where profits are being squeezed by subscription programs and ad costs, we need the change the game. What about tax? I am not a financial, legal, or tax advisor, so none of this is financial, tax, or legal advice. Tax settings per product vary by country and, in some places, by state. Your country and the country of the customer will make a difference to the tax situation. The tax situation definitely put me off initially. Payhip handles EU taxes, and all the Third Party stores handle sales taxes/VAT, so using these platforms seemed like the best option. It still is for many people.  But it turned out that I was totally overstating the tax issues. It really is not that big a deal once you figure it out. Spending a few hours in the fine print really does pay off in the long run.  I researched what I needed to do per product. For example, in the UK, ebooks do not have VAT applied, but stationery like workbooks do, and so do audiobooks. The EU VAT taxes have to be applied per country of the customer and the invoice has to include certain info. There are thresholds in certain countries that will determine whether you need to account for tax there, and there are also tax treaties that apply depending on your jurisdiction and where you’re selling. Clearly, all that will vary depending on your situation. I sent a list to my accountant and she adjusted and then approved my settings, which I then set up within the Shopify Tax and Duties area. They have a handy setting for the European Union, which was my biggest concern, but again, it’s not been a big deal. The fear was greater than the actual event. There are premium tax apps on Shopify — TaxJar and Quaderno are two options. But I found that the standard Shopify tax report works just fine for my needs. I send the standard report to my accountant and they deal with the VAT for me, which they already do for my other tax-related transactions.  Given that everyone is in a different situation in terms of company setup, country, tax jurisdiction, and more, you will have to figure this out for yourself. But once I set aside the time and waded through a ton of tax pages, it was not that big of a deal, and now the setup is done, it’s sorted. How long does the setup take?  There is definitely a learning curve as Shopify is essentially a new system, but the time it takes to get to grips with it will depend on your confidence and patience with technology, how many products you have, how much testing you need to do, and how much help you have. It took me 40-50 hours to set up my store, including testing all the integrations. That’s hours spent, not time elapsed. I had a lot to build because of the extent of my backlist, and although I had help from authors with existing stores, I didn’t have a clear blueprint to follow. If you have fewer products, then you could definitely do it quicker, even with less technical experience. Although it was a push to get it all done for the launch, I learned how the Shopify system essentially works, and making changes to the store now is now just as easy as it is for me to change my WordPress sites. You can pay someone to set it up for you, but if you want to keep costs down, and understand how it all works, set aside some time, jump in and have a play. You can password protect the site until you’re ready to set it live.  This can-do attitude has always been my default position. If you think I had an advantage working as an SAP consultant all those years ago, think again! I have a Masters degree in Theology from the University of Oxford and a Post-Graduate Diploma in Psychology.  Although I have invested in many short courses over the years — and gazillions of books — I have no degree in computing, internet marketing, publishing, writing, or essentially anything related to how I make a living.  You can learn as you go. You just need the right attitude. In terms of help, I asked various people questions, but there was limited formal training or help available specifically for authors who want to sell books on Shopify. While there are loads of tutorials for selling other products, there was nothing specifically for us.  But that has now changed. Morgana Best has a great new book, Stop Making Others Rich: How Authors Can Make Bank Selling Direct, and she also has a course on selling direct which includes help with Shopify. I’m an affiliate of the course — https://www.thecreativepenn.com/shopifycourse  So the setup will be much easier if you follow her instructions than it was for me, but I still recommend you question what you need for your store once you have the basics. Every author is different. Start with the minimum viable store. What about support issues? How time-consuming has it been?  Since I’ve already been selling direct for years, and all my sales so far are to my existing audience, most went through with no problems.  A couple of people had issues with Bookfunnel downloads. A couple of people had issues with PayPal Express checkout in the UK, and a couple of people have emailed about how long the print book delivery is to the US. But the vast majority (96%) of orders have been fine with no support. I update my FAQ page and my post-purchase email as the issues come in, and I’m training my virtual assistant, Alexandra, to answer the common ones.  What about marketing? How do you get traffic to your store?  These days you have to drive traffic to your books on every store, so regardless of how you publish, you have to attract readers to your books. Pretty much all marketing tips apply to your own store as much as they do elsewhere. I’ve been using the same primary marketing methods for over a decade — email marketing and content marketing.  I have two main email lists. Get my free Author Blueprint at www.TheCreativePenn.com/blueprint and get a free thriller at www.JFPenn.com/free  There’s a link to sign up in the back of all my books, and links on my website, the podcast, and all over social media. I email every few weeks to the non-fiction audience and every month or so to my fiction audience. I include photos and articles and links to the podcast, affiliate offers — and yes, my books! Direct first or direct only sales will help bring customers over. For the launch of How to Write a Novel, I emailed my list, announced it on the podcast, and directed buyers to the purchase page on CreativePennBooks.com.  It’s been direct only for a month as this goes out, and will be on all the usual stores in the next few days. In terms of direct only, the How to Write a Novel Workbook is only available at my store. I won’t publish that anywhere else, at least for now. some of my workbooks for authors In the future, I intend to launch direct first and direct only for different products, and you can also easily provide Discount codes to encourage purchase. I sent them out to my patrons and also to my email list, and will continue to do direct only discounts over time. In terms of content marketing, I have two podcasts: The Creative Penn Podcast for Writers and Books and Travel, both with transcripts and show notes which many people read separately to the listening audience. This brings traffic to the store as I announce different things over time.  I am also updating my links everywhere — on social media, website pages, email signatures, and at some point, I will work through the backlist of my books.  One good tip (I think Morgana Best gave me this one!) is to have your Reading Order on your shop, and link through to that from your books so customers explore further. Of course, you can also use paid advertising. Most social media platforms have social commerce embedded now and since you can measure conversion, it enables far more optimized ads than just paying for clicks. I haven’t done this yet, but I have the Facebook pixel on the store and also Google Analytics for future use. I have an entire book on marketing, How to Market a Book, 99% of which applies to your own store, as much as any other third-party platform. Morgana Best also includes marketing ideas in Stop Making Others Rich. There are endless ideas for marketing books. You just have to change your mindset about where you send your readers. What are my plans for CreativePennBooks.com ?  While I was in the exhausted phase after the initial build and book launch, I wondered whether it was all worth the effort. This is a common feeling amongst authors who decide to publish wide, let alone sell direct. But my friend and creative mentor, Orna Ross, reminded me, “Think what this store could be in 10 years time.” This long-term attitude can be hard to maintain, but it’s what I have built my existing business on — and it’s what I will build the next decade of my business on. I am beyond excited to have a fledgling eCommerce site that is not dependent on the ever-changing requirements of the online bookstores, where I can deliver interesting and unique aspects of my creativity, and where I own the customer relationship. Plus, where I get paid first, rather than last. I still plan to be primarily wide with my books as ever — available everywhere you buy or borrow books — but I will launch direct first in the future. I will release everything I write and create on my store first, for a few weeks or even a few months before the other stores. I will also offer discounts to my email list and existing audience to buy direct. This is a mindset shift for me because although I have sold direct for over a decade, it has been as a secondary market. I’ve focused on the major stores first and had direct sales as an after-thought. Now I want to switch my effort the other way. So, I have many plans for CreativePennBooks.com to take it beyond the Minimum Viable Store.  In the short term, I need to finish the initial build:  Add the remaining bundles and boxsets Add other formats — Large Print and Hardback where appropriateSort out my social media integrations — Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Twitter Build better email autoresponder flows so they are more than just one basic email per author name Then I want to look into new products:  Merchandise — Replace the CREATIVE range on https://society6.com/creativepenn with POD merch vendors on Shopify. I’d like to revisit the creative journal idea, and I have always wanted to do a ‘creative pen’! I take a LOT of photos on my travels, and I have some beautiful images. I’d like to look at how I can use them in products, e.g. POD cards, or other things, since those are essentially IP I own and control.Travel guides — PDF guides with lots of images for my walks, e.g. St Cuthbert’s Way, and perhaps audio walking tours that go along with my books, e.g. South Bank of LondonAudio programs — I want to take the audio of my video courses and turn them into audio-only products, as I know many of you (like me) prefer audio to videoNFT special editions for my books. Shopify is developing NFT functionality. It’s in beta at the moment, but I think NFTs and blockchain applications will become more user-friendly in 2023, so I will launch NFT digital originals alongside the other formats. I’m also encouraged by how much Shopify is considering web 3 and how tech might change in the next decade, so I am confident that their software will adapt as things shift.I also want to try some of the other creative print options Bookvault.app offers, like foil lamination and different cover materials. It’s time to experiment with more beautiful special print products, that excitingly, we can also do with POD. I also want to look into new payment methods like Amazon Pay and crypto payments, and whatever else might make it easier for people to shop. I also want to make the most of the SEO and reporting that Shopify provides.  As a small example, as I was preparing this, I went to my Home page within my Shopify Admin platform, where it includes recommendations to improve your store.  One section said, “Some of your visitors can’t find what they are looking for. People are searching for these terms on your online store but aren’t getting any results. You might want to add them to your product descriptions to help them out.”  Two customers had searched for ‘Scrivener’ on the store in the last week. I immediately took action and added my Scrivener tutorial to the site and linked to it on my FAQ page. That’s just a tiny example, and Shopify offers tips like this every time you log in customized to your store. I love the idea of improving my store by 1% every day, which will compound over time to a much more significant eCommerce platform, resulting in more of my income through direct sales. I’ll also add new forms of marketing. I need to update the back of all my books with my store link, and will also play with paid ads at some point. Shopify has a vast eCommerce system, so there is a lot more for me to learn. I don’t know what I don’t know right now, but the possibilities are exciting. There is so much potential.  Who knows what CreativePennBooks.com might be in 10 years’ time?  Was the temporary setup pain worth it?  Absolutely.  In the end, this is a mindset shift towards building a truly independent creative business.  It’s about changing the game and focusing on what I want to create and sell rather than trying to keep up with the ever-changing requirements of the third-party stores and ad platforms.  Of course, I will still publish (most of) my books in all the usual places — and I appreciate you buying or borrowing my books from wherever you want to — but in terms of my author business, I will slowly switch my focus to selling direct. I value creative and financial freedom above pretty much all else and I’m thinking about CreativePennBooks.com as the cornerstone of my next decade as an author entrepreneur, the basis of my Creator Economy. Interesting times ahead as ever! Are direct sales for you?  If you ‘just want to write’ and don’t want to run a business as an author, direct sales are not for you. If technology freaks you out in general, this is not for you. If you’re still here and you feel a pull of curiosity, then direct sales might be right for your author business. Start with whatever your Minimum Viable Store is and go from there. Or revisit this idea later once your career is more developed. Try out CreativePennBooks.com with free ebooks and audio  If you’d like to try the store as a customer without spending any money, then you can get the following products for free at www.CreativePennBooks.com :  Stone of Fire, ARKANE Thriller #1 Ebook (2022 edition) Successful Self-Publishing Ebook Blood, Sweat and Flame. A Short Story, written and narrated by me, J.F. Penn  Of course, you’re welcome to buy too! Need help with your Shopify store?  As ever, I will continue to share my journey and lessons learned along the way on the podcast, and if you’re a Patron of the show, you can ask your specific questions in the monthly Q&A. You can become a Patron at www.Patreon.com/thecreativepenn I’ll also include more thoughts in my Creator Economy mini-course, coming soon. For more help, check out Morgana Best’s new book, Stop Making Others Rich: How Authors Can Make Bank Selling Direct. Morgana also has a course, Authors Selling Books on Shopify, coming out in September 2022 which you can pre-order at my affiliate link: www.thecreativepenn.com/shopifycourse  She also has a Facebook group, Authors Selling Direct: https://www.facebook.com/groups/authorssellingdirect/  Let me know what you think in the comments. Is direct sales the future for indie authors? What are your questions about selling direct on Shopify? And if you already have a Shopify store, please share your lessons learned and tips. The post Selling Books Direct With Shopify: The Minimum Viable Store first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Selling your books direct to readers and listeners can bring you more money, faster, and allow you to control your customer’s experience and data. Morgana Best explains why selling direct is so important for an author business, and some of her tips for implementing a Shopify store. In the intro, the publishing court case of […] The post Selling Books Direct On Shopify With Morgana Best first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What do you need to consider if you want to go full time as an author entrepreneur? What challenges might you face in your first few years? Sacha Black shared her lessons learned from 3 years full-time. In the intro, PRH and S&S merger heads to trial [Publishers Weekly]; Pilgrimage episodes on my Books and […] The post Lessons Learned From 3 Years As A Full-Time Author with Sacha Black first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How will blockchain technology change the way creatives register copyright, as well as monetize their work? Roanie Levy explains how blockchain can solve the attribution problem, and how smart contracts will allow new business models with ownership of digital assets in web 3. This podcast is sponsored by Written Word Media, which makes book marketing a […] The post Blockchain For Copyright And Intellectual Property With Roanie Levy first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you lean into your strengths as a writer to find the genre — and the business model — that suits you best? A.G. Riddle talks about his writing process, his publishing choices, and how he’s planning to pivot into the next phase of his career. In the intro, I talk about my experience […] The post Writing A Bestseller With A.G. Riddle first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Tools and tactics may change, but the principles of book marketing remain the same whatever the situation. Becky Robinson gives advice on how to reach readers and market your books for the long term. In the intro, The Things You Think Matter — Don’t [Ryan Holiday]; Boost Your Backlist [ALLi]; Craving Independence [The Bookseller]; 21st […] The post Reach: Create The Biggest Audience For Your Book With Becky Robinson first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How To Write a Novel: From Idea to Book is out now if you buy direct from my store, www.CreativePennBooks.com for ebook, audiobook, paperback, or workbook editions. It will be out everywhere on your favorite store in your preferred format from 13 August 2022. More details and links here. In today’s special inbetweenisode, I share […] The post Writing A Novel Will Change Your Life. Audiobook Introduction Of How To Write A Novel. first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you write a series which keeps your readers engaged, while still keeping your creative spark alive? How can you sustain a writing career for the long term? With Tess Gerritsen. In the intro, The Creator Economy report [The Tilt]; Publisher Rocket tutorial. Today’s show is sponsored by IngramSpark, who I use to print […] The post Writing For The Long-Term With Tess Gerritsen first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Print on demand makes it easy to sell print books without the hassle of storage and shipping — but it’s limited to what the established POD printers allow. What if you want to do a special print run, either for a crowdfunding project, or because you want higher quality print production with extras? White Fox […] The post Publishing Special Print Editions And Crowdfunding with John Bond and Chris Wold from White Fox first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the different types of editing? How can you find and work effectively with the best editor for your book? What are some editing tips to watch out for in your fiction or non-fiction manuscript? With Kristen Tate from The Blue Garret. In the intro, hiring virtual assistants [ALLi]; and I’m recording my audiobook […] The post Different Kinds Of Editing, And How To Find An Editor With Kristen Tate first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you write twists that surprise a reader? How can you market your books effectively as a traditionally published author? Clare Mackintosh talks about her creative process, and how she works with her publisher to reach more readers. In the intro, Kate Bush is “the world’s biggest independent artist” right now and more on […] The post Writing Twists And Marketing As A Traditionally Published Author With Clare Mackintosh first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What is GPT-3 and how can writers use it responsibly as part of their creative process? How can we approach AI tools with curiosity, rather than fear? Thriller author Andrew Mayne talks about these aspects and more. In the intro, I mention the discussion about whether Google’s language model, LaMDA, could be sentient [The Verge]; […] The post Writing With Artificial Intelligence With Andrew Mayne first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you sell books direct to your readers for all formats without dealing with the pain of shipping print books? How can you automate sales with email? How can you earn 80-90% of the sales price and have it go into your bank account in days or even hours, instead of months? Katie Cross […] The post Selling Books Direct on Shopify with Katie Cross first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you manage a successful Kickstarter campaign without burning out? How can you expand into multiple streams of income? Bryan Cohen talks about crowdfunding, changes in his business model, and more. In the intro, 10th year of double-digit audiobook growth [Publishing Perspectives]; Spotify’s plans for audiobook expansion [Spotify]; Free webinars for audiobook month [FindawayVoices]; […] The post Kickstarter And Multiple Streams Of Non-Fiction Income With Bryan Cohen first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you make your self-published books available to libraries in every format? How can you pitch librarians so they are interested in ordering your books? Eric Otis Simmons explains how he successfully pitches and sells to libraries throughout the USA. In the intro, Books2Read is useful for sharing wide links; Lindsay Buroker gives long […] The post How To Get Your Self-Published Book Into Libraries With Eric Otis Simmons first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Why do you need an email list when you can just reach readers with social media? How can you use reader magnets to build your email list? Tammi Labrecque gives beginner and advanced tips for book marketing. In the intro, The state of the Creator Economy report from ConvertKit; and I use and recommend ConvertKit […] The post Build Your Email List With Reader Magnets With Tammi Labrecque first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do we decide on the hero for our story? How can we write distinctive — but still believable — characters? Matt Bird talks about aspects of writing character. In the intro, a guide to UBLs, Universal Book Links [Draft2Digital]; Your author brand [Ask ALLi with me and Orna Ross]; The Creator Economy in Bath. […] The post Writing Characters With Matt Bird first appeared on The Creative Penn.

I’ve been talking about AI narration for several years now, but it’s just starting to go mainstream and I’ve been getting emails every day recently asking the same questions, so this is a round-up article with the most important information. For context, I am an audiobook narrator. I narrate my own non-fiction and short stories. […] The post An Update On AI-Narrated Audiobooks [May 2022] first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Why is writing so important? How can we pursue true independence as authors? How can we stay open to technological change while still focusing on the fundamentals of craft? Derek Sivers talks about these things and more. In the intro, How to know if you are putting too much pressure on yourself [Holly Worton]; Breaking […] The post Writing, Independence, And Selling Books Direct With Derek Sivers first appeared on The Creative Penn.

If you want to create, sell, buy, or trade NFTs, you need to understand the financial and tax implications. In this interview, Joe David explains the important aspects of blockchain assets and cryptocurrency. [Disclaimer: This is not financial or legal advice. This is just a conversation based on our interest and experience. Please consult a […] The post Financial And Tax Implications Of NFTs With Joe David, Crypto Accountant first appeared on The Creative Penn.

In this inspirational interview, crime writer Angela Marsons talks about how she overcame years of rejection and broke out of societal expectations to reach writing and publishing success. She also talks about tips for writing a long-running crime series, and how she weaves her home of the Black Country into her stories. In the intro, […] The post Writing A Successful Crime Thriller Series With Angela Marsons first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you make more money without growing the size of your business? What systems and mindset do you need to focus on in order to leverage your limited time? Elaine Pofeldt talks about Tiny Business, Big Money in this interview. In the intro, Google Play Books opens up their AI narration for audiobooks; thoughts […] The post Tiny Business, Big Money With Elaine Pofeldt first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you hook readers into your story by using universal human desires and motivations? How can you write what you love, run your author business your way, and still maintain the ambition for a 7-figure author business? Theodora Taylor gives her thoughts in this interview. In the intro, self-publishing predictions for the 2020s [ALLi]; […] The post 7 Figure Fiction With Theodora Taylor first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Why are digital scarcity and ownership so important to the business model of creators in web 3? How can an author use a wider fictional world for creative and business goals? Rae and Stephen talk about why creators need web 3 and their fantasy universe, SitkaWorld. In the intro, I mention the Creatokia podcast with […] The post Creating A Fictional World In Web 3 With Rae Wojcik and Stephen Poynter first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you turn one idea into a short story or expand it into a novel? How can you find a writing process that brings you joy for the long term? Jessie Kwak talks about writing craft tips in this interview. In the intro, I comment on Andy Jassy’s letter to shareholders and the importance […] The post From Big Idea To Book With Jessie Kwak first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you write a book that children will love? How can you reach schools and libraries with your books? What might you be leaving on the table in terms of revenue in your author business? Daniel Miller shares his tips, and we also discuss the potential opportunities in his business model. In the intro, […] The post Creating And Selling Books For Children With Daniel Miller first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you create distance from your manuscript in order to see it as a reader does and edit effectively? What are some of the biggest issues with editing a manuscript? How can you edit on a budget? Tiffany Yates Martin talks all about editing in this interview. In the intro, 10 years of the […] The post Intuitive Editing With Tiffany Yates Martin first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Would you like to successfully crowdfund your book on Kickstarter? Monica Leonelle shares practical and mindset tips for creating the right kind of project, as well as mistakes to avoid, and how to satisfy fans — and make money with your books. Monica and I recorded this before Brandon Sanderson’s epic Kickstarter which has raised […] The post Kickstarter For Authors With Monica Leonelle first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you future-proof your author career by being careful with the publishing clauses you sign? Why are NFTs so interesting for intellectual property? How might DAOs help authors with estate planning? Copyright and trademark attorney Kathryn Goldman talks about these things and more. In the intro, I talk about my art NFTs [JFPenn & […] The post The Legal Side Of Intellectual Property, NFTs, and DAOs With Kathryn Goldman first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do we tell the deeper story that matters in a way that engages readers? How can we tackle the inner critic, self-censorship and fear of judgment? And does social media actually sell books? Nikesh Shukla talks about why Your Story Matters and gives his writing tips. In the intro, Amazon opens up Ads to […] The post Your Story Matters With Nikesh Shukla first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What if the traditional publishing model is not the best way to publish a book in a digital age? What if publishing it as an ebook on Amazon is not the best way, either? Elle Griffin questions the established ways of publishing a book and explains how she is using SubStack and NFTs for her […] The post Different Ways Of Publishing Through Substack And NFTs With Elle Griffin first appeared on The Creative Penn.

I’ve spent the last 15 years building an author business on Web 2 — digital publishing, blogging and podcasting, social media, and more. But as Web 3 begins to emerge through blockchain, NFTs, AI, and the metaverse, I want to make sure I still have a thriving business over the next 15 years. NFTs are an […] The post Creativity, Collaboration, Community, and Cash. NFTs For Authors [Audio] With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can we improve our creativity and release our self-censorship to write more freely? Dan Holloway talks about aspects of creativity as well as physical challenges, neurodiversity, and how technology might augment us in this interview. In the intro, thoughts on Brandon Sanderson’s Kickstarter [Kris Rusch]; Guide to Multiple Streams of Income [Self Publishing Advice]; Thoughts […] The post Improve Your Creativity With Dan Holloway first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can we overcome self-doubt to write the books we really want to? How can we move past writer’s block? How can we reshape our definition of success and return to the joy of writing? Dharma Kelleher talks about the author mindset and more. In the intro, Brandon Sanderson’s Kickstarter, Bookstore consolidation [The Guardian]; Amazon […] The post Dealing With Self-Doubt And Writer’s Block With Dharma Kelleher first appeared on The Creative Penn.

The creative journey is often a winding path to success, but our experiences along the way can enrich our writing and help us develop a unique author voice. Johnny B Truant talks about his journey from scientist to non-fiction/self-help, to over 100 books and a TV show based on his novels. In the intro, What […] The post Pivoting On The Creative Journey With Johnny B Truant first appeared on The Creative Penn.

In January 2022, I re-edited my first novel, Stone of Fire, which I started during NaNoWriMo in 2009 and published in April 2011. In this episode, I explain why and how I re-edited the book, as well as some lessons learned from revisiting my writer self of over a decade ago. This episode includes: Why […] The post Writing Tips: Lessons Learned From Rewriting My First Novel Over A Decade Later first appeared on The Creative Penn.

It’s never too late to start writing and there are many pro writers ahead of you on the path lead the way. Craig Martelle shares tips on writing, self-publishing, and book marketing, as well as how he believes in the rising tide that lifts all boats, and how helping each other is the best way […] The post Tips For Indie Author Success With Craig Martelle first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Smashwords was the original distribution service for indie authors and Mark Coker has been an advocate for wide publishing for over 14 years. Draft2Digital has been a fantastic service for indies over the last decade, moving into new markets, providing great tools, and helping authors sell more books. On Feb 8, 2022, Draft2Digital announced they […] The post Draft2Digital Acquires Smashwords. The Opportunities Ahead For Wide Publishing With Mark Coker And Kevin Tumlinson first appeared on The Creative Penn.

The self-publishing movement is just getting started in Jamaica and the Caribbean islands, and authors are discovering they can tell their stories in their own way. C. Ruth Taylor talks about how she became an authorpreneur and why she believes in an indie-first, empowering ecosystem. In the intro, Draft2Digital acquires Smashwords [D2D; Mark Coker]; Impact […] The post Self-Publishing In Jamaica And The Caribbean And The Importance Of Diverse Voices With C. Ruth Taylor first appeared on The Creative Penn.

John Kremer’s 1001 Ways to Market Your Book was the first book I ever bought on marketing way back when I started self-publishing in 2008. He has revised it several times since and is still a prolific content creator around book marketing. I’m thrilled to discuss long-term book marketing for authors in this interview. In […] The post Book Marketing Tips For The Long Term With John Kremer first appeared on The Creative Penn.

J. Thorn and I are both authors and passionate about helping writers find new ways to create, collaborate, reach fans, and make more money in the Creator Economy. We’re also both excited about the creative and financial possibilities of emerging blockchain technology, including NFTs. In this discussion, we cover: Explaining NFTs for non-technical people. Some […] The post The Creative Potential Of NFTs For Authors With J. Thorn And Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Welcome to episode 600! I’m doing a solo show today, answering some questions from my recent podcast survey that cover the different aspects of the author life. From episode 1 to episode 600 I recorded episode 1 in March 2009 when I lived in Ipswich, just outside Brisbane, Australia. I phoned up a bestselling author […] The post Episode 600: Thoughts On Writing Craft, Publishing, Marketing, Mindset, And The Author Business With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you take back your rights when publishing conditions change? How can you make sure you sign contracts that make it easier for rights reversion in the future? Katlyn Duncan talks about these things and more. In the intro, the splits in indie publishing [Kris Writes]; Burnout and Writer’s Block [6 Figure Authors]; Publisher […] The post Take Back Your Book: An Author’s Guide to Rights Reversion and Publishing on Your Terms With Katlyn Duncan first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do you turn an idea into a poem? What are the publishing options for poets, and how does marketing work? Rishi Dastidar talks about his life in poetry and provides tips for taking your creative work further. In the intro, What Readers Want in 2022 [ALLi]; Ads for Authors (affiliate link); Submission on AI […] The post The Craft And Business Of Poetry With Rishi Dastidar first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can we recognize self-doubt and create alongside it as part of the author journey? How can we write with confidence and double down on what we love the most? William Kenower talks about these aspects and more. In the intro, planning for 2022 [Ask ALLi]; Your publishing options [6 Figure Authors]; Need an audiobook […] The post A Writer’s Guide To The End Of Self-Doubt With William Kenower first appeared on The Creative Penn.

If the pandemic has affected your sleep, you are not alone! If you want to sort out your sleep issues and improve your creativity — and your life — as we head into a new year, this episode with Dr. Anne D. Bartolucci will help. In the intro, publishing industry trends for 2022 [Written Word […] The post Improve Your Sleep And Creativity With Dr. Anne D. Bartolucci first appeared on The Creative Penn.

“We make plans, God laughs.” The old Yiddish proverb will no doubt stand true for another year, but I just can’t help myself!  I need to make plans to have something to aim for, but given how 2021 didn’t turn out as expected, for 2022 I will hold my plans and goals loosely and won’t […] The post My Creative And Business Goals For 2022 With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

As we all look back at the past year, it feels like it’s flown by — but also that time has warped in a way and it feels like we’ve been stuck in this pandemic for much longer than we expected. So here’s my 2021 year in review and an update on whether I managed […] The post Not Quite The Year We Hoped For. Review Of My 2021 Creative Business Goals first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Our publishing, marketing and author business tasks are important — but at the end of the day, it all comes down to writing. We are authors. We are writers. So as we head toward a new year, how can you find the time to write? How can you make the most of your writing time? […] The post How To Find The Time To Write And Make The Most Of Your Writing Time With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Why is story so important — no matter what genre we write? How can we use emotion to hook readers — and also tap into what matters in our own lives? Lisa Cron talks about these questions and more in this discussion about Story or Die. In the intro, Ultimate Guide to Copyright [ALLi]; How […] The post Story Or Die With Lisa Cron first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Readers buy or borrow your book based on your cover and book description, so how can we make sure the description is the best it can be? How can we make readers want to click Buy Now and start reading immediately? Michaelbrent Collings provides useful tips — and tough love! — for authors who struggle […] The post Writing Hooks And Improving Your Fiction Book Description With Michaelbrent Collings first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you cultivate patience for your long-term author career? How can you figure out your personal, creative and financial goals and make choices toward them? MK Williams talks about these questions, as well as podcast marketing and turning a blog or transcript into a book. In the intro, my reflections on the UK FutureBook […] The post Patience, Ambition, And Financial Independence With MK Williams first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Is digital narration with AI voices good enough for non-fiction or fiction audiobooks? Can human narrators benefit through voice licensing? What are the options for sales and distribution? Taylan Kamis from Deep Zen explains digital narration for audiobooks, and I share some samples from my digitally narrated books through Deep Zen. Taylan Kamis is the […] The post Digital Narration With AI Voices With Taylan From DeepZen first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do you know when an idea is a short story, a novella, or a full-length novel? How can you turn one story into multiple streams of income? Alan Baxter talks about a long-term craft-centered approach to the author career and how his short stories have won him multiple awards. More on writing horror: How […] The post Short Stories As The Basis To An Award-Winning Author Career With Alan Baxter first appeared on The Creative Penn.

The relentless news about climate change can leave us despondent — but what if we can use fiction to help people with positive ideas of what the future could look like and the actions we can take to change things? Denise Baden talks about the power of eco-fiction and explains the Green Stories Novel Prize, […] The post Can Stories Save The World? Writing For The Environment With Denise Baden first appeared on The Creative Penn.

With so many technological advances in recent years, can publishing keep up? Michael Bhaskar and I discuss AI tools for writing, blockchain and NFTs, digital narration, and impacts on intellectual property rights licensing in this wide-ranging interview. In the intro, Spotify acquires Findaway and my thoughts on what it means for authors, narrators, and rights-holders […] The post Big Ideas In Technology And Publishing With Michael Bhaskar first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Dave Chesson provides many useful tools and information for authors at Kindlepreneur and he has recently launched Atticus, writing and formatting software that will output both ebook and print formats, as well as providing collaboration and ARC management tools. Dave Chesson is the founder of Kindlepreneur and producer of Publisher Rocket and Atticus, amongst many […] The post Amazon Keywords And Atticus For Writing And Book Formatting With Dave Chesson first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What projects are worth pitching for film and TV? What do you need to include in your pitch? Why are there more opportunities for writers now? Chrissy Metge talks about these questions and more. In the intro, the US Justice Department sues to block the Penguin Random House acquisition of Simon & Schuster [The Guardian]; […] The post Pitching A Book For Film Or TV With Chrissy Metge first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Creatokia is one of the first book-specific NFT platforms and in this interview, co-founders Jens Klingelhöfer and John Ruhrmann explain what NFTs are and why they are an opportunity for authors and rights-holders. They are also the co-founders of Bookwire, which already provides digital publishing solutions for the publishing industry. After the interview, I reflect on […] The post Creatokia. The World Of Digital Originals (NFTs) With Jens Klingelhöfer and John Ruhrmann first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can we balance creative passion projects with work that brings in an income? What are the different types of poetry and how can we bring them alive through the spoken word? Mark McGuinness talks about how poetry is at the center of his universe, fueling his creativity as well as informing his coaching business. […] The post Writing And Podcasting Poetry With Mark McGuinness first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the different ways that authors can use NFTs to reach readers and earn money with blockchain technology? How can we address the fear, uncertainty, and doubt that is inevitable when faced with new technological options? Jessica Artemisia Mathieu explains some of the business models with NFTs. In the intro, and in a longer […] The post The Ownership Economy. Business Models Around NFTs With Jessica Artemisia first appeared on The Creative Penn.

On July 4, 2020, Kory Shrum received two phone calls. One from her uncle, saying her mother was found dead in her bedroom from an overdose. A second from a homicide detective saying he believes it was murder—and her uncle is the suspect. In this interview, Kory talks about how she turned her trauma into […] The post Who Killed My Mother? Writing And Podcasting True Crime Memoir With Kory Shrum first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do you research a book in the most appropriate way? How can you keep track of your sources and attribute them correctly, as well as avoiding inadvertent plagiarism? How can you get your book/s into libraries? Vikki Carter talks about all these questions and more. In the intro, Has Amazon Changed Fiction? [New Republic]; […] The post How to Research Your Book With Vikki Carter, The Author’s Librarian first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can anthropology — the study of human cultures — teach us to build richer and more convincing worlds for our stories? What questions do we need to ask of our characters and settings to bring them alive? Michael Kilman talks about how anthropology can help with world-building in this episode. In the intro, the […] The post Build Better Worlds: Anthropology For Writers With Michael Kilman first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you use elements of mystery to hook your readers, regardless of the genre you write? How can you make sure your writing process prevents errors or plagiarism? Jonah Lehrer covers these aspects and more. In the intro, KDP Print available in hardback; Bookvolts book-specific NFT platform [Medium]; Books for writers in the NaNoWriMo […] The post How To Use Mystery To Hook Your Readers With Jonah Lehrer first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you expand your creative and financial opportunities with audiobooks and podcasting? Will Dages from Findaway Voices talks about options as well as introducing the new Marketplace. Will Dages is the head of Findaway Voices, which helps authors produce and distribute audiobooks to a global network of platforms and listeners. You can listen above […] The post Opportunities For Audiobooks And Introducing The Findaway Voices Marketplace With Will Dages first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you be a more relaxed author when there is always so much more to do? How can you co-write a book and retain different voices in written text as well as audio? Mark Leslie Lefebvre and I discuss how we co-wrote The Relaxed Author and how we’re publishing and marketing it. In the […] The post Co-Writing The Relaxed Author with Mark Leslie Lefebvre first appeared on The Creative Penn.

The opportunities for creation and marketing in audio format continue to expand and the lines are blurring between audiobooks, podcasts and other forms of audio storytelling. In this episode, Sarah Werner talks about writing for audio first and the challenges of full-cast audio drama and podcast fiction. In the intro, problems with publishing distribution and […] The post Writing And Producing Audio Drama And Podcast Fiction With Sarah Werner first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What are the different types of travel books and how can you blend them within the genre? How can we tackle our imposter syndrome when writing in a genre we love? Jeremy Bassetti explores these questions and more in today's show. In the intro, my 10-year author entrepreneur lessons learned; the different stages of an author business [Ask Alli]; London: A Personal History. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at www.draft2digital.com/penn Jeremy Bassetti is a travel writer, editor, teacher, and author of historical fiction. He's the host of two podcasts, Travel Writing World and Sonus Loci: The Sound of Place. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.  Show Notes What drives the human desire for travel?The different types of travel books. Jeremy has a great article on this: 10 Travel Book Sub-Genres with ExamplesIs an emotional journey necessary in a travel memoir?How nature writing and travel writing overlapPitfalls to watch out for in travel writingSensory descriptions that bring readers a richer experienceHow to deal with travel writer imposter syndrome — and how practice can help you break through it (and I have some personal reflections on this in the show introduction!) You can find Jeremy Bassetti at JeremyBassetti.com and on Twitter @jeremybassetti Transcript of Interview with Jeremy Bassetti Joanna: Jeremy Bassetti is a travel writer, editor, teacher, and author of historical fiction. He's the host of two podcasts, Travel Writing World and Sonus Loci: The Sound of Place. Welcome, Jeremy. Jeremy: Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here, Jo. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing. Jeremy: I'm a teacher and I've been doing academic research and writing for literally half of my life since university. My plan was always to turn my attention to creative writing, to creative nonfiction when I finished grad school. I always said that like I didn't want to be a secondary source. I wanted to be a primary source. I wanted to create the type of things that I was studying. But anyway, so that's what I did around 2015. I was studying and researching about the business and craft of writing in my free time and that's when I founded a podcast. I dabbled a little bit in self-publishing. I published a book, Denounced. It's a historical fiction set in Seville and Renaissance Spain. What I'm really interested in now is travel literature because I found out during the writing process of my historical fiction, I was drawing on a lot of my personal experiences living in Spain for that book and it dawned on me that this is a type of travel writing, I read and travel writing. This is what I'm interested in, that's my home. So I found my home in travel literature. That's where I belong. That's my story in a nutshell. Joanna: We met a couple of years ago at Podcast Movement and share this love of travel and with my Books and Travel, we share our podcasts. We're both working towards our own travel memoirs, but as we speak, the pandemic goes on and on. And we're both passionate about travel. You mentioned setting a bit there, but maybe go a bit deeper on that. What do you think drives our desire to travel and how can traveling help our writing regardless of genre? Jeremy: I think travel springs from deep within us, movement and migration are part of the human experience now. It's in our DNA. We have legs, right? We walk and I think the modern travel industry plays off these instincts a little bit. Movement is a necessity, people follow food, right? They follow the herds and maybe people move for spiritual or economic necessities and reasons, but I'm not sure that that's travel. When those needs are met, I think what drives our desire to travel is adventure, or curiosity, or boredom or marketing agencies or something like that. I can speak for myself here, but what drives me and my desire to travel was a little bit of curiosity and I think a little bit of restlessness. You talk about from time to time, Jo, about refilling the creative well. And like you, I think I need routine, but I also need to break away from the familiar because I need to be inspired, and traveling exposes us to new people and places and things. And I think it's cliché to say this, but travel can be transformative and inspirational. So you asked about how can this help with writing? People say write what you know. And I think that the curious traveler knows a little bit more. Travel can expose us to new ideas, and experiences, and settings, and situations, places, and character can renew our energy to write and live. So I think it's inspirational, transformative, and it exposes us to much more. Joanna: Let's get into the different types of travel books and travel writing because on your podcast, ‘Travel Writing World,' you've interviewed loads of very famous travel writers. And, of course, I talk to a lot of people too and we both read a lot. What are the different sub-genres within the broad sense of travel? Jeremy: Right. I've tried to break it down. The travel genre or the travel writing genre are two different subgenres. And I'm not sure that that's the right term, but let's go with it. Sub-genres or frameworks, or I don't know, styles, they're different ones. I think that part of the reason why I did this was because like me, and I'm assuming other people too, we tend to conflate travel book and travel memoir as this one thing and if you read a lot of travel literature, you'll understand that there's much more diversity in terms of the styles of the books. Many people think of a travel-logue when they think of travel book or travel memoir. But I think they are distinct things. Sub-genres. So there are many and I've listed out maybe like 10 or something on a post on my website: 10 Travel Book Sub-Genres with Examples One of the main examples is what I like to call the quest or the mission. It's a sub-genre of travel book where the author subject traveler, he or she goes off in search of something or to go somewhere. There's an external motivating factor for the narrative or the book. One of the kind of common or most recent examples of this is a book by Sophy Roberts called The Lost Pianos of Siberia. In this book, Sophy travels throughout Siberia looking for an old piano for one of her friends. She's a Mongolian musician. The inciting incident of this book is Sophy is looking for a piano in Siberia, but the book branches out into Russian history, Siberian history, music history. So, from this quest, the book becomes something bigger or more meaningful than just the quest itself. Another one I like to call the journey. This is a style of travel book where just like the quest, but instead of searching for something external to the author, subject writer, that person is searching for something within. It's a book more about self-discovery than external discovery, if that makes any sense. I conflate this with a travel memoir. For me, the word memoir comes loaded with a lot of connotations. I think of a memoir as an intimate book, a book that deals with some kind of psychodrama, there's an intimacy there, memoir has a particular tone to it. And, for me, a travel memoir has the same tone of a memoir, but it's set within the context of a travel experience. When the book is about self-transformation or self-discovery, this is what I think of as a travel memoir. And my term for this is the journey. It's just a term to describe the same thing. Joanna: An example would be Wild by Cheryl Strayed or Eat, Pray, Love. Jeremy. Exactly. Joanna: Which have a travel element, but is a journey structure. Jeremy: Right. It's in three parts, right? In the title itself, it's a three-part. Eat, Pray, Love. Another great example of this is Peter Matheson's The Snow Leopard. On the surface, it's about him and a friend trying to spot one of these elusive snow leopards, but it's a book that's much more than that. There's an inner journey element to the book. Another one is what I like to call the mode or the method. And this is a type of travel book where the method of travel is front and center. So walking travel books are really fashionable of late. In these books, we expect the author to give us an account of what it's like to travel on foot, for example, or on train, or whatever the mode may be. One of the things that we notice when we read in the genre is that these, like I like to delineate any of these sub-genres nicely, but they're never really like that. The quest and the journey and the mode, these sub-genres are often blended together. So the quest can have an element of walking or the journey can have an element of the quest or whatever. They're blended in together. I think what is central to all of those is setting. The place. Readers of travel books want to read about the experience of traveling someplace. They want a sense of place. Joanna: Which is clearly super important. I think what's held me back for so long – and I'm interested in your thoughts on this. I've been thinking about a travel memoir for many, many years and the ones that are the famous ones, here in the UK, there's a big one at the moment, The Salt Path. Well, it was a big one a year ago or the year before. It's won all kinds of awards here and it's the journey of a couple of walking the South-West Coast Path, which is about 700 kilometers, something like that. It's a really big walk, but they start off homeless and kind of dying and then it's a transformation journey. Eat, Pray, Love, she starts off divorced and miserable and changes her life and then while there's the same, the sort of miserable, “my life is broken, I'm so unhappy.” And then the journey is this transformation to happy. I've been kind of stuck on this. I'm very happily married. I'm happy with my career. It's not like I'm going on a journey to try and go from miserable to happy. And also, I'm not climbing Everest, so it's not one of those just big journey things. Jeremy: The adventure. Yeah. Joanna: The adventure book. I feel like we maybe trap ourselves into thinking that it has to be from terrible place to “I'm fine again,” type of thing. What do you think about that emotional journey in the travel book? Is it necessary? Jeremy: I wouldn't say that it's necessary, but we're going back to this question of tone and an intention here. If it's part of your narrative, if it's part of your story, this kind of transformation, then yeah, have it be front and center. But I read many books, travel books that are travel-logues where the inner transformation or the inner journey isn't as front and center as it would be in the journey or travel and more type books, if that makes any sense. And that's totally fine, but some of the rewarding travel books indeed, famous ones are ones that have an element of inner transformation along with the external journey. Joanna: I think you can put the two within the same book. Although it's so funny, when you say travel-logue, again, there's this continuum, but on one hand, you've got the guidebook, which is this many miles from here to here and this is the history of the oldest building and this is where you should stay. That's the guidebook. And then, there's the middle ground of some discussion of the more emotional side, and then there's almost nothing to do with the practical elements along the way. What are you thinking in terms of your travel writing? Jeremy: We didn't mention this earlier in terms of one of the sub-genres, but one of my favorites sub-genres of travel book is a sub-genre that I call the big idea book. This is a book where the writer has a big idea and he or she travels to different parts of the world or different places to investigate that idea. It doesn't have a traditional narrative, not necessarily that we find in the quest or the journey narrative books, doesn't have that arc necessarily. But the reason why I like it is because it deals with ideas, it's heady, it's a different type of book. So the type of things that I'm working on and the other books that pulled me are these kind of big-idea books. A great example of this is MacFarlane's book, Underland. Joanna: One of my favorite books. Jeremy: In this book, this idea of kind of subterranean spaces and the author goes to different subterranean spaces broadly defined around the world. And so that's really interesting to me. Another great book, I don't know if you've heard of this one, it's Cal Flyn's Islands of Abandonment. Have you heard of that one? Joanna: I have heard of it. Someone's recommended that one. I haven't read it. Jeremy: It's a great book. The author, I think she lives in Oregon. She's exploring spaces around the world that have been abandoned by humans. It's a fascinating premise for a travel book, but necessarily, she bounces around to different places, investigating this idea of human abandonment. That's an awesome travel book. Joanna: I've got another one for you. Smoke Gets in Your Eyes — (I actually meant From Here to Eternity: Traveling the World to Find the Good Death) by Caitlin Doughty. And it's all about death culture in different places. Jeremy: That's great. Joanna: I like this big idea travel book, and with people listening, you and I are total geeks in the travel genre. You could say Underland actually fits within the nature writing niche as much as it fits. And, in fact, maybe they put that in travel because he has written a lot more travel books, but actually, it could be in geology, it could be in geography, in that way. So I think to encourage people listening and what I found, I think, in the interviews, I've done for Books and Travel Podcast is that I've learned more about these structures and it's helped me think, what kind of structure do I want to write? Could I write? And in that way, in fact, I've just been thinking about this, is that I've got one kind of memoir in my head. I also want to write a more list-type book around English pilgrimages which would contain a lot more practical stuff that I don't really want to put in a memoir. Jeremy: Right. I want to circle back here about something you said about MacFarlane's book being more nature writing. This is one of the things that people have been talking about lately, is that the travel writing is, I don't know if being absorbed is the right word, but there's a conflation between travel writing and nature writing, which one is it? It can be both. And that's fine. When you think about travel writing, it doesn't always need to deal with trains and planes and automobiles. It doesn't always need to deal with culture. It can deal with nature or other frameworks. I think that one of the beauties of travel writing is that it's a chameleon. It takes on different forms, it's forever changing and transforming. It's a wonderful space to be in. But back to this other point about the English pilgrimage idea that you have. I think those would be more service-oriented type of travel books, like the guide books that you mentioned earlier. And, of course, personal narrative can be sprinkled into it, but it's fundamentally a different type of book. Joanna: Absolutely. And just practical things where you find things out. And I think because my non-fiction genre is for self-help, I want to help people make the journeys in a way that is useful, but those things don't fit within a memoir. What's hilarious is it looks like at the moment, what I thought was one book is turning into two or three different things and I'm putting different things in different Scrivener projects. Which is really interesting. We've talked about a lot of the things there that we like in travel books, but again, we both read a lot of them. What do you think are some of the common weaknesses that will bring a book down in some way and any thoughts on fixing those? Jeremy: I'm speaking from personal preference here, but what I find to be one of the main weaknesses in travel writing is the over-reliance on the travel-logue. And by that I mean books that are just step-by-step accounts of a vacation with no story or substance, it's like one croissant or bad hotel after another. It gets tedious a little bit for me personally. I know some people who love that style, but personally, I don't. One of the things I think it's helpful here is to think about, and we're going to go into nerd land here for a minute, but I think it's helpful to think about the definitions of vacation and travel or the etymology of these words. Vacation, think about that word. It means empty. It means emptiness in some ways. And I think this might be interesting to you, Jo, but this is one of the earliest examples of this word in English languages is in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales and it deals with ‘The Wife of Bath.' And I know you live in the Bath. Joanna: I live in Bath. I am a wife in Bath. Jeremy: One of her husbands, I think he's a misogynist and gets pushed into fire, but he's reading a book, the Book of Wikked Wyves and they mentioned something about he's reading this book when he had leisure and vacation from worldly occupation. So vacation literally is defined in the opposition of work. When someone is not working, whereas in travel, travail literally means work. It means difficulty. It means a burden in French. Travail means work. So these are opposing ideas. Narratives about leisure without tension, or complication, or burdens, or difficulties are sometimes boring to read. But narratives with some sort of work involves personal work, personal struggle of a memoir, or somebody in Mount Everest or whatever, or books that take a great deal of time and work to craft and write. Sometimes those are a little bit more interesting to me. So weaknesses, I think, is just like this, you know, step-by-step croissant account. You know what I mean? Joanna: I totally know what you mean. And it's so funny because – I'm not going to say the name of this – but when I had laser eye surgery a few years back, and, of course, you can't open your eyes for a few days. And so I listened to a lot of audiobooks. And, in fact, again, when I had COVID recently, I listened to these travelogues day by day, by day. “I got up and this was my view and we were walking” kind of things. “I walked from here to here” because while I'm in bed and can't do anything, I like to hear the step-by-step journey and try and imagine looking out at the sea or whatever. I didn't really want to have the emotional angst side of it. And then once I'm fine again, I like the deeper, more meaningful memoir-y thoughts. I agree with you in terms of the poorest travel books, I think the ones where they haven't edited for theme, or metaphor, or meaning. I think the worst travel book could probably be made better by a good edit and cutting out a lot of the extraneous stuff. And as I said, editing for theme, or meaning, or something like that. Every single travel experience could have that, couldn't it? Jeremy: Right. I know what you mean. It gets tedious to read about how a beer was the most delicious beer someone has ever had, but I don't want to like pooh-pooh the idea as you're mentioning here. If someone wants to write a travelogue, if they're compelled to write one, that's a completely legitimate creative outlet. Writing about your travels, I get it and that's fine, but I think a lot of good can come from thinking about story and thinking about structure and thinking about point and editing for editing for story and trying to craft together something that's interesting for someone else to read. Joanna: Absolutely. I'm going through a lot of my journals at the moment from various things and my journals are written for me. They're not full of things that are interesting for other people. But when I'm thinking about putting them into the travel book, I need to expand those and make them more travel-y. And actually, there's something I wanted to ask you because you've got this interesting podcast, ‘Sonus Loci: The Sound of Place‘ and what we need in, I think, a good a travel book, like we mentioned, Underland, sensory detail is critical in bringing a book alive, especially when it's an environment where you can't even really imagine what it might feel like. What is your fascination with sound and how do we bring in these sensory details into our writing? Jeremy: Thanks for mentioning that other podcast, ‘Sonus Loci,' we Americans pronounce it Loci, but it's L-O-C-I. It's a podcast for me where I publish soundscapes from travel. I had these cool binaural microphones and they go in my ear as if they're earphones, but they're not earphones. They're recording sounds as naturally as possible. I started to do this so I could force myself to slow down and pay attention to the world a little bit more. I live in Florida, not so far from the beach and one of my pet peeves is when people go to the beach, they bring their radios and it seems like they do whatever it takes to pull them away from the space that they're in. I get it. I love to jam to tunes, but I found that the silence that people dislike isn't really silent at all if it's filled with sounds. It's an exercise in paying attention. But sounds, like everything else, I think, they're the raw data for the writer just like any other sensation. And I think sound is really tricky to write about. I think the point or the trick is to not overuse it, but to sprinkle it in along with the other senses to give a full portrait of a place. Sound is a way to give life and credibility and texture to the writing. And as I think you can agree, like it seems to be missing in a lot of writing. Joanna: Smell I find very difficult and again, can be super overused and it is difficult because often the word that you come up with is kind of the same word. And if you want to explain it without using the same word, it has to be different. But I also think you can do sound through action. So, for example, Jeremy put the kettle on, to me, does bring sound into the writing because we all know what a kettle boiling sounds like. Jeremy: It's suggested. Joanna: Yes. Suggested rather than like here in Bath, we're inland but we have really noisy seagulls down by the abbey. And this is a very unusual thing in this area. If I was writing about Bath saying the sound of seagulls playing with the rubbish at 4:00 a.m. is actually a unique sound for this area, which makes it more interesting than mentioning maybe the seagulls by the sea. I don't know. It's difficult. Jeremy: It's difficult and you're right. You're completely right. People can suggest sounds by writing about things in the environment, but people could also use onomatopoeia to great effect in the story or to describe it things like the rattle, and the hissing, and the gurgling of things. The trick again is not to overuse it, but how great can sounds be? Sound is so important to travel like going to a country in the Middle Eastern or North Africa and you hear like the morning called to prayer. You don't need to mention that every day of your travelogue or every day of your book for whatever genre you're writing about. But by mentioning that it's something that can transport you into the place. And you don't need to reinforce us all the time, but you can just mention the prayer hour or whatever. Suggesting the sound, I think, is a good way about. Joanna: Definitely. I find it so interesting. Often, as I'm writing things, I'm going back to places. It's so great now, I can go back to a place on Google Earth to have a look or I can go on YouTube and I can probably find a video of some street over like of Souk in the Middle East and you can pick up things that you didn't pick up the first time. I do personally read a lot of travel books to mine them for ideas for my own writing as we do with any genre and how things are described. Underland I've got in e-book, and hardback, and audiobook and I just listen to it. I did want to ask you, because I feel like we both are suffering from this and which is a little bit of imposter syndrome around travel writing because we have both read and talk to people who write what is frankly, award-winning literature. I always feel like it's how I felt before I wrote my first thriller, which is, “oh, I'm only allowed to write a book if it wins a prize or some kind of a famous publisher publishes it.” How do you feel about imposter syndrome in the travel niche? Jeremy: Part of the tension, I think, that you and I both feel is we want to write about our experiences, but we also want to write something that's good and meaningful for other people. And sometimes that can get in the way of execution or actually writing the darn book. Just the analysis paralysis or the imposter syndrome, stopping us in our tracks and preventing us from doing the work of actually writing because we're interested in the prize or whatever fantasy we have in our minds about the book being good. It's certainly something that gets in my way. And part of the other issue here with travel writing, Jo, and I'm sure you'll understand this, is that the travel writing is a broad genre that we see a lot of it in print publications and that type of media for journalists and that world is lock and key behind gatekeepers. You have to pitch to publications and editors and most of the time they reject your work. Travel writers are bombarded with rejection on a daily basis. And that can be humiliating in some ways. It can make us feel like we're not up to snuff or writing good quality work, whatever that means. So it's something that I think travel writers feel very strongly about. What do you think about that? Joanna: I definitely struggled, but I think I'm getting to the point where I want to do it. And I think the pandemic's helped in terms of, I always say memento mori, remember you're going to die, but I've definitely felt it more this year. When I lay in my bed with COVID, I was like, ‘Oh, I'd be so annoyed if I die right now.' I have a few books that I want to write before I die and I'm like, ‘I should just get on with that.' And walking the Camino, I've wanted to do that for so long and it's time to stop putting off. Perfect is the enemy of good. And the other thing is, I think, is the acknowledgment. I've learned this from memoir writers too, is that, that one memoir does not need to be the only one. And I think for you and for me, we love travel and writing. This first travel book doesn't need to be the last travel book. So it doesn't need to be the book that represents your entire life. In fact, coming back to Macfarlane again with Underland, he's written a ton of other books, but that one seems to have hit a chord with so many people and perhaps because it's quite different. I clearly want to interview you on Books and Travel to share about your travel book. So how are you going to get over this? Jeremy: I think like many of us, the pandemic proved to be complicated. It gave me some complications in my plans. In fact, right now I'm supposed to be in China. I've had this sabbatical thing. So what I'm doing to get on – I still have, like you, many ideas swirling around. I have many different Scrivener projects. So there's always forward movement on one project or another. What I'm doing to bide my time now is research. And just for the type of travel books that I like, these big idea books, they're rooted in research and history. So I've been trying to do most of that now while I'm stuck at home and not traveling. I'm kind of deep in it with research and history and, in fact, language study as well because I was supposed to go to China, so I'm studying a little bit of Chinese to help me with that. So there are things that you can do, I think to bide the time when you can't travel because of pandemic or whatever reason, you can do research for the book that's swirling in your mind. Joanna: Absolutely. And I think practice. I've been doing solo shows. In fact, I was writing this morning. I've got a personal solo podcast episode on London coming, which is incredibly hard to boil down London to one episode, but it's almost like I'm practicing for the travel book. So I think that's good too. I did want to ask a final question around podcasting because both of us obviously have travel podcasts. We both get a lot of pitches, obviously. Do you think podcast interviews help sell books? And if people do write travel, what are your tips on pitching? Jeremy: Short answer is yes. I just want to circle back if we have the time to talk about this idea of practice that you mentioned. I'm not avoiding your question. Joanna: Oh, yeah. Go for that. Jeremy: The idea of practice, I think, that's an excellent point to bring up because you don't need to be somewhere exotic or whatever to practice writing, or doing the work. When I go for my walks, I bring my recorder with me and I'm recording sounds, of course, but I'm also dictating the experience of what it's like to be in a place. And that can be a form of practice. A form of practice of dictation, but also a practice of observation. Place-making is so important to travel books and if you're not paying attention to what a place is like and you're not practicing, describing, or communicating that sensation to other people, then perhaps you're not doing a travel book. That's such a core element to the travel writing experience that it serves you, I think, good to practice on a daily basis or whenever you can. So in interviewing and pitching yeah, absolutely. Podcasts and books. It's part of the machinery of marketing. Our podcasts are a part of this machinery too, in terms of content marketing. But also more importantly for the guests. This is exposure marketing and it certainly helps sell books. And how, or why, I think it's a good example. You often talk about, Jo, when you were in, I think, Australia and you self-published your first book and I think you had the books in your garage and you went on all the news outlets and you were talking to people on the radio stations trying to pitch and promote your book. But those audiences have such a kind of vast listenership or such a wide audience that very small percentage of those listeners will actually have any preexisting interest in the subject that you're talking about. But if you come on your podcast, Books and Travel, or my podcast, Travel Writing World to talk about your travel book, 100% of those listeners will be interested in the subject. It's a dedicated audience of built-in and interested in your work. Absolutely, it's going to help to sell books. In terms of pitching I'm sure you get it a lot. ‘Hey, I published a book. I'm available to be interviewed.' That's probably not the good way to do it, for me. I don't know about you. I like emails that spell out as much as possible, potential topics, links to the author's website and books; just as much information as possible so that we're not doing extra work to dig around and do research on it. You're busy, I'm busy, as much help as possible in that email is tremendous help. What do you think about that? Joanna: Especially because our travel podcasts are not monetized either of us. I have to spend time and money and energy on that podcast. So the more you can give me in a pitch, the better. And, in fact, someone needs to have listened or understand a bit about us, our characters or whatever, or what we're interested in. So for my Books and Travel, it better be an angle that I haven't covered. I've just had six pitches for Portugal in a row and I've done several episodes. And I'm like, ‘Well, could you pitch me again in a year because I've already done two on Portugal and I'd really like to do some other things?' Whereas, one lady, pitched me about Djibouti in Africa and I was like, ‘Okay. Yeah. Totally. You don't even need to say anything more. I want to talk about Djibouti.' And I'm like yes. Jeremy: You had me at Djibouti. Joanna: Yes. Because most people, we have to find that on a map and that's cool. Jeremy: I totally know what you mean. On my podcast, one of my angles is that we talk about the books but we also talk about the business and the craft side of travel writing and the pitches that don't address that part of the show, it doesn't mean that they haven't listened to the show, but maybe they don't understand what the show is trying to do. The pitches that do have that element in them show me that the person that's pitching actually listens and gets what's going on and those rise to the top in terms of priority. Joanna: Exactly. Because at the end of the day, we're doing this because we are passionate about it and love it and we want to just have a good conversation with people. And also, you mentioned curiosity earlier. It is about curiosity and I come away going, ‘Oh yeah, that was really cool. I want to visit that place and read those books.' And that's just awesome. Jeremy: Totally. Joanna: We can talk about this forever, but tell people where they can find you and everything you do online. Jeremy: The best place to go is my personal website. It's my first and last name. So jeremybassetti.com. Or if that's too hard to remember, my website, travelwritingworld.com has links to everything there as well. You can find me on Twitter, on Instagram. I'm in all the places, but I think jeremybassetti.com or travelwritingworld.com will be the best place. Joanna: Fantastic. And you have a really good freebie on ‘Travel Writing World.' And I was saying to you before we started recording, you should publish that. So people should go get that for free at ‘Travel Writing World.' Thanks so much for your time, Jeremy. That was great. Jeremy: Thanks for having me, Jo.The post Travel Writing With Jeremy Bassetti first appeared on The Creative Penn.

We all have different strengths as writers, but sometimes we don't know what they are. Or we get frustrated because we try to succeed at something that just won't work for our personality. In this interview, Becca Syme explains how our strengths can help us and how to ‘question the premise' whenever we face different career choices and varied writing advice. In the intro, 14 Reasons Agenting is Harder Now than 20 Years Ago [Kristin Nelson]; Salman Rushdie will release his novel on SubStack [The Guardian]; Tree of Life on special; Transience and Permanence on the Pilgrim's Way [Sacred Steps] This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.  Becca Syme is an author, coach, and creator of the Better-Faster Academy. She is a USA Today bestselling author of small-town romance and cozy mystery and also writes the ‘Dear Writer' series of non-fiction books. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Lessons learned from burnoutWhy we need to be aware of how we spend energyQuestioning the premiseHow knowing our individual strengths can help us as writers. Becca and her team specialize in the Clifton Strengths assessment and coaching. You can also just do the assessment at Gallup, but it's not specifically for writers. [If you're interested, my top 5 strengths are Learner, Intellection, Strategic, Input, and Futuristic.] How Becca uses video for content marketing and prefers word of mouth to ads for her business. You can find Becca Syme at BetterFasterAcademy.com and on Twitter @beck_a_tron. Check out her QuitCast on YouTube. Transcript of Interview with Becca Syme Joanna: Becca Syme is an author, coach, and creator of the Better-Faster Academy. She is a USA Today bestselling author of small-town romance and cozy mystery, and also writes the ‘Dear Writer' series of non-fiction books. Welcome, Becca. Becca: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Joanna: I'm looking forward to talking to you. Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing. Becca: I've been one of those people who wanted to write my whole life. But I actually got into writing romance specifically because I was a reader. Because I loved reading and I loved the stories and the characters. So I definitely came to writing from a love of reading and then realized just how much I actually love the process. Beginning to end, I just love the process of writing books. And so I started full time in 2012, 2013, and then just never looked back. I really love it. Joanna: Did you have a previous career? Becca: I did. What I'm doing now in terms of I write fiction and nonfiction. The nonfiction is really aligned with what I used to do. Which is a combination of strategic leadership development, consulting, or leadership in nonprofits. My background is very much in what I'm currently doing with writers, which is success alignment and strengths coaching. We use the CliftonStrengths program. I've been a certified CliftonStrengths coach for almost 16 years now. That's definitely what I loved doing before I was writing, and then I fell into doing it with writers after I became a fiction writer because there was so much need for people to understand how and why they're successful. It's not something that's innate for a lot of us and so I found that there was a big need for that, and fell into that second career after also having been a fiction writer. Joanna: I've read a number of your books. And in Dear Writer, You Need to Quit. Which, it's a very provocative title… Becca: Right. Joanna: …which I'm sure you designed on purpose! But I think it's very interesting. And, of course, you go through a number of different things that writers should think about quitting. But you talk about how you burned out. Can you talk about that experience of burnout and how you got through that process in order to change things? Becca: The way that I burned out initially, I was an executive director at a nonprofit at a very young age and I didn't understand that there was an end to energy. I didn't understand that you couldn't just keep overworking. I think a lot of us are like that. We learn about burnout from having burned out. What I realized through that experience, the initial burnout that I went through which was very devastating. I was not able to, really, even get up off the floor out of bed. It was a very, very thorough burnout. But what I learned was that there is an end to how much energy I can expend. And if I'm not cautious about how I expend energy over time, that I'm going to end up right back there. Because, of course, I burned out again in 2013. There is absolutely a learning curve to burnout. But I feel like the key for me was the knowledge that if you can steward your energy, then burnout is not inevitable even for people who work hard, who ‘Phoenix' like that. Who work really, really hard and then burn hot, and then need to recover a little bit. You can still not ‘burnout' where you just can't work if you're cautious about how you stored your energy. Joanna: I think I'm one of those people. I tend to work super, super, super, super hard and then I sleep a lot. Like, I'm a 9, 10-hour night girl. Which I'm very lucky to do and then I can go at quite a high pace when I do go. But, just coming back, again, to, you said 2013 then, so that was when you had gone full time? Becca: Mm-hmm. Joanna: And I feel like in the indie community, there are some behaviors that can lead to this kind of burnout. What was it specifically for you? Becca: It was definitely the thought that I had to keep up with what everyone else was doing. And I think the whole concept for me of watching what other people do and trying to copycat them is one of the things that I think gets us in the most trouble as an indie community. There is a very small segment of personality-driven people who are personality wired to look at other people and copycat them but it's like 12% of the entire population. Most of us should not be copycatting other people. And I think there's this mentality and a lot of success studying that says, ‘If I copy what people are doing, then I'm going to have their results.' So if someone is writing, 8,000, 10,000, 12,000, 20,000 words a day or a week, that, that is how they are successful. I didn't realize that, that wasn't the case. Because, of course, that's not my pace. And I needed to learn how to own that, the fact that it wasn't my pace. But I came into the industry looking at, ‘What are all these successful people doing and how do I copy their actions to get their results?' That so rarely works for people. And we don't ever question like, ‘Well, why doesn't that work for me? Is it because I'm lazy or stupid?' No, it's because you're different than them and you have a different success pattern. So I had to learn that the hard way. Joanna: I think a lot of people are learning that. And, actually, in fact, just today on Twitter, a writer friend of mine put up a tweet saying, ‘Is anyone else just feeling…?' I mean, people use the term burnout and I think that that means a certain thing. But at this point, I didn't want to mention the virus but here I go! Becca: Right. Joanna: But in the pandemic, we're 18 months, 20 months in, we feel this kind of exhaustion in our creativity. Now, last year in 2020, I did something like six books because I was driven. I was really driven. And this year I feel like I'm just not. I feel like a lot of that is exhaustion. And I don't think it's necessarily burnout, but I feel, maybe, creatively, we haven't been able to fill the creative well or anything like that. Becca: Yes. Joanna: So I feel like we need to talk about, ‘It's okay to feel like this.' Becca: Yeah. Joanna: Rather than, ‘You just have to muscle through'. Becca: It's not weird for us to feel this exhausted. Not just that it's normal in the pandemic. In any pandemic, it's normal to reach pandemic fatigue. That's well documented. Additionally, if you think about the concept of what it means to spend energy, we don't often think about the fact that we also need to get energy from somewhere. Because we do make energy when we sleep, when we eat, when we have fun, when we research or learn, when we do all of these different things, but we're not as aware of it as we are of how we spend energy. So let's say you had 1,000 pennies of energy over the last 20 months to write, and you had been spending all of them but never creating any more. Then at some point, and I'll talk about this in a second, you've been spending them but not creating any, or you reach the end of the extra. The leftover that you had. Then it's completely normal to feel like, ‘I am out. I'm tapped, I can't.' And then what we need to do is think, ‘That's not weird, it's not bad, it's not abnormal.' It's that what used to cost us one penny to do now costs us five. So it used to cost me one penny to open Twitter, or Facebook, or Instagram and now I have to spend more energy because I'm either seeing something that makes me frustrated or watching someone else's success and getting, ‘Why can't I have that?' I'm fighting more against different things than I used to be, so even just one simple thing can cost me more energy than it used to. Think about how we used to go to the grocery store. It was so easy to go to the grocery store we didn't even think about it. Now, we think about it. It costs us more to do those things. So, of course, we're more expended than we were. All we need to do is just think about, ‘Okay, how do I get more creative energy? Do I need to read books, do I need to watch Netflix, do I need to talk to other writers? What is it that's going to fill those pennies in my bank so that I have them to spend because it's going to cost more to do those things now?' Joanna: That's a good analogy. And for me, my fiction comes from my travels and I'm completely exhausted, as in, my pennies are exhausted. Becca: Wow. Joanna: As this goes now, hopefully, I'll be finished. But I was writing a novel. And, in fact, yesterday when I was sitting trying to figure out why the hell I couldn't write? And then I was like: ‘Do you know what? I'm just tapped out of ideas so it's going to be a novella.' And that's a good way to deal with it. Becca: I love that. And also, is there a way to simulate the travel that you used to get? So not necessarily just watching a movie, but, could you experience something new of your high input or high individualization or something like that in the Clifton Strengths which is the personality assessment we use? You have a higher need for new and different than other people. And so if you have that higher need, that it's good to try and find some places. ‘Where can I research, or watch a documentary, or talk to a person who lives in a place I've never been to? Look at pictures, experience something that I've never experienced before.' Because if your energy for writing comes from that new and different energy, then you'll absolutely run out of it when it runs out. And then, can we look for alternative sources of that? Joanna: In the book Dear Writer, You Need to Quit, you have this key recommendation which is, ‘Quit accepting the premise.' And you use that a lot in what you talk about and I really love it. What can that be applied to and how can we use it to improve our experience as an author? Becca: So accepting the premise is, well, first of all, when I hear something, I assume it's true because I've heard it a lot. And, honestly, a lot of us believe things because either they rhyme or they're symmetrical. Think about something like, ‘A penny saved is a penny earned.' How often have we heard that? But it's not actually true. If you save a penny, yes, you have an extra penny but you didn't earn that penny, you didn't do anything to get it, right? So that type of questioning the premise, like, ‘You should work eight hours a day.' Do you actually know where the concept of the eight-hour workday comes from and why it's applied? It actually doesn't apply to fields at all like creativity. In fact, there's the colloquial joke about, ‘Where does the eight-hour workday come from?' One of the industrial revolution fathers actually said that people should work eight hours a day, they should sleep eight hours a day, and they should shop eight hours a day. Joanna: Yeah. Becca: So that's where the eight-hour workday comes from. It's an expectation that we're contributing to an economy somehow. Otherwise, you would work 20 hours a day, right? The eight hours is meant to balance economy. If you think about things like questioning the premise of, let's say for instance, ‘writers write.' Some writers think and some writers need to think to write. If I'm forcing myself to write just because somebody said writers write and it felt very resonant to me or they believed it a lot, they had a lot of certainty about it and I never think to question like, ‘Does that actually work for me?' Or, ‘You can't edit a blank page,' is another one. People edit blank pages in their head all the time. It's just, for about 50% of people, we found editing a blank page does not actually help them be more productive. But for about 50% of writers, it does help you be more productive if you allow yourself to edit before you write. So there's so much of this advice that we hear for writers that we just accept without thinking about it because the person who is telling us is either very certain and worth sensing their emotions of certainty or they sound smart or they're successful. We assume if they're successful, we should listen to what they say. And, again, it's not to say no one should give advice. That's definitely not what I'm saying. It's to say, when it doesn't work for you as an individual, don't assume you're at fault and you're stupid or unmotivated. Assume that that advice is not for you because no advice is for everyone. Joanna: I almost think that by questioning the premise, you're trying to boil down where people are coming from. So, for example, ‘You must have an agent and a traditional publisher,' is a particular premise for a type of author career. Or, ‘You must write fast and use KU,' is a different premise for a different author career. By questioning all of these things, you can shape your own path. I feel like too often, it's very hard, for new authors in particular, to know who to listen to and whose premise to accept. I guess, people are listening to us right now or they've turned off. Becca: Right. Joanna: How do people find the appropriate people to listen to in order to get to that premise? Becca: I do think that there is some questioning that needs to happen of, ‘Why am I listening to this person?' If the only reason I'm listening to them is because they've sold a lot of books, then I want to make sure to listen for my own internal alignment. If they're talking about, ‘Don't edit as you go,' is the example I use a lot. If they're saying, ‘Don't edit as you go,' the reasons they might be saying that have to do with how their personality aligns with that particular strategy. If you're feeling that and hearing, ‘But, wait a minute, I need to do that in order to write effectively,' then you need to listen to your own intuition. And, again, I feel like it's so weird to say this out loud. But all of what successful people have learned, they've learned by trial and error. So it's not like there's some secret hidden code that they understand, they literally learned it by succeeding and failing themselves. And so some of it, and especially in younger or newer to a particular industry authors is, it's actually really good to succeed and fail sometimes because it's how you learn what works for you as well. But in terms of alignment, though, who should you listen to? Most people can tell pretty quickly when a particular piece of advice does not work for them. I've tried, and tried, and tried to dictate and literally just cannot. Because, and, again, for my personality, as an external processor, I don't know how to speak out loud in the same voice that I write in. It's not possible for me. So dictation will never work for me. And it's not a matter of me trying harder or me learning something. It's that, that's not a voice I can talk out loud in. So then I know that's not a capacity issue for me. It's not that I'm not good at something, it's just dictation is not for me. So I feel like I push trial and error as an intuition builder. But also, I do think listening to our own resonance is really important. When you hear someone who is not resonating with you but you feel like you have to listen to them for some reason, question that premise. Including me. Joanna: Exactly. Including me too. So it seems people are listening to us. I want to come back on the Clifton Strengths thing that you do. And it's so funny because I'd heard of this before and then my friend, and fellow author, and podcaster Sacha Black recommended it. She's done your course and she was like, ‘It's life-changing.' We'd had a few drinks at the time so I took that with a pinch of salt. But then I came home, and I was like, ‘I'm going to do this.' And I did it and it did truly, truly help me in terms of understanding aspects of my personality that I was getting frustrated with. Obviously, there were lots of these different personality tools. Tell us a bit about the Clifton Strengths in particular and why it's useful to people. Becca: And also, because there are so many personality tools, I do think that they can all be useful on some level in terms of either placing myself on a continuum somewhere. Because that's where a lot of my work and success alignment is about like, ‘Okay, so where do you fall on that continuum, how much of that trait do you have?' The reason I like the Clifton Strengths so much is that it specifically is about success. So it's not just like, ‘How am I wired or what are my preferences?' It's where can you expect the most success based on where millions of other successful people have indicated that their success also comes from? The top 10% of an industry because that's who Dr. Clifton went after when he was interviewing people to figure this out. A lot of personality tests that are out there are, one person has decided there's four kinds of people. And those can be helpful because they do apply to, by standard deviation, 68%, roughly, of people will fit into some realm of that. But it's not individual enough. What I love about Clifton Strengths is that there are 34 different possibilities and it's your areas of consistent near-perfect performance. But then also, you have five of them. And so it's very, very individualized to how your success will happen. One of my top strengths is input. I am the person who will google everything. If you have a question, I want to know the answer to it. I'm super curious. I have an interest level in so many different things. And the way that that impacts my writing is, I like to put little pieces of information into my writing or little unique things into my writing that are like Easter eggs for people who love high input. And a number of letters I get from people who are like, ‘Oh, my gosh, that one shoe designer from 1906.' From a book I wrote 12 years ago. Because it lights up input people, when they learn new pieces of information even from their fiction. A lot of us who are high input can feel like that's not a beneficial thing, but it's actually a way that you can stand out. And many of us who love to do that don't even realize that we do it. For instance, when you travel, your input is taking in all this information of all the things around you, the smells, the sights, what things look like, how you would describe them, what it feels like to be immersed in that place. And then when you write, you can write a sense of place in such a realistic way because your input is pulling all of those little details and will remember them. You'll file them into your memory and so that becomes more immersive. And you don't have to write very many words on the page for that to happen. It's not like you have to fill up with description. It's just when you write the detail, it'll be real, it will be resonant. And that's something not everyone can do. Joanna: And in my top five is Input as well. And Learner is my number one. And it's exactly what you say, my fiction is very detail-heavy about lots of things. It's not an info dump, but if I describe a setting of a cathedral, every single detail is exactly right. Becca: Yes. Joanna: I love all that, like you. And my readers appreciate the massive historical details and all of this type of stuff. And I love it, this is why I do what I do. Becca: Even your non-fiction. You're a learner input in your non-fiction as well. You gather information from reputable people and you learn. I remember reading your health book, and, writing with a doctor, and talking to the doctor about all of that. That's a very Input/Learner way of doing non-fiction which seems very commonsensical. And this is one of the things about strengths, it's so fascinating. Is like you might say, ‘Well, of course, you would do that because that just makes sense to do it that way, it's what you do.' And I would say, right. But most people wouldn't think to do that and that's what makes your work stand out. And this is the core, I think, of the Clifton Strengths, especially for writers is that what you do the most instinctively is often something that you would toss away. As a high Intellection, I think all the time. Well, of course, you do because that's just what you do, right? But did you know 58% of writers have intellection. So if you think deeply about something, if you iterate that over and over in your mind, you come to such clarity and certainty about that character plot concept setting detail, Strategy that you have a depth that other people are not able to reach because they don't have that strength. But it seems so commonsensical to those of us who are high Intellection because, ‘Well, of course, I would do that.' So part of Clifton Strengths is understanding just how unique and different you are from everyone else. And then, how to utilize those traits to be that successful, to be more successful than you are. To be that standout person. Joanna: It's funny because I mainly did it because I was feeling like, ‘Why don't I want a writer's group?' Some said, ‘Why don't I do a mastermind, or why don't I do coaching, or why don't I want to be in groups of people?' And I also was questioning whether I should be doing these futurist episodes for the podcast, because, frankly, they're not as popular as the main show. And I was like, ‘Should I do this?' Then I did this Clifton Strengths and Strategic and Futurist were in my top five. And, pretty much, all my bottom things were in relationship building. And I felt, and really, it was hilarious. And I was like, ‘This has helped me in knowing my strengths which are strategic and futuristic, but also my weaknesses which are around relationships.' Now, that doesn't mean I'm going to give up on relationships, but it just made me feel better about what I was feeling in terms of my career. Becca: Yeah. Joanna: Anything else on that? How should we treat those things that are at the bottom? Becca: We usually say ignore the bottom because it's just not where you're going to be strong. It doesn't necessarily mean you can't do those things. Like you're an incredibly warm person relationally, on a person-to-person level. And you're utilizing that effectively in your career. So it's not like you can't relate to people, that's just not where you lead, right? Joanna: Mm-hmm. Becca: So we always tell people to ignore the bottom because that's just not where your strong traits are going to be. But also to talk about the strategic and futuristic. Whether those episodes are popular today or not, and whether they're going to be popular a year from now. Most futuristic people are way ahead of where everyone is. What's so fascinating, we have a number one futuristic writer because paranormal women's fiction is really big right now, in 2021. And she was writing paranormal women's fiction about two years before anyone else was and it wasn't selling. And she was extremely frustrated by it. All of a sudden, the PWF big boom started. And we all pointed at that and we're like, ‘Oh, my gosh, you wrote paranormal women's fiction two years before anyone else did.' So as a futuristic, it's really common to be ahead of everybody else. Knowing that about yourself and knowing, ‘Hey, it's okay for me to be like that, I could potentially be on the leading edge of something.' Instead of feeling, ‘Not everybody's around me yet.' That might be a good thing. It might be how you stand out in your career. But I would bet those episodes will be popular once the middle adopters really start to listen to you, right? Joanna: Yes, once the world catches up. Becca: Yep. Joanna: It is frustrating when you feel like, ‘Oh, this is going to happen.' And people just ignore you for years. But the same happened with self-publishing and podcasting. Becca: Yes, exactly. Joanna: I feel like I've got a bit of history now. But coming back to what you do. Tell us a bit more about what your business looks like now and how you help writers particularly with this Clifton Strengths stuff and what you do. Becca: All of our Clifton Strengths stuff is coaching one-on-one. Because, as much as it's interesting to learn about strengths, it really isn't helpful to just learn the information. It can be helpful like with Joanna, because now Gallup has so many resources that are very individualized. So if you end up reading your full 34 report, it's now individualized completely to you based on all where your 34 rank. Which is something that they're able to do because they've been, now I think 50 years, into this research which is amazing. But, specifically, what we do is, we do a lot of coaching. One-on-one coaching. We do have some classes but they're more like here are the six parts of your writing life and how do we align you for success in each part of your life based on where you fall in different continuum metrics? That's our Write Better Faster. Specifically with the strengths, our goal is to customize success for everybody. Because I think that's where we see, I want to see 100% success. I want everybody who comes in to be able to figure out, ‘How am I going to be at my most successful?' And that's our business model, I guess, is very, very individualized. Which, similarly to what you were saying about, ‘Why am I not doing this, why am I not doing that?' I have a crisis of strategy every once in a while, when I realized, we don't have any evergreen classes. We don't have any short-form paid content. There are a lot of things that we just don't do because it doesn't align with who I am as a person. I want to individualize and customize everything. And so that's, very much, what my business model looks like. Is that the closest you'll get to evergreen is the ‘Quit Books,' the ‘Dear Writer' books. And even those are customized almost chapter by chapter to different people because they're about an individual person, they're almost like case studies. So that's, very much, my business model. I'm a number four individualization in the Clifton Strengths so I want everything to be for one person. Joanna: I'm just looking at mine now. I'm 17 for individualization so it's way down. I do find this so interesting and your books are excellent. I want to encourage people that they cannot come to your website and say, ‘Becca, teach me about ads.' Becca: Yes. That's definitely not something we do. Although, we did just start an intuitive ads program. But that's more because I feel like that's a missing personality trait. We're not actually teaching ad strategy, we're teaching intuitive personality decision-making. Because it's very different from non-intuitive or from concrete objective decision-making. We do have ads discussions. You will definitely not learn best practice strategy from Becca. I don't do that. Joanna: So, your business model, even though I don't do coaching and things. I'm the same as you in that I have non-fiction and I have fiction. Who does speaking anymore?! But at some point, that might come back in person post-pandemic. I still feel that's a bit like my podcast, it's individual to group as opposed to one-on-one like what you're doing. You've talked a bit about the business. In terms of encouraging people who might want to have these more multiple streams of income. I love that you decided not to be a full-time fiction author. How has your business model grown, and how can you encourage people who want to build a more holistic business model? Becca: I do think that, for most of us, I would say from a personality perspective, more than 60% of people will not function in a very linear business model. Just in terms of only doing one thing. Most of us have some form of one of the Clifton Strengths and I'll just name them, learner, individualization, input, context, strategic, adaptability, activator. If you have any of those strengths that are dominant in you, especially learner and input, you're not going to be satisfied long-term with only one thing. Let's say only one series, or only one genre even, or potentially only one business. So many of us have that, ‘I need that new and different, or I need something challenging, or I get bored quickly.' We feel like that's a weakness and it's not. It's actually a strength. And so I do think that the multiple streams of income concept is going to work for most people in terms of, it'll keep you engaged in something so that you can come back to. On a daily basis, I don't do only one business. Every single day, I do fiction, non-fiction, I still am working at a nonprofit. So I do some form every single day of those because I need the difference in order to stay engaged in all of the different projects. There's this idea that if you don't narrow down for every single person, that, somehow, you're not going to be long-term successful. But, actually, that's not true for everybody. And to a point where you may want to narrow down on a day-by-day basis. But many of us will actually be more engaged long term if we don't silo quite as much in terms of completely not doing anything else. There are many of us who are just made for that. I found, for myself especially, the multiple streams of income was less of a business strategy in terms of, it was not a money-making strategy; it was a sanity strategy. I wanted to do this, all of this as long as I could. I knew that I would burn out on it if I only did one thing. And I really did. The fiction, I definitely burned out on because it was just too much in one direction. Once I allowed myself to widen, I actually got a lot more focused in all of those different areas because of my particular personality. Again, roughly 60% of people will be dominant in some strength that requires them to have multiple focuses. Joanna: I hope that's making lots of people feel better. Becca: I hope so. Joanna: And I think that book ‘The ONE Thing' by Gary Keller caused so many people, so many issues. Becca: There are so many books like that, ‘Be Obsessed or Be Average.' There's a ton of these books that are all about, ‘You have to do only one thing.' And I would say, ‘Oh, right, some people do definitely.' There are people in the world. And it's not 60/40. It's more like 60% absolutely need to have multiple things, and about another 20% would be okay with one thing but probably not forever. And then there's about 20% of people who are just like, ‘You need to do only one thing and that will be your most successful.' Some of those people can do it forever because that's just how their personality is wired. But what we don't take into account so often is the lens through which people see things when they're giving advice. So this whole, ‘You should write every day or you should only do one thing.' All of those are lenses through which those experts see the world and it helps them to function better, but it doesn't necessarily help everyone to function better to do that thing. And so the, ‘Only do one thing,' is a perfect example. Just by personality alone, that's not true for everyone. Joanna: Super helpful. And then, I just wanted to ask you one thing about marketing. Given that we have a similar business model and we attract people to our businesses, but we're not necessarily doing paid ads for it. And, in fact, you have a chapter on ‘Quit thinking Facebook is your friend,' which is great. And even question the premise that social media is even necessary anymore. What have you found works for you in terms of attraction marketing for your business? Becca: Content is definitely king in our business just in terms of whenever we find that something is really helpful, we share it. I do both either in non-fiction form like written form or in verbal form, podcasts or YouTube videos. Because I do find that when you can provide the right kind of content for people, that's what they need and it's what they want. And so I feel like if the content is not helpful… Like, every single time I do any kind of public thing anywhere, I always say, ‘Go watch my YouTube channel. If you don't like it, like, you're not obligated to do anything else. Don't buy a book, or buy a class, or whatever. First watch the YouTube channel because you will be able to tell if we are a place for you or not by listening me talk.' As opposed to hooking people in with an ad or something. Not that that's bad, it's just, it really doesn't work for me. Because, for me, I would rather see the right people at the right time. And that always has to be about, ‘Is my content right for you or not?' I'm, very much, a person who, I would prefer word-of-mouth marketing to anything else, so I only want people to come to us if we have helped them or if they think that we will help them because of something they've read, or seen, or heard. Because, otherwise, having people just come to me if I'm not aligned with them, it's like, ‘Well, I'm not going to be able to help you if this doesn't resonate.' So, content is definitely our primary strategy. Joanna: That's awesome. And as someone who doesn't watch YouTube videos, I would also encourage people to read your books because I got Dear Writer, You Need to Quit. And the funny thing is, I've seen that book in, probably even in my also-boughts for years. And I hadn't read it until recently because, of course, in my head, I was like, ‘I don't need to quit anything.' But I had got it wrong. And, clearly, by reading your books and then several of the others, I'm like, ‘Yeah, that's quite a few things.' Becca: The pushback that I got when I first released it, of course, was I don't actually want any writers to quit writing unless that's really what they need to do for their sanity. But, in general, I think, the reason that I titled the books the way that I do… Like, I was just having a conversation with somebody this morning where they were asking me, ‘Why don't you have more strategic brandable titles? Why don't you say, ‘Here is how to be successful as an author?' And I'm like, ‘Well, because that's way too open loop for me. And it promises something that I don't know that I can deliver on.' One of my coaches says, ‘Here's what you do, Becca. You take this piece of gold, you put it in a box, you sink it to the bottom of the ocean, you cover it in cement, and then you expect people to be able to find it by the way that I title stuff.' And I'm like, ‘Well, yeah. That's okay because if somebody tells you, ‘Hey, there's this really cool piece of gold down there, you'll go look for it and then I don't get anybody who doesn't belong in the content.' I'm not just casting a wide net, but that's definitely a strategy on my personalities part. That is, I want to make sure that it's significant, that it makes a significant impact when people read it. So I definitely titled the book the way that I did so that you would only read it when it was the right time for you to find it. Joanna: I hope today we've brought up some gold from the depths and the people will go check out your stuff. Where can people find you and everything you do online? Becca: The easiest place is to go to is YouTube and to search for the Quit Cast, Q-U-I-T C-A-S-T. And, of course, if you're not a video person, which it's totally okay, not everybody is, definitely check out the ‘QuitBooks for Writers' on Amazon, or Kobo, or Barnes & Noble, or Apple. Wherever you like to buy books, because I'm an aggressively wide author. Please check out the content. And thanks so much for having me, this was a blast. Joanna: It's been so good to talk to you. Thank you so much, Becca. That was great.The post Author Mindset: Strengths For Writers With Becca Syme first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you design a story that branches into multiple directions? How does writing for games help with writing a novel? Ed McRae explains narrative design and the opportunities for writers in the gaming industry. In the intro, ‘the inevitable decline of open platforms' [Seth Godin]; pros and cons of different print distribution models [Adam Croft; ALLi]; Canterbury: A History of England Written in Stone. Do you need help with editing and cover design, marketing, or translations? Find a curated list of vetted professionals at the Reedsy marketplace, along with free training on writing, self-publishing, and book marketing. Check it out at: www.TheCreativePenn.com/reedsy Edwin McRae is a freelance narrative designer for the games industry. He's also a game design teacher, and writer of nonfiction for authors, including Narrative Design for Writers. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes What is narrative design in video games?Why is gaming important to the entertainment industry?How writing for games differs from writing a linear bookCreating many options for story beats and character actionsWriting like a readerThe skills needed to break into different areas of writing for gamesThe increased opportunities for writers with gaming, AI, VR and AR You can find Edwin McRae at EdMcRae.com and on Twitter @edmcraewriter Transcript of Interview with Edwin McRae Joanna: Edwin McRae is a freelance narrative designer for the games industry. He's also a game design teacher, and writer of nonfiction for authors, including Narrative Design for Writers. Welcome, Edwin. Edwin: Kia ora Joanna, and tena koutou to your audience. It's really cool to be here. Joanna: You should probably just explain that. Edwin: I just said, basically, ‘Hello,' and ‘Hello everyone,' in Maori. Joanna: It's because you're in New Zealand, right? Edwin: Exactly. Joanna: Just so everybody knows. Edwin: Yeah, it's quite nice. A lot of people here we try to use Te Reo, which is Te Reo Maori, in everyday conversation as much as possible these days. So, we're all gradually becoming bilingual. Joanna: Interesting. Tell us a bit more about how you got into writing and what your job actually is like. What is narrative design? Edwin: I'll start with the second part of that question, to discuss where I've got to. Narrative design is effectively the design of story elements that then go into video games. I steer away from the general term of writing for video games, because often within the industry, the games industry, writing gets siloed into things like dialogue and flavor text. And the player-facing material that you would see in a video game. Whereas narrative design, there's a lot more behind the scenes than that, creating the story experience for a video game, which I'm happy to elaborate on more what a story experience for a video game is. I started out writing a novel, pitched that around, almost got picked up by HarperCollins at one point, but to no avail. And then shifted to doing theater for a while, and then studied screenwriting for film. And then on that course, which is at Victoria University in Wellington, I managed to get a work placement on New Zealand's soap opera, ‘Shortland Street.' I ended up as a storyliner and script writer there for four years, which taught me a lot about churning out a lot of story and the best practices for that kind of fast-paced storytelling. And then I got to the end of my tenure with writing for soap opera, I wanted to do other things. I started to hang out with some game developers in Auckland at the time, at a game developers meetup, met the guys at Grinding Gear Games who make the game ‘Path of Exile.' They Facebook messaged me one day and said, ‘Hey, do you want to try writing some dialogue for us?' And then that kind of, the rest is history. Joanna: It's so interesting. You've done lots of different types of writing, obviously. But I wonder if you would also maybe start by giving us more of an overview of the gaming industry, because I feel like there's a lot of misconceptions. I'm 46, and a lot of the gaming I know would have been the really old games that were around 20 years ago when I watched my brother play things. But gaming is such a huge industry now compared to the author industry which is also part of entertainment, we're all part of that. Why is gaming so important in the entertainment industry? Give us an overview. Edwin: It's certainly become a large industry. It has eclipsed cinema as an industry. I was looking a few things up, I think cinema is around $110 billion, games are around $150 billion as an industry internationally, which you compare that to books. Publishing still sits around over $200 billion, but of that, books I think are around the $120 billion mark. I would see games as a platform being as large as the books industry pretty much at the moment. So it's certainly a significant thing out there. And interestingly, your average gamer, I was looking at, is apparently I think 34 years old, has children, and owns a house. So it's not the teenage stereotype that often is assumed with video gaming. Looking at various stats it ranges…for instance in Australia, 80% of gamers are over 18 and the U.S., 70% are over 18. So it's actually, it's quite a mature audience, and perhaps more mature than people might assume. Joanna: And what about the gender split? Because there used to be this sort of thing that it was mostly guys. From what I've read now, a lot of women are gaming, a lot of women getting into game design and things. And also there are educational games, it's not just shooting, is it? Edwin: Oh, absolutely. That's the curious thing with games. It's almost like referring to a game is the same as referring to a book, as a book can be anything from a thriller to a dad's joke book, could be horror to a kid's picture book. It's the same range with games, it can be everything from yes, your ‘Grand Theft Auto' and your ‘Call of Duty' shooters back right to…for instance there's a company here in Dunedin, Runaway Play, that makes effectively nature simulation games and games about cat cafes, and games about dog refuge centers. There's a full range within the type of games that are out there, there's really something for everyone. Joanna: There are obviously the high-end games where you need whole consoles and things, but then you see people playing games on their mobile phone. What kind of devices are people using now? Edwin: Exactly. And actually, I've realized I missed the gender question is that, but especially with mobile phone, the gender split is 50/50 in many countries, in fact, in most countries. So there is no bias either way with gaming. I think with mobile especially the female audiences is significantly larger, 60%, almost to 70%. Joanna: I find it fascinating, and definitely think things have changed. As you mentioned there, people, the ‘average' in inverted commas being 34 with children and a house, we're talking about people with money now. Some of these games, I would say they don't sound expensive. You might pay $70 or something for one of these really premium games, but then the amount of hours you can play that, it actually seems quite good value. There's obviously the cheap ones on the mobile, isn't there? The games I hear people talk about are these quite immersive ones. Edwin: They're the ones that get the most press is the really big ones like ‘Cyberpunk 2077,' or ‘Witcher 3,' or ‘Skyrim,' big games that you can explore for up to, oh gosh, 100 hours, 200 hours, 300 hours for some. But those are your larger titles that cost between say $50 to $100, $120. But then especially in the indie game dev scene, you'll get games that are anywhere from $2 to $20. And even in those, you'll tend to have a good 10 to 20 hours of gameplay in those. Again, it can be on mobile, it can be on PC, it can be on console. There's that epic, massive series that you can explore, there are short stories, and novellas in the game scene as well. So, again, it's a full range of experience on offer. Joanna: That is a really great overview. And as you said, a full range of experience. I think this experience idea and this idea of entertainment, I think sometimes we forget that as authors, we get into the book we're doing and we forget that out there people want entertainment, education, inspiration, and sometimes it doesn't matter what medium they get it from, and so I often feel that it's just a very different experience. Let's talk about writing then. Obviously, we can't talk about every different type, but it feels like it's a very different thing writing for an experience than it is for a sort of linear book. How does writing for these games differ from writing a linear book? Edwin: It absolutely is. I've written novels myself, and the experience I would liken it to is that it's almost like you're designing a sideshow ride, like if you were going to do like a horror themed train ride for a sideshow, that would be closer to what say a narrative designer does. So you're not necessarily writing a plot for the people to sit in the train and experience. It's more like you're thinking about what is the overall emotion I want them to experience? And in that case, it might be fear, shock, things like that. Then it's thinking about how can I create a cohesive world that these people can ride through and get a sense that everything fits together on this horror train, all the pieces work together to create an overall experience? In there are elements of story, there will be characters, there will be settings, there will be little bits of dialogue, there will be images and all sorts of elements that go into there. But the narrative designers job is more of that thinking of how do all these different pieces fit together, I guess I realized with the train example, that's actually, that's still linear. So in many respects that's still quite similar to say writing a novel; you're doing all of those things with writing a novel as well. You're thinking about setting, character, how you're going to describe the environment, the characters are moving through, how you describe the action and all of those elements. The tricky thing is then when the train starts to branch off into 10 possibilities, when the players get to a junction and go, ‘Okay, I've got 10 options here,' and somebody has to write each of those 10 options and what's going to happen in those options that's where it starts to get tricky and much more gamer like. Joanna: That's what fascinates me, because I did the ‘MasterClass' with James Patterson, have you seen that? Edwin: I've heard of it. Joanna: It's very, very good. Because obviously James Patterson being one of the top sellers in the world and whatever people think of his writing, the dude is obviously very successful. I did his ‘MasterClass' and that's one of the things he talks about. He's a plotter and an outliner, and does a lot of co-writing. But with every single thing, he comes up with several different ways that character could go and writes down those different things. So he'll be like, okay, like you said, call a junction point that might be does the character go this way and fight this person or go this way after this particular thing? It's fascinating to me that kind of planning, because I don't do that. I'm a discovery writer and in my head, there is only one line. I've heard Lee Child say this actually, it's like, this is what happens. And if he's told to make changes to his book, he's like, ‘No, that's what happens. There's only one way it happened and that's the way.' It's so interesting to me because what you're talking about is this, you have to write the 10 different options, and then the character gets to choose which way to go. So I guess my question here for you would be, so how do we come up with 10 or even 3 different options for each of these decision points? What are some of the tricks you use to come up with the different options? Edwin: It depends on the sort of game you're working on. I worked on a game called ‘Guardian Maia,' which is a dark fantasy, interactive fiction game that you play on a mobile device with a wahine, a woman, she's a warrior, Maori warrior, and you help her basically go through the story. But there are a lot of choices in that that you can make for Maia that will then alter the story. And so, the trick is always working out scope. Scope being how big do you want the story to be and how much writing do you actually want to do? And how much writing can the production team afford to pay you to do? At each decision point, what you do is you work out, ‘Is this decision going to be a massive decision that's going to change the world?' If so, then I need to think about how is it going to change the world, and then start to think about how much of that I'm going to show the player. But then you've got at the other end of the scale, if you want there to be decisions but them not to be earth-shattering, to completely change the world and therefore require a lot more writing, you can start to play around with tweaks in behavior, and tweaks in reactions from the world. For instance, in ‘Guardian Maia,' we had a thing called a mana counter. So mana being the Maori concept of self-esteem plus the esteem gained from others of respect. If you chose to interact with the characters in the story in generally positive ways, you tended to build mana. And then what I would write in is reactions from the other characters based on what Maia's mana score was at that time. So if it was high, they would treat her quite respectfully. If it was low, they might treat her with suspicion, they might be wary of her, they might be a little bit sarcastic with her. I could do that with, small, single lines that would change depending on what that mana score was. I did all of that in a tool called Ink Script, which for me is my favorite narrative design tool because it still feels like writing when I'm making things like that. So that's one trick is always thinking about how big an effect I want this option to have, and then thinking about the scope of the story as a whole. If I make this change, is it going to be massive? Is it going to require a lot of writing? Or can I make small tweaks that still have the world reacting to the player, but not necessarily having to write millions and millions of options. Joanna: That is interesting; a scale of how big the change is, because of course if you go this way and you kill off a character that makes a big difference to the rest of things. I've definitely written myself into issues where I'm like, ‘This character dies now.' And then I'm like, ‘Now what do I do?' Edwin: I've done exactly the same thing in my novels, because I'm also a discovery writer when I do novels. I think it's because I like to take a holiday from all the heavy planning I have to do with narrative design. But what's also quite cool is when I'm being a discovery writer, I feel like I can put myself in the player's position. Because, again, as a narrative designer, you're thinking about what do you want the player to discover? And it's the discovery that's enjoyable for the player a lot of the time, like ‘What's next? What am I going to experience next?' I listened to your episode about Sudowrite, and about this guy being in a laboratory, so, what you can do is as a novelist you can write out, and you can describe that whole laboratory. Now, when your character interacts with that laboratory, let's say there's a fight in there and you need to know things like, ‘What beaker is the hero going to smash over the villains head?' That kind of thing, or ‘What elements of the room are you going to use?' You can just write that through. But if you describe the entire laboratory, what you're doing is you are then setting it up so a player can explore all the elements of that laboratory without you having to guide them towards any sequence of how they do it or try and draw their attention to any paths. So it's that same sort of process when you go in and you've got to a setting you describe the whole thing. And then, of course there are constraints when you're working with an app theme or production budgets, like how much they can actually make, but as a principle, that's a good way to approach it. Describe the whole environment so that then the player has the option of discovering what they want to discover in that room, rather than specifically what you might want them to discover, if that makes sense. Joanna: I feel like when we write a book, a lot of the time we are just writing for us. But with a game, obviously, it's a business from day one. It's a company. I know you have some independent game companies and things, but people are thinking of the gamer, the person who's experiencing the game, from the beginning. So you almost have to keep that mindset. It's interesting that you're a discovery writer with your own novels. What tips do you have for authors that you've learned from gaming that you put into your novels? Edwin: That's a really interesting question. I've been mulling that over lately. It's like, I bring up this kind of experience design principle again. It's something that I would like to employ more when I'm actually writing a novel. I'm going to on this next novel I'm just starting work on. We are, again, thinking about the player, or in this case the reader, and you're sorting out, not the actual plot, not the actual storyline, but what emotional experiences you want the reader to have as they consume your story. So it's almost, again, thinking like a player, like, what route? If I go into this room, what things do I want them to be able to interact with in their own time and enjoy and get a fright from potentially, that kind of thing. The same thing when approaching a novel, if you are writing a scene is thinking about what is the key emotion that you want to evoke with this scene? Is it anxiety? Is it excitement? Is it a sense of fun? Whatever the style of story you're writing, whatever it pertains to, it's thinking of experience first. What do you want the reader to emotionally experience from that scene? And then work up from that. As opposed to maybe the approach of what's next on the plot. What part of the story do I want to deliver? Joanna: I think that's really important. And this idea of what you enjoy has to come into that too. For example, when you're talking about discovering what's in the lab. For me, curiosity is a really big driver for why I read books and why I want to learn about things. So that's what I have in my books is interesting settings, and interesting things that are actually in the real world because I enjoy those things and my readers do. And that's not for everyone. So you do have to find the things that you want to do, and then go ahead that way, which I think many readers, or many writers even might shy away from, because they're worried about what they like, or they think x will sell better. But what you're talking about there is experience first. It's definitely the experience for the reader and based on what you love, which I think's super important. Edwin: Exactly. As I mentioned, this next novel I'm going to delve into, which is a horror Western, the reason I'm writing it is because I can't find enough good horror Westerns out there to read. So I really am treating myself as the ideal reader. When I go on to create a scene I'll be looking at what emotion do I want to evoke in that scene that I would enjoy? Would I enjoy being frightened at this point? Would I enjoy being intrigued at that point? So, again, it's a very different process for me when I am tackling my novels as opposed to when I'm working on games, because it's a business. You have to always keep the audience in mind because at the end of the day that's the audience you're selling to. If you've got your player profile right, and you've tailored your game to that profile, then chances are it'll do well. If you've not hit the player profile, then things get a little squiffier. Joanna: It's so funny that you're not writing LitRPG, which to me would be obvious because you know this world so much. But clearly the horror Western, as soon as you said that, in my mind, I thought about ‘Westworld,' which I know is sci-fi, but it's sci-fi horror Western. Edwin: I love the first two seasons of ‘Westworld.' They're just amazing. Joanna: I only watched the first two as well. Edwin: I wouldn't advise to try the third. Joanna: There's definitely a niche there. Coming back on this software, Ink Script, and also the fact that you don't sound like you're a programmer. If someone listening wants to get into writing for games, how would they go about that? And is this software Ink Script something that's important? Edwin: Ink Script's a great place to start because it's open source for a start. So the company that created it, Inkle, they have been doing interactive fictions for a long time now, they do really sophisticated, fancy ones. '80 Days' is a mobile game where you, is it Phileas Fogg and Passepartout, and you basically have to get around the world in 80 days, but it's in a slightly alternative steam punky version of the world. And it's all done on text, a thread of text, and Ink Script is what runs underneath. I would say as far as writing tools go, it's an accessible one, because like I said, it still feels like writing, especially if you're a discovery writer. I think that's important to still have that sense of, ‘Hey, I'm actually…as I'm creating this game, I'm still writing this game.' There are other tools for those who are more a good planner type writer, articy draft is a really good one, which allows you to plot everything out in a really visual style, and also allows you to do all of your different branches about how the story might go. This way if the player makes choice A, or this way if the player makes choice B and C and so on. You can do it all visually in a nice big kind of map. And they also have cool tools in there. You can even create literal maps of your world and then tie your story to the world, so you can see how the player might be exploring the physical landscape at the same time as they're exploring the story. It's got lots of cool features to it. But it really, again, depends what sort of writer you are, and how you approach story. As far as getting into the industry side, I think there are two very distinct roles. There's game writing and then there's narrative design. So as I mentioned, the narrative design is more of the experience design behind the scenes kind of stuff, whereas game writing is the literal writing of dialogue, flavor text. Flavor text is the text that often comes on small items that you pick up on the game or other bits and pieces in the game if there's like collectibles in the game and might have little pieces of poetry on it and so on. There's barks, which have another thing. So that's all the sort of game development terminology which takes a while to get your head around. But barks are all the things that the characters will say as you're moving through the world. So for instance, on ‘Witcher 3,' you are Geralt of Rivia and you ride your horse through all of these villages and all the villages have things to say to you. Those are called barks. You can imagine that world is so big and so populated with NPCs, non-player characters. You can imagine how many lines of dialogue one would have to write in bark. So, there is a demand for writers to get in and write a lot of stuff. Especially if you've got a background in poetry or short story, and also script writing and I would say especially for theatre, because you already understand the base relationship between story and audience from theater, then that's a good place to start, is freelancing, writing, dialogue flavor text, cutscenes which are when the game stops and basically plays you a mini-movie. That's often a good starting point for screenplay writers in fact, or anybody from the movie industry wanting to come in. They'll often start writing cut scenes. There are a lot of different elements to games that you can start on without any technical skill whatsoever. However, if you want a bit more control over your work and you want to be a bit more involved in the development process and be the champion of story and the development of process, then it does pay to have some technical skills, and that's one of the reasons I learned Ink Script, which does involve things like wrangling variables, and states, and programming stuff. I've also started learning how to use Unity 3D which is a game engine and has a scripting language called C#, although that's been quite a steep learning curve for me. But I think if you want to future proof yourself in the games industry as a writer or narrative designer, I think having at least the willingness to learn the more technical tools would be really, really helpful. Joanna: It's interesting, this future proofing is something that I think about a lot obviously, and I talk about on this show, and one of the things that I hear talked about a lot at the moment is the spatial web, which is this kind of future, when I say future looks like the first headsets. Obviously, at the moment, there are gaming headsets, Oculus and stuff like that, but if Apple comes out with their VR, AR glasses, or whatever they're going to come out with, we could see this spatial web 3D world moving into more of the mainstream. And it feels like that suits gamers completely. What I've heard people talk about in this new web 3.0 or whatever people are calling it, is experience. And you said experience first; you're designing experiences and that's the way we need to think. Where do you see gaming going with the rise of essentially putting a screen on your face? We had ‘Pokémon Go' a few years ago. But I'm certainly very interested in how these experiences could work. Where do you see gaming going? Edwin: It's interesting that the spatial web space, especially virtual reality and augmented reality have been a lot slower to take the main stage of the games industry than a lot of people have thought. It has been because the technology hasn't been ready. A lot of people steer away from VR because they get motion sick when they try and use it. I've not experienced that myself, I've actually found VR extremely immersive. But it's also interesting, as soon as you place someone in a virtual environment the intensity levels, I think, go up. It actually becomes hard work to be in there because suddenly your brain is just processing like crazy with that new world that you've just been dropped into. And it means that, I think play sessions for virtual reality tend to be a lot shorter, because the player just gets tired more quickly. Much more tiring than say, reading a book or even, you know, playing a mobile game, or even playing a console game. So the cognitive load on the player has been a real challenge with virtual reality. I've just seen for instance Unreal Engine I believe 6 has just, I don't know if they've released it or it's on its way. Unreal is the go to engine for creating virtual reality and enables you to create super realistic environments relatively easily using a lot of AI rendering tech behind the scenes. I think as virtual reality gets closer to reality, I think that will ease that cognitive load on the player and make it easier to actually be in that space. Because that moment, literally, you're throwing a person into a completely alien environment. Even if it looks kind of like the real world, your brain is also processing the fact that it's not at the same time. So, I think that's an interesting challenge for VR to overcome. Joanna: Coming back on the motion sickness, I feel like that was some of the earlier iterations whereas with some of the stuff that they're doing now that's moved on. You mentioned Unreal Engine. I heard the CEO talk about that these aren't just virtual worlds for gaming, or that they might have started out as gaming but like Roblox for example, there are virtual concepts in these spaces, and these may be the type of spaces where we go to do our work for example or have these types of conversations and so that they're the worlds that were originally being built for, I say ‘just games' in inverted commas, may also be platforms for other forms of I guess commerce and relaxation for example. Edwin: Absolutely. This is an anecdote that just popped in mind about a company. They were having staff meetings in one of the online games, it might have been ‘World of Warcraft' or one of those. So they were already starting to use virtual environments as conference rooms so that people could dress up as their favorite avatar and hang out in a familiar, comfortable space to them, and while they're working. I think that side of things is also heading into some really interesting spaces. And particularly, I think, the more that virtual technology can create spaces that people can join together and inhabit together, and they're comfortable. That again, it's future-proofing against things like COVID, where if your office gets shut down because of a pandemic then you've already got systems in place where you can hang out with people, communicate freely from the comfort of your own home. So, I think there's a lot of potential on that space. The AR side of things is also interesting. Because again, I think it's been slow to take off because you've had this phone in your way. When even say games like ‘Pokémon Go,' you're going into an environment and you're using your phone to look through the phone to find the Pokémon. But you still have this barrier of a device and a screen in front of you. I think yes, once the glasses become where it's a lot more comfortable, easy to use, and you can ignore it, the better those experiences are they're going to become so that reality truly does feel like it's augmented, you've got added bits that you want to be there, but you're not feeling like you're missing out on the world because you're holding up a screen still in front of your face. At least that's how I feel about it. Joanna: Me too. And personally, I feel more attracted to the AR, the augmented reality side of things. We all wear glasses at different times, either for seeing or sunglasses or whatever. So I feel like that is going to be more natural. And also, we look down at our phones too much. If this screen is the world in front of you, then I think that's really interesting. But for people listening, neither of us are experts on all this but I don't think it's too futurist now, I think we're talking 3 to 5 years as opposed to 10 to 20 years. Especially if Apple come out with a device like they did in 2007, the launch of the iPhone, within a couple of years the whole mobile economy changed. New app store and all this kind of thing. My encouragement with this and talking about gaming is there's loads of different writing work. And there's loads of different ways of telling stories. You can license as well, I feel like there's a lot of licensing possibilities into gaming. To me, this is a real positive move. It just brings more opportunity for writers, because all these people want writers, right? Edwin: Absolutely. And that's the thing. There's a remarkable amount of writing that needs to be done still in so many of these games, and the larger the game, the more writing is required. Also the licensing is really interesting, because a very description-rich novel can be more easily translated into a virtual environment or an AR environment because all the elements are being described and the experience is being described. So it makes it easier for development team to kind of take that and then thread it into a visual interactable environment. So, I think there's scope, A for writers to have their work gamified as it were, but there's also, these projects are so big and involve so many millions of words that there's plenty of work going. Joanna: Of course you mentioned AI rendering with like Unreal Engine, and I feel like in gaming, AI voices have already happened, they don't necessarily have actors doing all the voices of the characters now, there are lots of different AI generated voices in gaming, so they're kind of ahead of that. I don't believe they're going to replace humans, obviously, but I do think we all have to work with AI. How else are you seeing AI being used now and moving forward? How much will you have to work with these tools? Edwin: Yes, in the games industry, we're working with AI all the time and have been for a while. For instance, if you look at say a fantasy game, where you are exploring a fantasy world, and let's say you are involved in combat quite a bit. So you are battling goblins and orcs and slaying dragons, and that kind of classic fantasy stereotypical stuff, then those enemies have always had a certain level of AI behind them. That could be really simple stuff as in, for instance, it's relatively simple to go into Unity and then program what's called a patrol loop. Let's say you have a werewolf, and you want them to patrol a certain part of the forest, you can set them going on there and they will do that, and then you can set some parameters to say how far can the werewolf see? How far can a werewolf hear? How far can it smell? As the player comes in, then you can trigger certain responses from the werewolf based on whether they've smelled them, heard them, or seen them. And that's gotten quite advanced in games like ‘Dead Cells' for instance, where it's all centered around battling these massive, hideous creatures. The behaviors for those creatures respond to what you do. And so if you can think about that, there's AI in all sorts of elements in games now that are reacting to the player's actions. So this stuff is already happening. And, for instance, specifically the indie publishing scene like what I've been playing around with, is a website and system called Replika. I don't know, have you heard of that one Joanna? Joanna: Yes, I have. Yeah. It's replika.ai I think. Edwin: I think so. I've had to play around with some of their voices, and some of them are just fantastic. And their ability to render quite natural sounding speech very quickly I think is a really interesting place. Again, I don't think it's going to replace voice actors anytime soon, but it's not a bad second best as far as the enjoyability of listening. It does require a different type of writing though, because you almost have to iterate with the AI. So you'll write your paragraph, it will say it back to you, and it will invariably get some words wrong. And you almost have to start to alter your spelling to, and almost spell things wrong to get the AI voice to actually say it properly. Don't know if you've had that experience with some of your AI voice. Joanna: It's really funny because even AI itself like the letter A followed by the letter I, actually had to spell that out. A-Y-dash-E-Y-E or something. Edwin: I almost want to ask, ‘Whoa, who's programming who here, robot?' Joanna: That's exactly the point, iterating with an AI tool, learning to work with AI tools, that's exactly what I think our future is. It's working with these tools to achieve more than we could do alone. I think this is super exciting. We could talk about this all day. I do have one more question for you before we go which is, you have a family, you have a day job, you're a busy guy and I have heard from many writers that they either have to give up gaming as enjoyment because it takes too much time, and also people who feel guilty about their gaming time for example, if they have kids and they're worried about this, that and the other. How do you manage your time with gaming given that it's your job, and also fun, and also presumably inspiration? Edwin: It is interesting. One thing that happens whenever you make a job out of something is that the enjoyment can unfortunately come off the thing that you're working with every day. It's almost like the time I spend helping to make games has colonized some of my time that I used to spend playing games. And that's just an occupational hazard of working in the games industry. So I guess that would be one piece of advice I would have to writers looking at the games industry, that if you really, really, really love games, just be aware that if you make it your job, you may not love games quite as much as you used to. But that's it. I do still play games. With regards to with family, what I tend to do, especially my youngest is quite the gamer. I've spent many hours of ‘Roblox' time with her, especially online. We have tended to go on ‘Roblox' adventures together. So playing games with your kids is a great thing. And two, what I'll tend to do is if I am researching a game, and it is, you know, kid friendly. So, Necroes, who's my eldest is now 15, middle one's 13, youngest is nine, that depending on what game I'm playing I may share that with them and we can, again, experience that game together and they can let me know what they think about it. It's often really nice to get a totally different perspective. But three girls, they bring a very different perspective to the games that I'm playing than that I might have. So yeah, definitely, it's a cool collaborative thing to do. And I guess the other thing too is I no longer tackle massive games that I know will take 100 hours to even just scratch the surface of. I actively look for games that are in the 2 hour to at most 20-hour mark, and even then that's getting a bit much these days. But I guess then if I think about it, it's like, well, actually a 20-hour game, what's that? Is that even two seasons with ‘Peaky Blinders?' I don't think it is. It's often not as much as you would think. So I would hasten to assure people that no, gaming can be a very managed and sustainable part of your life. I heard that Jane McGonigal, she does a lot of research into the positive effects of video games. And she said 23 hours per week is the cutoff point. This was done with high school students. Up until that point, gaming seemed to actually improve their performance at school. After 23 hours per week, then there was a definite drop off. So, it's all about healthy gaming. Just as you've talked quite a bit about healthy writing, I would suggest healthy gaming. Be careful about the games you pick to play and just manage your time that way and play with others as much as possible. Joanna: It can be a lot more active than say watching just back-to-back TV, hours of boxsets. Jane McGonigal is a great example. I've definitely linked it to her. She's got a couple of books as well on gaming. I think the other message is, there's a lot more out there than you think. And there's educational stuff, and there's lots and lots of variability as you mentioned at the beginning. I think this is a very exciting space. So thank you so much. Where can people find you and your book and everything you do online? Edwin: Everything is on my website, which is www.edmcrae.com. And for tracking down my books, I publish wide. I followed your advice Joanna and Rachel handles all the publishing side of our small press. So the books are available pretty much everywhere. And, but specifically on the website is just the www.edMcRae.com/books. And yeah, that's where everything is. Joanna: Fantastic. Well thanks so much for your time Edwin, that was great. Edwin: Thanks, it's been awesome Joanna. Thank you.The post Narrative Design In The Gaming Industry With Edwin McRae first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Writing can help us process trauma — whatever that means for you — as well as help others through our words. In this episode, David Chrisinger explains why stories can save us. In the intro, thoughts on print distribution [Jane Friedman]; Hachette's acquisition of Workman and why backlist is key [The New Publishing Standard]; Your Author Business Plan; The Magic Bakery. Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna. David Chrisinger is an award-winning nonfiction author and teaches writing at the University of Chicago. His latest book is Stories Are What Save Us: A Survivor's Guide to Writing About Trauma. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes What is trauma and how is it different for different people?How to write about trauma without suffering furtherIs it possible to write a factual memoir?Tips for creating space between you and the ‘character’ you are writing aboutHow do we deal with people who might be hurt by what we write? You can find David Chrisinger at DavidChrisinger.com and on Twitter @StrongerAtBP Transcript of interview with David Chrisinger Joanna: David Chrisinger is an award-winning nonfiction author and teaches writing at the University of Chicago. His latest book is Stories Are What Save Us: A Survivor's Guide to Writing About Trauma. Welcome, David. David: Thank you so much for having me. Joanna: It's great to have you on the show. Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing. David: I sometimes joke that I'm about a million miles from where I thought I was going to be when I started college because I went to college initially to be either a wildlife or a forest manager. And I even got certified to fight wildlife and forest fires. For whatever reason, I realized halfway through that, it was more of an interest or a hobby, it wasn't really a passion. And there were so many students that I was in classes with who I knew I was going to have to compete someday for a job and they were going to win. And so, I tried to think of, well, what do I think I can be the best at? What can I put everything into? I settled on art and history. So, I did 3D art and focused on modern American and European history, and wrote lots of papers, obviously, in college. And it was my sophomore year that I took a historical methods course, actually doing historical research. And that's where I think I really caught the writing bug. I started to see history as this story that people told that was based on evidence, and interviews, and dozens of other kinds of records. And it was a way of people making sense of something. And there was just something about that, that really connected with me. And so I decided I wanted to be a history professor. I graduated from college as the great recession was starting. And it turned out to be a pretty bad year to apply to graduate programs. I got in to the University of Chicago. I did my Master's degree and then had a heart-to-heart with an advisor who said I think the academic job market's not coming back and you should really think of doing something else. I had no plan B. But he suggested I start looking for jobs in the federal government, maybe in public policy. A lot of social science folks end up in that sort of route. And that's what landed me at the U.S. Government Accountability Office, which is basically the research department, the evaluation department for Congress, and wrote a lot of reports and testimonies and had to really learn how to connect with an audience, with a reader that doesn't have the same expertise or the same experience that the researchers have. And I started doing my own writing. It's been a very serendipitous journey to writing, and not something I intended to do from an early age. Joanna: I think that's fascinating. And it's interesting because you mentioned history as a story. And I guess that's also what we're talking about in terms of what survivor means, and what trauma means, and what our writing is because when we write our writing's only ever from one perspective, but as you say, we are connecting with an audience. I can see how your various interests have come together, which is fascinating. Let's get into the topic of the book because I think the word trauma, particularly at this time in history, is quite a difficult word. When people say trauma, it has very, very heavy connotations, maybe a very bad injury or experience of war. What is trauma? How can the experience of what is traumatic differ between people, especially in these times? David: It was 2017 I think the dictionary.com labeled trauma as the word of the year. That was something at least in the United States that was starting to get a lot more attention. When I set out to write this book, it was one of those things where the timing lined up in a really odd way. And trust me, I would not have wished for a pandemic to try to help with book sales here, but I think the idea that we've all experienced something that is on that scale of trauma. Now, there are things that are undeniably, clinically, by definition, traumatic. Like you mentioned, combat, people who survive sexual assaults, natural disasters, these situations where your life is really at risk. And then on the other side of that scale, there are experiences where, let's say, I behaved in a way that I'm not proud of or something outside of my control happened to me that changed the course of my life or helped me to see the world in a different way, not everyone's going to call that trauma. So I try to be pretty clear in the beginning of the book, that it's not really my job as a teacher and it's not really a reader's job to say, ‘Oh, that wasn't traumatic. Or, that doesn't matter because it's not as bad as this other thing.' There's this really famous quote from Viktor Frankl, who is a Holocaust survivor and a psychotherapist, and he said, ‘Trauma behaves much like a gas.' So if you were to pump gas into a box, it doesn't matter how big that box is, the gas is going to expand to fill the space. That's what trauma does, too. If it's something that's knocked you off the course of your life or something that makes you feel less whole than you used to feel, then to me, that's the sign that there's a story there. There's a story that when you're ready to tell it, other people are going to want to hear. Joanna: I think this is so important. And I was reading your book, and I felt this several times during the pandemic. it's like, “I'm having a really difficult time right now but my life is very good compared to other people. So I feel guilty about labeling this in any way bad for me.” And I say that because I feel like a lot of writers have the same experience or a lot of people have the same experience, which is, “oh, what's happened to me isn't as bad as what's happened to X other person.” And even different people who go through a similar experience, someone might come out of that traumatized and another person can just write it off as not a big deal. Personal perspective is so key, isn't it, in terms of both your experience and also the reader's experience? David: That's exactly right. And I would add to that when we set out or when I set out to write a story, that there's going to be some kind of, let's just call it trauma, whether it's what other people would agree is trauma or not, beside the point, if I want to write about that. Obviously, that thing that happened or that experience that I had is going to be central to the story but it's not the whole story. And part of what I think makes personal essay writing and memoir so exciting to write and also so exciting to read is you can imagine yourself in the author's position. How would I react to that? If that happened to me or what step would I take if I had survived that? It's almost like a computer simulation as you're reading it. When I read a memoir, I'm not there to be voyeuristic of someone's trauma. And in fact, that sometimes makes me feel quite uncomfortable as a reader if I'm starting to feel voyeuristic. What I'm looking for in those stories is, okay, how did this person change? How did they react to this situation? What did they learn? How are they different? That's really where some of the ideas from this book came from, or, what were the kind of stories that resonated with me. And lots of times it was that there was a point to them. There was a reason why the person was sharing that story more than to say, ‘Here's what happened,' which lots of times, that's a very appropriate thing to do, especially when you are documenting real traumatic events. It's incredibly important to say, here's what happened. But when we're talking about these kind of personal essays, memoirs, I think the thing that keeps the reader engaged is what did you learn from that? Joanna: From the perspective of the person writing, so forget about publication and readers, we can talk about them in a minute but in terms of just writing: Why is writing about trauma a helpful thing and how can we write about these dark and difficult times without going through more suffering or even drowning in these memories? David: One of the most prolific researchers and writers, let's call them, about this topic, has this rule that he calls the freakout rule, which is anytime that you want to express yourself in writing, if you start to feel that panic or that wave of depression, that freakout, that's a signal from your body that you're just probably not ready to do that kind of writing. And you should listen to it. The way that I sometimes explain this to students is it's sort of like exercise. If there's a little bit of burn, then you know you're doing it right. But if it's painful, you need to stop. That means you're doing something that's not good for your body. Sometimes it's just a matter of kind of figuring out, well, what experience or what thing do you want to write about that you've got a little distance from, you have a little perspective, you can approach it from different vantage points? That can be a really good topic to start writing about in the style that I teach in this book. The research that's been done on these sorts of practices, it points to a lot of different results and a lot of maybe potential causes for why writing can be so helpful. But some of the leading theories, if you will, show that by writing a story, you're bringing coherence to it. You're wrapping your arms around something that seemed fragmented or sort of discombobulated even. And that there's a real pleasure and a real benefit to being able to articulate something in a coherent way. Our brains want to do that, naturally. And sometimes trauma impacts the brain's ability to do that. And so, forcing yourself to wrap your arms around it can be really, really helpful. I think it was Joan Didion, who said, ‘I need to write to understand what I think about something.' I know that's true for me as well, that sitting down to write a story helps me work through, ‘What do I really think about that? And how did I feel at that moment? And why was I feeling that way? Did it have something to do with the relationship that I had with that person? Is there something unexplored that I haven't thought about and maybe I need to start thinking about.' It's using writing almost as a way to get ideas out onto the page and, again, to make sense of it. And then there's just the idea, and I think this is true, as well of unloading that emotional burden onto the page, even if it's momentary. I know when I write something down, whether it's in a Word document or in a journal, I know it's there and I know I don't have to constantly be thinking about it anymore or trying to remind myself of it. So I think there's a psychic weight loss that also happens with this kind of writing. Joanna: I totally agree with you. And as you were talking now, I think there's often a mode of a person's preferred expression. And obviously, you're a writer. I'm a writer, people listening are generally writers, as this is a podcast for writers, but I feel like sometimes people say, ‘You could go to therapy.' And I'm like, ‘Well, do you know what, I don't really talk my issues. I write my issues.' My first husband, this was over a decade ago… I'm happily in my second marriage now. But my first husband left me and I have a whole load of journals from that time. And I read them and I don't even recognize the person in those journals. As you say, it all comes out on the page. It was about a year, I closed the last book on that and it doesn't hurt now to look back. And yet when I open one of those journals, I'm like, ‘Whoa, who is that person?' So writing this down and I haven't published any of those, by the way, they were just journals but it is almost a preferred mode. If someone wants to talk or someone wants to create art, or someone wants to dance, or however you express your feelings and work through that, and for some people it's writing. David: I think that's totally true. I'm curious when you go back and read some of those things, do you feel very differently than the feelings that you put on the page or are those still kind of close anyway? Joanna: No, they're like another person. As in I read them, I can see it's my handwriting, but I can't even access all the kind of self-destructive stuff and that, say, hate and things, terrible poetry, all the things that I wrote down, then, it's almost like I exorcised it onto the page. By putting it there, it exists there, not in my head. I feel like it was very healing for me to do that. And of course divorce is an incredibly common thing. But my parents got divorced and I feel that they were traumatized by that experience. Where I don't feel I'm traumatized because I almost dealt with it by writing, which is why it's so powerful. David: That's so interesting. I feel very similar, when I go back to read things, I have that thought of, ‘Who was I when I was feeling this way?' I had a therapist once who told me about this mental trick, I guess you could call it. She called it the fives or the five questions or something like that, where she said, ‘When you're feeling these really intense feelings, ask yourself, ‘Is this going to matter in five minutes? Is it going to matter in five hours? Is it going to matter in five days,' right, and you just keep going, maybe five years is where you cut it off.' That can sometimes give you enough perspective to say, ‘Okay, I had a really, really bad morning, but this probably isn't going to matter in a few days.' And just to get that perspective. Sometimes I think it's helpful to do that with the subject matter of the things I want to write about is this something that is still affecting me more than five years after it happened? That might be an indication that I need to work through it, right, that it's big enough, it has enough of an effect on my day-to-day life that I haven't buried it, I haven't made sense to that, I haven't wrapped my arms around it. Whereas, when you're in that moment and you're thinking, ‘All this rage is pouring out onto the page and this feels so good. And someone should read this.' Are you sure that you're going to want someone to be able to read that five years from now? Angie Ricketts wrote the afterword for my book. This is something her and I talk about all the time, that her memoir, she sold a proposal for the memoir and the publisher had it in their mind that this book had to come out at a very, very specific time to kind of hit the book club, list creation time. And there was also a TV show that was very popular that was related to the same topic, and we wanted to have that available at the same time. So she ended up having to write the memoir in three months. And she spent the first two months panicking about it. And then finally, in the last month, really sat down to write it. Her memoir is written in present tense because she had all the journals and the diaries from all the years that she was writing about. The book has this immediacy to it and it's unfolding before your face to impact on the reader. And now, when we talk, she says the same thing you did, ‘I read that, and I don't even know who that person was.' I asked her a similar question, ‘Do you wish you maybe wouldn't have put it out into the world?' And she said, ‘No, absolutely not,' because what that book does is it gives this snapshot of who she was as a person at that time. And the fact that she doesn't feel like that person anymore, is a sign that the writing did something for her. It helped her get past some of those things and look at them in a different way. And she also said there are things in her book that maybe she would rewrite now, if she was doing a second edition or something. She said lots of people were frustrated or upset about things that she wrote, but that no one called her a liar. And that was the definition of success for her at that time was to just get it out onto the page. But now, if she sat down to write, it would be a very different book. Joanna: You're going to have to tell us the name of that book now. David: Angie's book is called No Man's War. And Angie was married to an army officer who deployed I believe it was nine times to Iraq and Afghanistan. And so the book is about her life as an army wife. Joanna: You mentioned the word liar there. Truth and lies and something in between, I feel is very difficult in memoir or as you said, personal essay because our memories are attached to emotions. We experience something from our perspective. I completely appreciate that my own journals about my divorce are not my ex-husband's perspective. But this is a question that I keep coming back to. Just so you know, I've written over 30 books now, none of them are memoir. I have a memoir in progress. So I think about this a lot. How can we even tell or can we write things that serve the story beneath the story, as you call it? Does everything need to be factually true? David: So this is where my journalism friends will probably disagree with me but my memoir and personal essay friends will agree. I think the premise itself is probably not exactly accurate. I'm not convinced that I can write a totally objective, factually correct story. I just don't know that my human brain is capable of doing that because like you said, when we remember things, there are emotions tied to it. There are also ways that our body copes with traumatic experiences that results in memories being stored in weird ways and fragmentation. And there's just tons of things that happen in the brain during a traumatic experience, that, I think having the standard of, I'm going to write something that is objectively fact-based and evidence-based and true, is maybe just something that's not possible with this kind of writing. Now, I think that there's a freedom and kind of a beauty in recognizing that and leaning into it for lack of a better phrase. So when I write, I try to be very transparent about whether this is something I remembered, whether this was something based on evidence or based on a document or based on a letter, for example, or if this is something I had recorded or had preserved in some other way. I try to be transparent about where the information is coming from and also being careful not to put emotions onto other people or to try to speculate about what they are thinking or feeling unless there's a point to me speculating, to maybe show the reader that I can't read this situation. I'm not sure if this person is feeling this or feeling that, and giving the reader an opportunity to collect the evidence themselves and maybe come to their own conclusion. It's not fun, I don't think for the average reader to be told everything constantly. It's also, I think, pleasurable, frankly, to read something and know that the author is trusting you to come to your own conclusion or is okay with you bringing yourself to the story and making sense of it in your own way. Now, if I am writing a scene, let's say, and I have no documentation except my memory, I'm going to be really clear about that. If it's something that I think happened or that I'm pretty sure happened or I know it happened, but I don't know the details of it, that's when I might start looking for corroborating evidence. Can I find a picture of the setting where this happened? That's from that period. Can I say something factual about what things look like there? Can I find information? Let's say the scene is across the street from an ice cream shop, can I then say, ”Well, it smelled like waffle cone.' I better make sure that that place sells waffle cones. There's this kind of detective or investigative work that I actually find quite enjoyable as a writer, where I'm searching for those sensory details and I'm searching for the essence of a place or of a person. What can we infer from someone's letters, for example, about how they felt or about who they were? We can make those inferences and we can make those speculations but we also want to show, I think, where the evidence comes from and how we got to that conclusion, again, to show that we're not just making stuff up. But I think that the key is transparency and then also thinking about, well, if I wanted to write the scene, what details would I need and how can I find those? Joanna: It's interesting because as part of writing novels, sensory detail is so critical for getting deep into a character's point of view. And you talk about this in the book is turning ourselves into a character in a story but this is so difficult in terms of this is me. Yes, you could write in first person, like, I think you mentioned your friend did. But even if you do, you still have to almost create the character that is you at whatever point in your life you're writing about. How can we do this? What are your tips for separating ourselves enough and how would we tell the story with this character? David: I'll say two things. So the first is, I am sure you picked up on this in my own writing, but I'm pretty honest about my own failings, and my own shortcomings, and character flaws, and even times where I regret how something happened, I regret my behavior, I try to be as honest as I can about what happened, not in a defensive way, but in a descriptive way of showing that I'm not that reliable of a narrator in most cases. I think a reader really appreciates seeing a narrator as flawed, that this isn't a book of here are all the ways that I'm so smart and smarter than you, and you should listen to me. It's about, I've made these mistakes too or these things have happened to me too, or I had this bad reaction in this situation. So that's the first thing I think is it's important to present yourself as a three-dimensional human, flawed, wonderful, beautiful, sometimes ugly person. And giving that same kind of grace and that same perspective to the other characters in your book as well. I have this good writing friend of mine who said you don't have to call someone a jerk in your writing. You can just describe what they do. And if that is how a jerk behaves, your reader will come to that conclusion. You don't have to tell them someone is a jerk. And at the same time presenting yourself, like I said, as someone who can do no wrong is not really that interesting, I don't think. I like to see when people roll up their sleeves and say, ‘Here's my scar and here's how I got it.” Now, so that's the first thing. Second thing is I'm an outline writer. That's how my brain works. That's how I have to do it. I know that's not true for everyone. So if you're a writer who writes by the seat of your pants, this might sound really awful. But for the outlining folks I try to first understand the action in a story in a paragraph. So, this is how the story starts, here are the ways that the tension builds, this is the big crisis moment, here's how things get resolved. I want to have that understanding of a story before I start writing. Then the next step is okay, well, I have to show either myself or I have to show other people acting in the story. What are the things that the reader is going to want to know or that they need to know about those characters to make sense of what's happening in the story or to make sense of the action that the character takes? The example I use in the book is a friend of mine wrote a book about a trip that I went on with him. And in the first few pages of the chapter where he introduces me, he mentions my weight three separate times. I played football in college. I'm a bigger guy. I'm 6'4′, about 250-some pounds. And he makes this comment about three different times in the beginning of the chapter. And when I read it, I thought, ‘Why is he doing this? I am more than just my body weight.' Then, towards the end of the chapter, he has this climactic scene where we're in the middle of this really terrible storm that could have really ended the trip. I had to drag our canoe that was full of supplies, about 500 pounds worth of supplies. I had to pull it straight up the side of a hill. And so when I asked him, ‘Why did you keep bringing up my weight?' He said, ‘I wanted people to believe that you could actually do that, that you could pull this canoe up the side of a hill. And I felt like if I didn't stress that you're a big strong guy, then people wouldn't believe it or they would doubt my claim.' So it's sort of almost like reverse engineering. I want to show how this person acted. Why do I think they did that and what are the details that I can present about them? What are the little vignettes that I can present? What are the anecdotes that maybe will help explain this behavior just a little bit to the reader? That's where I'm going to start, is figuring out what are those little quirks, those little things about the character, that you can see this when you're a seasoned storyteller. You see this in movies and TV and stories where you learn this detail about someone and you think, ‘Oh, this is going to come back? This is going to come back at some point.' This is a clue of how they're going to behave later. Those are the sorts of things I look for. And then it's a matter of making sure that character, whether it's yourself or someone else is a real like three-dimensional character and that they're not all good. They're not all bad. And there are a bunch of stuff in between. Joanna: This is what's so hard, I think, with memoir and story because when I create a novel, and I'm a discovery writer, by the way. I prefer the term discovery writer. David: Oh, I like that. Going to use that now. Joanna: Yes, definitely use it. We're trying to change the language away from seat of the pants or pantser, which is just such a terrible word and very American, because, of course, pants is underwear here in England. David: Oh, okay. Well, that makes sense. Joanna: When I write a novel, I create a character that fits my plot or my narrative, why did this bad person do the bad thing, like, blow up the world or whatever? And it's easy to choose the vignette to support my story. But you're talking there about, you mentioned grace for the other characters, but we can't write three-dimensional characters for everyone in this book. So, for example, your example with your weight or your build in your friend's book, it wasn't about you. The book wasn't about you. So that was one detail that didn't encapsulate your entire self. Now, one of the things I get a lot of emails from people writing memoir, people worried about either getting sued if they've written something that could be taken the wrong way by people in a serious way or just damaging friendships or relationships by taking a particular point of view. Let's say you were actually offended about comments about your size and then you just didn't talk to that friend anymore, or whatever. So you can see, especially in these times where people get quite wound up on social media. What are your thoughts on the concern of offending people or getting sued, and how do we portray other characters, especially with trauma, because these are going to be difficult relationships? David: I struggle with this. I don't want to present myself as the expert who's got it all figured out. But I can share maybe some of the influences that I think about. There's this great American writer named William Zinsser, who wrote a book called On Writing Well, and he makes this point about memoir where he says, let's say you write your story and your sister gets really upset about it, you can tell her that she can write her own memoir if she doesn't like it. So there's that kind of this is my story and I don't care what you think about it sort of approach. That feels to my Midwestern sensibilities, that feels like really aggressive and mean. The other side of the spectrum is only writing things that people find flattering or that they would be happy or at least not upset about the world knowing. And I do think that there are times in which it does pay to give that kind of deference to a character. For example, when I'm doing a more journalistic piece and I'm writing about someone and I am not a character in the piece, this is a story completely about them, I will run the story by them. I won't send them the story so that they can read it word for word. I will read it to them either on Zoom or on a phone. And I'll read the details that are about them. I always say, the reason I'm calling here is because I want to make sure that there's nothing factually inaccurate about what I'm saying. But at the same time, I want you to know that I get to decide how this affects the story. So if I then started saying, ‘Okay, here's this scene where I talk about how you did X,' and the person might say, ‘Well, that's not exactly how I felt. What I really thought was this.' That might be something I definitely want to change that because I don't want to mischaracterize how they felt. Now, if I make a judgment about the person, and they say, ‘Well, I don't like that judgment,' then that means not something I will change unless they can give me information that would change my mind about the judgment. Now, when I'm writing about myself and there are other characters in the book or in the story that I'm related to, or that I'm friends with, or that I teach, or whatever the relationship is, I always try to make sure that the story is from my perspective, that I'm not trying to tell their story in my story. I want to present things from my vantage point, from my perspective. From there, I want to try to figure out what were they thinking? What were they feeling? I think the only way to really do that, if the person's living, of course, is to interview them and to ask those questions. I've done that with several members of my family. There are lots of stories in the book from my family. I had questions and I asked for answers, and I probed for details. I asked them to describe things. That became my evidence for the thing that I wrote. Now, I know that there are big differences in libel laws between the UK and the U.S., I want to say that that's much more of a concern in the UK. I don't want to advise anyone on legal precedent for what they can say, but I try to use that that criteria that Angie told me about, which is someone might be upset with me, but as long as they don't think I lied, that's the thing that I'm looking for. Then the other question you have to ask is how important is the relationship to you? There are, I think, reasons to write about people in a way where it's like, ‘Well, if you wanted me to write a better story about you, you should have treated me better.' If you wanted to be the hero in my story, then you should have been the hero in my story. I would never suggest that someone should gloss over or sugarcoat someone's flaws, just because that would upset them. Because at the end of the day, it's really your story and you trying to understand what you went through, and then trying to communicate that with other people so that they can understand too. And like I said, if you present a character for who they are, the reader will come to that conclusion on their own. And it will feel more natural and less of an attack. And, for lack of a better word, it's sort of like, well, this is what happened and this is how I felt about it. There are times then where you might want to incorporate what other people were thinking and feeling, and times when you might not want to. And that's really, totally up to the writer to make that decision. I don't necessarily have rules that I follow, but I try to listen to the feeling I get when I'm writing something. And if I start to feel like, oh, they're not going to like this, then I want to interrogate that. Why aren't they going to like it? Is it because I'm being too harsh or is it because this is really embarrassing for them and they know it? Okay, well, if it's really embarrassing for them and they know it, and they've tried to make amends or apologize, how can I put that into the story or how can I give this context that would leave a reader thinking, ‘Wow, that was a really difficult situation, but it sounds like they're in a better place?' If that's the case. If it's not, don't invent that, right? Don't try to invent a resolution when there isn't one. Sometimes stories don't really end. Another story begins. Joanna: Yeah, absolutely. And memoir never ends, I think until we're dead. David: For sure. Joanna: There's always another book. So that was fantastic. David, tell us where people can find you and your book and everything you do online. David: Thank you so much. I have a website, davidchrisinger.com. You can find all my latest stuff there, upcoming events, other books I've written articles, what have you. In terms of buying the book, obviously, there's Amazon. In the United States, indiebound.com is a great resource as well. You can buy books from your local bookstores. I'm not sure who to point you to in the UK, but the publisher is Johns Hopkins University Press. I think that's the best way to find it. Joanna: Brilliant. Thanks so much for your time, David. That was great. David: All right. Thank you.The post Stories Are What Save Us: Writing About Trauma With David Chrisinger first appeared on The Creative Penn.

If you write fiction in any genre, you need to build your world. Whether it's the cozy coffee shop in your romance, or a complete fantasy world, or a post-apocalyptic wasteland, world-building can strengthen your plot and bring depth and conflict to your characters. Angeline Trevena gives plenty of tips in this episode. In the intro, the inevitability of unlimited subscription [The New Publishing Standard]; Scarlett Johansson vs Disney [BBC]; Notes from a small London publisher [Publishing Perspectives]; the rise in ecommerce and opportunities for authors [Kris Writes]; my tutorial on selling direct; Continued difficulty in writing during the pandemic [@writermels on Twitter] Today's podcast sponsor is Findaway Voices, which gives you access to the world's largest network of audiobook sellers and everything you need to create and sell professional audiobooks. Take back your freedom. Choose your price, choose how you sell, choose how you distribute audio. Check it out at FindawayVoices.com. Angeline Trevena is the author of urban fantasy and dystopian fiction, as well as nonfiction for authors. She's the co-host of the Unstoppable Authors podcast and organizes events for authors. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes Different types of world-building Ideas for how to build different worlds Creating cultures and characters that make good stories The importance in a culture for the potential for conflict Guidelines to follow when creating a magic system The three things world building needs to achieve in a book Tips on the use of maps and where to find map illustrators or learn how to DIY Mistakes to avoid when world building How to backwards engineer an apocalypse You can find Angeline Trevena at AngelineTrevena.co.uk and on Twitter @AngelineTrevena Transcript of interview with Angeline Trevena Joanna: Angeline Trevena is the author of urban fantasy and dystopian fiction, as well as nonfiction for authors. She's the co-host of the ‘Unstoppable Authors' podcast, and organizes events for authors. Welcome to the show, Angeline. Angeline: Thank you very much for having me. Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today on the topic of world-building, which we're going to get into. Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing. Angeline: I'm one of those people who has been writing stories since they were old enough to hold a pen, really. But it was never my dream. It wasn't my childhood dream to be an author. I always wanted to act, so my whole childhood was spent doing theater and singing lessons and dance lessons. Then went to university, and I did a degree in drama and writing, and about halfway through my first year, I realized that I hugely preferred the writing side to the theater side. It was a really strange moment to do that, because my whole life to that point had been so focused on theater, so it was like setting aside my entire being, and focusing on something else. I graduated university back in 2003, so the first Kindle wouldn't even come out for a good few years yet. So, being published, being an author was sort of pipe dream territory, and I never would have ever imagined that I would end up doing it for my job, for my living. When I finished uni, I started out writing short horror stories and submitting them to anthologies that were put out by small presses, so that's where I started out. And in about 2012, 2013, it would have been, I said to my writing group that I was a member of, I said, ‘Why don't we self-publish our own anthology of short stories together?' They actually turned around and laughed at me. They actually laughed because back then, it was still quite widely thought that self-publishing was still the last desperate attempt of someone who couldn't get a publishing deal. Joanna: And also, you're in England, right? Angeline: Yes. Joanna: Which I think is definitely, much, much worse. I moved back to England in 2011. 2012 was the first year I felt like, oh, maybe things are changing, but definitely, England was well behind the U.S. and Australia in terms of acceptance of indies. Angeline: Yeah. Luckily, I didn't let it deter me. I walked away from that conversation, and it made me think, ‘Do you know what? I'll show you. I'll show you.' And so, I self-published my first book in 2015. I actually hand-coded the ebook. It was really important to me that I learn how to do everything. So I hand-coded this ebook, because there weren't all the fancy programs that you get now. Now, all these years later, I have 18 books out, and I make my living out of being an author. So I'm pretty sure I showed them. I think I proved my point. Joanna: Well, what's funny though, is you probably didn't show them with that first book! Angeline: Oh, no. Joanna: That's the truth of it and it's probably the truth of most careers, you're just like, ‘Well, I'm going to make a success of this.' The success doesn't come in the first year. I think that's an important point. Angeline: Oh, definitely. But it is a very much thinking long-term. I really try and focus on the long term. Joanna: Oh, definitely. Today we're talking about world-building, and you've got a number of books and box sets on this from all different levels. There's so much to talk about. And we can't possibly get into it all. I've been delving into all your books and going, ‘That's interesting. That's interesting.' But let's take it right up to a high level. What are the different types of world-building, when do authors need to do it, and what genres might people consider it for? Angeline: When people think about world-building, they tend to think about fantasy. And they might think about alien worlds in science fiction as well, but actually, world-building exists in every single genre. If you write contemporary fantasy, and you create a coffee shop or a bookshop that doesn't exist, even if you set it in a real-life town, that shop that you create, that's world-building. Or if you have a detective novel set in a real place, and you make up the PI company, that in itself is world-building, or a secret government division that doesn't really exist. Or maybe it does. Who knows? That's world-building as well. So you can have world-building in literally any genre whatsoever. But the fantasy writers, and the sci-fi writers, and quite often horror writers as well, we are the heavy lifters of the world-building. Joanna: I agree with you. I have a secret government agency in my ARKANE thrillers. And I agree, people often think oh, like, ‘I'm not world-building. I'm setting this book in the real world.' My ARKANE thrillers are this time, this world, and 90% of it is real places and all of that kind of thing. But, as you say, you have to come up with the boundaries, I guess, of where you're going to do something, even like a cozy mystery, like you said, a coffee shop, you have to do that. So, what are some of the dimensions, I guess? And another thing, and we don't have to do all of them. What are some of the dimensions of world-building that we need to consider? Angeline: There are several ways that you can approach world-building, and different kinds of worlds you can build on different scales. So, you might be creating an entirely new fictional world, which would be very much like epic fantasy, so, an entire world that doesn't exist, has never existed, like Middle Earth or Narnia, which is what people think about when they think about world-building. Another way that you can do it is by taking a real place and putting it into an alternative past or giving it an alternative future. So, the genres we see, that sort of world-building in a lot is altered history, steampunk, dystopia, and post-apocalyptic. The other thing you can do is you take a real place and you have a parallel fictional world existing alongside the real world. This is urban fantasy, magical realism, and quite often, the people, the humans that live in the real world, don't know about the fantasy world because obviously, it's a great for cause of conflict when the two worlds collide. You can do world-building on a massive scale, or you can do world-building on a really tiny micro-scale. But even if you're building a huge epic world, you can go right down to the micro, which I tend to, inventing things like food, and coins, and specific jargon words. You can get right down into the nitty-gritty if your book needs that, but not all books need that. Some books can have a much looser amount of world-building doing. Joanna: There's definitely a continuum from people who just do a bit of it to the full-on world-building nerd, where you are. I think a lot of fantasy authors are, and I really only discovered this when I wrote dark fantasy. And as you say, jargon words, I ended up coming up with words and things and it was like, ‘Oh, my goodness, I guess I'm world-building.' So people might not realize they're doing it even though they actually are. You mentioned people then, and obviously, characters are important in our stories. What are some ideas for creating cultures and characters that help make good stories in the world-building sense? Angeline: In my books, I ram this down the reader's throat. I go on and on about it. The characters are the most important. Your characters are the reason your readers keep turning the pages, and hopefully, keep buying your books. Everything has to come back to character, all the time. It's the most important thing. When you're thinking about creating a culture, which can seem like quite an overwhelming thing to do, start simple. Start with what you know. Have a look at the world around you that you live in. Notice all the little nuances of your culture, the…it's probably things that you take for granted, but start noticing it. And actually, when you get used to noticing all the nuances of the culture you live in, it puts you in this really weird place where you're like, ‘My life is so strange.' Because you start noticing things that you've just never seen before, and you're like, ‘Hmm. That's really weird.' But that's always a really good place to start. Just start with what you know, look at what's happening around you, and then, if there's something in your culture that you'd like to explore, like you might want to explore gender roles in culture. You might want to explore, like, poverty and inequality. Look at the world around you, look at what you can see, and then highlight certain aspects of it. You can exaggerate certain aspects, you can twist them around completely on their head, to really hone in and make that the theme of the world that you're creating. And remember that culture is self-perpetuating. Everything affects culture, and culture, in turn, affects everything else. So that's all the institutions in your world, politics, law, education, religion. Actually, the landscape itself and the resources that are available, that affects culture, and culture can affect that as well. If a particular natural resource becomes incredibly popular for a reason, you can deplete your world of it. So, even the landscape and the resources and the weather… I think as British people, we know how much the weather affects culture and all the values that people have as well. So, think about how culture is affecting the elements of your world-building, and how the elements of your world-building are therefore pushing back and affecting the culture. Always be thinking about how it goes back and forth. And remember that cultures change over time, and these things might happen very gradually through the generations, or they might happen, like, instantaneously because of a huge event. Again, I think we all know about that as well, now. A big event happens in your world, and it can change the things that people value, the things they see as important. Culture can change very gradually through the generations, or it can just be a really, really quick thing. And most importantly, for the sake of your story, make sure you're building into your culture loads of potential for conflict. Even if you're creating a utopia, making sure there's a dark underbelly, where there's inequality, where there's the haves and the have-nots, because we all need conflict to be able to write a story. That's what stories are based on. Joanna: I think the idea of values is so important. The pandemic has shown us this so many times, and actually, something that different cultures value is old people versus children. In our English culture, it has seemed that we value children more than old people, and yet, in some cultures, the elders, the wise ones, are valued more than children. And even that seems, on the one hand, a small thing, and on the other hand, a really, really big thing as to which groups in society are valued more, and that has potentially nothing to do with the weather or the physical location. You could set that in a desert culture, like, for example, Aboriginal Australians who, I think, value elders, and obviously value children as well, but in terms of the hierarchy of a group. Or you could set that in a polar landscape. Angeline: Yep, absolutely. Joanna: For everyone listening, think about all of these things that can be dimensions and you can think about them as levers that you can move up and down. And, of course, we don't have to be original either, do we? Angeline: No. Joanna: We can borrow, like Tolkien obviously borrowed from myth and Icelandic things. Angeline: And everyone's borrowed from him. Joanna: Yes. Exactly. Or you could say we're people doing trolls or whatever, also borrowing from Iceland and that type of thing. But this kind of mixing and matching is a good way to think about it, isn't it? You don't have to come up with totally original things. Angeline: Yes. And I think, as authors, we tend to put so much pressure on ourselves to be completely original, and do something that no one's ever seen before. But actually, if you're doing things that people have seen before, they already like it, and they already know it, and there's already a market for it. So don't feel that you have to come up with some totally crazy new idea that no one's ever done before, because actually, what makes your idea unique is the way you tell it, it's your personal voice as an author. That's where the uniqueness comes in. You could give the exact same writing prompt to 10 writers and you end up with 10 totally different stories. Joanna: One very important part of the fantasy genre mainly is a magic system. And I feel like this is just so critical for world-building. How do we make sure our magic system holds together and influences the plot and character and everything? Angeline: I love magic systems. I am somebody who loves very, very heavy rule-based magic systems. There are other people who much prefer looser, freer, magic systems, but I love rules. The most important thing when you're making magic systems is you need to make it feel like it actually belongs in your world. It's not bolt-on. It's not, ‘Oh, I quite fancy having magic, so I just chuck some magic in at the end.' No. It needs to feel like it's always been in your world. It may be something that springs up new, but it needs to be integrated. Think about historical events in the timeline of your world. Which of those have been influenced by magic, which have been caused by magic? And think about the culture as well, and how magic integrates into the culture. Is it taught in schools? Is it part of the education system? How does it work in politics? There's likely to be laws around magic, maybe who can and can't do it, or when you can and can't do it. There's going to be division around magic. There's really, really great potential for conflict there, and prejudice around magic. And think about, has it been monetized? Let's face it, if magic as we think of it, was real in our world, it would be capitalized, and it would be monetized in some way. Joanna: Well the internet's magic, isn't it? Angeline: Yeah. We do have magic in this world, but pointy finger, wand-waving magic, then it would be commercialized, and you would have a lot of advertising on TV for these things. Maybe magic has even been completely outlawed in your world. So, when you're building your magic system, make sure it is fully integrating into your culture, and integrate it into the plot as well, so it can help your main character reach their ultimate goal, but it can also hinder them. It can be a source of conflict in itself. Magic can be an inciting incident, and you can use it to highlight and explore the themes of your book as well, like inequality, if some people can do magic and some people can't, or one kind of magic is thought of as better than the other. If your theme is about the environment, then you can have a very nature-based magic system. Your themes might be like found family or sacrifice. You can bring magic into these themes, so that it really feels integrated in your story. And, of course, it has to affect your character. So think about the character arc. Maybe a big part of it is a training sequence. I love training montage. I love it. I want to see your character burning their eyebrows off when they first try magic. So, make sure it's really integrated in there. Make sure also that you're not using it as a crutch or an excuse, which is where the rules come into magic systems. You don't use it as a God in the machine moment, right at the end, if you haven't foreshadowed it. It's something you need to be really aware of, that you're foreshadowing your magic and the amount of magic, and the way that magic can and can't be used. So, like I say, I love rules in magic systems. You can have a very rule-based magic system with lots of limitations on the actual magic itself, or you can have a magic system that has no rules or limitations, too, but has really severe consequences for using magic. Or you can write a magic system that has both lots of limitations and consequences of using it. And those limitations and consequences might be actually within the magic itself, or it might be cultural, so it might be that it's illegal to use magic, therefore, that would be a consequence and a limitation on your magic system. But you can go crazy and really base your magic system on anything you want. So, again, go back to what you know. Think about what you're interested in. You might base your magic system on ancient words, it might be animal-based, or based on symbols. Maybe you really enjoy dancing and you have magic dances that create magic. Start with things that you're interested in, and don't be scared to incorporate futuristic tech into magic as well. I love that mix of, like, futuristic tech and magic. I think it's awesome. Joanna: Yes. A fantasy techno-thriller. I also read in that kind of crossover genre, although I would say it's quite a small one. But coming to this, you mentioned the word foreshadowing, and I guess, if people don't know what that is, it means that there are hints earlier on so that when something happens, it's not a surprise. But I wanted to add; I'm a discovery writer. Angeline: Me too. Joanna: Okay. Well, that's great you say that, because I feel like a lot of people think, ‘Oh, well, I have to spend 6 months, or 10 years planning my world, and doing all the world-building as a separate activity to writing.' Whereas how I did my Mapwalker series is I just started writing, and some stuff appeared. And then foreshadowing, to me, means in editing, going back to earlier chapters, and making sure there are hints that things are going to happen. So you don't have to know in advance, you just have to put it so the reader gets it in advance. How do we get this balance between spending way too much time world-building and balancing what's actually needed? Angeline: It is a danger. I'm one of those writers who I could quite happily world-build forever and never actually write the bloomin' book itself. And so I have to be really disciplined. And because I am a discovery writer, I have started writing with just one world-building idea, like I want to write about a world where this one cool thing happens. And a lot of my world-building is done while I'm writing my first draft. So, yes, very much my foreshadowing's done in editing. But I do like to do a little bit beforehand, but it's usually just in my head. I might spend three months doing world-building, but only in my head, and it's while I'm writing something else usually. But it can become a distraction from actually writing. It can become a form of procrastination, and I think we all know what happens when you fall down a research rabbit hole as well. That can happen. So, basically, you are going to do more world-building than you actually end up within the book. I think that's always going to happen, that you'll always do a little bit more. But you need to know enough about your world that you know why things are the way they are, because that's how you make things make sense in your world and make it feel like it belongs in the world and in your story, and that's how you make it affect your character. You need to know enough about your world that you know why things are the way that they are. But your readers might not need to know all of that. There are three things that your world-building needs to do in your book. One is to reveal character. Two is to push the plot forward. And three is to explore themes. If they're not doing any of those things, then it is probably info-dumping. You probably don't need it and you can probably leave it out. Now, we like to put lots of colorful things in our world and, like, ‘Oh, that's fun.' I'm a sucker for carnivals. I love writing carnivals and markets into my world. So, I have to be really disciplined. And quite often, yes, it comes in editing for me because I'm a discovery writer, that I have to go back and go, ‘Okay. This world-building, although I love it, it's not actually doing anything for the story at all.' And it's flabbiness, it's just stuff there for world-building's sake. It's not helping push the plot forward or helping your character arc or exploring the themes, then sorry, you have to kill your darlings. It's so hard. Joanna: Or turn it into something that helps something else. So, like obviously, the tavern scene in epic fantasy or even in sci-fi now, you know, like in the ‘Star Wars' bar. Angeline: Yeah. Cantina. Joanna: The cantina now appears in everything. And if it's not there, people get upset. It's like, where's the bar scene? Where's the cantina scene? But you can use that to move character forward as you say. You have to use it for something else. You can't just have a random market. Angeline: Yeah. Sadly. Joanna: I have a lot of tombs and crypts and archeological things, and you just have to find a way to include your world-building in your plot and your character. And you can start wherever. I'm so glad you're a discovery writer, because I feel like with my Mapwalker series, it was like, oh, what would happen if you could walk through maps? That was literally where I started. And then as you said, you thought about it. I thought about, ‘Well, what does that mean? Where does it go, if you carry on; how could that happen?' So you can, as you say, world-build in your head, or, let's talk about maps, because I feel like map-making becomes a sort of fetish object. Angeline: It really is. Joanna: In the world-building sense. And now, first of all, it can be absolutely amazing. And if you have any physical, artistic ability, then go for it. Angeline: Definitely. Joanna: So many of us don't necessarily have that skill. Do we need maps? What are your recommendations around maps? Angeline: When you're writing your first draft, I would say, in 99% of cases, you need a map. Have a map next to you, because it is so useful when you're writing. It's so easy to get lost in your world. If you have a book and your characters are traveling from A to B, and B point is a coastal town at one moment, and then halfway through the next book, or even in the next book of the series, if it's a mountain town, people will notice, your readers will notice. So, having a map, I would say have one. When you're writing, and you've got that map next to you, that's all it's for. No one need ever see it, ever. If it's a childish scrawl on the back of an envelope, that's fine. That's fine, because it only needs to be useful to you. So, you don't need to be an amazing artist to have a map next to you when you're writing. Believe me, I'm not. I'm not an amazing artist at all. So, don't worry about it when you're writing. If you want to include a map in your book, there is loads of help out there for us less artistically-inclined people, which is brilliant. We love that. One of the things you can do is you can hire an artist, and there are actually an increasing number of artists out there who literally specialize in making fantasy maps. And I tell you, they are absolutely stunning. Joanna: Where are you getting those people from? Angeline: Instagram is a good place to get people. And there's a lot on Fiverr as well. Now, I haven't yet hired a map artist. I don't have a specific recommendation of one that I can give, but you go into a fantasy author group on Facebook, ask for a recommendation, and you'll probably be bombarded with recommendations. There are loads of people. And I see it more and more often, people making these amazing… They're so beautiful. Yes, it is definitely a fetish. There are other places that you can get help as well. Like, there's this great program called Inkarnate. It's spelled ‘ink,' as I-N-K. And you can just go online and use that, and you can create a map. Just be careful, because if you want to use the map that you create commercially, you have to pay for a license. And actually, I've been reading a lot of map drawing books recently. The two that have been really helpful to me is Fantasy Mapmaker by Jared Blando, and Fantasy Mapping by Wesley Jones. Honestly, going through those two books and just practicing my drawing, I have got so much better at drawing maps. Those two books are absolutely fantastic. So, there's a lot of help out there for you. Joanna: That's great. I was going to say the only one I've done is the co-written book I did with J Thorn Risen Gods, which is set in New Zealand. So, we did get a map of New Zealand done, and we used 99designs in 2015, and things have moved on since then. Map of New Zealand Aotearoa created for Risen Gods by J.F. Penn and J. Thorn We were really happy with that, and because it's a real place anyway, it wasn't too hard, but I love these resources. And as you say, I think things have moved on so much and there's an increasing amount of artistic talent that you can find to help you. But as you said, be really careful about the licensing. And also, licensing our merchandise, because there's a difference between using a map in the front of a book and using it on a t-shirt, or as a basis of a game, or all these things. So definitely check your contracts with designers around merchandise and other things. Joanna: Any examples of big things that go wrong, and not-so-good worlds, or any problems you see? What are some of the things that people get wrong with world-building? Angeline: Probably the main mistake that people make with world-building is not integrating it into their world properly, so that it doesn't feel like it belongs in the story and it's just bolt-on stuff, but an afterthought. Please don't make world-building your afterthought. That's the biggest mistake that people make. Another one is including too much world-building, going in the opposite direction, and just info-dumping, pouring out pages and pages of history. The best way to explain your world-building to your readers is through showing it. We all know the old adage, ‘Show, don't tell,' and it's exactly the same with world-building. There may be times when you do need to tell a bit of world-building, to explain something in your world, but it's much better to show it. So, telling your readers. You might have to do it now and again, but it's not the ideal. Having characters have a conversation, and explaining part of your world that's slightly better, but you often get that, ‘Oh, as you know, blah, blah, blah,' which is, it's the same as info-dumping. It's exactly the same as info-dumping. You've just put it, that info dump in dialogue. But the best way to reveal your world-building is by showing it through your characters' actions and the way the world affects them, and most importantly, your character's reaction to something, because every time you put something new in your world that is unfamiliar to your reader, so something that doesn't exist in reality, you're adding to their learning curve, and you want to make that learning curve as gentle as possible for them so that they're not hugely confused or overwhelmed by just information. Let your characters show your readers how they should feel about the world. If unicorns are totally normal in your world, then your characters won't react to them. They barely even notice them. And that's a big clue to your readers that they are normal in that world. So including too much makes that learning curve for your readers way too steep, and they'll just be overwhelmed and confused. Good examples of world-building, let's face it, we have to mention Middle Earth. It's the gold standard there. I read a lot of books by M. R. Carey, and he is fantastic at his world-building. What he's particularly very good at is building a culture that really affects the characters, and showing the culture through what the characters do, like their habits and their rituals and things like that. I'm currently reading his ‘Rampart' trilogy, which is post-apocalyptic, and it's a really, really good example of showing how culture affects the characters and just the way they live their everyday lives. Less good examples of world-building or ones I have little niggles with is, for one, it's Narnia. I'm really sorry. I love Narnia. I'm obsessed with ‘The Chronicles of Narnia.' So I'm not bashing ‘Chronicles of Narnia.' I love it. But it does tend to use magic as a crutch excuse for things, like whenever there's a problem or anything, it's like, ‘Oh, it's just magic.' It does tend to use magic as a crutch a little bit too much, but I do love Narnia. The other one is James Cameron's ‘Avatar' movie, which, again, I love. I love it. But oh, there are some real niggles in the way of the evolution of the creatures, like the way that the Na'vi bond to the animals, and basically, it's like mind control. From an evolutionary standpoint, that's a really bizarre vulnerability that would evolve in animals, because it goes completely against survival instinct. But it doesn't matter, because that world does what it set out to do, which was basically to look beautiful for 3D movies, which it did. Joanna: And there's another one coming sometime. Angeline: Yes. I'm looking forward to it. It's great. It's just little niggles, really. Joanna: Those are two good examples because, of course, everyone probably will have in their mind that world of James Cameron that they built, and fit visually, that's an incredible world, because it was built for visual impact. Narnia is a Christian parable, and it's almost like that was the reason for it. Perhaps our reasoning behind our world-building is important. I was also thinking this is genre-specific. You take the big historical epics like Edward Rutherford's and the James Clavell and James Michener, these big doorstop books, where, actually, if you do an info dump as a description of how a cathedral is built, that can actually be part of what a historical fiction reader wants, but done in a way that is genre-specific. Versus an urban fantasy setting with vampires fighting, whatever, you don't want to spend that long discussing the building materials. So, it is very genre-specific. Angeline: It is, yeah, because the different readers of the different genres have very different expectations, and they want very different things. Epic fantasy readers will quite happily read a whole chapter of history, but urban fantasy readers would be far less accepting of that. Joanna: My husband only will listen to audiobooks that are at least 40 hours long. He won't accept an epic fantasy series unless he has to spend 400 hours on. And I'm not joking; these sort of massive epic fantasy series. You have to think about your readers, but again, we write what we love. So you should know what your readers want. We could talk about this forever, but I do want to ask you, one of your books is How to Destroy the World: An Author's Guide to Writing Dystopia and Post-Apocalypse, which I love. I'm always trying to destroy the world. Angeline: Why not? Joanna: If we know that we're going to be setting something in, say, a post-apocalyptic setting, how do we backwards engineer the world, and not front-load it all into the backstory? Angeline: Backwards engineering is fantastic in world-building, because as writers, we're so often used to that question, ‘What if?' It's held up as the ultimate that you should always know the ‘what if' of your books. What if this happened, what would be the consequences of it? But, with backwards engineering, you can start with the consequence. So, then you need to ask yourself, ‘Why?' Why has the world ended up like this all the time? And a lot of time, this is where my world-building ideas start. So many of my stories start from a world-building idea, and it's so often the consequence of something, and then I have to work backwards to find out why. For example, you might have an idea where you want to write about a world where surrogates are billionaires. So, you've got to ask yourself ‘Why?' Why are surrogates all billionaires? Why do they charge and earn so much for their services? You might track it back to a mass infertility issue in the world, or you might track it back to genetic defects, or you might track it back to a growing obsession with athletic bodies, and women just don't want to get pregnant anymore. You can absolutely backwards engineer stuff, which is really good, because sometimes your whole world-building is just based on a really cool idea, where you're like, ‘I really want to write about flying cars.' Backwards engineer it. Work out how they ended up in your world. It's a really, really good way. So, just to keep asking yourself, ‘Why?' and work your way backwards. I'm a big fan of spider diagrams and mind mapping, because for one thing, it allows you to explore loads of different paths, but start with your consequence right in the middle of your page and explore all of these backwards engineering legs outwards, to see what works, choose which one you want to do, and you can start your story at any point along that timeline. You can start your story, if you're writing post-apocalypse, you can start your story at the apocalyptic event. And again, it comes back to showing and not telling. You don't want to info-dump just a chapter of history of how this happened. Show it through your characters' actions, show it through characters having conversations, but not that ‘As you know' conversations. You can start anywhere you want along the timeline. You can show the world falling apart, you can show the consequences of the world falling apart, or you can show both, obviously. You can have the apocalyptic event right in the middle of your novel, if you want to. Backwards engineering is as completely valid as forwards engineering things. You don't actually need to know 10 million years of history of your world.You might want to. Some people do. That's fine, if that's what you're into, but you don't need to know 10 million years' worth of history. And your readers certainly don't need to know it. Especially if you're writing in this world, which a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction is, then you don't need to write a whole load of history, because people know it, because it's the world they live in. You can start at any point and just start to show what's going wrong, because your readers want to see what's changing, what's different, and most importantly, your readers want to see you putting your characters through absolute hell. That's the important bit. When you're writing post-apocalypse and dystopia, just be mean to your characters for a whole novel, you're fine. Joanna: I do read some of this, and it just makes you feel good about living in a culture… Even during a pandemic, you're like, ‘Well, at least it's not like that pandemic in that book.' I mean a Stephen King, The Stand pandemic. Angeline: Absolutely. Yes. Things could always be worse. But, do you know, I always think of post-apoc and dystopia as very hopeful genres. People often think they're really depressing, and I'm like, ‘No. What you do is you get this marginalized character, and you face them against insurmountable odds, and then you watch them succeed. And what's more hopeful than that?' If they can do it, then surely we can as well. If this marginalized person can change the world forever and make it better, then we can as well. They're my favorite genres. I love it. Joanna: Coming back to horror, where you started as well, I feel like horror is very hopeful, because it's not about the monster, it's about fighting the monster, and hopefully, somebody left at the end. Angeline: Hopefully. Joanna: We could talk about this forever, but we're going to end here. Tell us briefly about your Unstoppable Authors podcast, and also the books you have, and all the various things you have available. Angeline: I am the co-host of Unstoppable Authors with H.B. Lyne, who is also a fantasy author. She writes dark fantasy. We're across all of the platforms, so, iTunes, Spotify, all of the others you want to listen on, and you can find us at unstoppableauthors.com. We talk about indie authoring, and all the things to do with that. And we just have a lot of good fun on that podcast. I actually started it solo, as a world-building podcast, but kind of gave up and Holly came along and rescued it. I've currently got four world-building books out. They are available in ebook, but they're also available in paperback. The thing about the paperbacks is you get lots of spaces. It's a workbook, so you've got loads of blank pages, so you can write all your answers to all the prompts and everything. And, then you've got a world-building Bible that you can have next to you while you're writing, so you don't forget anything, which is perfect. My paperbacks are available on Amazon. My ebooks I publish wide, so they're available any way you can get ebooks, and direct from me as well. My website is angelinetrevena.co.uk. Or you can get that from .com. And I'm all over social media as well. Instagram mostly, but also Facebook and Twitter. Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Angeline. That was great. Angeline: Thank you so much for having me.The post Worldbuilding With Angeline Trevena first appeared on The Creative Penn.