Health starts with what we absorb, not just what we eat Dr. Aly Cohen and co-host Dr. Ann Kelley discuss the often-overlooked importance of drinking water quality, the impact of environmental toxins on health, and the connection between gut health and mental well-being. Listen as Dr. Cohen highlights the alarming rise of autoimmune diseases and the role of hormones and chemicals in our health. Learn practical, manageable ways to reduce toxin exposure, while exploring how nutrition, lifestyle choices, education, and community support play a vital role in empowering people to take control of their health. “You don’t have to wait to be saved. You have everything you need to make informed choices and changes that can protect your health now. – Dr. Aly Cohen Time Stamps for Nontoxic Guide to Healthy Living with Dr. Aly Cohen (290) 08:19 The rise of autoimmune diseases 11:17 Understanding gender disparities in autoimmune disorders 13:52 The gut-brain connection 29:10 The impact of environmental chemicals on health 35:03 Practical steps for reducing toxins 41:43 Understanding organic vs. conventional produce 45:14 The dangers of plastics and their effects 56:11 Understanding drinking water safety 01:01:07 Choosing the right water containers About our Guest – Dr. Aly Cohen  Dr. Aly Cohen is a board-certified rheumatologist and integrative medicine physician, recognized nationally for her expertise in environmental health, and medical education. She is the author of Detoxify: The Everyday Toxins Harming Your Immune System and How to Defend Against Them, which connects the dots between everyday chemicals and the epidemic rise in immune disorders and autoimmune disease…and what we CAN all do about it! She continues to teach, lecture, and practice medicine in Princeton, New Jersey. Resources for Nontoxic Guide to Healthy Living with Dr. Aly Cohen (290) Detoxify: Live Clean, Reduce Inflammation, and Reclaim Your Health – Purchase Dr. Cohen’s new book Instagram  – @TheSmartHuman AlyCohenMd – Dr. Aly Cohen’s official website The Smart Human – The Smart Human official website The Smart Human – Youtube channel How to Protect Your Kids from Toxic Chemicals – TEDx Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Join us again in Washington, DC for the 49th Annual Psychotherapy Networker! March 19-22nd! In person and online options available. Get your discounted seat HERE! Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Talkiatry is a 100% online psychiatry practice that provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnoses, and ongoing medication management for conditions like ADHD, anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, OCD, PTSD, insomnia, and more. Head to Talkiatry.com/TU and complete the short assessment to get matched with an in‑network psychiatrist in just a few minutes.

10 years in and still uncensored In this special 10-year anniversary episode, Sue and Ann reflect on a decade of Therapist Uncensored – how it began, how it’s changed, and how the relationships formed have deepened along the way. They share candidly about the influence from our listeners in keeping them curious, accountable, and grounded, as well as the ways their own thinking has evolved through conversations with leading experts and thoughtful audience feedback. Together they explore the joys and tensions of teaching in the mental health space, including the importance of humility, questioning long-held assumptions, and recognizing the limits of any single perspective. This episode is both a celebration and a recommitment – to inclusivity, to amplifying diverse voices, and to ongoing learning in a field that is constantly evolving. And above all, it’s a heartfelt thank-you to the community that has made the last ten years possible. “The podcast itself was going to be this incredible learning machine for us…and there were times we had to move our butts from expert to ignorant.” Time Stamps for 10 Years of TU: Growth, Reflections & the Future (289) 02:49 The journey of growth and learning 05:29 Bridging knowledge and accessibility 11:09 Challenging the traditional narratives 16:42 Navigating vulnerability in conversations 22:08 Lessons from public mistakes 24:58 The landscape of podcasting and mental health Resources & Action Items Nominate your favorite lightbulb moment or episode with our quick survey – therapistuncensored.com/nominations The Equalizer that Wasn’t – Lessons Learned After Ten Years of Mental Health Podcasting – Sue’s newest blog for an even deeper dive $90,990 DONATED to mental health care for BIPOC communities, LGBQI+, trans and genderqueer individuals, artists, musicians and people experiencing homelessness – View HERE! Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – Next one is January 23rd! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Join us again in Washington, DC for the 49th Annual Psychotherapy Networker! March 19-22nd! In person and online options available. Get your discounted seat HERE! Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Talkiatry is a 100% online psychiatry practice that provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnoses, and ongoing medication management for conditions like ADHD, anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, OCD, PTSD, insomnia, and more. Head to Talkiatry.com/TU and complete the short assessment to get matched with an in‑network psychiatrist in just a few minutes.

Welcome 2026! Kicking off the new year with a replay episode from our powerful interview with Dr. Stan Tatkin, this discussion dives into inner workings of relationships from a biological and societal perspective, and his book, In Each Other’s Care. Click Here to View the Original Episode Shownotes  Conflict in relationships is inevitable – find out the ins and outs of repair for healthy relationships. We are back with relationship expert, Dr. Stan Tatkin to explore the inner workings of relationships from a biological and societal perspective, and his new book, In Each Other’s Care. All humans are complicated creatures and if we spend enough time with each other, it’s going to get tense.  That part is OK, but what happens after arguing disconnection or tension is what really matters. Sue Marriott & Dr. Tatkin take a deep dive into addressing conflicts, building secure attachments, and abandoning gender stereotypes for a more inclusive discussion. Follow along to explore healthy interdependence, couples’ purpose, and secure functioning. “A secure functioning partnership works on problems, not each other” – Dr. Stan Tatkin Time Stamps for In Each Other’s Care – Healthy Relationships  5:44 – Dr. Tatkin’s view on telehealth & virtual therapy 8:36 – How PACT approaches virtual therapy 16:05 – Understanding procedural memory 19:08 – Break down of insecure attachment 22:53 – What does secure functioning look like? 28:48 – Attachment in polyamorous relationships 37:47 – Exploring healthy interdependence in relationships 44:50 – An example of a couple’s purpose 53:41 – The importance of gender inclusivity when talking about relationships Resources for today’s episode, In Each Other’s Care – Healthy Relationships Stan Tatkin’s Website – Information about his practice, sessions The PACT Institute – Dr. Tatkin’s official website Relationships are Hard, but Why? – Dr. Tatkin’s TedTalk A free excerpt – from Dr. Tatkin’s new book @DrStanTatkin – Instagram account Dr. Stan Tatkin – Facebook Page @DrStanTatkin – Twitter account Dr. Stan Tatkin – LinkedIn account Dr. Tatkin’s newest book.       About our Guest – Stan Tatkin, PsyD, MFT Clinician, author, researcher, PACT developer, and co-founder of the PACT Institute.  Dr. Tatkin is an assistant clinical professor at UCLA, David Geffen School of Medicine.  He maintains a private practice in Southern California and leads PACT programs in the US and internationally. He is the author of We Do, Wired for Love, Your Brain on Love, Relationship Rx, Wired for Dating, What Every Therapist Ought to Know, and co-author of Love and War in Intimate Relationships, and the recent, In Each Other’s Care.   Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – Next one is January 23rd! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Join us again in Washington, DC for the 49th Annual Psychotherapy Networker! March 19-22nd! In person and online options available. Get your discounted seat HERE!

A replay episode from our powerful interview with Lisa Kays on how improv can deepen conversations around tough topics like race and oppression. Click Here to View the Original Episode Shownotes Improv in Therapy and in Life – Explore the power – and sheer fun – of using improvisation in therapy! Dr. Ann Kelley and Lisa Kays discuss how improv can deepen conversations around tough topics like race and oppression. They examine white supremacy culture and show how improv values like collaboration, slowing down, and embracing complexity can challenge these norms. Improv fosters creativity, playfulness, and self-reflection to help reduce defensiveness and strengthen relationships in everyday life, at work, or in our closest relationships. By creating a supportive, collaborative environment, improv deepens connections and helps people tap into a wider range of emotions. “A culture of improvisation is collaborative – it is nature – you cannot do it by yourself.” – Lisa Kays Time Stamps for Improv in Therapy & Life 03:30 The integration of improv and tough conversations 10:03 The origins of improv and its connection to social justice 14:27 Contrasting white supremacy culture and improv culture 19:20 Questioning cultural norms and valuing relationships 25:29 The power of the ‘And’ in joining and connecting 38:27 The power of improv in building secure relationships 53:25 Embracing creativity and letting go of perfectionism 58:12 Creating a culture of support and collaboration 01:05:04 Applying improv in everyday life 01:09:10 Deepening connections and accessing different emotions About our Guest for Improv Therapy – Lisa Kays LICSW, LCSW, LCSW-C Lisa Kays, LICSW, LCSW-C, LCSW, is an independently licensed clinical social worker in Washington, D.C, Maryland, Virginia, Oregon and New Jersey. She obtained her MSW from Catholic University in 2011 and has worked in a variety of clinical settings. Since 2013, she has been in private practice, providing individual, couples and group therapy to adults. She has interest in social work ethic and has published on and leads ethics training on the intersection of technology, social media and social work ethics as well as anti-racism and systemic oppression. Her practice also provides opportunities for other presenters to develop CE trainings on under-taught topics linked to social justice, systemic racism, and oppression. In addition to her traditional psychotherapy work, Lisa was a performing improviser from 2007-2019 and was on the faculty of Washington Improv Theatre from 2008-2016. She developed Washington Improv Theater’s first Improv for Therapist’s class and has offered Improv for Therapists courses, workshops and trainings to individual clinicians, pastors, life coaches, and psychiatrists, as well as clinical agencies. Since its inception, Lisa has trained more than 500 people in the application of improvisation to foster personal growth and stronger and more cohesive groups. Lisa has been invited to lead trainings in improv-informed therapy at the American Academy of Psychotherapists, the Mid-Atlantic Group Psychotherapy Association, the American Group Psychotherapy Association, and at The Psychotherapy Networker, among others. Her work has been featured in The Washington Post and on NBC4. Recently, Lisa launched a humor, humility-infused podcast, “What if Nothing’s Wrong With You?” with co-host Paula D. Atkinson on themes related to therapy, mental health, oppression, patriarchy and how it’s all interconnected. Resources for Improv Therapy –  Lisa Kay’s – Website & Resources The Fierce Urgency of Now: Improvisation, Rights, and the Ethics of Cocreation (Improvisation, Community, and Social Practice) – by Fischlin, Daniel; Heble, Ajah; Lipsitz, George Theater Games – Viola Spolin Resources Rehearsals for Growth – Website and Educational Resources Decolonizing Therapy: Oppression, Historical Trauma, and Politicizing Your Practice – book by Jennifer Mullan, PsyD The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron – Book and Resources Free Play: Improvisation in Life and Art – Nachmanovitch, Stephen Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – Next one is January 23rd! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!!

A replay episode from our powerful interview with Jeff Lutes, this discussion dives into raising families, the evolution of the community, allyship, gender, and the importance of advocacy. Click Here to View the Original Episode Shownotes   “There are a lot of therapists that see themselves as affirming, but I think you have to get actively involved in order to be an ally.” – Jeff Lutes Time Stamps for Advocating for the LGBTQ+ Community  2:00 – Jeff’s anecdotes about religion and sexuality 11:18 – How advocacy can be a thankless job  12:00 – Introduction to the Contemporary Relationships Conference  14:34 – The difference between being trained in accepting versus educated  16:48 – The importance of knowing the correct terminology  20:39 – What we can learn from the polyamorous community  22:58 – Definition of queer and who that represents 24:37 – Let’s talk about pronouns  31:21 – Explanation of dead naming and why it is wrong 42:15 – Conversion therapy research and findings  47:00: Trailblazers in Love, Jeff’s book  Resources for today’s episode Advocating for the LGBTQ+ Community  Jeff Lute’s Website – Information, credentials, presentations and publications Contemporary Relationships Conference – Conference information and proposals Get your copy of his book, Trailblazers in Love, here!! About our Guest – Jeff Lutes, LPC Jeff specializes in creating collaborative conversations with clients that generate new possibilities for change.  Using a postmodern approach, he listens carefully to each client’s story and strives to understand how they might make meaning of themselves, others, and the world around them. He founded the Contemporary Relationships Conference and has presented to audiences around the country, including the American Association of Marriage & Family Therapy,  the American Family Therapy Academy, the American Counseling Association, and the Texas Psychological Association. He is also the author of Trailblazers In Love, as well as chapters in three counseling textbooks. Lutes also wrote a children’s book about adoption, deaf culture, and non-traditional families and has been a contributing writer at Bilerico and Therapy Matters. Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – Next one is January 23rd! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to Zocdoc.com/TU to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today.

A replay episode from our powerful interview with Dr. Shena Young Click Here to View the Original Episode Shownotes  “The more that we unlearn, the more that we decolonize our minds, bodies, hearts and spirits” – Dr. Shena Young Join co-host Sue Marriott and Dr. Shena Young as they dive into liberation psychology and the conflict between intuition and the traditional European model of psychology. Dr. Shena highlights embodying a holistic approach to help heal traumas and deeply root us in our most authentic selves. Whether through connections with nature or the exploration of ancestral traditions, this discussion is enriched with various opportunities to reconnect and liberate our mind, body, heart, and spirit. About our Guest – Dr. Shena Young (She/Her) Affectionately known as Dr. Shena (she/her) & spiritually as Iya Osunbunmi Orisasewa, she is a licensed embodiment-focused psychologist–healer, artist, mental health futurist, on-set wellbeing professional, and priestess in the Isese tradition of Ifa. She holds space internationally for individuals, couples, groups, and organizations committed to the ritual of calling themselves back into their bodies as a freedom practice. She owns a private practice, embodied truth healing & psychological services, rooted in Los Angeles, CA where she offers mind–body–heart–spirit care in healing from sexual, racial, intergenerational, and ancestral traumas. Time Stamps for Embodying Liberation Psychology  1:30 – Dr. Shena’s journey with liberation psychology and decolonization 7:25 – Dr. Shena’s early life and intuition 9:48 – Body language is one of our first languages 18:58 – Understanding the pillars of authenticity  20:52 – Embracing the mind, body, heart, spirit approach 28:21 – Unlearning scarcity and expecting abundance 33:29 – Thinking of currency as seeds 41:37 – New interests in ancient traditions 44:11 – What the act of grounding may look like  51:45 – The decriminalization of psychedelic plant medicines  56:30 – There is power in practicing choice 1:05:01 – Impact of The Color Purple Resources for today’s episode – Embodying Liberation Psychology EmbodiedTruthHealing.com – Dr. Shena’s website Healing Opportunities with Dr. Shena @EmbodiedTruthHealing – Dr. Shena’s Instagram Invest in healing programs for BIPOC Dr. Clenora Hudson-Weems website – Where Dr. Shena first learned about Africana Womanist theory Body Rites – Dr. Shena’s book. Get your copy!! Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Whether it’s your first time in therapy or your fiftieth, Grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0, depending on their plan. Visit GrowTherapy.com/TU today to get started. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

Behind every family estrangement is a story of love, hurt, and boundaries Dr. Ann Kelley is joined LIVE from Psychotherapy Networker with Dafna Lender, to explore the complex dynamics of parent-child estrangement. Focusing on the emotional and psychological impacts of cutting off family relationships, together they highlight the cultural influences that contribute to these estrangements, the therapeutic perspectives on navigating such situations, and the importance of empathy and boundaries in managing family dynamics. This conversation is about learning to hold both empathy and boundaries – understanding why someone might step away, and how to stay grounded and compassionate in the process. It’s an honest look at the heartbreak, the healing, and the hope that can emerge when families face difficult truths. Time Stamps for Navigating Family Estrangement: The Space Between Love & Self-Protection with Dafna Lender (284) 03:06 Understanding the impact of estrangement 05:58 Cultural influences on family cutoffs 09:14 Therapeutic perspectives on estrangement 17:54 Boundaries and the spectrum of estrangement 32:52 Navigating boundaries and self-protection 46:31 Finding meaning in senselessness 52:21 Exploring values in relationships About our Guest – Dafna Lender  Dafna is a family therapy expert and attachment specialist. Dafna is an international trainer and supervisor for practitioners who work with children and families. She is a certified trainer and supervisor/consultant in both Theraplay and Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy (DDP), as well as an EMDR therapist. Dafna’s expertise is drawn from 28 years of working with families in many settings: at-risk after school programs, therapeutic foster care, in-home crisis stabilization, residential care and private practice. Dafna is author of Integrative Attachment Family Therapy (2023) and the co-author of Theraplay the Practitioner’s Guide (2020). She teaches and supervises clinicians in 15 countries in 4 languages: English, Hebrew, French and Spanish. Resources for Navigating Family Estrangement: The Space Between Love & Self-Protection with Dafna Lender (284) Dafna’s website – Resources, courses & additional information Integrative Attachment Family Therapy: A Clinical Guide to Heal and Strengthen the Parent-Child Relationship through Play, Co-regulation, and Meaning-Making – Get your copy of her paperback Theraplay the Practitioners Guide – The definitive guide to Theraplay® for practitioners, officially endorsed by the Theraplay® Institute Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to Zocdoc.com/TU to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today.

This episode challenges what you thought you knew about autism, attachment, and empathy Join Sue Marriott and Dr. Sean Inderbitzen – an autistic psychotherapist and advocate for neurodiversity – as he shares his powerful personal and professional journey in understanding autism. Together, they explore the evolution of autism diagnosis, the intersections between attachment and neurodivergence, and how polyvagal theory can both illuminate and complicate the autistic experience. Dr. Inderbitzen offers insights on self-diagnosis, identity formation, and what truly person-centered therapy looks like for autistic individuals. This conversation highlights the central role of trust, safety, and authentic connection in helping neurodivergent clients thrive. “…Autism in Polyvagal Terms… is about giving people the tools they need, specifically giving therapists the tools they need to help autistic clients with a lens that really familiar with.” – Sean Inderbitzen, DSW, LCSW Time Stamps for Autism in Polyvagal Terms with Dr. Sean Inderbitzen (283) 01:43 Understanding Autism: A personal journey 03:38 Defining Autism: Perspectives and misconceptions 07:11 The evolution of autism diagnosis 11:31 The debate on ‘disorder’ in autism 24:59 Neuroaffirming Therapy: What does it mean? 31:21 Heart rate variability and autism 37:27 Understanding attachment and autism 41:24 The complexity of autism and parenting 44:09 Navigating the ethical quandaries in autism care 57:28 Upcoming events and future works About our Guest – Sean M. Inderbitzen, DSW, LCSW Sean M. Inderbitzen, DSW, LCSW, an autistic psychotherapist and researcher through Mayo Clinic Health System. He regularly trains healthcare professionals to be more confident when working with people on the spectrum. Resources for Autism in Polyvagal Terms with Dr. Sean Inderbitzen (283) Autism in Polyvagal Terms: New Possibilities and Interventions – Get your copy of his book, here!! Information, resources, books & more! Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – Next one is November 14th! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Whether it’s your first time in therapy or your fiftieth, Grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0, depending on their plan. Visit GrowTherapy.com/TU today to get started. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

Healing is political — and storytelling is the revolution. José Rosario shares the transformative role of storytelling in healing and liberation. He invites therapists to move beyond traditional coping frameworks and embrace radical healing – an approach that centers cultural wisdom, intersectional identity, and community empowerment. Together, Sue and José discuss how clinicians can respond to hate-based violence, recognize collective trauma, and actively dismantle systems of harm. José also shares his personal journey toward self-acceptance and the playful practices that sustain his work, offering inspiration for those seeking to uplift marginalized voices through creativity and connection. “What a disservice it is to silence ourselves when we have so much to give to the world.” – José Rosario Time Stamps for Storytelling as Medicine: Decolonizing Therapy with José Rosario (282) 05:21 Intersectional identities and personal narratives 11:17 Empathy vs. action in therapy 19:36 Dismantling ableism in therapy 23:08 Understanding hate-motivated violence 31:36 The role of therapists in community healing 36:31 Finding meaning in adversity 38:04 The Phoenix Empowered: A call to action About our Guest – José Rosario  Born to young Puerto Rican parents, José Rosario developed Cerebral Palsy as a premature baby. His family’s journey towards equity deeply impacted his mental health. Currently nearing his PhD in Clinical Psychology, his research focuses on cultural trauma in intersectional communities. He is an Interdisciplinary Minority Fellow for the American Psychological Association, member of the Congressional Diversity and Equality Advisory Board for Congressman James Langevin, and member of the Rhode Island Attorney General Community Advisory Board. He has been honored with the Chris Martin Humanitarian Award and the Victoria Lederberg Award for Excellence in Psychology. Resources for Storytelling as Medicine: Decolonizing Therapy with José Rosario (282) The Phoenix Empowered – Storytelling and education to amplify the experiences of minoritized communities, facilitate an inclusive mental health conversation, and empower systemic change. Phoenix Unbound – Show hosted by José Rosario Enjoying this episode? Check out these other similar TU episodes! https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/decolonizing-mental-health-delivery-with-melody-li-part-1-episode-226/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/decolonizing-mental-health-delivery-with-melody-li-part-2-episode-228/ Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  HUGE OPPORTUNITY, No Kidding!  $199 instead of $499! Superpower’s mission is simple: to democratize health and make proactive, preventive care affordable and accessible for every body. So if you’re ready to stop guessing and start taking control of your health, head to Superpower.com to learn more and lock in the special $199 price while it lasts. Use discount code TU at checkout. Superpower.com Cure is offering 20% off your first order! Stay hydrated and feel your best by visiting curehydration.com/TU and using promo code TU at checkout. With added vitamin and minerals, and an upgraded probiotic blend, the new formula is more comprehensive than ever, helping to support immune health, gut health, energy, and more! Check it out at drinkag1.com/TherapistUncensored

Can we save our relationships – and our democracy – one conversation at a time? Image: The Project Twins – Art from the Braver Angels, Seattle Dr. Ann Kelley sits down with Dr. Bill Doherty to explore the idea of “Citizen Therapists” and how therapists — and all of us — can help bridge divides in a polarized world. Together, they dive into discernment counseling for couples on the brink of divorce, the groundbreaking work of Braver Angels in fostering dialogue across political differences, and the skills we all need for hard but healing conversations. This conversation highlights the power of curiosity, respectful boundaries, and understanding – whether in our closest relationships or across society. “Conflict entrepreneurs, people who make their living using various megaphones to tell us that the people on the other side are evil, and not to be trusted.” – William Doherty Time Stamps for Saving Relationships in a Polarized World: Bill Doherty on Citizen Therapists & Political Healing (281) 08:14 Exploring political divides in relationships 10:58 Braver Angels: Bridging political divides 13:29 The Fishbowl method: Creating safe spaces for dialogue 19:00 Values over policies: Finding common ground 29:13 Boundaries in political conversations 32:43 Understanding political views through stories 37:44 Desire for connection vs. differentiation 44:24 Bringing therapeutic skills to public discourse 51:08 Access to affordable healthcare 01:00:37 Managing family dynamics 01:07:00 Becoming a citizen therapist About our Guest – Dr. William J. Doherty  Bill Doherty is a Professor Emeritus in the Department of Family Social Science at the University of Minnesota. As a therapist, he focuses on couples on the brink of divorce and on political stress in relationships. He has authored 14 books for professionals and the public. Following the 2016 U.S. Presidential election, he co-founded Braver Angels, a citizen initiative bringing conservatives and liberals together to counteract political polarization and restore the fraying social fabric in American society. Bill is the chief designer of the Braver Angels workshops and has conducted sessions all over the country, including for corporations, state legislatures, and the Problem Solvers Caucus in Congress. Braver Angels now has volunteers working in all 50 states. Among his awards is the Lifetime Achievement Award from the American Family Therapy Academy. Resources for Saving Relationships in a Polarized World: Bill Doherty on Citizen Therapists & Political Healing (281)  Braver Angels – Website and resources leading the nation’s largest cross-partisan, volunteer-led movement “Becoming a Citizen Therapist: Integrating Community Problem-Solving Into Your Work as a Healer” – Purchase your copy by William J. Doherty and Tai J. Mendenhall Enjoying this episode? Check out these other similar TU episodes! https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu153-how-good-boundaries-actually-bring-us-closer-replay-with-juliane-taylor-shore/ Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!!

Patreon/Supercast Special Release – Bonus – Harnessing “Genius Energy”: The Art of Wise Effort for Growth with Dr. Diana Hill (280) This is a sneak peek of our episode with Dr. Diana Hill – available only on our Premium Supercast and Patreon platforms. For as little as $5/month you can have access to special releases like this one, first-to-know about upcoming events and discounts and an ad-free feed. Click here to join & finish the episode!! Ann Kelley and Diana Hill dive into the concept of wise effort and its impact on how we manage our energy in both personal and professional life. They explore the difference between life force energy and anxiety, the role of emotional sensitivity, and why community resilience matters. Diana shares insights on how to wisely channel your “genius energy,” break free from stuck patterns, and cultivate compassionate connections that support growth and balance. “It’s not about doing more, but doing wisely.” – Dr. Diana Hill Time Stamps for Bonus – Harnessing “Genius Energy”: The Art of Wise Effort for Growth with Dr. Diana Hill (280) 09:54 Distinguishing life force from anxiety 19:12 Channeling “genius energy” wisely 26:36 Recognizing stuck energy patterns 34:50 Compassion and common humanity 37:01 Co-regulation and wise-energy use 48:22 Harnessing “genius energy” for change About our Guest – Dr. Diana Hill Diana Hill, Ph.D. is a modern psychologist, international trainer, and a leading expert on Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and compassion. Drawing from the most current psychological research and contemplative practices, Diana bridges science with real-life application to help organizations and individuals develop psychological flexibility so that they can grow fulfilling and impactful lives. She is the host of the Wise Effort podcast and author of four books including Wise Effort: How to Focus Your Genius Energy on What Matters Most, I Know I Should Exercise, But…: 44 Reasons We Don’t Move and How to Get Over Them, The Self-Compassion Daily Journal, and ACT Daily Journal. She has been featured on NPR, Wall Street Journal, Psychology Today, and numerous other media channels. She lives in Santa Barbara, California. Looking for our Upcoming Events? Click here!! Our Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW! Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s

Trauma to tech: how technology may be reshaping our approach to therapy Benjamin Fry, a psychotherapist and founder of Khiron Clinics, joins Sue Marriott to discuss his personal experience with trauma and how it influenced his therapeutic work. He talks about building his clinic and exploring innovative approaches like EMDR and somatic experiencing, which led him to help develop the PhysioCam—a technology that allows clients to see their nervous system responses in real time. As mental health treatment continues to evolve with new technologies, Benjamin and Sue explore how education and better access to care can support healing and offer hope to those who need it. “For many, the body is not a safe place to go to anymore, so they lose the valuable cues that come from these vital evolved pathways. The PhysioCam helps them recover it, like a pair of crutches help people with injuries to walk again” – Benjamin Fry Time Stamps for Where Entrepreneurship Meets Therapy: Introducing PhysioCam with Benjamin Fry (279) 04:22 Benjamin’s personal journey and early life 13:26 Discussing trauma treatment in America 17:37 Establishing the clinic and innovative therapies 21:50 The necessary evolution of trauma treatment 38:51 Introducing PhysioCam: A new tool in therapy 49:15 The importance of psychoeducation 54:44 Khiron clinics and The Invisible Lion About our Guest – Benjamin Fry, Psychotherapist, Author and Entrepreneur Benjamin is the founder of Khiron Clinics, one of the world’s leading residential trauma-treatment centres, and Televagal, an innovative mental health technology platform. An accredited psychotherapist, couples therapist, speaker, author, and entrepreneur, he has written four books, including The Invisible Lion: How to Tame your Nervous System and Heal your Trauma. With a diverse career spanning psychology, media, and business, Benjamin read Physics and Philosophy at Oxford University and then did an MFA in Film Production at USC, directing a feature-length film distributed by HBO and Paramount. He later went on to set up various enterprises in the hospitality industry before completing an MA in Psychotherapy and Counselling at Regent’s College and an Executive MBA from Oxford University. His first book led to his role as the expert psychotherapist on the BBC series Spendaholics. Benjamin speaks at mental health conferences worldwide, raising awareness of the effectiveness of nervous system-based therapies for treating trauma. He also delivers workshops to help people optimize and heal their relationships through trauma-informe practices and education. Resources for Where Entrepreneurship Meets Therapy: Introducing PhysioCam with Benjamin Fry (279) Khiron Clinics – Benjamin’s global trauma recovery center, information & resources The Invisible Lion – Bejnamin’s recent book on taming your nervous system and healing trauma Televagal – PhysioCam transforms your telehealth sessions into a powerful window into your client’s nervous system Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – Next Q&A September 5th! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!!

This is part 2 of episode 274, Feel It to Heal It: The Science of Interoception with Rebecca Kase – you can listen to part 1 HERE! Patreon/Supercast Special Release – Feel It to Heal It, Continued: Applying the Science of Interoception (278) This is a sneak peek of our part 2 episode with Rebecca Kase – available only on our Premium Supercast and Patreon platforms. For as little as $5/month you can have access to special releases like this one, first-to-know about upcoming events and discounts and an ad-free feed. Click here to join & finish the episode!! In this half of the conversation, Rebecca Kase and the Sue dig deeper into the concept of interoception, emphasizing its significance in therapy and personal well-being. They discuss how our physiological states influence our narratives and the importance of breath in regulating these states. From the roles of implicit and explicit memory in shaping our experiences to how adaptive and maladaptive memories affect our mental health, they highlight therapeutic approaches to updating narratives and the journey of healing and resilience, providing practical tools for therapists and resources for further learning. “Stay curious… tune into the part of you that has the sense of knowing that something happened, even if you don’t have explicit declarative memory of it… your body remembers that.” – Rebecca Kase, LCSW, RYT Time Stamps for Bonus – Feel It to Heal It, Continued: Applying the Science of Interoception (278) 02:36 The role of breath in physiological state 08:11 The impact of context on physiological responses 10:46 Memory and its influence on our narratives 13:49 Exploring implicit and explicit memories 16:39 Adaptive vs. maladaptive memories 22:27 Therapeutic approaches to updating narratives 30:35 Resources for further learning Listen to Feel It to Heal It: The Science of Interoception with Rebecca Kase – you can listen to part 1 HERE! https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/feel-it-to-heal-it-the-science-of-interoception-with-rebecca-kase-274/ Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – next Q&A September 5th! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.

What if the problem isn’t your body—but the diet culture you’ve been sold? Dr. Ann Kelley and expert Judith Matz unpack the complex relationship between dieting, emotional eating, body image, and weight stigma. Together they challenge conventional views on weight and health, emphasizing that fitness matters more than the number on the scale, and explores why most diets fail both psychologically and physiologically. They also cover the historical roots of fatphobia, the dangers of weight bias in healthcare, and the rise of weight loss drugs like Ozempic. Judith highlights the importance of attuned eating, informed consent, and compassionate care, offering a weight-inclusive approach to healing our relationship with food and body. “On an individual level, I’d like to see people become free from the diet/binge trap and instead find peace in their relationship with food and their body. On a cultural level, I’d like to see all of us stop putting out messages that blame and shame people about eating and body size.” – Judith Matz, LCSW, ACSW About our Guest – Judith Matz, LCSW, ACSW Judith Matz, LCSW, ACSW, is a therapist, nationally recognized speaker, and consultant on the topics of diet culture, binge eating, emotional eating, body image, and weight stigma. She is co-author of the new Emotional Eating, Chronic Dieting, Binge Eating and Body Image Workbook, as well as The Diet Survivor’s Handbook, Beyond a Shadow of a Diet, The Making Peace with Food Card Deck, and The Body Positivity Card Deck. Judith offers continuing education and training for professionals through PESI as well as customized presentations for a variety companies and organizations. Judith’s work has been featured in the media including NPR, The New York Times, Good Housekeeping and Psychotherapy Networker. She has a private practice via telehealth in Illinois where she meets with clients seeking to heal their relationship with food and their bodies. Find her at www.judithmatz.com and on Instagram @judmatz Resources for Why Diets Don’t Work—and What to Do Instead with Judith Matz (277) Judith Matz – Website, information and resources Emotional Eating, Chronic Dieting, Bingeing and Body Image: What Every Clinician Needs to Know – Judith Matz’s full day PESI training Fearing the Black Body: The Racial Origins of Fat Phobia – Book by Sabrina Strings recommend by Judith Matz What We Don’t Talk About When We Talk About Fat – Book by Aubrey Gordon recommended by Judith Matz Anti-Diet: Reclaim Your Time, Money, Well-Being, and Happiness Through Intuitive Eating – Book by Christy Harrison recommended by Judith Matz Enjoy this episode? Check out other similar topics –  https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/disordered-eating-attachment-intuition-cultural-influence-266/ Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – Next Q&A September 5th! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!!

Patreon/Supercast Special Release – Don’t Cancel – Connect: Loretta J. Ross on Activism with Heart (276) This is a sneak peek of our episode with Loretta J. Ross – available only on our Premium Supercast and Patreon platforms. For as little as $5/month you can have access to special releases like this one, first-to-know about upcoming events and discounts and an ad-free feed. Click here to join & finish the episode!! If you’re tired of cancel culture but still care about justice – this conversation is for you In 2022, we had the privilege of having Loretta J. Ross on the podcast to discuss “Calling in the Call Out Culture”. With the publication of her new book, “Calling In: How to Start Making Change with Those You’d Rather Cancel” – we felt this message was just as relevant as ever. Together, Sue Marriott and Loretta J. Ross explore the themes of social justice, empathy, and the importance of dialogue in navigating political divides. Loretta shares insights from her book, discussing the need for compassion and under standing in activism. They delve into the complexities of human relationships, the balance between calling in and calling out, and the significance of individual experiences in shaping political views. The conversation emphasizes the power of community engagement and the role of personal growth in fostering a more just society. Click here to get your copy! “I’m not trying to build a bigger call-out culture. I’m trying to build a human rights movement that includes everybody—even the people we don’t like.” – Loretta J. Ross About our Guest – Loretta J. Ross Loretta J. Ross is an activist, professor, and public intellectual. In her five decades in the human rights movement, she’s deprogramed white supremacists, taught convicted rapists the principles of feminism, and, as National Co-Director, organized the second-largest march on Washington (in April 25, 2004, March for Women’s Lives in Washington D.C., surpassed in size only by the 2017 Women’s March). A cofounder of the National Center for Human Rights Education and the SisterSong Women of Color Reproductive Justice Collective, her many accolades and honors include a 2022 MacArthur Fellowship and a 2024 induction into the National Women’s Hall of Fame. Today, Ross is an associate professor at Smith College in Northampton, Massachusetts, and is the founder of LoRossta Consulting, with which she runs “Calling In” training sessions online and for organizations around the country. Interested in her previous interview? Check out our original discussion on cancel culture –  https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/call-out-culture-168/ Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – next Q&A September 5th! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.

Use the VCR Method to navigate difficult conversations without retreating or conflicting.  In this powerful conversation, one of the most influential voices on racial justice and family therapy, Dr. Kenneth Hardy talks with Dr. Ann Kelley about the VCR Method (Validate, Challenge, Request) for navigating difficult conversations without retreating into silence or conflict. Hardy reveals how White-bodied folks and People of Color/Culture (POC) can move beyond either/or thinking by recognizing their multiple selves – the parts that hold privilege and the parts that experience subjugation – no matter who you are.  Key insights include Hardy’s concept of “invisible wounds” – the unnamed racial trauma that affects people of color daily – and why the expectation for Black people to “take the high road” actually perpetuates harm. Through a real example from a heated workshop exchange with a white student, Hardy demonstrates the VCR approach in action, showing how validation, strategic challenge, and clear requests can keep us connected through rupture rather than defaulting to our most activated, subjugated responses. This episode offers practical tools for therapists and anyone seeking more authentic, healing-centered conversations about difference in general and particularly, race and privilege. Hardy’s framework challenges us to develop both a racial lens and a clear sense of our racial selves, moving from fragility toward the courage to stay in relationship even when conversations get difficult. “We all have two dimensions of ourselves-  a preferred racial view and a dreaded one.” Dr. Kenneth V. Hardy “Racial oppression is a traumatic form of interpersonal violence which can lacerate the spirit, scar the soul, and puncture the psyche.” – Dr. Kenneth V. Hardy Timestamps for Beyond the High Road: New Perspectives on Discussing Race and Privilege with Dr. Kenneth V. Hardy (275) 05:13 Invisible wounds and racial trauma 07:40 The importance of naming and acknowledgment 15:38 Developing a racial lens as a therapist 18:16 The complexity of privilege and subjugation 23:50 Case Study: A white woman’s reaction to privilege 26:48 The intersection of class and race 40:14 The VCR Model: Engaging conversations on race 45:39 Compassionate accountability in conversations 51:13 Hope amidst DEI challenges About our Guest – Dr. Kenneth V. Hardy Dr. Kenneth V. Hardy is a Clinical and Organizational Consultant at the Eikenberg Institute for Relationships in Newark, DE, where he also serves as Director. He is also the Founder and President of the Eikenberg Academy for Social Justice. He provides Racially Focused Trauma Informed training, executive coaching, and consultation to a diverse network of individuals and organizations throughout the United States and abroad. He is a former Professor of Family Therapy at both Drexel University in Philadelphia, and Syracuse University in New York, and has also served as the Director of Children, Families, and Trauma at the Ackerman Institute for the Family in New York, NY. Resources for Healing the Invisible Wounds of Racism with Dr. Kenneth V. Hardy Eikenberg Academy for Social Justice – President Kenneth V. Hardy, website and resources “On Becoming a Racially Sensitive Therapist: Race and Clinical Practice” – Book by Dr. Kenneth V. Hardy  “Racial Trauma Clinical Strategies and Techniques for Healing Invisible Wounds” – Book by Dr. Kenneth V. Hardy “The Enduring, Invisible, and Ubiquitous Centrality of Whiteness” – Book by Dr. Kenneth V. Hardy “Some subtleties of whiteness in the workplace: Steps for shifting the paradigm” – Journal by Dr. Kenneth V. Hardy Enjoying this episode? Check out many other relevant Therapist Uncensored episodes, only two are listed below (use search bar on our website for anything you are interested in learning).  https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/navigating-racial-trauma-part-1-203/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/racial-trauma-challenges-traditional-therapy-part-2-sriw-series-ep-3-204-2/ NEW!  Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – Next Q&A September 5th! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  HUGE OPPORTUNITY, No Kidding!  $199 instead of $499 starting 8/14/25! Superpower’s mission is simple: to democratize health and make proactive, preventive care affordable and accessible for every body. So if you’re ready to stop guessing and start taking control of your health, head to Superpower.com to learn more and lock in the special $199 price while it lasts. Use discount code TU at checkout. Superpower.com With added vitamin and minerals, and an upgraded probiotic blend, the new formula is more comprehensive than ever, helping to support immune health, gut health, energy, and more! Check it out at drinkag1.com/TherapistUncensored This book on Modern Attachment has an entire chapter dedicated to “When System’s Create Insecurity” to follow up on this topic.  Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!

Could interoception, your body’s ability to perceive internal signals like your heartbeat, breathing and emotions, be the missing link in trauma therapy? Sue Marriott is joined by Rebecca Kase to explore how understanding the nervous system—especially the concept of interoception—can support healing from trauma. Rebecca shares her personal story as a survivor and highlights the importance of creating safety, tuning into the body’s internal signals, and approaching somatic work with compassion. Together, they unpack how interoception differs from general perception, why it matters in therapy, and how small, gradual steps can help rebuild connection with the body. “Stay curious… tune into the part of you that has the sense of knowing that something happened, even if you don’t have explicit declarative memory of it… your body remembers that.” – Rebecca Kase, LCSW, RYT Time Stamps for Feel It to Heal It: The Science of Interoception with Rebecca Kase (274) 02:45 Rebecca’s journey and healing 05:17 Understanding safety and the nervous system 08:15 Exploring interoception 10:46 The role of perception in therapy 13:33 Connecting with the body 16:15 Practical steps for body awareness About our Guest – Rebecca Kase LCSW, RYT Rebecca Kase, LCSW, RYT is a licensed clinical social worker, yoga teacher, author, and nationally recognized expert in trauma therapy. She’s the founder of The Trauma Therapist Institute, where she trains thousands of clinicians each year in EMDR, Polyvagal Theory, and integrative mind-body approaches to healing. Rebecca is the author of Polyvagal-Informed EMDR and self-help book The Polyvagal Solution, which helps readers understand and work with their nervous system to create lasting change. Known for her warmth, clarity, and deep clinical insight, Rebecca brings science to life in a way that’s accessible, empowering, and rooted in real-world healing. When she’s not writing, teaching, or speaking, you can find her nerding out on neuroscience, gardening, or daydreaming about her next horse property. Resources for Feel It to Heal It: The Science of Interoception with Rebecca Kase (274) The Polyvagal Solution: Vagus Nerve-Calming Practices to Soothe Stress, Ease Emotional Overwhelm, and Build Resilience – Book by Rebecca Kase Polyvagal-Informed EMDR: A Neuro-Informed Approach to Healing – Book by Rebecca Kase The Applied Polyvagal Theory Flip Chart – A Psychoeducational tool to harness the power of the vagus nerve Enjoying this episode? Check out similar topics! https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/addiction-attachment-the-felt-sense-polyvagal-model-with-jan-winhall-193/   Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – Next Q&A September 5th! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Ann’s FAVORITE!  Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms! Right now, you can get 20% off plus a FREE starter kit when you shop exclusively Piquelife.com/tu

Patreon/Supercast Special Release – That “Fraud” Feeling: The Surprising Truth about Imposter Syndrome with Dr. Jill Stoddard (273) This is a sneak peek of our episode with Dr. Jill Stoddard – available only on our Premium Supercast and Patreon platforms. For as little as $5/month you can have access to special releases like this one, first-to-know about upcoming events and discounts and an ad-free feed. Click here to join & finish the episode!! Dr. Ann Kelley is joined by Dr. Jill Stoddard as they unpack the complexities of imposter syndrome—why it shows up, who it impacts most, and how to move through it. Drawing on her expertise in psychological flexibility and values-based living, Dr. Stoddard shares strategies to navigate self-doubt, marginalization, and internalized insecurity. Learn how to reframe discomfort, build a healthier relationship with vulnerability, and use these moments as powerful opportunities for connection and growth. Photo by Orlando Magazine “Imposter ‘syndrome’ is not your fault. It’s the result of a system telling you – you don’t belong at the table.” – Dr. Jill Stoddard About our Guest – Dr. Jill Stoddard  Dr. Jill Stoddard is passionate about sharing her expertise in psychology to help people flourish in their work and health. She is an international and TEDx speaker, award-winning former professor, three-time book author, licensed psychologist, coach, and co-host of the Psychologists Off the Clock podcast which is ranked in the top .5% worldwide. Dr. Stoddard is an entrepreneur who founded Flexible Communications, LLC, in Massachusetts, and The Center for Stress and Anxiety Management in California. Her books have been translated into twelve languages and include: The Big Book of ACT Metaphors; Be Mighty; and Imposter No More. Her thoughts have also appeared in the Washington Post, New York Times, Woman’s World, Today.com, Psychology Today, Scary Mommy, Thrive Global, The Good Men Project, Mindful Return, The Boston Globe, and more. She regularly appears on podcasts and as an expert source for various media outlets. She lives in Newburyport, MA with her husband, two kids, and disobedient French Bulldog. As Central Texas residents, this is highly personal to us in so many ways. We are following up on the absolutely devastating and unprecedented Texas floods with more ways to help from anywhere. I’m thinking of not just the obvious and immediate impact, but of all those actively engaged right now – professional first responders, but also the thousands of regular people pitching in. It’s human connection and grit that will help our communities recover over the next several years. Neighbors (in the largest sense) pulling together are how humans survive natural disasters and we will get through this together. If you are able, please give what you can to help out – Click Here to Donate!! Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount.

Reconnecting to natural, community-based healing radically expands options for mental healthcare. This is a don’t episode if you care about your community. Using grandmothers and indigenous wisdom means effective care is possible everywhere… Sue Marriott continues practical exploration of liberation psychology and communty-centered care by learning from Zimbabwe-based psychiatrist, Dr. Dixon Chibanda.  Don’t miss the first episode about this research based program.  Dr. Chibanda shares his powerful story behind the Friendship Bench, a community-based mental health model that centers healing in the heart of local communities and his new book, launching this week! They explores how grandmothers (not youth or grandfather’s so much – find out why) are often overlooked in traditional mental health systems. Tapping them they can play a vital role in offering care, connection, and wisdom.Dr. Chibanda discusses the barriers to accessing mental health services, the role of storytelling in the healing process, and the global expansion of their research-based program, the Friendship Bench. Grounded in research and lived experience, this conversation invites a rethinking of care—away from over-medicalization and toward more accessible, human-centered approaches. “Every one of us carries a powerful seed that is meant to grow and be shared for the betterment of our community and the world” – Dr. Dixon Chibanda Time Stamps for Indigenous Mental Health, the Friendship Bench with Dr. Dixon Chibanda (271) 02:34 The role of community elders in mental health 05:16 The Friendship Bench: A community-based mental health solution 10:14 The impact of storytelling on healing 13:18 Replication of the friendship bench model globally 18:43 Challenges and obstacles in implementation 32:11 The impact of the friendship bench in urban settings 48:44 Vision for future mental health initiatives About our Guest – Dr. Dixon Chibanda Dixon Chibanda is a leader in the global conversation to democratize mental health care. He is a professor of psychiatry, published researcher, author, advocate, public speaker, and the found of Friendship Bench. He has been featured on the Financial Times, PBS NewsHour Brief But Spectacular episode, Positive News, and has written about his work for The Guardian, LA Times, Project Syndicate and has spoken to audiences at the World Economic Forum, Skoll World Forum, World Health Assembly, the Aspen Ideas Festival, and the TEDWomen conference. As a practising medical doctor, professor of psychiatry & global mental health at the University of Zimbabwe and The London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, Dixon has explored the intersection of indigenous knowledge and western models of care to develop sustainable interventions in global health. His TED talk on why he trains grandmothers to treat depression describes the journey of the Friendship Bench. Over 100 peer-reviewed scientific publications of the program are accessible online. He has been for over a decade a key player in bringing the various stakeholders from local health authorities, health professionals, national and international researchers, and donors together to form successful collaborations. Resources for Where Grandmas & Healing Meet: The Friendship Bench with Dr. Dixon Chibanda (271) The Friendship Bench: How Fourteen Grandmothers Inspired a Mental Health Revolution – Get your copy here! Dixon’s website – Website, resources & information The Friendship Bench – Website, information & resources Friendship Bench Youtube Channel – Videos and other content Enjoy this Episode? Check Out Other Similar Episodes  https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu127-friendship-bench/ Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to Zocdoc.com/TU to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. Ann’s FAVORITE!  Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms! Right now, you can get 20% off plus a FREE starter kit when you shop exclusively Piquelife.com/tu No dyes, no fragrances, no harmful chemicals—just simple, plant- and mineral-based formulas that you can feel good about using in your home. Get 15% off Branch Basics with the code TU at https://branchbasics.com/TU #branchbasicspod

How do we confront racial trauma with courage and real allyship? Image by Psychwire Dr. Monnica Williams teaches Sue Marriott as they explore the deep psychological toll of racism, focusing on the concept of racial trauma and its cumulative impact on people of color. She highlights the importance of recognizing these experiences within therapeutic settings and the need for diversity in mental health research and practice. The discussion delves into the role of civil courage and meaningful allyship—particularly among white individuals in addressing systemic injustice. Dr. Williams offers insights into the multifaceted nature of activism, the harm caused by microaggressions, and the emotional labor involved in navigating everyday racism. From the fear of law enforcement to the unique challenges faced by white women in activism, Dr. Williams urges practitioners and allies alike to listen deeply, receive feedback openly, and use their privilege to support marginalized communities. “…we’ve looked at the different symptoms of racial trauma, and for the most part, it’s pretty hard to tell the difference between that and PTSD… all those same symptoms are present in people who have racial trauma as well.” – Dr. Monnica Williams Time Stamps for What is Real Allyship When it Comes to White Women and Racial Trauma with Dr. Monnica Williams (271) 05:53 Understanding racial trauma 12:04 The role of white privilege in racism 14:58 The intersection of psychedelics and mental health 18:01 Research on racial trauma treatment 24:01 Therapeutic approaches to racial trauma 34:13 Understanding microaggressions in conversations 36:08 Fear and empowerment: The impact of law enforcement 40:50 The role of white allies in advocacy 46:57 The challenges of white women in activism 52:01 Receiving feedback: A guide for allies About our Guest – Dr. Monnica Williams Dr. Monnica T. Williams is a board-certified licensed clinical psychologist and Professor at the University of Ottawa, in the School of Psychology, where she is the Canada Research Chair in Mental Health Disparities. She is also the Clinical Director of the Behavioral Wellness Clinics in Connecticut and Ottawa, where she provides supervision and training to clinicians for empirically-supported treatments. Prior to her move to Canada, Dr. Williams was on the faculty of the University of Pennsylvania Medical School (2007-2011), the University of Louisville in Psychological and Brain Sciences (2011-2016), where she served as the Director of the Center for Mental Health Disparities, and the University of Connecticut (2016-2019) where she had appointments in both Psychological Science and Psychiatry. Dr. Williams research focuses on BIPOC mental health, culture, and psychopathology, and she has published over 200 scientific articles on these topics. Current projects include the treatment of racial trauma, improving cultural competence in the delivery of mental health care services, and addressing structural racism. She gives diversity trainings nationally for academic programs, scientific conferences, and organizations.Through the Kentucky Psychological Association (KPA), Dr. Williams served as the diversity delegate to Washington DC for the American Psychological Association (APA) State Leadership Conference for two consecutive years. She has served as the African American SIG leader for Association of Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies (ABCT), and recently served as Chair of their Academic Training & Education Standards (ATES) Committee. She serves as an Associate Editor of Behavior Therapy and the Behavior Therapist. She also serves on the editorial board of Cognitive Behaviour Therapy, Canadian Psychology, International Journal of Mental Health, the Journal of Obsessive Compulsive and Related Disorders and the Cognitive Behavioural Therapist. She is a member of the Scientific Advisory Board of the International OCD Foundation, and co-founded their Diversity Council. Her work has been featured in all major US and Canadian media outlets, including NPR, CBS, CTV, CBC, Huffington Post, and the New York Times. Resources for What is Real Allyship When it Comes to White Women and Racial Trauma with Dr. Monnica Williams (271) A Clinician’s Guide to Healing the Wounds of Racial Trauma: A 12-Session CBT-Based Protocol – Dr. William’s book Treating Racial Trauma – Dr. William’s online course MonnicaWilliams.com – Website, information & resources If you enjoyed this episode, check out some of our other similar episodes –  https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/navigating-racial-trauma-part-1-203/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/racial-trauma-challenges-traditional-therapy-part-2-sriw-series-ep-3-204-2/ Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to Zocdoc.com/TU to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today. Ann’s FAVORITE!  Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms! Right now, you can get 20% off plus a FREE starter kit when you shop exclusively Piquelife.com/tu

Patreon/Supercast Special Release – Amplify Your Voice: Reflections on Mental Health & Meaningful Practice (270) This is a sneak peek of our exclusive Neuronerd episode with Ann and Sue!  Available only on our Premium Supercast and Patreon platforms. For as little as $5/month you can have access to special releases like this one, first-to-know about upcoming events and discounts and an ad-free feed. Click here to join & finish the episode!! Let’s get real about revitalizing the therapy landscape Ann Kelley and Sue Marriott are back for a one on one episode, and sharing their personal reflections on mental health, community, and the evolving challenges clinicians face today. From the tension between accessibility and sustainability in therapy, to the influence of corporate models – they discuss the need for creativity in the field. Emphasizing connection, curiosity, and professional growth, they introduce exciting opportunities, updates, and even a new series focused on inclusivity – inviting listeners to find and amplify their unique voice in the mental health space. Time Stamps for Bonus – Amplify Your Voice: Reflections on Mental Health & Meaningful Practice (270) 06:06 Challenges in mental health care accessibility 08:47 The impact of corporations on therapy 15:02 Encouraging creativity and individual impact 21:49 Listening to your inner self 27:01 Introducing our new series 31:53 Feedback and future directions Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   NOTE: Next LIVE Q&A coming soon June 13th! Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!

Smartphones are changing how an entire generation grows up Art by “Insights into Things Productions” LLC “Only smartphones and social media can explain why teen depression and loneliness increased internationally after 2010.” Dr. Ann Kelley is joined by Dr. Jean Twenge to discuss her groundbreaking research on generational differences with a focus on how technology—especially smartphones and social media—has transformed communication, relationships, and mental health. They explore how historical shifts and longer life spans contribute to delayed life milestones and what she calls the “slow life strategy.” Dr. Twenge highlights the alarming rise in anxiety and depression among Generation Z, which is closely linked to increased screen time and reduced face-to-face interactions. Together they discuss practical steps parents can take to support healthier development and social connection. “Technology and individualism worked together to form a generation whose needs and wants would change dramatically over their lifetimes but who would always be guided by the idea of placing one’s own views and choices first—a concept that led to both greater acceptance of others and more self-centeredness.” – Dr. Jean Twenge Time Stamps for Smartphones: The Truth About Their Impact on Mental Health with Dr. Jean Twenge (269) 3:03 The slow life strategy and relationship dynamics 5:54 Mental health trends in generation Z 8:55 The role of smartphones and social media 11:59 Understanding the psychological effects of constant connectivity 14:55 Recommendations for parents and policy makers 18:09 What alarm bells are accurate About our Guest – Dr. Jean Twenge Jean M. Twenge, Professor of Psychology at San Diego State University, is the author of more than 180 scientific publications and seven books, including Generations: The Real Differences between Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, Boomers and Silents—and What They Mean for America’s Future and iGen: Why Today’s Super-Connected Kids Are Growing Up Less Rebellious, More Tolerant, Less Happy–and Completely Unprepared for Adulthood. She holds a BA and MA from the University of Chicago and a Ph.D. from the University of Michigan. She writes the Generation Tech substack. Resources for Mental Health in the Age of Screens: Dr. Jean Twenge on Generational Change (269) “Here are 13 other explanations for the adolescent mental health crisis. None of them work.” – Substack by Dr. Jean Twenge Dr. Jean Twenge – Website, information & resources “Generations: The Real Differences Between Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, Boomers, and Silents-and What They Mean for America’s Future” – Book by Dr. Jean Twenge referenced throughout the episode Other Similar Therapist Uncensored Episodes https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/intergenerational-conversation-climate-202/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu50-the-psychology-of-an-entrepreneur-surprising-insights-with-guest-krisztina-z-holly/ Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   NOTE: Next LIVE Q&A coming soon June 13th! Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  No dyes, no fragrances, no harmful chemicals—just simple, plant- and mineral-based formulas that you can feel good about using in your home. Get 15% off Branch Basics with the code TU at https://branchbasics.com/TU #branchbasicspod   Ann’s FAVORITE!  Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms! Right now, you can get 20% off plus a FREE starter kit when you shop exclusively Piquelife.com/tu With added vitamin and minerals, and an upgraded probiotic blend, the new formula is more comprehensive than ever, helping to support immune health, gut health, energy, and more! Check it out at drinkag1.com/TherapistUncensored

“How people approach death is probably as unique as our fingerprint…. and yet the actual dying process is very similar” – Aditi Sethi Dr. Aditi Sethi, the founder of the Center for Conscious Living and Dying, shares her profound journey into the realm of death and dying. She discusses the importance of presence, the healing power of music, and challenges faced in community-based end-of-life care. Alongside Sue Marriott, they explore the profound themes surrounding death and dying, emphasizing the importance of embracing death to enhance life. From concepts like ecstatic dying to the role of psychedelics in alleviating fear of death, Aditi shares insights from her experiences as a death doula. “When I think about the great equalizer that is death – that spares no one – I see our shared humanity in those moments.” – Aditi Sethi Time Stamps for Facing Death, Finding Life: Conscious Dying with Dr. Aditi Sethi (268) 6:06 The role of presence in end-of-life care 18:11 Training volunteers for end-of-life care 25:21 Challenges in community-based care 32:01 Ecstatic dying: Transformative experiences at the end of life 38:03 Conscious dying: Preparing for the inevitable 45:20 The gifts of death: Transformative moments About our Guest – Dr. Aditi Sethi Aditi Sethi, MD, is a hospice and palliative care physician, end-of-life doula, and the Founder and Executive Director of the Center for Conscious Living & Dying. She is dedicated to bridging the sacred and practical aspects of living and dying, offering compassionate, community-supported care that honors the dignity and interconnectedness of all beings. Featured in the forthcoming film The Last Ecstatic Days, Aditi is emerging as an integral voice or transforming our cultural understanding of dying, death, and bereavement care. Her recent TEDx talk in Asheville, NC, titled “The Art of Dying Before You Die”, reflects her passion for inspiring a holistic and sacred approach to the end-of-life journey. Her work is inspired by her Indian heritage, spiritual practices, and love for music as a tool for healing and transformation. Resources for Facing Death, Finding Life: Conscious Dying with Dr. Aditi Sethi (268) The Art of Dying – Aditi Seth’s Ted Talk The Last Ecstatic Days – Documentary featuring Dr. Sethi aditimusic.com – Aditi’s music website and information aditisethimd.com – Aditi’s website and resources Report on the Lancet Commission on the Value of Death: bringing death back into life – Paper recommend by Dr. Sethi Other Relevant TU Episodes https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/embodied-dying-embracing-the-sacred-union-between-life-death-253/ Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   NOTE: Next LIVE Q&A coming soon June 13th! Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  No dyes, no fragrances, no harmful chemicals—just simple, plant- and mineral-based formulas that you can feel good about using in your home. Get 15% off Branch Basics with the code TU at https://branchbasics.com/TU #branchbasicspod   Ann’s FAVORITE!  Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms! Right now, you can get 20% off plus a FREE starter kit when you shop exclusively Piquelife.com/tu With added vitamin and minerals, and an upgraded probiotic blend, the new formula is more comprehensive than ever, helping to support immune health, gut health, energy, and more! Check it out at drinkag1.com/TherapistUncensored

Patreon/Supercast Special Release – The 9 Personality Patterns and the Enneagram with Dr. Dan Siegel (267) This is a sneak peek of our exclusive Neuronerd episode with Dr. Dan Siegel, who shares science of personality as it relates to the Enneagram, and answers the questions, how scientific is the Enneagram?   Available only on our Premium Supercast and Patreon platforms. For as little as $5/month you can have access to special releases like this one, first-to-know about upcoming events and discounts and an ad-free feed. Click here to join & finish the episode!! Alongside co-host Sue Marriott, Dr. Dan Siegel explores how loss, vulnerability, and connection shape personal growth and healing. He discusses the science of attachment and personality, highlighting nine adaptive patterns that emerge from non-secure attachment and how it relates to the Enneagram. The conversation also explores how neuroscience sheds light on emotional needs, alongside Siegel’s personal reflections on his own attachment history and path as a professional. Together they unpack how neuroscience, motivation, and community impact therapy. The episode offers practical insights for clinicians, emphasizing a compassionate, non-shaming approach to mental health and the journey toward secure attachment and the feeling of wholeness. “It’s ultimately a lifelong journey toward wholeness.” – Dr. Dan Siegel  Time Stamps for Bonus – The 9 Personality Patterns and the Enneagram with Dr. Dan Siegel (267) 02:59 The impact of loss on personal growth 05:47 Teaching and vulnerability in professional settings 15:13 Exploring developmental pathways and personality 20:57 Addressing societal challenges through mental health 24:07 The science of personality and attachment 41:56 Non-Secure attachments and personality patterns 46:35 The nine personality patterns 01:14:44 Exploring motivation in therapy 01:17:50 The intersection of neuroscience and personality 01:24:34 Understanding temperament and adaptive strategies 01:27:30 Growth edge work in therapy About our Guest – Dan Siegel, MD Dr. Dan Siegel is the Founder and Director of Education of the Mindsight Institute and founding co-director of the Mindful Awareness Research Center at UCLA, where he was also Co-Principal Investigator of the Center for Culture, Brain and Development and Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at the School of Medicine. An award-winning educator, Dan is the author of five New York Times bestsellers and over fifteen other books which have been translated into over forty languages. As the founding editor of the Norton Professional Series on Interpersonal Neurobiology (“IPNB”), Dan has overseen the publication of one hundred books in the transdisciplinary IPNB framework which focuses on the mind and mental health. A graduate of Harvard Medical School, Dan completed his postgraduate training at UCLA specializing in pediatrics, and adult, adolescent, and child psychiatry. He was trained in attachment research and narrative analysis through a National Institute of Mental Health research training fellowship focusing on how relationships shape our autobiographical ways of making sense of our lives and influence our development across the lifespan. Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   NOTE: Next LIVE Q&A coming soon June 13th! Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!

Food behaviors are deeply connected to self-worth Dr. Vanessa Scaringi and Kathryn Garland talk about the complexities of disordered eating and body image, especially in light of cultural pressures and the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic. They explore the differences between disordered eating and eating disorders, and also discuss how medications like GLP-1 affect eating habits. The conversation touches on how society promotes unhealthy body standards and behaviors, and how our emotional relationship with food is often overlooked. Highlighting the role of attachment styles in shaping eating patterns, they stress the importance of intuitive eating—especially when parenting. Follow along as they offer practical tips for developing a healthier relationship with food and explore therapeutic methods that support recovery. “There is this chaotic experience of food in our culture…sometimes we’re turning to food to cope and then other times we’re saying, ‘no, that’s bad’… It puts us in a disorganized state of constantly cycling through what are my needs and how do I get them met?” – Kathryn Garland Time Stamps for Disordered Eating: Attachment, Intuition & Cultural Influence (268) 06:01 The impact of COVID-19 on eating behaviors 10:13 The role of GLP-1 medications in eating behaviors 14:05 Body image messages and cultural pressures 33:53 Understanding disordered eating vs. normal eating 36:02 Intuitive eating and parenting strategies 45:59 Practical steps for intuitive eating 53:58 Therapeutic approaches to eating disorders Resources for Disordered Eating: Attachment, Intuition & Cultural Influence (268) Academy of Therapy Wisdom – “Hungry for Security: Healing Disordered Eating Through an Attachment Lens” – Vanessa and Kathryn’s new course Calm Counseling – Vanessa and Kathryn’s website, resources & information About our Guests – Vanessa Scaringi, PhD, CEDS-C & Kathryn Garland, LCSW-S, CEDS-C Vanessa Scaringi, PhD, CEDS-C, is a licensed psychologist in Austin, TX. Vanessa co-owns a group therapy practice called, CALM Counseling where she works with adolescents, young adults, and adult populations. Vanessa has dedicated much of her career to working in the eating disorder field. She is a relational psychologist who strives to understand the context of one’s eating disorder. By facilitating insight, Vanessa works with her clients to identify patterns and behaviors that interfere with living the life they want. She strives to instill a sense of hope, as she has found this is an important part of the change process. Vanessa also runs interpersonal process groups where clients can heal in community with others. Kathryn Garland, LCSW-S, CEDS-C is a licensed clinical social worker and supervisor in Texas, New York, and Massachusetts. She is an IAEDP approved Certified Eating Disorder Specialist and Consultant. Kathryn spent her early career and completed postgraduate training in psychoanalytic psychotherapy in New York City. She incorporates relational and attachment-based methods into her work with clients. Her experience includes working with LGBTQ+ teens in the NYC foster care system, community mental health clinics, as well as primary therapist and IOP Program Coordinator at an eating disorder treatment center. Kathryn co-owns CALM Counseling in Austin, Texas with Vanessa. Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!   NOTE: Next LIVE Q&A coming soon June 13th! Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! You are invited!  Join our exclusive community to get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus an ad-free, private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Ann’s FAVORITE!  Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms! Right now, you can get 20% off plus a FREE starter kit when you shop exclusively Piquelife.com/tu ZocDoc  Sue uses this all the time!  Find a provider, their insurance, see patient ratings – all for free! AG1 – Ann and Sue’s daily gut health regimen. Other Related TU Episodes https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/healing-body-focused-repetitive-behavioral-disorders-with-stacy-nakell-189/ Thank you for being on this journey with us!

Humanizing the queer experience is vital in art and media Quentin Arispe joins Sue Marriott as they share their incredible journey of self-discovery. Exploring themes of gender fluidity, the impact of theater on personal growth, and the balance between masculinity and femininity – they discuss the role of grief in creative expression. Their conversation highlights the importance of authenticity and vulnerability in the creative process, as well as the transformative journey of humanizing the queer experience through art. “I think everybody can obtain both their divine masculine and feminine.” – Quentin Arispe Time Stamps for The Fluidity of Gender Identity with Quentin Arispe (265) 05:50 The impact of theater on Quentin’s personal growth 17:47 Understanding divine masculine and feminine 21:45 The dichotomy of performance and authenticity 26:07 The role of grief in creative expression 42:07 Embracing duality in grief and joy 56:00 Exploring identity through music 01:17:05 Humanizing the queer experience About our Guest – Quentin Arispe Quentin Arispe is a versatile musician whose genre-blending sound is both innovative and deeply personal. Quentin explores themes of duality, freedom, and self-expression, challenging societal norms while celebrating authenticity and vulnerability. Featured in Austin Chronicle and performing at venues like The Bitter End in NYC, Quentin has also appeared at festivals such as SXSW and ACL. With influences spanning soul, R&B, indie pop, and pop icons, Quentin continues to leave a lasting mark on music. In 2024, Quentin released “As Above, So Below”, a two-part EP series that transitions from introspective indie rock to house-inspired tracks, exploring grief, healing, and liberation. Resources for The Fluidity of Gender Identity with Quentin Arispe (265) “as above,SO BELOW” – Flim by Quentin Arispe “Genre-Hopping Hustler Quentin Arispe Wants to Be in Every Room” – Article from the Austin Chronicle Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW!  Next LIVEQ&A coming soon! Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s   Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! Interested in joining our exclusive community? Get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus a totally ad-free private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Please support our sponsors for this episode – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms! Right now, you can get 20% off plus a FREE starter kit when you shop exclusively Piquelife.com/tu You’ll get a FREE bottle of AG D3K2, an AG1 Welcome Kit, AND 5 of the upgraded AG1 travel packs with your first order. Check out DrinkAG1.com/therapistuncensored to get started Thank you for being on this journey with us!

Patreon/Supercast Special Release – Disarming the Narcissist: Myths, Truths, & Strategies for Healing with Wendy Behary (264) This is a sneak peek of our episode with Wendy Behary – available only on our Premium Supercast and Patreon platforms. For as little as $5/month you can have access to special releases like this one, first-to-know about upcoming events and discounts and an ad-free feed. Click here to join & finish the episode!! Dr. Ann Kelley and narcissism expert, Wendy Behary, explore the complexities of narcissistic behavior, its development, and the challenges faced by those experiencing relationships with narcissists. Follow along as they dive into the myths, the spectrum of narcissistic traits, and the importance of understanding the underlying insecurities that drive behavior. Behary touches on the cultural implications and how it manifests in society today, as well as practical strategies for individuals to navigate relationships, highlighting the significance of maintaining one’s own mental health and well-being. “Narcissism occurs along a spectrum within the human condition. Embodied in human nature itself is a tendency for narcissistic expression… and that isn’t all bad.” – Wendy Behary About our Guest – Wendy Behary With 30 years of professional experience and advanced level certifications, Wendy Behary is the founder and director of The Cognitive Therapy Center of New Jersey and The Schema Therapy Institutes of NJ-NYC-DC. She has been treating clients, training professionals and supervising psychotherapists for more than 20 years. Wendy was on the faculty of the Cognitive Therapy Center and Schema Therapy Institute of New York (until the Institutes merged in 2012), where she trained and worked with Dr. Jeffrey Young since 1989. She is a founding fellow and consulting supervisor for The Academy of Cognitive Therapy (Aaron T. Beck’s Institute).  Wendy served as the President of the Executive Board of the International Society of Schema Therapy (ISST) from 2010-2014 and served as the Training and Certification Coordinator for the ISST Executive Board from 2008-2010. Wendy Behary has co-authored several chapters and articles on Schema Therapy and Cognitive Therapy. She is the author of an international bestselling book, “Disarming the Narcissist…”  translated in 16 languages. The Third Edition was recently released and was selected by Oprah Daily as one of the top books on the subject of Narcissism.  Wendy has a specialty in treating narcissists and the people who live with and deal with them. As an author and subject matter expert on narcissism, she is a contributing chapter author of several chapters on schema therapy for narcissism for professional readers. She lectures both nationally and internationally to professional and general audiences on schema therapy, narcissism, interpersonal relationships, anger, and dealing with difficult people. She receives consistent high praise for her clear and articulate teaching style and her ability to bring the therapy to life through dramatic demonstrations of client interactions in the treatment room. Her work industry business speaking engagements focus on interpersonal conflict resolution. Her private practice is primarily devoted to treating narcissists, partners/people dealing with them, and couples experiencing relationship problems. Find Upcoming Events here!! Our Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW! Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended course experience for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. Use our link for a discount! Thanks for stopping by & for being on this journey with us!

Neuroception helps us sense danger and safety without cognition In this conversation, Dr. Ann Kelley and Occupational Therapist Kim Barthel explore the conscious evolution of the human spirit, the importance of self-compassion, and the integration of neuroception with therapeutic practices. Through Barthel’s book, ‘Conversations with a Rattlesnake,’ they dive into the significance of sensory integration and attachment in personal development. Using Porges’ “Safe and Sound Protocol”, they touch on how understanding one’s own nervous system and the cues of safety can lead to better emotional regulation and connection with not only oneself, but others. Follow along as they discuss the themes of trauma, healing and the science of connection. “Self-compassion is part of the evolution.” – Kim Barthel Time Stamps for Neuroception and the Safe & Sound Protocol with Kim Barthel (263) 05:32 Conversations with a rattlesnake: A journey through trauma 19:57 Understanding sensory integration and attachment 33:35 Understanding neuroception and safety 34:30 The role of sound in safety cues 42:06 The mechanism of the safe and sound protocol 55:17 The process of connection and regulation About our Guest – Kim Barthel, OTR Kim Barthel is an occupational therapist, speaker, multi-disciplinary teacher, mentor and best-selling author who is active in supporting people in many contexts globally. She is passionate about understanding complex behavior, neurobiology, trauma-sensitive practice, sensory processing, attachment, and mental health. An advanced NDT (Neuro-Developmental Treatment) instructor, Kim has 40+ years of practice in helping people to be their best selves. She is a contributor to a number of textbooks on Pediatric Occupational Therapy, NDT, and Trauma, and in 2019 Kim was honored to receive the Award of Merit from the Canadian Association of Occupational Therapy. Kim’s overall mission is to support the conscious evolution of the human spirit. Resources for Neuroception and the Safe & Sound Protocol with Kim Barthel (263) Conversations with a Rattlesnake: Raw and Honest Reflections on Healing and Trauma – Book by Kim Barthel and Theo Fleury Kim’s website – Resources and information @kimbarthelotr – Kim’s Instagram Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! Interested in joining our exclusive community? Get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus a totally ad-free private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Our Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW! Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s Please support our sponsors for this episode – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms! Right now, you can get 20% off plus a FREE starter kit when you shop exclusively Piquelife.com/tu Find the doctor that is right for you, and book an appointment, in person or remotely, that works for your schedule. Go to Zocdoc.com/TU and download the Zocdoc app for FREE Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended course experience for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. Use our link for a discount! Thank you for being on this journey with us!

*Special Release* – LIVE panel discussion with Dr. Stephen Porges at the Clinical Conversations webinar Ann and Sue share a special conversation with Dr. Stephen Porges where they explore how modern attachment meets Polyvagal theory. From the evolution of attachment theory to understanding bodily states and how they influence our interactions, they dive into the intricate relationships between emotional expression, brain function, and therapeutic techniques. Together they explore the Safe and Sound Protocol and its role in promoting engagement as well as insights into the application of these techniques both professionally and personally. “If you want to improve the world, start by making people feel safer.” – Dr. Stephen Porges Time Stamps for How Modern Attachment Meets Polyvagal Theory 06:53 The evolution of attachment theory 21:07 Broadcasting our states in relationships 28:16 Understanding vocal tone and emotional expression 39:31 The role of safe and sound protocol in therapy 43:52 Accessing regulated states through listening therapies 47:31 Exploring the ventral-vagal connection 50:21 Applications of SSP in mental and physical health About Our Guest – Dr. Stephen W. Porges Stephen W. Porges, Ph.D., is a Distinguished University Scientist at Indiana University and founding director of the Traumatic Stress Research Consortium. A leading researcher in psychophysiology, he has held professorships in psychiatry and neuroscience and has published over 400 peer-reviewed papers. Dr. Porges is best known for developing Polyvagal Theory, which explores the connection between the autonomic nervous system, social behavior, and mental health. He has authored several influential books and created the Safe and Sound Protocol (SSP), a music-based intervention for improving emotional regulation and social engagement. He is also a co-founder and Ex Officio Board Member of the Polyvagal Institute.   Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! Interested in joining our exclusive community? Get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus a totally ad-free private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Our Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW! Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s Please support our sponsors for this episode – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms! Right now, you can get 20% off plus a FREE starter kit when you shop exclusively Piquelife.com/tu Cure is offering 20% off your first order! Stay hydrated and feel your best by visiting curehydration.com/TU and using promo code TU at checkout. Compare high quality, in-network doctors, choose the right one for your needs, and click to instantly book an appointment. Go to ZocDoc.com/TU   Looking for more? Find Upcoming Events here!! Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended course experience for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. Use our link for a discount! Thanks for stopping by & for being on this journey with us!

Patreon/Supercast Special Release – Taking Sexy Back: A Journey to Empowerment with Dr. Alexandra Solomon This is a sneak peek of our episode with Dr. Alexandra Soloman – available only on our Premium Supercast and Patreon platforms. For as little as $5/month you can have access to special releases like this one, first-to-know about upcoming events and discounts and an ad-free feed. Click here to join & finish the episode!! Dr. Ann Kelley and Dr. Alexandra Solomon discuss her book ‘Taking Sexy Back,’ exploring the intersection of gender and sexuality, the impact of societal messages on women’s sexual experiences, and the importance of self-advocacy in relationships. They dive into the complexities of desire, body image, and the influence of patriarchy on both men and women – emphasizing the need for emotional awareness and connection in intimate relationships. Explore the evolving landscape of sexuality across generations and the impact of online dating and pornography on sexual experiences. “We are taught to serve, to focus on others, but we need to notice our own feelings.” – Dr. Alexandra Solomon Time Stamps for Taking Sexy Back: A Journey to Empowerment with Dr. Alexandra Solomon (261) 02:47 The intersection of gender and sexuality 11:52 Impact of body image on desire 14:52 Patriarchy’s influence on men and women 17:55 Emotional complexity in masculinity 28:05 The impact of pornography on sexual experiences 36:45 Embodiment and mindfulness in sexuality 41:50 Exploring pleasure and connection in relationships About our Guest – Dr. Alexandra Solomon Alexandra H. Solomon, PhD, is internationally recognized as one of today’s most trusted voices in the world of relationships, and her framework of Relational Self-Awareness has reached millions of people around the globe. A couple therapist, speaker, author, professor, podcast host, and media personality, Dr. Alexandra is passionate about translating cutting-edge research and clinical wisdom into practical tools people can use to bring awareness, curiosity, and authenticity to their relationships. She is a clinician educator and a frequent contributor to academic journals and research, and she translates her academic and therapeutic experience to the public through her popular and vibrant Instagram page, which has garnered over 200K followers. She is an adjunct professor in the School of Education and Social Policy at Northwestern University and is a licensed clinical psychologist in private practice. Her hit podcast, Reimagining Love, has reached listeners across the globe and features high-profile guests from the worlds of therapy, academia, and pop culture. She is the award-winning author of Taking Sexy Back: How to Own Your Sexuality and Create the Relationships You Want, Loving Bravely: 20 Lessons of Self-Discovery to Help You Get the Love You Want, and Love Every Day: 365 Relational Self-Awareness Practices to Help Your Relationship Heal, Grow, and Thrive. Find Upcoming Events here!! Special Featured event: Ann and Sue are deep diving into clinical application of their work at the Psychotherapy Networker Symposium – March 20-23, 2025. It’s an incredible conference – they’d love to see you there! Rethinking Attachment – Using the Attachment Spectrum in Clinical Practice    Our Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW! Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s   Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended course experience for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. Use our link for a discount! Thanks for stopping by & for being on this journey with us!

Desire is a liberating force Dr. Ann Kelley and Shadeen Francis, LMFT unpack the intricate nature of desire, extending beyond just the sexual realm. They unpack the challenges in identifying true desires, the role of embodiment in self-awareness, and the key distinction between wanting and liking. Together they discuss intimacy, self-discovery and communication – with an emphasis on the need for negotiation and authentic connection in sexual experiences. “The simplest of all luxuries is the freedom to pursue your pleasure.” – Shadeen Francis Time Stamps for Beyond Sex: Understanding Desire 05:15 The challenge of identifying desire 17:58 The nuances of wanting vs. liking 25:01 Desire in sexual contexts 35:07 Negotiating wants in relationships 44:41 The impact of technology on desire 56:30 Desire as a tool for liberation About our Guest – Shadeen Francis, LMFT, CST Shadeen Francis is a licensed marriage and family psychotherapist and a board-certified sex therapist. Her expertise spans the domains of mental health, emotional intelligence, and the intersection of sexual wellness and social justice. A sought-after voice in her field, Shadeen has been featured on major networks including ABC, NBC, and CBS, and has been the subject matter expert for prominent brands such as Essence, Bumble, Tinder, and Teen Vogue. Shadeen’s work extends beyond the therapy room, influencing nationally implemented curricula, global media strategies, and public health policies. Known for her signature brand of warmth and humor, Shadeen’s work is inspired by her commitment to helping people live lives full of peace and pleasure. Resources for Beyond Sex: Understanding Desire shadeenfrancis.com – Shadeen’s website, resources, and other information hello@shadeenfrancis.com – The best way to contact Shadeen @shadeenfrancis – Shadeen’s Instagram handle Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! Interested in joining our exclusive community? Get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus a totally ad-free private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Find Upcoming Events here Featured event: Ann and Sue are deep diving into clinical application of their work at the Psychotherapy Networker Symposium – March 20-23, 2025. It’s an incredible conference – they’d love to see you there! Rethinking Attachment – Using the Attachment Spectrum in Clinical Practice Please support our sponsors for this episode – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms! Right now, you can get 20% off plus a FREE starter kit when you shop exclusively Piquelife.com/tu More goodness for your body and mind – Ancient Nutrition is offering 25% off your first order when you go to AncientNutrition.com/TU Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended course experience for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. Use our link for a discount! Thanks for stopping by & for being on this journey with us!

Sex, gender queerness, and the power of connection … Dr. Emily Nagoski joins co-host Sue Marriott for a deep and insightful conversation about desire, pleasure, and the impact of societal norms on sexuality. Together they explore the evolving landscape of trans rights and healthcare, emphasizing patient-centered care and the urgent need for societal support. Through her journey as a sex educator, Nagoski advocates for deeper understanding and connection, while also sharing practical approaches to educating young people about gender and sexuality, managing stress, and finding meaning and purpose in life. “Talking about sex is my absolute favorite thing.” – Dr. Emily Nagoski Time Stamps for Pleasurable Sex, Gender & Boundaries (259) 01:02 The intersection of sex, boundaries, and burnout 08:04 The importance of pleasure over desire 11:48 Creating a safe and supportive context for pleasure 20:07 Challenging the gender binary 31:50 The evolution of trans rights and healthcare 37:40 Tactical approaches to gender education About our Guest – Dr. Emily Nagoski Emily Nagoski is the award-winning author of the New York Times bestselling Come As You  Are and Come Together, as well as The Come As You Are Workbook, and coauthor, with her  sister, Amelia, of New York Times bestseller Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle.  She earned an M.S. in counseling and a Ph.D. in health behavior, both from Indiana University,  with clinical and research training at the Kinsey Institute. Now she combines sex education and  stress education to teach women to live with confidence and joy inside their bodies. She lives in Massachusetts with two dogs, a cat, and a cartoonist. Resources for Pleasurable Sex, Gender & Boundaries Click here to access her newsletter EmilyNagoski.com – Website, resources and other important information  @ENagoski – Instagram profile Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle – Book by Dr. Emily Nagoski & Amelia Nagoski Feminist Survival Project – Her current podcast with co-host Amelia Nagoski Come As You Are – (Limited Series, 2022) – Podcast   Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! Interested in joining our exclusive community? Get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus a totally ad-free private feed. In addition, receive exclusive episodes recorded just for you. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Find Upcoming Events here Featured event: Ann and Sue are deep diving into clinical application of their work at the Psychotherapy Networker Symposium – March 20-23, 2025. It’s an incredible conference – they’d love to see you there! Rethinking Attachment – Using the Attachment Spectrum in Clinical Practice   Please support our sponsors for this episode – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Want to stay hydrated and feel your best? Cure is offering 20% off your first order! Visit curehydration.com/TU and using promo code TU at checkout.  Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms! Right now, you can get 20% off plus a FREE starter kit when you shop exclusively Piquelife.com/tu Choose the right doctor for your needs – compare high quality, in-network options, and click to instantly book an appointment. Go to ZocDoc.com/TU Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended course experience for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there.  Use our link for a discount! Thanks for listening, friends, & for being on this journey with us!

Patreon/Supercast Special Release – Exploring Disorganized / Unresolved Attachment with Dr. Krista Jordan This is a sneak peek of our episode with Dr. Krista Jordan – available only on our Premium Supercast and Patreon platforms. For as little as $5/month you can have access to special releases like this one, first-to-know about upcoming events and discounts and an ad-free feed. Click here to join & finish the episode!! Dr. Krista Jordan & co-host Sue Marriott LCSW CGP dive into the messy, fascinating world of the 4th attachment category – disorganized attachment. Through intimate personal stories, they describe how it shows up in therapy, relationships, and everyday life. They explore the Adult Attachment Projective (AAP) and Adult Attachment Interview (AAI), unpacking what is sometimes called disorganized, unresolved, dysregulated, dissociated attachment that can ripple through generations. Learn how dismissive strategies work so well they can stop us from growing, why feedback (and a little distress) is crucial for self-awareness, and how shame and anger are often two sides of the same coin. Time Stamps  06:05 Personal experiences with attachment styles and finding our she was “disorganized” 11:59 Exploring dismissive and disorganized strategies 17:58 Therapeutic approaches to unresolved trauma and inner child work 27:08 Dissociation and adaptive strategies in attachment 35:31 The spectrum of unresolved attachment styles 43:09 Shame and anger: A complex relationship 52:42 PACT Therapy: Addressing disorganization in couples About our Guest – Dr. Krista Jordan Dr. Krista Jordan, expert on Disorganized Attachment Dr. Jordan received her PhD in Clinical Psychology from UT Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas in 1996. Her training included children and adults and focused on psychodynamic theory in treatment. She went on to establish a private practice in Austin, Texas in 1998 and has been treating clients through individual and couples therapy for the past 26 years. Dr. Jordan trained with Dr. Stan Tatkin, the originator of the Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy from 2008 until 2022 and is a Certified PACT therapist. Dr. Jordan was also appointed to the Research Faculty at the PACT Institute in 2023 and is the Principle Investigator of the first outcome study being conducted on PACT. She is passionate about treating individuals and couples from an attachment and interpersonal neurobiology approach as well as contributing to research in the field. Throughout her career she has applied these interests in a variety of contexts, including training post-doctoral residents (25 to date!), designing and running outcomes studies for various treatment programs and teaching both high school, undergraduate and graduate students. In 2024 Dr. Jordan became certified to administer the Adult Attachment Projective and continues to train with Dr. Carol George. In her free time Dr. Jordan enjoys hanging out with her husband Russell (of 26 years!) and their two children. She also volunteers with the Blanton Museum and acts as a foster dog mom for Austin Pets Alive. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Find Upcoming Events here Featured event: Ann and Sue are deep diving into clinical application of their work at the Psychotherapy Networker Symposium – March 20-23, 2025. It’s an incredible conference – they’d love to see you there! Rethinking Attachment – Using the Attachment Spectrum in Clinical Practice

Liberation isn’t fixed … it’s fluid We’re kicking off February with a powerful conversation with the incredible Pam Benson Owens. Alongside co-host Sue Marriott, they explore what it means to live with purpose, navigate systemic challenges, and find liberation in everyday choices. Pam shares her wisdom on the role of self-care in activism, the courage it takes to engage in difficult conversations, and how fear shows up in DEI work. This episode dives deep into the intersection of personal and organizational growth, touching on themes of vulnerability, belonging, and the evolving landscape of diversity and identity. Sue and Pam also tackle honest conversations about race and privilege, the “messy middle” of personal transformation, and why pacing yourself is essential for long-term impact. “Liberation is a lot of things… sometimes it is my ability not to raise my voice in anger, some days liberation is saying no. Sometimes liberation is the freedom to realize that I don’t always have to make it my mission to have a deep opinion about something. I have really enjoyed that the idea that liberation isn’t fixed, it’s fluid…” – Pam Benson Owens Time Stamps for The Power of Liberation: Courage, Identity & Growth with Pam Benson Owens (257) 10:03 Engaging with difficult conversations 14:57 The importance of self-care in activism 25:12 The role of fear in DEI work 39:44 Balancing vigilance and connection 50:01 Embracing the messy middle of growth 56:22 Next steps: Pacing and purpose About our Guest – Pamela Benson Owens  Pamela Benson Owens is the President and CEO of Edge of Your Seat Consulting, Inc and retired from the CEO of Six Square in September of 2024. For more years than she cares to admit to, Pam has owned Edge of Your Seat Consulting, a unique consulting firm that is dedicated to assisting for-profit, nonprofit, and faith-based entities. The major focus of Edge of Your Seat Consulting, Inc., is to provide methodologies that help manage perceptions and narratives about complex and challenging issues with courage and strategic passion. She is an advocate and ambassador for healthy organizational cultures and communities. Pam often leverages humor and honest storytelling to create memorable and applicable strategies for sustainable and substantive change. She serves the community in a variety of capacities with the intentional motive of building a stronger and more equitable community. Pam serves on several non-profit boards, is the co-chair of the Black Fund a partnership with Austin Community Foundation, joyfully serves on the faculty of the Center for Nonprofit Excellence at Austin Community College, is often a guest lecturer at institutions of higher learning and thrives on the opportunities her consultancy work paves the way to assist organizations to be stronger by navigating the nuances of organizational culture. She is a proud Texas A&M Aggie where she earned a degree in Journalism and a certification in Diversity Education and completed her graduate work at St. Edwards University with a master’s in Human Services with a concentration in Conflict Resolution/Mediation. Pam has also completed coursework at Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary, holds a certification in DEI from Cornell, is Hogan and Daring Leadership certified, is a self-professed book nerd and lifelong learner, has a new book called The Lessons of Lists, has an online coffee business with all four members of her family called 4TheCultureCoffee, that directs a percentage of the proceeds back to BIPOC nonprofit organizations in the Central Texas region, and you can hear her weekly on her Podcast, Rooted. She resides in Austin with her spouse, Arlyn, and two exceptionally amazing kids, Preston, and Allyson. Resources for The Power of Liberation: Courage, Identity & Growth with Pam Benson Owens (257) PamelaBensonOwens.com – Website, information & resources The Lessons of Lists – book by Pam Benson Owens Pamela Benson Owens: Aligning with Influence – ATX Woman article Find her on Instagram – @pamelabensonowens @edgeofyourseatconsulting & @4theculturecoffee Get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus a totally ad-free private feed.  In addition, recieve exclusive episodes recorded just for you and have input in topics you would like to learn more about. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Find Upcoming Events here Featured event: Ann and Sue are deep diving into clinical application of their work at the Psychotherapy Networker Symposium – March 20-23, 2025. It’s an incredible conference – they’d love to see you there! Rethinking Attachment – Using the Attachment Spectrum in Clinical Practice   Please support our sponsors for this episode – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms! Right now, you can get 20% off plus a FREE starter kit when you shop exclusively Piquelife.com/tu More goodness for your body and mind – Ancient Nutrition is offering 25% off your first order when you go to AncientNutrition.com/TU Our go-to gut health fix! Check out AG1 at AthleticGreens.com/TherapistUncensored Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended course experience for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there.  Use our link for a discount! Thanks for listening, friends, & for being on this journey with us!

Just released!  “The Way of Play” – Book by Dr. Georgie Wisen-Vincent & Dr. Tina Payne Bryson, we recommend you get your copy today!   Could the key to raising resilient, connected kids be as simple as play? Co-host Sue Marriott, with special guests, Tina Payne Bryson and Georgie Wisen-Vincent, discuss the relational neuroscience behind the powerful role of play in child development and its therapeutic benefits. Play fosters emotional resilience, strengthens parent-child attachment, and supports positive neuroplasticity. They bring in positive neuroplasticity, emotional discomfort and tons of very practical techniques. Learn how embracing play can nurture emotional growth and empower both children and parents in meaningful ways. “The oldest evolutionary pathways in the brain are nonverbal. Your actions always speak louder than words when it comes to your child’s mind.” – George Wisen-Vincent Time Stamps for Playful Parenting: Building Resilience, Connection, and Joy Through Play (256) 03:08 The role of play in child development 08:57 Understanding resistance to play 14:50 The science behind play and attachment 21:12 Overcoming barriers to play 24:07 Practical techniques for parents 39:40 The importance of emotional discomfort 41:35 Over-functioning vs. scaffolding 58:31 Positive neuroplasticity through play About our Guests Georgie Wisen-Vincent, LMFT, RPT-S, ECMHS is a nationally recognized play therapy expert and co-author of the new book — THE WAY OF PLAY (Penguin Random House, January 2025). She is the Founder/Director of The Play Strong Institute, a center devoted to the study, research, and practice of play therapy through a neurodevelopment lens, along with Dr. Bryson, the Founder/Executive Director of The Center for Connection, a multidisciplinary clinical practice in Southern California. Georgie is also a child, adolescent, and family psychotherapist and maintains a private practice at The Center for Connection. A graduate professor at Santa Clara University and active researcher in childhood play, attachment science, and mental health, Georgie has been commissioned as a consultant, program designer, and lead trainer for several major organizations and frequently presents to educators, parents, and clinical professionals on play therapy, trauma resilience, and the power of play-driven learning. She completed advanced study in play therapy at the University of Roehampton, London. Georgie gained specialist endorsement in early childhood mental health after completing the UC Davis Napa Infant Mental Health Fellowship. She is currently in the final phase of her doctoral program, a PhD in Infant and Early Child Development, focused on neurodiversity and parent-child attachment relationships. Click here to view her more detailed bio. You may already know Dr. Tina Payne Bryson from her two New York Times Best Sellers The Whole-Brain Child and No-Drama Discipline. They’re both co-authored with Dan Siegel and have been translated into over fifty languages. She and Siegel also wrote The Yes Brain and The Power of Showing Up, and Dr. Bryson is the author of The Bottom Line for Baby. Her new book, co-authored with Georgie Wisen-Vincent, is The Way of Play. Her books have sold over 3 million copies combined. Tina is also the Founder and Executive Director of The Center for Connection, a multidisciplinary mental health practice in Southern California. She keynotes conferences and conducts workshops for parents, educators, and clinicians all over the world. She also consults with schools, businesses, and other organizations, including the Nike Sport Research Lab (NSRL), where she is Project Director for Mental and Emotional Performance. Dr. Bryson earned her Ph.D. from the University of Southern California, where her research explored attachment science, childrearing theory, and the emerging field of interpersonal neurobiology.  The most important part of her bio, she says, is that she’s a mom to her three boys. You can learn more about her at TinaBryson.com.  Resources for Playful Parenting: Building Resilience, Connection, and Joy Through Play (256) PlayStrongInstitute.com – Official website for information and resources Center for Connection – Official website for information and resources Pre-Order the bonus page for their book – Click here! Tina’s Amazon shop page – Click here for books, resources and other tools Click to access Tina Payne Bryson’s Social Channels – Facebook, Instagram, Youtube & Twitter  Georgie’s Instagram handle – @georgiewisenvincent TinaBryson.com – Website for information and resources Click here to subscribe to Tina Payne Bryson’s newsletter How to contact Tina – Email info@tinabryson.com How to contact Georgie – Email Georgie@thecenterforconnection.org Get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus a totally ad-free private feed.  In addition, recieve exclusive episodes recorded just for you and have input in topics you would like to learn more about. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Upcoming Events here Ann and Sue are presenting a clinical deep dive at the Psychotherapy Networker Symposium – March 20-23, 2025. Join us! Rethinking Attachment – Using the Attachment Spectrum in Clinical Practice Please support our Sponsors – they keep the show free and accessible to everyone! Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms! Right now, you can get 20% off plus a FREE starter kit when you shop exclusively Piquelife.com/tu Cure is offering 20% off your first order! Stay hydrated and feel your best by visiting curehydration.com/TU and using promo code TU at checkout.  Compare high quality, in-network doctors, choose the right one for your needs, and click to instantly book an appointment. Go to ZocDoc.com/TU Therapists: THIS is our recommended class for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there.  Use our link or TU for a discount!  Thanks for listening, friends, & for being on this journey with us!

Hello 2025! Join Matthias Barker in kicking off the year exploring family estrangement, AI in therapy & much more… In this episode, hosts Ann and Sue sit down with renowned psychotherapist Matthias Barker, who has built a transformative mental health platform regularly impacting over 11 million souls who learn and consume quality mental health information. The conversation weaves through several important themes: the delicate balance of delivering mental health guidance through social media, the complex terrain of parent-child estrangement in modern families, and the lasting impact of religious trauma. The discussion evolves into an exploration of spirituality in the digital age, including thought-provoking perspectives on artificial intelligence’s role in shaping human consciousness and connection. This nuanced conversation bridges practical psychological insights with broader questions about human connection in an evolving technological landscape. “We inherit more than genetics from our families—we inherit patterns, beliefs, and ways of relating. Healing means choosing which ones to keep and which ones to let go of.” – Matthias Barker Time Stamps for Family Estrangement, Spiritual Harm, & the Ethics of AI in Therapy with Matthias Barker (255) 05:54 Generational perspectives on estrangement 12:10 Understanding emotional dynamics in families 18:12 Spiritual harm and its impact 34:55 The intersection of technology and mental health 45:08 Exploring ethical dilemmas of AI in therapy About our Guest – Matthias Barker  Matthias is a psychotherapist recognized for his expertise in making complex mental health concepts accessible, with a special focus on parent-child estrangement. He is the CEO of the Trauma Institute which provides clinical training for psychotherapists and education for the general public on healing from trauma. Matthias is widely recognized for his unique approach to making mental health knowledge and skills accessible to the wider public. His ability to translate complex topics into relatable everyday language has empowered millions to heal from their past, repair relationships, and take control of their mental well-being. Through platforms like Instagram, TikTok, Facebook and his top-ranking Spotify podcast, Matthias delivers psychoeducational content to a following of over 4 million people. His innovative blend of engaging content and relevant mental health advice has fostered a vibrant online community centered on healing, personal growth, and moving towards what’s meaningful despite hardship. Aside from his online presence, Matthias is an accomplished author and educator. He has self-published several short books and interactive mental health journals, offering a distinctive trauma-informed approach to topics like grief, motivation, burnout, and gratitude. In addition, he has built a diverse library of interactive general public workshops on themes such as anxiety, relational intimacy, and healing from trauma, further establishing his commitment to sharing knowledge and resources for both clinicians and the general public. Resources for Family Estrangement, Spiritual Harm, & the Ethics of AI in Therapy with Matthias Barker (255) Estrangement.com – Sign up here for The Healing Estrangement MatthiasJBarker.com – Matthias’ website, with resources and other information Get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus a totally ad-free private feed.  In addition, recieve exclusive episodes recorded just for you and have input in topics you would like to learn more about. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Find Upcoming Events here Featured event: Ann and Sue are deep diving into clinical application of their work at the Psychotherapy Networker Symposium – March 20-23, 2025. It’s an incredible conference – they’d love to see you there! Rethinking Attachment – Using the Attachment Spectrum in Clinical Practice   Please support our sponsors for this episode – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms!  Listeners get 20% off plus a free starter kit.  Piquelife.com/tu Ancient Nutrition is offering 25% off your first order when you go to AncientNutrition.com/TU Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended class for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there.  Use our link for a discount!  Thanks for listening, friends, & for being on this journey with us!

Farewell 2024, Welcome 2025… As we close out another year, Ann and Sue take time to reflect on 2024 while sharing some exciting opportunities for the year ahead. The Vitality Series is an exciting new endeavor, where they emphasize creating safe spaces for dialogue, navigating tough emotions, and bringing therapeutic concepts into everyday life. With an honest look at shame, vulnerability, and the challenges of personal growth, they explore how connection can empower both individuals and communities. Along the way, they celebrate the milestones of their podcast, emphasize the importance of self-reflection, and highlight the role of supportive networks in fostering meaningful change. “Year’s end is neither an end nor a beginning but a going on, with all the wisdom that experience can instill in us.” — Hal Borland Time Stamps for 2024 Reflections: Growth, Connection & Celebrating Community (254) 00:00 Exciting announcements for 2025 08:00 Reflecting on the past year 32:00 Bridging therapy and everyday life 46:40 The power in mobilizing for change Resources for 2024 Reflections: Growth, Connection & Celebrating Community (254) Brewing Vitality Series, Ann & Sue’s NEW Course – Click here to learn more and reserve your spot!! Psychotherapy Networker Symposium – March 20-23, 2025 Rethinking Attachment – Using the Attachment Spectrum in Clinical Practice Sign up here! Get early access and discounts to things we produce, plus a totally ad-free private feed.  In addition, recieve exclusive episodes recorded just for you and have input in topics you would like to learn more about. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Find Upcoming Events here Featured event: Ann and Sue are deep diving into clinical application of their work at the Psychotherapy Networker Symposium – March 20-23, 2025. It’s an incredible conference – they’d love to see you there! Rethinking Attachment – Using the Attachment Spectrum in Clinical Practice

Explore eco-village living, tantra, and death Lee Warren shares her experience of living in an intentional community and how it opened the door to exploring tantra and the sacredness of death. Alongside co-host Sue Marriott, they explore tantra as a way to connect with the divine within ourselves and others, using tools like breath, sound, and movement to navigate the energy in our bodies. They also discuss death as a sacred process and the importance of preparing for it—both practically and spiritually. Learn how tantra and death preparation share a common goal: helping us embrace the impermanence of life and find joy in the present moment. “The deep practice of tantra helps consciously engage with the inevitability of death.” – Lee Warren Time Stamps 00:00 Exploring Eco-Village Living and Intentional Community 08:23 The Mysteries of Tantra: Cultivating pleasure and sensuality 16:36 Embracing the sacredness of death 21:10 Preparing for death: A journey of self-discovery 31:32 Having hard conversations with family 38:57 Exploring the mystical with psychedelics About Our Guest – Lee Warren, Death & Tantra Educator Lee Warren, founder of Reclaiming Wisdom, helps people embrace life more fully by preparing for death. She sees life and death as inseparable partners, guiding individuals to transform fear into acceptance and empowerment through heartfelt conversations, mindfulness practices, rituals, and personalized care plans. As a mystic, Lee views death as a sacred portal for the soul, and as an embodiment practitioner, she supports the emotional and practical realities of the dying process. Lee believes that contemplating mortality deepens our connection to life, fostering awe, wonder, and a profound sense of purpose. Lee’s mission is to help others achieve clarity and peace about end-of-life wishes while embracing the sacredness of existence and the mystery of the human journey. Resources for Embracing the Sacredness of Death  ReclaimingWisdom.com – Lee Warren’s website & course information “Tilda Swinton Would Like a Word with Trump about His Mother” – NYTimes Article “The Doctor Who Helped Me Understand My Mom’s Choice to Die” – NYTime Article And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Events, Announcements & Resource Links for Secure Relating & the Election Psychotherapy Networker Symposium – March 20-23, 2025 Rethinking Attachment – Using the Attachment Spectrum in Clinical Practice Learn More & Register Here Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended class for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. It just so happens it is also Dennings recommended program as discussed in this. episode!   Use our link for a discount!  Trauma Therapy Directory – Resources for Trauma, PTSD, and Complex PTSD – Created by our friends at the Trauma Therapy Network! Check out our other past and upcoming events here!!  Our Sponsors for this Episode –  Our favorite skin quencher. Get 15% off OneSkin with the code TU at https://www.oneskin.co/  #oneskinpod   Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms!  Listeners get 20% off plus a free starter kit.  Piquelife.com/tu Thanks for listening, friends, & for being on this journey with us!

Transform conflict into connection with ACT Dr. Diana Hill and co-host Dr. Ann Kelley explore the power of process-based therapy to improve relationships and wellbeing. Through various methods like the 6 principles of ACT, the understanding of values, and the family body analogy, they use their personal and professional experience to discuss ways to help resolve conflict and find deeper connection through secure relating. Learn ways to tap into your most deeply connected self to move forward through life’s challenges and nurture healthy relationships. “We don’t battle thoughts. We don’t challenge thoughts. We just let thoughts go, and we can act independently from our thoughts.” – Dr. Diana Hill Time Stamps for ACT 1:06 – What is ACT? 8:52 – Introduction to cognitive diffusion 10:45 – Exploring the transcendent self and family body analogy of ACT 12:09 – The six processes of ACT 20:54 – Utilizing Diana’s daily journal book method 26:53 – Navigating experiential avoidance 33:57 – Moving through acceptance 50:52 – How to learn more about the ACT principles About our Guest – Dr. Diana Hill Diana Hill, PhD, is a clinical psychologist, and co-author of ACT Daily Commitment Therapy Journal: Get unstuck and live full with Acceptance. She is also a co-host of the popular podcast, Psychologists Off the Clock which has over 1 million downloads, where she has interviewed leaders in the field of psychology, mindfulness, and wellness including Dr. Daniel Goleman, Dr. Rich Hanson, The Psychology of Radical Healing Collective, Dr. Daniel Siegel, and Dr. David Sinclair. She is a regular teacher for the Mindful Hearts Program and Insight LA. Through her online teachings, executive coaching, clinical supervision, and private therapy practice Diana encourages clients to build psychological flexibility so that they can live more meaningful and fulfilling lives. Resources for ACT Dr. Diana Hill – Website & resources ACT Daily Journal & Card Deck – Dr. Hill’s daily journal book Psychologists Off the Clock – Dr. Diana Hill’s podcast The Power of Regret by Daniel Pink – Referenced by Diana Hill when discussing values And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Events, Announcements & Resource Links for Secure Relating & the Election Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended class for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. It just so happens it is also Dennings recommended program as discussed in this. episode!   Use our link for a discount!  Trauma Therapy Directory – Resources for Trauma, PTSD, and Complex PTSD – Created by our friends at the Trauma Therapy Network! Check out our other past and upcoming events here!!  Our Sponsors for this Episode –  Go to ZocDoc.com/TU Compare high quality, in-network doctors, choose the right one for your needs, and click to instantly book an appointment. Become the best version of yourself and get 15% off Ned products with code TU.   Our favorite skin quencher. Get 15% off OneSkin with the code TU at https://www.oneskin.co/  #oneskinpod Thanks for listening, friends, & for being on this journey with us!

Let’s talk about all things AEDP Sue Marriott and Diana Fosha explore the key principles of Accelerated Experiential Dynamic Psychotherapy (AEDP) and its transformative impact on the field. AEDP begins with the premise of “healing from the get-go,” and fostering change from the first session. It emphasizes “undoing aloneness” by building a supportive therapeutic relationship, while encouraging clients to engage deeply with emotions. Join us as we highlight techniques like metatherapeutic processing, where clients reflect on their healing experience, and integrating neuroscience into clinical practice. “The basic quality of emergent experience is a surrender to the experience of flow, of being in the zone.” – Dr. Diana Fosha Looking for extra community and connection post-election? Join us for our second free, live virtual holding circle on Friday, November 22nd at 3 PM CST – Click here to learn more  Time Stamps for AEDP 02:55 The importance of healing from the get-go 06:06 Understanding “Undoing aloneness” 28:34 Dropping down into the body and connecting with emotions 33:28 Explanation and application of Metatherapeutic processing 35:28 Creating a safe and transformative relationship with clients 51:20 The societal impact of AEDP About our Guest – Dr. Diana Fosha  Diana Fosha PhD is the developer of AEDPTM, a healing-oriented, radically relational experiential psychotherapy to transform trauma, heal attachment wounds and help people connect to their vitality. She is Founder and Director of the AEDP Institute. Her “heightened sensitivity to the promises of life” recognized, she has been also described as having “an extraordinary gift for hope.” For the last 20 years, Diana has been active in promoting a scientific basis for a healing-oriented, attachment-emotion- and transformation-focused trauma treatment model. Fosha’s work focuses on integrating neuroplasticity, recognition science and developmental dyadic research into experiential and transformational clinical work with patients. Her most recent work, Undoing aloneness and the transformation of suffering into flourishing: AEDP 2.0, (APA, 2021), focuses on flourishing as a seamless part of the process of transforming emotional suffering.  She is the author of The transforming power of affect: A model for accelerated change (Basic Books, 2000); co-author, with Natasha Prenn, of Supervision essentials for Accelerated Experiential Dynamic Psychotherapy (APA, 2016); 1st editor, with Daniel Siegel and Marion Solomon, of The healing power of emotion: Affective neuroscience, development & clinical practice (Norton, 2009), and editor of the soon to be released AEDP 2.0: Four DVDs of her live AEDP clinical work, including one documenting a complete 6-session treatment, and one on clinical supervision have been issued by the American Psychological Association (APA). Described by psychoanalyst James Grotstein as a “prizefighter of intimacy,” and by David Malan as “the Winnicott of [accelerated experiential] psychotherapy,” Diana Fosha’s writing style is powerful and precise, yet poetic and evocative. Her phrases —“undoing aloneness,” “existing in the heart and mind of the other,” “rigor without shame” and “True Other”  — capture the ethos of AEDP.  Resources for AEDP www.aedpinstitute.org  – View some of Dr. Fosha’s papers here  Metatherapeutic Processing Supports the Emergence of Flourishing in Psychotherapy – by Dr. Diana Fosha How to be a Transformational Therapist – by Dr. Diana Fosha Speculations on Emergence: Working the Edge of Transformational Experience and Neuroplasticity – by Dr. Diana Fosha Healing Attachment Trauma with Attachment (& then some!) – by Dr. Diana Fosha Click here to learn more!!           And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Events, Announcements & Resource Links for Secure Relating & the Election Psychotherapy Networker Symposium – March 20-23, 2025 Rethinking Attachment – Using the Attachment Spectrum in Clinical Practice Learn More & Register Here Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended class for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. It just so happens it is also Dennings recommended program as discussed in this. episode!   Use our link for a discount!  Trauma Therapy Directory – Resources for Trauma, PTSD, and Complex PTSD – Created by our friends at the Trauma Therapy Network! Check out our other past and upcoming events here!!  Our Sponsors for this Episode –  Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms!  Listeners get 20% off plus a free starter kit.  Piquelife.com/tu Our favorite skin quencher.  Use the code TU when you checkout at oneskin.co Thanks for listening, friends, & for being on this journey with us!

Many are baffled by the so strong feelings around the 2024 election results – let us help you get it. Families are dividing, couples are blowing up and neighbors are being cut off.  When you are close to someone who didn’t vote with you this year, you are likley in some distress. The shock and pain for some groups after the election and the corresponding lack of understanding is a recipe for dysregulation. We explore the complexities of political identity, emotional responses, and the impact of political discourse on all of our personal relationships in the wake of a divisive presidential election. Ann and Sue, alongside Michael Hilgers, LPC, emphasize the need for deeper conversations that transcend binary thinking and the significance of co-regulation in healing and fostering unity amidst division. They explore the challenges of navigating relationships where political views differ, emphasizing the value of patience, compassion, and open curiosity to foster understanding. The conversation touches on the risks of lasting family divides and underscores the importance of creating safe, respectful spaces for meaningful conversations. Ultimately, it encourages empathy and small, thoughtful steps toward more compassionate communication. “We all play a role in this democracy. We need to remember the power of every vote. I continue, too, to keep myself connected to a force that’s larger and more potent than any one election, or leader, or news story—and that’s optimism. For me, this is a form of faith, an antidote to fear.” – Michelle Obama Looking for extra community and connection post-election? Join us for our second free, live virtual holding circle on Friday, November 22nd at 3 PM CST – Click here to learn more  Time Stamps for Aftermath of the Election 00:00 Navigating identity 02:52 The aftermath of the 2024 Presidential election based on gender 06:09 Understanding huge emotional responses for those who care 08:56 The difficulty of empathy and connection when stakes are high 15:01 Co-regulation 17:54 The role of historical trauma in reactions to current events 20:56 Is common ground possible? 25:32 Betrayal 27:09 Listening and holding space rather than fixing it 29:31 Patience in difficult conversations 30:35 Political divides in relationships 32:00 The risk of permanent divisions 39:18 Concrete steps for compassionate communication 42:08 Addressing name-calling and intentional humiliation About our Guest – Michael Hilgers, LPC Michael Hilgers, LPC is a licensed Professional Counselor who maintains an online Counseling Practice specializing in work with Creatives and Entrepreneurs. After almost 25 years in Austin, Tx, he moved to the mountains of Northern New Mexico where he works with clients from around the globe.     Check out the most anticipated conference for Experiential Dynamic Therapists!! San Diego, CA – November 13th-15th –  IEDTA’s 2024 conference highlights the power of the therapeutic alliance in psychotherapy. Register here!    And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Events, Announcements & Resource Links for Secure Relating & the Election Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended class for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. It just so happens it is also Dennings recommended program as discussed in this. episode!   Use our link for a discount!  Trauma Therapy Directory – Resources for Trauma, PTSD, and Complex PTSD – Created by our friends at the Trauma Therapy Network! Check out our other past and upcoming events here!!  Thanks for listening, friends, & for being on this journey with us!

The election tension can be divisive – but we don’t have to be The political events in the United States have been a major contributor to our anxieties these past years, and with our significant presidential election looming over us this week – Ann and Sue are here to talk about the hard things. While the world feels unpredictable on the outside, one thing we can do is focus on the intricate relationship between our nervous systems and the emotional responses triggered by political events. They discuss how fear and anxiety are often manipulated through political rhetoric, leading to division and polarization, the importance of understanding how personal relationships amidst these tensions are emphasized, and the need for secure relating and accountability from leaders. There is power in recognizing the complexity of political opinions and the necessity of maintaining open dialogue to foster connection rather than division. Join us as we explore how to navigate differences, the importance of empathy and community, and the need for resilience during uncertain times. “We are resilient beings and we will get through this.” Time Stamps for Secure Relating & the Election 00:00 Understanding the Nervous System’s Role in Fear 03:00 The Impact of Political Rhetoric on Our Emotions 05:56 Navigating Personal Relationships Amidst Political Divisions 09:06 The Complexity of Political Opinions 11:57 The Importance of Secure Relating in Divided Times 14:52 Holding Leaders Accountable in a Polarized Environment 25:49 The Importance of Secure Relating 30:02 Navigating Division and Conflict 36:32 Finding Resilience in Uncertain Times 41:20 Empathy and Community in Crisis 46:36 Promoting Secure Relating for a Better Future Resources for Secure Relating & the Election A Started Guide for Surviving Election Season” – Important reminders from Oh Happy Dani, the Everyday Advocate Vote.org – Nonpartisan tool for voting logistics and information “8 Questions that can help you survive election stress” – Helpful resource from UC Berkeley’s Greater Good Magazine Somatic Techniques for Stress & Anxiety – Somatic practices from Brooklyn Somatic Therapy Check out the most anticipated conference for Experiential Dynamic Therapists!! San Diego, CA – November 13th-15th –  IEDTA’s 2024 conference highlights the power of the therapeutic alliance in psychotherapy. Register here!    And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Events, Announcements & Resource Links for Secure Relating & the Election Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended class for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. It just so happens it is also Dennings recommended program as discussed in this. episode!   Use our link for a discount!  Trauma Therapy Directory – Resources for Trauma, PTSD, and Complex PTSD – Created by our friends at the Trauma Therapy Network! Check out our other past and upcoming events here!!  Support this library of content at TU staying FREE and TOTALLY ACCESSIBLE by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode –  Go to ZocDoc.com/TU Compare high quality, in-network doctors, choose the right one for your needs, and click to instantly book an appointment.     Become the best version of yourself and get 15% off Ned products with code TU. Thanks for listening, friends, & for being on this journey with us!

Our first ever LIVE podcast recording Alongside Pam Benson Owens, Ann and Sue explore a variety of topics with a live audience at the KUYA Wellness center in Austin, TX. Referencing their book, Secure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World, they delve into the neuroscience behind relationships, discussing attachment styles and emotional regulation, and emphasize the importance of creating safe spaces for dialogue. They highlight the significance of understanding generational trauma and the complexities of navigating relationships in a diverse society. Through personal stories and insightful discussions, they shine a light on the power of self-awareness, encouraging listeners to explore their own emotional landscapes with compassion and curiosity. Learn how creating safe spaces for open dialogue can deepen connections, while understanding the role of pauses and curiosity in everyday conversations. “The power of the pause is essential.” – Pam Benson Owens  Time Stamps for KUYA 07:05 Understanding Neuroscience in Relationships 20:28 Navigating Emotional States and Attachment 30:00 Creating Safe Spaces in Conversations 34:51 Navigating Activation and Agency 39:41 The Role of Shame in Learning 44:14 The Power of the Pause and Curiosity 49:36 Strategic Communication in Relationships 54:43 Repression vs. Calibration of Emotions 01:00:17 Cultural Norms and DEI Conversations 01:03:05 Boundaries in Relationships 01:05:20 Generational Trauma and Cultural Clashes About our Guest – Pam Benson Owens, President & CEO Pamela Benson Owens is the President and CEO of Edge of Your Seat Consulting, Inc and is also serving as the CEO of Six Square. For 25+ years Pam has owned Edge of Your Seat Consulting, a unique consulting firm that is dedicated to assisting for-profit, nonprofit, and faith-based entities. The major focus of Edge of Your Seat Consulting, Inc., is to provide methodologies that help manage perceptions and narratives about complex and challenging issues with courage and strategic passion. Pam leverages humor and honest storytelling to create memorable and applicable strategies for sustainable and substantive change. Pam serves on several non-profit boards, is the co-chair of the Black Fund a partnership with Austin Community Foundation, joyfully serves on the faculty of the Center for Nonprofit Excellence at Austin Community College, is often a guest lecturer at institutions of higher learning and thrives on the opportunities her consultancy work paves the way to assist organizations to be stronger by navigating the nuances of organizational culture. Resources for KUYA Click here to view Pam’s website – Edge of Your Seat Consulting KUYA  – Mental Health & Wellness Center in Austin, TX & host of our recording Practices – Register now for the Holistic Attachment Summit!! – This summit will explore the most essential ideas in attachment theory, research, and how they can be applied to create deep and lasting healing for clients — enabling you to be at the forefront of evidence-based care. Click here to register!!   Check out the most anticipated conference for Experiential Dynamic Therapists!! San Diego, CA – November 13th-15th –  IEDTA’s 2024 conference highlights the power of the therapeutic alliance in psychotherapy. Register here!    And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Events, Announcements & Resource Links  Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended class for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. It just so happens it is also Dennings recommended program as discussed in this. episode!   Use our link for a discount!  Trauma Therapy Directory – Resources for Trauma, PTSD, and Complex PTSD – Created by our friends at the Trauma Therapy Network! Check out our other past and upcoming events here!!  Support this library of content at TU staying FREE and TOTALLY ACCESSIBLE by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode –  Our favorite skin quencher.  Use the code TU when you checkout at oneskin.co   Thanks for listening, friends, & for being on this journey with us!

Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) in adults  James Ochoa and co-host Sue Marriott explore the different subtypes of ADHD, and the impact on adults who are navigating a diagnosis later in life. As an ADHD expert, Ochoa shares insights on the emotional and mental stress that accompanies ADHD, as well as provides different techniques for managing symptoms. With an emphasis on the importance of self-care, communication, and personalized strategies, he provides resources and training for adults with ADHD, professionals who work with ADHD clients, and family members of individuals with ADHD. “…It feels like their attachment to themselves has always seemed off, and when they receive an accurate diagnosis then suddenly there’s these lights that turn on…” – James Ochoa Time Stamps for New Frontiers of Adult ADHD 02:05 Stumbling Upon an Adult ADHD Diagnosis 04:40 Understanding the Subtypes of ADHD 08:06 Resourcing and Self-Care for ADHD 10:04 Managing ADHD Symptoms: Breathing Exercises and Micro-Meditations 15:32 Interrupting Over-activation and Panic in ADHD 26:55 Managing ADHD: Strategies and Self-Care 31:17 Supporting Loved Ones with ADHD 35:37 Educating Professionals on ADHD 43:49 Resources and Training for ADHD About our Guest – James Ochoa  For over thirty years, James Ochoa, LPC, has combined counseling, coaching, mentoring, and intuition to help adults with ADHD overcome challenges, pursue passions, and live meaningful lives. Most of his clients seek help beyond ADHD organization and time-management strategies. As valuable as those skills can be, James’ key concepts involve working with his clients’ imagination, life history and inner resources. His insight-and-action-based counseling style has helped clients from all walks of life, including executives, indie film producers, college students, religious leaders and beyond. He welcomes individuals, couples, and family members, whether from Austin, Texas, or points beyond. James is also working on his second book, When the Shiny Wears Off, Navigating the Lifetime Storms of Adult ADHD, which focuses on how to handle the chronic stress of ADHD that never completely stops wreaking havoc. The book will offer ample strategies to help mitigate the impact this disruption has on relationships, career, self-care, and mental health. Resources for New Frontiers of Adult ADHD Living Well With ADHD – 10/19 live, in-person training in Austin, TX – This is a great resource for ADHD awareness month that is happening the entire month of October! (Use code TU30OFF for 30% off) JamesOchoa.com – James’s Website Focused Forward – James’s Book ADHD Town Hall – Webinar Series Storm Team – 12 -Topic ADHD series Professional Trailblazing – Training for Professionals Focused Forward – James Ochoa’s Book – Get your copy here!! And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Events, Announcements & Resource Links  Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended class for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. It just so happens it is also Dennings recommended program as discussed in this. episode!   Use our link for a discount!  Mind, Body, Social, & Spiritual Approaches for Healing Attachment: 30 World-Leading Pioneers Share Their Best Practices – Register now for the Holistic Attachment Summit!! – This summit will explore the most essential ideas in attachment theory, research, and how they can be applied to create deep and lasting healing for clients — enabling you to be at the forefront of evidence-based care. Click here to register!! Trauma Therapy Directory – Resources for Trauma, PTSD, and Complex PTSD – Created by our friends at the Trauma Therapy Network! Check out our other past and upcoming events here!!  Support this library of content at TU staying FREE and TOTALLY ACCESSIBLE by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode –  Go to ZocDoc.com/TU Compare high quality, in-network doctors, choose the right one for your needs, and click to instantly book an appointment.     Become the best version of yourself and get 15% off Ned products with code TU. Thanks for listening, friends, & for being on this journey with us!

Exploring the science behind the complex acronyms Sue Marriott and Ann Kelley discuss Experiential Dynamic Therapies (EDTs) with experts Margaret Martin and Dr. Deb Pollack. These therapies focus on recognizing and challenging defenses that lead to problems both internally and relationally. Learn the difference between defenses that feel right (Egosyntonic) and those that don’t (Egodystonic) and why it’s important to work against them for change. This episode is a dive into the role of EDTS in individual therapy, and highlights the need for an integrated approach to address underlying trauma, plus much more! “Turning against defenses is key to creating change.” – Dr. Deborah Pollack Time Stamps for Challenging Defenses: An Introduction to Experiential Dynamic Therapies (EDTS) 00:00 Introduction to Experiential Dynamic Therapies 04:07 Understanding Defenses and Creating Change 08:19 Turning Against Defenses 13:49 Building Capacity and Accessing Core Feelings 20:05 Working with Resistance and Anxiety 23:49 Exploring Different Models within EDTs 29:22 Understanding and Working with Defenses 36:14 Building Capacity and Regulating Emotions 39:05 Challenging Defenses and Facilitating Character Change 45:04 Integrating Modalities for Comprehensive Healing 48:31 The Role of the Therapist in Addressing Defenses 54:49 Compassionate and Supportive Therapeutic Relationships About our Guests – Dr. Deborah Pollack & Margaret Martin, LCSW Dr. Deborah Pollack is an Associate Professor of Psychology at Utica University and a clinical psychologist in private practice near Syracuse, New York. She also has faculty appointments at SUNY Upstate Medical University and Syracuse University, where she teaches and supervises doctoral students in psychology. Dr. Pollack is active on the board of the International Experiential Dynamic Therapy Association (IEDTA), serving as recording secretary and on several standing committees. She is the President-elect of the Central New York Psychological Association. Dr. Pollack is a qualitative researcher and most recently has investigated the application of EDT-informed therapy for mothers with postpartum mood and anxiety disorders. She has been studying the EDTs since 2009 and is certified as a Teacher and Supervisor through the IEDTA. She is currently running a core training in ISTDP and she also offers individual supervision in ISTDP for licensed or license-eligible therapists. In her free time, Deb enjoys traveling, sewing, and hiking, especially in the Adirondack mountains where she is working on hiking all 46 high peaks. Margaret Martin, LCSW is an individual and couple therapist practicing in Austin, Texas, where she specializes in complex trauma. She began training with Stan Tatkin, developer of the PACT model, in 2012. She now coaches PACT level one and two students and provides training for the PACT Institute, and hosts a monthly online discussion group for PACT and PACT-curious therapists. In 2022 Margaret completed the PACT Institute’s inaugural invitation-only certification program and is one of 25 therapists worldwide to receive the designation of PACT-certified therapist. In 2019 she began training in ISTDP and developed a passion for incorporating aspects of ISTDP into her work with couples. With colleague Kathryn Barksdale, Margaret co-developed Trauma Wise Therapy, a framework for working with high-trauma couples. Margaret active on the board of the International Experiential Dynamic Therapy Association (IEDTA) and chairs the IEDTA Diversity Committee. A self-described training junkie, she also trained in Somatic Experiencing, Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing, Emotional Transformation Therapy, Brainspotting, and Accelerated Resolution Therapy. She is slightly fanatic about trauma-informed care, deliberate practice for therapists, cats, and fiber arts of any kind. Resources for this Episode – Challenging Defenses: An Introduction to Experiential Dynamic Therapies (EDTS) Margaret Martin, LCSW – Margaret Martin’s website Deborah Pollack, PhD – Dr. Deborah Pollack’s website Check out the most anticipated conference for Experiential Dynamic Therapists!! San Diego, CA – November 13th-15th –  IEDTA’s 2024 conference highlights the power of the therapeutic alliance in psychotherapy. Register here!  IEDTA Certified Training –  Info on training in Experiential Dynamic Therapies Application to join the EDT List Additional resources on ISTDP and Experiential Dynamic Therapies Intensive Short Term Dynamic Psychotherapy by Patricia Coughlin – Recommended by Margaret Martin Reaching Through Resistance by Allan Abbass – Recommended by Margaret Martin Intensive Short-Term Dynamic Psychotherapy: A Reference by Nat Kuhn MD – Recommended by Margaret Martin Treating Affect Phobia: A Manual for Short-Term Dynamic Psychotherapy by Leigh McCullough, et al – Recommended by Margaret Martin Healing through Relating: A Skill-Building Book for Therapists by Jon Frederickson – Recommended by Margaret Martin Changing Character: Short-term Anxiety-regulating Psychotherapy For Restructuring Defenses, Affects, And Attachment by Leigh Mccullough Vaillant – Recommended by Margaret Martin Mastering Intensive Short-Term Dynamic Psychotherapy: A Roadmap to the Unconscious by Josette ten Have-de Labije and Robert J. Neborsky – Recommended by Margaret Martin The Lies We Tell Ourselves by Jon Frederickson – Recommended by Margaret Martin The Transforming Power Of Affect: A Model For Accelerated Change by Diana Fosha – Recommended by Margaret Martin A Therapist’s Handbook to Dissolve Shame and Defense and Master the Moment by Susan Warren Warshow – Recommended by Margaret Martin Hidden From View: A clinician’s guide to psychophysiologic disorders by Allan Abbass – Recommended by Margaret Martin https://istdpinstitute.com/resources/intensive-short-term-dynamic-psychotherapy-an-introduction/ And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE please please leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Events, Announcements & Resource Links  Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended class for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. It just so happens it is also Dennings recommended program as discussed in this. episode!   Use our link for a discount!  Mind, Body, Social, & Spiritual Approaches for Healing Attachment: 30 World-Leading Pioneers Share Their Best Practices – Register now for the Holistic Attachment Summit!! – This summit will explore the most essential ideas in attachment theory, research, and how they can be applied to create deep and lasting healing for clients — enabling you to be at the forefront of evidence-based care. Click here to register!! Trauma Therapy Directory – Resources for Trauma, PTSD, and Complex PTSD – Created by our friends at the Trauma Therapy Network! Check out our other past and upcoming events here!!  Support this library of content at TU staying FREE and TOTALLY ACCESSIBLE by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode –  Our favorite skin quencher.  Use the code TU when you checkout at oneskin.co Become the best version of yourself and get 15% off Ned products with code TU. Thanks for listening, friends, & for being on this journey with us!

Centering voices and perspectives of marginalized couples is crucial in therapy Co-host Sue Marriott and Akilah Riley Richardson dive into a wide-ranging discussion about the vital need to center marginalized voices of clients – and therapists. They explore how Western perspectives have shaped therapy practices globally, often overlooking diverse cultural approaches. Akilah brings a fresh, challenging perspective to the table. She pushes for a real shake-up in how we approach therapy, especially when working with marginalized couples. It’s not just about tweaking existing methods – she’s calling for a fundamental rethinking of our assumptions. The conversation tackles some heavy topics, from unpacking the concept of relational privilege to developing strategies that help couples see beyond their individual struggles to the bigger picture of systemic trauma. What really stands out is their focus on the deep impact of systemic trauma. They don’t just acknowledge it – they dig into why it’s so crucial for therapists to truly understand and address it in their work. Ultimately, this discussion isn’t just academic. It’s a call to action for therapists to step up, broaden their perspectives, and find new ways to help couples break free from systemic constraints. It’s about empowering relationships and, in the process, maybe changing the face of therapy itself. “Our ways of understanding healing are not always in the traditionally confined space of therapy. Dance is healing, drumming is healing, movement is healing…” – Akilah Riley-Richardson Time Stamps for Liberating Marginalized Couples from Systemic Trauma 00:00 Introduction and Akilah’s background 02:15 The influence of the global north on therapy practices in the global south 06:24 Understanding relational privilege in marginalized couples 28:36 The impact of systemic trauma on marginalized couples 30:50 The theater of oppression: Mapping themes onto relationships 36:51 Learning about relationships through systemic trauma 40:59 Challenging the therapy profession 46:13 The bubble of psychotherapy 48:43 Redefining and reclaiming narratives of survival 53:28 The urgency of addressing systemic trauma 56:16 Challenging the profession and implementing systemic change 59:04 Taking action and being part of the work About our Guest – Akilah Riley-Richardson MSW, CCTP Akilah Riley-Richardson is a Certified Clinical Trauma Professional, a Facilitator and Trainer, as well as a Couples Therapist, certified in the STAIR Method. She has received training in various areas including Somatic Experiencing, Brainspotting, Playback Theatre, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, Neuroscience, Emotionally Focused Therapy, Relational Life Therapy, Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy, Compassion Focused Therapy, and Internal Family Systems Therapy. She is the founder of the  Relational Healing Institute, which is dedicated to the healing of relationships, especially those of marginalized people, and is also the creator of the P.R.I.D.E model which is an approach that is useful when working with clients and in clinical supervision. P.R.I.D.E stands for Pivot, Rumble, Imagine, Develop and Evolve. Resources for this Episode – Liberating Marginalized Couples from Systemic Trauma Akilah Riley-Richardson’s Website – Information & Resources Indigenous Social Work Around the World by Towards Culturally Relevant Education and Practice by John Coates & Mel Grey – Book referenced by Akilah Riley-Richardson And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE please please leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Related episodes: Navigating Racial Trauma and identity with Debra Chapman-Finley and Gliceria Perez part 1: TU203 AND Part 2: TU204 In each other’s Care Building and Sustaining Healthy Relationships with Stan Tatkin TU TU112 Mind Body Heart Spirit Embodying Liberation Psychology with Dr. Shena YoungTU230 Couples Therapy with Ellyn Bader and Peter Pearson TU 140 Events, Announcements & Resource Links  Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended class for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. It just so happens it is also Dennings recommended program as discussed in this. episode!   Use our link for a discount!  Mind, Body, Social, & Spiritual Approaches for Healing Attachment: 30 World-Leading Pioneers Share Their Best Practices – Register now for the Holistic Attachment Summit!! – This summit will explore the most essential ideas in attachment theory, research, and how they can be applied to create deep and lasting healing for clients — enabling you to be at the forefront of evidence-based care. Click here to register!! Trauma Therapy Directory – Resources for Trauma, PTSD, and Complex PTSD – Created by our friends at the Trauma Therapy Network! Austin Women’s professional development summit – it’s a huge networking event 9/13/24!  Get your tickets now! Support this library of content at TU staying FREE and TOTALLY ACCESSIBLE by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode –  ARMRA Colostrum is a proprietary concentrate of bovine colostrum that harnesses over 400 living, bioactive nutrients that strengthen the barriers of your body and fuel cellular health for thousands of research-backed health benefits. Go to ARMRA.com and use code TU at checkout!   Go to ZocDoc.com/TU Compare high quality, in-network doctors, choose the right one for your needs, and click to instantly book an appointment. Purity Woods is on a mission is to provide people with the cleanest, most effective, and healthy products available – formulated by skin care chemists at the top of their field.  Go to puritywoods.com/TU or enter code TU at checkout Thanks for listening, friends, & for being on this journey with us!

Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy – the good, the questionable and what to worry about Pychedelic assisted therapy Nigel Denning is a pioneer in the field of training and research around the therapeutic use of medicines, and as an Australian, has seen what happens when psychedelics become legalized.  He and co-host Sue Marriott discuss the state of psychedelic-assisted therapy as it ‘officially’ emerges in the United States.  They discuss the efficacy of psychedelics such as MDMA and psilocybin as well as concerns about how these medicines are implemented and by whom. The need for structured treatment that supports integration with a solid theory of mind is emphasized. Denning shares how the substances offer new opportunities for those who have not had success with traditional treatments, as well as addresses the concerns and skepticism around the science. Through their emphasis on the importance of proper setting, preparation, and integration he also highlights the importance of collaboration and community in the future of psychedelic therapy. Integrative Attachment Therapy was recommended as a sound training model to support those training in psychedelic integration. “Psychedelics can help create the conditions for new opportunity” – Nigel Denning Time Stamps for Unlocking the Potential of Psychedelics 04:37 The State of Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy in Australia 13:46 Addressing Criticism and Skepticism: The Need for Scientific Explanation 21:58 Understanding the Effects of MDMA on the Brain 26:41 Understanding the Effects of Psilocybin on the Brain 29:31 The Importance of Set and Setting, Preparation, and Integration 32:41 Integration in Psychedelic Therapy 36:35 Concerns about Commercialization and Lack of Regulation 44:54 Training and Collaboration in Psychedelic Therapy 49:22 Psychotherapy as a Catalyst for Transformation and Resilience About our Guest – Nigel Denning – Unlocking the Potential of Therapeutic Psychedelics Nigel Denning is a counseling psychologist who runs Integrative Psychology in Melbourne, Australia. He earned a Masters degree in English literature before entering Psychology. Denning developed a national training psychedelic-assisted therapy for Mind Medicine Australia, which is described by Professor David Nutt as “the world’s best.” Denning is a clinical lead in three psychedelic trials and has developed an attachment training program with David Elliott. He also mediated a healing process with two large Catholic colleges with histories of employing pedophiles, as well as worked on the George Pell prosecution. Denning has worked in institutional abuse and was instrumental in dismantling a Hindu sex cult. He has lectured a many universities and ran professional training for the College of Counseling psychologists, and trains in Tibetan Bon DzogChen following his mentor, Daniel P. Brown. Resources for Unlocking the Potential of Therapeutic Psychedelics Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information Therapists: THIS is our recommended class for the most comprehensive training on attachment out there. It just so happens it is also Dennings recommended program as discussed in this. episode!   Use our link for a discount!  Shadow Work and Psychedelic-Assisted Therapies – Article from Mind Medicine Australia by Nigel Denning Integrative Attachment Therapy (IAT) – Media Release Integrative Psychology – Website & Resource Previous episodes on psychedelic-assisted therapies to deepen your exploration: Non-drug Psychedelic Therapy with Trey Ratcliff TU 129 A Dose of Hope TU Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy with Dan Engle 167 And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!!   Events, Announcements & Resource Links  From Triggers to Boundaries – Secure Relating in Tumultuous Times – Reserve your spot now!! – Join us for a live podcast recording bridging psychological research with real-world application. Ann and Sue will unpack the most practical aspects of modern attachment theory and relational neurobiology to help you navigate challenging times in everyday life. Mind, Body, Social, & Spiritual Approaches for Healing Attachment: 30 World-Leading Pioneers Share Their Best Practices – Register now for the Holistic Attachment Summit!! – This summit will explore the most essential ideas in attachment theory, research, and how they can be applied to create deep and lasting healing for clients — enabling you to be at the forefront of evidence-based care. Click here to register!! Trauma Therapy Directory – Resources for Trauma, PTSD, and Complex PTSD – Created by our friends at the Trauma Therapy Network! Support this library of content at TU staying FREE and TOTALLY ACCESSIBLE by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode –  – This beautiful space is the location for our LIVE PODCAST 9/5/24!  Community + wrap-around wellness including float tanks, ice baths, cedar plank saunas, IV infusions and ketamine.  Mention Therapist Uncensored at checkout for discounts off day experiences and to waive sign-up fees for membership. Austin Women’s professional development summit – it’s a huge networking event 9/13/24!  Get your tickets now! Coffee alternative powered by mushrooms!  Listeners get 20% off plus a free starter kit.  Piquelife.com/tu   Our favorite skin quencher.  Use the code TU when you checkout at oneskin.co     Thanks for listening, friends, & for being on this journey with us!

Improv in Therapy and in Life – Explore the power – and sheer fun – of using improvisation in therapy! Dr. Ann Kelley and Lisa Kays discuss how improv can deepen conversations around tough topics like race and oppression. They examine white supremacy culture and show how improv values like collaboration, slowing down, and embracing complexity can challenge these norms. Improv fosters creativity, playfulness, and self-reflection to help reduce defensiveness and strengthen relationships in everyday life, at work, or in our closest relationships. By creating a supportive, collaborative environment, improv deepens connections and helps people tap into a wider range of emotions. “A culture of improvisation is collaborative – it is nature – you cannot do it by yourself.” – Lisa Kays Time Stamps for Improv in Therapy & Life 03:30 The integration of improv and tough conversations 10:03 The origins of improv and its connection to social justice 14:27 Contrasting white supremacy culture and improv culture 19:20 Questioning cultural norms and valuing relationships 25:29 The power of the ‘And’ in joining and connecting 38:27 The power of improv in building secure relationships 53:25 Embracing creativity and letting go of perfectionism 58:12 Creating a culture of support and collaboration 01:05:04 Applying improv in everyday life 01:09:10 Deepening connections and accessing different emotions About our Guest for Improv Therapy – Lisa Kays LICSW, LCSW, LCSW-C Lisa Kays, LICSW, LCSW-C, LCSW, is an independently licensed clinical social worker in Washington, D.C, Maryland, Virginia, Oregon and New Jersey. She obtained her MSW from Catholic University in 2011 and has worked in a variety of clinical settings. Since 2013, she has been in private practice, providing individual, couples and group therapy to adults. She has interest in social work ethic and has published on and leads ethics training on the intersection of technology, social media and social work ethics as well as anti-racism and systemic oppression. Her practice also provides opportunities for other presenters to develop CE trainings on under-taught topics linked to social justice, systemic racism, and oppression. In addition to her traditional psychotherapy work, Lisa was a performing improviser from 2007-2019 and was on the faculty of Washington Improv Theatre from 2008-2016. She developed Washington Improv Theater’s first Improv for Therapist’s class and has offered Improv for Therapists courses, workshops and trainings to individual clinicians, pastors, life coaches, and psychiatrists, as well as clinical agencies. Since its inception, Lisa has trained more than 500 people in the application of improvisation to foster personal growth and stronger and more cohesive groups. Lisa has been invited to lead trainings in improv-informed therapy at the American Academy of Psychotherapists, the Mid-Atlantic Group Psychotherapy Association, the American Group Psychotherapy Association, and at The Psychotherapy Networker, among others. Her work has been featured in The Washington Post and on NBC4. Recently, Lisa launched a humor, humility-infused podcast, “What if Nothing’s Wrong With You?” with co-host Paula D. Atkinson on themes related to therapy, mental health, oppression, patriarchy and how it’s all interconnected. Resources for Improv Therapy –  Lisa Kay’s – Website & Resources The Fierce Urgency of Now: Improvisation, Rights, and the Ethics of Cocreation (Improvisation, Community, and Social Practice) – by Fischlin, Daniel; Heble, Ajah; Lipsitz, George Theater Games – Viola Spolin Resources Rehearsals for Growth – Website and Educational Resources Decolonizing Therapy: Oppression, Historical Trauma, and Politicizing Your Practice – book by Jennifer Mullan, PsyD The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron – Book and Resources Free Play: Improvisation in Life and Art – Nachmanovitch, Stephen And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! Therapists: This is our recommended class for going deeper and learning the most. You will not be disappointed! Use our link for a discount!  Dr. Elliott’s Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information   Support this show staying FREE and TOTALLY ACCESSIBLE by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode Go to puritywoods.com/TU or enter code TU at checkout for 27% off.   Go to helloned.com/TU or enter code TU at checkout for a discount.   Go to ZocDoc.com/TU This is a no-brainer – use it to find just about any specialist you are looking for. Thanks for listening, friends!

Everyone is familiar with reacting “in the heat of the moment,” but do we really understand what that means? Regulation basics include the protection or connection pathways to interpersonal relating. With the high tension we’re experiencing in the world today, it can feel particularly challenging to practice secure relating. We are re-sharing one of our impactful episodes where Ann Kelley and Sue Marriott explore the inner workings of our nervous system auto-pilot settings: protection vs connection. Click here to view the original show notes for this episode! Time Stamps for Protection or Connection 00:00 Understanding our internal working model 01:05 Our body responds so much faster than our mind03:11 The story we tell amplifies the body’s response 05:30 Story vs State: Protective System and the Relational Connective System 08:11 Awareness of our state and identifying the tells of a protective system 16:12 The awareness of self in the presence of another, the relational system 17:49 Our smartest brain 19:30 Tells when you’re in a relational, connective, and reflective place 25:21 Tolerating difficult emotions 29:32 Use your own name to identify yourself 31:24 Ways to calm your body down 36:40 Pre-emptive strike; we get defensive because of the threat inside of our body 39:26 Positive interpretation of a story 41:02 Conclusion _______ Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Support the show by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode Go to Piquelife.com/tu Go to helloned.com/TU or enter code TU at checkout.   Dr. Elliott’s Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information – Follow this link for 5% off enrollment!   Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!                Thanks for listening!  If you haven’t yet please do drop us a rating/review wherever you get your podcasts.  It helps us spread the word about secure relating far and wide – thanks friends for being on this journey with us!

“Being Asian American means living in two worlds, and finding your place in both.” Dr. Ann Kelley and Hyeseung Song, a first-generation Korean American discuss Hyeseung’s experiences growing up as an Asian minority in America, touching on topics like racial stereotypes, assimilation, and the model minority myth. Hyeseung shares her journey of finding her voice and identity, highlighting the mental health challenges of navigating different cultures and the path to self-acceptance. “…realizing that I was kind of a third distinct thing, maybe not completely Korean, maybe not completely American, but Korean American – something very special that I was learning and etching out for myself.” – Hyeseung Song Time Stamps for Journey to Self-Discovery: Navigating Identity and Mental Health as a Korean American Immigrant  5:17 – Growing up as Korean American 9:23 – The impact of racial stereotypes and assimilation 23:23 – Code-Switching and Balancing Cultural Expectations 26:24 – The Toll of Hypervigilance on Mental Health 29:14 – Finding Voice and Identity as a Korean American 36:58 – The Importance of Culturally Competent Mental Health Care 41:17 – Asian American Collaboration and Advocacy 46:13 – Embracing Identity and Fighting Racial Stereotypes: The Role of Younger Generations 56:22 – Finding Support and Being Seen 59:27 – The Importance of a Common Language in Therapy 01:06:57 –  Curiosity and Connection in Conversations about Race and Identity About our Guest – Hyeseung Song  Photo by Jack Sorokin   Hyeseung Song is a first-generation Korean American painter and the author of Docile: Memoirs of a Not-So-Perfect Asian Girl (Simon & Schuster). She lives in Brooklyn and upstate New York. Learn more about her at hyeseungsong.com. Resources for today’s episode –  Click here to visit Hyeseung’s website “They Called Us Exceptional” – Prachi Gupta’s Memoir “The Body Keeps the Score”  Dr. Kenneth V. Hardy – Author, Professor & Director of the Eikenberg Institute Suicide statistic: #1 cause of death among young AAPI adults 15-24 is suicide   Check out Hyeseung Song’s book – Docile: Memoirs of a Not-So-Perfect Asian Girl     Instagram @hyeseungs Twitter @hyeseungs Tiktok @noturdocile Other Relevant Therapist Uncensored Episodes https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/healing-intergenerational-ancestral-trauma-with-linda-thai/ _______ Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Support the show by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode Go to ARMRA.com and use code TU at checkout!   Go to Piquelife.com/tu Dr. Elliott’s Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information – Follow this link for 5% off enrollment!     Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!                Thanks for listening!  If you haven’t yet please do drop us a rating/review wherever you get your podcasts.  It helps us spread the word about secure relating far and wide – thanks friends for being on this journey with us!

Let’s revisit the “Felt Sense” Polyvagal model Enjoy this replay episode with Jan Winhall, as we explore how our bodies can guide us towards healing and growth through the concept of “felt sense.” This approach integrates neuroscience and focuses on our innate ability to perceive and respond to our experiences. Winhall’s work challenges conventional views on navigating challenges influenced by culture and trauma. Click here to view Jan Winhall’s original shownotes  Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Interest in David Elliot’s Integrative Attachment Training? Click here!! Support the show by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode with Jan Winhall  Go to ARMRA.com and use code TU at checkout!   ‘ Go to ZocDoc.com/TU   Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberatio   We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our communit Thanks for listening!  If you haven’t yet please do drop us a rating/review wherever you get your podcasts.  It helps us spread the word about secure relating far and wide – thanks friends for being on this journey with us!

Episode Swap!! Check out this cross-over episode with Robyn Gobbel One of the many incredible aspects of this community are the people we are able to connect and learn with, like Robyn Gobbel. She is a licensed social worker, podcast host, keynote speaker, writer, trainer & consultant – and even host launch this spring. This episode, Ann and Sue joined her on her podcast, “The Baffling Behavior Show”, to talk about secure relating. Click here to see “The Baffling Behavior Show” show notes  Looking for our reading and discussion groups? Click here!! Other Relevant Therapist Uncensored Episodes with Robyn Gobbel https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu142-trauma-informed-therapy-with-kids-with-robyn-gobbel-msw-rpt-s/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu53-complex-trauma-and-managing-dysregulation-with-guest-robyn-gobbel/ Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Interest in David Elliot’s Integrative Attachment Training? Click here!! Support the show by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode with Robyn Gobbel  Go to ARMRA.com and use code TU at checkout!   Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberatio   We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our communit Thanks for listening!  If you haven’t yet please do drop us a rating/review wherever you get your podcasts.  It helps us spread the word about secure relating far and wide – thanks friends for being on this journey with us!

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Part 3 of 3 – Let’s talk about deepening security relationally Curiosity, emotional honesty and discernment… magic ingredients to preserve and express your security. Ann and Sue focus on context over the intrapsychic in this episode, which expands on the last thrid of the ideas from their book, Secure Relating Holding Your Own in an Insecure World. Moving from individual to interpersonal and then societal levels, we discuss the complexities of human connection. Ann and Sue touch on the dark side of empathy and oxytocin, explore leadership and the need for nuance in navigating today’s challenges while aiming to expand beyond just the Western lens. Whether it be with your partner or even how you navigate your community – building security helps every single one of us.  They hope to help you do your part in this crucial work of deepening your connection to the goodness of yourself and others and mobilizing your voice to stand up for those who need us. “Our growth does not just happen in the therapy office, it happens through all of our relational experiences and is enhanced by interpersonal risk we take safe people throughout our lives.”  – Sue Marriott Time Stamps for Security Individually, Relationally, and in Community  1:55 – Deeping security among us  4:23 – What is a primary? 9:31 – Why we don’t use the word “treatment” 18:37 – Empathy and Oxitocyn aren’t always good  24:19 – Why receiving opposing feedback is important Resources for Security Individually, Relationally, and in Community  Click here to secure your spot in the Secure Relating Reading Pod – starting soon! You can get your copy here!!   Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!          Thanks for listening!  If you haven’t yet please do drop us a rating/review wherever you get your podcasts.  It helps us spread the word about secure relating far and wide – thanks friends for being on this journey with us!

The party isn’t over quite yet. This is part 2 of 3 of our behind-the-scenes look at our book journey. Following the launch of the book, our virtual party, and our Modern Attachment conference in Austin, TX, Ann and Sue open with gratitude from the event, and for the overwhelming outpour of love and support from our community and those who help inspire this content. As we dive into more chapters of the book, we lean into understanding the attachment spectrum colors, recognizing what is happening internally when we feel activated, and shifting activation levels. “This isn’t about pathologizing – this is about learning the patterns of how our body responds when we get activated and what to do next.” – Sue Marriott Time Stamps for Shifting Activation Levels 00:32 – Trying to process the overwhelming virtual launch with the incredible attachment community 5:02 – Engaging different activation states – looking at Part 2 of Secure Relating 11:02 – Direct look into blue leaning patterns, dismissing attachment activation via Chapter 8 15:32- Understanding the behaviors behind  “blue” with compassion and watching for shame 19:14 – Cooling down red activation – preoccupied patterns via Chapter 9 23:13 – Resolving the unresolved -tye dye patterns and trauma, via a peek into Chapter 10  Resources for Shifting Activation Levels Click here to secure your spot in the Secure Relating Reading Pod – starting soon! You can get your copy here!!       TherapyChat – Friend of the podcast, Laura Reagan, LCSW-C’s podcast Support the show by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode   Go to Zocdoc.com/TU  Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!          Thanks for listening!  If you haven’t yet please do drop us a rating/review wherever you get your podcasts.  It helps us spread the word about secure relating far and wide – thanks friends for being on this journey with us!

It’s finally here! Secure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World is out now! After years of hard work, Sue and Ann could not be more excited to celebrate the release of their book. Today’s episode offers behind the scene’s conversation and a deeper dive into Part 1 of the book, Secure Relating Holding Your Own in an Insecure World. You can purchase it now directly at www.securerelatingbook.com and get an ad-free podcast feed at www.therapistuncensored.com/join. “We survive because of our innate longing for connection….” – Sue Marriott Time Stamps for Secure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World  1:45 – Information about our book & book launch 15:25 – Breaking down the three section of the book 29:22 – The armor of the sturdy survivor  31:06 – Sue’s anecdote and analysis of the MMPI test 35:54 – Overview of the Three R Healing Spiral  45:28 – Reflecting and Building Agency  Resources for Secure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World  Click here to secure your spot in the Secure Relating Reading Pod – starting soon! Want to join the live virtual book launch on 5/1? Sign up here!  You can get your copy here!!       Support the show by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode Check out AG1 at AthleticGreens.com/TherapistUncensored Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!          Thanks for listening!  If you haven’t yet please do drop us a rating/review wherever you get your podcasts.  It helps us spread the word about secure relating far and wide – thanks friends for being on this journey with us!

Appreciate this podcast?  Then please, help us reach our goal of 7,000 pre-orders for Secure Relating, Holding Your Own in an Insecure World.   Click here to learn more about the conference!! Over 100 episodes after their last interview, Ann and Sue are thrilled to be back discussing all things attachment with Dr. David Elliott. Together they delve into the Three Pillars therapy model development, centered around three key elements: enhancing collaboration, fostering metacognition, and constructing new internal working models through imagery. Dr. Elliott elaborates on how the therapeutic journey prioritizes the therapeutic alliance, perspective-taking, and employing mental imagery to cultivate fresh attachment dynamics. “…the field of attachment is full of wonderful research, researchers, and information – some of which is conflicting, some of which is controversial – but that just means the field is alive and there’s room for lots of people to offer ideas and to evolve the field further.” – Dr. David Elliott Time Stamps for Integrative Attachment Therapy  02:01 – Overview of the Three Pillars 07:11- Limitations of the Therapist as Good Attachment Figure Model 14:42 – Integration and the Evolution of the Three Pillars Model 29:50 – The Use of Mental Imagery in Creating New Internal Working Models 39:46 – Research and Future Directions 47:16 – The Benefits of Sequential Learning 53:47 – The Virtual Book Launch and Community Support 01:00:23 – The Five Conditions that Promote Attachment Security 01:08:09 – Contact Information and Conclusion About our Guest – Dr. David Elliott  Dr. David Elliott is a licensed psychologist who earned his Ph.D. in Psychology from Harvard University in 1989. His clinical training at Harvard included externships at Tufts University Counseling Centerand St. Elizabeth’s Medical Center, as well as a clinical psychology internship and post-doctoral fellowship at McLean Hospital. He has held leadership positions in the Rhode Island Psychological Association and the Coalition of Mental Health Professionals of Rhode Island. Since 1998, Dr. Elliott has been on the faculty of the International School for Psychotherapy, Counseling, and Group Leadership in St. Petersburg, Russia, and serves as Chair of its International Advisory Board. He also teaches at Psykosyntes Akademin in Stockholm, Sweden. Dr. Elliott’s recent focus has been on secure and insecure attachment, culminating in the co-authoring of “Attachment Disturbances in Adults: Treatment for Comprehensive Repair” in 2016. He conducts workshops internationally on the methods outlined in the book for mental health professionals. Resources for today’s episode – Integrative Attachment Therapy Dr. Elliott’s Website Dr. Elliott’s Integrative Attachment Therapy Course Information – Follow this link for 5% off enrollment! Check out Dr. Elliott’s book – Attachment Disturbances in Adults: Treatment for Comprehensive Repair https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/heal-attachment-and-find-security-during-covid/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu34-treating-attachment-difficulties-with-dr-david-elliott/   Don’t forget: Register today for the May 2024 Conference – Earlybird pricing ending 4/1/24 Free public talk on Secure Relating in person,  – Click here!! Secure Relating will be in your hands when it’s released 4/30/24 if you order it today! Questions? Email us at info@TherapistUncensored.com _______ Support the show by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/TU   Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!              Thanks for listening!  If you haven’t yet please do drop us a rating/review wherever you get your podcasts.  It helps us spread the word about secure relating far and wide – thanks friends for being on this journey with us!

Meet some of our previous guests at the virtual launch May 1, 2024! Pre-order now to meet David Elliott, Carol George, Tina Payne Bryson and many more!   Click here to learn more about the conference!! Do you have your metaphorical sunglasses on? Ann and Sue are back for another deep dive, this time on all things information processing. Using the concept of sunglasses as a metaphor for information distortion, they explain how our internal working models and attachment experiences shape the way we perceive and interpret information. The sunglasses represent different states of activation, with clear glasses indicating a secure state and aviator sunglasses representing a defensive, self-protective state. Sunglasses can affect our relationships – but they don’t have to stop us from building healthy connections. Follow along as we explore the importance of curiosity, self-reflection, and open-mindedness in navigating relationships. “…you can be very responsive to the people around you and their different states, but you’re also equally responsive to your own battery, your own needs, your own wishes, your own frustrations – that matters too.” – Sue Marriott Time Stamps for Information Processing  1:06 – Introducing the metaphor of sunglasses 6:27 – Recognizing information distortion and its impact 12:37 – Understanding positive and negative transference 18:15 – Deep dive into the meaning behind the Aviator sunglasses metaphor  23:28 – The impact of early attachment experiences 35:44 – How our stories can impact the way our nervous system responds 41:01 – Questions can feel threatening neurologically  43:49 – The crazy 8 anecdote  45:51 – Being aware of our own sunglass distortions  Information Processing Resources  Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Mental Health Liberation is our primary partner at this time – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists. Support the show by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode!    Go to Zocdoc.com/TU

Don’t catch the certainty virus! Collective trauma requires collective healing We can understand our social pain by considering the nervous system, just think of it as a collective amygdala hijack!  Threat is pressing us to live in an alarm state and then we get used to it, as if it’s normal to be so divided, hopeless and disdainful to those who are holding different positions in the world. We need to cultivate secure (mature) relating to move ourselves back into a social, relational place that makes us more generous, compassionate and able to work with complexity to stay engaged to solve some of these pressing world and community issues. Keep hope alive! Ann and Sue delve into the pressing emotional and social challenges confronting our world today. They examine the impact of divisive political rhetoric, the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic, collective distrust, and widespread trauma on individuals and society as a whole. Emphasizing the necessity of self-awareness and accountability, they underscore the role each person plays in contributing to collective healing and regulation. Throughout their conversation, Ann and Sue stress the importance of vulnerability, genuine connection, and the pursuit of healing as essential components of addressing systemic issues and promoting relational solutions. They also tackle the complexities of polarization, advocating for open-mindedness, nuance, and empathy in navigating ideological differences and fostering constructive dialogue. Explore the transformative potential of emotions like anger and the power of connection and love in driving positive societal change. “…if you can get your mind and your body connected and be deliberate about your actions, you’re going to bemore powerful” – Sue Marriott Time Stamps for Collective Dysregulation 1:42 – Reflecting on current events and polarization  4:40 – Sue’s bug analogy from the book  7:55 – Understanding our reactivity  10:15 – We have to go inward and look inward  15:25 – Ann’s anecdote of sitting with the discomfort 17:44 – Tools to “hang in there” and to try to stay regulated 18:46 – Explanation of the “certainty virus”  30:17 – Taking responsibility for our part  32:23 – The need for vulnerability and safety  35:15 – Cultivating safety around you  37:55 – Letting anger inform  48:34 – Holding our own individually and collectively 50:46 – Keeping hope alive  58:31 – Recognizing the signs of collectiveness and collective activation Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Mental Health Liberation is our primary partner at this time – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists. And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Check out our other past and upcoming events here!!

“Hypnosis is more like an anti-inflammatory drug, you use it to solve a problem.” Join Dr. Ann Kelley and Dr. David Spiegel as they dive into the benefits and misconceptions of hypnosis. Hypnosis is a state of highly focused attention and cognitive flexibility, allowing individuals to explore new possibilities. Whether it’s trouble with sleep, intense anxiety, or a need to break bad habits, hypnosis has proven to be an effective tool for many. Dr. Spiegel has dedicated years of research and emphasizes the importance of accessibility to hypnosis in our healthcare systems. His app R E V E R I has over 1 million downloads and allows you to rewire your brain, conquer negative habits, and achieve personal growth from home. “…People in hypnosis can turn down that superego part of the brain that says, ‘here’s who you’re supposed to be’and ‘here’s what you were raised to be’ and ‘here’s how you should be’, and just says – ‘What if I were different? What would it feel like?‘“ – Dr. David Spiegel About our Guest – Dr. David Spiegel Dr. David Spiegel is Willson Professor and Associate Chair of Psychiatry & Behavioral Sciences, Director of the Center on Stress and Health, and Medical Director of the Center for Integrative Medicine at Stanford University School of Medicine, where he has been a member of the academic faculty since 1975, and was Chair of the Stanford University Faculty Senate from 2010-2011. Dr. Spiegel has more than 40 years of clinical and research experience studying psycho-oncology, stress and health, pain control, psychoneuroendocrinology, sleep, hypnosis, and conducting randomized clinical trials involving psychotherapy for cancer patients. He has published thirteen books, 404 scientific journal articles, and 170 book chapters on hypnosis, psychosocial oncology, stress physiology, trauma, and psychotherapy. His research has been supported by the National Institute of Mental Health, the National Cancer Institute, the National Institute on Aging, the National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health, the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, the Fetzer Institute, the Dana Foundation for Brain Sciences, and the Nathan S. Cummings Foundation. He was a member of the work groups on stressor and trauma-related disorders for the DSM-IV and DSM-5 editions of the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. He is Past President of the American College of Psychiatrists and the Society for Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis, and is a Member of the National Academy of Medicine. He was invited to speak on hypnosis at the World Economic Forum in Davos in 2018. Time Stamps for Hypnosis for Healing 00:15 – Dr. Spiegel’s beginning with hypnosis work  2:30 – What is hypnosis? 2:56 – The myths around hypnosis 5:32 – How hypnosis is different from standard mindfulness? 8:29 – Similarities between hypnosis and mindfulness 13:29 – Effectiveness of hypnosis for sleep and anxiety 23:09 – Understanding the R E V E R I app  31:20 – The effects on smoking with hypnosis 37:20 – Hypnosis and trauma  44:48 – Who is a good candidate for hypnosis? 47:39 – Introduction to the “hypno-pharmacy” on the app  55:23 – Your hypnotizability and genetics 57:13 – Hypnotizability and attachment theory Resources for today’s episode – Hypnosis for Healing Dr. Spiegel’s Website & Profile Publications – The full list of Dr. Spiegel’s publications R E V E R I – Try Dr. Spiegel’s hypnosis app Effect of Psychosocial Treatment on Survival of Patients with Metastatic Breast Cancer – Referenced research article on psychosocial treatment And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Check out our other past and upcoming events here!!  Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!          Thanks for listening!  If you haven’t yet please do drop us a rating/review wherever you get your podcasts.  It helps us spread the word about secure relating far and wide – thanks friends for being on this journey with us!

“The more that we unlearn, the more that we decolonize our minds, bodies, hearts and spirits” – Dr. Shena Young Join co-host Sue Marriott and Dr. Shena Young as they dive into liberation psychology and the conflict between intuition and the traditional European model of psychology. Dr. Shena highlights embodying a holistic approach to help heal traumas and deeply root us in our most authentic selves. Whether through connections with nature or the exploration of ancestral traditions, this discussion is enriched with various opportunities to reconnect and liberate our mind, body, heart, and spirit. About our Guest – Dr. Shena Young (She/Her) Affectionately known as Dr. Shena (she/her) & spiritually as Iya Osunbunmi Orisasewa, she is a licensed embodiment-focused psychologist–healer, artist, mental health futurist, on-set wellbeing professional, and priestess in the Isese tradition of Ifa. She holds space internationally for individuals, couples, groups, and organizations committed to the ritual of calling themselves back into their bodies as a freedom practice. She owns a private practice, embodied truth healing & psychological services, rooted in Los Angeles, CA where she offers mind–body–heart–spirit care in healing from sexual, racial, intergenerational, and ancestral traumas. Time Stamps for Embodying Liberation Psychology  1:30 – Dr. Shena’s journey with liberation psychology and decolonization 7:25 – Dr. Shena’s early life and intuition 9:48 – Body language is one of our first languages 18:58 – Understanding the pillars of authenticity  20:52 – Embracing the mind, body, heart, spirit approach 28:21 – Unlearning scarcity and expecting abundance 33:29 – Thinking of currency as seeds 41:37 – New interests in ancient traditions 44:11 – What the act of grounding may look like  51:45 – The decriminalization of psychedelic plant medicines  56:30 – There is power in practicing choice 1:05:01 – Impact of The Color Purple Resources for today’s episode – Embodying Liberation Psychology EmbodiedTruthHealing.com – Dr. Shena’s website Healing Opportunities with Dr. Shena @EmbodiedTruthHealing – Dr. Shena’s Instagram Invest in healing programs for BIPOC Dr. Clenora Hudson-Weems website – Where Dr. Shena first learned about Africana Womanist theory Body Rites – Dr. Shena’s book. Get your copy, here!! And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Check out our other past and upcoming events here!!  Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!      Thanks for listening!  If you haven’t yet please do drop us a rating/review wherever you get your podcasts.  It helps us spread the word about secure relating far and wide – thanks friends for being on this journey with us!

“Boundaries are self-worth in action” – Juliane Taylor Shore We’re back with long-time friend of the podcast and expert, Juliane Taylor Shore LMFT, LPC, SEP. As we reflect on our episode from six years ago on boundaries, we dive into new knowledge and how we can create boundaries that stick. Juliane Taylor Shore blends her original methods like “the jello wall” with new research to share exciting and thoughtful insight on how through boundaries we can harness compassion in our relationships with others and ourselves. “I have also seen that learning to trust yourself is a huge part of safety. When we handle life well, it’s often the result of treating ourselves with love and respect, and leaning in to those who love us too.” – Juliane Taylor Shore About our Guest – Juliane Taylor Shore LMFT, LPC, SEP Juliane Taylor Shore is a therapist, author, teacher, and mom who is creating spaces where people can move into more self-compassion, self-trust, empowerment, and integrity. She regularly teaches and speaks to people from all around the world, and translates new understandings in neurobiology into practices that can support brain change. She is also the author of Setting Boundaries that Stick: How Neurobiology Can Help You Rewire Your Brain to Feel Safe, Connected and Empowered and an Associate Instructor with the Coherence Institute, and a core faculty member with Therapy Wisdom. Time Stamps for Setting Boundaries that Stick  00:53 – How Juliane wrote her book 3:15 – New ideas around boundary work 5:30 – Different categories of assessments 6:01 – Expanding the concept of boundaries 11:26 – Minds experience the world in different ways 16:34 – Explanation of the jello wall analogy 25:59 – Understanding the containing boundary 28:59 – The big emotional “oomph” 30:57 – What if you found your own version of a compassion gesture? 33:22 – Examples of key words 38:54 – The fourth boundary, physical 40:27 – Boundary repair, what it means to “gently come back to yourself” 50:38 – Creating the external boundary map Resources for today’s episode  Juliane Taylor Shore – Official website iPNB of Austin – Official website Therapy Wisdom – Official website How Neurobiology Can Help You Rewire Your Brain to Feel Safe, Connected, and Empowered – Book by Juliane Taylor Shore   Other Relevant Therapist Uncensored Episodes  https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu81-how-good-boundaries-actually-bring-us-closer-with-guest-juliane-taylor-shore/ Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Mental Health Liberation is our primary partner at this time – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists. We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and who knows what else may come!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Check out our other past and upcoming events here!!

Discomfort is a necessary part of liberating ourselves from patriarchal and white supremacist ideology Art by Nisha K. Sethi This is part two of a two-part series with the founder of Inclusive Therapists, Melody and TU Co-host, Sue Marriott. This episode features challenging yet important conversations on active anti-racist practices, exploration of oppression, and dismantling whiteness in mental health structures. Melody emphasizes the need for white clinicians to examine their own complicity in upholding oppressive systems and to listen to and center the experiences of marginalized communities. They also highlight the interconnectedness of healing and the power of collective liberation through rehumanizing. “…if I uphold a system that I know is dehumanizing someone, I become less human myself.” – Melody Li, LMFT (they/佢) About our Guest – Melody Li, LMFT (they/佢)  Melody Li, LMFT (they/佢) is the founder of Inclusive Therapists: a mental health directory, resource hub & community centering marginalized communities. They also founded Mental Health Liberation, a non-profit bridging Black, Indigenous, and People of Color with free, quality therapy, and empowering Students & Clinicians of Color. Their activism focuses on decolonizing mental health care and dismantling the industrial complex. The colony-born migrant and settler on Turtle Island advocates for Landback, Indigenous Sovereignty, and Black Liberation as a priority. Time Stamps for Decolonizing the Mental Health System (Part 2) 2:18 – Definition of QTBIPOC 3:22 – Deep dive into anti-oppressive and liberators practices 8:20 – Understanding cis-gender identity  9:49 – Structural oppression is not about your feelings 15:34 – How white feminism can be exclusionary  17:06 – Dismantling whiteness from the mental health field  23:30 – Actions items for white clinicians to be more inclusive 25:52 – Top down versus bottom-down healing 30:40 – The core of oppression is to dehumanize Resources for today’s episode – Decolonizing the Mental Health System (Part 2) Pedagogy of the Oppressed by Paulo Freire – Literature recommendation by Melody Li Melody Li’s Website  Melody Li’s Instagram Profile Inclusive Therapists Resource Library Open Letter: End Mental Health Field’s Complicity to Genocide Steadfast for Collective Liberation Newsletter: Confronting our Bullshit & Toxicity Palestinian Liberation: Lessons in Solidarity for Mental Health Providers Palestinian Liberation Resources When is exploring whiteness clinically relevant? (Melody Li, LMFT) Dismantling whiteness, white feminism and supremacy delusion: resources by Black, Indigenous and People of Color (Li advised against buying white authors on this subject) Decolonizing Therapy (Dr. Jenn Mullan) Stages of Colonialism in Africa: From Occupation of Land to Occupation of Being (Hussein A. Bulhan) All psychologies are indigenous psychologies: Reflections on psychology in a global era (Anthony J. Marsella) Mental Health Liberation: Website | Instagram | Facebook | BIPOC Therapy Fund | Liberatory Student Support Circle Inclusive Therapists: Website | Instagram | Facebook  And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!!   Check out our other past and upcoming events here!!

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Love Letter to Group Psychotherapy While Ann and Sue are in DC at the American Group Psychotherapy Association Conference, we thought this was the perfect opportunity to replay one of our favorite episodes. Co-hosts Sue Marriott and Patty Olwell interview colleagues at the American Group Psychotherapy 2016 Association Annual Meeting in New York. They talk about why they love group therapy and why it is so valuable to their clients. We want to thank our interviewees for their help and insights. Interviewees for this Episode… Tammy Brown – Austin TX tammybrowntherapy.com Jamie Moran – San Francisco CA jamiemoran.com Rita Drapkin – Indiana University of Pennsylvania (724)357-2621 Pierre Choucroun – Austin TX Pierre M Choucroun on Psychology Today Kelly Inselmann – Austin TX kellyinselmann.com Liz Rosenblatt – Los Angeles CA Dr Elizabeth Rosenblatt on LAGPA RESOURCES: Additional resources for this episode: Austin Group Psychotherapy Society: Organization that promotes group therapy and provides training for clinicians American Group Psychotherapy Association: National organization that promotes group therapy as a cost effective and clinical valuable treatment. Psychodynamic Group Psychotherapy Scott Rutan Walter Stone and Joseph Shay. These are masters of group. An excellent text for therapists and others eager to learn about group. You can trust these authors And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! Click here to see our past and upcoming events!!  Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join! Mental Health Liberation is our primary partner at this time – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists. We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and who knows what else may come!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!

Not your ordinary journaling… a science-backed technique that gets to the heart of bottom-up healing. You may have heard about this protocol on the Huberman Lab Podcast. Co-hosts Ann and Sue discuss the power of expressive writing as a tool for physical and emotional healing directly with the original researcher, Dr. James Pennebaker. While his protocol is not a simple “elixir” to cure mental or physical illness, Dr. Pennebaker has dedicated years of research and found this kind of expressive writing to be an effective method of healing for many people. Writing without boundaries or expectations can allow us to enter a stream of consciousness and better process our feelings and experiences of trauma. “As the number of studies increased, it became clear that writing was a far more powerful tool for healing than anyone had ever imagined.” – Dr. James Pennebaker About our Guest – Dr. James Pennebaker James W. Pennebaker is Professor Emeritus of Psychology. He is continuing to explore natural language use, group dynamics, and personality in both laboratory and real world settings. His earlier work on expressive writing found that physical health and work performance can improve by simple writing and/or talking exercises. His cross-disciplinary research is related to linguistics, clinical and cognitive psychology, communications, medicine, and computer science. Author or editor of 12 books and over 300 articles, Pennebaker has received numerous research and teaching awards and honors.   Time Stamps for Neuroscience-proven Expressive Writing Protocol  00:49 – Dr. Pennebaker’s background 3:31 – Secrets are unhealthy  12:45 – Interesting findings from his writing experiment 17:46 – Dr. Pennebaker’s blood draw study 21:35 – One of the big problems with expressive writing 25:52 – Understanding executive function and working memory  27:31 – Three of the most impactful psychological tools  33:37 – The difference between standard journaling and these writing exercises 38:40 – The benefits of open-ended questions 46:16 – The emergent process of writing 59:03 – Anecdote about how Dr. Pennebaker’s analysis contributed to an exoneration 1:02 – What language can tell us about political leadership Resources for today’s episode – Expressive Writing Protocol The Pennebaker Lanuage Lab Linguistic Inquiry & Word Count – Text analysis tools Publications – A list of Dr. Pennebaker’s publications Website – Dr. Pennebaker’s UT website and information Transcripts for A Neuroscience-Proven Expressive Writing Protocol with Dr. James Pennebaker (225) And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! Click here to see our past and upcoming events!!  Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Mental Health Liberation is our primary partner at this time – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists. We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and who knows what else may come!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!

How Good Boundaries Actually Bring Us Closer This is a replay episode as we gear up for another exciting conversation with Juliane Taylor Shore – enjoy this refresh on setting and maintaining boundaries! Link to the original show notes, here!! And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! Click here to see our past and upcoming events!!  Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation   We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!

The 2020 COVID-19 pandemic has had lasting effects on our world – one of the most difficult being long COVID, which has shed light on chronic illnesses worldwide such as ME/CFS… In this episode, Ann and Sue share their research as well as personal experiences as caregivers for those with the illness and discuss the stigmas, invisibility, psychology of denial, support in advocating for your health, discussion of how to be a supportive caregiver, and secure relating in regards to chronic disease.  “…the notion is to come to accept something you might not have chosen, and strive to find peace with where you are at now … It’s not necessarily about getting back to where you were. It’s about growing from where you are today.” – Sue Marriott Time Stamps for Long Covid and ME/CFS 00:05 – Information about the May Modern Attachment Conference 7:55 – The difference between the names Myalgic Encephalomyelitis and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome 12:21 – How we use attribution error in coping with long COVID 19:04 – Understanding deep fatigue post-infection and the effects 24:42 – Markers of long covid  32:39 – Touching base with Westernized culture stigmas 34:37 – Impactful ways to emotionally support someone struggling with chronic illness 39:17 – The power in being able to tap in with our bodies 42:11 – Discussion of the book “Grappling with Cure” by Eli Clare 44:15 – Important reminders on taking your medical care seriuosly/advocate for yourself  Resources for today’s episode Long Covid  Brilliant Imperfection: Grappling with Cure by Eli Clare – A book Sue has been using as a resource for understanding and supporting chronic illness The Lonely, Isolating, and Alienating Implications of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome – Samir Boulazreg, Samir and Rokach, Ami – NIH Article Post-Exertional Symptom Exacerbation (PESE) – Long Covid Physio A discovery in the muscles of long COVID patients may explain exercise troubles – NPR Controversies related to chronic fatigue syndrome – Wikipedia article ME/CFS Research Published 26 December 2023 – 1 January 2024 – The ME Association The psychological impact of COVID-19 on the mental health in the general population – National Library of Medicine, Oxford University Article A Discussion on Secure Relating & Chronic Illness (223) – Transcripts Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Mental Health Liberation is our primary partner at this time – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists. We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and who knows what else may come!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! Click here to see our past and upcoming events!!

Welcome 2024! We are kicking off the new year with a special conversation between co-host Sue Marriott and special guest Jeff Lutes. Both members of the LGBTQ+ community, this discussion dives into raising families, the evolution of the community, allyship, gender, and the importance of advocacy. While there has been some progress, the LGBTQ+ community still actively faces discrimination. Whether you’re a practicing therapist with clients in the community or have LGBTQ-identifying loved ones, this episode is for you. Through a personal and professional lens, this conversation offers new perspectives and shines a light on the significance of staying educated and being an active voice.  “There are a lot of therapists that see themselves as affirming, but I think you have to get actively involved in order to be an ally.” – Jeff Lutes Time Stamps for Advocating for the LGBTQ+ Community  2:00 – Jeff’s anecdotes about religion and sexuality 11:18 – How advocacy can be a thankless job  12:00 – Introduction to the Contemporary Relationships Conference  14:34 – The difference between being trained in accepting versus educated  16:48 – The importance of knowing the correct terminology  20:39 – What we can learn from the polyamorous community  22:58 – Definition of queer and who that represents 24:37 – Let’s talk about pronouns  31:21 – Explanation of dead naming and why it is wrong 42:15 – Conversion therapy research and findings  47:00: Trailblazers in Love, Jeff’s book  Resources for today’s episode Advocating for the LGBTQ+ Community  Jeff Lute’s Website – Information, credentials, presentations and publications Contemporary Relationships Conference – Conference information and proposals Get your copy of his book, Trailblazers in Love, here!! About our Guest – Jeff Lutes, LPC Jeff specializes in creating collaborative conversations with clients that generate new possibilities for change.  Using a postmodern approach, he listens carefully to each client’s story and strives to understand how they might make meaning of themselves, others, and the world around them. He founded the Contemporary Relationships Conference and has presented to audiences around the country, including the American Association of Marriage & Family Therapy,  the American Family Therapy Academy, the American Counseling Association, and the Texas Psychological Association. He is also the author of Trailblazers In Love, as well as chapters in three counseling textbooks. Lutes also wrote a children’s book about adoption, deaf culture, and non-traditional families and has been a contributing writer at Bilerico and Therapy Matters.   We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and who knows what else may come!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  And of course, our book is also a great resource – it’s for professionals and life-long learners of all kinds. If you’ve read it we’d love to hear from you and if you support it, PLEASE leave a review on either Amazon or Goodreads. Tk you!! Get your copy of Secure Relating here!! Click here to see our past and upcoming events!!  Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Mental Health Liberation is our primary partner at this time – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists.

Goodbye 2023, Hello 2024 – Reflecting on impactful guests & topics of the year We explored many ideas this year and despite the variety of topics we found a consistent theme – nurturing secure relating in an insecure world. With wide-ranging interviews and, we were met with rich conversations and endless opportunities to grow. As we close out 2023 with gratitude, Ann and Sue look back at important episodes from this year, review lessons learned, and share exciting announcements to come in 2024. It’s coming….. Pre-order your book today! “When we are in a secure state of mind, we evoke that in others.” – Sue Marriott Time Stamps for TU 2023 Year in Review 4:21 – Reviewing the series, Secure Relating in an Insecure World 7:45 – Ann and Sue’s favorite topics from the series 17:45 – Takeaways from our two-part Dream series 22:47 – Explanation of failed mourning from episode 210 with Dr. Carol George 29:46 – How Ann and Sue practiced self-care this year 31:28 – Looking deeper into systems of poverty with Dr. Sharon Lambert 36:33 – Exploring our internal audiences 43:01 – Important lessons from the episode 207 with Dacher Keltner 45:40 – Austin IN Connection Live Event Announcement for 2024:  It will be a Secure Relating LIVE weekend!  Stay tuned – but we welcome those traveling and will make sure there are plenty of opportunities to connect! Resources for TU 2023 Year in Review This Jungian Life – A podcast from our guests on episode 201 that dives into Jungian dream analysis Other Relevant Therapist Uncensored Episodes https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/healing-intergenerational-ancestral-trauma-with-linda-thai/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/navigating-racial-trauma-part-1-203/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/intergenerational-conversation-climate-202/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/interpreting-dreams-with-a-jungian-lens-unlocking-a-world-within-ourselves-201/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/awe-for-collective-healing-series-sriw-ep-6/ https://mentalhealthliberation.org/bipoc-therapy-fund/ Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation     We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!      View the TU 2023 Year in Review – Building Internalized Secure Voices (221) – Transcripts Support the show by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode!  For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/TU     Go to Zocdoc.com/TU and download the Zocdoc app for FREE. Then find and book a top-rated doctor today.   Go to Cozyearth.com/TU   Pre-orders are officially available!  It will be delivered April 30, 2024 (a million years from now), but it’s coming!

Hair-pulling, skin picking, and cheek, lip, & cuticle biting are self-soothing strategies that depending on the degree can become body-focused repetitive behavioral disorders. Learn about a new attachment-informed psychodynamic model for treating these painful, shame-associated behaviors. This is a replay episode of our discussion with psychotherapist and body-focused repetitive behavioral expert, Stacy Nakell. Link to the original show notes, here!! Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation   We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!        Some of our sponsors – support them to support us!   Get 15% off with the code TU at oneskin.co     Get 55% off at Babbel.com/TU   Go to Cozyearth.com/TU     Thanks for stopping by, we hope the podcast (and these show notes) offer quality education and insight into interpersonal relationships.  An entirely free way to support us is to simply rate and review the podcast on your favorite podcast player, and/or to simply share this episode with someone you think could use the free resources on the show!

It’s time to start celebrating vulnerability While just the word vulnerability can trigger our defenses, it can also be a great gateway to secure relating and deepening the connection with our authentic selves. In a society heavily influenced by social media, unhealthy gender roles, and many other factors – Ann and Sue dive into the importance of changing the narrative and stepping out of our defensive invulnerable state and into our healthy, vulnerable selves.  “We’re swimming towards feeling vulnerability and recognizing it as not toxic – that is something desirable and something to be proud of” – Sue Marriott  Time Stamps for Ditching Invulnerability 1:09 – Introduction to toxic invulnerability  4:54 – Different ways we can stay in a place of invulnerability  5:58 – Does being defensive mean I’m being invulnerable? 8:36 – How invulnerability is toxic on an individual level 9:30 – The relationship between perfectionism and invulnerability 14:05 – Social media’s influence on keeping us afraid of vulnerability 16:12 – Sue’s Beyonce anecdote  19:51 – Practicing active vulnerability  27:28 – Anxiety and invulnerability  28:01 – Signs of invulnerability we may not recognize  34:23 – Why we should call it harmful invulnerability versus toxic invulnerability 37:05 – Embracing our most authentic selves through vulnerability Resources for Ditching Invulnerability Brene Brown’s Website – A resource where you can find her content on shame and vulnerability “It’s Not All in Your Head – You Do Focus Differently on Zoom” – Scientific American article on Zoom and human connection Other Relevant Therapist Uncensored Episodes https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/you-are-kenough-liz-plank-211/ Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation   We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!              Pre-order your book, here!! Pre-orders are officially available!!!  Get your book here!! View this episode’s transcripts, here!! Support the show by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode!  Get 15% off with the code TU at oneskin.co   For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/TU   Go to Zocdoc.com/TU and download the Zocdoc app for FREE. Then find and book a top-rated doctor today.

We’re back! With exciting updates from the TU team & sneak peeks about our book Relating from a place of inner security is not about an attachment category, and it can’t stop with us as individuals. Ann and Sue share exciting news and community updates for TU. With secure relating at the forefront, this episode includes a sneak peek into the structure of their new book, Secure Relating Holding Your Own in an Insecure World. They explain the three R healing spiral, cultivating community, and much more! Now is a great time to join our online Neuronerd community www.therapistuncensored.com/join! Find shownotes at www.therapistuncensored.com/tu218. “You can relate securely no matter your history, no matter your age, no matter your bad habits or good habits – this is something that’s accessible to all of us.” – Sue Marriott Sue & Ann – relaxing and recharging Time Stamps for Cultivating Secure Relating  1:00 – TU podcast and book updates 12:43 – Secure relating – how and why it is important and the driving force of the podcast 15:31 0 Book “Spoilers” – How to securely relate and stay centered with the chaos of the world  19:08 – Breaking down the three R healing spiral, starting with recognition  26:56 – Introducing the second R – reflection 30:54 – The third and final R – rewiring  36:40 – How can I be secure when other people aren’t? 38:36 – Understanding how true safety is a privilege  40:21 – Cultivating the rewiring process as a community  Pre-order your book, here!! Pre-orders are officially available!!!  Get your book here!! Click here to view today’s episode transcripts on Cultivating Secure Relating!! Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation   We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!          Support the show by supporting our partners and the sponsors of today’s episode!  AG1 is Ann and Sue’s go-to once-a-day drink that delivers all the basics of important vitamins, minerals, and probiotics. Go to www.athleticgreens.com/therapistuncensored or CLICK HERE.   Get 15% off with the code TU at oneskin.co   Go to Cozyearth.com/TU

Learn what the amygdala does and doesn’t do, how it’s related to memory and consciousness from the best, Dr. Joseph LeDoux This is a replay episode of our discussion with amygdala expert, Dr. Joseph LeDoux. View the official show notes for this episode here We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!    Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation   Mental Health Liberation is our charity of choice – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists.

For when talk therapy isn’t enough – how Attachment-Focused EMDR works and when to use it This week’s replay episode dives into the evolution and science behind Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) with Dr. Laurel Parnell, and the ways it can be used to help navigate trauma outside of traditional talk therapy. Click here to view this episode’s original show notes  We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!    Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation   Mental Health Liberation is our charity of choice – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists.

The intersection of poverty and mental health – intergenerational patterns that impact one another. Historical and physical context impacts your biological stress response as much as early relationships.   This replay episode covers poverty, mental health, attachment, stress & research on mental health podcasts with co-host Sue Marriott and Dr. Sharon Lambert. A year ago we connected with Dr. Sharon Lambert to take a deep dive into understanding our society and systems, and the ways that they can perpetuate harm to those who are struggling. Attachment ‘insecurity” is partly a manifestation of unresolved stress patterns in the child and, by extension, the family. Therapists usually think of stress as interpersonal and dyadic, but you can’t isolate individuals from context. We talk about context a lot when it comes to attachment – the circumstances or setting that helps to understand a process more deeply. Sue Marriott and Sharon Lambert discuss the unconscious bootstraps communities have that cause blame towards those who are struggling. “You can’t pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you have no boots.” – Dr. Sharon Lambert View the original show notes for poverty and mental health here!! We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!    Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation   Mental Health Liberation is our charity of choice – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists.

Weave together psycho-pharmacology, trauma, neuroscience, attachment, and internal family systems on this refresher episode with Dr. Frank Anderson and co-host Sue Marriott. Resources for IFS – Ep 214  Frank Anderson’s Website IFS Group Consultation Course – Training Opportunities Webinars on Various Topics – Training Opportunities The Arc of Healing Trauma – Frank Anderson’s Online Course “Internal Family Systems: Skills Training Manual” – Skills Traning Manual Frank Anderson’s Most Recent Book Check out our original show notes for this IFS episode, here! Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Mental Health Liberation is our charity of choice – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists.

Let’s start micro-dosing mindfulness – it takes less than 1 minute a day The idea of adding 30 minutes of extra meditation to our already busy schedules can feel overwhelming – but Jake Eagle has dedicated years to his research and found the mindfulness loophole. Awe is an incredibly powerful tool that can over time help us rewire our brains and build security within. Eagle is here to prove that awe is not only meant to be found in grand moments like standing at the top of a mountain or hearing your favorite musician live – but in the tiny fragments of our everyday life. Awe is accessible to us each day, and in this episode, Dr. Ann Kelley and Jake Eagle explore strategies like the “A Method” to incorporate mindfulness into our daily routines. These methods can help to ease the tension of the autopilot mode in our brains, reduce inflammation throughout the body, and equip us with the tools to have deeper, more meaningful connections. “Awe is the most important transformative experience of life. Awe is a lightning bolt that marks inmemory those moments when the doors of perception are cleansed, & we see with startling clarity what is truly important in life.” – David Elkins Time Stamps for Awe 1:03 – Introducing the practice of “micro-dosing mindfulness” 4:09 – How Jake Eagle started his research journey with awe 5:21 – Eagle’s, Amster’s & Keltner’s UC Berkeley study on awe 8:24 – Explanation of Eagle’s book 10:40 – How awe affects the body  15:56 – The “A” method and how to quiet the default mode in our brains 19:01 – Guided three-step A method with Jake  27:19 – Implementable practices for achieving awe in everyday life 28:47 – Utilizing awe as a practicing therapist  31:27 – Using awe to shift out of our defense physiology  33:27 – Jake Eagle’s analysis – the three levels of consciousness in awe 43:53 – Awe makes our worlds grander and ourselves smaller 47:00 – Eagle’s five patterns of strife 51:14 – Science behind inflammation and awe  Resources for today’s episode, Awe  Live Conscious – Jake & Hannah Eagle’s website & retreat information Hearthmath Institute – Tools, training & other resources for heart consciousness How to Change Your Mind by Michael Poland – Book referenced by Eagle about psychedelics Positive affect and markers of inflammation: discrete positive emotions predict lower levels of inflammatory cytokines  – Journal reference by Eagle about positive thinking and inflammation The Power of Awe – Official website for book and information info@thepowerofawe.com – Email to connect with Jake Eagle Click here to purchase!! About our Guest – Jake Eagle, LPC & Author  Jake Eagle is a psychotherapist, mindfulness instructor, and a fellow member trainer of the International Association of Neuro-Linguistic Programming. As the co-founder of Live Conscious, alongside his wife Hannah, Jake has a small number of private coaching clients. As a licensed mental health counselor for the past 27 years, now practicing as a meta-therapist, Jake recognizes the value of therapy and he also recognizes its limitations. His goal at Live Conscious has been to mentor people in what is possible beyond therapy. Jake is the author of Live a Conscious Life and The Power of Awe.    We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and who knows what else may come!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Click here to view Clarity, Healing & Purpose is Less Than a Minute Away, the Power of Awe with Jake Eagle – Transcripts Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Mental Health Liberation is our charity of choice – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists.

Conflict in relationships is inevitable – find out the ins and outs of repair for healthy relationships. We are back with relationship expert, Dr. Stan Tatkin to explore the inner workings of relationships from a biological and societal perspective, and his new book, In Each Other’s Care. All humans are complicated creatures and if we spend enough time with each other, it’s going to get tense.  That part is OK, but what happens after arguing disconnection or tension is what really matters. Sue Marriott & Dr. Tatkin take a deep dive into addressing conflicts, building secure attachments, and abandoning gender stereotypes for a more inclusive discussion. Follow along to explore healthy interdependence, couples’ purpose, and secure functioning. “A secure functioning partnership works on problems, not each other” – Dr. Stan Tatkin Time Stamps for In Each Other’s Care – Healthy Relationships  5:44 – Dr. Tatkin’s view on telehealth & virtual therapy 8:36 – How PACT approaches virtual therapy 16:05 – Understanding procedural memory  19:08 – Break down of insecure attachment  22:53 – What does secure functioning look like? 28:48 – Attachment in polyamorous relationships  37:47 – Exploring healthy interdependence in relationships 44:50 – An example of a couple’s purpose 53:41 – The importance of gender inclusivity when talking about relationships Resources for today’s episode, In Each Other’s Care – Healthy Relationships Stan Tatkin’s Website – Information about his practice, sessions The PACT Institute – Dr. Tatkin’s official website Relationships are Hard, but Why? – Dr. Tatkin’s TedTalk A free excerpt – from Dr. Tatkin’s new book @DrStanTatkin – Instagram account Dr. Stan Tatkin – Facebook Page @DrStanTatkin – Twitter account Dr. Stan Tatkin – LinkedIn account Dr. Tatkin’s newest book.       About our Guest – Stan Tatkin, PsyD, MFT Clinician, author, researcher, PACT developer, and co-founder of the PACT Institute.  Dr. Tatkin is an assistant clinical professor at UCLA, David Geffen School of Medicine.  He maintains a private practice in Southern California and leads PACT programs in the US and internationally. He is the author of We Do, Wired for Love, Your Brain on Love, Relationship Rx, Wired for Dating, What Every Therapist Ought to Know, and co-author of Love and War in Intimate Relationships, and the recent, In Each Other’s Care. If you enjoyed this one then catch our other interviews with Stan Tatkin.  He has a great take on applying the principles of relational neurobiology to real life – check it out.   https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu121-the-purpose-of-relationships-redefined-during-quarantine-with-stan-tatkin/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu12-if-its-not-good-for-you-its-not-good-for-us-interview-with-relationship-expert-stan-tatkin/ We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and who knows what else may come!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Click here to view today’s episode Transcripts  Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Mental Health Liberation is our charity of choice – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists.

Bonus Episode – Barbie isn’t anti-man – it’s anti-patriarchy “If you are a guy who doesn’t like the Barbie movie, it means you probably don’t like patriarchy.” Liz Plank The Barbie movie has sparked great controversy. While some claim it to be “anti-man” others view it as a strategic call out to the challenges both men and women face on a regular basis. We’ve learned to view the world through a patriarchal lens, so when it’s flipped only then can we see how those in power mistreat those who aren’t.  This is pro-anyone wanting secure relating and mutuality – all genders welcome! Ann and Sue are joined by Liz Plank to dive into the symbolism of the Barbie movie and how it applies to real life and secure relating. Listen now to explore patriarchy, masculinity, and the hierarchies of our society – and important steps we can take to build security through vulnerability for a more inclusive world. “Pro-patriarchy hurts everyone where feminism liberates everyone.” – Liz Plank Patriarchy reversed – Secure relating and Barbie Time Stamps for Barbie Movie  5:30 – Finding security comes through vulnerability 10:12 – Looking at the different layers of feminism in the movie 14:29 – Understanding matriarchy 20:22 – Symbols of vulnerability 25:16 – Break down of Ken’s characters’ correlation between dominance and lack of happiness 26:51 – Men and understanding their idealized masculinity 33:54 – Why the “all men are bad” narrative can be destructive to feminism 37:04 – Break down of America Ferrera’s speech 39:01 – Reimagining masculinity for growth 46:51 – Who is Barbie? 51:18 – Correlation between power and mirror neuron system disengagement 57:51 – Do men and women feel security in the same ways? 1:03:59 – Toxic invulnerability instead of toxic masculinity 1:08:22 – Looking beyond the gender binary for repair 1:10:52 – Reframing to understanding inclusive hierarchies & masculinity are not all bad About our Guest – Liz Plank  Liz is an award-winning journalist, international bestselling author and has been the executive producer and host of several critically acclaimed digital series at Vox Media and NBC News. She is the CEO of Liz Plank Productions and is a columnist for MSNBC and has been listed as one of Forbes’ 30 Under 30, Mediaite’s Most Influential in News Media, and Marie Claire’s Most Powerful Women, and was named one of the World’s Most Influential People in Gender Policy by Apolitical. Liz regularly appears on national and international television programs to provide a perspective on politics, gender issues, and reproductive rights, including The Today Show, The Daily Show, MSNBC, CNN, ABC News, Fusion, Al-Jazeera America, and BBC World. Through her activism and creative approach to journalism, Liz has made it her mission to elevate the voices of those who are often not heard. Before becoming a journalist, Liz worked at a community center for people with disabilities and was a researcher and behavioral science consultant at the London School of Economics, from which she holds a master’s degree in policy with an emphasis on global gender politics. Resources for today’s episode on the Barbie movie  Loneliness and Social Isolation Linked to Serious Health Conditions – CDC study on isolation “Man Enough – Dating, Consent, Boundaries & Respect” – podcast with Jamey Heath & Justin Baldoni Barbie Movie – Info, description, cast & characters Don’t Think of an Elephant!: Know Your Values & Frame the Debate by George Lakoff – Book referenced by Liz Plank Armchair Expert Podcast: Synced – New podcast with Monica Padman Airplane Mode –  Liz Plank’s Substack @feministafabulous – Liz Plank’s Instagram @lizplank– Liz Plank’s Tiktok Facebook – Liz Plank’s Facebook page For the Love of Men: From Toxic to a More Mindful Masculinity – Liz Plank’s Book Elizabeth Planks’ Website – Resources, bios, and important links https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu119-for-the-love-of-men-rethinking-masculinity-with-liz-plank/ We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and who knows what else may come!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Click here to view today’s episode on  Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Mental Health Liberation is our charity of choice – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists.

Explore attachment trauma with attachment assessment expert Dr. Carol George! We have the privilege of speaking again with Dr. Carol George, a pioneer in developing attachment assessments for children and adults. Based on her decades of experience identifying patterns she has a lot to teach us about what attachment disruptions really look like in real life and in therapy. This episode also explores concepts from her new book: Working with Attachment Trauma Clinical Application of the Adult Attachment Projective Picture System. Sue Marriott and Dr. George discuss ideas such as failed mourning, preoccupation with personal suffering and the current perspectives on what used to be called disorganized attachment. She co-authored the Adult Attachment Interview with Mary Main and created the Adult Attachment Projective Picture System, which is Sue’s go-to assessment for those looking to learn more about their implicit unconscious relational beliefs. With her decades of research, Dr. George offers unique and time-tested insights into applying the science of attachment and trauma. “We’re never trying to change anybody. We’re trying to capitalize on defensive strengths to create integration & to help people move towards the path to security.” – Dr. Carol George  Time Stamps for Working with Attachment Trauma & Pathological Mourning 00:00:56 –  Carol’s motivation for her new book 7:17 – A brief recap of the AAP 10:02 – What makes the AAP unique compared to other tests 12:31 – How to access your own AAP 20:17 – How do you talk to your clients about the results of their assessment? 23:52 – Understanding pathological mourning 25:25 – Introducing the terms failed protection and attachment trauma 30:05 – The relationship between failed mourning and dismissive attachment 31:24 – Exploring preoccupation with personal suffering 40:59 – Why does Dr. George not prefer the term “disorganized” 50:39 – “Anger is part of our biology” – Dr. George 55:28 – Techniques to help integrate past and present 1:12:51 – Discussing the Cowans family systems study Resources for today’s episode Attachment Trauma & Pathological Mourning AAPInfo@Comcast.net – Contact information if you’re interested in AAP Adult Attachment Publications – List of credible publications and learning materials Attachment Projective – Official website with training opportunities and resources Changing Families: A Preventive Intervention Perspective – Study by Carolyn & Phillip A. Cowan Attachment in Psychotherapy – Book by David J. Wallin, how attachment patterns feed into clinical work Ideal Parent Figure Protocol – Guided imagery created by David Elliott and Daniel Brown Click here to check out Dr. George’s newest book!! Related Therapist Uncensored Episodes w Dr. George – we’ve got so much to share!!  https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/using-the-adult-attachment-projective-aap-assessment-with-carol-george/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/attachment-assessment-unpacked-163/ If you appreciate keeping this excellent content free and available for everyone, please consider joining our Neuronerd community.  It’s starts at only $5 a month and gets you a corporate ad free podcast feed, bonus content and access to various educational and community opportunties.  If you join at the Platinum Level or above, you will recognized on our website and can get your website hyperlinked to ours, which will help your SEO.  🙂 www.therapistuncensored.com/join   About our Guest – Dr. Carol George  Carol George, Ph.D., is Professor Emerita of Psychology at Mills College in Oakland, California, and has been a pioneer in developing attachment assessments for children and adults. George is an internationally renowned attachment expert who was a co-director of the Mills College Infant Mental Health program for 21 years. Working alongside Dr. Main and Dr. Kaplan, her dissertation helped develop the Adult Attachment Interview. She is praised for her work as an author and editor, and is known for her contributions to attachment-based representative assessments like the Caregiving Interview, the Attachment Doll Play Projective Assessment, and “Disorganized Attachment and Caregiving,” alongside Judith Soloman. Her other contributions include “The Adult Attachment Projective Picture System” with Malcolm West. Although retired from being a professor, George is still incredibly active and stays busy being an assistant editor on the editorial board of Attachment and Human Development, as well as the Director of the AAP Training Consortium. Her dedication to education is still prevalent as she often hosts extensive clinical consultations with practicing therapists, graduate students, and other students of attachment. Join the Reading Pod! Want to take a deeper dive into this material? Join our upcoming reading pod where members read to engage in weekly virtual discussions with like-minded peers. Email Info@TherapistUncensored.com for more information and to be added to the official list. Click here to view today’s episode Working with Attachment Trauma Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Mental Health Liberation is our charity of choice – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists.

Wanting to learn more about attachment? This is the episode for you! This is a follow-up to our previous episode on recognizing secure states of mind. If you’re a regular listener, you know we talk a lot about attachment – but what is it exactly? This episode is a refresher course where we break down what it is, what it isn’t, attachment spectrums, embodied stories, and much more. Whether you’re more advanced in your knowledge of the topic or starting fresh – this is a great place to connect and better understand how attachment plays a role in our lives. “We are social beings, but we have to be social beings. This isn’t a choice, it isn’t an option. And our incredibly intuitive pre-programmed body knows that from in utero on – it’s in our wiring.” – Dr. Ann Kelley Time Stamps for Attachment Basics 1:17 – What is attachment? 4:29 – Why you should care about attachment 6:07 – Early attachment and its effect on our development 7:46 – Attachment is not the same thing as love 10:16 – Why we want to avoid attachment “categories” 15:29 – Example of embodied stories 20:48 – Understanding the protection system and connection system 26:22 – Utilizing curiosity to build secure attachment 28:01 – What is a coherent narrative? 39:10 – Recognizing patterns in your nervous system behaviors Resources for Attachment Basics  The Epidemic of Loneliness and Isolation in the United States – Surgeon General Dr. Vivek Murthy Calls for Action to Address Public Health Crisis John Bowlby’s Attachment theory – A summary of Bowlby’s theory Mary Ainsworth Strange Situation – A summary of Ainsworth’s theory & experiment If you enjoyed this one you’ll love these:  https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/secure-attachment/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu151-secure-parenting-dan-siegel-tina-payne-bryson-replay/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/secure-relating-not-the-same-as-secure-attachment-with-ann-sue-190/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu-149-modern-attachment-regulation-spectrum-an-integrated-model-of-change/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu126-modern-attachment/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/attachment-through-the-lifespan-alan-sroufe/ Click here to view today’s episode transcripts!! Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation   We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!

What is secure attachment and how can I grow my own capacity for security? We’ve covered the different protection and connection strategies – preoccupied (red on the spectrum), dismissing (blue on the spectrum), and unresolved (tie-dye), but today’s episode is all about what secure attachment actually looks like in daily life. You’ve experienced the continuum from red, blue, or even tie-dye, but how do you know when you’re in your green? A securely attached system doesn’t mean you’re never upset – it’s about having the ability to stay engaged while you have big feelings.  In this episode, Ann and Sue discuss what this can look like conversationally, conditions that promote a secure base in parenting, and how to check in with yourself and deepen your connection with others. Security feels like: ‘people are generally trustworthy, and so am I’ – Dr. Ann Kelley Time Stamps for Secure Attachment 2:06 – What does security look like? 2:39 – Reminder of red and blue meanings in attachment 6:46 – Sue’s Bigfoot attachment analogy 8:27 – A secure attachment base is not the same as feeling securely attached 9:19 – The importance of integration and security 12:23 – Example of “joining” in conversation 19:39 – Understanding the attachment continuum 27:40 – Interactive questions to gauge your security 34:47 – Insightful questions to ask peers about influence 37:11 – Sue’s physical queues to know she’s in the green 39:37 – The role of curiosity in your green state 43:18 – Tracking your activation exercise Resources for Secure Attachment https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu151-secure-parenting-dan-siegel-tina-payne-bryson-replay/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/secure-relating-not-the-same-as-secure-attachment-with-ann-sue-190/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu-149-modern-attachment-regulation-spectrum-an-integrated-model-of-change/   Secure Attachment & Recognizing Secure States of Mind with Ann & Sue – Transcripts Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation   We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!

The neuroscience of awe as an antidote to our stress response system In this series, Secure Relating in an Insecure World, we’ve covered tough topics head-on. It is, therefore, fitting that we close the series with something scientifically hopeful to help us stay in our secure selves so we can stay engaged and active as social advocates and not collapse in overwhelm. The science of this specific feeling of awe has garnered much attention for good reason.  Our guest today has spent decades exploring the sensation and documenting how to develop it in everyday life. We have all experienced these small moments that allow us to shift our mindset away from ourselves and into something so bigger. Co-hosts Sue Marriott and Dr. Ann Kelley discuss the power of awe with guest expert Dr. Dacher Keltner where they explore the science, the mystical and the hope of awe as an inspirational tool for collective healing. “You can be outdoors by yourself, you can be listening to an amazing passage of music, you can think about somebodywhose life really inspires you. You have this urge to connect, to be part of community, to be good to other people, to share with other people, to make the world and your community a little bit better – that tells us something fundamental about the DNA of Awe.” – Dr. Dacher Keltner Time Stamps for Awe 2:15 – What is awe? 3:31 – Physiology during moments of awe 8:21 – One of Dr. Keltner’s most striking discoveries about awe 8:57 – Understanding everyday awe 10:11 – The role of curiosity in awe 13:31 – The power of music 14:27 – The 8 wonders that bring us awe 21:20 – Collective effervescence 25:38 – Alan Cowen & Dacher Keltner’s experiential maps 27:36 – Awe in animals 32:16 – How awe can sometimes lead you astray 40:17 – Using awe as a tool for younger generations Resources for today’s episode on the feeling of “awe” DacherKeltner.com – Personal website full of research, books, videos, and other resources  Greater Good Science Center – Resource center with podcasts, quizzes, articles & videos  Science of Happiness – Podcast by the Great Good Network  AlanCowen.com – Visuals of mapping emotion You can purchase his most recent book, here!! About our Guest – Dr. Dacher Keltner Dr. Keltner is one of the world’s foremost emotion scientists. He is a professor of psychology at UC Berkeley and the director of the Greater Good Science Center. He has over 200 scientific publications and six books, including Born to Be Good, The Compassionate Instinct, and The Power Paradox. He has written for many popular outlets, from The New York Times to Slate. He was also the scientific advisor behind Pixar’s Inside Out, is involved with the education of healthcare providers and judges, and has consulted extensively for Google, Apple, and Pinterest, on issues related to emotion and well-being.     We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and who knows what else may come!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Click here for Awe – Dr. Dacher Keltner – Transcripts  Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Mental Health Liberation is our charity of choice – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists.

It didn’t start with you, but it can end with you – we can begin healing intergenerational trauma together Linda Thai, a Vietnamese Australian trauma therapist living on Native lands in Alaska, shares her journey to self-discovery as she navigates her own identity in the aftermath of her early childhood trauma. She shared words of wisdom about grief and developmental trauma as well as intergenerational and ancestral trauma, touching on the immigrant experience and family dynamics. Through various brain and body-based strategies (click here for a link to free videos she offers that are highly recommended), she reclaims the unresolved ancestral grief and trauma in her lineage and inspires others to incorporate historical awareness, including the impact of colonialism. “My parents are trauma survivors and I had no idea. And I’m living the aftermath of what that means. So with each stage of the journey or each layer of the unfolding – there are parts of myself that begin to open up to this new world” – Linda Thai  Time Stamps for Healing Intergenerational Trauma  1:31 – Linda Thai’s life journey 4:04 – Unpacking racialized traumas 6:17 – Understanding culturally informed psychology vs liberation psychology 19:41 – A new perspective on grief 28:56 – The responsibility of the community healing 34:16 – Building secure relating beyond human connection 44:48 – Interpreting the nervous system’s responses to excitement and aggression 49:25 – Leaning into your own feeling of emergence 55:48 – True allyship is a process Resources for Transgenerational Trauma  TRF Tuesday – Movement, Breath, and Sound for Transforming Grief (Collection) – 6-session program & resource guide (Sue highly recommends!) LindaThai.com – Website with resources, newsletter & contact information “The Body Keeps the Score” – Impactful book that helped Linda Thai recognize her trauma Dr. Kenneth V. Hardy – Author, Professor & Director of the Eikenberg Institute “The Loneliest Americans” – Book by Jay Caspian Kang About our Guest – Linda Thai  Linda Thai, LMSW ERYT-200 is a trauma therapist and educator specializing in brain and body-based modalities for addressing complex developmental and intergenerational trauma. Linda has worked with thousands of people worldwide to promote mindfulness, recover from trauma, and tend to grief as a means of self-care. Linda’s work centers on healing with a special focus on the experiences of adult children of refugees and immigrants. Her teaching is infused with empathy, storytelling, humor, research, practical tools, applied knowledge, and experiential wisdom. She assists internationally renowned psychiatrist and trauma expert, Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, with his private small-group psychotherapy workshops aimed at healing attachment trauma. She has a Master of Social Work with an emphasis on the neurobiology of attachment and trauma. Linda has studied Sensorimotor Psychotherapy, Somatic Experiencing, Brainspotting, Internal Family Systems, Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment, Havening Touch, Flash Technique, and structural dissociation of the personality, and offers the Safe and Sound Protocol, yoga, and meditation within her practice. Linda works on the traditional lands of the Tanana Athabascan people (Fairbanks, Alaska) with those recovering from addiction, trauma, and mental illness. She is passionate about breaking the cycle of historical and intergenerational trauma at the individual and community levels. Check out Intergenerational Trauma – Linda Thai Transcripts, here!!  We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and who knows what else may come!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!

It shouldn’t have to be so scary to address the elephant in the room – and we’re here to do just that on the environmental crisis It is easy to shy away from tough conversations about the state of our world. Leaning into defenses – like resisting the conversation – can feel like the most comfortable option, but these discussions are vital in healing our planet. A lack of security within ourselves trickles into our relationships and limits the ways we can make collective change. Dr. Ann Kelley and Dr. Anna Graybeal discuss the necessary steps to building security and embracing tough conversations within our communities. This conversation takes a scientific and therapy-based approach to guide us toward the big emotions around these topics and equips us with the tools to cope with uncertainties, and an opportunity to learn how to harness healthy discussions around the climate crisis. When we can address the resistance within ourselves, we can use that as fuel to unite and heal our planet, our well-being, and our relationships. “I think the only way to really deal with these tough feelings is to not be alone with them.” – Dr. Anna Graybeal Time Stamps 3:02 – Graybeal’s personal journey exploring climate crisis 7:51 – Participating in Citizens’ Climate Lobby 10:58 – Facing the awareness in our own activism 12:00 – Validating the resistance within ourselves 14:43 – Joining in the resistance 19:36 – Professor Katharine Hayhoe’s perspective 26:53 – Helping clients process climate crisis emotions in group therapy 31:09 – Climate conversation training group for therapists 33:58 – Introduction to the Good Grief network 35:44 – The challenge of making change as a collective 38:17 – Explanation of “greenwashing” Resources Citizens’ Climate Lobby – Nonprofit Advocate Group IPCC Report: Climate Change and Land – Special Report Climate Psychology Alliance – Climate Directory Good Grief Network – Non-Profit Advocate Group The Work that Reconnects – Resource Network All We Can Save Circles – Discussion Groups CA Institute of Integral Studies Climate Psychology Certificate Program – Application & Information Katharine Hayhoe –  Climate Scientist Website Katharine Hayhoe – Ted Talk – “The Most Important Thing You Can Do to Fight Climate Change” Tradewater – Calculate your emissions About our Guest – Dr. Anna Graybeal  Anna Graybeal is a Clinical Psychologist and Certified Group Therapist in private practice in Austin, Texas. She is also a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner. In 2012, she co-founded the Austin chapter of Citizens’ Climate Lobby, a volunteer-based organization working on climate change. Anna can be reached at anna@annagraybeal.com. Her website is www. annagraybeal.com. Check out Dr. Anna Graybeal’s Episode Transcripts Here!! We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and who knows what else may come!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!

Secure Relating in an Insecure World (SRIW) Series episode #3, Part 2 of 2 (203/204). This episode is Part II of Racial Trauma, linked with Ep 203.  To make sure you are paying attention 🙂 we are running a series, Secure Relating in an Insecure World, and this is Ep 3 of that series.  Today’s episode is also 2 of 2 in the conversation about racial trauma. Yea, we have so many ideas around here about going deep, and this wasn’t our clearest move having a series within a series, but we trust you all. You’ve got this!!  Also, it seemed wrong to make you wait 2 weeks for the rest of this 2 part conversation so we are dropping it in more quickly and will go back to our normal pace of every other week on Tuesdays from here.  We hope you enjoy it – it’s a good one! This a continuation of our previous discussion with Gliceria Pérez & Debra Chatman-Finley where we explore other lasting effects of racial trauma. From the challenges of parenting with an unresolved trauma history to navigating day-to-day as a person of color, they use group therapy as an opportunity to make space for women to vocalize their pain and build community. Gliceria and Debra share personal stories and real-life examples of microaggressions and discrimination and offer insightful ways white individuals can acknowledge their privilege and cultivate an inclusive community. “That angry part of you – it is just that, a part of you, it’s not all of you – it’s a protector. You don’t have to shy away from it.” – Debra Chatman-Finley Time Stamps for Racial Trauma Part 2 7:55 – Non-traditional aspects of their BIPOC group sessions 10:29 – Explanation of VCR: validate, challenge & request 11:49 – Challenges in validating anger 13:47 – Ways white therapists can create a safer environment 18:39 – Traumas effect on parenting 23:58 – Misconceptions about disassociating and attitude 27:26 – How these sessions impacted Debra’s personal healing journey 29:07 – Acknowledging trauma responses in the workplace 33:55 – Differences in racial trauma 40:37 – Attachment and racial trauma 46:18 – Explanation of Janina Fisher’s chart Resources for Racial Trauma Part 2  Therapy Wisdom – Online Training Trauma, PTSD & Disassociation – Certified Program BIPOCINGtherapists@gmail.com – Contact Information About Our Guests – Debra Chatman-Finley, LPC & Gliceria Pérez, LCS Debra Chatman- Finley is a Licensed Professional Counselor and National Board-Certified Counselor in private practice in Montclair, NJ. She is an Adjunct professor at New York University where she teaches Racial and Social Micro Aggression in Clinical Practice. She is the former Director of Clinical Services for a domestic violence agency, that provides counseling services for domestic violence victims. Debra earned her bachelor’s degree in Psychology from Seton Hall University and her Master’s degree in Counseling Psychology from the College of Saint Elizabeth. She is also a graduate and former Associate Faculty at the Multicultural Family Institute. Debra is trained in Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) and received her Certification in Traumatic Stress from the Trauma Center at the Justice Resource Institute in Boston, Mass. Debra’s study in traumatic stress strengthened her desire to integrate trauma and racial justice. She has devoted much of her practice and studies to the impact of race in the therapeutic process and the effects of racial trauma on POC, specifically, African American women, and parenting. Debra has also facilitated numerous workshops such as Racism, Culture, and Dissociation, Being BIPOPC: The Ongoing Challenges of Visibility vs Invisibility, Wounded Parenting: The Intersection of Complex and Racial Trauma in Parents of Color, A Therapist Path to Exploring Implicit Bias and Racial Trauma, Micro-Aggressions In Clinical Practice, Unmasking Race With Interracial Couples, Making the Invisible Visible, Beyond 20/20Vision: Examining Racism Through Trauma Lens. Debra and her colleague are in the process of writing about their non-Eurocentric facilitation of a support Group for Women of Color. She also provides Clinical consultation for BIPOC Clinicians around issues of race and trauma as well as other clinical concerns. Gliceria Pérez is a bilingual trauma-focused therapist who is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with a Master of Social Work degree from Fordham University Graduate School of Social Service. She has over 30 years of experience in social work fields of mental health, trauma, domestic violence, adoption, immigration, and child abuse/neglect. Gliceria has provided case management and therapeutic services to immigrant children, adolescents, and adults in various community settings, in-home, and schools. She is committed to providing high-quality therapeutic services with a social justice perspective. Gliceria maintains a private practice in New Jersey where she works passionately with Black, Indigenous People of Color as well as other individuals/communities who have suffered from mental health issues (depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc.) in addition to racial trauma. Before becoming a therapist, Gliceria was a Director of Residential Services at a domestic violence program where she worked collaboratively to improve the services to include underserved communities. Since 2015, Gliceria has been an Adjunct Faculty at New York University Silver School of Social Work, where she teaches Racial and Social Class Microaggressions in Clinical Practice. Gliceria is trained in Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing (EMDR) and has completed the Certificate Program in Traumatic Stress Studies at JRI (Boston, MA), the Certificate Program at the Multicultural Family Institute Program, and the second level of the Sensorimotor Psychotherapy for Trauma Program at the Sensorimotor Psychotherapy Institute (New York, NY). She’s in the process of completing the third level of Janina Fisher’s Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST) Program. Gliceria has facilitated workshops/presentations, which include: “Being BIPOC: The Ongoing Challenges of Visibility and Invisibility,” “A Therapist Path for Exploring Implicit Bias and Racial Trauma,” “Adelantar La Raza/Advance the Race: An Afro-Cuban American Experience,” “Micro-aggressions: Making the Invisible Visible,” and “Wounded Parenting: The Intersections of Complex and Racial Trauma in Parents of Color.” Gliceria is in the process of co-writing a book with Debra Chatman on their non-Eurocentric facilitation of a support group for Women of Color.   Give to Mental Health Liberation, TU’s charity of choice   Articles & Books Recommended by Debra & Gliceria  Anderson, C. and Gibson, P. (2016). White rage: the unspoken truth of our racial divide. Bloomsbury  USA. Degruy, J. (2018). Posttraumatic slave syndrome: America’s legacy of enduring injury and healing.  Joy Degruy Publications Inc. DiAngelo, R. (2021).  Nice Racism: how progressive white people perpetuate racial harm. Penguin Books. Fisher, J. (2017). Healing the fragmented selves of trauma survivors: overcoming internal self-alienation. Routledge. Niemann et al. (2020). Presumed incompetent II: race, class, power and resistance of women in academia.  Utah State University Press Gutiérrez, N.Y. (2022). The pain we carry: healing from complex PTSD for people of color. New Harbinger Publications. Hardy, K.V. (2023). Racial Trauma: clinical strategies and techniques for healing invisible wounds.  W.W. Norton & Company. Hardy, K.V. (2022). The enduring, invisible, and ubiquitous centrality of whiteness implications for clinical practice and beyond.  W.W. Norton & Company. Heiman, M. (2022). Learning to live in harmony with ourselves A primer for trauma survivors & those who dissociate. Mermaid Publisher. Menakem, R. (2017). My grandmother’s hands: racialized trauma and the pathway to mending our hearts and bodies. Penguin Books. Saad, L. (2020). Me and my white supremacy: how to recognize your privilege, combat racism and change the world. Quercus.  Sue et al. (2020). Microaggressions in Everyday Life.  John Wiley & Sons, Inc. View the transcripts for Racial Trauma Part 2 here!! We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  We are a Supporter, please be one, too!     Mental Health Liberation is our charity of choice – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists

Secure Relating in an Insecure World (SRIW) Series episode #1.   Debra Chatman-Finley LPC and Gliceria Pérez LCSW highlight their similarities and differences of being BIPOC women in the United States and encourage an open discussion about racism in our institutions. As they reflect on their careers and experiences, they provide perspectives on how they have navigated their identity and health amidst microaggressions and help us unravel the whitewashing of their cultures. From corporate America to working in child protective services, this discussion is full of painful yet common experiences of discrimination, intimidation, and blatant inequality against people of color – including in “safe” mental health spaces. “Being authentic is the key piece in working with people of color – because of our intergenerational traumas and all of the racism – we’ve had to learn how to detect whether we’re gonna be safe or not.” – Gliceria Pérez Time Stamps for Authentically BIPOC: Racial Trauma Part 1  1:32 – Gliceria’s background 5:03 – Debra’s background 11:12 – Gliceria’s anecdote about racial discrimination while working at CPS 13:12 – Debra’s experience with racism in a corporate setting 23:27 – Debra’s catalyst for switching to private practice 28:44 – How microaggressions affect your sense of self 30:49 – Understanding colorization 33:35 – Similarities and differences of experiences as a POC 43:31 – The importance of working on your racial identity 44:35 – Microaggressions in Everyday Life 50:50 – “Your story is as much in the room as your client” Resources for Authentically BIPOC: Racial Trauma Part 1  Therapy Wisdom – Online Training Trauma, PTSD & Disassociation – Certified Program BIPOCINGtherapists@gmail.com – Contact Information SEE THE READING LIST BELOW About Our Guests – Debra Chatman-Finley, LPC & Gliceria Pérez, LCS Debra Chatman- Finley is a Licensed Professional Counselor and National Board-Certified Counselor in private practice in Montclair, NJ. She is an Adjunct professor at New York University where she teaches Racial and Social Micro Aggression in Clinical Practice. She is the former Director of Clinical Services for a domestic violence agency, that provides counseling services for domestic violence victims. Debra earned her bachelor’s degree in Psychology from Seton Hall University and her Master’s degree in Counseling Psychology from the College of Saint Elizabeth. She is also a graduate and former Associate Faculty at the Multicultural Family Institute. Debra is trained in Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) and received her Certification in Traumatic Stress from the Trauma Center at the Justice Resource Institute in Boston, Mass. Debra’s study in traumatic stress strengthened her desire to integrate trauma and racial justice. She has devoted much of her practice and studies to the impact of race in the therapeutic process and the effects of racial trauma on POC, specifically, African American women, and parenting. Debra has also facilitated numerous workshops such as Racism, Culture, and Dissociation, Being BIPOPC: The Ongoing Challenges of Visibility vs Invisibility, Wounded Parenting: The Intersection of Complex and Racial Trauma in Parents of Color, A Therapist Path to Exploring Implicit Bias and Racial Trauma, Micro-Aggressions In Clinical Practice, Unmasking Race With Interracial Couples, Making the Invisible Visible, Beyond 20/20Vision: Examining Racism Through Trauma Lens. Debra and her colleague are in the process of writing about their non-Eurocentric facilitation of a support Group for Women of Color. She also provides Clinical consultation for BIPOC Clinicians around issues of race and trauma as well as other clinical concerns. Gliceria Pérez is a bilingual trauma-focused therapist who is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with a Master of Social Work degree from Fordham University Graduate School of Social Service. She has over 30 years of experience in social work fields of mental health, trauma, domestic violence, adoption, immigration, and child abuse/neglect. Gliceria has provided case management and therapeutic services to immigrant children, adolescents, and adults in various community settings, in-home, and schools. She is committed to providing high-quality therapeutic services with a social justice perspective. Gliceria maintains a private practice in New Jersey where she works passionately with Black, Indigenous People of Color as well as other individuals/communities who have suffered from mental health issues (depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc.) in addition to racial trauma. Before becoming a therapist, Gliceria was a Director of Residential Services at a domestic violence program where she worked collaboratively to improve the services to include underserved communities. Since 2015, Gliceria has been an Adjunct Faculty at New York University Silver School of Social Work where she teaches Racial and Social Class Microaggressions in Clinical Practice. Gliceria is trained in Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing (EMDR) and has completed the Certificate Program in Traumatic Stress Studies at JRI (Boston, MA), the Certificate Program at the Multicultural Family Institute Program, and the second level of the Sensorimotor Psychotherapy for Trauma Program at the Sensorimotor Psychotherapy Institute (New York, NY). She’s in the process of completing the third level of Janina Fisher’s Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment (TIST) Program. Gliceria has facilitated workshops/presentations which include: “Being BIPOC: The Ongoing Challenges of Visibility and Invisibility,” “A Therapist Path for Exploring Implicit Bias and Racial Trauma,” “Adelantar La Raza/Advance the Race: An Afro-Cuban American Experience,” “Micro-aggressions: Making the Invisible Visible,” and “Wounded Parenting: The Intersections of Complex and Racial Trauma in Parents of Color.” Gliceria is in the process of co-writing a book with Debra Chatman on their non-Eurocentric facilitation of a support group for Women of Color. Articles & Books Recommended by Debra & Gliceria  Anderson, C. and Gibson, P. (2016). White rage: the unspoken truth of our racial divide. Bloomsbury  USA. Degruy, J. (2018). Posttraumatic slave syndrome: America’s legacy of enduring injury and healing.  Joy Degruy Publications Inc. DiAngelo, R. (2021).  Nice Racism: how progressive white people perpetuate racial harm. Penguin Books. Fisher, J. (2017). Healing the fragmented selves of trauma survivors: overcoming internal self-alienation. Routledge. Niemann et al. (2020). Presumed incompetent II: race, class, power and resistance of women in academia.  Utah State University Press Gutiérrez, N.Y. (2022). The pain we carry: healing from complex PTSD for people of color. New Harbinger Publications. Hardy, K.V. (2023). Racial Trauma: clinical strategies and techniques for healing invisible wounds.  W.W. Norton & Company. Hardy, K.V. (2022). The enduring, invisible, and ubiquitous centrality of whiteness implications for clinical practice and beyond.  W.W. Norton & Company. Heiman, M. (2022). Learning to live in harmony with ourselves A primer for trauma survivors & those who dissociate. Mermaid Publisher. Menakem, R. (2017). My grandmother’s hands: racialized trauma and the pathway to mending our hearts and bodies. Penguin Books. Saad, L. (2020). Me and my white supremacy: how to recognize your privilege, combat racism and change the world. Quercus.  Sue et al. (2020). Microaggressions in Everyday Life.  John Wiley & Sons, Inc. Click here to view the Racial Trauma Pt 1 Transcript We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  We are a Supporter, please be one, too! Mental Health Liberation is our charity of choice – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists

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It’s time to start listening to the true meanings within our dreams Some dreams can feel insignificant but can be a portal into a deeper understanding of who we are and what we need. When we drift off to sleep each night, we are unlocking a world within ourselves that can help us find healing and take a step towards building security. With Jungian Analysts Deborah Stewart and Lisa Marchiano co-host Dr. Ann Kelley explores the significance of our dreams and the potential journeys of growth through a Jungian lens. “A dream that is not understood remains a mere occurrence; understood it becomes a living experience.” – Carl Jung Time Stamps for Jungian Dreams 2:56 – Historical information on Freud and Jung 6:53 – Jung’s belief that dreams help us look forward 7:59 – Introduction to the “Acorn Theory” 13:00 – The role of defenses in relation to dreams 13:52 – “Joseph’s dream” example 19:47 – Understanding ego in dreams 31:51 – Dreams tell us something we didn’t know 34:18 – Protecting ourselves from the “unknown” in dreams 41:30 – How to track your dreams Resources for Jungian Dreams About Carl Jung  Transformations of Myth Through Time – Joseph Campbell Book James Hillman’s “Acorn Theory” This Jungian Life – Podcast “Dream School” – This Jungian Life Podcast Training Program Lisa Marchiano’s Website About Our Guests Deborah Stewart is a Jungian analyst and Licensed Clinical Social Worker in Cape Cod, Massachusetts. She trained as a Gestalt therapist at the Cleveland and Cape Cod Institutes. She is a member of the Philadelphia Association of Jungian Analysts, where she co-chairs and teaches in the training seminar and contributes to the Association’s blog. She is the Director of Admissions for the Inter-Regional Society of Jungian Analysts and serves on the organization’s Executive Committee.   Lisa Marchiano is a writer, Licensed Clinical Social Worker, and certified Jungian analyst in private practice in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. She received her MSW from New York University and completed analytic training at the Inter-Regional Society of Jungian Analysts. Lisa is on the faculty of the Philadelphia Jung Institute. Her writings have appeared in Quillette, the journal Psychological Perspectives, and the Journal of Analytical Psychology. She has presented on Jungian topics across the US as well as in Europe. Lisa’s first book Motherhood: Facing and Finding Yourself explores motherhood as a catalyst for personal growth. It was published by Sounds True. View the episode transcripts, here!! We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today! By joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed and unique study opportunities. Click here to join!

What do dreams really mean? From weird dream fragments to unsettling nightmares, our associations to each dream can tell us a little bit more about our unconscious. Tapping into these deeper meanings can help us explore who we are and help us navigate from unsettledness in the dream back to security. Co-hosts Dr. Ann Kelley and Sue Marriott discuss the power of association in dreams and connect those to our inner working models. “Telling a dream is vulnerable act – it allows someone to step into your unconscious. ” – Dr. Ann Kelley Time Stamps for Dreams 6:23 – The power of association in dreams 11:25 – Ann’s personal example of repetitive dreams 14:39 – Sue’s personal example 17:42 – Working through the client’s dreams as a therapist 20:42 – The beauty of slowing down and going into the dream 23:01 – Re-dreaming the dream 30:02 – The importance of finding security within dreams 32:10 – Navigating reoccurring dreams 38:48 – Building security through remembering dreams Resources for Dreams Inside Out – Pixar Movie Using Imagination to Create Attachment Security with Dr. David Elliott View the transcripts for this episode here and for Internal Working Models with Ann & Sue here. We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today! By joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed and unique study opportunities. Click here to join!

What did Bowlby mean by “internal working model” and how true did it turn out to be? While it is mostly unconscious, our internal working models play a role in how we navigate our relationships with ourselves and others. Co-hosts Dr. Ann Kelley and Sue Marriott use neuroscience and personal narratives to help make this science digestible and applicable in our daily lives. “Internal working models are not a metaphor – they’re a real thing.” – Sue Marriott Time Stamps for Internal Working Model  5:53 – Definition of internal working model 9:58 – Most of the internal working model is unconscious 18:39 – Explanation of the term “wired in” 20:59 – Understanding how our brains are able to change and grow 28:50 – Recognizing dismissive characteristics 37:02 – Encouraging secure relating 43:50 – Sneak peek at TU updates and future episodes Resources for Internal Working Model Strange Situation – Mary Ainsworth Internal Working Model – John Bowlby View the transcripts for Internal Working Models with Ann & Sue here We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today! By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed and unique study opportunities. Click here to join!    Thanks for stopping by, we hope the podcast (and these show notes) offer quality education and insight into interpersonal relationships.  An entirely free way to support us is to rate and review the podcast on your favorite podcast player and/or share this episode with someone you think could use the quality content of the show!

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Pause to add consciousness to your next intention. As a certified Neonatal Therapist, Sue Ludwig has dedicated her life to not only the physical development but the emotional development of her patients. Ludwig brings intentionality to each moment by strategically working to regulate patients’ nervous systems during their time in the NICU. Her process focuses on the interconnection of the mind and body and aims to support the child’s development in vulnerable situations. She explains the importance of proper technique to avoid disrupting the nervous system and the long-term effects on neurodevelopment. Through her personal and professional journeys, Sue Ludwig has learned the value of being present in small moments to build deeper connections and experience lasting results. “Humans are different in that we’re meant to co-regulate, we are meant to be with a parent or adult. The way that we show up as parents and how calm we are – the better the babies are able to absorb our presence.” Time Stamps for “What Tiny Humans Can Teach Us About Adult Relating, with Sue Ludwig (197)” 1:11 – What do we mean by energy 6:05 – The power of bringing intention to energy 10:36 – Regulating babies’ nervous systems 14:09 – Properly performing the “hand hug” when holding small babies 17:58 – A proper “hand hug” for a more developed baby 20:50 – Importance of connection between the child and parent 21:38 – The “hand hug” technique for a full-term baby 27:54 – Co-regulation from the parent’s perspective 30:52 – Sue’s personal introduction to intentionality 42:31 – Embracing that development is never-ending Resources for  Sue Ludwig’s Website National Association of Neonatal Therapists (NANT) American Occupational Therapy Association (AOTA) National Coalition for Infant Health (NCFIH)  Hope for HIE – Website   About our expert guest, Sue Ludwig Sue Ludwig is passionate about improving the quality of life for infants who begin their journey in the NICU, and the professionals who serve them. She is a sought-after speaker, consultant, and writer. A licensed occupational therapist and certified neonatal therapist, she is president and founder of the National Association of Neonatal Therapists (NANT), where she uses a blend of clinical expertise, innovation, and leadership to support the advancement of this specialized field on a global level. Sue is the media expert in neonatal therapy for the American Occupational Therapy Association, a member of the steering committee for the National Coalition for Infant Health, and a medical advisory board member for Hope for HIE. She has received the Laura Edmunds Lectureship Award from UMass Memorial Medical Center, the Individual Contribution to Maternal and Child Health Award from the National Perinatal Association, and the Alumni Professional Achievement Award from Eastern Kentucky University. She has also been named a Graham’s Foundation Resilience Honoree. Sue’s book Tiny Humans, Big Lessons was published in March of 2022. Today, Sue lives in Cincinnati, Ohio, with her husband and a few dogs, and has two grown children. Click here to view this episode’s transcripts We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today! By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content, and very unique study opportunities.   Sponsors who help make these episodes free and available to all – please do support them to support us! With HelloFresh, you get farm-fresh, pre-portioned ingredients and seasonal recipes delivered right to your doorstep. Skip trips to the grocery store and count on HelloFresh to make home cooking easy, fun, AND affordable – that’s why it’s America’s #1 meal kit!  Go to HelloFresh.com/tu21 for 21 free meals plus free shipping!  Calm helps you stress less, sleep more and live a happier, healthier life. Their guided meditations, sleep stories, relaxing music tracks, and daily movement sessions are all designed to give you the tools to improve the way you feel. Over 100 million people around the world use Calm. Even if you’ve never meditated before, you’ll get the support you need to reduce stress, improve focus, and uplift your mood. If you go to Calm.com/TU, you’ll get a special offer of 40% off a Calm Premium Subscription, and new content is added every week. Dipsea is an app full of hundreds of short, sexy audio stories designed by women for women. They bring scenarios to life with immersive soundscapes and realistic characters. Discover stories about second-chance romances, adventurous vacation flings, and hot and heavy hookups. Radically inclusive, Dipsea has stories for straight and queer listeners, and 56% of stories are voice acted by people of color. Let Dipsea be your go-to place to spice up your me-time, explore your fantasies, relax and unwind, or heat things up with a partner. For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/TU   Thanks for stopping by, we hope the podcast (and these show notes) offer quality education and insight into interpersonal relationships.  An entirely free way to support us is to simply rate and review the podcast on your favorite podcast player, and/or to simply share this episode with someone you think could use the free resources on the show!

Elizabeth A. Stanley, Ph.D., is an associate professor of security studies at Georgetown University and the creator of Mindfulness-Based Mind Fitness Training (MMFT)®, taught to thousands in civilian and military high-stress environments. In 2019, Dr. Stanley published “Widen the Window: Training your Brain and Body to Thrive During Stress and Recovering from Trauma” – a highly praised resource known for providing tools to heal and thrive. We are replaying this discussion we shared with Dr. Stanley in early 2022 as a reminder of the power of expanding our windows of tolerance and building resiliency.   To check out the original show notes for Elizabeth Stanley’s episode, click here!   Resources related to Elizabeth Stanley Ph.D.’s Episode  Dr. Elizabeth A. Stanley’s Website “Widen the Window: Training Your Brain and Body to Thrive During Stress and Recover from Trauma” – Purchase “Mindfulness-Based Mind-Fit Training” – Online Courses “Optimizing the Caveman Within Us” – Dr. Elizabeth A. Stanley’s TedTalk Please join us today! By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content, and very unique study opportunities.    Thanks for stopping by, we hope the podcast (and these show notes) offer quality education and insight into interpersonal relationships.  An entirely free way to support us is to simply rate and review the podcast on your favorite podcast player, and/or to simply share this episode with someone you think could use the free resources on the show!

Contact Bolte-Taylor to find out how her work is being applied and sign up for certification. Since this podcast first aired, Sue Marriott worked with a very small group of people with Dr. Jill Bolte-Taylor in the first round of Whole Brain Living certification. Contact Jill Bolte-Taylor to find out how to participate. Learn about 4 major characters (skill sub-sets) in your mind as a way to understand neuroanatomy and how to best use the power of your whole mind. NOTE: For our private Neuronerd community, don’t forget to check out the deep dive series on Whole Brain Living.  Join to access it for as little as $5 a month at www.therapistuncensored.com/join. Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor is a Harvard-trained neuroanatomist who suffered a stroke that led her on a path to rediscovering her brain. At the end of 2021, we had the privilege of discussing the inner workings of the mind with Dr. Bolte Taylor. We thought this was the perfect episode to kick off the new year, full of eye-opening insights that could help improve the way you live your life.   To check out the original show notes for Jill Bolte-Taylor’s episode, click here! RESOURCES: Check out her TED Talk, My Stroke of Insight (join the inspiration of 28 million viewers!)  How to do a Brain Huddle by Jill Bolte-Taylor. Free Webinar Series and Contact Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor HERE  Hear more psychology and neuroscience in previous episodes: Episode 93 Polyvagal Theory with Dr. Stephen Porges Episode 110 Story Follows State (more polyvagal theory) with Deb Dana   Episode 117 Resilience Trauma and the Brain with Dr. Bruce Perry  Please join us today!  By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content, and very unique study opportunities.  Thanks for stopping by, we hope the podcast (and these show notes) offer quality education and insight into interpersonal relationships.  An entirely free way to support us is to simply rate and review the podcast on your favorite podcast player, and/or to simply share this episode with someone you think could use the free resources on the show!

Earlier this year, we had the privilege of speaking with Loretta J. Ross, a world-renowned human-rights activist. In 2022, she was acknowledged by the MacArthur Foundation for her dedication to social justice, human rights, and reproductive justice. As a well-deserving recipient, we couldn’t think of a better episode to close out the year. The holidays can sometimes feel draining and the tension from familial relationships can take a toll. Loretta J. Ross’s words of wisdom and “calling in” are a great extra resource during the season. View her MacArthur Foundation Award here Check out our original show notes for this episode, here!   And follow us on our social media pages to get the latest updates and information: Instagram, Youtube, Facebook, & Twitter! We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today! By joining as a Supercast premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper insights into select content, and unique study opportunities. Like what you’re hearing? A great way to help others find these resources is to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. This is an easy and effective way for those seeking assistance to be able to find it. Thank you so much for your support.

Many answers to our challenges are already inside of us. In today’s episode, find new perspectives on how culture and trauma affect our navigation within the world. Using bottom-up approaches, she explains how addictions are regulation strategies and provides tools to deeper connect to our nervous systems and ourselves. Join social workers Sue Marriott and Jan Winhall as they explore Winhall’s “felt sense” model, where she blends neuroception and interoception through a polyvagal lens. Jan Winhall is a highly experienced therapist and author who has dedicated her life to understanding and challenging dominant structures. From her years of group therapy and studying with figures like Dr. Stephen Porges, she has combined her findings into her recent book Treating Trauma and Addiction with the Felt Sense Plyvagal Model: A Bottom-Up Approach. “Felt sense is all about the capacity in the body to notice what we’re experiencing and to carry us forward in the direction of healing and growth.” – Jan Winhall About Jan Winhall  Jan Winhall, MSW, FOT is an author, teacher, and psychotherapist. She is an adjunct lecturer in the Department of Social Work at the University of Toronto. She is the director of Focusing on Borden, a psychotherapy and training center. Jan presents internationally on trauma and addiction. You can find many resources for both clinicians and clients on her website, including videos, PDFs (see below) and training opportunities. Time Stamps for the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model  3:47 – Tying the autonomic nervous system to addiction 6:02 – Breaking down bottom-up processing 8:13 – The relationship between interoception and neuroception  14:17 – Rethinking the term “sex addiction” 18:46 – Neuroception temperature example 21:16 – Introducing the intervening variable 27:53 – The six F’s and their branches 36:01 – The learning model of addiction 41:34 – Winhall’s perspective on polyvagal theory Resources for the Felt Sense Polyvagal Model  Treating Addiction & Trauma Together – Youtube Video Trauma and Recovery – Book by Judith Herman Jan Winhall Models 6 F’s client and clinician version Revolutionizing Addiction Treatment with The Felt Sense Polyvagal Model – Article International Body Psychotherapy Journal  Jan Winhall Website  The Conspiracy of Silence – Book by Sandra Butler The Politics of Giving Therapy – Eugene T. Gendlin, Ph.D. Stephen W. Porges, Ph.D. – Website Doug Braun-Harvey, Fellowship in Sexual Compulsive Behavior – Website Focusing on Borden – Jan Winhall             Other Relevant Therapist Uncensored Episodes https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu18-polyvagal-theory-understanding-irrational-threat-responses-in-relationships/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu93-polyvagal-theory-in-action-the-practice-of-body-regulation-with-dr-stephen-porges/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu94-the-science-of-self-regulation-breaking-down-polyvagal-theory/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu110-story-follows-state-investigating-polyvagal-theory-with-guest-deb-dana/ CLICK here for Jan Winhall Transcripts – Episode 192 We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today! By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper insights into select content, and unique study opportunities.   Thanks for stopping by, we hope the podcast (and these show notes) offer quality education and insight into interpersonal relationships.  An entirely free way to support us is to simply rate and review the podcast on your favorite podcast player, and/or to simply share this episode with someone you think could use the free resources on the show!

Discipline is about teaching, not punishment.  Children are sponges. They are constantly soaking up information about themselves, their relationships and their future.  And parents are the most powerful influences on these messages, so what we do really matters. Knowing this, sometimes we double down on trying to assert our wisdom, hammer a point home, or stop an unwanted behavior in it’s tracks. After all, we want to raise kids who are kind, responsible, caring, and independent. The trouble is, if we are acting out of fear, being fueled by anger and reactivity, it’s likely we aren’t having the impact we truly desire. For kids to learn, they need to feel emotionally safe and cognitively open. For this to happen, parents need to start by cultivating their own self-awareness and emotion management. In today’s episode, learn powerful strategies for parenting even during the most difficult moments. Ann Kelley, Kat Scherer and Elizabeth Sylvester discuss ways of integrating attachment and neurobiology into disciplinary styles that work and build balance in our relationships. Throughout the episode, Dr. Scherer and Dr. Sylvester highlight some of their most effective parenting strategies discussed in their recent book, Relationship-Based Treatment of Children & Their Parents: An Integrative Guide to Neurobiology, Attachment, Regulation, and Discipline.  Specifically, they dive deep into the “7 Essential Attachment Needs” for children’s optimal development, emphasize the importance of repair in relationships, and discuss the building blocks of secure parenting. “When limits are set firmly, but kindly, this fuels healing in the attachment relationship.”  – Dr. Elizabeth Sylvester Time Stamps for Relationship-based treatment 1:05 – Breaking down the title of their book, “Relationship-Based Treatment of Children & Their Parents” 4:43 – The integration between attachment and discipline 8:52 – Finding balance with a high-intense child 11:31 – Rethinking the way we view dysregulation 16:38 – The 7 essential attachment needs 24:58 – Recognizing the importance of “the repair” 35:47 – Discipline is learning 39:08 – The effects of “fear-based” discipline 45:08 – The role of “novelty and play” 51:49 – The power in empowered parenting Resources for Relationship-based treatment Relationship-Based Treatment – Youtube Channel Website Link – Relationship-Based Treatment The Nurtured Heart Institute – Website for the Nurtured Heart Approach  mindGAINS – Website for the Global Association for Interpersonal Neurobiology Studies Dr. Elizabeth A. Sylvester – Website Dr. Kathy Scherer – Website About Dr. Elizabeth Sylvester & Dr. Kat Scherer Dr. Elizabeth Sylvester is a Psychologist and Educator working with children, parents, and families in Austin Texas for over 30 years. She is a practitioner of the Nurtured Heart Approach ®, and has completed advanced training in this system.  Her specialty is providing parent training and child psychotherapy for children and teens who are highly behaviorally and emotionally intense.  In addition to her clinical work, Dr. Sylvester facilitates training for professionals and the public on parenting, and child and adolescent psychotherapy.  She has a particular focus on the interaction of relationships and neurobiological development with mental health and behavior. She has presented in a variety of settings including universities, professional organizations, mental health agencies, and community organizations. In collaboration with Dr. Kathy Scherer (a founder of Austin IN Connection), she created the Heart & Work series of writings, presentations, and workshops. Dr. Sylvester is a co-founder of Austin Child Therapy, an organization whose mission is to support the work of pediatric mental health professionals in Austin. Kathy (Kat) Scherer, Ph.D., MFT, C-IAYT is a Psychologist, Educator, and Author working in Austin for over 25 years. She is a psychotherapist in private practice and offers presentations on topics such as interpersonal neurobiology, family attachment, social-emotional development, and the application of yoga and meditation for stress management. Her presentations have been offered at a wide variety of settings including universities, professional conferences, community centers, and schools. Dr. Scherer is a co-founder of Austin IN Connection and its Family Matters program, both Austin area multidisciplinary organizations focused on emotional health and positive relational attachments. She co-hosts the Heart & Work Series of writings including two collaborative mental health blogs (with Drs. Holt & Sylvester):  Therapy Matters and Heart & Work of Parenting. Episode Transcripts – 192 – Lightly edited for readability

The intersection of poverty and mental illness – intergenerational patterns that impact one another. Attachment ‘insecurity” is partly a manifestation of unresolved stress patterns in the child and, by extension, the family. Therapists usually think of stress as interpersonal and dyadic, but you can’t isolate individuals from context. We talk about context a lot when it comes to attachment – the circumstances or setting which helps to understand a process more deeply. As Sharon Lambert says in today’s episode, you can’t “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” if you have no boots. Sue Marriott and Sharon Lambert discuss the unconscious bootstraps communities have that cause blame towards those who are struggling. There is no doubt that poverty impacts physical and emotional health, and thus lifting children out of poverty is a direct intervention in their well-being. Today’s session also explores fascinating research on how people use mental health podcasts – join us! “We still have these perpetuating cycles – it’s not the cycle of addiction, it’s the cycle of trauma. It’s not the cycle of poverty, it’s the cycle of trauma. We have to start looking at systems and asking ‘how do we break these cycles?'” – Dr. Sharon Lambert  Time Stamps for Poverty & Mental Health 1:05 – Poverty is one of the biggest predictors of depression 9:56 – The privilege of higher education 11:51 – Differing views of drug and alcohol use between the classes 22:06 – Cortisol levels of parenting in poverty 25:43 – Being aware of differing trauma responses 32:12 – Explanation of the “child benefit payment” in Ireland 39:18 – The risk, rewards & research of mental health podcasts 46:44 – Mental health podcast recommendations 1:00:58 – Trans community and mental health Resources for  Poverty & Mental Health  Dr. Sharon Lambert – UCC Research Profile & list of Studies Podcasts as a tool for enhancing mental health literacy: An investigation of mental health-related podcasts PDF of 2022 article cited “Her Dislike of the Words ‘Addict’ & ‘Clean'” – Youtube Video “Where the Light Enters” – Youtube Video The Blindboy Podcast – Episode The Two Norries – Podcast Twitter Profile About Dr. Sharon Lambert Dr. Sharon Lambert joined the teaching staff at the School of Applied Psychology in 2014 following a number of years working within community-based settings that provided support to marginalized groups. Sharon’s research interests revolve primarily around the impact of trauma on development, its link with substance dependence and mental health, and consequent considerations for service design and delivery. Sharon conducts research with community-based partners such as addiction, homelessness, criminal justice, and education organizations. The research looks at both primary psychological trauma (Adverse Childhood & Community Experiences) and secondary traumatic stress. The impact of trauma on well-being and outcomes is explored and the application of research and theory to service delivery is of significant interest. Sharon is a member of the Psychological Society of Ireland, Silent Voices Advisory Group and was appointed to the statutory Parole Board by the Minister for Justice. View the Transcripts Here – Dr. Sharon Lambert  We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today! By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content, and very unique study opportunities.   Thanks for stopping by, we hope the podcast (and these show notes) offer quality education and insight into interpersonal relationships.  An entirely free way to support us is to simply rate and review the podcast on your favorite podcast player, and/or to simply share this episode with someone you think could use the free resources on the show!

Navigate more securely no matter where you start. Learn to deepen interpersonal connections, heal trauma and even add enjoyment through secure relating! This podcast gives you truly deep dives into attachment and helpful tools to build comfort with intimacy.  Is it possible to have unresolved trauma and still be operating securely in various relationships? Absolutely!! You don’t have to be totally healed from years of therapy under your belt or a history of secure attachment to develop skills for increased intimacy and secure relating. This is something that anybody, no matter their history, can begin to learn. Channeling your inner awareness to recognize a heightened state of arousal or using visualizations to help stay in a regulated place helps tap into your right brain to connect with yourself and your humanity. Ann and Sue navigate their personal examples, self-regulating tips, breaking out of their defensive “competitive head”, and many more useful strategies to explore the ways we can move in the direction of secure connections. “Even if you have a history that leads you to trend toward preoccupied, dismissive or avoidant relating, with effort and practice opening up you can learn to relate from a secure base.” – Dr. Ann Kelley Time Stamps for Secure Relating vs Secure Attachment  3:06 – Introduction to attachment patterns 8:53 – Acknowledging the fluctuation of the attachment spectrum 11:56 – The definition of secure relating 27:09 – Using visualizations as a regulation tactic 29:01 – Abandoning your “competitive head” 34:13 – Utilizing the word “bookmark” 37:36 – The importance of preparing yourself for tough conversations 40:45 –  Implementing Gottman’s “soft starts” 42:45 – Navigating the coexistence of complex feelings Episode Resources for Secure Relating vs Secure Attachment “How to Fight Smarter: Soften Your Starts” – Gottman Institute Article Other Relevant Therapist Uncensored Episodes https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/whole-brain-living-psychology-neuroanatomy-spirit-with-dr-jill-bolte-taylor-164/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/thrive-during-stress-172/ Secure Relating vs Secure Attachment Transcripts  – Lightly edited for readability We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today! By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content, extra episodes, and very unique study opportunities Sponsors who help make these episodes free and available to all – support them to support us! $75 credit alert for our listeners!  Ann and Sue aren’t tech-savvy so they appreciate how easy it is to use and navigate Indeed.  It is the hiring platform where you can attract, interview, and hire all in one place. Find top talent fast with Indeed’s suite of powerful hiring tools like Instant Match, Assessments, and Virtual Interviews. Hate waiting? Indeed’s US data shows over 80% of Indeed employers find quality candidates, whose resume on Indeed matches their job description, the MOMENT they sponsor a job. Start hiring now with a seventy-five dollar sponsorship credit to post your job post at Indeed.com/therapistuncensored With MasterClass, you can learn from the world’s best minds – anytime, anywhere, and at your own pace. With over 150 classes from a range of world-class instructors, that thing you’ve always wanted to do is closer than you think. Get unlimited access to EVERY class, and as a Therapist Uncensored listener, you get 15% off an annual membership! Go to MasterClass.com/TU now.  Interested in even more content? Check out our full episodes and other bonus clips from the show on our Youtube Channel. Please like, comment & subscribe! Thanks for stopping by, we hope the podcast (and these show notes) offer quality education and insight into interpersonal relationships.

Hair-pulling, skin picking, and cheek, lip, & cuticle biting are self-soothing strategies that depending on degree can become body-focused repetitive behavioral disorders. Learn about a new attachment-informed psychodynamic model for treating these painful, shame-associated behaviors. While we may not be fully aware when we are pulling and picking, these sorts of unconscious behaviors can be an indicator of dysregulation. Outside factors such as our environment, upbringing, and various traumas can all play a role in these self-soothing behaviors. Stacy Nakell has been an active researcher and pioneer in this field, and has dedicated years to understanding and educating others on how to abandon shame and treat these behaviors. By blending attachment theory and neurobiological research, Nakell has helped rewire the ways in which we navigate these behaviors and brought forward new perspectives like viewing BFRBDs on a continuum and how these overlap with body dysmorphic disorders. Stacy Nakell’s book Treatment for Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors is the first to establish the theory and practice of a psychodynamic approach to treating body-focused repetitive behavior disorders. Follow along as Sue and Stacy discuss the misconceptions, treatments, and science to better manage these behavioral patterns. Stacy Nakell wants to help us talk about these shame-filled experiences “It’s important to look from an in-depth perspective… to really get into the roots and understand what’s driving the behavior” – Stacy Nakell Time Stamps for Healing BFRBDs  2:02 – Introduction to trichotillomania 7:26 – When these behaviors are considered a “disorder” 9:36 – The role of shame in repetitive behavioral patterns 11:56 – Are BFRBD’s considered self-harm? 13:33 – The overlap with body dysmorphic disorders 17:36 – Correlation between grooming and BFRBDs 21:08 – Perfectionism’s influence on BFRBDS 22:54 – The role of aggression in BFRBDs 31:14 – Metaphor of the stress cup 41:28 – Analysis of “psychic skin” Resources for Healing BFRBDs  Click here to purchase Treatment for Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors Stacy Nakell’s Website Stacy Nakell’s Blog Pop Culture Storyline Reference The TLC Foundation Zoobiguity – Barbara Natterson-Horowitz About Stacy Nakell  Stacy Nakell is a psychotherapist in private practice in Austin, TX. For the past 20 years, she has worked with people who struggle with body-focused repetitive behaviors. Nakell is a Certified Group Psychotherapist and provides workshops and institutes locally with the Austin Group Psychotherapy Society and nationally with the American Group Psychotherapy Association.     We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today! By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content, and very unique study opportunities.   Sponsors who help make these episodes free and available to all – support them to support us! $75 credit alert for our listeners!  Ann and Sue aren’t tech-savvy so they appreciate how easy it is to use and navigate Indeed.  It is the hiring platform where you can attract, interview, and hire all in one place. Find top talent fast with Indeed’s suite of powerful hiring tools like Instant Match, Assessments, and Virtual Interviews. Hate waiting? Indeed’s US data shows over 80% of Indeed employers find quality candidates, whose resume on Indeed matches their job description, the MOMENT they sponsor a job. Start hiring now with a seventy-five dollar sponsorship credit to post your job post at Indeed.com/therapistuncensored Dipsea is an app that brings you socially responsible sexy stories made by and for those who identify as women. Women often have sexual trauma on top of hurtful cultural messaging around sexuality, so finding a new product that can safely reconnect you to an important essence of yourself is very positive.  Dipsea promotes sexual and sensual health via imagination in a way that is safe, discreet, and respectful.  Reconnect to parts of you that might have been neglected, find things you didn’t know you were into, or just gain more confidence in the bedroom, whether you have someone with you or not.  Check it out totally free using our link – this gives you a full 30 days to explore what they are all about dipseastories.com/tu or just click HERE.   Thanks for stopping by, we hope the podcast (and these show notes) offer quality education and insight into interpersonal relationships.  An entirely free way to support us is to simply rate and review the podcast on your favorite podcast player, and/or to simply share this episode with someone you think could use the free resources on the show!

Do you have intimacy hiccups? Let’s find out. Ann and Sue were on a role w disarming defenses so while this one isn’t technically in that 5 part series, let’s call it a hanger-on. OK, an important question: how you make a tuna sandwich. We are sure your way is awesome but… Unless we think about it contextually, we believe our tuna technique is simply the “right” way.  This is true relationally, so how do we recognize interpersonal assumptions that we’ve never examined when they just seem like they are true and right?  When we make assumptions we literally don’t know we are doing it because it just seems true. While having assumptions can sometimes be considered a way to keep us safe, they also can be a strong influence on our “intimacy hiccups”. Assumptions block our view of seeing the whole perspective and equip us with a bias that can make our relationships difficult to navigate. Receiving feedback could become an assumption that you’re under attack or not worthy, and can heighten our defenses. Whether your “moral compass” may get in the way, your assumptions form from cultural influence, or you even feel avoidant of those tougher conversations and just assume the other person is on the same page – no matter which defense resonates with you, this episode will probably hit on something relevant for you. Ann and Sue challenge you to just reconsider so you can relate in the most mindful way possible and not accidentally project your way as the “right” way. “When you apologize… you’re not actually above or below the other person – you’re equal to the person. That’s what being truly empowered is, and that’s the assumption that we’re busting.” – Ann Kelley Time Stamps for Busting Assumptions – Episode 188 3:30 – Navigating “intimacy hiccups” 9:03 – The importance of dropping ego during feedback 10:10 – Healthy relating example in parenting 16:36 – Softening your front to allow uncertainty 19:34 – Roles of cultural differences in assumptions 25:42 – The power in knowing how & when to apologize CLICK HERE FOR BUSTING ASSUMPTIONS TRANSCRIPTS – Episode 188  – Lightly edited for readability We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today! By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content, extra episodes, and very unique study opportunities Good sleep is related to so many good health and mental health outcomes, but we don’t all have it easy when we try to fall asleep or stay asleep.  Nighttime rituals are important, try a cup of hot cocoa before bed that tastes good and is full of wellness ingredients that will help you sleep.  Beam includes 3rd party tested hemp free of THC, l-theanine, melatonin, and natural adaptogens to help your immunity. Get up to 40% off when you go to shopbeam.com/TU and use code TU at checkout.    Interested in more content? Check out our full episodes and other bonus clips from the show on our Youtube Channel. Please like, comment & subscribe! Thanks for stopping by, we hope the podcast (and these show notes) offer quality education and insight about interpersonal relating.

From navigating power dynamics to utilizing healthy aggression – this series covered many layers of our our natural defense systems. But how do we navigate something we don’t know is there? Ann and Sue are back with one final session to help shift our perspectives and disarm our defenses. This is the 5th episode in a series of 5.  You can start anywhere but if you prefer to start at the beginning of the series click here for Session 1.  Throughout this five-session series, we’ve explored different defenses, self-reflection, and navigation our own often unconscious internal protection systems. But how do we navigate something we aren’t aware of in the first place? In this episode, Ann and Sue recap the material we’ve learned and take a dive into suppression versus repression. Organizing defenses on a continuum can help us tap into our own emotions, and better regulate our responses to the triggers of the world. However, it is also important to detach the narrative of being “good and bad,” when it comes to our defenses, and recognize they are little parts of who we are that are constantly evolving. Whether it’s projection, appearing to be a “know it all”, power dynamics, ceding, or even being forgetful – we express our unconscious and conscious defenses in multiple ways. Join in exploring your own personal arsenal with curiosity and recognition of the care that drives it. “Some of these defenses are biological. Some are related to religion, culture – you name it. The stew that makes us human come to play in what we’re able to tolerate, take in, and allow ourselves to struggle with. When we can see it, we can then begin to reckon with it.” – Sue Marriott Time Stamps for Connecting with Your Subconscious – Episode 187 7:44 – Understanding the hierarchy of defense 8:22 – Reviewing the primitive defenses 8:49 – Suppression vs repression 14:55 – The role of “splitting” in our self-image 16:47 – Why healthy denial is essential 20:44 – Recognizing defenses are not black and white 28:24 – “Forgetting” as a defense 43:42 – The issue with compliance 48:35 – Definition of “ceding” in defenses CLICK HERE FOR THE DEFENSE SERIES, SESSION 5 TRANSCRIPTS – Episode 187  – Lightly edited for readability We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today! By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content, extra episodes, and very unique study opportunities   Dipsea is an app that brings you socially responsible sexy stories made by and for those who identify as women. Women often have sexual trauma on top of hurtful cultural messaging around sexuality, so finding a new product that can safely reconnect you to an important essence of yourself is very positive.  Dipsea promotes sexual and sensual health via imagination in a way that is safe, discreet, and respectful.  Reconnect to parts of you that might have been neglected, find things you didn’t know you were into, or just gain more confidence in the bedroom, whether you have someone with you or not.  Check it out totally free using our link – this gives you a full 30 days to explore what they are all about dipseastories.com/tu or just click HERE.     Zocdoc can help you find therapists and psychiatrists and doctors of all sorts and flavors that your family may need that are close to you, taking new patients, and even taking your insurance. Find the doctor that is right for you, and book an appointment, in person or remotely, that works for your schedule. Go to Zocdoc.com/TU and download the Zocdoc app for FREE. No more excuses not to take care of yourself – check it out and book now, many providers are available within 24 hours. Interested in more content? Check out our full episodes and other bonus clips from the show on our Youtube Channel. Please like, comment & subscribe! Thanks for stopping by, we hope the podcast (and these show notes) offer quality education and insight about interpersonal relating.

Aggression can be a good thing.  It seems backward, right?  Aggression is not a feeling – it is a behavior that is frequently associated with feelings such as anger, fear and even hunger.  It is a vital energy that propels us forward with an intention. Aggression can be both a positive or negative resource to help us navigate our personal goals, increase intimacy within our relationships, and to act as a catalyst for change when paired with desire. Follow along as Jeanne Bunker and Sue Marriott break down the negative connotations and provide perspective to harness this resource and help reclaim healthy aggression. We’re going to figure out how to use that aggressive energy – that life giving energy – to propel us forward. – Jeanne Bunker Aggression is a potentially healthy life force    Jeanne Bunker – internationally-respected group therapist and bad-ass martial artist Jeanne Bunker , LCSW, CGP, FAGPA, has had a psychotherapy practice in Austin, TX, working with groups, individuals, and couples since 1993.  Passionate about teaching and mentoring, Jeanne is a faculty member at the Center for Group Studies in NYC, a frequent presenter for the American Group Psychotherapy Association, has taught internationally (Russia, Romania, Spain), and conducts various ongoing training groups for clinicians. She writes about gender, women’s concerns, oppression, and Modern Analysis. To support her own growth and balance, Jeanne studies and teaches Tai Chi and Kung Fu within the Shaolin-Do tradition. Time Stamps for Healthy Aggression – Ep 186 2:47 – The definition of aggression 8:41 – Distinguishing between aggression and anger and other emotions 15:21 – Connection between aggression and desire 25:30 – The role of aggression in intimacy 30:25 – Creative and constructive versus destructive expression of aggression 37:51 – Example scenario: practicing healthy aggression 50:26 – How “call out culture” can be a defense Resources for Healthy Aggression, Ep 186 Jeanne Bunker’s Website The Center for Group Studies – NYC American Group Psychotherapy Assn – excellent resource for training in group therapy JLBunker@prodigy.net – Contact email – she’d love to hear from you Podcast on the science behind aggression – Huberman Labs CLICK HERE FOR DISARMING HUMAN DEFENSES WITH JEANNE BUNKER TRANSCRIPT – Episode 186  – Lightly edited for readability Other related Therapist Uncensored Episodes – or use the search button on our website to find your topics of interest Episode 156:  What actually heals in therapy with Dr. Nancy McWilliams  Episode 168:  Calling in the Call Out Culture with Loretta Ross   We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch salesto organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today! By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content and very unique study opportunities. Sponsors who help make these episodes free and available to all – support them to support us! FOR OUR LISTENERS AG1 is offering $30 off if you order by the end of September with our link. We all know that gut health impacts mood and brain function, but what the heck do you do to support gut health?  We’ve got you covered by partnering with our sponsor, Athletic Greens product, AG1.  AG1 is Ann and Sue’s once-a-day drink that delivers all the basics of important vitamins, minerals, and probiotics. As a TU Listener, Athletic Greens is gives you a free 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D and 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase. Plus, supporting our sponsors supports the show which supports mental health access, so go to www.athleticgreens.com/therapistuncensored or click HERE.  Like what you are hearing? Check out new videos of our full episodes and other bonus clips from the show on our Youtube Channel.Drop us a note there as well, we love hearing from you. Thanks for stopping by, we hope the podcast (and these show notes) offer quality education and insight about interpersonal relating.  To spread the word about secure relating it helps to rate and review the podcast on our favorite podcast player or simply sharing this episode with someone you think could use the free therapy!

Power can be associated with safety, but when misused it can also be a key indicator of a lack of emotional security and a common defensive move. We call it power over versus empowered with and it’s a tricky move because it’s so supported culturally we frequently don’t realize we are taking over. This is the 3rd episode in a series of 5.  You can start anywhere but if you prefer to start at the beginning of the series click here for Session 1 or here for Session 2. Join us for free therapy boot camp by going through this series and reflecting on how you relate and what patterns you might want to change interpersonally. When you unconsciously deem “power” as what keeps you “safe” in vulnerable situations, reflecting and rewiring on this dynamic can transform your connections. Human defenses are quite necessary to protect our nervous system and sense of self. The goal isn’t to eliminate defenses – but to learn how to regulate them, especially in relationships. Defenses can often feel triggered when there is an uneven power dynamic expressed in a relationship and can be influenced by outside factors like gender socialization, culture, or personal history. Tune in as Ann and Sue reflect on their own experiences, shame, and navigating power dynamics to form deeper connections. Shownotes at www.therapistuncensored.com/185 Join our private Neuronerd community at www.therapistuncensored.com/join. “Anytime we focus on the power-over position – it can’t be a safe connection. It communicates to your own nervous system that ‘You need to be more alone to be safe…’ It ends up being a self-perpetuating experience.”  – Ann Kelley Time Stamps for Power Dynamics – Episode 185 2:47 – Deep dive into the dismissive/”one-upping” defense tactic 9:57 – The role of gender socialization in this defense 14:41 – Addressing shame in relation to defense 24:36 – How our culture breeds narcissism and “one-down” defenses 34:55 – Interactive exercise for vulnerability 45:31 – Reviewing the “Three R’s” spiral CLICK HERE FOR THE DEFENSE SERIES, SESSION 3 TRANSCRIPTS on power dynamics – Episode 185  – Lightly edited for readability Related Therapist Uncensored Episodes  https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/call-out-culture-168/ We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today! By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content, extra episodes, and very unique study opportunities   Sponsors who help make these episodes free and available to all – please do check them out to support the show! ACTION ALERT – For a limited time only our partner AG1 is offering our listeners $30 off if purchased by the end of September.  This is in addition to the free 1 year supply of Vit D and travel packs.  What is AG1?  It is the shake Ann and Sue both drink every morning because it actually tastes good and it provides a power-punch of all the good wellness ingredients including for gut health! Redeem here  www.athleticgreens.com/therapistuncensored! $75 credit alert for our listeners!  Ann and Sue aren’t tech-savvy so they appreciate how easy it is to use and navigate Indeed.  It is the hiring platform where you can attract, interview, and hire all in one place. Find top talent fast with Indeed’s suite of powerful hiring tools like Instant Match, Assessments, and Virtual Interviews. Hate waiting? Indeed’s US data shows over 80% of Indeed employers find quality candidates, whose resume on Indeed matches their job description, the MOMENT they sponsor a job. Start hiring now with a seventy-five dollar sponsorship credit to post your job post at Indeed.com/therapistuncensored If you are the tent pole holding up support for other people, you may want to make sure they are protected should something happen to you.  Policygenius is an insurance marketplace that makes it easy to compare quotes from top companies like AIG and Prudential in one place to find your lowest price on life insurance. You could save 50% or more on life insurance by comparing quotes and options start at just $17 per month for $500,000 of coverage.  The licensed agents at Policygenius work for you, not the insurance companies and it doesn’t cost you a thing to use their services. Policygenius.com  Interested in more content? Check out our full episodes and other bonus clips from the show on our Youtube Channel. Please like, comment & subscribe!

Our friend the hippocampus! Neuronerds – this one is for you. What exactly is happening in our brains when we feel defensive? We go beyond the basics of the amygdala and the pre-frontal cortex and deep dive into the hippocampus to help us understand more deeply what is happening under the surface of our problematic behaviors. The hippocampus deep dive is part 2 of a 5-part series and you can pick it up anywhere.  However, if you prefer to start at the beginning, click here to go to Session 1.   In the last episode, we explored what Sue and Ann call the 3-R spiral of change, Recognize, Reflect and Rewire.  We also identified various common defenses. In this episode, Ann & Sue break down the different areas of our brain, and discuss the roles each can play in our defense responses. Understanding the critical interplay between the amygdala and hippocampus gives us more insight into our own behavior and sheds light on how our history can intrude today. They explain the concept of “coherent narrative” and discuss applying the 3 R Spiral to our relationships and personal healing. By blending neuroscience and these strategies, we can begin to sort through our unconscious defenses and rewire the ways in which we navigate our interpersonal world. “If you’re someone that needs to be right or needs to be giving advice – you might not recognize that’s your own defense. It feels familiar and good to you, but is actually cutting off your ability to attend your own vulnerability…. it’s not enhancing your relationality.” – Ann Kelley Time Stamps – the Hippocampus as a Defense Regulator   1:39 – What is a defense versus what is an adaptation? 7:46 – Recognizing the critical role of our hippocampus as a regulator of our defense systems 15:10 – Understanding coherent narrative – it’s an outcome of neural integration 25:27 – Using mindfulness in the defense process CLICK HERE for the transcript of: Our Friend the Hippocampus, Disarming Human Defenses with Ann & Sue Session 2  – Episode 184  – Lightly edited for readability Session 1 of the series starts here!  Other Relevant Therapist Uncensored Episodes (on Mindfulness) https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/find-your-focus-own-your-attention-with-dr-amishi-jha-177/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/its-not-communication-you-need-its-connection-with-guest-john-howard-178/ We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. If this show brings you and those you care about value, please consider joining us today! By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content, extra episodes, and very unique study opportunities.  Sponsors who help make these episodes free and available to all – check them out to support the show!  We all know that gut health impacts mood and brain function, but what the heck do you do to support gut health?  We’ve got you covered by partnering with our sponsor, Athletic Greens product, AG1.  AG1 is Ann and Sue’s once-a-day drink that delivers all the basics of important vitamins, minerals, and probiotics. As a TU Listener, Athletic Greens gives you a free 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D and 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase. Plus, supporting our sponsors supports the show which supports mental health access, so go to www.athleticgreens.com/therapistuncensored or click HERE.

Ann and Sue get into the nitty gritty by bringing you a short series of conversations on the uncomfortable truth about normal human defenses. Whether you’re receiving hard professional feedback or facing a challenging discussion in your relationship – nobody enjoys those cringy feelings of being told something you don’t know or agree with about yourself.  Often these moments trigger an automatic neurobiological protection response in the cells dedicated to protecting us from threat.  No human doesn’t have this problem at the most fundamental level – so this series will break it down for exploration. This is the first episode in a five-part series where Ann and Sue take a deep dive into various kinds of frequently used defenses. They discuss how to become more conscious of which state of mind you may be in – protective circuits or connection circuits and how to sort out what to do if in the armored range. The 3 R spiral of change is a process that can help you reconnect and reground yourself in moments of stress. Identifying the ways you display this discomfort is a great first step in creating that shift from our automatic default responses to a more connected state where we can be present within ourselves and our relationships. We all get defensive “Nobody’s died from a feeling. You’re going to have them – maybe you’ll feel embarrassed or ashamed, or unfairly done to.. but the feeling itself is only 90 seconds, after that it’s all story. Feelings are going to have a beginning and a middle and an end, so just ride them out and they will change, morph, eventually subside. You don’t have to ‘do’ anything. It’ll pass. You are gonna be okay.'” – Sue Marriott Time Stamps  2:52 – Three R spiral of change  – recognition, reflection, rewiring 9:46 – The last R: “Rewiring” 18:42 – The first stage of self-awareness, waking up and stopping our projections 26:54 – One of the key ingredients to self-awareness 28:53 – The difference between self-care and stubbornness 30:54 – Different types of self-awareness 36:00 – “Don’t do this” when receiving feedback 40:08 – Tips and recommendations for mindfulness CLICK HERE for Defense Series – Part 1 Transcript – Episode 183  – Lightly edited for readability We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales (very fun swag!) to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Neuronerd private community.  By joining as a Neuronerd premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content and first shot at very unique study opportunities. If we’ve provided value then please check us out, poke around, make sure you feel comfortable and then join us today!   Sponsors who help make these episodes free and available to all – check them out to support the show!  Zocdoc can help you find therapists and psychiatrists and doctors of all sorts and flavors that your family may need that are close to you, taking new patients, and even taking your insurance. Find the doctor that is right for you, and book an appointment, in person or remotely, that works for your schedule. Go to Zocdoc.com/TU and download the Zocdoc app for FREE. No more excuses not to take care of yourself – check it out and book now, many providers are available within 24 hours. Good sleep is related to so many good health and mental health outcomes, but we don’ tall have it easy when we try to fall asleep or stay asleep.  Nighttime rituals are important, try a cup of hot cocoa before bed that tastes good and is full of wellness ingredients that will help you sleep.  Beam includes 3rd party tested hemp free of THC, l-theanine, melatonin and natural adaptogens to help your immunity. Get up to 40% off when you go to shopbeam.com/TU and use code TU at checkout.  We hope you enjoy this content, if so please do leave us a rating wherever you get your podcasts so others may discover it as well.  Tk you for stopping by!

There is an entire world within each of us. While we come together to create one functioning human being – what is really happening internally to make it all work? Our entire existence is made of different systems – all collaborating to keep us operating healthily on a mental, emotional, and physical level. But what happens when the systems don’t operate smoothly? Just like any system, there can be conflicts that can make the process significantly more difficult. These “parts” are entities or “little beings” that live in our minds and manifest into physical or emotional reactions from traumatic events. Dr. Frank Anderson has spent decades of his life studying these parts and sharing his findings to help others utilize built-in resources like their “self-energy” to navigate their own traumas. Follow along as Sue Marriott and Dr. Anderson weave together psycho-pharmacology, trauma, neuroscience, attachment, and internal family systems. “Imagination is a very powerful neuroplastic agent. So the work that we do in IFS – which is very much imaginary – absolutely has neurophysiological effects on neural networks on the brain and on the body. It’s a beautiful intersection between psychotherapy and neuroscience, and we have more evidence to show the ways they’re linked together.” – Dr. Frank Anderson  Ep 182 – About Frank Anderson and IFS Dr. Frank Anderson is an author, psychiatrist, therapist, speaker and trauma specialist who’s spent the past three decades studying neuroscience and trauma treatment. He was a psychiatrist as the Trauma Center in Boston under the direction of Bessel van der Kolk, and was able to learn more about trauma while simultaneously continuing his quest of helping others heal. After meeting Dick Schwartz at a conference his career focus instantly came into full alignment, and he was able to integrate his knowledge of neuroscience and trauma treatment with Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy. Anderson was the former chair and executive director of the Foundation for Self Leadership, an organization focusing on IFS research and the expansion of the IFS model beyond psychotherapy and authored the chapter “Who’s Taking What? Connecting Neuroscience, Psychopharmacology, and Internal Family Systems for Trauma.” He is the lead trainer and consultant for the IFS Institute, an advisor to the International Association of Trauma Professionals (IATP), and maintains a private practice. He is passionate about teaching, enjoy providing therapy consultations and trauma informed IFS-related workshops throughout the world. Time Stamps for Ep 182 4:12 – Frank’s explanation of IFS 8:07 – Introduction to the concept of “self-energy” 17:27 – The neurobiology of PTSD & disassociation 30:31 – Frank’s unconventional views on attachment 41:46 – Key components of IFS that are essential for healing 46:25 – The IFS training process 51:57 – Finding an IFS certified therapist Resources for Ep 182 Frank Anderson’s Website IFS Group Consultation Course – Training Webinars on Various Topics – Training The Arc of Healing Trauma – Online Course “Internal Family Systems: Skills Training Manual” – Book Frank Anderson’s Most Recent Book Relevant Therapist Uncensored Episodes  https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu112-the-life-changing-science-of-memory-reconsolidation-with-guests-bruce-ecker-tori-olds/ CLICK HERE FOR FRANK ANDERSON TRANSCRIPT – Episode 182  – Lightly edited for readability We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today! By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content, extra episodes, and very unique study opportunities.

With an ongoing pandemic, constant political feuds, and the day-to-day stressors of life – finding peace in times of chaos can feel overwhelming. Peritraumatic growth is about meaning-making and managing overwhelming stress as it occurs. People often turn to therapists and other figures for answers, but who really has the solution to these ever-evolving issues? Especially for those who have experienced childhood traumas, seeking help may not feel like a natural process. Co-host Sue Marriott and Arielle Schwartz, Ph.D. take a deep dive into peritraumatic growth and posttraumatic growth to help equip us with the tools to work through our traumas, build different types of resiliency, and live a more fulfilling life. Dr. Schwartz recounts her journey to specialization with complex traumas and how neurobiology has been influential in her professional and personal growth. She utilizes an integrative, mind-body approach to therapy including relational therapy, parts-work therapy, somatic psychology, EMDR Therapy, and therapeutic yoga for trauma. “Post-traumatic growth is our belief that we can work through hard stuff and come out with an increased sense of depth, understanding, wisdom, strength – or whatever that gem is on the other side. But it’s not necessarily the hard stuff that makes us grow –  it’s what we do with it – how we metabolize it, how we process it.” – Arielle Schwartz Peritraumatic Growth Ep 181 – About Arielle Schwartz Arielle Schwartz, PhD, CCTP-II, E-RYT, is a licensed clinical psychologist, certified complex trauma professional, and Kripalu yoga teacher with a private practice in Boulder, Colorado. As an internationally sought-out teacher and leading voice in the healing of PTSD and complex trauma, she is the author of six books, including The Complex PTSD Workbook, Therapeutic Yoga for Trauma, and The Post-Traumatic Growth Guidebook. She is dedicated to offering informational mental health and wellness updates through her writing, public speaking, social media presence, and blog. Her integrative, mind-body approach to therapy includes relational therapy, parts-work therapy, somatic psychology, EMDR Therapy, and therapeutic yoga for trauma. She believes that the journey of trauma recovery is an awakening of the spiritual heart. Time Stamps for the Peritraumatic Growth Ep 181 3:58 – Introduction of “vicarious resilience” 9:44 – Peritraumatic growth versus posttraumatic growth 13:06 – Surprising aspects of post-traumatic growth 16:53 – Difference between secure attachment and having resilience 20:22 – Crafting your personal list of resilience practices 20:50 – Various types of resilience 32:51 – The role of mindfulness in peritraumatic growth   Resources for Ep 181 Dr. Arielle Schwartz Website  Tons of excellent resources Dr. Arielle Schwartz – Facebook Page Youtube Channel – Great resources here check her page out Link to Dr. Schwartz Full Book List  – Excellent references PLEASE TRY TO BUY YOUR BOOKS FROM LOCAL BOOKSELLERS CLICK HERE for Dr. Arielle Schwartz Episode 181 Transcripts – Lightly edited for readability We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today! By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content, extra episodes, and very unique study opportunities. Thanks for stopping by, we hope the podcast adds value to your day.

How to build epistemic trust to shift internal working models and create more secure relationships.  Learn the science of trust and attachment. Deciding who to trust in today’s world is especially hard – fake news, political polarization and societal strife amplifies our already on guard nervous system. When our trust has been broken, whether early in childhood or in our adult relationships, learning who to trust can prove even more challenging. In today’s episode, Dr. Steve Finn and Dr. Ann Kelley discuss the science behind epistemic trust and why many of us may have broken trust meters. They discuss how trust issues can create a mess in our relationship, whether we are the constant skeptic who resists taking in new information or we tend to trust blindly, without testing or holding healthy doubts. Together they provide deep and compassionate insights into these struggles and how they relate to internal working models. A fan favorite, Dr. Finn returns to bring his years of expertise to our listeners about ways to use science to build trust using curiosity and tools of mentalization, including our ability to handle healthy skepticism. “I think curiosity is infectious. When we bring our curiosity…really trying to get into someone else’s shoes, that creates an open door for epistemic trust” – Dr. Steve Finn The Science of Trust Ep 180 – About Dr. Steve Finn  Dr. Steve Finn is a founder of the Center for Therapeutic Assessment, a licensed clinical psychologist in practice in Austin, Senior Researcher and Director of Training at the European Center for Therapeutic Assessment at the Catholic University of Milan, Italy, and Director of Training at the Asian-Pacific Center in Tokyo, Japan. He has published 90+ articles and chapters on psychological assessment, psychotherapy, and other topics in clinical psychology. In 2011 Dr. Finn was awarded the Bruno Klopfer Award from the Society of Personality Assessment for distinguished lifetime contributions to the field of personality assessment. In August 2017 he received the award for Distinguished Scientific Contributions to Assessment Psychology from Section IX (Assessment) of the Society for Clinical Psychology (Division 12 of the American Psychological Association). In 2018 he was honored with the 2018 Carl Rogers Award for outstanding contributions to the theory and practice of humanistic psychology from the Society for Humanistic Psychology (Division 32 of the American Psychological Association). Time Stamps for the Science of Trust Ep 180 00:58 – Introduction to “Therapeutic Assessment” 07:25 – Importance of epistemic trust 08:45 – Two types of difficulties in epistemic trust 12:43 – How clients utilize control mastery theory 19:09 – One of the core values of TA – “curiosity” 25:14 – Spotting the difference between hypervigilant trust and hypovigilant trust 27:57 – Explanation of Fonagy’s three virtuous cycles 46:40 – Analyzing epistemic trust in our society Resources for the Science of Trust Ep 180 Therapeutic Assessment – Website The Role of Mentalizing and Epistemic Trust in Psychotherapeutic Relationships – Fonagy, P. Allison, E. (2014) Fonagy, P., Luyten, P., Allison, E. (2015). Epistemic petrification and the restoration of epistemic trust: A new conceptualization of borderline personality disorder and its psychosocial treatment. Journal of Personality Disorders, 29, 575-609. Gergely, G., Egyed, K., & Király, I. (2007). On natural pedagogy. In G. Csibra & G. Gergely (Eds.), Humans and culture: The origins of cultural knowledge and its transition mechanisms. Monographs of the Psychological Bulletin, 11, 107-125. Sperber, D., Clement, F., Heintz, C., Mascaro, O., Mercier, H., Origgi, G., & Wilson, D. (2010). Epistemic vigilance. Mind & Language, 25, 359–393. Fantini, F., Aschieri, F., David, R. M., Martin, H., & Finn, S. E. (2022). Therapeutic Assessment with adults: Using psychological testing to help clients change. New York: Routledge. Finn, S. E. (in press). From unresolved to earned secure attachment: The AAP as a powerful clinical tool in psychotherapy. To appear in George, C., Wargo Aikens, J., & Lehmann, M. (Eds), Clinical application of the Adult Attachment Projective Picture System. Routledge. (pre-print available from the author) Kamphuis, J. H, & Finn, S. E. (2019). Therapeutic Assessment in personality disorders: Toward the restoration of epistemic trust. Journal of Personality Assessment, 101(6), 662-674. Tharinger, D. J. Rudin, D. I., Frackowiak, M., & Finn, S. E. (2022). Therapeutic Assessment with children: Enhancing parental empathy through psychological assessment. Routledge. Dr. Steve Finn’s Book – 2007   Click here to view Steve Finn’s Episode Transcripts  – Lightly edited for readability Relevant Therapist Uncensored Episodes https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu51-conquer-shame-by-understanding-the-science-behind-the-feeling-with-guest-expert-dr-steve-finn/ By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content, extra episodes, and very unique study opportunities. We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today!  Thanks for stopping by, we hope the podcast adds value to your day.

Toxic individualism – sounds about right, doesn’t it? This episode explores individualistic thinking and will support you doing the tough internal work to give up power in favor of connection. Utilizing neurobiology, years of research, and professional experience, Terry Real and Ann Kelley break down the history of individualism and the toxic patterns it can hold in our society and in our relationships. Episode notes at www.therapistuncensored.com/180. “You can empower yourself and empower your partner – both in the same breath – but you have to move beyond this culture and learn how to do that.” – Terry Real About Terry Real Terry Real is an internationally recognized family therapist, speaker, and author. Terry founded the Relational Life Institute (RLI), offering workshops for couples, individuals, and parents around the country along with a professional training program for clinicians wanting to learn his RLT (Relational Life Therapy) methodology. A family therapist and teacher for more than twenty-five years, Terry is a best-selling author, a senior faculty member of the Family Institute of Cambridge in Massachusetts, and a retired Clinical Fellow of the Meadows Institute in Arizona. Terry has worked with thousands of individuals, couples, and fellow therapists. Through his books, the Institute, and workshops around the country, Terry helps women and men, parents and non-parents, to help them create the connection they desire in their relationships. Time Stamps for Toxic Individualism  2:43 – History and evolution of individualism 3:13 – The fusion of patriarchy and individualism 8:20 – Introduction to the “adaptive child” ideology 14:30 – Explanation of “soft power” 16:22 – The “golden rule” of relationality 24:07 – “Relational mindfulness” and how to apply it 33:55 – Three phases in RLT (relational life therapy) Resources Terry Real’s Website Terry Real’s Relational Workshop “How Can I Get Through to You?” – Book by Terry Real “I Don’t Want to Talk About It” – Book by Terry Real “The New Rules of Marriage”– Book by Terry Real Terry Real’s newest book – June, 2022           Click here for full episode #180 Toxic Individualism transcript (Lightly edited for readability) By joining as a Patron premium subscriber, you get a dedicated ad-free feed, deeper dives into select content, extra episodes and very unique study opportunities. We have pledged 50% of all corporate profits & merch sales to organizations that support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare.  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons. Please join us today!  Thanks for stopping by, we hope the podcast adds value to your day.

We often focus on being understood through words, but guess what? Words emerge from several deeper processes and can confuse, disconnect, and even unintentionally fabricate what’s going on. Learn what works and what doesn’t when trying to build closeness and connection with those you love. Tune in for this week’s episode as co-host Sue Marriott and John Howard discuss the power of tuning in under the words, widening our awareness of emotional communication, mindfulness and spirituality in secure functioning relationships. When we are connected on a neurobiological level, it opens the door for the other “fancier stuff” such as parenting, sex, travel, intellectual interests, romance, and money management. “The experience of being in a relationship is an existential one. It’s a spiritual event in people’s lives.” About John Howard John Howard is an internationally recognized therapist, wellness expert, and educator who uses the latest science to help couples have stronger relationships. He is the host of The John Howard Show, a wellness podcast, and the creator of the Ready Set Love® series of online programs for couples. John is a Cuban American whose first language is Spanish and thus prioritizes diversity and inclusion, drawing on multicultural influences from years of traveling and studying indigenous traditions. He has presented on the neuroscience of couples therapy at leading conferences and developed a couples and family therapy curriculum for the Dell Medical School in Austin. In 2019, he developed Presence Therapy®, an integrative mind-body approach to couples therapy taught to psychotherapists worldwide. John is also the CEO of PRESENCE, a wellness center in Austin dedicated to helping you achieve optimal physical, mental, and relationship health.     Join our Therapist Uncensored online community as a TU Neuronerd and help support getting this content out to the world. For deeper dives into topics and extra episodes, join our online community for as little as $5 a month and get deep-dive content, ad-free feed, discounts on anything we produce, and unique study opportunities.     Episode Time Stamps 1:38 – Psychobiological Approach to Couple’s Therapy (PACT)  principles 5:59 – How to read the interaction as a whole 15:08 – How does this methodology apply to consensually non-monogamous relationships? 18:17 – Key aspects of John’s new book, “More Than Words” 21:22 – What your brain is really looking for in connections 31:28 – Explanation of “inviting care” into relationships Resources John Howard’s Website  Ready Set Love – Online Couple’s Course Ready Set Love – Podcast Austin In Connection – Non-Profit Presence Therapy Website The PACT Institute Website John Howard’s Book, February 2022 Relevant Therapist Uncensored Episodes https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu12-if-its-not-good-for-you-its-not-good-for-us-interview-with-relationship-expert-stan-tatkin/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu121-the-purpose-of-relationships-redefined-during-quarantine-with-stan-tatkin/   Click Here to View Episode Transcripts

Through state-of-art science, learn how to reduce distractibility, rumination, and catastrophic thinking with 12-15 mins of targeted mindfulness training. Many of us struggle with hyper-vigilant minds that overwhelm our nervous system.  We then often overcompensate by habitually tuning out, causing us to miss important information from our bodies and our relationships. This becomes especially true under high stress, which can wreak havoc on our ability to attend and be present where it matters most in our lives. In today’s episode, co-host Dr. Ann Kelley talks with neuroscientist and author, Dr. Amishi Jha about her research findings on attention, concentrations and focus. Dr. Jha summarizes years of research findings on the neural bases of attention and the effects of mindfulness-based training programs on cognition, emotion, resilience, and performance. Through her work, she and her team have identified some of the most efficient and effective mindfulness skills that have will calm our minds, increase our focus and attention, and even improve our mood and sense of well-being. It literally changes the way our mind is wired. “… everything can feel like a caution sign in the world when you’re on high alert. That can lead to anxiety disorders, and is very common within PTSD. But most of the time, people don’t think of that as an attentional challenge. And I’m saying it actually is – changing how we pay attention may soften the costs of a hypervigilant mind …” Join our Therapist Uncensored online community as a TU Neuronerd and help support getting this content out to the world. For deeper dives into topics and extra episodes, join our online community for as little as $5 a month and get deep-dive content, ad-free feed, discounts on anything we produce, and unique study opportunities. About Dr. Amishi Jha Amishi Jha presenting at the PopTech convention (2010) Dr. Amishi Jha, Ph.D. is a Director of Contemplative Neuroscience and Professor of Psychology at the University of Miami. Prior to her current post, she was an Assistant Professor at the Center for Cognitive Neuroscience at the University of Pennsylvania. She received her B.S in Biological Psychology from the University of Michigan, her Ph.D. in Psychology (Cognitive Neuroscience) from the University of California–Davis, and her post-doctoral training at the Brain Imaging and Analysis Center at Duke University in functional neuroimaging. With grants from the Department of Defense and several private foundations, she leads research on the neural bases of attention and the effects of mindfulness-based training programs on cognition, emotion, resilience, and performance in education, corporate, elite sports, first-responder, and military contexts. Time Stamps 9:25 – What is “attention”? 10:09 – Analogy of the brain as a “flashlight” 20:33 – Inspiration for “Peak Mind” 27:16 – So why mindfulness? 29:40 – Hypothesis on the evolution of the brain 43:09 – Where/How to start implementing daily mindfulness Resources Dr. Amishi Jha’s Website “How to Tame Your Wandering Mind” – Ted Talk Amishi’s Book – “Peak Mind” Amishi Jha Episode – For transcript click here

Ever curious how attachment theory applies to polyamory? In a society seemingly dominated by monogamy – it can be difficult for those in a consensual non-monogamous or polyamorous relationship to find representation. Roughly 5% of the population actively participates in polyamory or multi-partner relationships, although we believe the number wildly under-represents this rich community. It is important to not only have representation – but also the same resources for support that monogamous couples receive. Psychotherapist and relationship expert, Jessica Fern works to change that. You may recognize her as the author of  Polysecure: Attachment, Trauma and Consensual Non-Monogamy where she dives into uncharted territory and extends attachment theory into consensual nonmonogamy. Tune in as Fern and co-host Sue Marriott explore the depths of consensual nonmonogamy, from a personal and professional perspective, and the importance of the application of attachment theory when navigating multi-partner relationships. “When couples come in and they’re struggling, they might say we’re dealing with agreement challenges, or we’re fighting more, or one of us can’t get over our jealousy …. those are typically symptoms of deeper issues.”  Jessica Fern   In her book, Polysecure: Attachment, Trauma and Consensual Non-Monogamy, Fern provides a fascinating perspective of attachment theory and how it operates within multi-partner relationships. As the world starts to become more open to relationship styles outside of monogamy, Fern strives to create a healthy discussion and cultivates opportunities for success on an individual level and within relationships. Utilizing resources like her six specific strategies, Ferns provides resources to heal past traumas and create more fulfilling, secure connections. This book is one of many we have featured in our Therapist Uncensored “Reading Pods.” “…it’s interesting to even think of sexuality as an identity. Cause for some of us it’s, it is very much an identity, for others – it feels very private and they don’t want to wear it as an identity. And some people don’t feel like they even have that choice to conceal it…”   Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for free when you sign up for an account today as a Therapist Uncensored listener. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only and by signing up through the following link: simplepractic.com/therapistuncensored   Time Stamps 6:02  Descriptions of polyamory, poly-romantic relationships 11:30 The difference between poly-orientation and lifestyle 13:03 The definition of solo-polyamorous 15:08 Secure Functioning 21:56 Primal Attachment Panic 23:50  The difference between enmeshment and closeness 34:04 “Non-Monogamy will expose the cracks in your relationship” 44:52 Attachment styles can vary between partners in Polycules 48:04 For those who have been highly traumatized, is BDSM an extension of their trauma or self-expression? Resources Jessica Fern’s Website Polysecure: Attachment, Trauma and Consensual Non-Monogamy “Secure Attachment with Self” 4-month Live Online Program  “Maybe Monogamy Isn’t the Only Way to Love” Article by Drake Baer – 2017 Therapist Uncensored Podcast Episode 42 – Sexual Vitality Refreshing Our Understanding of Sexual Health with Doug Braun Harvey (Part 1) Therapist Uncensored Podcast Episode 43 – Sexual Vitality Six Principles of Sexual Health with Doug Braun Harvey (Part 2) About Jessica Fern Jessica Fern is a psychotherapist, public speaker, author, and trauma and relationship expert. She specializes in working with clients from around the world to form healthier connections and to seek more fulfilling experiences. Jessica is the author of the book Polysecure: Attachment, Trauma and Consensual NonMonogamy, and is in the process of writing her second book which expands on the original ideologies. Along with her private practice, Fern provides resources and also leads online programs designed to better help individuals navigate hardships and find security within themselves. Check out her program: “Secure Attachment with Self” launching February 4, 2022 to take a step on your own journey to healing traumas and finding stability in such difficult times.   Join our Therapist Uncensored online community as a TU Neuronerd and help support getting this content out to the world. For deeper dives into topics and specific episodes, join our online community for as little as $5 a month and get extra content, ad-free feed, discounts on anything we produce, study opportunities and – in Feb 2022 we will meet live together after a series of private episodes breaking down Jill Bolte-Taylor’s, Whole-Brain Living. If you are seeing this afterwards, all this will be accessible plus new things we are finding interesting at the time.   Not ready to join us officially? No sweat. But if you are this deep into the shownotes we hope you have gotten something from the wealth of content in our episode library and we’d love it if you might leave us a rating and review – that is how the show grows, word of mouth and ratings.  TKS FRIEND! View Episode Transcript Here

Self-compassion has gotten a bad rap, it’s time to update your perspective on this key tool to security. We’ve been socialized to associate compassion with femininity, self-love, and gentleness, and self-compassion as a way of saying to be “nice” to yourself – basically a recipe to get walked on.  Dr. Kristin Neff has dedicated years of research to help understand, update and restructure the ideas around weakness so that all genders can harness the power of having a self-compassionate stance. Join Dr. Kristin Neff and Co-host Dr. Ann Kelley as they explore the world of fierce self-love. Embracing Fierce Self-Compassion “Women have lower self-compassion levels than men because we’re socialized to give compassion to others and to be self-sacrificing.  We feel less entitled to meet our own needs than men do.”  Kristin Neff Join our Therapist Uncensored online community as a TU Neuronerd and help support getting this content out to the world. For deeper dives into topics and extra episodes, join our online community for as little as $5 a month and get deep-dive content, ad-free feed, discounts on anything we produce, and unique study opportunities. About Dr. Kristin Neff Dr. Kristin Neff Dr. Kristin Neff is a pioneer in the field of self-compassion research, who has dedicated her life to understanding and educating others on their journey to fierce self-love. Neff earned her doctorate from the University of California at Berkeley and is currently an Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. In addition to writing numerous academic articles and book chapters on the topic, she is the author of the book Self-Compassion: The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself, along with her newest release – Fierce Self-Compassion: How Women Can Harness Kindness to Speak Up, Claim Their Power and Thrive. In conjunction with her colleague Dr. Chris Germer, she has developed an empirically supported training program called Mindful Self-Compassion, which is taught by thousands of teachers worldwide. They co-authored The Mindful Self-Compassion Workbook as well as Teaching the Mindful Self-Compassion Program: A Guide for Professionals. She is also co-founder of the nonprofit Center for Mindful Self-Compassion. Time Stamps  00:18 – Why Neff shifted her research towards women 1:13 – Fierce self-compassion 2:09 – How men are harmed by their inability to be tender 7:13 – How it connects to the sympathetic nervous system 11:28 – Neff’s 3-step model 13:59 – Research on self-compassion 21:22 – Biology or socialization? 32:18 – Why we are “afraid” to appreciate ourselves 50:29 – Positives and negatives of feeling anger 58:16 – Inner compassion Resources  Dr. Kristin Neff – Her main website loaded with free resources and MP3’s Center for Mindful Self-Compassion Mindful Self-Compassion Intensive Workshop The Mindful Self-Compassion Workbook Teaching the Mindful Self-Compassion Program: A Guide for Professionals Self-Compassion: The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself Fierce Self-Compassion: How Women Can Harness Kindness to Speak Up, Claim Their Power and Thrive Kristen Neff: Self Compassion Step by Step, The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself (Audio CD) Karen Bluth, forward by Kristin Neff: The Self-Compassion Workbook for Teens Jean M Twenge and W. Keith Campbell: The Narcissism Epidemic Living in the Age of Entitlement Self Compassion Test  Want more on this topic? You’ll probably enjoy these previous episodes from Therapist Uncensored Building Grit Through Self Compassion with Dr. Kristin Neff – Episode 23 Sue and Ann Explore Self Criticism and Internal Scripts – Episode 169 View Show Transcript Here Value this content?  Please take a moment to leave us a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts to help others discover this resource, and share with those you think can benefit.

Learn what the amygdala does and doesn’t do, how it’s related to memory and consciousness from the best, Dr. Joseph LeDoux.  Fun times, sister neuronerds! We are honored to introduce him to you all! Joseph LeDoux – The Amygdaloids In the previous episode, we covered how neurobiology affects your relationships to help prepare you for the incredible discussion we had this week with amygdala expert, Dr. Joseph LeDoux. Listen in as we discuss the amygdala, non-conscious versus unconscious, protein synthesis, the differences between fear and threat, and how it all applies in the world of attachment. “…that’s why I always thought of the amygdala as a non-conscious process – because it’s generating these behaviors non-consciously. Then cognitively, we interpret that to generate a narrative that makes it make sense in terms of who we are…”   Join our Therapist Uncensored online community as a TU Neuronerd and help support getting this content out to the world. For deeper dives into topics and extra episodes, join our online community for as little as $5 a month and get deep-dive content, ad-free feed, Ask Me Anything sessions, discounts on anything we produce, and unique study opportunities. About Joseph LeDoux Dr. Joseph LaDoux Dr. Joseph LeDoux – is a professor at NYU in the Center for Neural Science. He is also the director of the  Emotional Brain Institute at NYU and a well-respected author of many books including The Emotional Brain, Synaptic Self, and Anxious. Throughout his career, he has received many awards for his research including the American Psychological Association Distinguished Scientific Contributions Award, and the American Psychological Association Donald O. Hebb Award. In his free time, LeDoux is the lead singer of his band, the Amygdaloids. Time Stamps for Unpacking the Amygdala 1:05 – Introduction to LeDoux’s rat experiment 2:30 – Split-brain patients 6:45 – Story follows state explanation 8:20 – Introduction to the bell curve 12:34 – The relationship between the non-conscious and the unconscious 18:30 – Memory reconsolidation 19:05 – Protein synthesis 26:44 – Taming the Hippocampus 31:30 – Optigenetics 37:52 – LeDoux’s tips for emotional regulation 41:26 – Explanation of the new book – “The Deep History of Ourselves: The Four-Billion-Year Story of How We Got Conscious Brains“ Resources “Anxious: Using the Brain to Understand and Treat Fear and Anxiety” – Dr. Joseph LeDoux “The Emotional Brain: The Mysterious Underpinnings of Emotional Life” – Dr. Joseph LeDoux  “I Got A Mind to Tell You” – Psychology Today Article “The Amygdaloids” – Music Complete List of LeDoux’s Books  “Putting the ‘Mental’ Back in Mental Disorders” – Research Paper, National Library of Medicine   Relevant Episodes “Polyvagal Theory in Action – The Practice of Body Regulation With Dr. Stephen Porges” – Therapist Uncensored Podcast, Episode 93 View Episode Transcripts Here

Learning about relational science and applied attachment theory can help you keep your cool.  Stay updated in this episode learning latest about the science of threat. This episode on the neurobiology of threat is a warm up to next time, when we air the interview with the amygdala expert, Dr. Joseph Ladoux. Everyone responds to threat uniquely and each situation is different of course.  Ann & Sue discuss recent findings and how to apply the science to understanding how your brain works when it senses danger.  Inspired by a discussion with Dr. Joseph Ledoux (interview to be published in the next episode #174) – in today’s episode, Ann and Sue are covering their take on the latest research related to fear and threat in humans. Michelle Bobb-Parris/Getty Images Ann and Sue blend their own personal experiences and knowledge of people, mistakes, dysregulation and basic relational neuroscience to help improve your relationships and integrate healing & change within the body.  Follow along as they take a deeper dive into Ledoux’s research and break down his experiment measuring rats’ fear in moments of threat and how that applies to human responses in similar instances. They also cover the misconceptions about how the amygdala is often perceived as the “fear center” of the body, and why it’s important beyond caring about neuroanatomy. As always, they also share their own not-pretty version of figuring this stuff out in real life. (Transcript provided below) We are proud to offer this library of episodes free to the world and accessible. In order to help us do that, please join our Therapist Uncensored online community! You’ll get deeper dives into topics and extra episodes, an ad-free feed, Q&A sessions, discounts on stuff we may produce, unique study opportunities, and access to your like-minded peers!    Time Stamps for Neurobiology of Threat:  3:24 – Discussion about Sue’s interview with Joseph Ledoux 4:23 – Explanation of Joseph Ledoux’s rat experiment 15:12 – Threat responses are not amoral 29:01 – Ledoux’s implicit narrative 29:54 – The amygdala is not the “fear center” of the body 42:32 – The “third anchor”, memory consolidation 45:00 – Updating your own narrative Episode Resources for Neurobiology of Threat  Joseph Ledoux’s Article – “The Emotional Brain, Fear, and the Amygdala” Elena Paci, Charlotte Lawrenson, Jasmine Pickford, Robert A.R. Drake, Bridget M. Lumb, Richard Apps. “Cerebellar Modulation of Memory Encoding in the Periaqueductal Grey and Fear Behaviour.” eLife (First published: March 15, 2022) DOI: 10.7554/eLife.76278 “Discovery of novel brain fear mechanisms offers target for anxiety-reducing drugs” – University of Bristol, March 2022 View the Transcript Here! More like this from Therapist Uncensored: https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/whole-brain-living-psychology-neuroanatomy-spirit-with-dr-jill-bolte-taylor-164/ If you value this content, please leave us a rating and review to help others discover this resource, and share freely with those you think may benefit. We really appreciate it!

Guest Dr. Elizabeth Stanley knows stress reduction – she had developed a program used by the US military called Mindfulness-based Mind Fitness Training. Co-host Dr. Ann Kelley and Dr. Stanley discuss practical strategies that will help you build resilience, recover from trauma, heal and thrive. “…One of the biggest gifts we each give the world around us is our own self-regulation – our own presence. Only from a self-regulated place are we able to contribute to the collective…” Dr. Elizabeth A. Stanley has dedicated years to understanding her own traumatic experiences and extended her knowledge to others through research and teaching, including her work developing the Mindfulness-Based Mind Fitness Training (MMFT)® (utilized by the United States military). There are many factors that contribute to the way in which we manage stress. From early developmental experiences to the lessons we learn within our culture – how we process and manage our experiences during stress and trauma plays a large role in the way we navigate the world around us. Too often we go on autopilot and ignore the impact of stress and trauma on our body. This can have a devastating impact on us personally, but also on our relationships. Thrive even under stress “…we kind of divorce trauma and write it off as that’s what happens with weak people or people who can’t handle it. So people who are really suffering that way don’t really want to admit it to themselves or to anyone else because that somehow reflects on them that they’re broken or wrong or weak or powerless in ways that really isn’t true. Stress and trauma are actually a biological continuum, but we’ve divorced it this way…” Join our Therapist Uncensored online community as a TU Neuronerd and help support getting this content out to the world. For deeper dives into topics and extra episodes, join our online community for as little as $5 a month and get deep-dive content, ad-free feed, Ask Me Anything sessions, discounts on anything we produce, and unique study opportunities.  About Dr. Elizabeth Stanley  Elizabeth A. Stanley, Ph.D., is an associate professor of security studies at Georgetown University. She is the creator of Mindfulness-Based Mind Fitness Training (MMFT)®, taught to thousands in civilian and military high-stress environments. Stanley is also an award-winning author and U.S. Army veteran with service in Asia and Europe, she holds degrees from Yale, Harvard, and MIT. She’s also is a certified practitioner of Somatic Experiencing, a body-based trauma therapy.     Time Stamps 1:08 – Background on Dr. Stanley’s life 5:09 – The creation of her mindfulness-based training Program 6:16 – How culture plays a role in toxic/overworked environments 22:01 – The window of stress explanation 23:20 – Three pathways that can make the window narrow 45:49 – Three principles of mindfulness 47:57 – The biggest “Pay Off Habit” recommendations 56:20 – Implementing mindfulness regulation strategies into the military Resources Dr. Elizabeth A. Stanley’s Website “Widen the Window: Training Your Brain and Body to Thrive During Stress and Recover from Trauma” – Purchase “Mindfulness-Based Mind-Fit Training” – Online Courses “Optimizing the Caveman Within Us” – Dr. Elizabeth A. Stanley’s TedTalk Training your brain to thrive show notes

Writing courageous words can heal deep wounds.  Bibliotherapy, family reconciliation, mother-daughter bonding and the questionable power of memory are all covered in today’s episode with Laura Davis, author of the Courage to Heal and the new memoir, Burning Light of Two Stars. “…no one should ever sacrifice their own well-being to maintain a psychologically devastating relationship. The final option for reconciliation may be not having a direct relationship with the person, & instead being able to find resolution inside yourself – this can be the best choice…” How do we navigate tumultuous relationships in life? When do we know when to walk away, or to stay and reconcile? Most individuals will experience a tough relationship in their lifetime – sometimes with family, romantic partners, colleagues, or friendships. The type of relationships that feel unbearably frustrating, almost impossible to maintain – so, how do we find peace within the chaos? Author and teacher, Laura Davis is an expert in navigating these kinds of connections. In her most recent book, “The Burning Light of Two Stars”, she openly shares the raw feelings behind her decades-long relationship with her mother and the beautifully tragic ending to her life. From her childhood of abuse and young adulthood of healing, follow along as Davis and co-host Sue Marriott examine her journey through reconciliation as she becomes her mother’s caretaker. “I used to think that the opposite of estrangement was reconciliation, but actually – the opposite is what we have to do to get to a place of peace with the reality of this relationship…”   We are proud to offer this library of episodes free to the world and accessible. In order to help us do that, please join our Therapist Uncensored online community! You’ll get deeper dives into topics and extra episodes, an ad-free feed, Ask Me Anything sessions, discounts on stuff we may produce, unique study opportunities, and access to your like-minded peers!    Time Stamps for Courage to Heal author Laura Davis interview  3:14 – Davis’s personal journey 5:03 – The journey of writing “The Courage to Heal” 10:42 – Explanation of “The Burning Light of Two Stars” 13:28 – Book excerpt #1 from “The Burning Light of Two Stars” 25:45 – Book excerpt #2 from “The Burning Light of Two Stars” 39:45 – Finding reconciliation and healing 50:30 – How writing can be a tool for healing & transformation 59:21 – Secure priming Resources *Special Bibliotherapy for Therapist Uncensored Listeners* Laura Davis’s Website & Workshops “The Courage to Heal” – Book by Ellen Bass & Laura Davis “The Burning Light of Two Stars” – Book by Laura Davis “I Never Told Anyone” – Book by Ellen Bass Link to the first 5 Chapters of “The Burning Light of Two Stars”  The audiobook of “The Burning Light of Two Stars” – Read by Laura Davis Signed copies of “The Burning Light of Two Stars” Travel to Tuscany with Laura Davis!  Click the book you’d like to purchase:  Laura’s riveting new memoir examines the endurance of mother-daughter love, how memory protects and betrays us, and the determination it takes to fulfill a promise when ghosts from the past come knocking   MORE FROM THERAPIST UNCENSORED: TU112: The Life-Changing Science of Memory Reconsolidation with Guests Bruce Ecker & Tori Olds(Opens in a new browser tab) Find full transcript in the podcast player.  And follow us on our social media pages to get the latest updates and information: Youtube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter & LinkedIn! Like what you’re hearing? A great way to help others find these resources is to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. This is an easy and effective way for those seeking assistance to be able to find it. Thank you so much for your support.

When talk therapy isn’t enough How Attachment-Focused EMDR works and when to use it While talk therapy can be an incredible resource for working through and healing traumas – sometimes it is not enough. The theory around trauma is that when it occurs it “gets locked in the nervous system” in the form of fragmented thoughts, feelings, and bodily sensations. This makes true healing difficult.  Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, also known as EMDR, is an evolving science that utilizes bilateral stimulation to help connect the left side of the brain to the right in order to form more cohesive, healing thoughts to better support the healing process. Dr. Laurel Parnell is a leading expert in EMDR, and uses her vast knowledge to help train thousands of clinicians worldwide to spread the safe science. Using the “lighting it up and linking it up” methodology combined with the Four Foundational Resources, Parnell helps individuals suffering from PTSD and other obstacles better navigate their world and release some of the tension stored within the body and mind. Tune in for this episode as co-host Dr. Ann Kelley and Dr. Parnell take a deep dive into the evolution and successes of EMDR.   “…people can spend years in talk therapy working through some horrible accident, and they’re not getting better because the therapy isn’t reaching where the trauma’s stored and it’s not helping with that integration of the nonverbal experience…” Join our Therapist Uncensored online community as a TU Neuronerd and help support getting this content out to the world. For deeper dives into topics and extra episodes, join our online community for as little as $5 a month and get deep-dive content, ad-free feed, Ask Me Anything sessions, discounts on anything we produce and unique study opportunities.  About Laurel Parnell Clinical psychologist and director of the Parnell Institute for Attachment-Focused EMDR, Dr. Laurel Parnell is a leading expert on Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR). She has served on the faculty of the California Institute for Integral Studies in San Francisco, as well as at John F. Kennedy University. Parnell is also the co-director of the non-profit Trauma Assistance Program-International, “TAP-IN”. She has dedicated her life to training thousands of clinicians both nationally and internationally and is the author of six books on EMDR.   Time Stamps 1:11 – What we do with EMDR 5:44 – Introducing the Four Foundational Resources 12:30 – Explanation of what Standard EMDR looks like 16:05 – Breaking Down Bilateral Stimulation 21:12 – The Connection between REM Sleep & EMDR 27:49 – “Little T” Traumas and “Big T” Traumas 29:57 – “Creating Ideal Communities” for Healing 35:22 – Integrating Attachment-Focused EMDR 46:53 – How to Integrate EMDR Virtually 53:04 – Making Modifications to the Practice 1:06:55 – Understanding EMDR Timelines Resources Dr. Laurel Parnell’s Website Parnell Institute EMDR Website EMDR Training Workshops Parnell Institute Facebook Group  Find an EMDR Trained Therapist  Christie Sprowl’s Website – EMDR Expert Dr. Francine Shapiro’s Website “Inside the Mind of Dr. Dan Siegel” – Therapist Uncensored Podcast Laurel Parnell’s Books (Click the Image to Purchase)         Not ready to join us as an official Neuronerd? We respect that, no sweat, just glad you know it’s an option. But if you are this deep into the show notes we hope you have gotten something from the wealth of content in our episode library and we’d love it if you might share it with someone you think could use it.  The way new people find us is mainly word of mouth, so leaving a rating or review – that is how the good content finds its way across the world. Thanks, friend!

Self-criticism is such a practiced skill it could be an Olympic sport – style points, consistency, creativity.  Learn more about this common practice and what it may mean about your internal working script. Hearing yourself criticized impacts your nervous system no matter if the voice is your own or someone else’s. self attack can be brutal Self-criticism, unfortunately, is something that most individuals can deeply identify with. Not only does it affect our own self-esteem, but it also can take a heavy toll on our relationships and the ways in which we navigate the world. But can self-criticism look different for different attachment styles? What outer influences contribute to our critical tendencies? You will want to tune in this week, as Ann and Sue answer these (and many more) questions, by taking a deep dive into self-criticism as it relates to different attachment styles. Learn more about the detrimental role our cultures and societal pressures play in our thoughts, and how we can help build healthier patterns through secure attachment priming. We are proud to offer this library of episodes free to the world and accessible. In order to help us do that, please join our Therapist Uncensored online community! You’ll get deeper dives into topic and extra episodes, an ad-free feed, Ask Me Anything sessions, discounts on stuff we may produce, unique study opportunities, and access to your like-minded peers!  Time Stamps 19:28 – Explanation of how self-criticism can activate a threat response 20:31 –  How avoidant attachment/dismissive styles can differ in self-criticism 23:42 – Pleasure and soothing and the roles they can play in self-criticism 28:50 – Preoccupied self-criticism 29:24 – Society & culture’s role in criticism 37:10 – Explanation of secure attachment priming Resources “Attachment Styles Modulate Neural Markers of Threat and Imagery when Engaging in Self-criticism” Article “Music, Emotion, and Therapy – Interview with Bob Schneider” – Therapist Uncensored, Episode 45 Therapist Uncensored Episode Transcript Email Download New Tab Ann Kelley: Hey, Sue Marriott. I am happy to be back in the studio with you. Sue Marriott: Absolutely. It's so nice to actually be recording together. We've been doing so many crazy things separately and yeah, it's fun. So let's do this, Ann Kelley: let's do some announcements. You know how we've been talking about how important it is at Therapist Uncensored that we build community, right? We are really excited. We've been hinting at this suggesting it, but we're going to do it. We're going to have a live meetup here in Austin, Texas, and we are going to encourage live meetups, wherever Therapist Uncensored reaches. Sue Marriott: Yeah. So if you're a listener on April 22nd, this is all going to happen simultaneously. We've already had a couple of people sign up to host in their local community. So wherever you're hearing this from our idea here is. We're going to be announcing like, so somebody wants to host in Boise, Idaho, or in Calcutta or in Sydney, Australia, wherever you're listening from, you just raise your hand, let us know. And we will announce it. Basically, all you would have to do is find a location. COVID, you know, friendly location for people to gather and, you know, everybody will pay for themselves. Things like that. No big deal. But. There's probably, there may be other listeners of this podcast near you. And especially if you're in a Metro area, New York, you guys are one of our highest listeners, Los Angeles, of course, the big hubs. So if somebody will just raise their hand and say, Hey, let's meet at you know, sour duck, uh, you know, and, uh, and you just need a big patio or something. Then the notion is that anybody that's also listening to the podcast, that's maybe a neighbor of yours. You guys already have a ton in common, right? Ann Kelley: Like not everybody listens to a neuro nerd kind of podcast. That's for sure. So if you are interested in this, you have some commonalities. That's what we assumed. So even if you just have one other person in your community, that's enough. It doesn't have to be a huge one. We want everybody in the same day to gather and talk amongst yourself, get to know you have the community have connections. So we're going to do it in Austin, Texas on April 22nd at four o'clock. And um, we have few, I know we have a host volunteer in Milwaukee. We have several host, volunteers already, Sue Marriott: Bozeman, Montana. Ann Kelley: Oh, that's true. And I think one in Australia. And so I'm not sure which city yet, but I think what we are going to do if you volunteered to be a host, you're not gonna have to pay for anything. But I think we are going to send you a Therapist Uncensored t-shirt, so when people get to your location, they'll know where to find you. Sue Marriott: And just a thank you. Ann Kelley: And just to thank you for doing it. So all you have to do to host again, is send us your name. You could do that at info@therapistuncensored.com and just say, Hey, I'd love to be a host and we will. start coordinating that altogether. Sue Marriott: That's right. And so if you're interested in attending, if there's one in your area and you want to attend, we're going to be funneling you to our Facebook group, and we'll have an event on the Facebook group that will be about this. And so in the chatter, under the event, you'll, you know, you can say, Hey, is there anybody in the, this region in the Southeast or wherever? So, um, yeah, we'll see how it goes. It might be that zero people show up, but that's cool. That's fine. Ann Kelley: That's fine. But hopefully in Austin, Texas, we will. I think right now we have one location. You mentioned sourdough Sour Duck. I think that's going to be the location. Sue Marriott: Let me tell y'all a side story. Ann is really wanting to like spend the next couple of weeks, like going to different event, going to different locations and checking out the vibe and seeing how nice the people are. And you know what I mean, like having it be an event, like a scouting event to find the perfect location. Ann Kelley: We call that me circling my blankets. So we could actually, you could say we do, we always talk about sort of our different dynamics on the podcast. So who do you imagine wants to be decisive? We went to a place. This is it. This is fine. Let's name it. And I'm like, let's circle the blankets. Let's ride our bikes all over the city. It's just also an excuse to play around. Right. And find the location that is just right. So right now it may end up being Sour Duck, but we'll get back to you. But there are so many people out there that are not in Austin, Texas. But if you're out there and you have a location in mind. Awesome. we think it'll be fun. We're going to want you. If you get there, even if it's just one person that shows up when you're there that day on April 22nd, we want you to take a picture of you or your group and send it in. Sue Marriott: We might be doing some live FaceTime and stuff like that. So that'll be fun. But wait, in my defense about the sour duck. It is really a great place. And my notion was to already have the location, then it's, as we announce it, everybody knows where to go versus I do love the scouting and the journey and the, all of those things too. So we'll see how it actually lands, but if it lands at the sour duck, it doesn't mean that it's a sour decision. Ann Kelley: It means it was the right decision. Sue Marriott: It just means I already knew that was good. Ann Kelley: You do have good instincts it's true. And I do have a tendency to have to circle a blanket and see all my options. Sue Marriott: Oh my gosh. That's so true. Ann Kelley: So true. Well, let's jump into today's episode. Sue Marriott: Absolutely. And one way to do that. One of the things that we do here at Therapist Uncensored is we provide this incredible content. I wouldn't say that the first five minutes has been that incredible of content. However, we normally provide really, we have an archive of incredible really, really good, solid content that we provide for free. And we are able to do that two ways. One is with our community of neuro nerds. Thank you all for supporting us. You can join in and get all kinds of access to learning opportunities and cool things like that at therapistuncensored.com/join, but also we especially really want to give a moment here to our sponsors Simple Practice. Ann Kelley: Yes. Simple Practice is a online management system for anyone that works with clients, especially therapists. Sue and I both use simple practice. That's the reason we reached out to them as a sponsor because we want to only support things that we really feel some positivity towards. And it's really helped in being able to manage our system, being able to do billing. It's an all-in-one HIPAA compliant practice management system. Our listeners out there get two months free. So if you go to simplepractice.com/therapistuncensored, and check it out. And by the way, just checking it out really helps us a lot and help sponsors the program. Sue Marriott: That's right. And just to say a little bit more about simple practice, honestly is we both didn't use any kind of software before. We had our own ways that we handled it. And I have to say, if I've ever seen you as a client, you know, that I'm terrible at details and billing and things like that. So since then, I've gotten on simple practice. It was a little tiny bit of a learning curve, like a three out of a 10. That's how hard it was, but within probably an hour, it was already ready to roll. And now basically it's, you know, most of my clients are preset, so I really probably spend 30 minutes a month max making sure that it's all correct. Other than that, the bills go out automatically to the clients. Some of them already have their credit card in and it's all done automatically. They don't have to deal with it. We don't have to deal with, I don't have to deal with it. And there's an accounting at any minute. Anybody can log on and figure out what's going on. So. It's not lightly that we say that if you're not sure, or if you have hired someone, that's great. But if you're thinking of doing something more efficient that can be ongoing, then we really recommend that. And again, two months free. Okay. This is gonna be an interesting episode.. Ann Kelley: It is. You know, we've been talking a lot about kind of different ways that we can tell when we're in our, like more defensive protective system and when we're in more our connective and open system. Right. And one of the things we've been thinking about is what are the things that you can, how you can tell when you're in one in the other. And one of the big ones is self-criticism. And self-criticism can be a huge problem for so many of us, right? Sue Marriott: Oh yeah. I mean, I would be surprised if there, well, actually there is a category of when it comes to attachment of folks who are less consciously self-critical, so we'll get to that. But what's interesting about this as we get into the science around it is that first of all, everybody has a voice. So don't feel bad if, when we say self criticism and you're like, eh, I'm going to raise my hand. I felt guilty, which is already a little self critical. Isn't it? Ann Kelley: Exactly. You're prepping your own self critical self. Sue Marriott: Exactly. But what is, so it's not that unique to have a voice that is being critical of yourself, but when we can listen to the way that we criticize ourselves, then it becomes interesting. Ann Kelley: Absolutely. Absolutely. And because, I mean, we talk to ourselves all the time, like you said, we have an internal voice, we have a Metta voice going on more than we ever even realize. Right. So how do we recognize it when it's just being observational? Right. Like I spill my ice tea and I'm like, ah, you know, versus it's hopping over to that place where it becomes kind of a critical analysis of your own self. Sue Marriott: Totally. And I imagine as you're listening, like if we were doing a big world group therapy right now, and, and everybody could speak up and say like this, this is my words that I say to myself, and this is my words. We're not saying the same things. Everybody's saying something particularly unique and it probably has a theme. And so it just becomes kind of interesting. It's like, even right now, just reflect, like when you really get going against yourself, what does it sound like? Like what's the thing, like, is it that you're stupid? Is it that you're ugly. Like these are painful things to think about, but the reason that we're pointing you to them is because we're going to decode them and update them, so that our self-talk is going to, so you know, jumping to the end, we want one of the cool things about security and is basically that you have a secure script. Those of you who have been following for a while, know about internal working models. So. We might kind of just try on the idea that your self-talk might hint towards your unconscious script, your internal working model. Ann Kelley: So one of the things to think about, you just asked everybody kind of slowly think about it for themselves. What would just take another moment again? What would be your most common moments of self critic? And what would the theme be? I like how you're saying that. And I know for me, my self criticism often comes when I've realized I've procrastinated too much. And then I'm up against a deadline. That is brutal. If I have distracted myself and postponed, and then I'm about to maybe jump on an interview or something, and I haven't done my sufficient prep, I can feel that self criticism. Sue Marriott: What does it sound like? Ann Kelley: I think mine centers more around expectations of work ethic. It's not so much how smart I am, how I look. Mine is have I done the work ethic, and I will get really rough on myself if I feel like I've lingered and I haven't shown a strong work ethic. That's kind of how it sounds like I go, why did you not, you know better. Mine would be, you know better. Why did you do that? You know, like that would be my theme. What about you? Sue Marriott: Well, do you have any idea of why work ethic is achilles. Ann Kelley: Ah, absolutely. I think growing up work ethic was really promoted. I think having a strong work ethic in my mom and the identity of how hard she had to work for us, for one, and the anxiety that I would get if I wasn't doing, I can still remember. Sue Marriott: Lucille Ball. Ann Kelley: Oh, it is. I have. It's so funny to remember that. I'm sure I've talked about that before, but still. And my daughter's Sydney loves the Lucille ball show, but still when I hear that music, my stomach gets a little like anxious because I knew my mother was going to be home, I guess, it was like 25 minutes from the start of that program. And if we hadn't done the work that we needed to do and started dinner, et cetera it would make me a little anxious, mainly for her being upset, but also disappointed cause I knew she was working so hard, so there's like this strong work ethic. So my self-criticism probably centers a lot on my working model around what that holds for me. Sue Marriott: Yeah. That's interesting. I'm glad that you said more about that. Ann Kelley: So what about you? Sue Marriott: Oh, I think mine's a lot worse. I think you're just healthier or something. I don't know. No, I think my, what a couple of things I've noticed. One is. When I'm more dysregulated, when I'm not in a good place, my self-criticism is brutal. You said yours was brutal, everybody, you know, I guess it's all relative, but I'm definitely much more. The other thing is it doesn't necessarily come in the form of words. It's more of a feeling and it's, and it just cuts. Right? It's not like work ethic. It's like more of like, worth. My worth, my goodness, badness like that I'm actually bad or that my badness will be revealed. It's definitely more like core value of self. Ann Kelley: And that's what self criticism can be. It's an embodied experience, isn't it? It's not, it's not. The research really shows that it's not a cognitive thought, stop having that thought it really can envelop the body and it's a bodied embodied experience. So you're really describing it in such an articulate way that it can just have a wave of feeling incompetent or unworthy. And it's a sense you can't even articulate the words that come with it at times. Sue Marriott: Right. Well, and you know, if I am thinking in words, it's actually, if we think of the nervous system, you know, the lower down than I am, the more it's embodied As I come up, right, you have my higher thinking on, then there may be words. So there's some interesting things about this. So one is that, if I'm not dysregulated and there's, you know, we should talk about that paper and the research. So if I'm not dysregulated and I'm in a pretty good place, say that I'm feeling self-critical. One of the great things about that is that like, I don't know. I just don't, it doesn't go to that worth place. It's just more of like, dammit, you know, it's, it's a little bit more reality-based Ann Kelley: What you're saying is that when we're in our more secure way of relating and we're not activated, we can be self critical. We can go, oh, you should have prepared. Or you can, but it doesn't hit you on this core level, and we're able to self-reflect about it. We're able to mentalize. You know what, true enough I should have started earlier. Right? Like, so there's a way to be self-critical that isn't devastating to you and leaves a mentalization process where we can look at ourselves. Sue Marriott: So Ann, do you have the reference for that paper. So if you'll find that and I'm going to just share a little bit about. It was really interesting and the reason we love this particular paper is it has to do with mental scripts. And so one of the findings is just what I'm saying right now, and it's ringing really true for me. Which is that, when you're in an FMRI machine and if you're being self-critical and let's say that you score a s securely attached, it shows another part of your brain that I'm going to forget because I'm not a neuroscientist, but I probably should have, see, I could be critical of myself right now, but there's basically it has to do with the visual cortex. So if you're secure and then you're being self critical, the visual cortex lights up. And what the interpretation of that is, is that it's like, you're examining the thought you are kicking it around. It's like, you might can defend yourself even from your own self attack that like. In other words, it's a more complex Damn, I shouldn't have done that thing. Yeah. But they didn't give me the information in time. There's a working it. Ann Kelley: Right. There's a way of, I guess the language that we've used a lot is it's a way to mentalize around it. You can see yourself from outside. I think what you're. Okay. What you're talking about is the lingual gyrus. Sue Marriott: Thank you. Ann Kelley: So, but the article that you're speaking of is it's attachment styles, modulating neural markers of threat and imagery when engaging in self criticism. And it's in Scientific Reports 2020. So it's a recent article. You can see how Sue I spend our fun time. And we seriously do read this stuff for fun. That's a whole nother conversation, but it was really fascinating to see the things that we see in our office, we see in ourselves, but to really have it manifest in a way that we can describe it through brain functioning. Sue Marriott: Right. So if your score is secure on this, I don't remember. Here's an interesting thing about research though y'all is that there's so many measures of attachment and what Ann and I typically talk about is developmental attachment with the strange situation, AAI, the adult attachment inventory, and the adult attachment projective, those kinds of things. But, but, so when you're looking at an article, it's interesting to see how they measured it. We're writing a book and in our appendix of all the attachment measures, there's a zillion. But anyway, so that, that, you know, as a parenthesis, right, that, that basically that there is this activation with self self-criticism with securely attached where that it's, I like how you said it. It's basically, there's more mentalization happening with this Lingus gyrus. Ann Kelley: But one of the reasons why it's so important is that self criticism in general can activate a sense of a threat response. Right. And so that's when we were started off the whole conversation with how do we know we're in our defense? Well, when we start to self criticize or we're criticized by others, there is a sense of threat. There's a threat to our identity or self. Are we going to be rejected? Are we going to reject ourselves? So there's a threat response in our amygdala. And, and, and it goes through our limbic system. Those with secure attachment in an internal working model that says that being criticized, first of all, that their body likely is not as programmed towards self criticism. If you end up developing a secure attachment, you likely were not raised with highly self-critical parents or a critical of you. And so that with the amygdala response, it's like, we do feel a little threatened when you're in a secure place, but with that threat, it doesn't overwhelm the nervous system. It doesn't overwhelm our coping strategies. So, but it was really different when they looked at avoidant attachments, individuals more dismissing styles. Sue Marriott: Yeah. So basically one of the findings there is that there's not that activation of the, I'm making it, Ann Kelley: the lingual gyrus activation that they have an amygdala response, but there's not as much response to the lingual gyrus activation. And they speculate that in some ways that it overwhelms the coping system, that there's not this way of, they suppress basically the ability to mentalize. It's like, it moves very quickly out. It's kind of a way to dissociate if you will. Sue Marriott: It's dismissing state of mind. Ann Kelley: Right. It's dismissing one's own experience. When we talk about being in a dismissing state of mind, we often are dismissing our own emotions as well as others. Sue Marriott: Which includes self criticism. Ann Kelley: Absolutely includes the feelings of threat around self-criticism as too much so that it gets almost dissociated or suppressed. Sue Marriott: Right. And so the experience might be as someone who is recovering from dismissing, that side of things, for sure. The experience I think is more, it's going to be more critical of the other person. Like, I'm fine, but who is this crazy person out there, but notice that the self. So in other words, I'm not threatened by self attack. I'm more threatened by other people. And I want to talk about something about pleasure in just a minute, but were going to say something. Ann Kelley: Yeah. I think it's an interesting way to kind of think about it because we often talk about, or we have talked about one of the states that is threatening to this dismissing individual, or when we're in that state is the threat to an identity. Right. And so to be self-critical and to question yourself would really be activating because one leans towards dismissing because you had to rely on yourself. This isn't a negative. Remember this is not a negative state. This is not a personality disorder to land on dismissing. It's like we had a really, when you're there and you grow into an internal working model of dismissing is because you've had to rely on yourself. So you had to really learn to overvalue yourself because you didn't trust others. So, if you think about it, the idea of self-criticism and doubting yourself really would feel threatening. Sue Marriott: It would feel threatening, but it doesn't feel threatening because it's already suppressed. It happens so quickly. Ann Kelley: Right? And that's the one reason why we've talked about doing a whole episode on this, and maybe we will, because we've got an episode coming up specifically around the amygdala, but that's one reason we want to point out the difference between feeling threat and feeling fear. Like for somebody with dismissing attachment, you're not necessarily going to feel, oh, I'm afraid to be self-critical, you're going to bypass that experience altogether through the suppression and the act on the threat. And that's where dissociating that feeling comes out. And like, I don't have self criticism. In fact, I feel pretty damn good about myself. Although underneath we know that even in insecure attachment, including dismissing, there's a lot of self doubt. That's really hidden and suppressed. Sue Marriott: It's absolutely true. So basically your protective system, your defense system is active. And so you're a little amygdala, amygdala squirted some, you know, threat neurochemicals, and you've got a little cortisol. So if you put a Monitor on your finger to measure threat. It would actually be there, but you wouldn't be perceiving the threat. Ann Kelley: Right. You would have pushed it away and it kind of leans towards why criticism of others comes out. Because if somebody else is being self-critical, that is actually really hard often on somebody with dismissing attachment is to listen to somebody else be self-critical. They want to stop it. Sue Marriott: Or, to be critical to them. Ann Kelley: Oh, a good point. I was actually leaning there and I forgot that point. Thank you for bringing it back. And that is that the, the identity threat. So somebody being threatened, we often say that somebody with dismissing attachment will lean on how could you say that about me? Right. So you being critical of them is very, very disruptive. So while they don't incorporate self-criticism, they really, we really can become very defensive around criticism from other people, which then leads to wanting to cut it off, wanting to either eye roll, shut it down, move away, withdraw, leave. All of those signs are like, I have to get away. This is too much. Sue Marriott: So earlier, I had mentioned this idea of pleasure, and this goes exactly with what you're saying Ann, which is if we just very quickly go back. So here's this dismissing adult, but in childhood, what that means if they're dismissing adult, is that, that was adaptive for their environment, which I really appreciate you saying that earlier. That was just, we can't emphasize that enough. It's not a pathology. It was adaptive early on, but less if we break that down just a little bit more, what happens if you have a good environment, good enough environment, then you're distressed. Your little brain is distressed because we can't calm ourselves down. Right. Then the bigger brain is responsive and takes care of us. And guess what happens is we feel relief because we come back to homeostasis and that gets patterned. And then pretty soon we're going to feel relief when the caregivers even nearby 'cause there's a, there's a feeling of pleasure. So it works basically. Ann Kelley: That makes sense. Yeah. Sue Marriott: And so then we want to be near the caregiver, and their presence is soothing just in and of itself. Ann Kelley: Another way to look as rewarding. Sue Marriott: It's rewarding. Now, when you have had to, as you're saying depend on yourself, then that's great, but your what's missing is you're not getting the pleasure of the success of being soothed. As a matter of fact, What can then eventually happen is that it might not be pleasure, but your, your homeostasis has to do with being on your own. So then when you have someone near where, okay, now we're grown back up and we have a partner. That can actually evoke the threat system. Rather than oxytocin and all the good stuff that we really want to be happening when it's, when you're in a really dismissing state and the, and, and being alone can give you the feeling of relief Ann Kelley: because you're not warding off that sense of threat. Sue Marriott: That's exactly right. So I thought that was, that was one of my, like, ahas about some of this and reading more. And it also really emphasizes what Ann and I talk all the time about, about this being a morally neutral stance and it can, it can cause us problems for sure, but we don't want to approach it that the person's just being an asshole. Ann Kelley: That is so important Sue, and if you think about it, what often happens in relationships. Let's say. Uh, you're in a conflict and somebody being critical of the other person, which happens in conflict. But you have some criticalness coming. And you know if we continue the conversation about being in a dismissing state and you want to move away, you're hearing criticism and that's activating. If the individual doesn't accept, self-criticism very much guess what's happening? Your criticism while they're activated is not actually going in as insight. There's not a light bulb going on. Oh my God. You're right. I'm an ass like that. That happens less for somebody who lives in dismissing attachment because it's overwhelming. So then what can happen is that person leaves withdraws, walks away. It goes into their office, shuts the door, puts on a gaming device. And what can happen is that can really piss somebody else off. So then guess what happens? Yeah, they get approached with more criticism. I can't believe you withdrew, you walked away. How dare you? When really they're doing what their body's Sue Marriott: self soothing. Ann Kelley: They're self soothing. And doesn't mean it feels good. I'm not saying it's right, but they're self soothing. So when that other person comes in and is now more mad because you've withdrawn, you could see how the cycle, the pattern really, really gets very entrenched. And so one of the points of this is like self-criticism and criticisms from another person, other criticism I guess, is, is like really impactful on the nervous system and our sense of felt wellbeing. Sue Marriott: It does definitely it evokes the stress response for sure. Ann Kelley: And to be able to move out of that, we have to really, we noted that with we're in a secure place, we have the ability to mentalize. So that's one reason why we want to wait to really talk about these difficult things. When you're upset, instead of pointing out the criticism while activated on either side, it's just not productive. We don't have the mental capacity to mentalize, to reflect, kind of take that in and how important that is. Because it's important. When we mentalize, we actually then integrate that criticism Sue Marriott: We can learn. If we're in the window of tolerance, then our hippocampus is active. The hippocampus is the part that can begin to form memory, autobiographical memory. And it's like, oh, when this happens, I've learned this and this and this. Versus when we're more dysregulated, we can't learn that. Like you're saying, there's no uptake of information that is like, oh, oops. You know, I'm going to change this. Now again, remember we're moving towards again we're listening to our self criticism and we're playing with what's the script that we've internalized, which is our internal working model. And we're still aiming towards a more secure script, which we're going to name some of what that sounds like in just a minute, but probably we should go on over to the red side and talk about preoccupied, self criticism. Ann Kelley: Yeah. But preoccupied, self criticism, often centers on criticism related to relationships. It's not necessarily related to achievement, et cetera. It's often of course, any of us can, no matter where we fall can have self criticism about any of it on achievement or looks or anything based on our internal working model. Sue Marriott: Can I say something? It's not just individual. It is not just because of our internal working model. Part of why we attack ourselves is because we live in culture that attacks us. And that makes us, I mean, what marketing is about is making you feel deficit and then the product will make you feel better, whether it's your pimples or your belly fat or whatever it is. Ann Kelley: That's a great, great point. Cause we're talking about something, this to ourselves, we talk about self-criticism as if we walk around only, only responsible in our childhood, only responsible for what happens in our head. And we all know that that is absolutely not true. It's a really great point. Sue Marriott: As a matter of fact, when you talk cross-culturally and thank you, shout out to all the folks that listen from all over the world. We are so blessed to have a following in over 200 countries. So in some cultures, they don't struggle as much with self-criticism and shame is not the go-to. And for our culture, shame is, you know, Brene Brown, like shame. It's a thing. And so many of us can identify with it. But in some cultures that's not true. So I just, the point being that the bigger picture, the culture, our context really does also impact this. Ann Kelley: No, that's a, that's a great point. Actually, let's take just one moment out to thank our sponsor for today. Before we jump in and talk about red, which we will or talk about anxious attachment, just want to do a shout out for our sponsor today. And that is simple practice. As we mentioned before, Sue and I both use simple practice to run our management system, and you are able to do HIPAA compliant billing. You can even actually do a video on simple practice video. Sue Marriott: We can send reminder notices. Basically, one-stop shopping all in one. So we really recommend that. We asked you to go to simple practice.com backslash therapist, uncensored, and poke around .It can't hurt anything. It's two months free just for our listeners. Two full months free. So check it out. And now what about red? So in talking about, self-criticism, when we're in a preoccupied state of mind, or if we live more in a preoccupied, internal working model, we likely struggle with self-criticism more than any other internal working model. Because the core of that is that we haven't really learned to trust ourselves. And sothere's a frequent experience, not only of self doubt, but that we are causing those around us to push away. And it's often very centered on any idea of social rejection. What did we do that could lead to somebody pushing away, judging us or being critical of us? How many people like after an interaction and you're driving home, or what have you walking home later in the middle of the. You're going over it and going over it, and you can remember and visualize the person's face. Not quite catching what you said. Oops. Maybe you made a mistake like that sort of stuff. That those are all signs of that preoccupation. And with criticism, once we're in a more activated red preoccupied state, that could go either way. It can be. Self-attack. Or we can project that out into the world. And a lot of times when we do project it out into the world, we're imagining the self attack, but it's coming from someone else. Which also it's critical of that person. Like, oh, they're just I really mean and they just think I'm so stupid and you know, it's still critical of that person, but we, we project our own insecurity into other people and then feel it as if it's coming towards us. Ann Kelley: So the statement we often use to describe that as how could you do this to me? And it's a feeling of. I've done something you're rejecting me. How could you reject me? But underneath it, there is this self-incrimination. Sue Marriott: Right. Like I'm rejectable. Ann Kelley: when we were in a red state or anxious attachment state that we have an heightened amygdala response. That is certainly the experience in the brain of a highly sensitive amygdala response, which also means that we walk around ready to feel threat. So Sue and I often talk about wearing sunglasses as a distortion, so. When you're in a red or avoidant state, Sue Marriott: basically when you're dysregulated, not in the green state, either, either direction, dysregulated up up the nervous system, sympathetic or dysregulated down the nervous system. Parasympathetic, go ahead. Ann Kelley: We're talking up right now. You have sunglasses on that says you're able, you're more likely to interpret things out there as threatening and misinterpret them as negative. And here's the other thing misinterpret that the cues you're picking up are about you. Right? Sue Marriott: My pimple is gigantic, and everybody is looking! Ann Kelley: So that that's a really hard part. And to, to deal with that, if you have, and it's not unlikely to ruminate and to have an experience of a lot of negative self attack. And then what we can do to ourselves is then self attack ourselves for having all this negative rumination, which really sucks. And we really want to point out how important that this is not a cognitive processes. This is not something to just stop doing. You know, and, and that, you know, we were just speaking about what can happen when a blue person shuts down and leaves with somebody is in highly anxious state. And self-critical, it's very tempting to try to just tell them to stop acting that way or thinking that way Sue Marriott: that you want to push away. That's a sign actually that you're with someone that's a little bit moving into the red is typically, they're leaning in, even with their words and their pace and their urgency. Basically, if you could imagine, like they're leaning in and it causes us typically to begin to pull back. And so if you're feeling that pull back feeling, you know, like the wide-eyed pullback feeling, probably they're in an activated red state, Ann Kelley: that's a really good way to put it. And what they talk about in some of the brain studies. That the areas that are actually elevated during that state and the now, should we try it? The dorsal anterior cingulate and the interior insular regions, all of these regions are actually associated in our brain with rejection related distress. And in those areas, they actually become more activated, which is also really interesting because avoidant attachments tend to get less activated in these regions. Related to rejection, when they do studies that involve social exclusion, that somebody in a red state is much more likely to have this heightened activity in areas while somebody in a blue state is going to be lower activated. Sue Marriott: So, part of what that means is if you know that you tend towards that red, more activated preoccupied state, it's not that you can't trust yourself. It's that you need to learn that your equipment tends to lean in a certain direction. So it's like, if I'm feeling like they're all talking about me or that my, you know what I mean? That. That they're still thinking about this. I can sort of, self-correct a few degrees back around probably they're not thinking about this. Like in other words, this is all using our higher thinking and it assumes that we're in the window of tolerance, but it is actually a skill too. It's a learnable skill. So this gets into what script we want people to hear. Ann Kelley: Yeah, but you know, this weekend, since we've been kind of research focused, let's throw in the part of how sometimes they activate different attachment experiences in the moment in research is by doing attack, what they call secure attachment priming, and it's an amazing impact. And that basically means that we prime our bodies in a more secure way. And that can be even showing individuals images of secure, relating, two people hugging like social relationships that are getting along really well, Sue Marriott: soft eyes, soft space, Ann Kelley: it also helps to have individuals imagine secure relating through past relationships. But the point of this is not try to induce some research activity out there. The point of it is, is that priming our bodies for positive social support in any way calms these regions of our minds and our brains that we're talking about that get activated and pull us more into our secure way of relating where we aren't pushing all of our self-critical buttons or other critical. So as well as being able to help each other. So being able to say I'm really upset, but I'm here for you. You know, being able to soften your eyes, being able to lower your voice and imagine, or if you're on your own, imagine somebody coming towards you in a caring, loving way could really activate your body. Sue Marriott: Right. And we're primarily talking about secure relationship with self, and we want to build secure relationship with self because basically you can hear what the self criticism it's not there, not a very secure base in there when we're actively criticizing ourselves. So even that movement, just you saying those words Ann, I could already actually feel a physiological response about people hugging like, or real smiles, like, like not fake smiles, people lying together, relaxed, a mother holding a baby and gazing. These are some of the primes that can evoke the right neurochemicals in our body. Again, this is a moral meaning, it's not if I'm preoccupied and I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just being difficult because my that's the neurochemical soup that's active . I mean, I'm literally responding to my body. Ann Kelley: Right. Due to your intensified amygdala response, inability to mentalize as we were talking about it. Sue Marriott: And then what happens on that side is I'm more focused on what you and like it's, and I don't believe I consumed myself. I believe I need you. I need you to understand me and give me what I want. You have to give me this feeling or else I'm not going to be okay. Right. That's a preoccupied script. So rather than running the script of, I need you to understand me right now, or, you know, I need to have this feeling or else I can't let go. Right. What we're wanting to help you move towards and help ourselves move towards is, this doesn't have to end perfectly. I'm going to be okay. this person that I'm upset with is good enough. And I'm going to be okay. Like it's moving back towards the secure sense and it's not perfect. It's not like, oh, I'm wrong. And really everything's okay. It's more of this is hard. So when you're in a secure state, you can handle things. So it's like, I can handle hardship. That will be okay. I can feel feelings and be okay. Ann Kelley: And just the idea of being able to, listening to her voice to just very calming me down. But it it's a way of I'm going to be okay is the sense of generated a sense of security, even though your threat is feeling like, oh my gosh, you're reminding your body. And I guess we could bring that in, especially if we tend to be self-critical. And like, I'm so stupid. I'm like, you know, to say, wait, no, no, no, no. I tend to say that I tend to be really hard on myself and that's okay. Sue Marriott: Self compassion Ann Kelley: Self compassion. Sue Marriott: Right. So, so secure scripts sound like things like it's okay for them to need me. I might fail sometimes, but I'm going to be able to help this person. Ann Kelley: It's okay that I lost my temper and I was way activated. It's okay. It's because my body did that. I'm okay. Sue Marriott: And not only am I okay, but I trust that this other person's going to be okay. I haven't broken them and if they need help, they're going to get the help they need. Or maybe they'll turn to me and I can help them be okay. It's okay for me to need something. I get to need things. Sometimes I get to ask for help. I don't have to be perfect. Ann Kelley: And even if I think a big one is again with the criticisms, like I realized I did this really dumb thing, but I'm okay. I did this thing, but I'm not the thing. Sue Marriott: Oh my God. Say that again. Ann Kelley: Well, I did this, but I'm not this. I let myself down because I wasn't prepared, but I am generally a really good person. I, you know, I'm really worthy. I screwed this thing up, but I am worthy. Sue Marriott: And I'm going to get a second chance Ann Kelley: and I'm going to get a chance and nobody is going to, sometimes you have to really think if you you've really heard of friend's feelings and you just are horrified. You have to just then imagine the secure ending, instead of being preoccupied with a negative ending. Imagine things will be okay. I will be alright.. Sue Marriott: That's a really, actually super important. When they do prompts with photos and things like that. And you make up a story. Secure when we're in a secure state of mind, or if you happen to come by natural attachment security, the story that you tell is both you're capable, there's help available. And you know, a lot of times the prompt will be, and then what happens next? And always the, what happens next is, oh, and then the friend comes her in, like, so that's like, basically we're introducing the idea of the future. We're not always going to feel this terrible a minute ago when you said the thing about, yeah, I did this bad thing, but I'm not bad. Something like that. It reminded me of an old episode when I was interviewing Bob Schneider. And he's a musician here in Austin. Side story, but one of the things he had said was something about the, in the depth of his therapy. That has fear always. So I'm not identifying him as whatever level he is, you know, as far as what kind of attachment. But what it made me think of is cause I wanted to go back to the avoidant for a minute. Cause we've been talking a lot about the self criticism and the activation. So on the avoidance side, it's like, we can't quite let ourselves feel it, but if we did it's really bad. And so he had made some comments that what he couldn't let himself think about, but really thought was that he was this raging narcissistic asshole. And through the therapy, he came to that, he's a narcissist. Interesting. Right. And he's okay. Like he struggles with this thing. It was some version of that. Know that I'm bungling it, but it really reminded me of like, I struggle with these or this thing, and I'm not a monster. Ann Kelley: And his ability to actually mentally rise that and tolerate that and let that in means he just moved in the spectrum away from narcissism. He's still can be narcissistic. Sue Marriott: Right. If a narcissist is worrying and thinking about their narcissism, we're in pretty good shape, Ann Kelley: you know, I'm glad you brought that up because another interesting thing about the dismissing not really coping with self-criticism often they have been raised with self-criticism. In fact, individuals who end up reporting that their parents were highly critical often landed insecure attachment on both sides, but a dismissing individual who doesn't actually let themselves metabolize self-criticism often are more likely to be critical parents. Sue Marriott: Oh yeah. They act it out. Ann Kelley: They act it out because here's the interesting thing, you know, we said that they're not mentalizing it. So one speculation is that the can't then let themselves feel the effect of self-criticism. Right. If we're in a secure place of living. Even in an activated anxious, we feel so sensitive to criticism that we're aware to be able to mentalize its impact on other people. Right? So that, that helps us. That's one reason why, when we're really activated and pissed off, we can be more critical. But when we're calm, we can mentalize the impact. If an individual was raised with a lot of self-criticism and they have to push that away. Cause it's just too much. So be criticizing, especially throughout childhood is overwhelming for that child's nervous system, but they're more likely to be critical parents because they dissociated the impact so they can criticize without imagine impact on their children without holding that. But we will tell you that is having a devastating effect on kids. Criticizing children on a frequent basis is really, really a negative powerful indicator. Sue Marriott: Yeah. The way that I think of it is, you know, I've had to be tough. I, you know, pull myself up by my bootstraps. So if I, if I push my kid a little bit, Then I'm like be tough. Don't bid, don't cry about that. What are you, what are you crying about? Ann Kelley: That's often how they feel to say that's how I was raised, when you try to do parenting coaching. That's how I was raised. My dad talked to me and look at me. And so maybe they're very effectively achievement oriented. So they're saying, look, I'm so successful. And I was raised this way, but what they don't realize is how close are they in their intimate relationships and how close are they to their child? Because. Your child is feeling it. You may not be now, but fortunately, if you're lucky, your child's still feeling your criticism, because if your child's no longer feeling your criticism, that's not a good sign. And that's really what, what happens eventually. You just tune it out. Sue Marriott: I love what you just said there. We need to highlight that statement in our show notes because the whole thing of like once I stopped criticizing, you know, or once I stopped feeling it, that there's a, what that means is my nervous system has been so impacted by it that I have to shut it down, which is by the way, the definition of trauma, that is a bad things can happen to us, but if we have the resources to handle it, it's not trauma. What trauma is, is when our, it effects our physiology and it goes in a new way. So basically what you're saying is once they stop feeling it, it means they've had to shut down a big part of their affective world.. Ann Kelley: In fact, it's probably a good way to start wrapping this because what we want to end with is we're all trying to find a way that our body can lean more towards secure relating whether we were brought up that way or were earned in our security. And to know that if you're in the more secure place we're busting through those myths, that. Get through it and not feel it is actually a positive outcome. Nope. What we're shooting for is I can feel it. I can really experience it in my body, but I also can do it at a way that I can still mentalize and keep my thinking online. Sue Marriott: And when I lose my shit and I see, I no longer keep my thinking on. That's still okay. Ann Kelley: Because I'm aware that I'm doing this, Sue Marriott: or even I'm not aware of doing it, but like, again, self-compassion, it's like, there's nothing, shame does not help us in any form get more related or connected or honestly more effective at whatever we're trying to do. Ann Kelley: That's true. So if we lose it, we lose it, Sue Marriott: we lose it and then you just, you know, then there's another beat and then there's another beat. And on that third or fifth or 20th, We get to stand back up and hold her head up and make repair and do what we need to do to handle that. But it, but not coming from a place of you are a bad person Ann Kelley: I love us ending on the concept of repair. That's what it's all about. It's all about being able to repair with ourselves and being to repair with others when we have lost it. And once we repair our body, we have to have repair. That's what, that's what true parenting and true connection and true relationships about. It's not getting it right. Is being able to say I screwed up. I'm sorry. We're there. Sue Marriott: Yeah. So, so secure priming as we end ,so imagine a person that you feel unconditionally. And that would be there for you no matter what, even if you haven't seen them in a long time. So just sort of visualize that person, those of you that have worked with ideal parent stuff. See if you can imagine like a perfectly responsive, contingent attuned reaction. And we want to just hang out in this place of just imagining the soft eyes. And the soft face. What other kind of secure imagery do we want? Ann Kelley: Well, all of a sudden I had the secure imagery of puppies, Sue Marriott: Oh my gosh, yes. Oxytocin Ann Kelley: Things that can actually if we can activate the, the oxytocin in one another, that is what can be the secure relating. Even listening to a voice that's calming and caring. It really can warm the system. Sue Marriott: That's right. Art, certain music, tuning into music that gives you that feeling, nature. There's somebody that I know that likes to in the middle of the night, go out and, and, you know, work on their garden and like pick the caterpillars off their plants. And you know what I mean? Like basically really immerse in nature and look at the sky, the dark sky and the, you know, perspective, those kinds of things evoke this ease. And this low stakes place of like, everything's going to be okay. That's the way that we want to kind of end this and really invite you to just, we want to grow that part of you, that that can find your safe place and your safe people inside of you. Because remember, this is about growing security in yourself. Ann Kelley: Perfect way to wrap this. All right, you all speaking of secure relating. I want to do a big shout out to our, those who that are patrons out there for us. And if you are out there and you're able, cause not everyone is able and you're able to support our programming to be able to get this kind of information out far and wide for our goal of deepening security one episode at a time, we ask you to join us and you can do it at therapistuncensored.com/join. So, not only would you get ad free feed, but you would be helping us build security for you and those around you and across the world. Sue Marriott: That's right. And we also do deep dive, like extra episodes. we do a lot of community building and which speaking of you don't have to be a patron to come to the meetup. April 22nd. Jump on, like, if you're willing to host an event, contact us info@therapistuncensored.com, or go to the Facebook page probably by the time this publishes we'll have the event page set up and let's do it. It'll be fun. Ann Kelley: It will be fun. All right. Thanks for joining us. And we'll see you around the bend. Scroll back to top Sign up to receive email updates Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast. powered by

“It’s not about letting harms and injustices get a free pass. It’s about making choices about how you seek that accountability in a way that’s more likely to be effective.” Calling in Call-out Culture and lots more…. see show notes below for more resources! Loretta J. Ross is an activist, professor, feminist and warrior of reproductive justice and human rights. She is a master of a kind yet powerfully effective confrontation and advocacy.  In this episode she teaches about self-forgiveness as an important missed step in advocacy, the 5 C Continuum and surprisingly, she debunks the idea of security and safety as a goal in human relating.  She doesn’t believe in safety for good reason – it’s a good wake up call. Join us in a powerful discussion with Ross and co-host, Sue Marriott as they look at young radicals, the idea of inclusive human justice work (this means everybody) and her techniques that many who know co-regulation will appreciate. About Loretta J Ross  Beginning her series of careers as a human rights activist, Loretta J. Ross has dedicated her life to social change. She has worked at the National Football League Player’s Association, the DC Rape Crisis Center, the National Organization for Women (NOW), the National Black Women’s Health Project, the Center for Democratic Renewal (National Anti-Klan Network), the National Center for HumanRights Education, and SisterSong Women of Color Reproductive Justice Collective. After her retirement in 2012, she continues her influential efforts by teaching Women and Gender studies as a clinical professor at Smith College in Georgia. Among her dedication to change, she has also been the author and co-author of many books and articles, including Reproductive Justice: An Introduction with Rickie Solinger, and Radical Reproductive Justice: Foundations, Theory, Practice, Critique. Ross has also been featured in many impressive news outlets like the New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, TIME magazine, and many others. In 2022, she plans to release her most recent piece, Calling in the Calling Out Culture.   “Call-out culture” – is a term coined within the last few years, but it is a concept that has existed long before. With a society immersed in technology, there are many positives about the seemingly never-ending conversation, but with this increase in connection and immediate dialogue, there’s also an increase in the ability to speak negatively to and about one another. How do we educate others without tearing them down? In a divided world, changing our approach can help create social change. “Calling in is to invite people into a conversation rather than a fight.” L.J. Ross  For the young fighters:  Stop imagining that you’re the entire chain of freedom, the whole revolution doesn’t rest on your shoulders.  The chain of freedom stretches backward towards all of our ancestors and forward into our descendants. Our whole job is to simply make sure that the chain doesn’t break at our link. “You are more likely to have an influence,” she said, “if you are listening carefully, respecting their humanity even as you disagree with them. The person who uttered those hard words will start walking them back because they did not get the reaction they were counting on.”  Calling out someone, with the intent to shame and humiliate, “can be a paradox, because it’s not likely to get you the results you desire. It’s more likely to lock someone into their position.” Time Stamps: 2:00 – About Loretta J. Ross – personal story, Calling In Call-Out Culture backstory 10:16 – Young radicals – The Importance of Understanding Perspective 11:56 – Self Forgiveness – IMPORTANT POINT 17:03 – Breaking Down the Concept of “Appropriate Whiteness” 20:46 – Understanding “Performative Activism” 25:17 – Exploration of what “Safety” really is – Loretta schools Sue 🙂 29:24 – The “5 C Continuum” 51:54 – Utilizing your “Toggle Switch” of Consciousness   Resources: Loretta J Ross’s Website Loretta J Ross Ted Talk Speaker’s Notes  What if Instead of Calling People Out, We Called Them In? – New York Times Article  Purchase Loretta’s book, “Reproductive Justice: An Introduction” Purchase Loretta’s book, “Undivided Rights: Women of Color Organizing for Reproductive Justice” “Human Rights and Reproductive Justice” with Loretta Ross – The Trail Article  The Future Is ‘Radical Reproductive Justice’ – Rewire Newsgroup Article Fighting White Supremacy and White Privilege to Build a Human Rights Movement “Eugenicists Never Retreat, They Just Regroup: Sterilization and Reproductive Oppression in Prisons” – Article by Loretta J Ross Loretta J Ross recognized as one of 14 Badass Women – Refinery 29 Article  Voices of Feminism Oral History Project Interview of Loretta Ross – PDF Loretta Ross Papers – Smith College Libraries Calling In the Calling Out Culture: A Continuum of Accountability – Loretta J Ross Speech “I Hope We Choose Love: A Tran’s Girl’s Notes from the End of the World” – Book by Kai Cheng Thom, Arsenal Pulp Press, 2019 “Calling IN: A Less Disposable Way of Holding Each Other Accountable”– Article by Ngọc Loan Trần, BGD, 2013 “We Will Not Cancel Us: And Other Dreams of Transformative Justice” – Book by Adrienne Maree Brown, AK Press, 2020 “The Body Is Not an Apology: The Power of Radical Self-Love” – Book by Sonya Renee Taylor, Berrett-Koehler Publishers, 2018 “Reproductive Justice” one of her first pieces written alongside Rickie Solinger If you enjoy this content please consider joining our online community as a TU Neuronerd and help support Sue and Ann in getting this content out to the world. For deeper dives into topics and specific episodes, join our online community for as little as $5 a month. As a member you get extra content, ad-free feed, Ask Me Anything sessions, discounts on anything we produce, study opportunities, and – in Feb 2022 we will meet in a live Zoom session after a series of private episodes breaking down Jill Bolte-Taylor’s, Whole-Brain Living. If you are seeing this afterward, all this will be accessible plus new things we are finding interesting at the time.     Transcript – Lightly Edited for Readability Can you tell us a little about yourself? My name’s Loretta Ross, and I’m a Texas gal born in Temple, Texas grew up in San Antonio, Texas, and feel like I’m an I-35 family. But I live in Atlanta, Georgia now because I’ve been gone from Texas since the days of the Hemisfair. I left in 1970 to go to college. And I haven’t lived back in Texas since then. I’m a professor at Smith College in the program for the study of women and gender because I’m a professional feminist. I became a feminist when I went off to college at the age of 16 and I haven’t looked back, I’ve worked in women’s rights, civil rights, human rights work for more than 50 years. Right now I’m really focused on not what work we do, but how we do the work. And so I started six years ago, a book called Calling in the Calling Out Culture. And it actually can be blamed on my grandson because at the age of about 12, he decided he didn’t know how to answer his cell phone. I knew this was incomprehensible because every kid knows how to answer the cell phone, but it would go to voicemail. And he said grandma if you want to reach me, get on Facebook. I got on Facebook just in time for him to immediately migrate off saying it was for old fogies now. And I didn’t follow him to Snapchat or wherever he went, but I stayed on Facebook.  And that’s when I noticed how unbelievably mean people were to each other. I am convinced that people give themselves license to say things online behind that cloak of anonymity if they wouldn’t dare say to a person’s face. And so when I noticed this and then pointed it out to some young people I was working with, they said, oh, you mean the call-out culture? I was like, y’all have named it. And this young person said, oh yeah, we deal with this all the time. I said what are y’all doing about it? And she shrugged and walked away.  So I began processing my 50 years of activism back in the seventies. We used to call it, trashing each other and claiming people weren’t relevant. And that was the worst thing we could call somebody “irrelevant” and learning and really revisiting all the experiences I’d had in mind when I called people out, but also when I got called out myself and what I learned from other people about giving people grace and forgiveness and calling people in, an icon of the civil rights movement, Reverend Joseph Lowery used to say all the time: “We’ve got to learn how to turn to each other, not on each other.” And this was being said in the 1960s. So obviously they were dealing with the call-out culture too. And so I began writing a book about six years ago on calling in the calling out culture. Unfortunately, my son died right after I had begun writing the book, unexpectedly of a heart attack. So I put it aside for a couple of years because I just didn’t feel like writing a book. And while I dealt with that, that unimaginable pain, I put it away. But I picked it up a few years ago and started writing on it. And then because of COVID, I started teaching my techniques online for $5 a class. The next thing I know I have 700 people enrolled because I had really tapped into a frustration. A lot of people are feeling that we’re being too mean to each other. We’re too quick to judge each other. We’re calling each other out. We’re blaming everybody. We think that we can change people when we can’t. And so I just walled into adjusting all that was happening at the time. And the success of teaching it online and I continue to teach it online. Now I have a staff of us teaching it online. This led to an inquiry by Simon and Schuster. So they offered me a pretty generous book deal to finish my book. And so that’s where I am, but I’ve taught calling-in techniques to eighth-graders and to C-suite executives. It’s really about making different choices about how you pursue accountability with other people. It’s not about letting harms and injustices get a free pass. It’s about making choices about how you seek that accountability in a way that’s more likely to be effective.    We get called out all the time, even though I’ve been an activist in my life and we’ve done a lot,  as far as from the gay and lesbian world, and as parents, gay parents, things like that. We’re aware of it, but according to our children, we are in the stone age and you talk about woke and, we are constantly being pointed out how un-woke that we are. And in some ways wonderful, but there’s this certainty! And, I was curious for you, what do you think is behind it and how can we hold people accountable, not to silence yourself, but be effective in your communication is what I’m hearing. But do you have a sense of what’s driving some of that? It’s both mean –  but these aren’t mean people, but they’re behaving in this way that is really cutting, extreme, and polar polarizing.  There are a lot of motivations for the call-out culture. Some people are doing it in good faith and I, those are the ones I care about and some people are doing it in bad faith. They’re weaponized. The fact that they don’t want to be held accountable for the harm that they do, for the policies that they promote, for the lives that they perpetrate, like the entire Republican party. And so I tend to distinguish between whether or not the person is operating in good faith or bad faith. If I actually believe that you are making a sincere attempt to do the right thing, but you’re going about it the wrong way, then I’m going to invest my time and attention in you, because I think you are willing to learn how to do what you want to do better.  If you’re doing it in bad faith and you’re trying to cause harm, or you’re trying to shut people down, or you’re trying to evade accountability and double down on the harm that you’re doing, that I’m going to use my favorite call out tactics on you, because I do reserve the right to call out racism, bigotry, fascism, homophobia, and transphobia with glee. If you are dedicated to harming people and you’re doing it on purpose, I don’t have to believe your Milly mouth lies. I choose not to be that credulous, that naive. But I don’t think that’s the majority of humanity. I think most people, particularly young people, are so earnestly trying to do the right thing. And so we’ve given them this radical consciousness without the radical tools to handle it responsibly. The weight of the world is on them because we didn’t fix racism and homophobia and sexism and transphobia before they came and now they feel an urgency to do it. And they’re going to call out everybody who they don’t think is doing it the way they think it should be done. So you’ve got radical consciousness, meeting useful eagerness. And no one is speaking to that. No one is helping people be able to integrate those things. And so that’s why I love teaching young people about calling in. The first thing I try to get young people to understand is perspective. Stop imagining that you’re the entire chain of freedom, the whole revolution doesn’t rest on your shoulder because the chain of freedom stretches backward towards all of our ancestors and forward into our descendants. So, our whole job is to simply make sure that the chain doesn’t break at us . You can be in the chain, do think that it all starts and stops with you. That’s lovely. Okay. So what if you get a response of  “There won’t be ancestors because of climate change”  and “This is different than it’s ever been” That’s of course, part of the lack of a time and event horizon. Of course, everything is different than it used to be. That’s called change. So yes, you’re right. This is different than it used to be. And guess what? Tomorrow it will be different than today. You got that, right? Good. Guess what will also happen tomorrow? You won’t think tomorrow the same way you think today, because that’s also called growth. And so don’t assume that the snapshot you’re taking today, the screenshot you’re taking today is the whole depth of that picture that you are looking at currently, it is not.  I love it, You’re taking care of them. This is another calling in really. Keep your fire, keep your spirit.  And so it starts with self-forgiveness. This is an important term to teach them because they can be so self-critical and that’s the key to why they’re so hypercritical of other people, because they haven’t been able to learn how to accept and forgive themselves for not being perfect. There’s this whole worship of perfectionism that’s really toxic. And so they tend to use that same rubric to judge other people for not being perfect and they think that’s what they’re supposed to do. And so it really starts with accepting themselves as works in progress, that will make mistakes and we’ll use every mistake as a learning opportunity, not as a reason for punishment or self-blame or getting down on oneself. Just because you’ve been through stuff that doesn’t mean you get the right to make harm happen to other people, you got to break that hurt people thing because that doesn’t justify what, you’re not accountable for yourself. So it starts with self-assessment and self-forgiveness, all calling in practices start with that.  What’s going on with you? Because what’s going on with you will dictate how you choose to call somebody in or out. If you’re in a sufficiently healed enough place, then you’re going to be in a space that is more predisposed to offer grace and respect and forgiveness to others. But if you are bleeding from your own emotional wounds, calling in or calling out will really only result in your bleeding all over the other person. Even if you don’t mean to. I love this. This is oxygen and an area that has none. It’s so beautiful. Do you get pushback from the left? Yeah. Yeah, because, and legitimate pushback from the left, by the way, because I am a human rights activist, calling out is what we do. We criticized governments, individuals, and corporations usually because private appeals don’t work. We tried to write a letter campaign to you to get you to stop polluting the river. Or we try to meet with your board of trustees or directors or shareholders to get you to change courses. And so we’ve been backed into a corner where they’re calling out is our best weapon, because the only thing left for us to do is to cause you shame. And so given our familiarity with that tactic, our problem is we think that’s the first weapon of choice and not the last one. And that’s where the pushback from the left comes back. They think we should always use shame as a way to create change in other entities, whether it’s individuals, corporations, or governments, when in fact it should be the weapon of last resort, not the first thing out of the toolbox. Do you think it goes back to what you said earlier, which I love, about self-examination and our own internal shame of not doing enough, so then if you catch somebody being too soft, then you’re going to stamp that right out.  And you’re going to project that shame onto them, all of that. And the other thing that I try to get young people to understand is that there are many pathways to the mountain top. Your pathway may not be someone else’s pathway. As a matter of fact, it will not. It’s guaranteed not to be someone else’s path because they don’t have your lived experiences, they have their own. And so we all learn things at different paces and at different times. We choose to go to the mountaintop a different way because of what we’ve been through versus what someone else has been through. I actually had this insight, long before I learned the calling out concept, in the 1980s, when I was on the staff of NOW, the National Organization for Women, and I had been hired to start and run their first women of color program. I spent my first two years at NOW  trying to convince white women to understand what the life of a black woman was like. And I gave up out of frustration, not because of what the white women were doing, but what I was doing wrong. It took me a while to understand. They didn’t even understand how to be appropriate white women and live in comfort with their whiteness. If they were uncomfortable being white, how the hell can I get them comfortable about understanding blackness? I’ve got a different project here! That is so insightful.  You’re going to love them through this in some ways. It’s like they need something first. Yeah. So I stopped being angry at them. I was like, oh, okay. And so I started thinking about the concept that I call appropriate whiteness. How do you learn to be proud of being white without white supremacy? How do you learn to not feel shame and guilt for characteristics that you have no damn control over, but you can repurpose in the service of human rights and justice. It’s a different project. That’s one of the reasons I get so impatient with a lot of what’s called DEI training, Diversity Equity, and Inclusion training, because it starts from a place of shame and punishment. And I cannot convince myself that any human being is going to be attracted to something that makes them feel bad about themselves. Shame doesn’t work. It doesn’t bring out our best selves. That’s right, exactly! The whole predicate of you fight white supremacy by not separating it from white identity is flawed to me. White supremacy is a body of ideas. It’s an ideology. Whiteness is just an identity, just like blackness is an identity. And, not all white supremacists are white and not all white people are white supremacists. And if you don’t understand those fundamental fact, what is going to be your approach to doing the work with people who have identities that you need to work with in order to defeat white supremacy, the ideology? It’s brilliant. I know some about your history. I know that you have a very painful history including helping people in the Klan and white supremacy groups. You’ve had to endure that level of violence and hatred in those groups and bridge to them. Where do you get this? Do you have a sense of your own, where do you, where does this bubbling well of compassion? I don’t know if it’s compassionate, it’s pragmatism.   If black folks could end white supremacy without white folks it would have been over a long time ago.  Yeah, that’s true. It’s effective. It’s about effectiveness. I know we need white folks to deconstruct white supremacy because white folks created it. And so we have an advantage at this particular historical moment because more white people have been turned off by the ideology of white supremacy because of the way Trump behaves than ever before in the history of America. And if we don’t recognize what a wonderful opportunity it is, when they say America is divided, no America isn’t divided, white America is divided.  And this is our opportunity to take advantage of that division and say, the white people in America who are repulsed by white supremacy and want to work towards human rights, those are our allies. And just because they don’t know the latest words or they’ll get gender pronouns wrong or whatever the hell you think is wrong with them, which clearly is a reflection of what’s wrong with you. But anyway, they need to work on get the F over it! Because at worst, they’re your problematic allies  The best way I tell it to young people..there’s a whole lot of conversation among young people about what they call performative activism. You just put up a black lives matter sign, but you don’t really mean it. Or you just put up love (hate) has no home here sign, but you don’t really mean it. And I tell them, first of all, you need to get over yours. Because you haven’t done any research, you don’t even know anything about that person you’re busily passing judgment on. So you’re making an opinion from an ill-informed place with just one of the hallmarks of stupidity, but leaving that aside, the fact that they put up that sign has told you the number one thing you need to know, and they all say what was that? This is not on the other side. No member of the hate movement has ever put up a black lives matter sign. So you already know they’re on your side. You just got to figure out how to work with them! Which is part of why they put up the black lives matter signs. This is something I can do.  Exactly! You know, I try to speak with love, cause I’m not into shaming people into doing the right thing. I don’t think it works, but I do use a bit of mockery and humor. Cause I’m like why do you think, everything you need to know about a person, just because you saw Facebook posts, you didn’t like? Where you granted that ESP denied to the rest of us? By the way, did someone have a cell phone recording your most stupid moment? The way that you’re using somebody else’s most stupid moment against them. Sometimes I can use a little bit of humor to make them reflect about whether they want to do things differently. It’s so interesting, as you are talking, we talk a lot about interpersonal neurobiology and attachment and things like that, and this is how I would describe what you’re doing.  You’re signaling safety to them that you’re okay through your general presence, certainly, but also the humor and things like that. Like you’re saying, it’s almost like on one hand, you’re saying you’re safe with me and I’m going to tell you how it is. Does that sound right? I don’t think that is what I was doing because I actually don’t believe in safety. These, you asked me about how I had a wonderful, loving family, so that’s not the problem, but my family was also marred by multiple generations of incest. And so safety was so situationally specific for me. There were times in my family situation when I felt safe and they were times when I felt decidedly unsafe. Then, when I was 10 years old and my mom and dad and the rest of us were moving from Virginia to Mississippi, we got shot at, in Mississippi when I was 10. And then, I was raped and all other kinds of stuff that happened to me. So safety feels Valhalla or someplace to me that never really existed.So it’s not something that I spend a whole lot of time worrying about not having.  I think that safety and comfort are privileged too much as a way to keep people from dealing with the reality of things as they are versus how you’d like them to be.  Particularly since I’ve spent a lot of my career working with white women, the first thing I have to disabuse them of is this belief that you’re entitled to feel safe and comfortable in every interaction in life because the reality is that, first of all, you’re neither safe nor comfortable. You just want the illusion of it. And then you want me to participate in the illusion for you. WhenI tell them, like I tell my students, do you want me to protect you from reality or teach you about it? You need to choose how you want this engagement to be.  So you’re leading them into the discomfort that’s already there and expanding their capacity to handle the discomfort. You’re more resilient than you think you are. I so appreciate you. So again, that was a tiny example,I think, of calling me in the sense that I was off base with that. I am so excited. I think you’re right about what you said. And as a matter of fact, as a therapist, I do feel that way in group like “this isn’t safe” and I’m like safe, what’s safe? You know what I mean, there’s no safety.  It is a privilege. It’s an illusion. I don’t know if it was a privilege. I don’t know anyone who is actually safe, even very rich people aren’t safe. My friends who’ve had multi-generational inherited wealth. That wealth became a barrier between them and their mother bond or whether they could trust the service around them. Whether they could ever secure a romantic relationship. Safe! What individual has actually experienced safety. Show them to me. Cause I don’t know. I love what you’re saying. I think that’s right. It’s a mental construct. That is an illusion. And yeah, that you’re resisting the invitation to participate in that illusion. Yeah. But that doesn’t mean that you have to feel scared either. It’s not a binary. And so certainly I feel safer if I choose not to walk down that dark alley half drunk, but even if I was totally sober and that alley was well lit, would I actually be safe? How do people like your students, how do they respond? They are incredibly grateful because the things they say are, “Oh my God, I don’t have to be on all the time. I don’t have to go around and look for the next fight I’ve got to have. I can wear this t-shirt and if somebody criticizes my t-shirt, I can stop and ask them what’s going on with you? That you would have a reaction to my t-shirt. You’re not wearing it. I am.” They really like having options because before they felt boxed in, that they had to say the precisely right thing or write the precisely right thing that stands up to the test of time that won’t be called out over social media, that won’t be weaponized against them in the future. Literally walking around on eggshells. And know that they’re going to make mistakes and their mistakes are okay. There’s nothing wrong. There’s nothing fatal about making a mistake.  When you make a mistake, and this was what one of my mentors told me when I was in my twenties, they said, “when you have bad news about yourself or read it, tell it so that you can control the narrative. If you tell it first, it can never be used against you. But if you wait and try to hide it, then you’re vulnerable to whoever gets that lever. And so they love hearing that kind of advice because they said they’ve been trained to hide and cover up mistakes. Instead, own them and learn from them. There’s something really powerful about your message. I can feel it myself. I know people that are listening to this podcast are going to be able to feel it. As you’re speaking, I keep thinking about the objective idea of safety is one thing, but there is something you go from inside your body, you go from threat, which is what you’re describing, which is “I’m not good enough” and therefore I’m going to be on eggshells, to more of a sense of inner security that “I’m a mess, just like every, we all are a mess and we’re all in this together”, and we’re going to do this together so I can step on the eggshells. Something like that. Does that resonate? I will step on eggshells and I will survive it. Not only that, I will be better next time. That’s incredible. So it’s wow, look how bad I am. I not only went through a crucible, but I kicked that crucible’s ass, and look at me now! That’s wonderful. So what are some of the techniques that you teach? I call it the five C continuum. First of all, to the calling in process.  First, there’s calling out, which is what we all recognize that publicly shaming people for something they’ve done or said that you thought needed to be challenged or they held accountable for.  The ultimate call-out is cancellation where you’re trying to get someone fired or deep platformed or punished in a very severe way for something you think they’ve done wrong. The third C is calling in, where you actually are choosing to pursue accountability, but instead of using anger, shaming, and blaming, you’re going to use love and respect and grace as your method of choice.  The fourth C is calling on, which is created by Sonya Renee Taylor. I love this concept she gifted us and that is calling on people to do better and to be better. So you’re neither calling them in nor calling them out, both of which require an investment of time, but you can call on people to do better. Like my favorite calling on sentences to say, look them straight in the eye and just say, I beg your pardon, and then just wait for them to figure out what they said, that evokes that reaction. And quite often they’ll walk their words back because it didn’t give the reaction that they wanted.  Oh, and I should mention that calling in, by the way, wasn’t even a really original concept by me. A trans man named Lone Tran invented that in 2013, I just happened to run across it after I started writing my book.  The fifth C is calling it off. You get a chance to decide whether you want to go down that rabbit hole. You don’t have to engage either online or in person. You could call it off temporarily, like saying, I don’t have the bandwidth to deal with this right now. Can I get back to you? Or you can call it off permanently and say, I will never want to have this conversation with you. So you can call it out, cancel, call in, call on or call it off. So I teach people the range of options that they have. And then I teach startups sentences that you can memorize that are easy to learn for you to use each of those options. So like I just used, “I beg your pardon?”  You can use a calling in sentences if somebody says something you think is a little problematic, you can say, “That’s a very interesting perspective. Tell me more.” You’ve not agreed with it, but you’ve invited them into a conversation instead of a fight. So that’s a great calling in sentence, “Tell me more.” Or if you want to call them out, like if I got” in front of someone who tried to claim that the election was stolen or something like that, I might think, “I can’t believe that you persist in parading how diluted you are right now.  Are you okay? Yeah. What is going on with you to make you feel that you’re smarter than the rest of the evidence that’s out here? What is your need to be the smartest person? Against scientists, against evidence, against everything. What does that say about you? And do you need some help?” That’s it. And then calling it off is like I said, those words seconds, “I don’t have the time for this”, or  “I’m not in an emotionally healthy enough space for this conversation” or, any kind of thing. So I teach people to start up sentences like that, and then we practice, but we practice in different ways because remember I was talking about self-assessment. The first thing that I have people revisit in their life is how mistakes were handled when they were children. As if you were severely punished and shamed for making mistakes as a child, then you think it’s quite normal to punish and shame others for making a mistake. But if you were counseled and forgiven for making a mistake and taught what you could learn from making that mistake, then you’re predisposed to offer that same grace to others. And so the question becomes, do you want to continue the patterns that you learned in your childhood or as an adult, do you want to make different choices?  I love connecting it to that because that goes back to what you were saying about self-assessment and self-evaluation. And then you’re not in the fight. You are pointing them inward. You have more choices. There is no law that says you have to act out the patterns of your childhood. You have to know what they are. And secondly, decide whether they’re working for you or not working for you. This is so great. And I love how practical your teaching is. So going back to the calling in, so when you say tell me more about that, and they do, and they explain to you how the election was rigged or how January 6th was a natural uprising of when your government is, whatever the thing that they believe, so they answer you, so then what? So then what can I ask them again? How do you feel about that? And what do you think you should do with those feelings. And has that perspective helped you grow closer to your children or helped you get along with your neighbors better? How is that actually working for you now? That’s again, you, and then I have one strategy that I call my uncle Frank strategy that I’ve used a lot. My uncle Frank, who’s neither my uncle nor named Frank, he’s still alive, so I have to protect the living, has a way of blowing up every family gathering by saying something racist, sexist, homophobic, or transphobic, because that’s uncle Frank’s way of getting a attention. And I used to go for the bait all the time. I was the kid that was always arguing with uncle Frank. I couldn’t help but give him the attention he wanted because I wanted to prove how wrong he was. And finally, I changed my tactic. And I told him, “Uncle Frank,” I said, “Uncle Frank, I know you’re a good man. And this got him, that I know you’d run into a burning building and you rescue someone who was in danger if you could, and you wouldn’t care whether they were gay or an immigrant or black. I know that Uncle Frank, I know you that way. So tell me, Uncle Frank, are you the good Uncle Frank that I know you are the bad Uncle Frank that had those words come out of your mouth.” “Tell me which Uncle Frank I actually have”. So that’s neither calling him in nor calling him out. That’s calling on him to tell you who he wants to be in his niece’s eyes. And it’s really a way of letting him say face. So that he can acknowledge it. But you’ve already given him the platform or don’t go in this direction, like you’re guiding him, this is who we want to see, not “I can’t believe you said that!” period.  It builds upon the absolute fact that most people think better of themselves than they display in the world.  I was thinking that appeals to their narcissism. So it first reinforces that good perception they have of themselves and make it work for you as opposed to pouncing on the bad stuff. Adrian Renee Brown says it beautifully. He said that what you pay attention to grows. So when you’re dealing with those problematic people, if you pay attention to the problematic aspects, that’s what they’re going to focus on. But if you pay attention to what you know is good about them, maybe they’ll focus on that instead and strengthen that muscle, that understanding, and live into that definition of self, more than the other one.  It’s like giving people what to do. Not what not to do. Exactly. I want you to think about how to be the guy who would be that selfless in rescuing somebody every day in life? Because the way I want America, I want my country to act as a natural disaster happens every day because we are so warm and so giving and so compassionate after a natural disaster. And as soon as the crisis was over, we go back to our normal selves. I want us to act like that natural disaster happens every day towards each other. Because you’re saying it’s there. It’s already there. We don’t have to grow it.  I’m a flood, Noah’s flood, it’s a habit. It’s there. All we have to do is build upon it as a normal way to be It’s so brilliant. And this is applicable, there’s going to be therapists from all over the world, listening to this. This is applicable to us, to our clients. You are just doing therapy on the world. I’m telling you.  I wish! I wish. I’m telling my own therapist because I’ve been in therapy for the last 41 years. But I’m convinced that people are much better than we’ve allowed them to be, and we’ve encouraged them to be, and I’ve seen the ugliest things humanity can do to each other. Both as a rape survivor, a director of a rape crisis center, a deep program or white supremacy. As specialized in looking at human vomit. I’m convinced we can do better because even the most terrible people are complicated and have good sides to them that sometimes you have to dig real deep to find, but it’s there and it gives us an opportunity to help them grow that part of themselves instead of the negative part of themselves. So when you say deprogramming, can you say a little bit more about that? Is it encapsulated in what you’re teaching, or is that a different animal? The deprogramming? It’s all related. My former boss, Reverend CT Vivian had been an aid to Dr. Martin Luther King used to tell us all the time. When you ask people to give up hate, then you need to be there for them when they do. He told me that, I was like, oh, hell no. If the Klan hated black folks, I was all right with hating them back and I didn’t see any problems with that quid pro quo, right? I didn’t start this hate game, but I’m going to win it. But when I worked at the National Anti Klan network, which was renamed the Center for Democratic Renewal, it was part of our mission to help people who left hate groups. And then it became part of my job to work with these people.  And I do need to say I have never seen an example of someone flipping somebody out of a hate movement. I’ve heard stories that it can happen. And, people seem to think that you could have a conversation with a Klansman and suddenly they repent. I’ve never seen any evidence of that. What generally has happened in my experience is that they have their own Epiphanes and they know they’re lost and they don’t know what to do. That they have lived in a nether world of one set of beliefs and they can repudiate some of those beliefs, even, not all of those beliefs, but some of those beliefs, and they don’t know where to go after that.  And what kind of thing causes that kind of an epiphany?  It could be a number of things. In Tennessee, I was working with a group of women whose husbands and sons were in the Klan and they didn’t want their children raised in the hate moment. Not because I think they were repudiating hate, but because they were doing so much criminal activity and they didn’t want their kids going to jail. And they knew in Apalasia, class was going to compromise their relationship to their beliefs, despite their whiteness. So they were scared for their children. And of course, I have a suspect though, I don’t have any evidence, that they were victims themselves. So a lot of domestic violence stuff as the story that they told was not the happy homemaker in a Klan robe story. Another person I worked with son was born with what his plan is not Nazi, but it’s called a genetic defect, a cleft palate, and his Nazi buddies told him that his son needed to be culled from the white race, because he was not a perfect Arion baby. And so that caused him to want to leave the Klan.  Another left because of criminal activities, the FBI was getting too close to some of the things that the Klan chapter was doing so the husband and wife team left.  And so there’s a variety of reasons that people suddenly figure out that these are not the people they want to hang out with it anymore. But it’s rarely because they fell in love with a black woman, or they suddenly discovered that Jewish people were human after all or whatever it is that those are the scripts that Hollywood portrays. Those are not the experiences that I have had.  Maybe other people have. But once they do make that break with the hate movement, usually they’re quickly exiled from that hate movement, if not killed because you don’t just quit the Klan-like the Kalamas club because you’re leaving with a lot of knowledge of criminal activities that people will kill to keep secrets.  And so they ended up calling. Organizations like ours for help to relocate. And we don’t have the FBI’s witness protection program. We can’t help you change identities or anything, but we can use a network of churches and synagogues and temples. And what have you to help you go to another town, get you some clothes, because quite often they leave in the middle of the night, they don’t get a chance to pack up and make an announcement by getting a pod pack planted on their front yard that they’re leaving or anything like that. And so our job is to help them relocate and restart life under their identity, cause as I said, we can’t help you change your name or anything, but we can give you a network of supportive people to help you restart. And just because it had an epiphany on one issue doesn’t mean they’ve had it across the board because a person who is fearful for their children may still be homophobic or antisemitic. And so by working with them, it becomes a process to help them recalibrate their thinking. It’s not like overnight, they just suddenly saw the light. We’re suddenly politically correct on every issue.  You’re also describing, like going through that cult-like behavior that if you stray away, you’re out, which is again, narcissistic, there’s one end. But also, even when you’re not in that, that I think some of the human rights movement is about you have to give stuff up. There’s this idea that you can’t be comfortable. You have to give things up and people don’t want to do that. Unless, like in these cases that you’re describing, it sounds like almost, it was like idiosyncrasy, like happenstance things happened a little bit more than like this internal change. Cause that there’s so much pressure.  Actually. The problem is that whenever you join a cult by definition, you’d have to turn your brain off. The question is how prominently can you keep your thinking from happening? And so it is usually, the ones I’ve heard describe, it’s a trickle. At first, you noticed one thing that doesn’t make sense. And then another thing that doesn’t make sense than another, and then it’s the cumulation of things you can no longer explain to yourself that lead to that mental shift, that mental break.  Yes, it’s really the one incident. But the people that I’ve mostly worked with are fairly intelligent people who just couldn’t take it. People were serving them bigger bullshit sandwiches and inviting them to take bigger bites. And at some point, they gagged.  Do you think that will happen in this tight community that Trump has his arms around?  There’s a difference between true believers and opportunists. Trump is surrounded by a bunch of opportunists and they don’t even believe the crap that they push out their own followers. That’s why they’re vaccinated. And they’re telling their followers not to get vaccinated. That is so clear that they are using the gullibility of their followers. They don’t actually believe the crap that they’re putting. Ted Cruz has a degree from Harvard, I believe. And you’re going to tell me he’s as stupid as he manages to sound every day. I don’t think so. So that it’s opportunistic. It’s not faith. It’s not faith-based. You’re not believing in the cause.  That’s right. So when people are peddling lies because of raw ambition, they’re impervious to the truth. Now I did have this conversation yesterday with a reporter friend of mine. I did an interview yesterday about January 6th and this friend of mine asked me, how could I keep hoping optimism up in such a time? I said, actually I don’t have to be very optimistic or very hopeful because I try to be pragmatic. Think about what our opponents are fighting. They’re not just fighting us. They’re fighting the truth. They’re fighting evidence, they’re fighting history, but most of all, they’re fighting time. Any one of those four forces could kick their assets without any help from anybody else. How the hell are you going to overcome truth and evidence and history and time? That’s what they’re actually up against. Now, a lot of wasn’t going to get harmed and chewed up in the process and I’m sorry that’s happening, but I know victory is certain because of who they have raped themselves. Again, I failed to believe that it is possible for mankind to defeat time, truth, evidence and history. I don’t care what your political perspectives are. I’m just breathing you in right now. I am just breathing in this message. And, it’s not hopeful, It’s just true. It’s just pragmatic. Because then it’s not hopeful, and then I’m going to lose my hope. It’s just, you’re saying this is just the truth. And even your example earlier, when I followed up with what would you say if they answered you, you are saying exactly the same thing you’re saying now, which is, there’s an active process of delusion to be able to stay in the ranks. And that’s just a matter of time when you begin, the sandwich gets too big. Is that right?  Yeah. And at some point, you either got to start thinking again, or just accept that you delight in insanity and that feels safer. So I consider sanity a choice I make every day. I think it was a joy to be able to know that choice and make it.  So is there anything that you would say to the folks that are trying to hold it together?  Again, it’s like this army of people, I really love the idea of everybody’s in their own place, everybody’s flawed. There’s no purity. Nobody’s pure.  I wonder if you could speak to hanging in, something about hanging in or where to go with these pressures, with COVID and with the climate and with all of these things, I just know, I can see it, and I can hear it. Murder-suicide is up. Anything, any negative, anything right now is just terrible. Like we’ve been under this crunch for quite a while and I just see people deteriorating. What are thoughts? I don’t know if any of these things are up or just being more reported? So that’s part of, when I ran a rape crisis center because we advertise the hotline for people to call for help, we could never figure out whether more rapes were occuring and or more reporting was occurring. And so I’m asking the same question when we get into the statistics of how bad things are in life. We need to examine what that data set we’re looking at. Is it more reporting that we’re looking at or more occurrences that we’re looking at? Because we never actually had good baseline data. Sorry. That’s my look that’s my science mind.  You’re being consistent because that’s the whole thing is perspective. And it’s exactly what you said that you would do with folks. You think you know something, but do you really?  But nevertheless, whether it’s more carrots or more reporting, my answer would be the same, to survive this world you need a toggle switch. You need to be able to turn that consciousness on and off. There needs to be a time when you turn when you toggle your consciousness off and you just sink into enjoying Twilight the film, or are you sinking into watching those westerns?  I have a friend of mine, his wife has watched every episode of Gunsmoke for 50 years because that’s how she toggles her consciousness off. Yet, when she toggles it back on she’s a hardcore activist.  You need to give yourself permission not to be woke, not to be on, not to be hyper-critical, not to be able to provide an analysis of all the gender dynamics of every romantic comedy in the world. Sometimes you just have to watch the damn thing and enjoy it! And so that starts with not taking yourself so damn seriously! Again, you are just a link in the chain, you ain’t the entire damn chain. And so it is okay to turn it off and take that vacation to the Caribbean where you just lay on the beach and do some healing. It is okay to gorge on your ice cream one day, because that’s what you feel like doing without beating yourself up because you ate the whole cart. And really, we were forgetting to give people permission to be basically human.  And you speak about it, that it should be fun.  Yeah. If you’re not having fun fighting injustice, you’re doing something wrong. My mentor Leonard is the one that framed that for me, he said, Loretta lighten up! Fighting fascists should be fun, it is being a fascist that’s bad. And I’ve taken that to heart ever since he told me.  Walking through life immersed in a hate movement, that’s the part that sucks! Being immersed in the human rights movement, why am I not having fun? Again, oxygen! Nobody is saying these things. This is not a message that is being delivered very well, or at least very effectively. The message is more the drumbeat, the drumbeat! This is happening. What are you doing about it? And I think that it’s pragmatic to allow people to be themselves in their flawed selves, they’re sometimes on and sometimes off, sometimes doing the right thing, sometimes not.That’s the most powerful thing that you can do. It keeps people engaged instead of dissociating and just never watching the news again. You’re saying toggle, toggle it down, turn it down a little bit, turn it up a little bit.  It’s a come as you are invitation where you really mean it.  Ah, it’s so inviting. It’s wonderful. Is there anything else? There are a couple of books that you’ve written. Reproductive Justice is an anthology that I edited with a team of four other writers. And then I wrote Reproductive Justice with Ricky Solinger. And then Undivided Rights, which is also a book on reproductive justice that I wrote with other writers. So the calling in the book is my first solo fully authored book. And even then I’m overstating it, even though I’ve written, the 500 pages have been influenced by centuries of history, the great mentoring I’ve had with a lot of elders who didn’t give up on insufferable me. That is really wonderful and we’re going to put all of those in our show notes. Are there other resources that you might guide people towards?  I love everything that Adrian Marie Brown has written. She is one of those young people that I’m awed by. I think Adrian’s 20 or 30 years younger than me and everything she writes, I eagerly buy and inhale, like it’s, one way that I called Adrian, I say, some writers take your breath away, Adrian gives you your breath back. That’s how strong she is. So I love reading her work. I don’t agree with everything she says, but then I’ve never read anybody I totally agree with. But that I take from it, that which I find resonant and useful. I would recommend it to everybody.  I found some other resources that you had mentioned on another page. And so we’re going to fill the show notes up with all kinds of things that you can do if you’re motivated by this and you’re interested. I also like human rights as the umbrella and that there are these different wings if you will. But that’s the one mountain. That’s the north star. There are many pathways up the human rights mountain. You might go on the LGBT path. I’m going to go on the racial justice path or the disability path. Women’s rights, That’s right. We’re all in the same movement climbing the same mountain.  I love that. That’s again a calling in that we’re all in this together. Everybody can be differentiated and different and there’s room for argument about what’s the best way. I hope we argue. Cause it’s only in that crucible of argument that we arrive at the best solutions! Group think is actually the poorest thinking humanity can do. It’s so lovely. And if people wanted to reach you how would they do that? At my website LorettaJross.com.  All right. That sounds good. So we are going to fill this up. The level of resource and the idea of giving this breath is just so powerful. And I can imagine people that are listening to this that are feeling the same thing. And, I know, you’re leaving this wanting more. So that would be where to go. You would go to therapistsunsensored.com/episodes, and you’ll find this there, and that will link you to many of these resources. If you don’t go directly to Lorettajross.com. Also, we would highly advise you to get these books. Is your new book out yet? No, it will be out in the fall of this year. Simon and Schuster signed the contract with me last April and I didn’t realize quite at the time that it meant that they controlled this release date, which is fine, cause they want to build a market up for it. No, I’m working with a lot of vice presidents there. So they’re giving it a good investment in time and attention. And the other thing I want to appreciate about them is that they pointed out when I was concerned about the delay in publishing the book, and I had largely written it before we signed the contract, they said, Loretta, this is an evergreen topic. Do you think people are going to stop calling each other before we get the book out, and I said, you got a point there.It will be timely. Let go of that anxiety.  Is there any reason they’re holding it back?  It’s their developmental process, I talked to their marketing team, their young adult team. They have a whole strategy involved in it. I appreciate not getting that high level. And, you do have a Ted talk that is fantastic. And it’s relatively recent. So I would really direct people to go directly to the Ted talk and there are other YouTube videos out there and there are more presentations that you’ve done. We’ve just only scratched the surface. Yes, the people in charge of social media, they keep posting stuff. And then I have a team that makes sure that stuff is up there. And I’m old school, I’m almost 70 years old. So I keep telling people my twat don’t tweet, but that doesn’t mean I don’t know anything about social media, too. Young people handle it.  That is wonderful. But rest to say that the people who are laughing with us and they’re delighted by this, there’s a lot more of Loretta Ross out to be found and we just scratched the surface. In particular, I loved, and sent to my son, your commencement address. That was just wonderful. And so there’s lots more, please find her, follow her, buy her books. And is there anything else you want to direct folks to do? Again, have fun joining the human rights movement. Because we are stronger than anybody who thinks that they can defeat our dream of human rights for everybody.  That’s a perfect place to end. Thank you so much for spending time with us. I know that you don’t always necessarily do these interviews and things like that, or may, I don’t know, but I was just so grateful that you said yes.  You’re right, they’re getting rarer because my publicity team says that I make myself too accessible. And so what I used to give away and just like the professionals are saying Loretta, clam up till after the book is out there. They’re really monitoring me now, which is fine. But what they get wrong is that I’m doing this to build a movement. That’s right. You’re doing this because it’s profitable for you. You’re helping me out, but don’t get my motives mistaken for your motives. I’m doing this to build a movement. That’s why I started that and I’m still on that, even though that means that you’ve got this intellectual property, going off, that is not my motive. And I can’t become that just because it works for you. That is fantastic. Love it. So thank you. Thank you for that.  Yeah, but they are getting less frequent, not because of the profit thing, because I just have to finish the book by April, but my available time is actually getting more limited to fulfill the contract. That’s wonderful. Having the privilege of the mic and having this kind of an audience, is there anything that you would say to me or to people that have just some privilege of a voice?  I can basically say anybody that makes you feel bad about being yourself, doesn’t have your interest at heart. Trust that, we all have something to learn. We all have places we could grow, but anybody who really cares for us is going to offer that through the lens of love and respect. If they offer it in any other way, it really ain’t about you. It’s about them. That’s how I really feel. I teach through that lens. Teaching should not be punishment. Teaching  should not be hazing. Teaching should be the joy of learning. So I’m not letting you have fun learning, I’m doing something wrong. And I teach a course called white supremacy and if we are not having fun talking about white supremacy, I’m doing something wrong.  We sometimes talk about light bulbs, like those light bulb moments and I’m there just sparking through this whole interview and through, I just know people are like, oh yes. Oh yes.Well, we will do anything to help promote your message. Thank you for being on our show. This kind of good content only goes so far as those who hear it, so the best thing you can do for us is to share it and talk it up.  Word of mouth is the most reliable way to spread the word about growing security.  In that vein, ratings and reviews help people find us as well.  We are so glad you are here with us.  Thank you.

Psychedelic-assisted therapy (PAT) means just that, a medicine used as a tool to deepen the possibilities for healing.  It’s not the drug, it’s the therapy. NOTE: Find TU listener activities, upcoming meeting etc on FB HERE Psychedelic-assisted therapy: We don’t have to rely on the medicine work to do everything. “Plant medicines aren’t designed to fix us. They help us recognize our truth and lead us towards the next steps we have to take to heal. This is our work to do. When we become clear with who we are, we can bring our shadow into the light.” – Dr. Dan Engle  The use of psychedelics is slowly gaining favor as part of a holistic approach and is radically changing the way we think about therapy and psychiatric medicine. In this episode, Sue Marriott LCSW, CGP discusses the therapeutic use of psychedelics with Dr. Dan Engle, the Founder and Medical Director of Kuya Institute for Transformational Medicine in Austin, Texas. Dr. Engle shares his vision for transformative medicine and how he sees the industry moving forward as it reforms into a transformative model. Tune in and learn more as we explore treatment for various debilitating mental health issues with powerful ancient molecules. Psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy (PAP) refers to professionally supervised use of ketamine, MDMA, psilocybin, LSD and ibogaine as part of a carefully elaborated psychotherapeutic process. Clinical results so far have shown safety and efficacy, even for “treatment resistant” conditions, and far superior effects than traditional therapies alone, or traditional medicines such as antidepressants.  In addition, the treatment is short-term and typically has little side effects or risk with careful and adequate screening. If you enjoy the excellent content in our episode library please support the show by joining our online community! Click here This treatment isn’t new, actually, the use of plants to achieve non-ordinary states of mind for wellbeing is ancient.  But there has been a renaissance in exploring non-ordinary states as route to healing and the PAP model opens up interesting questions regarding diagnostics and explanation of psychological distress.  It may serve to advance novel explanations for mental disorders and their treatment, in a way that considers social and cultural factors, historical adversities, and acute trauma.     Show Notes: 00:00:00 Introduction 00:02:11 The Kuya Institute And Community 00:06:41 Sparking An Interest In Psychedelics 00:12:45 Understanding Body And Mind 00:20:03 Exploring The Effects Of Psychedelics 00:28:51 Therapeutic Accessibility Of Psychedelics 00:31:04 Innovating Treatment Models 00:33:21 Ketamine And Its Usage 00:35:11 Ketamine Safety And Psilocybin 00:38:50 Psychedelic States And Safety 00:41:13 The Conscious And Subconscious Mind 00:43:46 The Role Of Facilitators 00:47:34 Tuning Into The Subconscious 00:50:40 MDMA Focused Therapy 00:57:58 MDMA And Altered States 01:01:56 MDMA Side Effects 01:11:26 Contacting Dr. Engle Complete transcript published below, keep scrolling. Important Links: Psychedelics and Neuroplasticity – A Systematic Review Unraveling the Biological Underpinnings of Pychedelics Sept 2021, Psychiatry MAPS – Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies Kuya The Second Brain My Stroke of Insight MAPS Organization A Dose of Hope Jill Bolte Taylor – Past Episode Anatomy of an Epidemic Trey Ratcliff – Past Episode DrDanEngle.com FullSpectrumMedicine.com ThankYouLife.org About Dr. Dan Engle Dr. Dan Engle has a unique background in integrative psychiatry, neurocognitive restoration, peak performance medicine and psychedelic research. Dr. Dan unitizes his profound knowledge and experience to help individuals shift from illness and trauma to health and happiness. Dr. Dan’s trans-disciplinary approach focuses on healing all aspects of the mind, body and spirit in order to help individuals achieve optimum health, wellbeing and sustained fulfillment. Dr. Dan is the Founder and Medical Director of Kuya Institute for Transformational Medicine in Austin, Texas; Full Spectrum Medicine, a psychedelic integration and educational platform; and Thank You Life, a non-profit funding stream supporting access to psychedelic therapies. Dr. Dan is the author of The Concussion Repair Manual: A Practical Guide to Recovering from Traumatic Brain Injuries, as well as his new book, A Dose of Hope: A Story of MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy. TYou are invited: JOIN OUR ONLINE COMMUNITY HERE  Support the show AND get access to many cool neuronerd things… including your own private feed that has no ads and tons of extra episodes.  Transcript: Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy With Dr. Dan Engle Dan Engle MD, Author of Dose of Hope, A Story of MDMA Assisted Psychotherapy Edited (for clarity): Welcome aboard, Dr. Dan. We’re so happy that you agreed to join us. Thanks for having me on, Sue. It’s going to be so nice. We’re going to have an expert who’s going to walk us through the state of the state, the state of the art, what’s happening with psychedelic medicine, in particular with an eye towards the medicines that are in the queue, psilocybin, MDMA and ketamine, which is the legal one at this point. Would you mind going ahead and jumping in and doing a little warm-up here? Get people oriented to the subject, partly. Say a little bit about yourself, where you are, who you are and a little bit about your background. You’ve got an interesting story that will lead us right into some of these conversations. I’m happy to do that. Now, I’m in Austin, Texas, back home. I’m from San Antonio and Austin. We’re neighbors. We’re right down the road from each other. Next time we’re having this conversation, it’ll probably be in person. That’d be awesome. I opened up my center, Kuya. It’s already been beautiful to see the community build and start. We’re wanting to reform and rebirth the new vision for what mental health and mental centers can look like. We have an excellent suite of services. We have a beautiful facility and those two things still sit on top of the fertile, rich foundation, which is our community. The way we’ve practiced mental health, psychology, psychiatry for the last many decades has been primarily in isolation. When a person goes to see their therapist or their physician, it’s usually in isolation. It’s not connected to a community. We wanted to reform that. Our community is based on a transformational model where everybody is going through their own process of transformation through their own experience and through their own lens so the community starts to be able to support itself and lift everybody up. When you say community, what do you mean specifically? You can have people go through mystical states and experiences, whether it’s through the veil of a near-death experience or a spontaneous realization. We have a 10,000-square-foot facility, 2,000 square feet of that are community space. Do you mean the Austin Community or your community of clinicians or patients? All of the above. We see clients from all over the country and the sweetest services because we have a 20% sauna, cold plunges, float tanks, an IV lounge and a tea and tonic bar. We have a lot of associated therapeutics that we can put around the medicine work to support the medicine work doing its job even better. We don’t have to rely on the medicine work to do everything. We wanted to build this around a community model. Principally around our clients and our patients coming in the door but also around the recognition that many people who come to see us are going to become, to heal a particular constellation of symptoms depression, anxiety, PTSD, addiction, pain. Our services are very good. We have an excellent track record and we’re tracking all of our data. We want to be able to tell them not only the new story of this transformational medicine approach. We want to show the data because the story moves culture but data moves science. When we can show the data and showcase not only the people’s transformational experience, we can say, on paper, it makes sense that people would be feeling better because their chronic inflammatory markers are down. Their organic etiology and cause for their longstanding depression has been identified and worked towards resolution whether it’s an adrenal issue, a thyroid issue, gut dysbiosis, immune system dysregulation, particularly in the midst of COVID or a variety of other non-organic issues, lifestyle issues, sleep dysregulation, toxicity and the diets. These are all part of the assessment that we have to look at because of this beautiful, complex biopsychosocial spiritual machinery. If we’re only looking at the neurochemistry from the standard of care psychiatric model then we’re losing the majority of the whole picture. Our suite of services is very good. In regards to the healing orientation, when we put people through our protocols. That same suite of services is very good for people that are also optimizing because if somebody doesn’t necessarily have a thing that they want a “heal or fix,” is still good to do a sauna, a cold plunge, float, get IVs, optimize and make sure that the dietary approach that you’re using is good for your physiology and your constitution in the right time of the year. The balance of your micro macronutrients. All of this has the opportunity to tell a different story, which we’re all in the hairless monkey suit going through our process of transformation, doing it a little bit differently. When we can combine optimization and a healing community then, by osmosis, it allows people that have been stigmatized and labeled with chronic refractory conditions and diagnoses and illnesses that they’re always going to have it. It offers us the opportunity to tell a different story. When you say IVs, what is in the IV? What’s happening? Is it ketamine? Is it something else? No, we don’t use ketamine in an IV administration. We do our ketamine therapy in intramuscular injections and the majority of it. Also some in sublingual or oral trophies or rapid dissolving tablets. IV ketamine has the benefit that you can stop it. If somebody starts having a freakout or bad trip, you can stop it. For us, as a transformational community, I’m curious about that. If somebody has a bad trip, that’s excellent information that their stuff is right on the surface. Let’s understand that further. Let’s create an opportunity with the right set and setting with excellent facilitation to recontextualize a person’s ability to lean into that thing that’s most uncomfortable because there’s so much opportunity for growth there, as you know. It gets into like the mechanism for healing. There are such great results that are coming out of this. As a matter of fact sometimes I get worried. People can become almost evangelical about it. Like, “Everyone, put it in the water.” I worry about that. As a group therapist, if there’s only one note being hit, probably something’s being missed. However, there are fantastic numbers and effectiveness being shown with these medicines. I am curious because they’re all a little different. I want to get into the details of the different psychedelics. To understand, first of all, say you have one person and they have a choice of the different psychedelics. What should they be considering? How do you see them used differently in general? You have, say, the medicines and what are the populations that you feel like each one speaks to? I want to understand how does this works? How is this so effective? Those are a couple of questions there. I’ve had a long history of intermittent depression. I was probably kindled for that. There’s a long history of depression in my family, suicide, real intense dysregulation. That layered on top of half of a dozen severe concussions throughout snowboarding soccer, diving and breaking my neck and all of the different things. I had an organic etiology as well. No one that I saw, even though all my medical training. I got into psychiatry and neurology because I was fascinated by the fields. I was in my neurology training when I had my 6th concussion. My 5th one was when I broke my neck. That was three weeks before medical school started. I started med school in a big halo, which was an awesome orientation to get into psychiatry and neurology. A few years later, in my neurology training, I had my last concussion. Because of the way I hit, I knew it was bad. I put an 8-inch crack in my helmet. There was this internal voice that said, “You crossed the line.” I was like, “That didn’t sound so good.” Sure enough, over the coming weeks and months, I started having the severe post-concussive syndrome. I asked my neurology attending physicians. I said, “I got pretty wrecked. Now my sleep is dysregulated. My mood is dysregulated. I can’t think. I feel like I’m thinking through the mud. My attention, focus, concentration, short-term memory, shifting sets. All of that. My executive function was lousy.” They all said the same thing. They said, “You had a concussion. You have post-concussive syndrome. Go home, get some rest. We hope it gets better.” I’m like, “That’s all you got? Wow.” We have excellent diagnostics and crappy therapeutics. I got in the lab and I wanted to understand neurorehabilitation. That dovetailed with my work with Ayahuasca. It was the first time that I felt my brain come online. I closed my clinic at the time. I moved down to the jungle. I lived in the jungle for a year cleansing with Ayahuasca. I have this understanding and appreciation of the hardware sciences and neurology and the software sciences, psychology. That’s essentially what we built at Kuya as a transformational medicine center where we bring both together, the hardware and the software. To answer your last question about IVs, the IV therapeutics that we offer are vitamin and mineral cocktails, peptide therapies. We were working with exosomes and stem cells, particularly for people who have concussive issues and need more of that neurorehabilitation and the accelerated scaffolding for neurologic repair. The FDA has cracked down on biologics and that includes exosomes and stem cells. You must think of stem cells as like seeds for new growth. They start to support regenesis. What was the other thing, exosomes? Exosomes are the fertilizer for that growth. They’re their signal messengers but anyway, we can’t do that as much. What we do is we use all the therapeutics that are appreciated in the space to be regenerative performance tools. We put that around a person’s experience of where they’re are orienting to the goals that they have and if they’re coming from a healing community then largely, they’re going to be desiring to heal from a variety of conditions. If they’re an organic etiology, I also have historically had chronic cytomegalovirus and Epstein-Barr Virus. My titers have been high if I’m stressed and I’ve done a lot of travel or it’s in the winter months. I’m not getting as much vitamin D. When those titers flare, I know I have a higher predilection towards depression. We know those two viral chronic viral infections lead to chronic severe depression. This is an example and because of how I hit, when I dove off a pier and hit a sandbar and my centrally broke C5. I was total upside down. My brain smashed into my skull plate and vice versa too. What happens then is you have pituitary dysregulation and you have an issue that looks like hypopituitarism. It’s primary hypopituitarism because the primary injury is in the pituitary gland but it looks like hypothyroidism, low adrenal glands and low testosterone. We’ll continue to create new therapeutic models to be able to offer the medicine at scale and yet not compromise clinical excellence, efficacy, and safety. All of that, if you’re looking at the labs and you’re not looking at the brain, you’re going to be like, “All these hormones are low. Let’s give you hormones.” That’s not the issue. The glands are fine. The brain can’t tell those peripheral glands how to work. You have to repair the brain at the central axis. Not to get too complicated but this is an example of where we’re going in medicine, which is the appreciation that we’re this integrated system. You can’t separate the mind from the brain like you can’t separate the person from the environment. Gabor Maté’s legendary quote and it’s true. We have to understand the complexity of the human organism. That includes looking at our brains, doing brain map systems and taking a good history and physical exams and understanding. Also, there’s a great article in Forbes magazine I was reading about the reformation of the entire mental health system. I don’t know that we need the entire reformation because it’s hardware and software together. What they’re saying is maybe many of what we call mental illnesses aren’t illnesses at all. They’re adaptive responses. There’s a lot of truth there. Depression and anxiety can be an adaptive response, especially when we understand what the core issue is, the core wound or the core trigger. That’s where medicine comes in. The last thing I’ll say about the IV suite is, people can optimize with IV therapeutics. Oftentimes, people who have chronic mental health challenges or psychological constellation of symptoms, oftentimes they have chronic inflammation and that can look like or be stimulated by a variety of different things, including gut dysbiosis, not having awesome diets, GI inflammation. We know in Michael Gershon’s book, The Second Brain like the neuroendocrine axis also includes this digestive understanding and appreciation. For example, most of the serotonin is produced and stored in the gut. It gets transferred to the brain. Our serotonin, which we understand like modulates mood. Most of that comes from the gut. If your guts are off, everything’s off like sleep. Sleep is off, everything’s off. We have to understand how all of this stuff fits together. We recognize, we start giving people IV vitamin mineral cocktails, they start feeling good because it mainlines a lot of the building blocks to optimize neurochemistry and neuro-regulation. All of that then brings us to medicine work. When we understand and we have this hardware framework, the brain and body, physiology framework then we can identify what those organic etiologies are. In complement to that, we want to understand what the software etiologies are, what I would use software meaning like mind, heart and soul. The mind orientation, essentially, if we’re thinking about it as a computer, that’s where we’re receiving all of our belief systems, identification fields, expectancies around who we need to be in the world to get the love that we want. This interpersonal neurobiology starts through that mental filter. We come into life born to bond and what was our early imprinting like. What are our attachment styles like? What was the safety arena? If I look at my own experience, I was born six weeks early. I spent the majority of my first year in and out of the hospital on a respirator because my lungs weren’t developed and they didn’t have surfactant as a common treatment back then. If I think about my little self and this little incubator thinking, “What the hell is happening? I’m in this sterile environment. I want some warm connection. I want mom. I want the boob. I want all of that connection time.” We can tell a story about what that might look like and what that might mean. All of these are just stories. We try and understand to the best of our ability what’s underneath the hood but until you get into work that’s able to uncover the subconscious material, we’re telling stories and it’s all like guesswork. What are the processes that get into the subconscious and the superconscious? Let’s say the narrative is mostly a horizontal process but the medicine work is a vertical process. We get into the subconscious, the deep soul-level work and the superconscious like our relationship to God source and spirit and all of that. The experiences offer us that degree of self-examination. In this day and age, the number one in the pole position is psychedelic therapy. It’s because it’s becoming more appreciated, interesting. The data’s super freaking good. When held in the right sentence, setting psychedelic therapy is head and shoulders above the standard of care as far as efficacy rates and safety rates for that matter but it’s not new to the extent that we’ve been exploring psychedelic and transcendent states since we were more hairy monkeys, banging rocks around the campfire. Simon goes back in the foster records a million years. There’s evidence that we’ve been exploring altered states for psilocybin for close to 200,000 years when we transitioned from Homo erectus, Homo sapiens. There may have been part of this exploration and connection with transcendent states through mind-altering substances that helped us get to where we are. We do have biology and a need for transcendence and exploration. Psychedelic therapy is in the new modern context is standing on the shoulder of the evidence and the experiences that have come before. That being said, psychedelic therapies are one way to look deeper under the hood. Psychedelic-assisted therapy: It’s amazing to get under the hood when the ego can just rest its defense mechanisms long enough to have some flexibility and curiosity about actually becoming intimate with those things that we fear the most. You can get to that level of exploration in altered states through meditation, fasting, Vision Quest, holotropic breathwork, hypnotherapy. I studied hypno for years before I was even aware of psychedelic therapy because it’s amazing to get under the hood when the ego can rest its defense mechanisms long enough to have some flexibility and curiosity about becoming intimate with those things that we fear the most. I was a lot. No, you’re covering some great stuff. I can feel we’re working up to mechanism and how things change. I was speaking to Jill Bolte Taylor. She’s the woman who did My Stroke of Insight. She’s the neuroanatomist at Harvard that watched her brain shut down. One of the best TED Talks of all time. Twenty-eight million views. Part of what that means is there’s something she’s saying that people are drawn to. In the middle of the conversation, what happened to her was her left brain, her default mode network went offline. I had the association to psilocybin or to the psychedelics as far as mechanisms. Being able to quiet the conscious, the separateness, the different like, “I am me, you are you,” and all the chatter. You’re right. There are different ways of getting at this. We don’t want to have head injuries, which by the way, in some of your exploration, I was wondering, “Did you ever look at your high risk-taking behaviors and unconsciously, you may have been acting out with all those head injuries?” I bet I’m not but it is interesting. My sense was that there is something about the language that is like getting around, getting to, allowing. There’s something about a release in order to gain access to these other parts of our mind that are not supported in our Western culture that are devalued by our left thinking brain. Not to make it simple as left and right but the idea of the literal, logical, linguistic part of the mind that can think that it knows everything, what I roll at the idea of mysticism and things like that. The mystical is, in my experience, where the magic is. It’s real. You can’t measure it but you can’t deny it. It was Einstein who was talking about the mystical being the language of consciousness that permeates all life, all experience. We can’t be removed from it, nor should we try to. Nor should we try and support medical systems that are divorced from the appreciation of the mystical. In my medical training, we made that wrong. Animism was this old archaic belief of tribal cultures that has no place in modern society. Not only did we shun it, we made it wrong. We developed a pathology around it and it’s unfortunate. We’re in the midst of trying to rehab all of that. The mystical experience, part of that magic that is a little scary to the medical establishment and paradigm because we haven’t been able to quantify it and everybody’s experiences are a little bit different. You can have people go through mystical states and mystical experiences whether it’s through the veil of a near-death experience or a spontaneous realization. One of my early mentors, he had a clinic that was oriented around people having spontaneous awakenings that they didn’t know how to contextualize and what might that look like. He was studying more of an Indian perspective, an Ayurvedic perspective and there’s something called the noughties and the energy system from a Chinese medicine perspective that would be the Meridian system. The energy centers in the body all connect to the brain and they go out the top like if you look at the energetic lines of the Earth. It’s set up as a tour where we field to like a donut that energy comes in the North and up back around through the South. Our systems are like that too. The energy comes in and it can go up. Sometimes you can have one of these spontaneous awakenings and that can look and feel like people are going crazy because it might mean like now your antenna is tuned to a radio station that you’re not familiar with to listen to. It might even be our own internal voice. It could be the voice of our ancestors or of information. Classically, we would call those auditory hallucinations and psychotic. If you have that for too long then you have schizophrenia. If it causes too much discomfort then we’re going to label that even with more pathology and a requirement for medication. You might have to stay on the medication for your entire life. There are a few things that need to be taken into consideration when you think about medicine work, first and foremost is legality and safety. If you look at, it’s Robert Whitaker and the book Anatomy of an Epidemic. Our outcome measures for schizophrenia treatment are worse now than they were a hundred years ago, even in the advent of all of our fancy pharmaceuticals. That’s not to say pharmaceuticals don’t have their place. Like if somebody’s standing on a ledge or if somebody is a danger to themselves or others because they have an experience that they can’t manage then yes, let’s use those but let’s understand that we should only do that while we’re looking at the underlying causative factor and reasons for that. All of that to peel it back and say, “In the midst of taking a more whole person perspective,” and what I would say interpersonal or if we talk about like concentric circles. Intrapersonal within, interpersonal between people and transpersonal like our relationship with life and God itself. When we take it from that perspective then we see, we have to appreciate that the medicines have an opportunity to open up each of those spheres. If somebody comes into an engagement or an experience without knowing what’s possible then it can freak them out. Even ketamine therapy is done in an IV environment where you try and put people to sleep and ride the default mode network reset and the inflammatory lessening that happens when we clear out the glymphatic system in the brain. The body has a lymphatic system. The brain has a glymphatic system. It might be that ketamine is very good for shunting out some of that intracerebral inflammatory load. It’s a great neurologic reset but there’s also psychological opportunity. Ketamine, psilocybin and MDMA are this triads now because ketamine is legal. MDMA and psilocybin are going to become legal early to mid-2023. They all have different mechanisms of action, different approaches and different felt experiences. What ketamine is doing is it’s offering us the opportunity to solidify our systems, tell a different story and get people in the collective, rehabilitate the propaganda of the war on drugs, which never worked, which was inaccurate and which is unfortunate because it’s made many of these medicines wrong. That’s taken a while to rehabilitate that entire propaganda approach but it was very effective. Ketamine because it’s legal and because it’s very convenient, slots into these 60 to 90 minutes sessions because that’s about the usual half-life or experience. It’s telling people in the medical collective and the lay-person collective that it can be safe to go through a controlled altered state experience. There might be a therapeutic benefit whether it’s hitting the brain or in the psyche itself. All of that’s helping to reform our relationship with altered states so that when MDMA and psilocybin become legal, there’s more availability, more appreciation and more grassroots demand that these therapeutics not only become legal but they also become available. Now, the way MDMA is set up, when it becomes legal, it’s going to be about $14,000 to $16,000 per person to go through treatment. I was going to bring that up about the accessibility issue that certainly has concerns about that. When we can have the grassroots movement to demand that these therapeutics are not only legal but they’re also available to the best of our ability to support everybody that needs them, that means we need an entire reformation of the mental health care system. We’re in the midst of that. I certainly hope and pray that we are but it’s in my full expectation that’s going to happen too because if you look at the trajectory that we’ve been on. Massive props continue to go out to Rick Doblin and the MAPS Organization for holding the light for so long. All the people are supporting that. They’ve done what they’ve needed to do, which is have these patient conversations and relationships with the feds in order to put the evidence in front of the policymakers so that MDMA moves out of schedule one and discuss. That as part of the issue, though because then you have to have these protocols that are measured and have been proven. In order to get into that protocol, we’re talking about sometimes multiple therapists hours and before and after. The folks that would be able to access that narrows the scope, unfortunately, partly based on how we have to get it out into the world. You lived overseas. You immersed yourself and there weren’t necessarily those protocols but there was a lot of healing that happened with natural healers I imagine. It’s not an unsolvable problem but you still keeping it set in settings, still keeping everything to maximize the benefit of the therapy of it. Not just having a trip but using medicine to do the therapy, to unleash the therapy that you need to do. Psychedelic-assisted therapy: The mystical experience is the part of that magic that is a little scary to the medical establishment and paradigm, because we haven’t really been able to quantify it, and everybody’s experiences are a little bit different. We’ll continue to create new therapeutic models to be able to offer the medicine at scale and yet not compromise clinical excellence, efficacy and safety. That’s what we do. We innovate. We identify crisis situations, see the opportunity, innovate a solution and continue to iterate towards maximization of its efficacy. We’re going to do that with the medicine work. Now, to your point, MDMA support psychotherapy has been done in three sessions, minimum of two. People can opt-in for a third and the vast majority of people do. Let’s call it three sessions and you have three psychotherapy sessions before anything happens and after all of that happens and in between the sessions. That’s 3 treatment sessions, that’s 12 psychotherapy sessions and that’s with 2 therapists. You have the time to compensate the therapist for their time. You have the cost of building in the research parameters and observation parameters and the bureaucratic requirements and administrative infrastructure to make sure all that happens in a good, safe way. You can understand why the costs would be so high. There is a ton of money in psychedelic therapy. There are a few companies now that collectively are inching towards two plus billion dollars individually in evaluation. There’s no lack of interest, demand and money. It’s about understanding, can we move from such a capitalistic orientation towards a service-based orientation to serve the clients that need these treatments. Do that with innovative care and in a reformed medical system that the therapists are reimbursed for what they require for their time that the insurance companies have built this into their model. That small business owners have built this into their models as well. I think we’re going to see a lot of innovation, which is on the leading edge of it now. That’s the macro. That’s the big picture. How about if we go into a little bit more detail. You mentioned ketamine. As a therapist, I’ve worked with people that are doing ketamine treatment and it’s interesting. It’s not even a psychedelic is that right? Ketamine is not a psychedelic. It’s a dissociative anesthetic. It was used in surgical care, the ‘50s and ‘60s. That was originally in veterinarian medicine and it switched over to human care. It seems less about, at least, how it’s been implemented that I can see from my tiny little porthole window. It feels to me like it is more mechanical, like the reset. Sometimes what I’ll say is like, the snow path with your skis and if you can shake the globe so to speak and have new paths that. It clears it out. That’s great. The psilocybin, there’s more of a sense of story that happens with that particular medicine, I believe. Could you say a little bit about the mechanism, about who you know that it’s very good for? Sue and I want to know that everybody reading appreciates that there are a few things that need to be taken into consideration when you think about medicine work. First and foremost are legality and safety. Psilocybin and MDMA and some of the other medicines we talk about are not legal. Ketamine is but it’s prescription only. It does have addiction potential. Anybody that says ketamine doesn’t have an addiction potential doesn’t know what they’re talking about or they have another agenda because it does. It’s understandable and important that it would be a controlled substance. It is being used in the outpatient setting and esketamine nasal spray. We can talk about the efficacy or benefit or approach to that but it’s still like opiate pain medications. They have an addiction potential. We know there’s an opioid epidemic. There’s still a prescription that’s schedule three. Not everybody’s ready to have a medicine experience. There are few contraindications for ketamine and psilocybin. There are contraindications for MDMA. One of those is Heart Rate Variability, not HRV, in regard to what we’re tracking but tachycardia. Elevation of heart rate by 20 to 30 points can happen. Elevation of blood pressure by 20 to 30 points can happen. Anybody who has a severe cardiac history, that needs to be evaluated. That’s some of the physical contraindications. You have the psychological contraindications, even though psilocybin is extraordinarily physically safe, there’s no LD50, which means you could eat a trash bag of mushrooms. Psilocybins are mushrooms, by the way. You can use psychedelic mushrooms, typically. There are 250 plus psilocybin species in North America alone and 60 to 70 species of those are psychedelic. When we’re talking about psilocybin, usually it’s cubensis classically in the literature people are talking about. You can eat a trash bag of psilocybin cubensis and not die. Really good facilitators are conscious of not trying to rescue their clients from their own suffering. You would probably vomit but there’s no LD50 but there’s a psychological component and blast them that happens. If people take a heroic dose, usually 1 to 2 grams dried is a mild dose. 3 to 4 grams, more of a moderate dose. Five-plus grams is usually a higher dose. Some people aren’t ready to go into the deeper waters. The disclaimer that we want to say is that as you’re getting into more specifics, that as you’re reading this, that this isn’t medical advice. This isn’t designed to help you figure out what dose you need to go take. We’re talking in general about the effect of it and the research. We do want to get into what you’re talking about but the thing that was important was that for everybody to use their discretion and that these are serious, they’re complicated medicines that are mostly illegal, probably wherever you’re reading, even though that’s changing. Having said that with discretion, you were beginning to talk about the effect of psilocybin, in particular, and the therapy. What’s the therapy part of it? You can think of it like cars. Cars are tools. They help us go from place to place. I wouldn’t want a toddler driving a car because they don’t have that skill set, nor psychological development. I don’t want many people working with psychedelic states if they don’t have the skillset or the psychological development to be able to come intimately into those places that they fear the most. Oftentimes the people say, “I want to have an experience or I want to start the process.” I said, “Great. I appreciate your eagerness or your curiosity at a minimum. Do you have a meditation practice? Do you have an experience of getting scared or up close and personal with something that feels very uncomfortable? If so, how did you manage it? Have you ever been in a float tank? Do you know what a float tank is? Can you be with yourself in the dark alone? If that’s scary, how do you deal with it? When you get triggered or stressed, how do you deal with that?” There’s a lot to talk about leading in, how to self-regulate, how to come back to breath, how to recognize when the mind goes on a crazy loop, get curious and recontextualize the interest level and move because the ego typically moves away from the discomfort, particularly in our society. We don’t like being uncomfortable and yet, that can be rehabilitated. We can tell a different story. Even the story about somebody getting very uncomfortable and that you were encouraging to be curious about that, rather than to run from it related to the ketamine example from earlier. That is one of the things that’s like is it a roar shock that you have experiences and we attribute meaning to them, that’s a version or is it that the medicine that it’s more direct than that. That it’s not just our association to the visual. That it’s more the unconscious leading us down the path of the things that we need to address, more personally and specifically. It’s well said. We have a conscious mind, a subconscious mind and a superconscious mind. We also have the collective unconscious. There are so many different layers. I would think of conscious like our conversation here is like largely ego-oriented beta way form patterns, the day-to-day. The ego is not bad. It’s how we navigate life. We can go below that into the subconscious. What we don’t know is immediately available but we can investigate with some leading technologies in therapy and looking under the hood with some of these technologies like medicine work. We can start to get underneath that. We also go into the superconscious and some people might call that like soul or high cell for connection to God. Those are all different, by the way but for examples. There are these layers of knowing, like there are layers of being. When we can start to tell a different story, it’s also true that Mike Tyson’s coach was fond of saying, like, “Everybody’s got a plan until you get punched in the face.” I might tell a person like, “It can be helpful to lean into your fear.” They’re like, “Great. I’ll do that thing.” We can get into medicine space and they start freaking out because they got punched in the face. That’s why I’m there or you’re there or the facilitator is there so that we can help them remember like, “Let’s slow it all down. Come back to your breath. We were doing that breath training practice. Do you remember that?” That’s why I put that whole series in a dose of hope, like walking Alex through the self-regulation breathwork practices before we even got deeper into the weeds of any trauma material. In the midst of the trauma, the ego is going to go, “Holy Crap. Run for the hills or fight flight or freeze.” We go into that old neural pattern. Those are the grooves in the snow. When you have somebody who can catch you right in that moment, lovingly and supportively and say, “Let’s take a pause, take a breath, check-in. How do you feel? What do you notice? Can you put a name to it? Can you put association to it? Is there any image? How old do you feel? Where is it coming up in your system? Are there any visual representations, any memories of this?” You start adding the contextual conversation and questions around it. Psychedelics: Anybody that says ketamine doesn’t have an addiction potential doesn’t know what they’re talking about, or they have another agenda because it does. Do you do that during the experience or is that something that you’re doing like that level of questions? It’s such an art and alchemy. It’s like Miles Davis said, “The magic is the space between the notes.” Good facilitators are also conscious of not trying to rescue their clients from their own suffering. One of my teachers told me a long time ago because he would see that I want people to feel better. That’s why I’m in this work. I know a potential key for humanity is healing. He said, “You also have to check the fact that if you’re rescuing somebody from their suffering, you might be robbing them of the greatest teaching.” I was like, “That’s important for me to understand.” I’ve gotten better with the experience of being able to appreciate it like I don’t get excited for people suffering because of how it feels. I get excited about the opportunity for them to come into contact with something that they’d been avoiding for so long. I get excited about what that opportunity could serve for them in their lives. All of those questions, I’m checking whether it’s appropriate to even ask any question because somebody might be itchy, scratchy, squirmy, an intense experience. I might not do a thing because I want them to linger as long as it takes for it to get ripe. As soon as I see them start to run for the hills then I’m going to ask them to pause. If they’re in the midst of and wrestling with, they’re coming to terms with it. It’s like in an ayahuasca ceremony. If you know anything about that, medicine is a purgative. It generates a cleansing process. It’s like, “I don’t want to throw it up. I don’t want to stop that process.” Like if somebody has food poisoning, you want them to get it out. You can think about it the same way as poisoning in the psyche. It’s old trauma, wounds and programs something that’s been festering there and is ready now to be released. Let’s not arrest the process. Let’s support it and be as a humane, compassionate, directive, guiding when necessary. It’s like a midwife supports a natural process. Mom knows cellularly how to deliver this little being. That little being knows cellularly how to move through into the world. The midwives are there to make sure that if a crisis happens then there’s intervention and support. I love that analogy because it also speaks to that the body knows what it needs to do. You’re also describing a good course of therapy and the therapist’s challenge of hanging back and how massively individualized it is that there’s not a formula. In my experience, when I was exploring some of this, for me, to become aware of someone helping was very distracting. I would have to get them out of my brain so that I could have my experience instead of like, “How are they? What’s happening over there?” It’s so individual and that’s what you’re saying. That’s the art of it, feeling your way into what is going to serve them and serve this depth of experience so that they can come to see things, come to know things, let go of things, hold on to things in the way with their own little fingerprint have to do or need to do or have the option, have the opportunity to do. I think of it too like a dance. If there’s a certain rhythm playing and there’s a certain style of dance like flamingo or salsa or two-step or whatever, that has a blueprint but the chemistry shapes how it gets expressed. You have a blueprint in how you perform and offer your psychotherapy. If it’s internal family systems or discognitive behavior or DVT, psychodynamic psychotherapy, all the different blueprints and yet there’s still the alchemy. That’s the magic and some of the mysticism and some of the art. What you’re tuning into isn’t the conscious mind at all. To know, “Do I speak now or do I not?” that’s not a literal, logical experience that also you are tuning in or even like with the dance that you’re describing. Yours is not saying, “Turn now.” It’s the magic of the feeling of it. What about MDMA? A lot of people have done it recreationally. They know how to be at a big dance party and have a good time and sweat a lot. What about the therapy related to MDMA? Also, audience, I want to direct you all to a book that he published. We’re going to say more about that later. It’s A Dose of Hope. It’s in a pill so visually, there’s a pill around it. It’s an interesting, different book because it was co-written with a pseudo name of a person who went through this experience. It is walking you through detail by detail what it’s like and what the healing journey is like. I would highly recommend it. I felt fortunate to be able to get ahold of it and take a look beforehand but it’s very interesting. It’s exciting. Usually if somebody is stuck in a loop, they’re just looking at kind of a narrow sliver of the entire film of that whole context. It’s fascinating in how it works. You’d be hard-pressed to find a better molecule for working with PTSD or trauma or psychological defense mechanisms that hold us back from being our most radically true self. That might be a radically wounded self. Let’s bring that person, that part, into the center of the circle. Give that part the microphone. Let us get curious about what it has to say. When we look at the efficacy of MDMA-supported psychotherapy, phase one trials, 83% cure rate for chronic severe PTSD. There’s nothing like that in psychiatric care, very seldom. That’s a lot of very specific attention, attunement and care with the therapists and the folks that are assisting. How did they sort out? What was the medicine versus what is this intense therapeutic experience? Were there focused therapy? It’s MDMA-supported therapy. It’s not the MDMA alone. That is important. It’s not the trip. The trip opens up the opportunity to get into the deeper part of work. Michael Mithoefer, there were the leads for phase one trials. Their psychological orientation is Internal Family Systems work, IFS parts work. It was Richard Schwartz who wrote this new book called the No Bad Parts. He was the Founder of IFS. I know. We’ve been after him to bring him onto the show. We can’t quite get ahold of him. If anybody knows him, point him our way. That’s a good stag. That’s their zone of genius, doing that IFS work. It doesn’t have to be IFS. It can be a lot of other like body-centered psychotherapy, Peter Levine’s work, Hakomi. There’s a bunch but the way they provide that IFS and part of our training through the MAPS Organization was to watch them in action. They’re Jedis. They know that work well and essentially, it’s this radical playground of compassion that invites whatever part is online to have the stage and the microphone and to say whatever it needs to say. If you’re working with somebody with chronic severe PTSD, that part is probably a wounded part. It’s been hard to access by a person’s sheer will. If you were to tell them to go rescue the part of themselves that was horribly traumatized, they may have been trying to do that subconsciously as a part of their PTSD internal process of healing. That’s why they’ve had flashbacks and nightmares. They keep reliving it in order to play it through but they guard against it because the ego defenses are in place also for an adaptive response. Somebody’s massive trauma, you need to compartmentalize it. Otherwise, it feels too overwhelming. What does the MDMA do or what’s the experience of it? It does three primary things in the brain. It calms the fear center, the amygdala. It increases blood flow and the energetic valence of the prefrontal cortex so you have a better witness perspective and it increases the connection between the prefrontal cortex and the hippocampus. Not only do you have a better witness, you have a better memory of the full context of the experience. Usually, if somebody is stuck in a loop, they’re looking at a narrow sliver of the entire film of that whole context. Psychedelic-assisted therapy: You’d be hard-pressed to find a better molecule for working with PTSD or trauma or in psychological defense mechanisms that hold us back from being our most radically true self than MDMA. What you said is important. I know a lot of our audience will be able to track this and understand what you mean. Saying that again sometimes if I can say it back, it means the information has gotten it. You went fast. I didn’t quite keep up. I don’t know the order but the thing that I got excited about was particularly the hippocampal involvement. The amygdala we get that, we know fear, all that stuff but by stimulating and focusing the prefrontal cortex and the hippocampus and you said that it regulates the fear center so it lowers your fear, it has more focus and clarity. At the same time, the one that got me excited was the hippocampus because the way we talk about it sometimes is the therapist is the hippocampus. We love the hippocampus. We’re pro hippocampus in this community that it strengthens that, it focuses that, it facilitates a connection with the higher minds and the prefrontal cortex. I haven’t heard that before. That’s new to me. That’s exciting. You hit all three. It affects the amygdala, the prefrontal cortex and the hippocampus. Through that, we have less fear, a better witness, better memory. That was the other one. That’s exciting too. Better witness also because you’re not in it that you’re witnessing it and you’re able to objectively not make yourself too big. Not make yourself too little but have this loving, compassionate witness. That’s one of the things associated, at least in my mind, with MDMA-facilitated therapy is love. You’re flooded with oxytocin. I was going to ask you is it oxytocin? You’re flooded with oxytocin, which is this bonding hormone. It’s the hormone that moms release at times of childbirth and lactating. We’re pro oxytocin and pro hippocampus. That’s the summary statement of the differential that happens. PTSD, high amygdala, low oxytocin because most of the time when people are traumatized, it depends on their attachment style if they’re avoidant or they’re anxious. Either case, the oxytocin or the bonding, let’s call it the bonding piece. The bonding piece can oftentimes feel unsafe because it can be cravy like, “I need somebody to help me with this thing,” because that part is so traumatized. It wants safety and security. How do we auto-regulate when we’re stressed? Some of us lean in and over-attach. Some of us lean out and dissociate or get the distance. We’re all going for the same thing, which is safety and security and our attachment. We only become self-realized when we have brought all of our parts home. A lot of that will come up through the process. Now, you have this pro relational oxytocin, sea of curiosity and availability, especially when facilitated by somebody who knows how to do this work, like, “This part is now coming back up to the surface. Can we give that part some space some time to say what it has to say? Let’s learn about it. Let’s get to know it. Let’s validate it.” There’s so much healing. That’s a little different than psilocybin, is that right? MDMA is interpersonal, between you and I, between anybody in the field and between all my little parts, horizontal like 3D, like I scanned the horizon. MDMA is much of this world’s medicine. Psilocybin is much a vertical medicine because it can go deep into the soul level matrix. Where do you think about where mushrooms grow? They grow under the ground. They grow in the dark. It’s a DMT-based molecule. It also goes up to God and you can have these transpersonal, transcendent experiences with it too. It depends on the direction. It can be healing. You don’t get many bad trips with MDMA but you can get bad trips of psilocybin. If a person goes too big too fast or it’s not in the right set and setting. We should say uncomfortable trips. The bad trips happen. For example somebody took a truckload of mushrooms and they went to a party. Probably not the best setting to do deep work particularly if they’ve never worked with that medicine or not done a whole lot of personal work before. I know people that take trucks loads of mushrooms and go to parties and have a fine but it’s usually because they’ve kindled that process. They’re familiar with altered states. They’d done a bit of their own personal work. I’m not a fan of getting in huge altered states and going to parties anyway because it’s a chaotic field. If you’re wanting to do deep personal growth work then have a controlled environment that’s supportive to that therapy. If you’re taking a bunch of alter states medicines and you’re going to a party, that’s a recreational experience. That’s not a therapeutic experience. Not to make either better or worse than the other. It depends on what your intention is. Even the collaboration of what the dose would be is part of the therapy, I believe. They would tend to be a little bit higher than a recreational experience. Is that right? Not necessarily. It depends on who’s partying. If you’re wanting to do deep personal growth work, then have a safe controlled environment that’s supportive to that therapy to get to layers you haven’t experienced yet. I think of some of my friends who go heavy and hard. They love to play big. I can bless them up for their choice. I know they play safe. If they weren’t playing safe, I’d probably be that guy in the stand shaking his finger, like, “You got to watch out,” because it’s not just your experience. You’re affecting everybody else’s field too. It’s about the orientation and the intention going in. The intention for recreational is usually to have an ecstatic state. Maybe a joyful process. Typically, much higher likelihood of having a bad trip. In a therapeutic arena, the orientation is growth. That means we welcome the discomfort into the space so we can look at it, learn from it, grow through it, with it and become more whole as a result. People when they are doing recreational experiences and it’s haphazard and dangerous, that’s a disintegrative process. It’s disconnecting them from what we could describe, essentially their more true essence. People going through a therapeutic process, these medicines are integrative because they’re bringing all the parts home into a greater experience of wholeness, union, self-compassion, like Maslow’s terms, self-realization. We only become self-realized when we brought all of our parts home. One of the exciting things and research is the effect with addiction. I was imagining people reading this and MDMA and psilocybin. Ketamine has the potential for addiction. I wasn’t as aware of that. It’s still mild compared to its therapeutic potency and valence but it’s still important to recognize as a part of the disclaimer. In contrast to the other ones, which I’m not as clear about MDMA but with psilocybin, that’s not typically the recreational use. Psilocybin does not have addictive potential. It’s anti-addictive. Some people might get cravy about the transpersonal state. MDMA can have a bit more addictive potential. That’s part of why it went into schedule one in the early ‘80s because people were using it dangerously. Like raves, parties, dancing all night, not drinking enough water, having electrolyte imbalances, ending up in ER either tripped out or having seizures, like, “There’s this big ecstasy thing hitting the market and hitting the road. Let’s shut it down as we did with all the other psychedelics.” It can be a bit of a physiologic kindling because you’re like, “I could only get to that elevated state by using this medicine. I’m going to keep using that medicine.” You keep chasing the high. There’s a letdown too. Especially if people have a predilection towards depression because you go on these high states, high rise and you have this crash on the other side. The ideal therapeutic container has preparation for neurochemistry. You boil up the neurochemistry, add a lot of antioxidants and on the backside, you replenish with the building blocks to re-establish healthy neurochemistry. That’s one of the reasons that disclaimer was a while ago. This isn’t just going crazy by any stretch but I do imagine if people have been following along this conversation, I can imagine people getting very excited about this. I hate to gather people and get them excited about something and say, “Sorry,” or whatever. There’s nowhere to send. I can’t refer you someplace but there’s a wider thing. If somebody is excited about this, what next? Ideally, we would do what we want to do for everybody, which is not just give them a fish, but teach them how to fish so they’re not dependent on something exogenous or external. Unfortunately, we’re on the Fed’s timeline for the legalization of MDMA. Rick Doblin’s estimate is going to be early to mid-2023. The assignment passed in Oregon as a statewide therapeutic. That was November of 2020. There’s still going to be some bureaucratic, administrative heavy lifting to get that implemented but it’s in motion. Cannabis went legal medically in California many years ago. They were the first ones to do that. There are going to be a lot of states that now come into pushing for statewide legalization. That’s all happening. Ketamine’s legal but those are the big ones. You started though, by talking about your clinic. It’s not only those medicines that they’re like you said, the breathwork, the deep meditation, finding a community that is interested in some of these more mystical states and whole-body healing that you don’t necessarily, it’s not a medicine. That’s why Kuya, we have all those therapeutic sweets. It’s amazing to be able to support people getting into medicine work by working in the float tank because they get used to being with their own process. It’s easier to start regulating your breath consciously and flotation therapy is also an amazing integration tool for ketamine work. When you put together those things with contrast therapy, sauna and cold plunging, now you have an active experience in a consistent practice of regulating your nervous system because it’s the ability and willingness to lean into something that’s uncomfortable. Finding your breath through, particularly in the cold plunge. I’m classically not a fan of cold water. I love being in the mountains and I love skiing and snowboarding but I have not classically been a fan of submerging my body in cold water. It’s a phenomenal practice. It increases norepinephrine and 500%. Only three minutes, like 40 degrees plus or minus. It doesn’t stay up there but as far as an immediate antidepressant effect, cold plunging is better than medication. It is more adaptive and resilience-building than pharmaceuticals. It has this massive anti-inflammatory effect because cryotherapy does that systemically and centrally. When we stack all of these benefits, there’s a very specific reason that I put all of those therapeutics into one umbrella because nobody had done that before. That’s one of the reasons that we’re tracking all our data because we want to be able to tell the news. That’s right. That’s why I went back to it so that there isn’t the frustration of, “Sorry, you’re not going to be able to get this.” I went back to the more well-rounded, all these options. One of the things that was told to me at some point was that conferences and if you’re a therapist, there’s MAPS that are doing training with therapists. There are trials that are happening all over. Anything else you wanted to add? If people are interested in being an MDMA-supported therapist, you have to go through MAPS because they’re the ones in right relationship with the Feds and they’re scripting and offering the training that they know is important. Rick’s been forward-facing in regards to the recognition. We’re going to need a lot of therapists trained up because there’s no lack of demand. I doubt there’s going to be a lack of demand in our lifetimes. Ideally, we would do what we want to do for everybody, which does not give them a fish but teach them how to fish. They’re still not dependent on something exogenous or external. They can develop their own resilience, develop their own skills of self-mastery and transformation. These are tools to help people get to that place to live in. That is such an important point because I think that I didn’t understand that, as deeply as I could have but I do now. It’s a big distinction. In that sense, it’s not the event itself. It’s that event or that experience that frees you to do your therapy and like EMDR. When you learn some things about how to target particular symptoms that you can begin to almost do that, you can begin to like, “If I was an EMDR, what would be my target that I’m working on?” The same thing. If you were going to have an experience like this, what would your journey be? What would your intention be? What would you want to happen? Whether or not you have that medicine, that’s still a good practice. The meditation, the writing, the journaling, taking yourself seriously. I’ve also heard spotlight consciousness and lantern conscious consciousness and they’re both good. It takes some practice, especially with a culture that doesn’t support it of moving into lantern consciousness, which I think is a parallel to what you were saying earlier about the transcendental. Many things to do to deepen our connection to the world and to one another and to spirituality with or without these medicines. I had also interviewed Trey Ratcliff. Are you familiar with him? Super interesting guy. He has a non-medicine, it’s super hard to explain but basically, it’s a 3D video that goes with some meditation apps. If people are interested in that to bring that back up. You have been so generous to share your wisdom and your experience with us. Would you say a little bit about if people are interested in contacting you, what that would look like and where they should find you? Anything else you want to share with folks around your work? Any recommendations? The top of mind these days is Kuya. I’ve been working on opening the center for years. Psychedelics: It’s really amazing to be able to support people getting into medicine work by working in the float tank because they get used to being with their own process. You’re affiliated with multiple centers, I think. I do medically advise to a variety of centers nationally and globally but this is my baby so to speak and we opened. I’m some super-stoked. It’s already showing us the opportunities that we didn’t even recognize before. There’s this organic process of me, doing my part to listen and to not think that I know where this is going. I know that we’ve built something beautiful and amazing. I want to be a student of her and this entire unfolding. I will continue to be an educator and advocate for transformational medicine because I do believe that’s on the horizon and one of our biggest opportunities in mental health. I don’t have all the answers. I am radically continuing to stay in that curiosity field. I wanted to build a center that is of excellence that we can iterate from, bring people too that’s part of the community. I want to create more of the consortium and the think tank of collaborators in the space so that we can have these conversations lifting everybody up. It’s so fun. How would they find you? Kuya.life. Kuya means love in Quechua. Kuya.life is our center. People can also find me at my website DrDanEngle.com. That has a variety of different podcasts and other educational pieces. FullSpectrumMedicine.com. That’s my education advocacy platform specifically for medicine work. I’ve got a lot of free content on there about integration practices, preparation practices. Our nonprofit, ThankYouLife.org is a funding stream to scholarship people for medicine work that wouldn’t be able to afford it themselves. I love that. That’s wonderful. I’ve worried about that. I’m happy. You’ve got your hands on a lot of different things. I was thinking. You’re still snowboarding. The ground is different. You’re going fast. May that continue to happen and what may we have as much fun doing both. Your book, you want to say that as well and where you can get that. A Dose of Hope, it’s a story about MDMA-supported therapy. Essentially, a parable narrative to be able to give the reader a first-person perspective of what it’s like to go through MDMA therapy without having to go into the doctor’s office themselves so to speak. It also is for the clinician too because I wanted to give some core, in my experience, wisdom teachings around facilitating this work but I didn’t want it to be drab and bullet point. These are the things to think about with preparation experience and integration. With kids sometimes you sneak the peas under the mashed potatoes. I wanted to get in some of the good teachings but do it in a way that was entertaining and engaging. Thank you so much. I appreciate you spending time with us and sharing this with us. I know people are going to be very interested. This is all about getting better at healing humans and transforming humans. Want to join us as a Neuronerd but you aren’t as into the audio format / podcasting part, we’ve got you covered.  Our original online platform is still going strong!  Join us through our original platform – Patreon.  Same exact pricing and levels but you get more communication from us via emails on the platform rather than extra episodes in your podcast feed. Not ready to join us officially, no sweat.  But if you are this deep into the shownotes we hope you have gotten something from the wealth of content in our episode library and we’d love it if you made sure you were actually subscribed to the show and if so, by leaving us a rating and review – that is how the how grows, word of mouth and ratings.  TKS FRIEND!

Everyone is familiar with reacting “in the heat of the moment,” but do we really understand what that means? Regulation basics include the protection or connection pathways to interpersonal relating. Get 2 months free with this link! In this episode, Sue Marriott and Ann Kelley unravel the mystery behind our nervous systems auto-pilot settings: protection vs connection. They simplify otherwise complex ideas by breaking in to 2 main points.   Becoming aware whether you are in the Protection/Defense versus Connection/Secure pathways in our nervous system helps us manage them. Also, how does our story affect how we react and deal with conflict, and how can we mitigate it? Tune in for this insightful and eye-opening discussion on our internal working models when interacting with others. Show Notes about regulation and the protection or connection pathways: 00:00 Understanding our internal working model 01:05 Our body responds so much faster than our mind 03:11 The story we tell amplifies the body’s response 05:30 Story vs State: Protective System and the Relational Connective System 08:11 Awareness of our state and identifying the tells of a protective system 16:12 The awareness of self in the presence of another, the relational system 17:49 Our smartest brain 19:30 Tells when you’re in a relational, connective, and reflective place 25:21 Tolerating difficult emotions 29:32 Use your own name to identify yourself 31:24 Ways to calm your body down 36:40 Pre-emptive strike; we get defensive because of the threat inside of our body 39:26 Positive interpretation of a story 41:02 Conclusion FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW Keep scrolling – Important Links: Steve Porges, of course!  We have tons of stuff on Polyvagal Theory in our library, but here is a previous episode with Dr. Steve Porges directly, plus it includes lot’s of other resources click here!  Great regulation PDF resource by former guest, Deb Dana – Rhythm of Regulation If you enjoyed this content, please send it on to somebody you feel could use it. Word of mouth helps the podcast grow so more people can benefit from this free resource. Sharing is caring they say, and so are ratings and reviews!  🙂 Help support Therapist Uncensored by becoming a Premium member. Join our private Neuronerd community and support the production of this indie-produced cis-female led show!  As a bonus to helping spread this content, you will receive all episodes ad-free, deep dive premium episodes, access to reading and learning opportunities, extra episodes, plus of course discounts on everything we produce. We love options so we are giving you a choice: if you are more visual and prefer direct communication and staying closely in touch with our activities join here: https//www.Patreon.com/therapistuncensored.  If you love listening to additional content and prefer to easily download bonus audio content to your normal feed, join us here: https://www.therapistuncensored.com/join. Either way, you will be part of our Neuronerd community and receive all of the ad-free episodes and bonuses. Platinum level Neuronerds and Benefactors meet with us, personally and get their own thank you page on our website!        Join our Neuronerd online community – click the image above! Protection or Connection Nervous System Regulation Pathways, Ep 166 Transcript When we talk about understanding ourselves, we talk about it through understanding the spectrum and our internal working model. Let’s simplify it. What do you think? It’s simplified but it’s also going deeper. I would almost call it going deeper. We start getting interested in colors, up and down is it dorsal vagal, ventral vagal or whatever. Your idea of deep-diving into the basics of this is what I love about the way you talk about it because it feels so usable. Recognizing what internal working model that we function in is important but every day, our body is responding to our environment and to itself. What do you mean responding to itself? You know how we’re always talking about story follows state. In fact, we might even start there. People always say, “What do you mean by story follows state?” What does that mean? There’s a part where our body responds so much faster in our minds. We say this all the time on our show but we give way too much credit to that frontal lobe of ours and the story that we’re telling. An example is we’re having this crappy time at work and we’re so stressed. All we can think about is how sucky the people are that we work with or the job we have and that’s causing us to feel anxious and bad. Our story is people at work are bad, my job is bad and that’s why I feel anxious and upset. Regulation We go, “Here it goes again. We have another meeting.” We then begin to look for information that supports our story. That’s the repetitive nature we talked about, that habitual when we feel trapped by the repetitive, the prediction and now we know it’s going to happen. It sucks. Part of what we mean is 90% of what goes on in our brain comes from inside of our body. This is where the story becomes so important. Neuroanatomists talk about that feeling is 90 seconds. Your example of the work is like if something happens, you get a bad review, you’re going to have an actual primary affect but it’s only 90 seconds of shock, anger or shame. After that, we continue that response in our body through the story we tell. What we say is, “The only reason I got a bad review is that so-and-so doesn’t like me or they’re jealous.” We’re having the state issue wherein the feeling in our body whether our heart rate’s gone up or we’re feeling anxious, we feel that and we got to figure out how to change, stop or handle it. One of the first things we do is we look outside of ourselves, “Who’s causing this? It’s my job.” Our body responds so much faster than our mind. I suck and messed up again. That’s a story. I love that because it’s not just telling the story of the victim in the world where you can say, “I suck.” It’s the story that we tell that amplifies in our body, our heart rate and even the hormones that we send off, the more we feel anxiety. We think it’s because, “I’m trapped. My partner sucks. My business sucks,” and we start amplifying. The truth is we’re amplifying the chemical reaction in our body. We’re talking about it as if those words come across a screen or we’re aware of saying, “I suck.” How do you experience the story part? Isn’t that interesting to think? Do we hear it in our minds? My story becomes a little repetitive and ruminative. I think it’s words and it’s different for different people. It could be images for some people or words for others but I can feel the pit at times. I’m looking for what around me is the risk and the threat. I will feel the pits like, “What happened last night? Why am I feeling this anxiety?” I’m searching for, “What is the event that happened that is making the pit of my stomach feel that?” When you’re saying, “I’m searching for,” it is accurate 100% but as far as the felt experience, I don’t think it feels like we’re searching for a story. The story is as is like, “She’s late again. She thinks she’s better than me.” Anything in your mind as you’re reading that has the flavor of, “This always happens.” This is a repetitive story, “My husband never listens to me. My wife has never been happy with me. No matter what I do, she feels critical of me. I can do nothing right.” The important part of this episode is why is it so important that we’re talking about the story versus the state? Conceptualizing how we take care and tune into our bodies instead of thinking about it at this moment, this internal working model. I want to make it simple but deep and that is, “Are you aware of what nervous system in your body that you’re activating?” We have the part of our system that we talk a lot about that wants to be protective and defend us. It feels like a threat in the environment that activates our body in a threat response. For this purpose, we’re going to call it our protective system. For a while, we were playing with calling it the peace and security department and the defense department. I like where you’re going of, “Are we are in our protective system because it’s a whole dynamic cascade?” For neuro-atypical folks, it’s not necessarily other people that cause that sense of wellbeing but it’s like, “Are you open to yourself? Are you open to others?” That is what you’re calling the relational protective system. Relational can be in relation to yourself as well. It’s not just in relation to somebody else but is your system open or closed? When we feel danger, we have to have our system closed down. That is in our human nature. A lot of times, I’ll say something about somebody being in threat and they’re like, “I’m not scared. I’m not in threat.” That person’s an idiot. The felt experience is not a threat but what you’re trying to say is what we’re looking for is what our body is doing in order for us to figure out what’s happening instead of us thinking, “I am in threat.” I never think that. What you’re saying is instead of trying to do it through our cognition, where you’re going with this is around helping people identify that binary, “Are you an open place or not?” Connective Nervous System: Recognizing what internal working model we function in is really important. It’s both, “Are you in a protective place or are you activating in others a protective place?” If we bring into conflict in any relationship, it could be a spouse, child, sibling. It doesn’t matter. Think about your state separate from the story. We’re in a fight, we’re pissed, my husband never listens to me and my wife always criticizes me. Those are the stories but if we slow down like, “What state is my body?” That’s what we want to invite you to think about. How can you tell? Let’s start with the protective system. If I’m in a protective or more of a defense. It doesn’t matter if you’re up-regulated or down-regulated. We’re saying, “Are you in defense? Are you in a protective mode?” One of the ways that you can tell is you’re feeling the heart rate go up. That may be one example but it also can be you’re going flatter. There are lots of ways to tell. It depends on what is activating. You mentioned, “Are you going up or down?” You’re going to have different signals that you’re in your defense depending on what you’re doing. You can go, “Which system am I? Am I in my protective system or in my connective?” The funny thing is we think so often we’re in the connective because, “I’m pissed at you, Sue and I need to tell you why I’m pissed. I need to tell you now. I can’t wait. I’m telling you that you need to sit down. We need to talk about this now. I am pissed. This is important and we can’t wait until later. I don’t know what my story is, why I can’t talk about it. You know why I can’t. It’s because my heart rate is up. The pressure is happening behind my eyes. The sound in my ear is changing. “Because I’m having a state that is activated, I believe I have to act on it.” You believe it to your toes. I feel the pressure. That’s one indicator. We think we’re smart like we can, “She’s always dodging. I’m going to not let her dodge this time. We’re going to talk about it now.” We’re not in any uncertainty and that’s another clue. The certainty is the problem. If you know like, “I have expertise in this area and you need to listen to me.” If you say that a lot, I want you to be self-aware that you might live in your protective system. Some of us live more because of our history and more in our protective system. It’s like if our feet are unintentionally resting on the accelerator or if the idea of chronic vigilance feels familiar, your body is oriented in this protective way. 90% of what goes on in our brain comes from inside of our body. If you feel defended and a little confident all the time but uncomfortable with the more difficult emotions of other people, you might act on your own and live more in your protective state. This whole dialogue is also going to sound familiar because it’s including the internal working models that we might live more in red or in blue. We want you to think about the protective versus the connective and the fact that the more that we can look at our system and we can go, “This conversation I want to have with you Sue is important and I could feel this pressure.” I’m going to realize, “Am I in my protective system?” I’m busy now. Can we talk about it later? Now, my heart rate went up and I’m more pissed. I’m increasing my story. You’re going to blow me off. You’re not going to talk. My narrative is all about you and I have to work even harder. When we’re in our protective state, it has become often about the other person. If I’m feeling defensive and somebody is like, “Listen to you.” It’s very difficult to reflect. If you’re very confident, you know what you know and you can see what you see, there’s no urgency. You can hold it lightly and deeply know in your solar plexus that you don’t have an urge to convince, control or persuade. All of those things are cooled off because there’s no threat to you making your point or not making your point because you have a deep sense of security and knowing. One of the clues is a sense of urgency. We’re not the advocate, nor do we act this out all the time. We’re all going to get on our defensive or protective systems. They’re going to activate our body and we’re going to act out on it. That is the most human nature thing. What we’re working on here is not getting everybody to live in a state of, “That would be great.” What we want to do is awareness. The pressure I’m feeling towards you to talk now is because I feel activated. It isn’t because you’re being a jerk, won’t listen to me or my body is on high alert. One of the suggestions even when you’re there is, “I am way too activated to talk but I’m upset. This is super important and I want to come back to it.” This is so important that let’s set a time where we’re going to come back and talk about it. I love that. The reason we’re calling the other part of our nervous system, where our longtime readers in which we’re talking about our ventral vagal, the green zone. The reason we want to approach it from that way is because it’s when we’re in our connective experience, we have the ability to feel safer in our body and not being ruled by the story so we can be more reflective. It’s also super important. If I walk up to you and I’m in my defense or my protective posture, I’m going to activate every of your body to come right back for the attack. We can’t help that. That’s the neural Wi-Fi. If we could all do a practice of learning our tells when we are not in that open and connected place sometimes you can see it in someone else. Their face get still and there’s a little bit more of a mask that goes on. They’re saying, “I’m open. I’m not defensive.” That’s the thing. The idea is to get to know your own tells. If you’re even asking the question, you’re above your limbic system. The more that you’re curious, that’s another sign. We haven’t talked much about the sign of being in our relational, safe or connected place. Curiosity is a good one. It could be that or this. It’s even the awareness of self while in the presence of another. The awareness of self and the fact that I can be aware that I’m in my defense or protective system. I’m already closer to my relational system. The reason we’re in our protective system is we sense danger. That’s the only reason our body responds like that. It’s your dumb amygdala that senses danger. There’s no actual danger necessarily. It’s the belief that we’re in danger that continues to tell the story. Try this at home, “I’m not in danger even if Sue doesn’t listen to me now. I am not in danger even though I’m pissed off.” I get to be mad still and I could feel like I was treated but I don’t have to tell myself I’m in danger. The more we communicate to our body and even the treatment of being trained to get trauma into a different place is to let yourself know that you are safe, even while you’re having a big experience. I can be safe, know I’m not in danger and still feel upset. How you know you’re moving towards the relational system is that awareness or the ability to go, “I can wait. I feel pressure. I’m rushing. I’m aware that I’m not in danger. I can see myself.” We talked about having the sunglasses on and they get darker and darker the more upset we get. To be clear, this is a model that we talk about when we’re in our grounded, integrated, balanced, thinking and feeling self, that’s our smartest brain. It’s when we can clearly see what’s happening outside and in us. As we get more dysregulated, the sunglasses gets more and more distorted in different directions. We’re talking about moving into your reflective place rather than staring through those sunglasses. You take them off. You still have the color but you’re looking at it. You know you’re holding them like, “My glasses are colored and I know it. I’m going to need some space and time.” Just what you said, you’re halfway there. I want to talk about it even when we’re not activated. When we’re talking about something hard for our child or we’re thinking about it and start to feel our body activate. Think about a fight that’s unresolved. You begin to feel what your body feels like in activation. There you are having the thought and your state but the feeling of threat starts to hit. What we could do in this session is give some real specific ways to bring someone’s body back into a relational space. For some reason, I’m also having the urge of knowing where we’re going. Can we talk for a minute about tells when we are in our connective to ourselves, the Earth, the world and your community? When you’re open and connected, wherever you’re reading from, do your own body scan. Maybe you want to get a sense of how your job is or what’s the pace of your thought. One of our examples is heightened activity in your body. We must tolerate difficult emotions. This might be a good time if you want to hit pause for a second and spend the moment reflecting and learning about yourself and your own habits or things that you can tell. One of the interpersonal ones, if we talked about ourselves, what is our heart rate doing? Do we feel the ability to think about our thoughts and our body and have that reflective space? If we’re with somebody, do you feel open to listening? Are you sitting with somebody? This also happens with anxiety. You’re sitting with somebody and start to think three steps ahead of what you’re going to say because you’re anxious. You’re in your protective state, “What am I going to say next?” In that state, it would be, “I’m not in danger. This person loves me.” Slow down and say, “I want to listen.” When you say listen, say a little more about what that looks and feels like. The feeling of listening is the feeling of openness. Can you maintain eye contact? Can you find interest in what someone is saying and hold your position without this pressure to speak, interrupt or interject? That’s such a sense of peacefulness. It also means that you’re not in your next thought. Do you know how we used to talk about ping pong, catch and stuff? It’s the catch. It’s like, “I’m letting you enter me through my ears, eyes and heart.” I’m hearing you and taking you in. I’m not going to pare back what you said. The word that comes to my mind is penetration. I’m in this receptive place. If you’re on an fMRI, you can tell if somebody is in that receptive place. What’s so interesting is as you open up and listen, you’re doing two things. The thing that’s so essential is, “If I’m a little anxious and protective, what if I slow down?” I say, “I’m safe and I’m going to listen.” I do that step. The interesting thing is it does two things about moving to our nervous system and that is by me slowing down and listening to you, your body opens up to me so you signal more safety. Our bodies are such communicative critters. If I slow my system down, I’m communicating to my brain that I’m safe. By being able to go, “I’m in my protective system.” If I can move myself out of it, no matter what the story is, what relevance or no relevance, I’m signaling to my brain that I’m safe. That calms my cortisol down, slows my heart rate, creases my pupils and signals to my whole body that I can be more in a reflective place. I like it because we can think about breaking it down into the pace. If you can slow down, that’s halfway there. If there is a pause or air around the next moment, you’re in a much safer place for yourself and the other person. What’s our resistance to slowing down? That word penetration is like we’re receptive and can be impacted, which is part of what makes us safe from the other person because they have an influence over us but that can also be a very scary thing to do. If you’re thinking about it at home or wherever you are reading, if you can feel your body rise about slowing down, compassionately care about that. Take a look at that and don’t criticize yourself because if it’s scary for you to slow down, there’s a reason that your body doesn’t feel safe. Connective Nervous System: If there is a pause, if there’s air around the next moment, you’re in a much safer place for yourself and for the other person.   What you’re introducing is talk to yourself but you are safe. What is the urgency? Slowing down seems like a good one. It could be this or that. One of the things to talk about here that would be important is to be able to be aware that you’re in your protective system and the best chance of moving it is to learn. We must tolerate difficult emotions. The thing that’s hard about our protective system is that it gets protective because we have an intensity or rush of what feels like a threat. If we can’t tolerate whatever gets activated, we tend to have to act it out. One of the powerful things to say to yourself is, “I can handle these strong emotions.” That’s one of the most important parts of relating to ourselves and other people. If we don’t do that, we have to quickly come to the fix. That’s that part where I have to be in the know. If I can’t tolerate the emotion of being in an unknown, I have to fix it so I have to correct you, tell you you’re wrong and interrupt you because if I don’t, I might have a surge of emotion or panic. These aren’t thoughts. You’re not thinking, “I’m going to panic if I slow down.” You are impatient. We’re using words to describe a state that is often wordless. That’s why we’re doing it because we want there to be words with it because you’re going to have your hands on the dial. You’re going to be able to manage better. The truth of the matter is if you don’t have your hands on the dial somebody else is responsible for you and that sucks. That’s the part of giving your agency away. If you believe your story and you stay in your story, you’re most often giving your agency to that story. Even thinking, “What else could be my story?” I listed impatience because that’s a good one. We can all relate to it a little bit. When you notice you start to feel impatient, one of the first things we want to do if we’re not aware of our own system and we don’t know that we’re in our protective system, we want to correct the exterior so that we don’t feel it. If you didn’t dilly-dally, I wouldn’t have any deep feelings and we would be great so now I’m pissed. If you say, you’re irritable with me. I’m like, “It’s because you’re so slow.” Here’s a key to think about. If you would stop being you, I wouldn’t feel me. Let’s stop and think about that. If I am the one taking ownership of my own dysregulation of my emotions and I still want to come to you but I need to know that to come to you and have a meaningful conversation about something that you may, in fact, have done, I need to be in my reflective place. It is my job to get me there. I might need help and we want to help each other. We’re big into helping each other get there. To summarize here, which system I am, how do I help myself get more reflective and get in my connective before I come to you? You were starting to say that and I diverted us a little bit about if you recognize that your teeth are clenched, you’re in a hurry and there’s urgency. Another way I often talk about it is that the stakes feel high and we want to move it to low stakes. You’re on a balance beam on the ground. You’re not 20 feet in the air with nothing under you. Can you say a little bit more about, “I either have the urgency or the stakes feel high. What’s next?” One of the things is using your own name to identify yourself. I know that sounds like a shocking thing to do. Make your strategy personal. “Sue, calm the crap down.” If you can’t recognize her name. That was my name. I’m talking to myself, “Calm your butt down.” If you were talking and in a reactive place, you don’t have to have this conversation now. You’re going to get your ass into another place and calm your butt. I’m talking to me instead of the whole narrative being about you. I always tell people to give yourself 30 seconds to 1 minute or maybe the 90-second rule is better to make it be about the other person. That’s fair. We’re not immediately going to go here. We’re not creating doormats here. As a matter of fact, the calmer you are and the more connected you are to yourself, your power is going to increase. Give yourself 90 seconds to be pissed and say, “Sue, I’m pissed,” in your own mind or verbally. Calm yourself down. You do not have to push forward at this moment. It will not be as effective and I can tolerate the experience of what’s going on inside me. “Sue, you can handle this.” “You can slow down and you can do this.” I’m not going to die if I have this feeling. I am not in danger. I just have big feelings and I can handle it. I have big gorgeous feelings. They’re beautiful and we love them. How rocking is that when you go, “I can handle this. I don’t have to be scared of it.” It’s because I’m talking about me. We can do anything from that place. We were super-powered. There are some ways to calm your body down. Peter Levine does an amazing job talking about some strategies, the hand on the stomach, heart and forehead. Sometimes, I’ll put both of my hands on my cheeks and squeeze my face or cheeks as a mother would with a child in a loving way. If you imagine that, your story will get introduced in that. It’s the same stimulus, which is a mother’s hands are on each side of a child’s head, that is, their cheeks. For some reason, I imagined somebody pushing it off. For me, when I think of that, it calms my body down and that feels so warm. If you’re one out there going, “Are you kidding?” I would whack those hands-off so fast. That’s your body and state holding that. You would probably knock those hands-off without even realizing why. That’s the state and it gets triggered. It’s for a reason. What’s happening is that your body does remember something that was threatening that contact or the feeling that’s in that and those cells remember. They’re protecting you. It’s not unconscious. It’s automatic. Connective Nervous System: You can hear the self-fulfilling nature of this because our story basically perpetuates our internal working model, which is why we’re saying, “slow down and question your story.” That is a great example of the state follows a story. Those hands are not dangerous to you but you will hit those. You’re not thinking about it. You have no cognitive awareness but your body feels that threat based on your history and you will act that state out in your heart. Let’s say you’ve done that to me. You are trying to be caring and I do that. Instead of being aware of me, I’m pissed at you that you did that. You can hear the self-fulfilling nature of this because our story perpetuates our internal working model, which is why we’re saying slow down and question your story. We love uncertainty. “That did piss me off but I’m curious why.” I want to tell a very quick face story. I may have already shared this on the show. For some reason, it feels familiar but probably most of you don’t know about it. When my son was very young, I can’t remember what initiated it but he came up to me and put his hand on my cheek. It was super sweet. I’m like, “What are you doing?” He goes, “I’m giving you a melt.” Apparently, what had happened when I would touch his cheek, his body would melt. He had done that with me before and it feels like my body melts. It became in his mind a melt so he was giving me a melt by touching my cheek. I could melt by just saying it. I can remember and feel him giving it to me, which is apt. What I love about that is you were saying, “Let’s talk about different strategies.” Make your strategy personal. For you that strategy of when you’re trying to calm yourself down, putting your hand on your cheek and think about that moment. If we bring ourselves into a moment of safety while we’re not, our whole body will respond in that and it will slow our whole system down. What happens right after that melt or the calm is a whole different trajectory. It changes the trajectory of what’s going to happen, which is why we want to help break this down. Don’t worry about red, blue and green. Don’t worry about up-regulated, downregulated or polyvagal. We love it all. This is all incorporated. We’re saying, “Are you in a connective place or in your defense system?” We were using the metaphor of the planes are out and scanning for danger versus if you’re in this peace and security department. These are other ways we’ve said it. We’re calling it, “Are you in your protective defense system or are you in your corrective relational?” We’re defending ourselves because we think we’re in danger. That’s what we’re defending but instead, we think we’re defending ourselves from the external source out there, which most often is not a life threat. That is why it’s defensive. We get defensive because of the threat inside of our body. The danger is us feeling a feeling. I have a big feeling and you stop that so I don’t have the feeling. If you’re going to tell a story, positively interpret it. You were talking about expanding our capacity to be uncomfortable. No matter what we’re feeling, it’s just a feeling. Nobody has died of having a feeling. You get to have the biggest feelings. It’s what we do with it that could kill us or somebody. That’s also an inability to tolerate the feeling. Many of our negative interaction or conflicts that continue and become repetitive is the intolerance of that feeling and the anticipation of that feeling. Your partner starts talking, you anticipate where they’re going and you anticipate what is going to make you feel, which is usually negative if it’s a conflict. It’s the anticipation. Whatever they’re about to say is going to make you feel that bad feeling that you get. You’re going to do a preemptive strike. This isn’t the answer to all conflict but to slow yourself down and go, “I am interrupting because I am not in my system.” I can say, “I’m not being my best self. I can feel it. I do not feel open to you.” “I can feel that I’m responding defensively. Give me a minute.” If your partner’s in a defense place, “Can we take a break?” Also, know that the break is to calm, not to load your arsenal. Wrapping around, most of our examples of the story follows state have been scary. I don’t think that we are thinking that we’re in threat or danger. Our bodies are pushed off of the hands. If that person is not thinking, I don’t like that. Their hand flies up and pushes it off. That story following state is true on the side of security. For example, the story that I tell based on all of our experiences is that something’s wrong. It’s still a story. Therapists might call that positive transference. You might think of that as love or trust that we’re still filling in the story and we’re taking care of the other person. It’s like a positive interpretation but we’re still filling in the story. Another way we’re saying this is if you’re going to tell a story, positively interpret it. If you’re not sure of two things, go ahead and give them the benefit of the doubt. That’s how powerful the story versus state is. Sometimes, you will defend somebody very quickly if somebody might be having a problem with them. It’s like, “I’m sure they didn’t mean such and such.” Part of why that’s happening is that there’s a story there around the validity and trust of that person or maybe even the story is, “I need to defend them from you.” That’s still a story. They’re not even here and I say something. Either way, if it’s like, “I know this person and this person would never do that.” That’s a story. Connective Nervous System: So many of our negative interaction or conflicts that continue and become repetitive is the intolerance and the anticipation of that feeling.   What part of your system is the story coming from? Is it coming to defend and protect yourself or because you feel connected, relational and you can give the benefit of the doubt? Flexibility, low stakes, no rush and curiosity then you’re in great shape. You get to have your stories because you can play with them like, “I never knew that about that person. That’s fascinating.” The other part of it is it’s the smart brain. It will learn and take in new information. It’s reflective. It’s good. The more positive engagements that you build up with these positive stories, the safer and safer it is. You’re on a different trajectory that the world is safe and you deserve it. You have control of that trajectory.

Social emotional learning for all of us – brain breaks not timeouts recommended Join our online community! Brain breaks and the 3 C’s for connecting. Whether you’re a parent balancing life in the pandemic or a teacher managing highly emotional kids, this episode is a resource for you. Co-host Dr. Ann Kelley and child specialist, Lindsey Kealey dive into strategies for teaching kids how to regulate their emotions and promote positive connection with others, called social emotional learning. Linsey Kealey has developed a trauma-based, neuroscience-informed program that uses social emotional learning and problem-solving strategies to help all of us make positive decisions and thrive in our relationships. She utilizes the Three C’s method, connect, calm and collaborate, to help transform the way we interact with ourselves and others. They discuss the three C method of connection to help cultivate healthy relationships and positive development in our children. . Our guest today Lindsey Kealey is a University instructor of human development and family sciences and education at Oregon State University. She is the author of PAWsitive Choices Social and Emotional Learning and the host of The PAWsitive Choices Podcast. Lindsey earned a Bachelor’s of Science in Human Development and Family Sciences with an emphasis in child development and holds a Masters of Arts in Teaching. Her university work, as well as her experience coaching families and teachers, helped her craft a curriculum that integrates interpersonal neurobiology, trauma-responsive practices, and problem-solving to help children thrive. Lindsey Kealey working with social emotional learning More about PAWsitive Choices… PAWsitive Choices is a comprehensive social and emotional learning program for families and schools that teaches children how to regulate emotions, make positive choices, learn from mistakes, and collaboratively solve problems. This trauma-responsive curriculum equips educators and caregivers with practical tools and strategies to help strengthen relationships and promote resilience. Show Transcript Lindsey: So we almost think that this is going to take a lot of time, but in the long run, you’ll find yourself having to teach less and less because they’re learning those skills. They’re internalizing them. So it can feel counterintuitive of well man setting up a brain break kid or teaching my child about problem solving. It is a task. It is something to do, but not only is it going to make them more successful and thrive, it’s going to help make our lives easier. And I think that’s motivating for adults. Today’s session on social emotional learning begins right now with Dr. Ann Kelley and Sue Marriott. Ann: Hi, welcome to the show. I’m here with Lindsey Kealey. Lindsey: Thanks for having me. Ann: I’m so glad to have you. So you are a social, emotional learning specialist for children. Is that right? Lindsey: That’s correct. Ann: Well, Lindsey, tell us a little bit about yourself. Lindsey: I am an Instructor of education and also human development and family science. With an emphasis in early childhood education. And I am a fellow neuro nerd. I love your podcast. It resonates with me so much. So I’m just really passionate about translating the science just as your podcast does to help, not only my university students and graduate students, but also families and elementary educator. So I like to synthesize the science that’s out there about our personal neurobiology and then infuse that both in my college courses and then also with family coaching. And when I go and coach in elementary schools, so it’s really just an honor and privilege to get to work with so many different people in different sectors and disseminate this great information about how we can better connect with you. Ann: And we need to continue to disseminate that for the young humans out there, because, you know, as a parent myself, all the information I could have used when my kids were younger, to help them deal with those huge, big emotions that they can have and you know, how to cope and really learn how to get ahold of themselves and to connect to other people. So when I took a look at your curriculum, I was really excited to have you on the show. Lindsey: Thank you. It’s really a neat position that we’re in, whether we’re educators or parents, or even just as we’re connecting with our partners. If someone doesn’t have children in their life, it’s a beautiful opportunity for us to get to better understand ourselves and kind of our emotional landscape. And then how that translates to. Who we’re connecting with and how we can practice that empathy and then help others understand what’s happening within them. If they’re experiencing strong feelings. And that’s something that I always talk about with my students and other adults I work with is that to begin, you want to explore your own emotional landscape and practice that emotional regulation. And that’s really what. Children can learn the best buys by modeling. So when we, you know, start with ourselves, then that’s one of the best places to start. I think, I think some teachers and parents say, well, like I need to teach my kid. I need to change their behavior right away. And I think when we step back, it starts with us. And that’s really nice because we have a lot of autonomy and agency over our actions. Young black mother taking care of her depressed little daughter at home. Ann: Well, what do you typically try to teach your graduate students and parents and teachers about how to do that? Right? Because it’s, it is such an important step instead of always being the teacher out there to our children, to really be able to understand how hard it is to do inside of ourselves and to be able to really model it. So what if some of the things that you recommend when you’re talking to parents and teachers? Lindsey: Well to begin with, I like to bring attention to the work of Dr. Kristin Neff and self-compassion because trying to navigate social problems takes a lot of self-compassion and vulnerability, I think. And so being able to just like, put your hand on your chest and take that deep breath in and just give yourself. Because as we’re trying to connect with others and teach kids, you know, regulation skills with those big feelings, they experience, it’s very likely that it could make us feel dysregulated. You know, I have this glitter brain frame. So if you think about for those listeners who can’t see this, the picture frame that has the glitter in it, and I’ve just put a picture of a brain inside of that. And if you think about the glitter as being kind of like the neuro-transmitters and chemicals in your brain, when you get really upset, I show this to my students and young children. It’s almost like the glitter in your brain or those neurochemicals get all mixed up. So it’s really hard to make positive choices. It’s hard to be our best selves and show up when we feel dysregulated. And I think one of the most encouraging things that I can tell people is that one of the best ways to model vulnerability and to help build resilience in children is to repair with them. So I have. A big glitter brain and the small one. And so when our brains get dysregulated and maybe you know, we’re not super kind, or we said, we say, Hey, I told you that five times sit down and maybe we’re not showing up how we’d like to, we can simply model for children or even, you know, our other adult relationships and say, you know what? My brain felt really mixed up. I was really upset. And I’m sorry for speaking to you the way I did. And next time I’m going to take calming breaths and I’m going to try some things out to help my own brain. And I’m sorry about. The way I talk to you. So when we repair, I think that kids learn so much, you know, we don’t have to worry about being the perfect parents to the perfect teachers or the perfect partner, but rather we can model repair and we can come together and really solve those social problems. Ann: You don’t have to hold the idea of perfection that we’re not going to make mistakes. And so often we want to rush in and explain why we did something don’t we like, no, let me tell you I’m so charged up, but this is why you need to understand. The concept of letting your brain kind of settle so that you can find your body and then come to the connection. Yeah, that’s a really important reminder, I think to us all Lindsey: yes. And I think when we start just by saying, you know, I felt really upset. I felt really dysregulated. If you’re speaking to an adult, like you mentioned, rather than going into a list of reasons of why we did a certain thing, or, well, I talk like this because you did X, Y, and Z. If we just say, you know, I had a lot of strong feelings when we had this discussion that almost lets the other person kind of take a sigh of relief and it feels like you’re on the same team rather than the other person getting on the defense and saying, well, I had these reasons why I acted like this in the first place. So if we just say, you know, I had these really strong feelings that I’m kind of wrestling with or working through that. It’s like it unites our common humanity with one another. Ann: Well, when you’re trained to help parents or teachers, let’s think about the kids with big emotions, with their bodies, for whatever reason, history experience, but they tend to have huge emotions, and dysregulate frequently. Those can be really tough times to be able to get ahold of yourself and parent. But what are the things you recommend? Like what do you talk to individuals about how to deal with a child that is extremely dysregulated and upset? Lindsey: I actually have a lot of experience. One of the beginning of my educational journey and my journey to creating a social emotional curriculum started my second year of teaching. I began as a kindergarten teacher and day one, I thought this is going to be a great year. And it turned out that I had seven students who had really strong social, emotional, and behavioral challenges or needs. And so that looked like certain students hitting one another, you know, running out of the classroom, a lot of physical aggression and violence I saw and a big part of that had to do with trauma and adverse. Experiences. And when I learned about their backgrounds and where they’re coming from, the amount of stress that was flooding their systems, it was just astonishing that they could come to school to begin with and show up. So that certainly gave me a lot of empathy, as I learned about trauma and how that affects the brain. So that kind of set me off on a pathway of how do I help children who were literally throwing chairs across the classroom or who are running out the front door of the school. And now we’re calling backups to find kids in the neighborhood. I mean, this is something that some teachers will experience really big problems and behavioral challenges. And so I kind of started with a host of behavioral challenges that were extreme. And then I kind of worked backward from there. Ann: I can imagine teachers out there can really relate to what you are saying. And I I’m thinking about being in your position and having students run all over the place and you can have deep compassion for their histories, but you also have to like manage them. And I just have such empathy for teachers out there. And I think actually after the year of the pandemic, I think a lot more of us have a kind of connection to teachers and what they have to deal with on an everyday basis because what’s coming together for them is a history. Probably many kids that have had trauma and have that manifested in terms of dysregulating and behaviors that are tough. So anyway, I just think about that from a really compassionate place for the teachers out there and for you in that moment and trying to go, ah, how do I deal with it? Lindsey: Definitely. So beginning with just connecting with yourself and again, holding space for self-compassion and telling yourself, wow, this is really hard. I mean, there was this bout of physical aggression with these students and I need to really be at a place of peace as much as you can. Right. That’s challenging to do that, but before you engage with children or with a difficult situation, being able to make sure your brain is calm and ready to teach. I think that’s really huge. So in working with children with a variety of needs, and then also with working with children who maybe don’t have trauma or a lot of challenges, I found there are three practices, three things you can do that I call the three CS and that is to connect. To calm and then collaborate. And I found that when you do those three things, really with any problem that you have, it helps you get to the end, the ultimate goal, which is to have accountability, to have repair and to really teach kids to build skills so that they learn from that experience. So when you connect with the child, that could just be acknowledging where they’re coming from, you could just narrate their experience. I could tell you a really upset when you know that student took the ball out of your hands. That really made you mad. Gosh, it’s frustrating when people take things out of our hands. So that’s just the first day just connecting with them. Ann: That’s not an easy step though, right? Like it can sound easy. Right. You know, connect first, but you’re describing kids that are hitting one another. Like how do you take a moment for the of connection when you’re in the middle of this really intense behavioral acting out. And I know parents, and even when I’ve talked with couples, when they’re really, really angry, that connection step can be so difficult. How do you help people make that first step? I want to go to the calm and the collaborate whole heartedly agree with you, but let’s take a moment at that first. What do you recommend? How do you help people connect? Lindsey: Well, if someone, maybe let’s say one person who’s trying to facilitate the problem solving is also dysregulated, you could start by just saying, I can tell you’re upset and you know, if you’re not in a head space to start to guess, well, are you frustrated? Are you sad? You could just start by saying, I can tell that your brain feels mixed up or that you feel upset. And I think that allows the other person to feel, felt like Dr. Dan Siegel. So the person just knows, oh, you can tell something is on my heart or I’m, I’m having a difficulty with the situation. So to say, I can tell you’re upset. And then I think that allows the other person to feel felt. I think that’s a pretty simple thing to say and then move on from there when you can. So maybe it’s, you’re not in a situation where like, for instance, if it’s a safety issue in the classroom to say, oh, I can tell that maybe if it’s two children, both of you are really upset. We need to change how our environment looks right now. So let’s have this student go over. I call something a brain break. So that’s allowing students and I’m showing to the screen now a little tub with calming tools inside of it. So rather than hopping to, I need to teach you a lesson or tell you why your behaviors were right or wrong. That’s the third C collaborate. We need to first get them in a place where they’re able to calm down. To be able to learn and be ready to hear what you have to say. And so you could say, we need to, you know, the second C is to calm. Let’s take some deep breaths, let’s get you in a space that’s safer, or that allows you to feel settled before we start problem solving this situation. And for adults that could be like, I can tell you’re upset. What do you need right now? So maybe the other person accused them into oh, My brain probably needs something. You know what? I’m going to go take a lap around the neighborhood cause I might need to get my energy out. So that’s something where we can help the other person identify that they need to meet one of their own needs Ann: One of things as that it can be just a quick line, right? It’s not that you have to kind of sit down and have this empathetic moment with a kid that is acting out. But what you’re saying is even if you just observe about what’s going on in the connection, I see you’re upset. You’re probably both upset. That ,in and of itself, that quick line is a step into the experience of connection. That kind of calms the nervous system in that one moment. And so often we jump up with trying to teach the lesson, and that is as a parent, as a partner, it’s like, let me tell you why I’m upset. So I know I keep saying that, but it’s so hard for our nervous systems to calm down. So I like what you’re saying. Sometimes it’s just one quick line. It doesn’t have to be a momentous moment. Lindsey: Exactly. And I found that when you skip that connection piece and you go straight to calm some of us, maybe we don’t go straight to the collaborate. And I want to tell you why you’re wrong or let’s fix this. Sometimes we start with, we want to help them calm down. We see that need, but we say you need to calm down. And oftentimes the other person isn’t necessarily receptive to that. What do you mean? I need to calm down, calm down, right? Ann: Somehow that never works. You know, if you say calm down, don’t be afraid. Okay. Let me get busy, let me get right on that (both laughing) Lindsey: It’s powerful just to say I see you. I can see something’s up and you could say, I see that both of us are upset. We both need to take a break. I think that we need to regroup or for children I say, we need to let our brains settle and then we can come back together. But you know, right now I need to go sit at my desk and take a sip of my coffee and what do you need? Okay. You can go take a brain break or maybe you can just do a lap around the recess. So, you know, the playground let’s help you calm down. So I think when you really get to the bottom of it, it’s helping children become regulated, building those skills for them, and then being able to teach. Help them understand why, whatever they did was a problem, so they can move forward and then have that long lasting behavioral change is the ultimate goal. I think with maybe even beneath that is strengthening our relationships because really kids don’t care what, you know, until they know that you care for them. So that’s a big part of it strengthening that relationship. Ann: Yeah. I like the way you’re saying .Kids don’t care what,you know until they feel like you care. That’s a really powerful statement. Lindsey: I’d have to look and see who it’s attributed to. It might be too anonymous, but that’s something that I, I always go back to with my graduate students who are thinking, well, I need to get the reading, writing, math scores up, you know, when they’re doing their student teaching placements, they’re so focused on maybe a child’s behavior. I need them to sit at the carpet and listen, otherwise their reading score isn’t going to be where I need it to be. But if we say relationships first, academic second. Then actually that’s the most productive approach to take, because if the child’s not in the learning state, if their brain’s not regulated, if their prefrontal cortex is not online, then they’re not going to get that reading skill. They’re not going to learn multiplication or division when they’re in that brain state. So it’s one of my joys in what I do is helping people make that realization and have that aha moment. Ann: In those steps we’ve talked about the three C’s and we’ve talked about the connect and then the calm. And you mentioned the brain break. Talk a little bit more about the brain break. I think that’s part of what your curriculum is based on, is that right, about ways to help individuals first connect, but then in the calming place that there’s things that they can do to calm themselves before they jump into the collaborative. Can you talk a little bit more about the brain break? Lindsey: Definitely. So I think that oftentimes as adults, we want to help children calm down and we all know that something that needs to happen, especially when you’re in an aisle at target and maybe you’re with your child and they’re having a moment because they want a toy. And you said, no. So we all want them to experience that sense of calm. But in my research, I’ve looked at the things that get in the way. And so some common practices like. Or in the educational setting and classrooms that might be, oh, you’re missing five minutes of recess or you’re missing fun Friday, or there’s different things that we do with the best of intentions, thinking that telling a child, oh, you need to go take a timeout. We think that’s going to help them calm down. However, if we look back at that, what does that ultimately accomplishing. Some of the unintended consequences of having children take a timeout is if they’re going over to a corner of the room, let’s say in the house, and they’re just sitting there rather than thinking, you know, wow, what I did was wrong. And I put that made my sister feel really upset when I did this or that. So what we really want kids to do is still feel like they’re connected to us and that they’re worthy of love and belonging. So if we say go take a. You just did something really bad that can kind of cause a rupture, a disconnection. So if we say something like, you know what, buddy, I can tell your brain feels mixed up. Let’s have you take a brain break or a calming break. That way you’re feeling better. And then we can solve this problem. So it’s really, it’s not putting the blame on the person. So that’s shame. I am that. And then. Guilds Bernay Brown’s work. What I did was bad. And so when we are able to shift our language, take a linguistic turn, so to speak and say, you know what, let’s help your brain settle down rather than take a time out. Ultimately it’s accomplishing the goal of having a child remove themselves from maybe a situation, maybe it’s Thanksgiving dinner, and they’re, you know, having a moment, they have those strong feelings. It’s allowing them to remove themselves from that environment or that situation. But we’re wording it in a way that promotes shame resilience and that fosters a secure attachment. So I think that’s powerful. So a brain break really is allowing a child to go to a space that’s safer and that’s calm for them. And then know that they have a variety of things they can do to help their brain feel settled. So that’s the goal. And when we think about how we tell them to do that, it can make a big difference. Ann: You think about shame is being sent out of the village, right? That’s kind of what induces shame historically. And. To like go take a time out is this inducement of you’ve done something bad and now we need to punish you. Right. And, and like you said, all of a sudden I have this idea of this child in the corner and no you’re right. Unlikely that me,  myself in the corner as a child or anyone else will be sitting there really having reflective functioning about how much they made a mistake and how much they desire to repair. Not so much. Right. Lindsey: Exactly. And it can go one of two ways or it can go both ways. There’s a variety of ways this can go, but it’s oftentimes either my mom or dad they’re so mean I don’t deserve this or that could also be I’m so bad and I’m not even good enough to sit at the table with, you know, at Thanksgiving or, you know, my family doesn’t care from your love and be like, I can’t even be around them. I’m unworthy. And so I would rather have a child have their response and their brain of thinking, wow, if maybe at their grandparents’ house, grandma’s really mean. I’d rather have almost have that cognitive pattern because the child’s not internalizing shame thinking that they are bad, but ultimately we don’t want our children to be having this reflective time where they’re thinking we’re all bad. Right. Right. And we want them to feel like we’re on the same page. So something that happens I think is when I propose that we can shift our understanding of time outs, I get the response from parents of, well, what do you mean time outs are bad? You know, maybe they grew up in, they were spanked or they had other forms of discipline that didn’t feel good. And so they’re thinking I don’t want to go that direction. So I’m going to go with the timeout in their mind. They’re thinking that’s so much better than these other really punitive responses that caregivers can provide. And so I think. If we’re able to let parents know, and I make this clear with my graduate students as well, is that, we’re not saying that we’re just letting accountability fall to the wayside. You know, we’re not saying, oh, your brain’s upset. And you know, kumbaya gave me a hug. Now we’re walking. We were going right along. We wanted to backtrack because it’s really important for us to have those boundaries. Right. It’s in our children’s best interest to help them learn from their mistakes rather than when parents say, oh, doesn’t a brain. Isn’t that like a permissive thing to do, but it’s like, oh, actually rather you’re allowing that child to calm down to still feel connected to you. And that’s why you have to follow up with problem solving. That’s a really important piece that has to be there. Ann: Well, I also think the piece of the brain break, as you’re talking about it, it feels like it really also supports accountability, right? Because it’s, it’s not even the, what falls after that, where the time out is not really fostering accountability where you’re saying, take a brain break. You’re suggesting your brain is dysregulated. And so you’ve got to go and actively work on calming yourself down. And I love that you have like a, a brain break bucket and it’s good for all of us. I need a brain break sometimes, you know, like, like what are the things that would go in your personal bucket as an adult, but also as a child? Like, what do you put in your bucket that actually lowers your cortisol level and calms you down, but keeps you connected. But there’s also this active engagement with yourself instead of, like you said, letting yourself run into the rumination of “I’m a victim or I’m a perpetrator”, right? Like I’m so bad or the world’s so bad. It’s like, I’m so dysregulated and I’m upset because I’ve been connected with, by, I hear you’re upset, so I’m going to, I’m going to calm myself down and it really does support that journey. Doesn’t it, to the next. Lindsey: Exactly because one of our goals is to build skills. So when, when our children progress or development, and now they’re in high school, we want them to have healthy coping mechanisms. And one of the reasons that sometimes when a parent will say, well, you know, why do I need to take the time to build a brain break kit or to teach healthy choices to my child? Let’s say five years old. Well, one of the reasons is let’s look down the developmental trajectory when they’re in high school, we want them to have skills. So when they’re under extreme pressure, we don’t want them to go out and, you know, use drugs or to do behaviors that are risky to their health or to others. So it’s important for us to take a skill based approach and to help kids understand that they have autonomy and agency over what they do when they’re feeling dysregulated. That’s really important. Ann: Absolutely. They’re also teaching that, that pause, and that reflective functioning is so important, right? Because I think of how often people, one of their brain break is they’re going to go pick up their phone, but it actually for older individuals that is not actually adding to reflective functioning, is it, it’s just like that. Like, what’s the difference between a brain break and just sort of distancing. I’m going to take a break, but I’m actually going to go away and. You know, completely disconnect from the moment in my body where a brain break is teaching from the very youngest age, it seems a way to take a moment to go and calm down and self-reflect et cetera, instead of just disappear. So it seems like it really is teaching developmentally this step of stopping and going internal and being aware of the internal. Lindsey: Exactly. And I think having intentionality around it and having a game plan of connection. So it’s not go to your room and take a brain break so we can start to shift our language. And how about you go take a brain break, help your brain feel better, but if we don’t have that wraparound where they come back and connect with us again. It can kind of undermine our original purpose. So if you say, okay, go take a brain break. When you’re ready, let’s come back and talk about this. So there’s that intentionality rather than a child grabbing their little tub and just taking the Legos out. Okay. Now it’s time for dinner. It’s almost like you’re completing the stress cycle. They they’re able to calm down. Now we come back together and we say, okay, let’s talk about that. How are you feeling now? What was going on for you? I think it’s important. Same thing with our adult relationships. If you have an argument I know from personal experience with my husband, if you know, if we have some challenges in our relationship and we say, okay, we need to take a break. I’m going to go on a walk. Okay. You’re going to maybe even play video games, maybe an adult that is helpful for them to calm down. Let’s come back together. What do you think? Three of. Okay, great. Three o’clock let’s come back and we’ll talk about this. So you have that intentionality of, we are going to connect with each other. Again, some people they scroll Instagram and maybe that’s exactly what they need in the moment. And when they know that they are going to come back and repair or connect, then I think that can really be helpful. Ann: And that’s the last, C, the collaborative, like, so you’re going to take this part to calm and to really collect yourself. And then. The idea of collaborating, we are going to come back together and then that that’s so helps. We always talk about this on the podcast of how much that promise that we are going to come back in and that plan holds that connectivity and, and you can’t completely disappear into your own stuff because you know, you’re going to be coming back and talking. So you have to reconnect to it. Kind of have some mindsight about it Lindsey: Precisely. It’s some of the things that would maybe go on a child’s brain break kit or tub. Ann: Perfect. Next question. I was going to ask you, what would you put? Lindsey: So it’s really powerful when you have a child come alongside and kind of co-create it with you. So a lot of times when I work with parents, they could have like, you know, a journal and Crayons. I think it’s powerful to have a mirror for younger kids, especially, and pair that with an emotions chart so when they sit down, they can start to think, well, how do I feel? And with the curriculum, there’s like brain breaks steps. So they really have a clear picture of, okay, I start with the timer. So I highly recommend that caregivers or even in the classroom, a lot of teachers are doing this in their classroom, having some kind of visual time. So a child knows, okay, I’m going to do this for five minutes. There’s kind of like a limit. They know whether it’s a timer like this or a sand timer. They’re watching the sand go down and they’re getting a feel for, okay, I’m halfway done with this little break of mine. Ann: So you may have a timer put in the bucket so that they’re aware of timing. Is that what you’re saying? That they’re aware like, oh, I’m going to do this and for this amount of time and they can feel it. And then you mentioned a feeling’s chart and mirror, tell me a little bit more about the mirror. Why a mirror?. And would that be for all ages? What are your thoughts about that? Lindsey: You know, it really can start as young as children who are ready for it. So if you kind of go through, if you have a clear picture for what kids can be doing, when they’re in a brain break, Write it down or you have pictures of them doing it, or, you know, if you have something kind of like a visual aid, you want them to be able to know they’re setting the timer, have them begin with breathing because it’s really difficult to connect with what your feelings are if you’re not in a calm state of mind, because it does require your prefrontal cortex and critical thinking to don’t. Well, what am feeling? And maybe for children as young as two or three, maybe they’re not in the place with their emotional literacy to do that. And that’s powerful as adults when we come alongside and sit down with them and maybe you hold the mirror up and say, I wonder how do you feel? And so if you have an emotions poster where you’re able to juxtapose what their face looks like in the mirror, and then hold that. The feelings poster and say, oh, your face kind of looks like this one, how your eyebrows are tilted down and you have a little cheer here and you’re just kind of bringing awareness to their somatic experience and helping them understand how they feel. So that’s a step certainly that a child could take. And then also you’re going to want to have them have a healthy choice of some kind. So. Kranz and a journal or Play-Doh or a favorite book, a stuffed animal, maybe like a little, you know, a set of Legos. Some kids really benefit from just starting to tinker with something that helps them calm down. Some parents will say, well, aren’t we just rewarding them. They get to go over and then play with Legos. Like right. Sometimes parents can think, wait a second. That might not feel right. But if, as long as we understand the goal is for them to settle and develop healthy coping skills. And I always say, remember when your child. Well, we want them to do something healthy when they’re upset. We want them to read a book. Goodness. If they could just play some video games or do some kind of building of some kind, rather than going out and doing risky behavior, that’s really powerful. That’s what we want. And so understanding to give kids tools like that is really powerful for them to know what to do to help their brains feel better. Sue: Hey, we’d like to extend an invitation to join our private community at Therapist Uncensored.com/join – that is supercast.com. This Group is growing, it’s thriving. There are reading pods, and you will receive an ad-free feed and you’re going to get first crack at super exciting things that we do periodically bringing some of the authors in studying directly with for as little as $5 a month, please sign up at TherapistUncensored.com/join Ann: And so part of your curriculum is having pictorial representations of these kinds of steps. So that younger kids who can’t track all that, and don’t have the kind of sequencing that would needed to go from one step to the other. Lindsey: Some of the curriculum walks you through the steps in a pictorial way. For those that are just listening and not being able to see these pictures, have these steps along the way that can help them identify their feelings, et cetera, and help them know, oh, I breathe here. And then I go from one place to the next. I have a free YouTube video that explains how to set up a brain break, what can go inside and it’s done in a kid friendly way. So you could sit with your child, you could watch it together. So they have the background and then create your own calming kit of sorts. So that’s something that I will share with you so that listeners can have that as a resource, just to kind of get a feel for maybe if this is something they want to do.It’s a starting point for. Ann: That’s terrific. And we’ll have that in our show notes. We’ll have a link to that in our show notes. So anybody listening and can get some brainstorming ideas, how to make your own brain break. And also just, I would love adults out there to be thinking about what would be in their chest, because so often we don’t actually think about that. We engage in it, but we don’t actually engage in it in that really active, thoughtful way that says, oh, my goal here is to actually. Not get away from the person that just pissed us off. I mean, yes, initially that is, but it actually really is to settle the chemicals as you represented in the, in the shaking of your, what do you call that? Oh, a glitter, glitter, right? Okay. The shaking of your glitter brain, you’re like representing that part of what you’re trying to do is calm the chemicals in there. And I like what you’re saying, like, okay. Yes. So we have some, something that might be rewarding, but rarely are kids going to act out so that they can go and take a brain break because they likely to play with these kinds of things at other times. Also, they are not that thoughtful when we’re dysregulated and acting out. And in fact, I like it because it’s suggesting that taking a brain break is not the form of punishment. It is the form of calming down. And then, like you said, we’re coming back to the collaborativeness. Once we come back to being collaborative. Talk to us about discipline in that like we’ve hit somebody, right. Or child has hit somebody or they’ve thrown something across the room. We’ve helped them calm down. And now we’re going to collaborate with them. Are there any recommendations you have in terms of how to engage with the kind of consequences and accountablility? Lindsey: Definitely and I think you mentioned the word discipline, and I think that’s really powerful for us to think about what that means and what that means personally to us. And a lot of that has to do with our own upbringing. So when you hear the word discipline, when I do this, a family coaching, I just kind of ask, how does that feel in your body? When someone says, what does, what’s your discipline philosophy? Or even just the word. And for some people it can be anxiety or fear. It could be a lot of feelings. Okay. When we think about discipline rather than thinking, oftentimes we think discipline means punish, but if we just swap that out, it’s a little linguistic turn and we say, we equate discipline with T. That can change everything. It’s a game changer. So rather than saying, you know, maybe it’s you and your partner, how are we going to discipline our son for throwing the Legos? And it hit his brother in the face, right? How are we going to discipline him rather than thinking, how are we going to punish him? If you just think, what are we going to teach him through this experience? When you start to make that little shift in your mind that can really help you because ultimately if we’re doing discipline practices, that in the moment might seem like they’re effective in the short term, maybe some parents for their form of discipline that looks like spanking, or that might look like, okay, no iPad or no birthday parties, you know, for the month, or, you know, sometimes we just, we’re so quick to assign a consequence or a punishment for a certain behavior, Ann: Especially when we’re really pissed off. Right. Because there’s the satisfaction of you just done something and you are grounded for two months. There’s this. Oh, that feels so good because it makes me feel like I have some control, which obviously in that moment, that’s not really about teaching. That’s about retribution. It’s about anger, which is understandable. Don’t get me wrong. Like the best of them they’re too stiff, a consequences because I was really, really pissed off. But like what you’re saying, and that’s not really about teaching and we think we want to take the iPad away for a month to teach. I think you’re not saying don’t do that, but what you’re saying. How do you get to a place where, how are we going to teach them not to do that rather than how are we going to punish them for doing it? Lindsey: Yes. And I think as much as we can tie whatever followup we’re going to have with the child, whatever teaching opportunity that can look like accountability. So if a child’s being really inappropriate with a piece of technology, The appropriate accountability follow-up piece might be to take the iPad away for a month, but it’s connected. But if we go back to the situation where a child maybe was unsafe and threw some blocks that their brother’s head, and now you’re dealing with that situation, taking away TV or. Ipad isn’t necessarily, it might not be naturally connected. So how can we come up with an accountability system where we’re building empathy and we’re also following through with processing what happened? So what that can look like if I think one of your original questions was what does that look like? The collaboration piece, the followup. So that can look like I like to reframe as collaborative problem solving. So we’re coming alongside a child and helping them understand what did they do? And even before that, asking them, what were you feeling and thinking, because when they’re able to understand what was going on for them behind the behavior, that’s going to lead to the long-term behavioral change. Right? If we get to the root of it, just like in couples therapy and couples counseling, we want to understand what’s at the root of this behavior or this need. We want to do that with kids. So when we allow them to step back, think about what they were thinking and feeling, then we can go into what happened. And then once we figure out what happened, we can start to ask kids, well, why is this a problem? We can build empathy. Oh, when you did this, wow. Look, your brother has a little bump on his head and he’s crying, man. I know you were upset. So we validate that feeling. You were really mad and you were thinking, that is my block. My brother took my block and that’s mine. And you know what? That’s so normal to feel upset. All feelings are welcome, but not all behaviors are helpful. So how can we help kids understand that? And that’s the first piece is helping them understand what was going on for them. And then you move on to the accountability and a plan for next time. Ann: So the point, I guess, also of the brain break,in parenting specifically, although I, like you said, you keep bringing it back to couples and I can always relate to that. dynamic but as the child is taking the brain break, so are we, and so it’s highlighting for me as I’m listening that you’re separating the teaching consequence portion of it, the teaching process of it from when the child is really activated, but also when we’re really activated, right? Cause as the child is taking a brain break, we are. And so it separates the idea that we’re going to quickly come up with. Plan as we’re really pissed off and totally dysregulated ourselves. So we’re going to have to kind of step back and calm. And so when we come back at it and I love what you’re saying about inviting the kids to do that, like, what are your thoughts about what happened? And I imagine even like, what do you think. It’s going to help you not do that. Sometimes I even found with my kids, sometimes they would come up with stiffer consequences than I would, you know, as you kind of engage them as they get older, of course, they’re like, I think I shouldn’t. And it’s so interesting when you allow them, isn’t it to be part of it. They kind of own it more rather than just feel victimized in the. Yes. Lindsey: And I think what it allows us to do when we engage in like authentic curiosity. So when we sit down with them and we’re having a collaborative problem solving conversation, we really want to begin with curiosity. So in our head, we might be thinking you were upset because your brother took your block. Well, maybe something else was going on for him. Maybe that child was feeling really sad because, you know, no one has acknowledged him, you know, all the attention has been going to baby brother or, you know, sometimes kids are experiencing something totally different. So this is a problem solving reflection form. It’s a PDF and it’s two-sided and I’ll give a, download a PDF, download. So on the front side. So this is more of the processing of the problem, kind of what the language sounds like. It’s how were you feeling? What were you thinking then? What happened? Why is this a problem? And there’s different categories. Like it was a problem of safety that maybe effected learning. So I was coaching one family and the daughter was really having a hard time getting ready for school and she would fight it and say, no, I’m not getting my backpack on. And so when I went into the coaching session, I sat down with her and I said, well, why do you think it’s a problem to not get your backpack on and not put your shoes on? And she’s like, I don’t know. And then we talked about it more and she said, you know, I think that’s a problem because it affects my learning. Cause we get to school late and I miss half the math lesson. So really kind of helping them get to the bottom of it. And then as you mentioned about allowing them to be a part of the solution, that’s kind of like the repair, the accountability. So after you ask them, you know, what positive choice can you or someone else make the next time? We want to ask them, what’s the strategy you can use. So we know that we want to be safe with our brother. Cause safety is important for the block scenario. What can we do next time? Cause you were feeling, we identified that you were upset. Let’s say the child was really mad. What can you do when you feel mad the next time? Oh, you can take. Deep breaths. You can take a self-initiated brain break. You’ll find that maybe your child will just go over and they’re playing with the toys and they’re flipping the timer and then they come back and they keep playing with their sibling. So that’s great when they can identify, this is something I want to do preemptively. Ann: Oh, I think that really exciting for a lot of parents out there to see their child actually engage in that and to be able to catch them if they did take their brain break and like, I’m so impressed with you. I saw how you did that. Lindsey: Yeah. That’s what really seemed to help you. That was the. The full strategy used, and then you ask them, what can we do to solve the problem? And when we give children a menu of choices, so for instance, this problem solving reflection says, talk it out, apologize, make a sorry, letter, do something kind for the other person, clean up the mess. So for the students I had, who would throw chairs across the room, rather than saying we’re removing recess, or you’re going to be in the office for the next two hours, it takes let’s be a part of the solution. So that child would help me put the chairs back and the books away. They would be a part of cleaning it up and then maybe I think a big thing we can do is having a redo as part of that accountability. Okay. Let’s try again. So let’s pretend and you can have them act it out, so, okay. Let’s pretend that you’re upset again. And you could have baby brother come back in the room and let’s tell him, I feel upset when you take my toy. Okay. And, and so you help them act out what it could look like instead. And in couples therapy, that’s, you know, let’s make a plan for next time. And what would that have sounded like? So I think it really, this information applies to all people learning how to better connect with each other. But definitely, as you mentioned, having children be a part of that solution and coming alongside is really powerful because they do take ownership of. And they’re much more invested. Ann: That’s so true. And I love that the suggestions gives somebody some agency to say, I’ve done this and now I really am making the repair and the reconnection. That’s so hopeful. Isn’t it? It’s like as we can have a redo, I mean, it’s not just learning how to do it, is it, it’s not just learning how to be able to connect with your brother again or pick up the chair. It’s that feeling that’s given to the child. Of when I make mistakes, I can really re-engage and repair and it isn’t something that I just get cut off and sent away. It’s really adds so much hopefulness. Doesn’t it? It adds so much, I guess I keep coming back to the word agency and connection. Lindsey: Those are huge. And I think that, you know, adults and parents they’ll ask me, I want to make sure that I’m not doing things that are fostering shame, or I want to make sure that whatever practice I’m doing is that okay? Maybe they’re asking me if one of their approaches is okay or not. And I always say a great litmus test is asking yourself, how would that feel for me? What would that be like if this was used on me? So let’s say you’re at a dinner party and your partner, you’re talking with a group of friends and you interrupt your partner to share a story. And then, you know, they say. You just interrupted me. This is the third time this week, you know, you need to go walk away from the group or you need to go take a break. Like I, whenever I give that example, everyone’s like, oh, that feels so bad. Like I would be humiliated. That’d be the worst thing ever. So that kind of helps us understand, oh, when I invite my child to take a break, What’s a better way of saying it. Maybe it’s private. So if you’re in a family setting, I keep thinking of Thanksgiving, rather than saying, Sarah, you need to go take a brain break. Now that’s almost defeating the purpose. Sure. We’re using the vernacular brain break, but it’s done in a way where everyone’s listening and that can have a humiliating aspect. So if you come alongside and say, Hey, like you’re whispering. I do think your brain needs a break right now. Okay. Yeah. Let’s walk over together. That’s so much more honoring. So allowing ourselves to think, what would that feel like for me? And that gives adults a north star, if, oh yeah. I feel comfortable with this because it would feel okay with, so . Ann: It’s really doing a mind body. Check-in isn’t it like, was your body going to feel if that exact same thing was directed towards you? Would your body feel more threatened and wanting to disconnect and go away and hide, or was it going to feel more engaged to like, oh my gosh, I’m so sorry. I keep interrupting you. I don’t mean to, right. Is, am I going to want to repair? I’m going to want to hit you, you know, like, like, right. So like, it really does allow that reflective part to feel, what would I feel like? Which is what the whole goal is, right? This connection, the interpersonal part to like, we really want with our kids or with our partners or with our friends, our goal isn’t to shame somebody for interrupting us it’s to slow them down and help them connect to us more. Right. Lindsey: Definitely. And that goal of just strengthening that foundation of connection. When I work with parents and educators who say, I don’t have time for this collaborative problem solving process, my life is so busy. We’re going to soccer games, or I’m trying to teach reading, writing, and math. I don’t have time for this. Another simulation you can do is how would you feel if you got in a fight with a coworker and you were not your best self, you’re putting yourself in the shoes of your child, you were having a bad day. You had something happened at home that was unsettling. You know, we’re not your best self with them. All of us are a lot of us, as adults would want to come back and repair we’d want the next two work to be able to say, Hey, you know what, yesterday I was so upset about this has nothing to do with you. I really apologize for the way I treated you. That’s something that for a lot of us that feels good. Like we want to be able to repair and have that follow up. So for children, if we keep moving on and we don’t take the time to like, Stop and go back and repair with their sibling or with a peer at school. It’s not allowing them to have to complete the stress cycle. It’s not allowing them to have that followup with that person. And then now with this child, there’s little ruptures in their relationships, whether it be with siblings or even other adults in their life. There’s these little ruptures and it’s like this feeling where they don’t have that repair and they don’t have that follow-up piece. And I think that can start to chip away at even their self-concept. Ann: No, I think that’s so well said. No, I really agree with you. And when we say we don’t have time, your example is we don’t have time because we’re busy with soccer and math and the social, emotional learning, the things that you’re really taking the time to focus on and really want to help our listeners. And. And to teach the social emotional learning is really what is gonna be at the core of the child’s ability to not only be happy in the future, but actually be really successful to be able to connect and not have ruptures that stay in the body. And that creates cortisol that doesn’t get resolved, right? Unresolved conflict is what sticks with our body and what adds the stress. And so by taking the time to teach the social emotional part, you really are setting your kid up for success in a different way than anything else you could do. Would you agree with that? Lindsey: I completely agree. Not only are you setting them up for success and we know that that’s something we want. Another thing I tell adults is it feels like we’re, you know, we’re crunched for time, but actually when you take the time and do this teaching with your child, you know, it’s a big bang for your buck. It’s actually going to save you time in the long run, because you’re not going to have to keep coming back and addressing the same problem over and over. So it’s really about that. Long-term behavioral change. And I’ll give you an example. I had a student in kindergarten one year and she had a lot of strong feelings and some sensory and emotional regulation skills that we were working on. And there was the same problem every day after lunch, where she would come in after lunch into the classroom and feel really dysregulated she’d run around the room and, you know, would start to touch other kids. And I would say, okay, take a brain break. And I would give different tools, but I never really, this is before. Was practicing this with fidelity, the collaborative problem solving. But when I finally took the time, maybe this is after a couple of weeks to sit down with her, have this collaborative problem solving conversation, allow her to apologize to the kids that she would, you know, go and be maybe up really close in their faces. Once I had that conversation with. It was really just one problem solving conversation and follow through the behavior stopped. So we almost think that this is going to take a lot of time, but in the long run, you’ll find yourself having to teach less and less because they’re learning those skills. They’re internalizing them. So it can feel counterintuitive of well man, setting up a brain break kit or teaching my child about problem solving. It is a task. It is something to do, but not only is it going to make them more successful and thrive, it’s going to help make our lives easier. And I think that’s motivating for adults. Ann: Absolutely. Well, I love what you have. Is there anything that we haven’t gone over that you feel, but as we’re starting to wrap up, that would be like, ah, just want this, make sure that everyone out there, especially for those that maybe wouldn’t be able to have access to some of the curriculum that you’re talking about, we’re going to put the connection to the show notes. So if they’re interested in contacting, you we’ll have your contact information in there, but if somebody is out there and they’re not able to access this kind of curriculum, what would you recommend? What was the one thing you’d want them to know? Lindsey: I think it just goes back to the three CS, making sure that with any situation you encounter, how can you foster connection? Whether that’s with yourself of whoa, I feel upset. I’m really dysregulated right now. My child’s having a moment in target and everyone’s looking at me, right? So you can connect with yourself. Wow. This is hard connect with the child or your partner. I can tell you right. So that’s kind of the first thing, just that check-in and then going back to reiterate the comm. Let’s take a break. What healthy choice works for me. So maybe you set up a brain break kit, or maybe it’s just some books and a stuffed animal. And that’s, that’s just something your child knows works for them. Maybe for yourself. It’s taking a little walk around the block. A lot of my graduate students say does Netflix and chocolate work or wine or the cake, you know, for adults it looks different. So finding some things that work for you for your own calming process. And then finally, how are you having more collaborative conversations? And maybe that just sounds like. How were you feeling what was going on for you when I observed this behavior and then what can we do to solve it? What can we do next time? I think just coming back to the three CS and just knowing I can always connect common, collaborate, even if it’s really abbreviated something else I will mention is giving yourself the gift of time. Sometimes adults, when they’re starting to learn this, they think, oh, I have to implement this perfectly. And I have to know what is my collaborative conversation sound like? What’s the accountability I’m going to implement, but rather you can just say, you know, I can tell you’re upset. I’m upset. My brain is really mixed up. Let’s problem solve this when we get home. So you don’t have to have this whole game plan in the middle of target where you’re, you know exactly what the repair is going to be. But rather, you know what, this afternoon after you come back from grandma’s, we’re going to problem solve this. So just give yourself. And I know you mentioned that when as a, child’s taking a brain break, you yourself, you’re gathering your thoughts. And you’re also having that sense of regulation. And I will maybe one less piece to add is the concept of inner regulation. And this is something, you know, Dr. Siegel speaks to and then inter regulation. So I really want to emphasize that a brain break. Isn’t necessarily telling the child to go and sit in the corner, even sit in a nice little bean bag with their bag. We also want to make sure that we’re emotionally present connected to them. So maybe a brain break is, Hey, let’s go over together. We’re going to sit down and we’ll both start doodling on a piece of paper because that closeness might be just what a child needs. Just like with our adult relationships instead of being, well, you go on a walk, I’m going to go here. Maybe you go on a walk together and you’re just quiet, but you’re still together. You know, that co-regulation or that inter regulation, that’s important. So we’re not, you know, I want to make sure that we still include that because that is really healing and helpful when we can regulate together. Ann: I love that you added that part. I love that you added that the regulation isn’t always going off by ourselves and trying to figure it out. It is that you add that interpersonal part, especially for couples and friends and like, you know, how do we reconnect? I mean, how do we calm ourselves down together? What are the things cause that allows the other person to be a resource, right? Instead of the answer is to go away and come back. It’s instead letting them know, I’m a resource, even when you’re upset, I’m a resource in your bag of resources. To me, we can be a resource. I have a friend the other day that said that every time she and her partner were having complicated experiences. They would go sit in the, they have a kind of side jacuzzi and they would go sit in it. It’s awesome. And they would have to talk about whatever it was in that dynamic. So they had developed a situation where they could find a sense of connection or another example in graduate school that I’ve always found funny is that they used to encourage couples to go when they’re having a really intense fight to go stand in the bathtub. And that’s awesome. Isn’t that awesome. It’s like, it kind of immediately brings out the situation where we’re connected through humor and in this is what you said, it sort of forms a sense of connection. As we’re trying now to work through something that would typically be firing our brains, you know? So I like that you added the interpersonal that we can together interconnect to come. And that, to think about that. Cause you said, you know, the graduate students are. Wine and Netflix and like absolutely all those can be, but it might be also helpful. I would think to help people develop what’s in their chest that makes sure that it’s not just always an escape and a disappearance in in a numbing, because we can choose to put in our chest. These are like really numbing qualities instead of also like, I like the time limit, right? Like, yes, go do that. But there’s this time that you’re going to come back. And what other activities that involve interconnectedness, not just numbing and disappearing that can calm your brain and then re-engage you, right? Because if you’re just numbing and then turning it off, maybe you haven’t actually, re-engage your desire for connection and collaborativeness. Cause that last step is collaborative, right? Like if you’ve just disappeared, how have you primed yourself for collaborative? Lindsey: Exactly. And I think that when we think about our regulation toolkit, we do sometimes resort to a revert to the chocolate and the Netflix. And I tell this to my students in a perfect world. What would be your coping skills? Oh, making a healthy snack calling my mom. Cause she’s always a great listener going on a walk. If you can kind of build a toolkit of healthy choices, healthy coping skills ahead of. And then just really get in the habit of practicing those outside of a stressful situation. Then that can be kind of the best case scenario for us. And when I speak to adults who are saying, in terms of connecting with my child, why should I do that? I don’t have time for that. I just tell them to calm down to a break. Sometimes adults say. See necessarily the value of co-regulation and I’ll just start by saying, okay, let’s look down the developmental trajectory when your child is grown up. When they find a partner to be with, how do you want them to respond to their partner, their partner, to respond to them. When they come home from work from a long, stressful day, we want to co-regulate. So if you tell your partner, gosh, I had the worst day ever. Man, my coworkers are being really challenging. You wouldn’t want your partner to say that sounds like a personal problem. How about you? Go do stuff. Right. Like we’d want to feel felt, oh, what can I do? Like, let me order us pizza. Or, you know, we want to have someone who comes alongside and regulates with us. So that is, I think as adults start to think about, oh yeah, I want to foster this value of co-regulation because that’s ultimately what I want for my child when they’re adults. And when they’re looking for someone who’s going to be a healthy partner. Ann: Absolutely. Yeah. I agree with everything you just said. And if you were a listener out there and you’re thinking actually, I don’t want somebody to co-regulate with me. I think I’m supposed to go do it on my own. My kid needs to learn to do it on our own. There’s not always somebody going to be there. I mean, yes, that is the case. But if that’s where you’re really deeply entrenched, you might want to, you know, we started off the whole podcast with talking about self awareness and looking within ourselves. And if that’s where you’re landing, it may be that you probably. Could it be chance that you were left on your own to self-regulate a lot as a child and that’s what you’ve developed as your go-to, but that might be something you want to think about. Talk about, look into, right, because it’s interpersonal connectedness is what. Helps the world go around. And if you’ve learned so many things, like I’ve got to do it on my own and pick myself up, it really might be a sign that you need some more compassion and connection, and like learning to jump out in a more co-regulating way. And to challenge yourself, to maybe take a look. That’s so powerful to think back about our early childhood experiences are kind of our cohesive narrative as we form it. And I think that giving us ourselves compassion. So maybe you naturally lean towards wanting to self-regulate or inner regulate. That could be because that was really adaptive for you. Maybe growing up, you had a caregiver who wasn’t really safe. If you were vulnerable with your emotions, maybe that wasn’t safe. And so for you to do it on your own was actually really adaptive. That worked well for you. But then we can kind of get curious and things. Does that still serve me? Right. Does that, is that still adaptive or is that actually maladaptive now? Because here I have a partner who feels like I’m stonewalling them, and this is really getting in the way of our connection. I love what you said about holding space for both. Sometimes we need time to ourselves and other times we can come together. And I think when we articulate that to someone else, like, you know what. I’m so glad you’re there for me. I am so glad you want to sit in the jacuzzi with me, but actually what I do need now is to go on a walk by myself, but let’s do that later. I think giving yourself permission to utilize both forms of regulation has really empowered. Well said,let’s he so happy to have you on the show? Thank you for joining us. If somebody does not actually have access to the show notes, if they wanted to reach out to you how would they do that? Also we want to mention that you have your own podcast. It is for all ages, and it’s called positive choices, right?. Spelled PAW. Lindsey: It’s the PAWsitive Choices Podcasts spelled what the PAW – the logo of the curriculum is a paw with the heart in it, because the curriculum that’s for young children has animal characters, and there’s a lot of American sign language integrated throughout, and they use their paws to communicate with one another. So that’s kind of where it comes from. So they can search the PAWsitive Choices podcast or go to Positivechoices.com. Those are two great ways to connect. And I have, when I leave, you’ll put it in the show notes, positivechoices.com/resources, and I have links to free downloads YouTube videos. So if someone doesn’t have access to the curriculum, they can learn about all the topics we talked about today with the three. With problem solving and with taking brain breaks. Ann: I think that’s definitely one of the goals of our podcast is to get this information out to those that might not have access otherwise. So thank you for helping us in that endeavor. Of course. And we’ve so much enjoyed having you on the show. Lindsey: It’s been great. Thank you so much. Sue: We’d like to extend an invitation to anybody, listening to join our private online community. You can find that at therapistuncensored.com/join. The reason that you might be interested in such a thing is that for as little as $5 a month, you were going to get an ad-free feed, some premium content. And really it’s a very, very cool community. Occasionally we do reading pods where we gather and read together, study groups of various things. Sometimes we’re able to meet the authors or the scholars directly as we study their work. And of course it supports the show. So please consider joining us therapistuncensored.com/join Jack: Therapist Uncensored is Anne Kelley and Sue Marriott. This podcast is edited by Jack Anderson. More resources on dealing with challenging emotions and kids, social emotional learning: https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu33-adverse-childhood-experiences-a-roadmap-to-understanding-and-treatment/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu52-using-mindfulness-movement-and-yoga-to-manage-arousal-with-guest-kelly-inselmann/ Trauma-Informed Therapy with Children, with Robyn Gobbel, MSW, RPT (Therapist Uncensored Episode 142) Helping the Intense Child: The Nurtured Heart Approach (Therapist Uncensored Episode 128) Raising Secure Children With Guest Tina Payne Bryson (Therapist Uncensored Episode 27) The Space Between Self-Esteem and Self Compassion: Kristin Neff TED Talk  Raising An Emotionally Intelligent Child by Dr. John Gottman  The Power of Vulnerability TED Talk by Brené Brown Become a neuronerd! 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Join our online community! Using neuroanatomy and her experience having a massive stroke that took her self-conscious mind, Dr. Jill Bolte-Taylor and Sue Marriott discuss the 4 skill subsets in the brain that help us relate to ourselves and the world. Her TED Talk was the first one to ever go viral and has been viewed now 27 million times, so her ideas are clearly inspiring. Her new work brings together psychology, neurobiology and spiritual awakening. NOTE Dec, 2021:  We will be releasing deeper dive episodes of Jill Bolte-Taylor’s work and explore Whole Brain Living together on our private feed (only $5/mo).  In addition, once we get through the book, we will have a live discussion all together in Jan, 2022. Join us by clicking the image to the right or go to www.therapistuncensored.com/join  Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor is a Harvard-trained neuroanatomist who suffered a stroke that led her on a path to rediscovering her brain. Her viral TED Talk, “My stroke of insight,” was the inspiration for her first book, My Stroke of Insight: A Brain Scientist’s Personal Journey. Now she’s back to offer a deeper insight into the inner workings of the mind with her latest book, Whole Brain Living: The Anatomy of Choice and the Four Characters That Drive Our Life. In this episode, she dives deep into how the four distinct parts of our brain dictate how we live and be in the world. She gives great insight on how we can create anatomy by truly getting to know these four characters and owning our power. Tune in for this interesting and eye-opening discussion that could change the way you live your life. Show Notes: 00:00:00 Introduction 00:03:30 The Beginnings Of Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor 00:06:18 On her viral TedTalk 00:08:17 What science can’t explain 00:10:10 Left hemisphere vs right hemisphere 00:14:51 From My Stroke of Insight To Whole Brain Living, the individual in the left brain vs the individual in the right brain 00:19:40 The Four Characters: Character 1(top-left) & 2(left lower limbic) 00:31:38 How your brain can change the narrative 00:36:00 Regulation in the limbic system 00:40:53 The Four Characters: Character 3(right lower limbic) & 4(top-right) 00:50:08 The BRAIN Huddle and our personal power to choose how we want to be 01:00:40 What’s next for Dr. Jill 01:02:27 The harmony of all Characters as the evolution of humanity 01:04:08 How to contact Dr. Jill 01:06:41 Psychedelics and connection with the planet 01:09:50 More on how to contact Dr. Jill Hear more psychology and neuroscience in previous episodes: Episode 93 Polyvagal Theory with Dr. Stephen Porges Episode 110 Story Follows State (more polyvagal theory) with Deb Dana   Episode 117 Resilience Trauma and the Brain with Dr. Bruce Perry  — Listen to the podcast here: Whole Brain Living – Psychology + Neuroanatomy + Spirit with Dr. Jill Bolte-Taylor Transcript: Ann Kelley: You are going to be blown away by this episode with Jill Bolte Taylor. We didn’t find out until after the interview that Oprah Winfrey named her as one of her all-time favorite guests and you’re going to see why. This episode is a conversational mix of fascinating life stories, insights about neuroanatomy and psychology and good inspiration. Jill Bolte Taylor is a Harvard-trained neuroanatomist who started her career researching the brain and mental illness but she suffered a stroke on the left hemisphere of her brain. Through her experience of the stroke itself and her recovery, she continues to bring some of the most amazing insights regarding brain function and Whole Brain Living: The Anatomy of Choice and the Four Characters That Drive Our Life. Her TED Talk was the very first one to go viral, I believe, with almost 28 million views. In this episode, my cohost, Sue Marriott, explores her thoughts on what made her message take off and what she was tapping into that people needed. After her first book called My Stroke of Insight: A Brain Scientist’s Personal Journey, she was awarded Time Magazine’s 100 Most Influential People in the World. When we got ahold of her new book, Whole Brain Living, we knew it was exactly the material our readers would want. We are thrilled she accepted Sue’s invitation to come to the show. We’re going to be organizing a Therapist Uncensored reading pod for this new book for our supporters, our Neuronerd community. We will try at some point to put together something for the public on how to apply this material but we’re going to start with our Neuronerd community. This is a great time to jump in and become a show supporter if you haven’t already because not only will you get things like this reading pod as well as an ad-free podcast. Most importantly, hopefully, you’re also going to be helping Sue and I produce this great content for you and many across the globe who might not otherwise be able to run into it. If you can, we would appreciate it. Join us at www.TherapistUncensored.com/join. Without further ado, let’s jump in with my cohost, Sue Marriott and Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor. — Welcome, Jill. I’m so delighted to have you with us. Thank you, Sue. I’m happy to be here. An audience of our show brought you to my attention. I had seen your work a while back but the exciting thing was she had brought your new book to my attention. I read it and it is incredible. There’s so much practical and real-life sense in it that I immediately wanted to bring you on and let us share this with everybody because anybody anywhere reading this is going to benefit from your thoughts. Thank you. I feel that way. Anybody who’s got a brain, the better we know. It’s an owner’s manual. How are you anatomically organized? What can you know about that? How can you differentiate those different parts, use them and recognize them in other people? You make it simple and straightforward. We’re going to get into that in detail because I want people to walk away from this show understanding these ideas. We can take half a step back and share a little bit about your journey and how you got here, picking up wherever you would like as far as what you would like us to know about you. I became fascinated with the brain as a little girl because my brother was only eighteen months older than me. We would have the same situation and walk away with very different interpretations about what happened. For example, if we were playing near the street and our mom G.G. would come running out screaming, he thought she was angry. I thought she was scared for us. It’s how we interpret the experience at the level of the brain. Eventually, I grew up to study the brain and he grew up to be diagnosed with schizophrenia. I was fascinated with how does our brain creates our perception of reality. What is reality? At a cellular level, how is it that my brother’s brain is organized and wired differently than my brain so I can connect my dreams to my reality but he could not. He ended up experiencing delusions. I was teaching and performing research at Harvard Medical School and studying which cells communicate with which cells with which chemicals and what quantities of those chemicals in which portions of the brain. I woke up one day at the age of 37 and I was experiencing a major hemorrhage in the left half of my brain. Over the course of four hours, I watched my brain completely deteriorate in its ability to process information about the external world. My right hemisphere was still onlin e but the left hemisphere completely disappeared. On the morning of the stroke, I could not walk, talk, read, write or recall any of my life. I was an invalid in a woman’s body and I gave a TED Talk. If your readers recognize the story, it has 28 million views. It was the first TED Talk to ever go viral. The fundamental difference between having a right brain and a left brain is the right brain is in the present moment. The left brain comes online and defines with a holographic image of me, the individual. Do you have a sense of why that is? What was speaking to people? First of all, we were primed. There were only 5 or 6 TED Talks online in 2008 because Chris Anderson had purchased the company and changed it. He was bringing his modern guy and he was bringing it into the internet world. We were the first group in 2008. They said, “Half of you, we will post you. Half of you, don’t worry if you do badly. No one will ever see it.” My TED Talk was right at the beginning of the conference and it was the last talk in the first session. TED is about the big ideas and the big idea question was, “Who are we?” TED had heard my experience so they invited me. I came to it through the perspective of who are we inside of me because ultimately, regardless of how we’re looking anthropologically or sociologically as societal humanity, who are we inside of our brain? It’s to take that journey and hold the space for people to let go of their left brain, which is the identification of me, the individual or the self and to shift away from the self into the experience of all that is. Many of us have had these experiences where we feel connected to all that is. Yet, there’s that me over here and there’s this internal conflict between different value structures. People resonated through their heart consciousness, which is essentially the right hemisphere and then there is the cognitive consciousness, which is the left hemisphere. Everybody could relate to it and it exploded into the world. It makes me think of hunger that must have been there for something more that wasn’t too woo-woo and mystical where we would lose a lot of people. It was a translation of the mystical into scientific terms. We have all of these experiences that we cannot explain. It doesn’t mean we’re not having the experiences and they’re not real. It simply means we don’t have the science that is designed and structured in a way that is capable of capturing the experience and measuring the experience so that we can talk about it at the level of language and linearity, measure it and be able to duplicate it through the scientific method. By definition, the scientific method is a method. You have to have linear thinking. That is the way the left brain processes. Science is essentially measuring the physical world that we experience through our left brain. It’s not very good at being able to replicate, capture or measure these other experiences that we’re having that we would often define as spiritual or woo-woo. It makes me think of the translation and the left brain doesn’t want to hear it. It’s threatening to get into something that it can’t understand. Whole Brain Living: The Anatomy of Choice and the Four Characters That Drive Our Life It’s easy to criticize, reject and push away when we don’t know. The fact of the matter is there’s so much that we don’t know. You can go out onto the street and say, “Do you believe in global warming?” People say, “No.” It’s like, “What do you know about global warming?” They will say, “Pretty much nothing.” We’re inclined to make this negative judgment as to the knee-jerk response to that which we don’t know or don’t understand as opposed to, “Tell me more. I’m open to the possibility.” It’s for some of the folks that believe that talking about the left brain and the right brain is old school. That’s not old school. It went a little bit crazy. There’s no question. If you want to know everything that we pretty much know a lot anyway about the differences between the right hemisphere and the left hemisphere, there’s a magnificent book by Dr. Iain McGilchrist. He’s male. Second, he’s a psychiatrist and medical doctor. He’s a lovely human being. He has written this tome of what do we know based on lab work over the years. It’s called The Master and His Emissary: The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World. He will take you into all the bird studies, even birds, other creatures and at the level of the molecules spiral in different orientations, based on how they’re organizing information. The people who are poo-pooing the difference between the right and the left hemisphere need to dig a little bit deeper at the data that we have. I will give them the argument that you’re not just this or that. We’re both. We are this combination and there are millions of circuits going on at the same time. However, the human brain can only focus on one true circuit at a time. Where is that circuit? If I’m doing my creativity then I have to release myself from the box of what is right, wrong, good and bad. Those loops are organized in the left hemisphere. The left hemisphere is good at creating structure and order in the way that it defines right and wrong but that has to be quiet for my brain to become innovative and creative. There’s no question about the way that the brain is organized. You can’t come in and say, “The right brain is all about this and the left brain is all about that. You’re either this or that.” We’re this magical mixture but the question is, “Do I know how to capitalize on all the things going on inside of my head?” That’s what my new book, Whole Brain Living is about. How do I identify and differentiate which parts of my brain I’m embodying at any moment in time? When I understand the character profiles that are radiating from the subsets of skillsets at a neuroanatomical level then I can choose to be in that character or identify which character someone else is exhibiting. It’s based on the anatomy of the brain. I’m not coming in and saying anything new. I’m saying, “Take everything that we understand to be true, all the research that we believe to be true and all the experiential that we don’t know how to measure but we know people have these experiences. Let’s put it in the brain.” Look at the anatomy of the brain, create a paradigm where we can marry our psychology and what we believe to be true on personality and put that in the brain. In Iain McGilchrist, there’s also an RSA in animation that explains this very quickly. You have had the actual experience of it so it’s inarguable. When people go and talk about the characters later sometimes they’re going to have to deal with the pushback of it. That’s too simple or something like that. It’s nice to get from the horse’s mouth. This is what you have to say about that. That will empower people to be able to use this. There are Four Characters. There are two emotional characters, one in each hemisphere and two thinking character tissue or modules of cells. Also, as you learn about the Four Characters, the part of the brain that comes out with critical hostility is a specific character inside of ourselves. Those of us who get caught up in that negative circuitry don’t like being told we’re being negative or this or that. The real power is being able to say to these people, “You also have these other parts of yourself.” If for some reason we get routinized in certain circuitry because that’s how we interact with the world, are we truly using our whole brain? We don’t want to use our whole brain because we don’t want to be miserable all the time, in pain, critical and mean all the time. We do want to rest, be at peace, get a whole bunch done and play. Wouldn’t it be lovely if we could find a relationship with the love that exists in the universe that, “That’s woo-woo? That’s bad.” It’s not. It’s right there in your brain and you can find it if you’re open to the possibility. From your first book, which is My Stroke of Insight, to this book, how did that happen? Where are you with that? Book number one was a memoir of the experience of stroke through the eyes of a scientist. I had to write that book because my mother said, “Jill, you’re on the phone helping all these people, 8 to 10 hours a day and you don’t have a life. You need to write this down so that you can give them the material and distribute it so anybody in need can access it.” It was like, “You’re going to make me sit down and write.” I did because I had been sharing it so much with people in need that I did. That was book number one. It’s still pretty much in the Amazon marketplace. It’s the number one book on stroke because it’s a fascinating experience of watching your brain deteriorate through the eyes of a scientist who thinks in terms of brain circuitry. What I needed to recover is what got in the way of that recovery. The journey to book number two was that I think in terms of cells and circuits. It’s how I have organized my brain and life, especially in the rebuilding of that circuitry. To me, I lost the left brain so I lost the left rational thinking me. She was gone and I lost the pain from my past part of me and my emotional system. She died completely and had to be reborn in a new time but I had this magnificent experiential character right here of my right emotional tissue. I had this right-thinking tissue that had me connected to all that is and I was as big as the universe. The fundamental difference between having a right brain and a left brain is the right brain is in the present moment. The left brain comes online and defines with a holographic image of me, the individual. All the filtering of information for the left brain comes through the filter of me, the individual. If people don’t think there’s a difference between me, the individual and know me, the individual then they have never had that experience. It doesn’t mean it’s not real. You can ruin a group of cells in the left parietal region, which creates a holographic image of my body, where I begin and where I end. You wipe those out and I have no perception of the self as an individual. With that comes language and with language, there’s the linearity of thinking. Part of linear thinking is, “I am an individual. I am separate from the atoms and the molecules around me.” You wipe that out. I’m sorry, ladies and gentlemen but you become a part of the whole with no distinction of self. I did not know what a mother was, much less who my mother was and this was pretty fundamental information. I have to have a left brain to create that information. I was living and breathing this concept of my two emotional systems and two thinking brains. I knew them very well because I lost two. I had to purposely use my right brain characters to set me up for success and regain the skillsets of my left emotion tissue and my left thinking tissue. What I realized was once they came back online, they had a personality and it was a strong personality. My Character 1 rational thinking left tissue comes back on and she says, “It’s great to be back. I want to take over the brain again. I want to be the boss in here.” We’re all in here looking at her going, “We are so glad you’re back online because we need your skillsets and we love you. Thank goodness you’re back but you’re not going to be the boss anymore. We’re going to have a democracy inside of this head.” That’s what I created. I created a tool of communication between these four very distinctive characters. When I was giving a presentation, I was talking about how great it is to talk about the brain these days because people know the terminology. They know about the amygdala, the hippocampus and the anterior cingulate gyrus. It’s all very exciting. The fact of the matter is we have 2 amygdalae, 2 hippocampi and 2 anterior cingulate gyri. There was an audible gasp in the room and I realized that was what was wrong. People think we have one emotional system. We don’t. There’s one in the present and one about me, my past and my future. As soon as we can differentiate those emotions, clarity comes in. For readers of our show, people are very familiar with the different levels. You’re right. It’s typically discussed in terms of midbrain and prefrontal cortex as one thing. One of the things that were exciting was just even beginning to think about is that it solves the left brain problem anyway because you have both. The other thing that you did with it is you personalized it. That was so lovely. One of the ways that you work with these ideas is that you wake up and check in with everybody. I was so touched by that like, “This one is not awake yet.” It’s not shaming. There’s no mortality to it. It’s cells and circuits. I am all of it. We are all of it. Each of these groups of cells is communicating with us in one way or another, even that part of us that doesn’t have language and has rage, unhappiness, desperation, attack, self-attack and all that. It’s still the energy of communication. They’re all important. There are Four Characters. There are two emotional characters, one in each hemisphere and two thinking character tissue or modules of cells. These are actual modules of cells that perform certain subsets of ability. I encourage everybody to name your character your name because it has to be important to you. I call my Character 1. She’s my rational left brain thinking tissue. That tissue is specifically designed to organize and categorize my external world so I can interact with the external world. She organizes and categorizes. She has that holographic image of me, the individual and defines me as me. She knows my name and address. You wipe her out. She defines what is right, wrong, good and bad. She thinks hierarchically. She’s materialism-based. She cares about how big the house is compared to the neighbors. She’s a control freak. She controls people, places and things. Thank goodness we have a Character 1 and I call my Character 1 Helen. It’s short for hell on wheels. She gets it done. Sue, what have you named your Character 1? I was thinking of it as Taskmaster but what I realized is I had the playful names on the right side and then the more functional names on the left side. Also, I’m still learning it and I want to teach it and share it so Taskmaster was what came to mind. That’s what it is. It’s the taskmaster. It’s going to make and follow the to-do list. The phone is going to ring. It’s going to use this tone of voice and say, “What can I do for you?” There’s a difference between the innate experience of joy, and happiness based on external circumstances. Instead of the Golden Retriever? Character 1 is busy. This part of ourselves is our Type A personality. It organizes our life and gets them done. Some of us have a lot more of that than others. You can walk into anybody’s house, open some drawers and pretty much see. Some people alphabetize their spices. I would not be one of those people. My Helen goes and works in the office. In my office, I’ve got piles but I’ve been gone for six months so I do have an excuse. Helen is on it and she cares enough to say, “Ladies and gentlemen, I have been gone for six months. That’s why my office is a mess.” Nobody else in my brain cares about that. Your brain might not care either. That’s Character 1. It’s the thinking rational tissue of our left brain that specifically organizes our relationship. It’s the relationship of me, the individual in relationship with the external world. I have to be organized as me, the mass in relationship with that external world. Language is important. It’s going to count well and be good with mathematics and engineering because it’s going to think linearly. It’s going to be good mechanically because it’s good at looking at pieces and putting them together. If I take this piece and stick it in there before I take that other washer and stick it in there in between, it’s not going to work. It’s that linearity and organization of thinking. That’s Character 1. It’s top-left and the left side tends to have some of the negativity. Some of it, as you said is the comparison and those kinds of things. It’s going to compare and compete. It’s me, the individual away from you. I’m now separate from you so I’m going to compete with you for that job on that hierarchy because we both want the bigger house. We want more money in our paycheck. We’re going to compete and compare with one another, “What shoes are you wearing? I can make a critical judgment while I can wear a stiletto. I got 6 inches going under me.” It’s all this comparison and competition. Do you think that this is related to some of the findings that they’re finding in psilocybin research and psychedelic research about being able to turn off those parts of the brain to experience something different? That’s essentially what happened to my brain. I wiped out my left brain characters. Psilocybin wipes out that left brain and brings you into the experiential of the peacefulness of the present moment. There are so many positive findings of that. Once you experience it, you can’t unexperience it. It’s done. This is why a very little bit of treatment can change the course. We have top-left. My Stroke of Insight: A Brain Scientist’s Personal Journey Think about the top-left versus the bottom-left. The top-left is the thinking analytical neocortex, the prefrontal cortex and those lovely things that will go in with that. Below that is the limbic emotional tissue of the left hemisphere, where the left hemisphere has linearity of time. It has the past, the future and me, the individual. My personal past got wiped out because that’s where the hemorrhage happened. The emotion, pain, trauma and craving of my addictions from the past are all going to be right there in Character 2. In the Character 2, there’s an interesting controversy that happens about the whole happiness psychology. There’s a group of people that say, “We’re happy in that left emotional system.” We are happy when what is happening outside us is what we want it to be. We’re not happy when what’s happening outside of us is not what we want it to be. It’s not just where we’re happy. It’s also where we’re sad, mad or angry from the past. It’s all our past emotional baggage. Compare that emotion to the deep inner joy of simply being alive and existing in the present moment. Joy is more what’s going on in the right brain as compared to happiness and happiness under certain circumstances. Let’s say you and I are going to go for a picnic and we’re both excited. It’s raining outside and then little Character 2 is going, “I’m not very happy because I wanted to go for a picnic with Sue and now it’s raining.” The sun shines and then now I’m happy. I can train myself to be that happy under more adaptable or flexible circumstances based on the external but inside me, I’m pretty happy anyway. I got joy going on. That is my right-brain experience. There’s a difference between the innate experience of joy and happiness based on external circumstances. I call my little Character 2 Abby. Abby is short for abandoned. I believe that the moment I came flying out of my mother’s womb where I was in a symbiotic relationship with this beautiful limbic environment, I heard the drumming of my mother’s heart and I was part of it all. All of a sudden, I’m shocked by this singularity of being. I’ve got lights burning my brain like wildfire sound and people poking, prodding and in some cases sticking needles into me. To me, that’s the moment of abandonment. Upon that circuitry, all of my pain from my childhood gets built on top of that circuitry. We have this little unhappy, critical, potentially mean, blaming, pointing-the-finger and mad at self, “I’m not worthy. I’m not good enough. I’m craving this. I need that.” All of that is inside of us inside of that little Character 2. The value of the Character 2 is those cells at the level of the reptilian brain, which is essentially our midbrain. We have that new added-on mammalian tissue of the limbic tissue, one on each side, which is going to be fight or flight in the present moment in the right and the experience from the past or fear of the future in that left. The beauty of the Character 2 is information has streamed in and gone immediately into both of those amygdalae. The amygdala of the left hemisphere emotional tissue immediately takes what is in the present moment and says, “Have I ever experienced this before? Is there a reason why I should push it away and say no?” That’s amazing. The cells themselves are jumping out of the present moment experience because the present moment experience is a level of consciousness. These cells are willing to step out of that blissful and peaceful euphoria of the present experience and say, “Have I ever experienced or seen something like that before?” For example, I’m 60 years old and I see a dog. I remember when I was ten years old, I was riding a bike and a dog that looked like that was nipping at my feet and trying to bite me. For the next 50 years, every time I see a dog like that, that amygdala goes alert, “I don’t feel safe because I have seen that dog before and that dog’s not safe. I need to push it away.” The breath is something that we can immediately bring our minds to in the present moment to stabilize ourselves in the body in relationship with these limbic cells. It’s amazing and because the Character 1 tissue is developed above and on top of Character 2 then Character 1 is designed to refine the experience of what’s going on with Character 2. That’s what’s going on in the left hemisphere. The left hemisphere is not in the present moment. It’s about me, the individual. It has the past and future because it is programmed at the level of those cells as they’re taking the exit and going into that limbic system at the left brain to step out of the consciousness of the present moment. One of the things I love about what you’re saying is this doesn’t have to be trauma. Everybody has this birth experience and lower-left limbic that has the raw feeling. The brain, the top part, comes up and makes a story. You didn’t say that exactly this way but there’s a story about why they’re feeling that way. Is that right? You’re right. We talk a lot about our narrative. What is our narrative? Can we update and change our narrative and therapy? You said a lower-left limbic. I like that. That’s for all right there, the three Ls. The lower-left limbic is dysregulation and an alarm alert, “I don’t feel safe.” I can become dysregulated from my normal neurological happy functioning self. When I move into the alarm alert, I don’t feel safe. I have anxiety and fear. I need to go and push away. We’re biologically programmed to save our lives. We have this thinking tissue that comes in as a human being. The portion of our brains that are separate from other mammals is the neocortex. That’s to find and create in the left brain me, the individual and language. I can create the story and take the energy of, “I don’t feel safe,” and weave in that left brain the story. Do we have the power to change that narrative? Absolutely. We just made it all up based on a piece of data. It’s genius at what it does. Each of these groups of cells is genius at what they do. It doesn’t mean they’re right. It just means they’re a genius and good at what they’re designed to do. They’re taking care of us. For our readers, we talk a lot about attachment. The attachment system is that you first have the biological experience. Then that gets encoded in neural grooves. I call it neural grooves. You’ve got the freeway of this is what’s happening. The internal working model is the story that gets laid on that, “People are safe. People are not safe. I’m worthy. I’m unworthy. People are going to let me down.” It’s those sorts of things. Those cells in that left brain are attracted toward that which feels familiar. Safe is defined by that group of cells as, “Does it feel familiar?” If it feels familiar then it’s safe. Let’s say I’m looking at a person. I have blonde hair and blue eyes. If someone with black hair and black eyes comes in, they represent a different religion that I’m not familiar with or if they’re a different race than I am then I am programmed at that level to push away and say, “That’s not familiar to me. Those smells of curry and different aromas, I have never had those before.” That’s a push away. Our whole racism system is at a biological level but can we train these and use our whole brain to say, “I want to go toward that instead of push away from that.” One of our taglines is, “It’s not me. It’s my medulla.” It’s the same thing. It’s like, “That’s my reaction to something novel. It’s not true and it’s not that I’m bad that I have a fear reaction.” We need that. It’s designed to save our lives a million times in our lifetime. It’s not bad. None of these systems is bad. The question is, “How do you want to live your life?” Do you want to live your life, always feeling that fear and push away or do you want to recognize I’m feeling anxious? There’s something out there that doesn’t feel familiar so it doesn’t feel safe. Character 1 can come on, make the assessment and say, “Do I need to fix something or rearrange something?” It’s all about fixing and controlling for you to be able to relax so that you can at that dinner party go toward that person who is different from you instead of cuddling over here on the corner with other people who are like you. That should be your next book. It’s the cultural and social implications of this. Can I ask a more detailed question if you don’t mind? I’m excited to get to the right side because that’s the fun part. Are you familiar with Stephen Porges and The Polyvagal Theory: Neurophysiological Foundations of Emotions, Attachment, Communication and Self-regulation? Absolutely. He mentioned Bloomington there. We love him. I have had both him and his wife talking about oxytocin and all of that. Our audience is very interested in that kind of thing. There’s the regulation, upregulation or downregulation. Are we still talking about that happening on the left side of the lower-left? Is that both the right and left? I’m thinking of the limbic part and the defensive reaction whether we upregulate or downregulate. What I’m thinking, based on what you’re saying is that how you dysregulate is a detail within the left side or the left limbic. Is that right? I haven’t explored his wiring maps. I would have to do that. I do know that more than 70% of the fibers are coming up from the body to the brain instead of down. If we want to self-regulate in Characters 2 and 3, the limbic system is going into the body, using the body and wiring ourselves up, which is why for the BRAIN Huddle, the very first step is the breath. The breath is something that we can immediately bring our minds to in the present moment to stabilize ourselves in the body in relationship with these limbic cells. The entire stress circuit is what’s going on in the left brain in relationship to Character 1 and Character 2 going up and down. I haven’t had my head in his book for a long time. I will go back and look at that. I think of it as the Toddler. There’s the Taskmaster and then the bottom-left is a little toddler. I’m not sure if that fits but at the moment, dysregulation and seize the problem. The thing about the limbic cells is they never mature. Our little unhappy and wounded self from our past never matures. They’re different ages depending on where our traumas come in and when we stopped being heard. For some of us, it’s as infants. For some of us, we were little toddlers, 5 or 6 or teenagers. It never gets past that. For the right brain, we’ll get there. The BRAIN Huddle: Breathe, Recognize, Appreciate, Inquire, Navigate I want everyone to know what you said, which is they never grow up. It’s going to be that way. When you are doing therapy and a lot of work and you dysregulate again or regress into some of these behaviors, it’s not that you’re doing anything wrong. It’s simply that in this case, the whole brain has broken through and there are things to do about that. Certainly, it’s beating yourself up that, “I thought I dealt with that.” It’s all of those sorts of things. We don’t want to deal with it and we don’t want to make it go away. This is why, especially that Character 2. Character 2 takes the present moment, takes it into the past and says, “Have I ever seen this before? Give me a reason to push away.” It’s because of those cells that we have the potential for growth. That’s our growth edge. I know if I have an alarm alert that is based on my history, that’s where I’m stuck. That’s my growth edge. I can either try to deny it, push it down, go off into my Character 1 and rationalize my way around it or go into my Characters 3 or 4 and escape it all together into the present moment. That’s the pipe and the pipe is now getting stuffed with something in there. I need to get it unplugged. Blow out the Drano, pull that out and examine what is that bias inside of my perception that gives me this negative impact physiologically into my body. The thing about when the amygdala goes on alarm alert, our normal safe selves, which is what we want to neural regulate ourselves to. We have been stripped of that. We want to go back to that peaceful neural regulation of self because otherwise, that’s going to be a disturbance inside of ourselves physiologically. It’s going to be stimulating that stress circuitry on top of it. That’s when the cells in our body are going and that’s when we get sick. If we’re living in that stress and that of normal and healthy regulation, the whole body is on alarm alert. The brain is brilliant. The way you’re describing it is how smart that lower-left is. This is not something we want to cut out of ourselves like a bruise on an apple. This is integral and very much part of things. I love you calling it the growing edge but with enough safety only. Let’s pop right and talk about safety and being able to manage. As we’re thinking about them, we got Character 1 in left thinking and high thinking and Character 2 in the lower-left limbic. Character 3 is going to be right-lower limbic and then Character 4 will be right thinking. It’s the neocortex of that right hemisphere. With the right hemisphere, the biggest difference is I don’t exist as an individual anymore. That’s all about me. All my details are in the left hemisphere. Wipe out the left hemisphere. I experienced myself to be big as the universe. That was the gift of the stroke that I experienced. I completely wiped out me, the individual and existed in an absolute quiet brain for five full weeks. It was two and a half weeks before I had surgery after the hemorrhage and then two and a half weeks after. There’s language as the brain begins to recover. I could start hooking back into different circuits in that left brain because the blood clot that was the size of a fist in the beginning and then the size of a golf ball by surgery, once they took that pressure off then it could start to begin again. It was like tuning in to a radio that started as static. In the absence of that, I had no identity and definition of individuality. I was as big as the universe. The left hemisphere wasn’t there to participate. I was connected to all that is and I felt enormous and expansive. All I felt was this incredible experience of love. I was so happy. I would be sitting on a couch drooling and completely wounded. My mother would look at me and she would say, “Why are you so happy?” I look at her and I smile because I was in such awe that this organic thing and collection of 50 trillion cells were alive. I could experience a light coming in from the external. I could hear sound. I couldn’t make any sense out of any of it but I was this machine that was alive. I was so caught up in the awe that I would weep. People say, “When people have left brain damage, they cry all the time. They’re unhappy and miserable.” That’s a misinterpretation of data. We are in such awe that we exist and all the miracle of life makes us weep. It’s amazing. I know that there are people resonating with you around that meditate, spirituality and all of these things. I want to keep the thread of this more social piece. I love what you said about the person, the smells and things like that. If they put their forehead to the ground to pray, that’s foreign and scary. We don’t have mirror neurons versus if you hear hymns or something that you have been raised with, immediately you signal safety and even inappropriately like, “We’re together here because we’re not discerning.” There’s the bottom-right. The right limbic emotion is experiential. There’s an amygdala there, a hippocampus and an anterior cingulate gyrus. We have half the limbic system right there in the right hemisphere as we did in the left. The right hemisphere doesn’t have me, the individual. It has the experience of the present moment. What is the experience of the air? How much humidity do I feel in the air? What’s the temperature of the air? How does it feel to have these glasses on my face? What does it feel like to have the clothing on my body? It’s the energies around me, to have the warmth of the dog on my lap and the experience of the present moment. This is the part of us that is alive. It’s alert and in the present moment. It doesn’t have right, wrong, good or bad. It’s creative and open to possibility. It doesn’t have me, the individual. It’s communal and, “I want to play with you, do things with you, get lost playing music with you, do art with you and go out into the woods and explore with you.” It’s an adrenaline junkie. It’s like, “Sue, let’s go parachuting, hang gliding or do this.” It’s also the part of us that at this moment come up with a bad idea, “Let’s go pick a fight, do this or do that.” A lot of Character 3s end up in jail because they weren’t thinking, “What were you thinking?” “I wasn’t thinking. I was experiential. I was swept away by the experience.” I call my Character 3 Pigpen because of the little character in Charles Shultz’s Peanuts. Pigpen was walking around in a dust storm and he’s good. In his dust storm, he’s like, “I could have dust from Babylonia in me. Isn’t that exciting?” It’s all the possibilities. We’re playful, creative and innovative. That’s that experiential tissue. The thinking tissue that’s added on as the human being is the neocortex of the right hemisphere. It’s not about me, the individual. It’s about my connection to all that is, including the consciousness of the cells of my body. When we learn new things, the stress circuitry of the left brain is dominant. There’s the relationship between the right hemisphere, the heart consciousness, the gut consciousness and the intuition. What is intuition? It’s our ability to experience information on a bigger plane and make decisions based on that pattern response as opposed to the details of the left hemisphere. When we pray, we pray to silent the left brain and the verbiage so that we can open up the experience of the present moment where we experience something grander and greater than we are. When we meditate, we do the same thing. When we perform yoga, we step into Character 3. There are rhythmic portions of our relationship with poses in our body. We open up those energy flows so that we can experience and escape that left-brain Character 1 and 2 circuitry and open ourselves to that experience of being one with all that is. It’s beautiful there. I’ve tagged it for the moment as Buddha. We have the power to choose moment by moment who and how we want to be in the world. That’s the ultimate goal of the hero’s journey. It’s the ultimate goal of finding Christ and God. The left brain may pray or mantra to preoccupy those centers in the left brain. The ultimate goal of every religion that I’m aware of is to get from the action and operation into the experience of being. Essentially, we’re quieting the left brain so that we can open ourselves up to what is beyond or what is greater and how we are connected to all that is. In the work of Andrew Newberg, he identified that it’s a quieting of those language centers of that left brain when nuns found God or monks found peace. The word surrender comes to mind. There’s that. The left brain feels like, “That’s my ego. That’s me. I can’t surrender because surrender is synonymous with death. If I put that aside, I have to kill me off to experience the other.” It’s right there in your brain. That little group of cells is right there. You can say, “Little Character 2 and Character 1, we’re right here. You can jump online anytime you need to but for this moment, can we breathe deeply?” You’re sharing with us a little bit about how you pull these back together around the BRAIN Huddle. Have we said enough about the top-right? I hope your people think so. Otherwise, there’s a book there for them. One thing that I would do want to say is that you call your top-right Queen Toad. Queen because she’s as big as the universe and connected to all that is. Toad because I’m a bit goofy and I don’t take myself that seriously. If I die, Queen Toad is good with it because I lived and had this experience. I don’t have to be greedy and say, “I have to have 100 years of this.” It’s the phenomenon and the sense of gratitude that I exist at all. I was able to recover those other tools of that left-brain skillset. I don’t want to live under that stress. I want to be able to go there and do those things but I don’t want them making my decisions for me. My brain is now a democracy. I call it the BRAIN Huddle. BRAIN is the acronym. B stands for Breath. Bring your consciousness into your chest. Breath is something that happens in the present moment. From the moment we’re born until the moment we’re gone, there is this steady train on a track called breath. I can bring my mind into the present moment, think about my chest, amplify that, increase the frequency or the depth of my breath and consciously change it in the present moment. B means to bring your brain to the present moment. The best way to do that is to breathe. That’s why in all of these Eastern techniques, the first thing you do is focus on the breath.   R is Recognize. What are the Four Characters? I got all these Four Characters in my brain. The better I get to know them, the easier it gets to recognize when they’re alive and active in me. Who walked in the room with you, Sue? You got all four too. In any relationship between two people, there are eight of us and most of us are clearly aware of that. If you walk in as your Character 2 and I’m in my Character 1, I might realize, “Sue is unhappy and needs my attention.” I got to put down my busy, go into my Character 4, come over, scoop you up and say, “I’m right here. What do you need? Do you need me to hear you? Do you need to talk to me?” I consciously shift. R is Recognize. Who am I being? Who was I being before I called this BRAIN Huddle? Who’s around me? A stands for Appreciate that I have four to pick from. I’ve got all four and they’re all available to me at any moment. The better I know them, the better I can jump into them. B is Breath and R is Recognize. Who called the BRAIN Huddle? Who was there? A is Appreciate that I have all four. I is Inquire in this next moment. It’s like with that example. Sue came in and was unhappy as her Character 2. I’m inquiring, “Character 1 is inappropriate at this moment because Sue is okay. She doesn’t have to fix anything.” In my Huddle, I’m inquiring, “Who should come out next?” N stands for Navigate the next moment. At this moment, the next moment for me is I should jump into my Character 4, which is loving, open, supportive and come and be your friend and help you as you’re in your Character 2. We connect instead of fixing, which is what Character 1 wants to do. Character 3 can come in and say, “Little Sue, can we go play? Do you want to go do this or that? Let’s go do this.” You jump into your little Character 3 and say, “Thank you for loving me, being with me and supporting me. Let’s go play.” It’s because Character 2 feels safer now. What has happened at a neurological level is each of these are four different levels of consciousness that are vibrating in different frequencies with different vibes. We all know that. If you walk into a fight, you walk into a couple of Character 2’s going. First of all, two Character 2’s will never find a resolution. Somebody has got to step out of their Character 2 to find some resolution and peace. There’s an energy. You can walk in and your Character 4 can pick up, “I walked into the middle of a fight. BRAIN Huddle, what do I do with this situation?” Do I come in as a Character 1 and try to fix it? Do I come in as a Character 2, win that and keep it going? Do I come in with a playful Character 3 and try to bring a little inappropriate humor, which may or may not work? Do I open up to, “When you’re ready, I’m going to play? Here I am.” Do I come in as that loving Character 4 and say, “I got you. I understand. I’m here. I’m with you. I’m wrapped around you. Whatever you need and when you’re ready to step into something else, we’re available.” We being my Character 4. This is personal power. We have the power to choose moment by moment who and how we want to be in the world. That’s how I ended that TED Talk. As you asked earlier, “What was the attraction of that TED Talk?” It was self-empowerment. We have the power to choose moment by moment who and how we want to be. I have had over 300,000 people write to me and say, “You had to have a stroke to figure that out. How do we do it with our brain?” My answer is the book, Whole Brain Living. That’s a ton of information. In the book, it’s in great detail and you walk us through it. I would highly recommend every person to get it whether you’re in therapy, a therapist or a lifelong learner that wants to keep up with the stuff. This is new, different and exciting. The coolest thing is we can nerd out on the cool stuff that we’re learning about the hippocampus, the amygdala and stuff like that. It’s both nerdy and practical. Let’s weave and own the power of what we are as human beings and evolve ourselves into conscious humanity so that we can feel like we’re healthy. I consider this book to be a roadmap to our peace of mind. Anybody who’s got a brain, biologically speaking, we have these four modules of cells. They exhibit very specific skillsets. If you have a lesion, have a stroke or wipe them out, it becomes very predictable. We’re pretty much wired similarly. Getting to know these by our character profiles makes so much sense. It’s easy to see in ourselves and identify in our partners, children, parents, teachers and the school system. We’re all on a hero’s journey. We’re born here. In that whole hero’s journey, the ultimate goal is to step out of the consciousness of the Character 1 left-brain thinking, which is of the rational world and relax enough to calm the little Character 2 so we can step into the true journey of learning, growth and ultimately connecting with our greatest part, which is Character 4. Consciousness is always available. That’s where our piece is and that piece is the ultimate goal of all the hero’s journeys. We have all of it. Let’s weave and own the power of what we are as human beings and evolve ourselves into conscious humanity so that we can feel like we’re healthy. This is about mental health and mental wellness. As you were talking, I could feel myself get a little emotional. That’s how much it’s touching my heart. There’s such a resonance. It’s incredible. The book also has practical stuff. It has more about how to strengthen these different parts of neuroplasticity. First of all, there are several myths in there that we’re busting out. I want you to know who your Character 1 is and answer these questions. Where does it come out? How often does it come out? Who likes this part of you? Who runs from this part of you? All these details about your Character 1 gave it an identity because it has an identity. As soon as you name it and own it, you can differentiate. It’s like when you were born. Your brain didn’t know you had two legs instead of one. You couldn’t walk because you were a big ball of energy with parts flopping around. As soon as your brain figured out you had two legs that you could move independently, you gained the ability to have motility and mobility. That’s exactly what we’re doing with the brain. We’re differentiating and refining our understanding of what is this beautiful thing inside of our head. It’s just a bunch of cells. As bringing it up to the level of symbolization, you’re right. We can have meetings and stuff like that. I was having a little fantasy of you and me walking over to the Texas Legislature, giving an all-day workshop and teaching people to get to know these parts of themselves. People come in with their Character 2 and they’re angry, spewing venom, mean and all this. They’re blaming and they’re all ugly. We got so much of that going on in our society, even out in public. We have increased our ability to be the Character 2 out in society. Wouldn’t it be great if instead of feeling, “Reject. Push away. There’s a Character 2. It’s mean, ugly and attacking,” to be able to instantaneously say in our Character 4, “That person needs love. That person needs to be heard, be listened to and be regulated back into their sanity.” We have the power to do that for one another. That’s a different society. That’s an entirely different society. Even if we’re not able to do that, we can have this regulation to navigate, go back to the brain and be able to navigate that. Whole Brain Living: We’re differentiating and refining our understanding of these smart beautiful cells in our head. Begin with the self or individual. For me, the goal is to help other people who are in pain because when we come out screaming, we’re just screaming. There’s no language and maturation there. There’s desperation and deregulation. We need to be able to wrap ourselves around people’s pain. Your pain does not scare me. The day I can walk up to you and say, “Your pain does not scare me. Please, when I’m in my pain, don’t let my pain scare you. Surround me with love and we will get to the point where we can communicate and find true negotiation.” I’m wondering what’s next for you.  Absolutely. I’m more of a Character 4 that is going to wait and see what happens. What has happened is all of these people who are running not-for-profit and foundation organizations, doing yoga in prisons, AA rehabilitation and cancer with children or teaching Daoism and Whole Brain Living in China? They are coming to me and saying, “This is what I’m doing. How do I bring Whole Brain Living into my network?” I say to them, “What do you need from me? How do I support you?” We’re building this enormous neural network and I’m inviting everybody to the table for play. One of the other things that are magnificent is I’m working with a woman who is creating a research project. She’s almost done with the proposal to the IRB to run a Whole Brain Living program in a school system. That is for the teachers, parents, children, principals and all the administration. She’s doing some data collection to show that we can change the conscious culture of a school system. If we can do one, we can do it everywhere. One of the things that the show could contribute is we have people all over the world. Some are practitioners and some are natural healers without letters behind their names, which we welcome with an open heart and learn from. We’ll have some Character 1 academics and some Character 4 wizards. I want them all. Another thing that you’re saying that’s also a little different is it’s not that we’re aiming to stay in our Character 4. It’s not that Character 1 is better. It is more of harmony. It’s all four. We have all four. As humanity, what we’re doing is a stage of neuroanatomical evolution. We have this new thinking tissue on top of this old limbic stuff. The old limbic stuff is alarm alert in both hemispheres. We have this thinking tissue placed on top of that as humans, the neocortex. We’re working the kinks out between the fibers of how we interact Character 1 with Character 2 in the left brain, Character 4 and Character 3 in the right brain, Character 1 and Character 4 through the corpus callosum, as well as Character 2 and Character 3 through the other commissures. We are uniting our brains. The evolution of humanity is combining all these parts of the brain. We are uniting our brains. The evolution of humanity is combining all these parts of the brain. I don’t want just one. As a Character 4, I can tell you it’s blissful, euphoric and fantastic but it is 100% ineffective and paralyzed. It can do nothing because there’s no perception of self in relationship to the external world. I was completely ineffective as a Character 4. I am totally incompetent as a Character 1. I know my growth edge as a Character 2. I know when to push away and when to evaluate so I can head toward. With my playful Character 3, who doesn’t want to play with Pigpen? Is there any organizing principle that’s happening that is not just little OU? I can imagine you being flooded. You said there were 300,000 contacts. Bring it. We’re at that stage where the book has been out since May 11th of 2021. People are reading it and they’re reading it 3 or 4 times. People are going to read this multiple times for sure. The material is amazing because it’s about not me. It’s about you, me and us. Whoever you are, come. I’m creating a team to catch the balls. Everybody is starting to throw balls at me. I don’t know what the balls are. I know what some of the balls are but we’re navigating it as we go. DrJill@DrJillTaylor.com is my email. Bring it. How do I support you in what you’re doing to bring this material to the world? We all have this beautiful brain and the faster we can communicate like this. I don’t take it personally when you say something to me. It’s like, “That was your little Character 2 who spit some venom at me. I love you despite yourself. Are you hungry? Are you tired? What do you need?” I’m all about it. Here’s another thing people could do right away. You’ve got the TED Talk that’s amazing. The first one was My Stroke of Insight and the one we have been talking mostly about is Whole Brain Living. You can find that anywhere. DrJillTaylor.com is my website. I have given over 100 podcasts. I’m planting seeds. What happens? It will grow organically. I’m here to catch as much of the balls as I can and I need to know what people need. Someone said, “I need one page for a leadership conference. I’m adding this Character 2 at the last minute. I need one sheet with the Four Characters at the top. What’s going on in the BRAIN Huddle that I can include?” Let me know what people know. We will be posting things on the website that you need that you can use. I’m saying go to these beautiful brains. We want to help ourselves and others. This is a beautiful tool. I’m resonating so much. I have a niece that was 24 years old when this happened. She had just graduated with her Aerospace Engineering degree. It’s not what you think of when you think of a stroke victim or a doctor. She got hit with a stroke. It was super weird that it was at age 24. It’s the same thing. This is a passionate space of losing part of your mind and bringing it back. Honestly, psychedelics is another thing. That’s another subject but that that is some of why the results are so positive and strong. The psychedelics are essentially quieting that left-brain attachment of me to self and me to the external and allowing me to have this magnificent experience of, “Without the circuitry, I am as big as the universe.” At the core of the universe is this intense feeling of love. When you come back from that, you’re going, “This left brain is a tool. It’s not who I am.” I want to live my life through the value structure of the collective whole because we got to fix that, connect with one another and heal this planet because without the planet, we don’t have a life. Us healing one another is our mental health. We do have the power to grow up to be healthy humanity. Honestly, even about climate, part of what happens with climate and the planet is that we either get overwhelmed that it’s too scary or we dissociate and can’t think of it. I love what you said earlier about, “I’m not afraid of your pain.” Part of what happened was you were freed of the fear of your pain. You were freed of it. If we could do something and create ripples of helping people not be afraid and be able to be regulated so that we can deal with the hard stuff like climate, it’s very exciting. Consider that in each of those four consciousnesses, the consciousness of Character 4 is the one that’s always there. It’s the consciousness in ourselves. If we want to heal ourselves, we need to get to that vibration and energy. I freaked out a bunch of people’s left brains because, “She’s doing woo-woo.” Woo-woo is real. There’s woo-woo we label as woo-woo. There’s woo-woo we reject because we don’t understand it. Call it something else or the circuitry of your right brain. Don’t deny the existence of those abilities simply because of a bias because little Character 2 is saying, “That doesn’t feel safe. We can’t measure it. It doesn’t work. Those people are weird. They’re different from me.” That’s just Character 2. Character 1 comes in and tells the stories, “It’s all woo-woo. It’s not real.” It’s the anatomy of your brain. We have all of these capacities. Don’t deny yourself the righteous ability to be a whole human being. Give yourself that gift in your lifetime. Why wouldn’t we want to do that? Speaking of gifts. I’m so excited. My brain is popping. I can see all kinds of fun things. This is Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor and the book, in particular, is Whole Brain Living. We highly recommend it. If it moves you, we have a reading group. Certainly, contact us. We have a Supercast community and you can find it at TherapistUncensored.Supercast.com. It’s as low as $5 a month. You can have access to each other to do discussions and stuff like that. There’s always an ability to pay. I’m happy to work with you around that. That’s fine. We want it to be accessible and help you organize some of this stuff. Also, Sue, I gave a one-hour webinar over three days. It was all the material. I was talking about the BRAIN Huddle because people have obstacles and it’s like, “Let’s get around those.” I do have a Facebook page but my team is posting all of these podcasts. We can do Whole Brain Living and mom rage, Whole Brain Living and sleep problems, Whole Brain Living and Buddhism and Whole Brain Living and all these different subjects. The beauty of the Whole Brain Living is it’s all in there. It’s applicable to every single subject there is for us as humanity. The thing about it is it’s very easy and quick to understand. What is hard is the application of it and what kind of support people need to do the Huddle. To me, that’s where the juice is. How does this translate? The BRAIN Huddle is the power. There’s nothing like being able to sit back and say, “All that angst and hostility you’re feeling, I’m sympathetic to you and I don’t have to feel that.” Empathy doesn’t mean I have to go bleed and sit in your blood. It means I can hold the space while you bleed and love you back to health. Thank you for your generosity and we will stay in touch — Important Links: DrJillTaylor.com Whole Brain Living: The Anatomy of Choice and the Four Characters That Drive Our Life by Jill Bolte Taylor My stroke of insight – TED Talk My Stroke of Insight: A Brain Scientist’s Personal Journey by Jill Bolte Taylor www.TherapistUncensored.com/join The Master and His Emissary: The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World by Iain McGilchrist The Polyvagal Theory: Neurophysiological Foundations of Emotions, Attachment, Communication and Self-regulation by Stephen Porges BRAIN Huddle Andrew Newberg DrJill@DrJillTaylor.com TherapistUncensored.Supercast.com Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor – Facebook page https://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/26/health/26iht-25brain.13207332.html About Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor As a Harvard-trained neuroscientist, Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor has dedicated her life to understanding an d sharing her knowledge on the power of neuroplasticity and how we can use it as a tool to heal our traumas and live a happier, more fulfilling life. After experiencing a severe hemorrhage at the age of 37, Dr. Bolte Taylor has a first-hand account of her recovery and findings through the difficult journey. From her famous TedTalk debut  “My Stroke of Insight” to her memoir, she has inspired and educated millions through her public speaking and dedication to her field. Not only did her memoir earn a spot on the New York Times nonfiction bestseller list, but she continued on to release “Whole Brain Living: The Anatomy of Choice and the Four Characters that Drive Our Life” in May of 2021. This book combines psychology with neuroanatomy to share the four distinct modules and how we can use those cells to tap in and create an inner team to help guide us on the journey to a more peaceful life. For a deeper dive into this episode and Bolte-Taylor’s work with Whole Brain Living, join our online community for as little as $5 a month and get extra content, ad-free feed, Ask Me Anything sessions and – in Jan 2022 we will meet live together to discuss this book specifically. JOIN HERE

Join our online community here! Breaking down the nitty-gritty of attachment and assessment! There were so many exciting moments in the previous interview with Carol George that we couldn’t help but sit down and get into with you.  We use excerpts from Episode 162, TU162: Adult Attachment Projective (AAP) Assessment & Clinical Use with Dr. Carol George and geek out as we work to continue to learn and incorporate the feedback from this legend in the field of attachment. We also worked to make this sometimes technical material more accessible to everybody, however, we’d still call this episode dense.  Yeah, well, good content should not be over-simplified, you are welcome! If you have not had the chance to listen to the previous episode with world-renowned Attachment Assessment pioneer, Dr. Carol George – that’s ok, we cover a lot in this one but you will definitely get the most out of it as a follow up to hearing the original first. Be easy on yourself though, there is no right or wrong way to learn! We are still excited by the exceptional opportunity to learn directly from Dr. George, and for the privilege, we have in getting to sit down with so many incredible experts in the field of Attachment. We thought there was no better way to follow up than to bring you an in-depth session with Ann and Sue to really get into the heart of attachment assessment. Follow along as they explore what attachment really means, how research has evolved, and how it is relevant on a clinical level. Guided by excerpts from the conversation with Dr. George, they share personal stories, and their own knowledge of the topic to give you 40 minutes of insightful, candid conversation to expand your knowledge even greater. You won’t want to miss it! https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/using-the-adult-attachment-projective-aap-assessment-with-carol-george/ You may also enjoy another legend in the direct science and research related to attachment, Dr. Alan Sroufe – https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/attachment-through-the-lifespan-alan-sroufe/ Attachment Assessment Resources Galore!! AAP Flyer – pdf click here to find out more about training on the AAP Clinical Application of the Adult Attachment Projective  Adult Attachment Projective PDG article by George & West Assessing Secure Base Behavior and Attachment Security Using the Q-Sort Method The Adult Attachment Projective Picture System: Attachment Theory and Assessment in Adults Use of the Adult Attachment Projective Picture System (AAP) in the Middle of a Long-Term Psychotherapy Dr. Steve Finn TU162: Adult Attachment Projective (AAP) Assessment & Clinical Use with Dr. Carol George Become a neuronerd! Want to dive deeper?  Join our private community and get ad-free content, extra episodes and early access to study opportunities.  Join now to get 10% off, so go ahead, it’s as little as $5 a month and takes just a couple clicks and you are in!   Check out our socials: Youtube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter & LinkedIn!

Depth session!  Learn about the clinical application of the attachment assessment research and the Adult Attachment Interview (AAI) and the Adult Attachment Projective Join us here (AAP) with attachment pioneer, Dr. Carol George. Co-host Sue Marriott sat down with Dr. Carol George to cover a wide variety of topics, from an in-depth analysis on the misconceptions about Strange Situation and what is truly being measured, to the difference between adult attachment research in comparison to developmental attachment research. Dr. George’s impressive years of investigation and personal experiences through her own journey as a parent makes for a fascinating discussion about the truths behind understanding the attachment spectrum. There is a ton of history of how what we know as the attachment spectrum today came to be, and there is no better way to understand this journey than to hear first-hand from one of the pioneers of research. Learn more about why there has been a shift from what we’ve known as “disorganized attachment” and why professionals are adopting the term “dysregulated attachment” to better encompass the experience. Dr. Carol George Who is Carol George?  A literal pioneer in the field of attachment assessment  Carol George, Ph.D., is Professor Emerita of Psychology at Mills College in Oakland, California, and has been a pioneer in developing attachment assessments for children and adults. George is an internationally renowned attachment expert who was a co-director of the Mills College Infant Mental Health program for 21 years. Working alongside Dr. Main and Dr. Kaplan, her dissertation helped develop the Adult Attachment Interview. She is praised for her work as an author and editor, and is known for her contributions to attachment-based representative assessments like the Caregiving Interview, the Attachment Doll Play Projective Assessment, and “Disorganized Attachment and Caregiving,” alongside Judith Soloman. Her other contributions include “The Adult Attachment Projective Picture System” with Malcolm West. Although retired from being a professor, George is still incredibly active and stays busy being an assistant editor on the editorial board of Attachment and Human Development, as well as Director of the AAP Training Consortium. Her dedication to education is still prevalent as she often hosts extensive clinical consultations to practicing therapists, graduate students, and other students of attachment. Card examples from the Adult Attachment Projective Resources: AAP Flyer – pdf click here to find out more about training on the AAP Clinical Application of the Adult Attachment Projective PDF article by George & West Adult Attachment Projective the book by Dr. Carol George Assessing Secure Base Behavior and Attachment Security Using the Q-Sort Method The Adult Attachment Projective Picture System: Attachment Theory and Assessment in Adults Use of the Adult Attachment Projective Picture System (AAP) in the Middle of a Long-Term Psychotherapy Dr. Steve Finn Like what you’re hearing? Stop and subscribe to the podcast wherever you are listening, and while you are at it, drop us a rating and review – this is the best way to help others discover this incredible content. Looking for more?   Join our new online community of like-minded Neuronerds here!  Other episodes you’ll enjoy: https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/attachment-through-the-lifespan-alan-sroufe     Our socials: Youtube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter & LinkedIn!

Season 6 Premiere!  Move from defense and fear It’s been a ride, but hosts Sue Marriott and Ann Kelley are back in full force and ready for this exciting season. In this episode, we catch up with you and discuss the depths of the defensive process and how to resource ourselves to put down the walls we don’t even mean to put up.  Cis-women are socialized to subsume themselves to others’ needs and Ann and Sue are no exception.  They are working on holding their own voice and letting their little light shine freely. Watch this 3 min clip to see what we mean and to get into the spirit yourself! 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Acfc2gUErI Content-wise, they discuss the difference between cognitive understanding of modern attachment and regulation, and the bottom-up experience of it. We distort information coming in – either by not registering interpersonal information (dismissing/blue side of the spectrum) or by over-interpreting the importance of an exchange (up-regulating with fear). This is an unconscious process that to undo we have to have the courage and the resources to feel the feelings that cause us to defend. They walk through it with you – they don’t just tell you what to do – so join us in understanding our own defensive process. Check out our recent replays for a refresher on each of the attachment styles: TU158 TU159 TU160 Like what you’re hearing? A great way to help others find these resources is to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. This is an easy and effective way for those seeking assistance to be able to find it.  Premium Feed Subscription – here!

For the third and final episode of our very popular attachment series, we bring you this last replay before we kick off our 6th season. In this episode, Ann and Sue cover the 4th category of what we call the basic attachment spectrum: disorganized attachment. Learn how to bring yourself back to an organized state and focus on forming secure, deeper connections in relationships. Dropping into overwhelm and disorganization happens to everyone at times, and some more than others. When we have been exposed to serious danger, unresolved fright or major loss in such a way that it interferes with healthy coping patterns, we are left to our own to manage the world. In research terms they call this disorganized or unresolved, but we’d like to describe it as squirting squid ink to confuse who we think is the predator and making a run for it. Dropping into overwhelm and disorganization happens to everyone at times, and some more than others. When we have been exposed to serious danger, unresolved fright or major loss in such a way that it interferes with healthy coping patterns, we are left to our own to manage the world. In research terms they call this disorganized or unresolved, but we’d like to describe it as squirting squid ink to confuse who we think is the predator and making a run for it. Check out our original show notes for this episode, here! And follow us on our social media pages to get the latest updates and information: Youtube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter & LinkedIn! Like what you’re hearing? A great way to help others find these resources is to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. This is an easy and effective way for those seeking assistance to be able to find it. Thank you so much for your support.

Our new season starts Nov 2, 2021!  In the meantime, It is our pleasure to share one of our most popular in our basic attachment series.  This is the second of three – 159, 160, 161.  Whether it’s new to you or not we hope you enjoy this content and share it with somebody who should hear it or re-listen and reflect. We will be back soon and have been working hard contemplating next steps.  Look for us live again early November, we have a great season coming up and more chances for our listeners to interact.  Season 6 will pick up where these leave off, and we cannot wait to share more with you. Improve your sense of security and communicate more effectively inside yourself, and with those you love by understand preoccupied/anxious attachment.  Begin to learn to manage your body’s reactivity in relationships by learning about preoccupied/anxious attachment and how it relates to unconscious regulation of the brain. Dr. Ann Kelley and Sue Marriott LCSW, CGP discuss the Insecure Preoccupied, or Anxious/Ambivalent side of the attachment spectrum. This discussion can stand alone, but it also continues as a soft Part 2 from last episode TU59: Are You Cool or Just Cut Off – Dismissing Attachment. The hosts begin to really go into how to use the attachment spectrum to identify where you might fall and how to move towards a more secure place. Find out how anxious attachment is formed and passed on, as well as how starting anxious affects relationships later in our adult life. You’ll learn how to manage relationships better by turning inwards and regulating yourself rather than focusing on others to calm you down. Therapist Uncensored co-hosts Kelley and Marriott will also provide basic tips towards identifying where you are on the attachment spectrum and how to move from anxious attachment towards security.   To see the original show notes for this episode, click here.  Like what you’re hearing? A great way to help others find these resources is to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. This is an easy and effective way for those seeking assistance to be able to find it. Thank you so much for your support. Tweet

Dismissing/Avoidant Styles of Relating in Adulthood – REPLAY After 5 seasons and over 2 1/2 million downloads, Ann and Sue are realizing they need to bump the podcast UP from hobby status. We will be back soon and will have some news when we do, so look for us on November 2, 2021 for the Season 6 launch.  However, in the meantime, we thought we’d keep cycling through some oldies but goodies. The next 3 are extremely popular episodes and Season 6 will pick up where these leave off. ___ It is our pleasure to share one of our most popular in our basic attachment series.  This is the first of three – 159, 160, 161.  Take a listen, or re-listen and reflect, or share with somebody you know needs to listen. We will be back soon and have been working hard contemplating next steps.  Look for us live again early November, we have a great season coming up and more chances for our listeners to interact.  Season 6 will pick up where these leave off, and we cannot wait to share more with you. Sometimes you feel secure but really have just learned to cut off from important life-giving emotions. This episode is especially for those “talk to the hand” kind of people or those that love them. You know, the uber-independent, rational, left-brain, excel spreadsheet person that sees others emotions as needy and weak. Co-hosts Sue Marriott LCSW, CGP and Ann Kelley PhD translate decades of research and clinical experience into easy to understand usable points to help you improve your understanding of why people appear so irrational at times. They talk about how internal working models of the world are formed outside of our awareness in our early life and how they get passed forward over time, sometimes causing relationship trouble. Early stress responses and relationships create a pathway, and how we talk not what we say are clues to which pathway we may be on. This episode specifically focuses on the blue side of the spectrum, which you may be familiar from research as Dismissive or Avoidant. To see the original show notes for this episode, click here.  Coming soon – Premium content right moving from patreon to supercast: http://www.therapistuncensored.supercast.com Tweet

We are very excited to resurface this episode this week as it is one of our most popular, and it is rich with great content. Follow along as Sue takes a deep dive with Dr. Daniel Brown into complex traumas, the myths behind false memories, and the 3 essential ingredients of effective treatment for many clinical issues. Dr. Brown has been an expert witness in over 200 child sexual abuse cases, and is also known for his work at the International War Crimes Tribunal for his role in developing a standard of evidence for victims of war atrocities. Learn more about how treatment from an attachment perspective can lead to significant and long-term healing. Daniel Brown, Ph.D. is Associate Clinical Professor of Psychology at Harvard Medical School and has served on the faculty for over 38 years. As a senior meditation master, he’s trained and taught with top Indo-Tibetan Bon & Buddhist lamas for over 48 years, including lineage holders of some of the great schools of Buddhism. He is an author of 24 books, and winner of the several awards from the American Psychiatric Association and the American Academy of Psychiatry & Law for outstanding contribution to forensic psychiatry. As a legal expert witness, Dr Brown has testified in over 200 child abuse cases and served as an expert witness for the prosecutors at the International War Crimes Tribunal helping them establish a standard of evidence for victims of war atrocities. Dr. Brown co-developed The Attachment Project based on the foundations of his and Dr. Elliott’s award-winning book Attachment Disturbances in Adults: Treatment for Comprehensive Repair. Together they developed the Three Pillars treatment method that has garnered praise across the scientific and medical community, and he is a recipient of the 2018 Pierre Janet Writing Award. Check out our original show notes for this episode, here! And follow us on our social media pages to get the latest updates and information: Youtube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter & LinkedIn! Like what you’re hearing? A great way to help others find these resources is to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. This is an easy and effective way for those seeking assistance to be able to find it. Thank you so much for your support.

For todays’ replay, we thought it would be a great opportunity to revisit our conversation with renowned psychoanalyst and psychologist, Nancy McWilliams. It can be difficult to verbalize the issues with “evidence-based” models of care, but with McWilliam’s deeper analysis of quality depth-oriented therapies like psychoanalytically-informed and attachment-oriented therapy, she integrates the neurobiological aspect that Freud began, which has now been confirmed. Enjoy! Nancy McWilliams, PhD, ABPP, is Visiting Professor in the Graduate School of Applied and Professional Psychology at Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey, and has a private practice in Flemington, New Jersey. She is on the editorial board of Psychoanalytic Psychology and has authored three classic books on psychotherapy, including the award-winning Psychoanalytic Diagnosis, Second Edition: Understanding Personality Structure in the Clinical Process. Dr. McWilliams is an Honorary Member of the American Psychoanalytic Association and a former Erikson Scholar at the Austen Riggs Center in Stockbridge, Massachusetts. She is a recipient of the Leadership and Scholarship Awards from Division 39 (Psychoanalysis) of the American Psychological Association (APA) and the Hans H. Strupp Award from the Appalachian Psychoanalytic Society, and delivered the Dr. Rosalee G. Weiss Lecture for Outstanding Leaders in Psychology for APA Division 42 (Psychologists in Independent Practice). She has demonstrated psychodynamic psychotherapy in three APA educational videos and has spoken at the commencement ceremonies of the Yale University School of Medicine and the Smith College School for Social Work.   Check out our original show notes for this episode, here! And follow us on our social media pages to get the latest updates and information: Youtube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter & LinkedIn! Like what you’re hearing? A great way to help others find these resources is to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. This is an easy and effective way for those seeking assistance to be able to find it. Thank you so much for your support.

What makes the ins and outs of sexuality so hard to talk about? We’re diving into it in this replay episode, so get ready. We’re talking about all things sex and overcoming the fears of communicating about it. It turns out if couples do talk about sex, the conversation often only covers the frequency, instead of the other important aspects like pleasure (or the lack thereof), fantasies (or the lack thereof), desires (or the lack thereof),thoughts and feelings towards intimacy, and even the basic mechanics as well. Learn more about how to have these understandably anxiety-inducing conversations, and overcome the difficulties of opening up to yourself and your sexual partner with Dr. Ann Kelley, and Dr. Susan Ansorage. Dr. Susan Ansorge is a practicing psychologist in Austin, TX. Her interest, training and experience in working with sexual issues began during her tenure as a staff psychologist at the UT Counseling and Mental Health Center, and has continued through her 17 years of private practice with individuals and couples. Dr. Ansorge was also member of the Austin Women’s Psychotherapy Project, bringing leaders in the field of gender-aware Psychotherapy to the Austin area, as well as presenting locally and nationally on topics in the areas of gender and sexuality as they relate to psychotherapy. Her written work has appeared in the National Center for PTSD Quarterly. Check out our original show notes for this episode, here! And follow us on our social media pages to get the latest updates and information: Youtube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter & LinkedIn! Like what you’re hearing? A great way to help others find these resources is to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. This is an easy and effective way for those seeking assistance to be able to find it. Thank you so much for your support.

Shame – a feeling we are all fortunately and unfortunately – familiar with. In this replay episode, Dr. Ann Kelley and Sue Marriott sit down with Dr. Stephen Finn and take a deeper dive into the scientific research and biology of this emotion to better understand how such a tough feeling can be both toxic and healthy in life. Check out our original show notes for this episode, here! And follow us on our social media pages to get the latest updates and information: Youtube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter & LinkedIn! Like what you’re hearing? A great way to help others find these resources is to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. This is an easy and effective way for those seeking assistance to be able to find it. Thank you so much for your support.

With everything going on in the world, we thought there was no better time than now to share this replay episode on what can be considered a tough topic. A sad truth is that most of us have not experienced examples of healthy boundary setting, and we have to spend parts of our adult lives learning how to improve this skill. Like any muscle, strong boundary-setting skills are developed instead of innate. If this idea resonates with you – you are going to love this episode featuring the founder of IPNB Psychotherapy of Austin, Dr. Juliane Taylor Shore. Buckle up for a thorough discussion on interpersonal neurobiology and how it relates to boundaries. Enjoy! Check out our original show notes for this episode, here! And follow us on our social media pages to get the latest updates and information: Youtube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter & LinkedIn! Like what you’re hearing? A great way to help others find these resources is to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. This is an easy and effective way for those seeking assistance to be able to find it. Thank you so much for your support.

Parenthood can be a real challenge, and with the combination of the pandemic and related shutdowns, balancing daily life and an emotionally and behaviorally challenged child can be quite overwhelming, to say the least. If this feeling resonates with you, we chose this replay episode with you in mind – hoping to offer some support and guidance through these tougher times. In this replay, we will cover areas where many parents go wrong, and what can be done instead by shifting our strategies and improving our households. Learn more about the Nurtured Heart Approach with Dr. Ann Kelley and expert guest, Dr. Elizabeth Sylvester. Check out our original show notes for this episode, here! And follow us on our social media pages to get the latest updates and information: Youtube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter & LinkedIn! Like what you’re hearing? A great way to help others find these resources is to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. This is an easy and effective way for those seeking assistance to be able to find it. Thank you so much for your support.

As we continue this grueling journey through this seemingly never-ending pandemic – it is no surprise when parents share feelings of being overwhelmed, frustrated, and just simply exhausted. Have no fear, we are bringing you this replay episode just in time to offer you some extra support as we all navigate these challenges. We had the privilege of speaking with the father of interpersonal neurobiology, Dan Siegel, and his colleague and our friend, Tina Payne-Bryson. Check out this throwback episode from 2020 – the content is still rich with information and relevance today. Enjoy! Check out our original show notes for this episode, here! And follow us on our social media pages to get the latest updates and information: Youtube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter & LinkedIn! Like what you’re hearing? A great way to help others find these resources is to rate and review wherever you get your podcasts. This is an easy and effective way for those seeking assistance to be able to find it. Thank you so much for your support.

Ann and Sue’s reflections on the past 5 seasons with the theme of Growing Security In today’s episode, Sue Marriott and Ann Kelley conclude their fifth season, and it’s all because of our listeners and audience that we’ve been able to maintain our Apple Top 10 Social Science (independently produced!) podcast.  We’ve had many brilliant people on for interviews, and today we’re going to talk about some of the highlights of these episodes since it’s unlikely that you may have heard all 150 episodes. We’re doing this podcast because we’re excited about it, we’re passionate about it, and we are creating this content for ANYONE to help you grow security in your life. It’s a GLBTQI+ inclusive, female-led, independently produced show that will always be FREE to everyone (not on paid platforms), and we will try our best to remain AD-FREE thanks to our patrons.  The general theme is all about deepening security in yourself and your close relationships. Use the search button on our website to find topics you enjoy. We are working to lift under-represented voices so if you have a recommendation for a guest we may not know about, send us a note. We continue to value sharing the privilege of the mic.  As July is BIPOC Mental Health month (see below for resources and detail), we highlight several episodes on Hip Hop, community-based treatment and the story of resilience shared by Alphaso Appleton from Liberia. Looking Back on 150 Episodes to help you grow security in your relationships: TU133: Holding Your Own 1: Messy but Secure Relating On the Holding Your Own series, most frequent comment was an appreciation of basic humility in discussing mental health. Many of you think it’s refreshing that the podcast is about content not about personalities. TU 149: Modern Attachment Regulation Spectrum – An Integrated Model of Change TU130 – The Deep Biology of Love – Oxytocin Unpacked, with Research Pioneer Dr. Sue Carter The fact that Dr. Sue Carter launched the study of oxytocin makes ME happier! TU93: Polyvagal Theory in Action – The Practice of Body Regulation With Dr. Stephen Porges TU110: Story Follows State – Investigating Polyvagal Theory with Guest Deb Dana TU117: Resilience Trauma and the Brain W/ Guest Bruce Perry MD, PhD TU106: What Actually Heals in Therapy with Psychoanalyst Nancy McWilliams The difficult person we struggle with may be evoking the parts of ourselves that we hate.  It could be a disowned part that we have shame about, and we’re seeing a mirror. TU141: How We Become the Person’s We Are with Dr. Alan Sroufe, Attachment Through the Lifespan TU56: How We Come to Define Ourselves – Attachment Research Over Decades with Guest Alan Sroufe He talked about getting to know who we are, and our own authentic self. He’s a preminent attachment researcher in the field. TU89: Neurofluency – with Dr. Lou Cozolino, Applied Neuroscience Made Understandable One of the things Lou said that stuck with me was “You have to get in touch with your own flexibility, and tolerate the anxiety of your own ignorance.” TU145: Class, Race, Culture and Attachment, Re-examined It’s about being a good learner TU51: Conquer Shame by Understanding the Science Behind the Feeling, with Guest Expert Dr. Steve Finn TU81: How Good Boundaries Actually Bring Us Closer, with Guest Juliane Taylor Shore She talks about the Jello Wall, between you and something else to help think.. is this about me? TU63: Living with Cancer – The Six Principles of Emotional Healing with Guest Kelly Inselmann TU64: Mindfulness Meditation with Yoga Therapist Kelly Inselmann, Bonus Episode TU42: Sexual Vitality, Refreshing our Understanding of Sexual Health with Doug-Braun Harvey (Part 1 of 2) TU43: Sexual Vitality – Six Principles of Sexual Health with Doug Braun-Harvey (Part 2 of 2) Reframing “losing your virginity” to acknowledging your “sexual awakening”. TU69: Exploring Intersecting Genders – What We Can All Learn with Guest Li Brookens We are proud to be LGBTQ+ welcoming in all of our content.  The intersecting gender episode w Li Brookens was really impactful (we wonder if it remains fresh and up to date re: language though since it’s a few years old). TU139: Boys and Sex, Modern Young Men and Sexuality with Peggy Orenstein TU128 – Helping the Intense Child: The Nurtured Heart Approach TU38: The Blended Family – How to Create Strong and Lasting Step-Family Relationships This is a resoruce for anyone dealing with blended families to avoid high conflict through stress. Each position deserves a ton of compassion – the biological parent, the step-parent and the child. TU23: Building Grit Through Self Compassion with Dr. Kristin Neff TU125: Dan Siegel and Tina Payne-Bryson on Presence in Times of Stress TU27: Raising Secure Children With Guest Tina Payne Bryson TU62: The Luv Doc – Dating and Relationship Advice from the Trenches with Dan Hardick One of the pieces of advice that was powerful on ideal love was to look at your list of who you want. Could YOU live up to that list? Look at your own date-ablility, add some humility and hope and work from there. TU120: Finding Security and Healing Attachment with Dr. David Elliott TU34: Treating Attachment Difficulties with Dr. David Elliott We have forged a wonderful friendship and writing relationship with David Elliott. Highly recommend 34 and 120, in 120 he demonstrates the Ideal Parent Figure Protocol. TU 87: Treating Complex Trauma and Attachment with Guest Dr. Daniel Brown TU03: Different Sex Drives – Are We Screwed? One of the big hints for this one is that when you have two people with different drives, acknowledge the loss to the other person. Example, “I know you would rather be having more adventurous sex and that part so far hasn’t working out for us. It must be hard for you, and it means a lot to me that you are setting those desires aside while I work out what I am comfortable with.”  Dose those acknowledgements generously and it’ll save you a few years in therapy. TU85: Attachment in the Classroom with Guest Linno Rhodes TU119: For the Love of Men, Rethinking Masculinity with Liz Plank It’s important to talk to men about overturing the patriarchy. It’s not a gender war, it is a war between those who are wedded to a power-over heirachal system and those who are fighting for mutuality, raising voices of the under-represented and having freedom in individual expression. TU12: If It’s Not Good For You; It’s Not Good for Us – Interview With Relationship Expert Stan Tatkin TU121: Redefining the Purpose of Relationships During Quarantine with Stan Tatkin TU07: What is Group Therapy and 5 Reasons You Should Try It Group Therapy is one of the most powerful things you can do. TU22: Love Letter To Group Psychotherapy TU17: The Biology of Motivation and Habits – Why We Drop the Ball We’re not weak, humans just don’t really have a lot of willpower. It comes down to the fact that if you entertain eating the marshmellow, if you hold an internal  debate about it, you will likely give in. It’s about fatigue. TU91: Curiosity – One of the Most Powerful Tools For Connection TU124 – Hip Hop as Therapy: Beat Making, Lyrics & Community Empowerment I was super anxious to offend, but it was deeply important and I loved it because I grew so much. TU127 Grandma Heals: Community-Based Mental Health Care from Zimbabwe with Dr. Ruth Verhey It was a great way to highlight community based care that is highly effective treatment. You can find a whole category with Narcissism. Discussing Race, Class & Privilege Episodes: 20, 109,123, 124, 127 & 145.   Next Season Highlights: We’re exploring a series called “Therapy Vitamins” ie. super short snippets with no fluff at all to give you healthy little secure relating snacks, nutrients for you, your life, your relationships. We’re excited for our upcoming episode with Carol George, originator of several attachment instruments including the Adult Attachment Projective. You will LOVE this discussion on adult attachment, so stay tuned. Over the break, we are focusing on our online community group of Patreon neuronerds and finishing this dang book we are working on! However we will continue to publish some must-not-miss or worth-hearing-again episodes as replays! Don’t forget to join our Facebook Group, if you’d like to continue this conversation with other people! As a reminder, July is Bebe Moore Campbell National Minority Mental Health Awareness Month, also known as BIPOC Mental Health Month. Formally recognized in June 2008 (and still currently recognized today), Bebe Moore Campbell National Minority Mental Health Awareness Month was created to bring awareness to the unique struggles that underrepresented groups face with regard to mental illness in the U.S.  Bebe Moore Campbell was an American author, journalist, teacher, and mental health advocate who worked tirelessly to shed light on the mental health needs of the Black community and other underrepresented communities.  To continue the visionary work of Bebe Moore Campbell, each year Mental Health America (MHA) develops a public education campaign dedicated to addressing the mental health needs of Black, Indigenous, and People of Color (BIPOC). Resources for BIPOC Mental Health Month: https://mhanational.org/sites/default/files/BIPOC-MHM-Toolkit-2021_Final_03_0.pdf https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/06/a-reading-list-on-issues-of-race/ https://www.magellanhealthcare.com/documents/2021/06/mental-health-resources-for-bipoc-and-lgbtq-communities.pdf/   You are invited to join our private online community through Patreon. It offers extra content and access, including reading groups…  Super cool – it also helps us keep the podcast running ad-free! We’d love to meet you there. Enjoy this episode? Please share, or rate/review – a powerful way to help us expand our reach. Tweet this!

Attachment today In today’s episode, Sue Marriott and Ann Kelley provide an overview of the Modern Attachment – Regulation Spectrum – a model developed to integrate the varied attachment research, relational neuroscience, and the impact of culture & context. In this episode, they discuss what they call BAMA and the 3 R’s, which will come out in more detail in a book they’ve been working on for, well, quite awhile – so they just tell you the ideas here. 🙂  They also dig into attachment theory, internal working models, and states of being versus personality structure as they relay some of what they’ve learned in the past 5 seasons. It’s a packed episode to summarize some of the 5 years this podcast has been produced.  Note: This podcast is a labor of love, and our patrons keep us free of corporate ads – thank you. We don’t sell anything except this course below on the attachment spectrum, which we created due to many requests. We aren’t here for a profit, just to keep up with production costs so if you can’t afford it, just contact us and tell us what you can pay.  We want everyone to have access that wants it. And, we need to support production of the show, so thanks for any support, shares, reviews or what we’d really love – to also join as a patron. Attachment Spectrum Course Ok, Sue and Ann developed this a while back and need to update it. However, it is power-packed course that goes into much more detail than they could on the podcast – it’s 4 hours! long. If you want to dive deeper into this topic, sign up by clicking below, and use OURCLAN as a discount promo code. For therapist, 3 CE hours are available. https://therapistuncensored.com/courses/its-not-me-its-my-amygdala/ You can’t change your unconcious internal models unless you recognize them. BAMA – Biology, Attachment, Maps, & Adult Attachment BAMA refers to the developmental unfolding of what has been called attachment.  This represents the developmental unfolding of what eventually we call adult attachment. Biology – we have a nervous nervous system that requires an older, wiser nervous system to help us feel safe. Polyvagal theory, affective co-regulation, mirror neurons and the 7 circuits of emotion are all online from birth, adjusting and responding to our environment.  Attachment- the first A refers specifically to infant attachment research. Think John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth – or pre-dating them think of Konrad Lorenz and his geese, and Hary Harlow and his monkeys with their wire mothers which demonstrated we need more than milk, or food, to survive.  We need a relationship.  The Strange Situation was an original research instrument that validated Bowbly’s ideas and recognized the categories they later termed as Insecure-Avoidant, Secure, Insecure-Preoccupied and Disorganized Attachment.  Maps are formed when patterns are established based on repeated experiences of the child’s biological drive for emotional safety.   Neural wiring forms to effectively create safety from 6 months to 3 years, and behavioral strategies develop from this basic biology to keep the caregiver close and available. The key here is “available” – some parents are fine being close but should their infant appear distressed or upset with them, they defend, avoid and reject the “needy” baby.  That, my friends, makes them emotionally unavailable, so the toddler learns quickly what to do and what not to do to keep the caregiver open and responsive.  In this case that may mean repressing expressing negative emotions, pushing away needs, and doubling down on the value of self-reliance.  This reduces the unconscious threat in the parent, thus keeping them as available as the toddler can make them. Notice though the whole drive is to create as much closeness as possible, and the internal working model, or map, helps navigate the way. These maps, also called internal working models, are the key to change.  They set us on a trajectory of development that becomes self-reinforcing – if I see the world as unsafe I behave accordingly and thus make the world less safe which confirms my original hypothesis.  Or, I see the world as just fine but myself as unlovable and undeserving, thus I look for evidence supporting this worldview and unconsciously co-create the very experience I most fear. Rejection and abandonment closely follow because while we think we are seeking closeness, our grabbing and not allowing ourselves to be soothed actually causes us to eventually be rejected, the exact thing we unconsciously predict is going to happen anyway.  Adult Attachment, Finally the last A in BAMA. This represents us, now.  We are all grown up on one hand, but we carry forward our shaped nervous system, behavioral strategies, and unconscious maps to navigate the relational world. We love, fight, bond, mate, and parent from the trajectory of the BAM in BAMA – Biology, Attachment and then Maps, or attachment representations.   You need to go through the “Oh God” to get to the realization. The 3 R’s of healing attachment  This is one of many versions of the overall path to healing and recovery.  It names stages but doesn’t identify specifically how to’s just yet.  Instead, this is the basic scaffolding that is recognized in many models including Fonagy, Elliott & Brown, Siegel, and addiction research – pre-contemplation, contemplation, and change.   Recognize – you can’t even begin to relate securely until you value current and historically emotional relating.  If the problem is just your partner, you haven’t begun the journey. Get curious, reflect – we notoriously over-index on the other being a problem and under-index on how difficult we are and how distorted and self-serving our perceptions can be.  Once we begin to recognize that our early experience may be shaping how we relate today, then we can get started.  Recognition is global – in general, do you find value in being curious and reflective about human connection?  It is also individualistic – can you get curious about how you affect others. How other’s reactions play into the next response.  How you recoil at someone crying… what’s THAT about?  Or how you have trouble noticing what she’s done for you and only mark how she’s missed you.  Once we can begin to value this exploration and begin to see that there are larger forces at play than our small left-brain conscious rational minds… only then can we proceed to incorporate the second R.  Re-examine – now that we are on to ourselves, not always trusting other’s perceptions over our own, or realizing we don’t trust anyone but ourselves, then we have hope for change. Rewire – This is not a metaphor, you can literally use your new thinking to change your experience.  You can update your mind, which changes your brain, which then changes your relational experience and perception.  What’s something that you know isn’t true, is inhereted from your history, but you can’t quite let it go? More importantly, what is true that you want to replace it with? OK, let’s get busy doing just that!   In this episode: Discussing the overall podcast, tying everything together. The Modern Attachment Regulation Spectrum Explaining the 3 Rs. Explaining BAMA Understanding how attachment has evolved. Why a continuum Internal working models The various color stages for the internal working model of attachment. (Blue, Red, Green, Yellow) Tye-Dye, a mention of unregulated stress, and why we need to organize.   Don’t forget to join our Facebook Group, if you’d like to continue this conversation with other people! Want more on modern attachment?  Not sure you need it if you heard this episode but here are other one’s like it! https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu126-modern-attachment/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu79-attachment-spectrum-and-the-nervous-system-quick-review-with-updates/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu145-class-race-culture-and-attachment-re-examined/ Pre-orders are officially available!  Get it now to join in the fun when it arrives April, 2024.       Please consider giving to Mental Health Liberation We support mental health access to those traditionally left out of mainstream healthcare and use a portion of the income we receive from corporate sponsors to do just that!  We can only do that with the help of our Patrons – joining as a TU Neuronerd Podsquad premium subscriber, you support this mission and get a dedicated ad-free feed plus occasional very cool and unique study opportunities, reading groups, and unique surprises!  We invite you to join our community. Click here to join!  Mental Health Liberation is our primary partner at this time – please consider giving whatever you can to support mental health access for those traditionally left behind and support training for BIPOC therapists.

On this podcast we’ve covered a ton about attachment and relational neuroscience, and today we continue to apply these ideas to specific therapies. Emotionally Focused Therapy, a specific approach to couple’s therapy, will be described both personally and professionally.  Sue Marriott LCSW, CGP and Camille Scent, Ed.S., LPC, LMFT discuss using EFT in working with couples and how it is different than other closely related therapies.  Scent is an expert in this area and has found a way to integrate and explain polyvagal theory as it intersects with this form of couples therapy. Apply ideas from attachment and polyvagal neuroscience to Emotionally-Focused Therapy (EFT). Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) was developed initially by Sue Johnson 30 years ago and it is considered by many as the gold standard in tested, proven intervention for couples. The International Center for Excellence in Emotionally-Focused Therapy (ICEEFT) connects 70 centers around the globe. Our guest today is certified by ICEEFT and is an EFT supervisor for therapists in training. Apply the neuroscience from polyvagal theory to a specific therapeutic approach called Emotionally-Focused Therapy. Who is Camille? Camille Scent, Ed.S., LPC, LMFT, is a Certified Emotionally Focused Therapist & Supervisor. She maintains a private practice just north of Atlanta, GA, Wise Heart Families, where she works with couples and families and provides supervision for therapists learning/practicing EFT. She is also a board member for the Atlanta Center for EFT. Camille is also a long-time loyal supporter of Therapist Uncensored via Patreon, and we thank her from the bottom of our hearts. In plainspeak, she’s super smart and has a lot to offer, so if you want to learn more, need couples therapy – a little or a lot – or need EFT supervision – give her a shout! Even high-conflict couples can get closer by focusing on the emotion between them rather than only the content. In this episode: Therapist personal experience in couples therapy using EFT How emotion heals Sue Johnson & development this therapeutic technique Where to focus in couples therapy to heal the relationship – it’s not on content that’s for sure! IFS – Internal Family Systems Therapy The attachment & neuroscience connection — see paper below If you want to study the theory or find an EFT therapist – resources below Resources: Polyvagal Theory & the EFT Negative Cycle,by Camille Scent – full paper at this link The Atlanta Center for Emotionally Focused Therapy (ACEFT), founded by Certified EFT Trainer Michael Barnett, ED.S., LPC, offers training opportunities in Emotionally Focused Therapy, serves as a connecting point for therapists learning/practicing EFT, and maintains a membership directory of EFT trained therapists and EFT workshops for couples & families. The International Centre for Excellence in Emotionally Focused Therapy (ICEEFT) was founded in 1998 by Dr. Sue Johnson and her colleagues in Ottawa, Canada. ICEEFT is the organizational body that designs and approves training programs related to Emotionally Focused Therapy, certifies EFT therapists around the world and conducts both process and outcome research studies on EFT. Find an Emotionally Focused Therapist – ICEEFT’s searchable, international directory of therapists trained in Emotionally Focused Therapy Dr. Sue Johnson – personal website for the developer of EFT Resources more specifically for couples/families: “Demon Dialogues” handout – From Sue Johnson’s website, a quick overview/introduction to the most typical patterns couples get stuck in Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love book by Sue Johwwwnson Hold Me Tight Workshops – International listing of Hold Me Tight programs (based on the book) offered by EFT trained therapists Hold Me Tight online program – do it yourself online version of Hold Me Tight Hold Me Tight/Let Me Go – Workshop developed by EFT Trainers Nancy & Paul Aiken that focuses on relationship enhancement for parents and children. Specific variations are offered for adolescents, young adults, and adult children. (They also offer training for therapists.) Love Sense: The Revolutionary New Science of Romantic Relationships book by Sue Johnson Emotionally Focused Couple Therapy for Dummies by Brent Bradley and James Furrow Books for therapists: Attachment Theory in Practice: Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) with Individuals, Couples, and Families by Sue Johnson, Ed.D. Stepping into Emotionally Focused Couple Therapy: Key Ingredients of Change by Lorrie L. Brubacher, M Ed, LMFT, Certified EFT Trainer Emotionally Focused Family Therapy: Restoring Connection and Promoting Resilience By James L. Furrow, Gail Palmer, Susan M. Johnson, George Faller, Lisa Palmer-Olsen (all EFT Trainers) Emotionally Focused Couple Therapy with Trauma Survivors: Strengthening Attachment Bonds by Sue Johnson The Practice of Emotionally Focused Couple Therapy: Creating Connection by Sue Johnson (updated 3rd edition published in 2020) More excellent therapists talking about therapy – these are good one’s not to miss! https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu-87-treating-complex-trauma-and-attachment-with-guest-dr-daniel-brown/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/https-therapistuncensored-com-tu140-couples-therapy-experts-ellyn-bader-peter-pearson/   Don’t forget, you are invited to join our private online community through Patreon. It offers extra content and access, including reading groups and a Therapist Directory that is coming soon…  Super cool – it also helps us keep the podcast running ad-free! We’d love to meet you there.   Enjoy this episode: Tweet about this episode!

Body-based therapy is important because there is no difference between the mind and the body. Our Patrons linked us with the guest for this show – check them out here!  Bioenergetic therapist Dr. Robert Coffman joins co-host, Dr. Ann Kelley, for a conversation on body-focused therapy. Learn more about the interplay between our nervous systems and how it all relates to attachment and trauma. We are diving into body-focused therapy today thanks to one of our patreon’s, who recommended this expert.  In today’s episode join co-host Dr. Ann Kelly and Dr. Robert Coffman’s conversation on using the body to heal the mind. This therapy has been around for over 100 years but it is still not commonplace in a lot of therapy practices. “The trauma is stored in a part of the brain that’s not accessible with language.” Body-focused therapy is old. William Reich published Mass Psychology of Fascism in 1933 and in 1936 was excluded from the International Society of Psychoanalysis. Nonetheless, Reich’s ideas inspired the development of several branches of body psychotherapy, including bioenergetic analysis, biosynthesis, and Hakomi, to name a few. Today, body psychotherapy is practiced in many forms by therapists around the world. Associations such as the European Association of Body Psychotherapy (EABP) and the United States Association for Body Psychotherapy (USABP) oversee the field of body psychotherapy and offer training to interested professionals. Dr. Robert Coffman joins co-host Dr. Ann Kelley for a discussion on body-focused therapy. Body mind brain what is the difference? Your body can determine how you are feeling internally, and you can enhance and limit your progress based on how your body positioning. Freud was able to see depression in someone’s chest. You can see signs of being closed off in the body position even when someone believes that are open to connection. Who is Dr. Robert Coffman? Robert Coffman has been practicing clinical psychology for over 45 years as a relationally oriented somatic psychotherapist in California. He was trained as a humanistic psychologist under the guidance of Dr.Carl Rogers, then as a psychoanalytically oriented psychologist working with Dr. Althea Horner, object relations teacher, and then as a somatically oriented psychotherapist under the tutelage of Bioenergetic trainer Dr. Robert Hilton. Dr. Coffman has integrated object relations theory, deep attachment work with somatic practices from Bioenergetic Analysis, Somatic Experiencing Trauma Work,  and Bodynamic Body Psychotherapy. He is an international trainer in Bioenergetics for the IBA and has been doing individual and group supervision for 40 years. Dr. Coffman specializes in shock and developmental trauma working primarily with adults. Learn about therapist uncensored Those who truly understand body-focused therapy don’t need to hear the story, they can see it working on your physical body. Robert Coffman episode details: Why the body needs to be brought into therapy. What muscular holding patterns are. How the body has reflexive responses to situations. Preventing dorsal vagal shutdown in children. The Body Doesn’t Lie. How posture impacts our mental state. The ability to feel emotions in your body, and using the body to work through them. When you work with the body, transference changes. How our body stores energy and emotion. The profound impact of realizing how your body relates to the deeper meaning Panic Attack is just a label for different things that are happening in the body. You can diffuse that energy. Resources: Links: Dr. Coffman provided a scan of some important pages of The Field of Body Psychotherapy What is BioEnergetic? https://www.bioenergetic-therapy.com/index.php/en/ https://www.bioenergetic-therapy.com/index.php/en/ba-resources/awarded-articles Bioenergetics: The Revolutionary Therapy That Uses the Language of the Body to Heal the Problems of the Mind by Alexander Lowen. Books Dr. Coffman Suggested For Different Levels: If you are into and involved in doing body psychotherapy of any kind: The Handbook of Body Psychotherapy and Somatic Psychology (950 pages) edited by Gustl Marlock and Halko Weiss If you are thinking about bringing the body into your existing talk therapy practice: Body Psychotherapy by Nick Totton Body Psychotherapy edited by Tree Staunton Body-Centered Psychotherapy by Ron Kurtz About a Body edited by Jenny Corrigall and others If you’re already doing some body-informed interventions ( mindfulness, neurologically informed stuff, EMDR, Brainspottin, etc.) but not Body Psychotherapy, then look at these books: Body, Brain, Love: A therapists workbook for Affect Regulation and Somatic Attachment. by Karen Rachels Body Process by James Kepner Emotional Anatomy by Stanley Keleman Relational Somatic Psychotherapy by Robert Hilton In an Unspoken Voice by Peter Levine Embodied Relating by Nick Totton Healing the Fragmented Selves of Trauma Survivors by Janina Fisher If you are a bodyworker of any kind but not a psychotherapist I would recommend: Psychology of the Body by Elliot Green and Barbara Goodrich Dunn Haven’t learned enough about body therapy? https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu65-sensorimotor-psychotherapy-tuning-into-the-wisdom-of-your-body-with-guest-dr-pat-ogden/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/what-is-somatic-experiencing-with-guest-abi-blakeslee/   https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu99-food-the-body-trauma-attachment-with-guests-paula-scatoloni-rachel-lewis-marlow/ You are invited …. to join our private online membership of Neuronerds. Become a patron of our show for just a few bucks a month and gain access to us and to the incredibly rich community in Patreon. As a patreon you will get access to small peer-lead reading groups and join a powerhouse community.  As a platinum patron you will be thanked on our website with a link to your practice to support whatever work you do. Importantly, it is specifically because of our patrons that we are able to remain ad-free.  THANK YOU!  We hope you join us, we’d love to see you there. Tweet this episode!

“Insight is the boobie-prize of therapy,”  Lori Gottlieb in today’s episode. There are many misconceptions and stereotypes about therapy.  In today’s episode join co-host Sue Marriott and Lori Gottlieb’s discussion and get a fast-take on how to use the experience to best get what you actually need. “We are unreliable narrators of our own story. The parts we DON’T see are the ones that can help us the most.” Loro Gottlieb joins co-host Sue Marriott LCSW, CGP for a discussion on the behind-the-scenes look at what therapy really is. In her NYT best-selling book, Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, Lori shared stories of several patients – including herself- and tells her own story about  seeking therapy and what she learned. She helps people understand how to solve their own problems, understand their behavior and actions, and tap into their “inner knowing” whenever they need it. Too often people expect the therapist to just give them the solution but therapists actually wants to give people the tools to solve their problems as they come up. She shares her approach to therapy today, but also really gives us some background on how important it is to understand that we are telling our own story, and we have the agency to be able to change that narrative and use that to face down the issues in your life. People go to therapy to unlearn themselves. Who is Lori Gottlieb? Lori Gottlieb is a powerhouse, and we are so honored to have her on the show. She is a psychotherapist and author of the New York Times bestseller Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, which is currently being adapted as a television series. In addition to her clinical practice, she writes The Atlantic’s weekly “Dear Therapist” advice column and is co-host of the popular “Dear Therapists” podcast produced by Katie Couric. She contributes regularly to The New York Times and many other publications and in 2019, her TED Talk was one of the Top 10 Most Watched of the Year. A member of the Advisory Council for Bring Change to Mind, she is a sought-after expert in media such as The Today Show, Good Morning America, CBS This Morning, CNN, and NPR’s “Fresh Air.” People go in circles and end up in the same place, but they don’t understand their role in the story might be quite different than they expect. Lori Gottlieb episode details: Being a therapist and also a human, breaking down the wall between the two. How you may be an unreliable narrator in your own story. Why it’s important to understand and know that how you present your story – focusing on the process not the content. Why the role you think you have might NOT be your ACTUAL role. We have a choice in how we respond to issues and people in our lives. “The most effective therapy is a rich human connection,” Lori Gottlieb talking with Sue Marriott. Resources: Visit her website: LoriGottlieb.com Grab her book, Maybe You Should Talk to Someone Check out her Podcast, Dear Therapists Her column, Dear Therapist in The Atlantic Don’t miss her writings in The New York Times!   Haven’t gotten enough of therapy and therapists? https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu62-the-luv-doc-dating-and-relationship-advice-from-the-trenches-with-dan-hardick/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu67-a-practical-technique-to-calm-and-confidence-with-guest-richard-hill/   Don’t forget, you are invited to join our Patreon. It offers so much extra content, like book clubs, study groups, but it also helps us keep the podcast running ad-free! We’d love to see you there.   Enjoy this episode: Tweet about this episode for others to listen too!

Is what we call attachment security yet another form of privilege? Gulp. If you are marginalized and feel you can add substance to this conversation of class, race, culture, and attachment, please contact us!   We can publish your written word, highlight your work, pass on your perspective or potentially… have you on as a guest.  We and our incredible audience want to listen and learn. With deep respect for the scholars, clinicians, and scientists that have cumulatively developed one of the most solid lines of empirically supported psychological theory in human history, we trust that these are questions those who came before us have previously welcomed and would continue to encourage.  By definition, we cannot know what is unconsciously affecting our perceptions, interpretations, and experienced-based assumptions.  Implicit bias is real though, and it is our absolute responsibility to vet it out and question what we think we know. Our deep hope is that the re-examination of this line of exploration serves to refine, add dimension and thus embolden attachment theory, not diminish it. Given what those of us in the dominant cultures are only slowly consciously realizing, it is extremely hard to see what we don’t perceive.  Questioning one’s relationship with parents can be offensive to some, and not having enough humility and shame can be detrimental in some cultures, ie. the opposite of insecurity.  Working to escape our embedded cultural and experience-based assumptions about what constitutes maternal sensitivity, security and human attachment disorder is not an act, or a podcast, or a moment, but a permanent stance. It’s a WEIRD problem (Western, educated, industrialized, rich and developed) and has perpetuated marginalization and exclusion of those that are different. Don’t underestimate the impact of class, culture and race. In this episode, Sue Marriott and Ann Kelley continue to explore how class, culture, and race impact the path of psychotherapy, especially when it comes to attachment.  They discuss how socioeconomic status (SES) by itself affects human development, (non-gendered) patriarchal assumptions, cultural variations especially related to individualistic versus communal cultures, epigenetics of racial violence and child development impacts of First People’s cultural annihilation, By 2 years of age, the simple fact of income disparity is a huge factor affeting the total surface area of your brain (more is better). The less reliable income or family wealth, the greater the statistical difference.  Complex language exposure and stress are huge variables, and teasing apart that and attachment science is complex. They discuss patriarchy, racial inequality, collectivist versus individualistic cultures, poverty and class – HUGE topics that we too often change check-out lines to avoid awkwardness and the fears of saying the wrong thing or offending someone.  Sue and Ann chose to mess up, unintentionally offend and feel scared and insecure in their words for the greater goal of engaging in conversation and stimulating thinking on how Western white wealthy privilege impacts attachment science and our views on healthy child development overall. NOTE: As the hosts of Therapist Uncensored we are middle-aged, educated, white, cis-women.  We both mostly identify as gay but can pass even when we don’t mean to.  Even though we like to see ourselves as outsiders, we are decidedly not.  We are wealthy relative to the world, have the massive privilege of the mic for a Top 10 show on iTunes with almost 2 million downloads so our voice is ridiculously and undeservedly amplified over other voices. We hope to use our privilege to share the science of relating to those who would otherwise not ever have access and to amplify voices and perspectives that might otherwise not be heard.  We love our collective community of professional mental health providers but don’t limit our programming to therapists only because we know healers come in all forms and not everyone has access or desire to getting letters behind your name. If your voice has been marginalized and feel you can add substance to this conversation of class, race, culture and attachment, please contact us  – we can publish your written word, highlight your website, discuss your work, or potentially have you on as a guest.  We and our audience want to listen and learn. EVEN MORE Resources on class, culture and race: Parenting and Preschooler Attachment Among Low-income Urban African American Families  by Barnett et all https://div12.org/keeping-culture-in-mind-mentalizing-from-a-cross-cultural-perspective/ Is Attachment Theory Consistent with Aboriginal Parenting Realities? Raymond Neckowaya, Keith Brownlee, and Bruno Castellana https://fncaringsociety.com/sites/default/files/online-journal/vol3num2/Neckoway_Brownlee_Castellan_pp65.pdf APA Deep Poverty Initiative Challenge: https://www.apa.org/about/governance/president/deep-poverty-challenge Best Practices in Conceptualizing and Measuring Social Class in Psychological Research by Matthew A. Diemer, Rashmita S. Mistry, Martha E. Wadsworth, Irene Lopez, Faye Reimers http://www.irenelopezphd.com/uploads/1/0/1/4/10149037/best_practices_in_conceptualizing_and_measuring_social_class.pdf Unmasking race, class and culture in the psychoanalytic space Edited by Kate White, drawn from the John Bowlby Memorial Conference. Agishtein, P., & Brumbaugh, C. (2013). Cultural variation in adult attachment: The impact of ethnicity, collectivism, and country of origin. Journal of Social, Evolutionary, and Cultural Psychology, 7(4), 384-405. http://dx.doi.org/10.1037/h0099181 Multicultural implications for the applications of attachment theory by Brown et al. American Journal of Psychotherapy. https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu20-developing-racial-identity-with-guests-rudy-lucas-and-christine-schmidt/ Respect this perspective?  Please SHARE this episode, leave us a rating and review on your podcast player, and, SHARE this episode (yes repeated on purpose because word of mouth is the most powerful way to make an impact). Want to hear more about culture class race and attachment from us? Check out these episodes for more awesome perspectives and content!! https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu123_narratives_of_fear/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu124-hip-hop-as-therapy-beat-making-lyrics-community-empowerment/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu109-this-is-resilience-in-action-with-guest-alphanso-appleton/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu20-developing-racial-identity-with-guests-rudy-lucas-and-christine-schmidt/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu85-attachment-in-the-classroom-with-guest-linno-rhodes/ Join our neuronerd community below, or just look for us on Facebook to get more cool free content!!

Overcoming fear to gain connection. There is hope for us all – no matter your attachment history, there is hope for change with relationships when we conquer our fear. In this episode, Sue Marriott LCSW, CGP shares a specific case about an awkward goose named Felicity. She first heard Feli in a paper entitled A Felicitous Meeting of Attachment and Relational Psychotherapy Daniel N. Stern. The original article was written by H Fischer-Mamblona, both of which are linked in the Resource section.  This has been a helpful story to some who feel rather awkward themselves. We hope you enjoy the story, thank you for your incredible work Dan Stern. About On the Evolution of Attachment-Disorder Behavior by H Fischer-Mamblona Using an example of a goose which grew up in complete isolation, this article shows how escape behaviour increases through all its developmental steps by lack of a sufficient secure primary attachment object. If a gosling has no mother, its fear influences wide parts of its behaviour and blocks the capacity to approach another animal in order to form a new attachment. But the urge for attachment is still alive and provokes strong conflicts between this urge and fear. In these situations displacement activities and apathy occur–attachment-disordered behaviour. Under partly artificial circumstances, a change to ‘normal’ attachment behaviour took place by reduction of escape motivation, which enabled the goose to accept her brood. From this moment on the attachment-disordered behaviour, the displacement activity and the apathy disappeared. Implications to human behaviour are drawn–a comparison between displacement activity and neurotic symptoms, the state of apathy and personal disorder. A synthesis of ethological and psychoanalytical models concerning etiological and therapeutic aspects is discussed. Fear and attachment, not aggression and sexuality–our ‘animal heritage’–are the primary factors which influence our development. The balance of fear and attachment is the basis for a healthy or unhealthy development of social relationships. This applies to social living animals as well as to humans. Find more content on the relational sciences at https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes TU 117:  Resilience and Trauma with Dr. Bruce Perry  Daniel N. Stern wrote The Interpersonal World of the Infant: A View from Psychoanalysis and Developmental Psychology, which challenges the traditional developmental sequence as well as the idea that issues of attachment, dependency, and trust are confined to infancy, Stern integrates clinical and experimental science to support his revolutionizing vision of the social and emotional life of the youngest children, which has had spiraling implications for theory, research, and practice. Resources: On the Evolution of Attachment-Disorder Behavior – H Fischer-Mamblona The Interpersonal World of the Infant: A View from Psychoanalysis and Developmental Psychology by Daniel N. Stern – Amazon | Bookshop.org A Felicitous Meeting of Attachment and Relational Psychotherapy  – Daniel N. Stern   Haven’t gotten enough of the rich content from Therapist Uncensored? https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu31-attachment-on-a-spectrum-navigating-adult-insecurity-and-security/ Tweet

The Intersection of Narcissism & Abandonment. Four bricks to a narcissistic relations: Fear, Hope, Guilt and Lack of Knowledge. Is narcissism related more to preoccupation or a dismissing state of mind regarding attachment?  You may be surprised.  Learn more about the science of narcissism, abandonment and it’s relationship to attachment theory. Dr. Durvasula shares her deep study into these dynamics and her experience-based wisdom on working with those struggling with it as well as those in relationship to those who have high narcissistic tendencies. If you enjoyed our podcast series Holding Your Own with Challenging Personalities, then you are gonna love this episode – it only deepens and expands on the ideas presented there.  See #6 of our 6 part series on Holding Your Own in Challenging Relationships. Dr. Ramani Durvasula joins co-host Sue Marriott LCSW, CGP for a discussion on breaking down narcissism and abandonment.  Sue found Dr. Ramani accidentally in a video she stumbled upon where she was a consultant to Will Smith in The Red Table Talk Takeover.   The video was about responsibly confronting a difficult relationship.  She is an excellent clinician that brought professionalism and deeper insight into a high-impact Hollywood story such that helps the public appreciate mentalization and the skills involved in managing difficult relationships. There are presentations of narcissism that are post-traumatic, but there is also narcissism that comes from over-indulgence.  Cringe… both neglect and too much attention?  Don’t worry, we will explain how to hit the right note here. Who is Dr. Ramani? The focus of Dr. Ramani Durvasula’s clinical, academic and consultative work is the etiology and impact of narcissism and high-conflict, entitled, antagonistic personality styles on human relationships, mental health, and societal expectations.  She has spoken on these issues to clinicians, educators and researchers around the world. Her work has been featured at SXSW, TEDx, and on a wide range of media platforms including Red Table Talk, the Today Show, Oxygen, Investigation Discovery, Bravo, and she is a featured expert on the digital media mental health platform Med Circle. To be clear, Dr. Durvasula’s is not just psychologist for Hollywood.  Her research on personality disorders has been funded by the National Institutes of Health and she is a Consulting Editor of the scientific journal Behavioral Medicine. Dr. Durvasula has also been a participant in the governance of the American Psychological Association, and most recently as the Chair of the STAY-MHSAS Training Advisory Committee of the Minority Fellowship Program. Most attractive to our audience, who let’s say … values authenticity, is that she has been described as “brutally honest” when it comes to calling out incivility and selfishness in relationship. If narcissists are so confident why are they afraid of abandonment? Trust us – it’s a driving force. Episode details on narcissism and abandonment: Dismissing states of mind and preoccupation in relationship to attachment and self-centeredness. How narcissists mirror rather than empathize and why that matters so much.  (This is a good way to discern what you are dealing with and to check yourself.) Four main bricks of a narcissistic relationship. The 90 / 10 rule in narcissistic relationships, a great Dr. Ramani idea and suggestion! Self-awareness in relationships – how to cultivate self versus other focus. If you are the one with narcissistic tendencies – thanks for digging into this, that is very cool!  What to do.  (Remember to also check out Therapist Uncensored series on Holding Your Own with Challenging Personalities, referenced above.) Healthy narcissism. Diagnosis concerns & personality disorders. Core behaviors of those with high narcissism. Help for those in relationship with those highly involved with themselves. 🙂 How the educational systems can foster narcissism. We spend 90% of our time on difficult people, leaving only 10% for the good ones. Switch the math! Resources: https://openpsychometrics.org/tests/NPI/ https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/guide-better-relationships/201908/insecurity-narcissism-and-the-culture-victimhood “Don’t You Know Who I Am”: How to Stay Sane in the Era of Narcissism, Entitlement and Incivility. Should I Stay or Should I Go:  Surviving a Relationship With a Narcissist, http://doctor-ramani.com/contact/ Her series with Jada Pinkett Smith & family on the Red Table Talk series – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHHWgG7dB6A   Haven’t gotten enough of learning about challenging people? https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu111-navigating-narcissistic-relationships-gaslighting-manipulation-and-grandiosity-called-out/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu105-narcissism-what-is-going-on-under-the-defense-with-sue-marriott-and-ann-kelley/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu13-our-powerful-fascination-with-narcissism-in-the-era-of-trump/ Tweet

The Essence of Trauma-informed Therapy & Trauma-informed Parenting Harness the power of neuroscience. For parents and for therapists treating children and adults – learn more about the science of trauma and what heals. We are human, and we do have trauma, but maybe we need to look at being focused on relationships, connection, and curiosity about why this is happening. This discussion looks at how the connection is a biological imperative, and we’re always working towards building a relationship. Therapist Robyn Gobbel, LCSW joins co-host Sue Marriott LCSW, CGP for a discussion on breaking down the hardest parts of relationships and parenting. Robyn’s shares insights into the essence of trauma-informed therapy. She has developed online communities, as well as a podcast, all about helping parents who are dealing with these specific issues in practical application. We hope that her creative solutions will help you. Trauma-informed parenting is about connection. We need to focus on what it means to be human Who is Robyn Gobbel? Robyn Gobbel, MSW, RPT-S, loves coffee, P!NK, and everything about the brain. Once (recently!) her teenager went ballistic on her for getting ANOTHER (glitter!) coffee mug in the mail. Robyn loves cultivating deep, resonant connections with anyone who is up for it, as well as teaching anyone who will listen to harness the power of neuroscience so they can cultivate deep, resonant connections. What would change in the world if we could all do that? To see, be with, feel, and deeply know each other…and ourselves. Robyn thinks everything could change. Conversation includes resources on trauma-informed therapy and trauma-informed parenting: Changing how to provide mental health care to families. The importance of regulation AND connection. Working on a book about personal trauma healing The importance of understanding the relational neurobiology of being human. The importance of community for parents dealing with dysregulation and behavioral issues. Reducing the shame factor in much of trauma-informed therapy. Treatment of trauma-based behavioral issues. Virtual online clubs for parents who are struggling. Regulated, connected kids feel safe. Connected parents regulate by parenting in a way that feels “right”, not by following a technique. Resources on therapy and parenting kids with trauma: Robyn has free resources on her website https://icowellness.com/ Why do I get so dysregulated?  Check out Robyn’s podcast Online Club for Parents Haven’t gotten enough? https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu27-raising-secure-children-with-guest-tina-payne-bryson/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu53-complex-trauma-and-managing-dysregulation-with-guest-robyn-gobbel/ Tweet

Attachment Through the Lifespan – Leading attachment researcher Dr. Alan Sroufe shares the summary of his (and his team in Minnesota) decades of research looking at attachment though life. They followed individuals from birth through infancy and toddlerhood, to school age, adolescence, early adulthood and now parenthood.  This is important because it helps us understand the essence of what attachment is measuring, and how to cultivate security no matter what age you are or what background you come from. Dr. Sroufe is an internationally recognized expert on early attachment relationships, emotional development, and developmental psychopathology and has published seven books and 140 articles on these and related topics! —- Attachment through the lifespan – learn the science behind the longest study ever conducted on attachment Dr. Alan Sroufe’s new book summarizes decades of attachment research – A Compelling Idea, How We Become the Person’s We Are (2020).  It’s part memoire, part history of attachment science – and it’s great for our audience because it brings the findings of this ground-breaking longitudinal research on how we become ourselves in one succinct place. The Minnesota Longitudinal Study of Risk and Adaptation began in the early 1970s, initiated by Byron Egeland as a study of a large cohort of mothers living in poverty. In the 1970s and early 1980s, empirical attachment research had been primarily pursued by Ainsworth and her students. The research group led by Alan Sroufe and Egeland was important in providing a second pillar to hold up the paradigm from the 1970s to the present. The Strange Situation was conducted with the sample by Sroufe and his graduate students Everett Waters and Brian Vaughn. Early work by the research group documented the role of caregiving in shaping patterns of attachment in the Strange Situation, and also the capacity of infant attachment patterns to predict later social competence and mental health. Sroufe and Egeland created an ‘electric atmosphere’ in their research group, as they provided the first longitudinal evidence of the implications of attachment relationships.1 Students described their ‘imperturbable optimism’, ‘wisdom about human nature’, and ‘compassion’ as important qualities in the creation of the atmosphere, along with the sense of contributing to meaningful and cutting-edge developmental science.2 They were a great stabilizing and integrative presence for the field of attachment research. Though Egeland and Sroufe have now retired, research with the Minnesota Longitudinal Study of Risk and Adaptation has continued. Other episodes you may enjoy:  Ep 117 with Dr. Bruce Perry discussing trauma and resilience  Co-host Sue Marriott LCSW, CGP and Dr. Sroufe discuss his reflections – both personal and professional. It is rare to get to sit at the hearth with such an important contributor to the field but you get just that – we encourage you to get the book, sit back and listen to the podcast and learn from the very source. Dr. Sroufe is Professor Emeritus of Child Psychology in the Institute of Child Development at the University of Minnesota and he has been an Associate Editor of Developmental Psychology and Development and Psychopathology.  His awards include the Distinguished Scientific Contribution Award from the Society for Research in Child Development, the Bowlby Ainsworth Award for Contributions to Attachment Research, the G. Stanley Hall Award for Distinguished Scientific Contribution to Developmental Psychology from Division 7 of the American Psychology Association, an Honorary Doctorate Degree from the University of Leiden, and the Distinguished Teaching Award from the College of Education, University of Minnesota. Conversation includes: Guiding question behind Sroufe’s ongoing 1974 study Why is change difficult? Negative expectations can result in off-putting behavior Chronic early stress and early predictors Positive relationships with teachers reported for those with secure attachment backgrounds The importance of a supportive relationship as a predictor Those with secure history who experience bad times don’t lose their secure history “Earned” secure attachment and its neurological intricacies Importance of being able to turn to someone, giving and receiving support, legacies of attachment   Resources: A Compelling Idea, How We Become the Person’s We Are (2020) by Alan Sroufe The Development of the Person The Minnesota Study of Risk and Adaptation from Birth Through Adulthood by Dr. Alan Sroufe et al. Hey neuronerds wanting to know more – here is a great link to a PDF summarizing the study and is well worth the read – Minnesota longitudinal study of risk and adaptation – chapter 4   To reach Dr. Sroufe Dr. Sroufe’s CV Lessons from the Minnesota Longitudinal Study Clinical Application of the Adult Attachment Interview Edited by H. Steele & M. Steele Haven’t gotten enough of attachment through the lifespan?  We have you covered, please hear Sue Marriott’s conversation with him from a few years ago – episode 56 click below. https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu56-how-we-come-to-define-ourselves-attachment-research-over-decades-with-guest-alan-sroufe/ Tweet

Learn more about your relationships no matter what, but if you happen to be a therapist,  dig into learning more about couples in therapy. Every couple has its ups and downs, but it’s easy to think that your relationship is uniquely challenging. Experts in couples therapy and a couple themselves, Ellyn Bader and Peter Pearson join co-host Sue Marriott to discuss what most people get wrong about working with couples, and how to help get it right. Together, they’ll dive into the dos and don’ts of couples therapy, from the perspective of the therapist and the patient. Who are Ellyn Bader and Peter Pearson? Dr. Ellyn Bader is considered by many to be the preeminent expert in couples therapy training. Together with her husband, Dr. Peter Pearson, they created the Developmental Model of Couples Therapy, and literally wrote the book on marital therapy.   Peter Pearson, Ph.D., and his wife, Dr. Ellyn Bader, founded The Couples Institute in 1984. Both have now helped literally thousands of couples in their work. Pete and Ellyn have been featured in over 50 radio and television programs including The Today Show, Good Morning America, and CBS Early Morning News. They have appeared on NPR and been quoted in publications including The New York Times, Oprah Magazine, Business Insider, Redbook, and Cosmopolitan. Their popular book, Tell Me No Lies, and In Quest of a Mythical Mate has been of critical help to many couples. What’s the point of couples therapy? The Holy Grail of couples work is really just trying to help couples differentiate together, instead of just individuating on their own. What do we mean by that? Put simply, tensions and difference doesn’t have to be scary and separate, but can instead be exciting. Most fights are, at their core, power struggles. It’s often framed as “I want you to change to accommodate me” and vice versa. To grow and change, they need to shift their focus away from winners and losers, but instead towards the WE. The key to couples getting there, is helping each person really own their own stuff. Importantly, can we take responsibility without shame for our own role in each conflict. What generates change in relationships? There are three things that really get couples to change their behavior Desperation or crisis – whether it’s a medical emergency or a natural disaster, having an external purpose or focus can generate really quick and in depth communication Negotiation – often the most common thing we try and do as couples, “I’ll change X if you change Y” is often the shortest lived and also hardest to make stick Inspiration – is there something compelling enough or exciting enough about the future to inspire a change What role do therapist play? There’s no substitute for having years of experience as a couples therapist. Specifically, if you’re looking for a new couples therapist, make sure to interview them and really find a place and a person that will be right for you. It’s also important to remember that the therapist isn’t there to take anyone’s side. Again, couples therapy is about finding and holding your own accountability. You need to be prepared to do the work on your own side to make your relationship grown and expand. You might also enjoy: https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu121-the-purpose-of-relationships-redefined-during-quarantine-with-stan-tatkin/ https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/holding-your-own1-messy-but-secure-relating/ RESOURCES: Ellyn and Peter’s website contains all kinds of interactive materials and blogs. A must see! https://www.couplesinstitutetraining.com/   Need CEU’s??  We’ve got you covered, use OURCLAN for 10% off – It’s Not Me It’s My Amygdala – Advanced Course Connecting the Sciences of the Mind to Everyday Relationships FOUR hours of quality content and 3 CE’s available to professionals. Since you are this deep into our show notes, then you are indeed one of our peeps and thus invited to be part of our clan  GET 10% off this signature course by using code OURCLAN!  – To get more of this kind of in-depth discussion with quality content and real-world healing – join us on FB where you can find more of your peeps. Join our Neuronerd Patreon community at http://www.patreon.com/therapistuncensored for as little as $5 per month.   Join us now. Now offering reading/study groups exclusively for our patrons.

Dive into hook up culture, locker room talk, and the modern shifts in youth sexual behavior and health. Peggy Orenstein, NYT best-selling author, unpacks her new book “Boys and Sex” with co-host Ann Kelley. In this peak behind the curtain of the experience of young male sexuality, we’ll see how boys struggle with the conflicting needs of the conquest narrative of sex and their own internal understanding of pleasure and vulnerability. Her book was written about both cis and trans men, and covers the whole spectrum of sexual orientations, backgrounds, and experiences. Who is Peggy Orenstein? New York Times Bestselling Author of “Boys and Sex” and “Girls and Sex” Named one of the “40 women who changed the media business in the past 40 years” by The Columbia Journalism Review Her TED Talk, “What Young Women Believe About Their Own Sexual Pleasure,” has been viewed over 4.9 million times Frequent writer and contributor for The New York Times, NPR, Good Morning America, and many other talk shows What’s to learn? Through her research and conversations with young men Orenstein learned two major things That boys are ready and willing to have honest, blunt, and insightful dialogues about their sexuality and the way they understand sex That nobody really asked them about it before, that adults weren’t talking to them about what a full healthy sexuality looks like The recognition of emotional and physical vulnerability in sex allows us to discover something deeply personal about ourselves, and young men and boys are often intentionally cut off from those feelings and experiences. Both through societal norms and expectations as well as pornography. What can we do to help change the culture around sex? Sex discussions should include more than just consent, according to Shafia Zaloom in “Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between.” Sex should be legal, ethical, and good. To help achieve that in the next generation, Orenstein outlines at the end of her book a set of the kinds of conversations you can have with your children to promote connection, compassion, and empathy in their sex lives. Some other recommendations Orenstein has for how to shift “locker room culture” Coaches can bring in programming on sexual health and behavior Friends taking friends aside, away from the large group, and have one on one talks about their behavior Recognize that it will be a challenge but know that it isn’t impossible RESOURCES: Additional resources for this episode: “Boys and Sex: Young Men on Hookups, Love, Porn, Consent, and Navigating the New Masculinity” by Peggy Orenstein “Girls and Sex: Navigating the Complicated New Landscape” by Peggy Orenstein “Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between: The New and Necessary Conversations Today’s Teenagers Need to Have About Consent, Sexual Harassment, Healthy Relationships, Love, and More” by Shafia Zaloom “Masks, No Kissing, and ‘a Little Kinky’: Dating and Sex in a Pandemic” by Tara Parker-Pope “Sex in the Time of Coronavirus” by Elizabeth Bernstein “American Hookup: The New Culture of Sex on Campus” by Lisa Wade Need CEU’s??  We’ve got you covered, use OURCLAN for 10% off – It’s Not Me It’s My Amygdala – Advanced Course Connecting the Sciences of the Mind to Everyday Relationships FOUR hours of quality content and 3 CE’s available to professionals. Since you are this deep into our show notes, then you are indeed one of our peeps and thus invited to be part of our clan  GET 10% off this signature course by using code OURCLAN!  – To get more of this kind of in-depth discussion with quality content and real-world healing – join us on FB where you can find more of your peeps.  Want even more than that?  Join our Neuronerd Patreon community at patreon.com/therapistuncensored for as little as $5 per month.   Join us now.

Holding Your Own with Challenging Personalities – take away’s from our series on staying (or becoming) secure in relationship with those with challenging personalities – DEDICATED TO OUR PATRONS!! Session 6 of 6 – What if it’s you that is the challenging one… and other take away’s on challenging personalities.  Let us help you change your internal security and grow secure functioning relationships.  This episode is dedicated our to our private community of Patron Neuronerds. Here is a smattering of some of our most special elves whom have been with us since the very beginning!!   They give from $1 to $25 per month and jumped in at the first chance to support us AND have stuck with us!!! THANK YOU TO Kathleen Geiger, Isaac Marsolek, Jacalyn Brecher, James Baker,Carys Adultman, Claire Holberton, Camille Scent, Kirill Eremenko, Sonya Richardson-Thomas, Ashley Cruz, Michael Hilgers, Becki Mendivil, Linno Rhodes, Lorie Ammon, Deb, Donna Woods, Pat Spencer, Jeffrey Benzick MD, Judy Kamara, Leanna, Bobbi Blain, Megan Smith, Tyra Butler, Amy Groessl, Theresa Tenney, Kathryn Antenbring, Sarah Lazarewicz, Julie Carbaugh, Sally Mounir, Anonymous … and so many many more who joined forces since that first moment.  You guys are our backbone. You can find more of our current Patrons here (we have almost 200)!  We thank Platinum and Gold Neuronerds on our website.   We don’t usually include our actual transcript but what the heck, we are gonna try it this time and see if it’s useful to anybody.   Unedited transcript of the show Episode notes – HYO Challenging Personalities: What if it’s you that is the difficult one?  How to change – Insecurity begets defensiveness – so anything we can do to lower our defenses, realize we most likely aren’t ACTUALLY under attack, and work towards safety inside ourselves and cultivating safety in our close others. Much of the episode is devoted to this topic, these show notes will focus on resources in general.  We mention being raised by difficult parents but that’s a big topic for another time so we put in some resources for ya down below. For EVERYBODY – we can all improve our listening skills: Listen and repeat it back so they other person says “yea, that’s right”  The trick here is not to assert your own agenda.  It’s not your turn, just listen. Ask questions to help them get their story out in full, or to get their pain out there so you can bear witness DON’T CORRECT or explain yourself yet. Validate where you can do so authentically – try to find even 1% of what they are saying where you can join the person talking.  It does NOT mean you agree with them.  This is ninja warrior stuff, it’s not easy and rookies get this WRONG. Comfort, soothe them.  Not just once.  Not angrily, TAKE THEM IN, bear witness and let them feel you with them.  Do this UNTIL you feel them release and soften.  Again, rookies stop short and then don’t get it when the listening doesn’t help. CAVA — Clarify, ask question, validate where you feel it true and if appropriate, apologize LUV –  Listen, Understand and Validate where you can authentically For EVERYONE – we bet we can all also improve our self-regulation skills RAIN Tara Brach Review, Reflect, Rewire Self compassion and Kristen Neff – see previous episode here. Ann and Sue give several personal examples of what this looks like and support you in knowing your own truth, claiming it and living your best life possible. Research/links on challenging traits  Voicing the Victims of Narcissistic Partners: A Qualitative Analysis of Responses to Narcissistic Injury and Self-Esteem Regulation Volume: 9 issue: 2, Article first published online: April 28, 2019; Issue published: April 1, 2019 Ava Valashjardi1, Kathy Charles1 1Edinburgh Napier University, UK This article is distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 License (http://www.creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/) which permits any use, reproduction and distribution of the work without further permission provided the original work is attributed as specified on the SAGE and Open Access pages (https://us.sagepub.com/en-us/nam/open-access-at-sage). Empathy and self-boundaries Judith Jordan PhD  PDF .entryAuthor" data-author-container-selector=".NLM_contrib-group"> “Can narcissists be moved to show empathy?” 2014  Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Hatfield, E., Bensman, L., Thornton, P. D., & Rapson, R. (2014). New perspectives on emotional contagion: A review of classic and recent research on facial mimicry and contagion. Interpersonal: An International Journal of Personal Relations, 8, 159-179.   Resources – We packed these shownotes today with resources just for you!! Covert narcissism scale  Don’t believe online tests in general, but for fun you can see how you score on covert narcisissm. Psychcentral has personality quizzes – some are validated scales adapted for the internet some are more for fun, but none provide actual diagnosis for sure.  However, you may be interested in exploring these, if so enjoy! Get Me Out of Here by Rachel Reiland  This is an excellent book although it’s older, a first-hand account of the healing trajectory written by woman who identifies as borderline.  Fascinating and hopeful… recommended read esp for those doing deep work in therapy The Borderline Personality Disorder Workbook – self-help workbook by Daniel J Fox PhD Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder: How to Keep Out-of-Control Emotions from Destroying Your Relationship Shari Y Manning PhD Borderline Personality Disorder: The hidden faces of BPD that you need to spot. How to manage out of control emotions before they destroy your relationship “How to make the narcissist in your life a little nicer” The Atlantic “How to manage a narcissist” Harvard Business Review – Focuses on workplace highly applicable to all The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists: Coping with the One-Way Relationship in Work, Love, and Family Being Raised by Difficult Parents: Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents Linday Gibson PhD Will I Ever Be Good Enough?: Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers  Karle McBride PhD Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents “How being raised by a narcissist damages your life and self-esteem ” Forbes Magazine,  Kathy Caprino Resources from malignant narcisissism episode: Friends – we know most of you aren’t in this situation but if you are we want to be a resource.  We can’t say if you should or shouldn’t leave – that’s a highly personal and seriously safety-dependent question.  However we can say that we believe you, you aren’t alone, and there is support once you get ready for that. United States:  Click the image to the left for help! Not in the US, no problem:  International lines for domestic violence help click here  Many areas have local resources so look for those as well.     Psychopath Free (Expanded Edition): Recovering from Emotionally Abusive Relationships With Narcissists, Sociopaths, and Other Toxic People Jackson Macenzi Grindell et al Gaslighting: Recognize the Narcissist, Learn How to Spot Emotional Abuse, Protect Yourself and Heal From Malignant Narcissism (NPD) Aubrey Scrivelor Becoming the Narcissist’s Nightmare: How to Devalue and Discard the Narcissist While Supplying Yourself Shahida  Abrabi Traumatic Narcissism Daniel Shaw “Don’t You Know Who I Am?”: How to Stay Sane in an Era of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Incivility Ramani Durvasula POWER: Surviving and Thriving After Narcissistic Abuse: A Collection of Essays on Malignant Narcissism and Recovery from Emotional Abuse Shahida Arabi  Healing from Hidden Abuse: A Journey Through the Stages of Recovery from Psychological Abuse Shannon Thomas LCSW Attachment Disturbances in Adults Comprehensive Treatment & Repair(2016) Dan Brown and David Elliott (This is Sue’s favorite textbook on attachment currently)   OK friends if you have found the bottom of these show notes then you are our people.  Find us on Facebook @austinshrinks and from there, join our free private discussion community. If that is not enough, consider purchasing our signature (4 hour!!) course and use “ourclan” to get a discount on enrollment.  It’s Not Me It’s My Amygdala Advanced Course Connecting the Science of the Mind to the Amygdala  Finally, we invite you to join our patron Neuronerd community for some occasional bling and behind the scenes stuff, as well as helping to keep us Ad-Free!!! We are at almost 200 active and engaged patrons – help us get over the hump to 200, will ya? Without this super smart and active community we could not produce the way we do, could not get the science out to the world who would otherwise not even know it’s out there and most importantly to some — we would have to be running ads. (shriek!)  I am so bugged by the aggressive advertising on You Tube and many podcasts… we understand you gotta do it to sustain production but if we can sustain another way, then we are all for it!   We have a few straggler platforms where you may run into an ad, but once we get our patron community more robust we will be able to eliminate them all. Thanks for stopping by – we really appreciate you and hope this show provides even a tiny inspiration. xo

Holding Your Own with Challenging Personalities – staying (or becoming) secure in relationship with those with the most severe sort of personality structure – malignant narcissism. Session 5 – Staying safe with those with high psychopathology or malignant narcissism Accusations are their confessions. In this episode learn why we elect, promote, excuse and love those with malignant narcissism and its tendencies. Sort out the other forms of self-involvement, psychopathology and anti-social traits from this dangerous personality structure. Sue & Ann finish out their series on Holding Your Own with Challenging Personality Traits – this is session 5 of 6. Find more here www.therapistuncensored.com Five Points from Malignant Narcissism: We all have elements of self-centeredness and narcissistic traits. However, when it becomes more engrained into our personality structure, that is where the problems can arise. Narcissism, at its core, involves a sense of entitlement, exploitation and extreme self-focus that loses touch with one’s ability to see the needs of others. Grandiose and covert narcissist can become so self-involved that they can completely dismiss others in extremely painful ways as discussed in our previous episodes. However, they generally continue to hold relationships in value. Their primary difficulty lies in the tendency to idealize and devalue, which often leads to feeling misunderstood and mistreated. Thus, they can lack guilt because they often see themselves as right or the victim to injustice. However, when they do discover that they have wronged someone, they can feel significant guilt and shame. In malignant Narcissism, there is a general void of guilt and shame. Instead, there is a combination of antisocial traits, paranoia and vindictiveness that often leads to acting out in intentionally harmful ways. In Malignant narcissism the value placed on others is primarily based on utility – what others can do for them. The relational aspect is void. They do not have access to guilt of felt shame. This has been cut off. Malignant narcissist expects extremely loyalty at all costs. Loyalty to them, not to ideals.  If you are with me you are with me! If not, you are against me. This type of thinking leaves open rational for retaliation and extreme  vendictivness.  One way to know if our relationship, family, company or country is being run by a malignant narcissistic ruler, is to recognize that those under them are in a constant state of fear and threat of the disloyal “other”.   In many countries across the world, including the US, we have found ourselves and our nervous system in a constant state of threat and fear. This divides us. The “other” is a source to mistrusted to be fought against.  One sign of a malignant narcissist is the cool and coldness with which they can seek revenge in a calculating manner. If you are in a relationship and you see signs that he/she justifies revenge for mistreatment, that is something to take not of, especially if this revenge is sought with a sense of pleasure at the suffering of the other. If in a relationship with someone that has malignant narcissism, there is little hope of change. The focus must be for you to protect yourself, seek support and safely get out of the relationship. They may use their sense of loyalty and disloyalty as a weapon to keep you in. Remember, loyalty should never involve fear of retribution.  As we finish out this series, we know you  now have a good understanding of some of the challenging styles to engage in relationship and we’ve saved the toughest for last.  In this episode we sort out the difference between self-centeredness, narcissism, anti-social personality and malignant narcissism. This series builds on itself so we recommend that you listen to the previous sessions first before jumping into this episode, but if that isn’t your cup of tea, then by all means, the episode will be solid on it’s own.  To start at the beginning & hear the previous episodes in the series click here: Session 1 (Messy but secure), Session 2 (grandiose narcissism), Session 3 (covert narcissism) or Session 4 (borderline traits)  Power dynamics in this form of narcissism  Difference between anti-social characteristics, psychopathy and malignant narcissism. Differentials between the types of narcissism – keys regarding how to discriminate between covert grandiose and malignant. Hallmarks – vindictiveness malice & cruelty Warning to therapists – empathy can be a sign of weakness not connection Intense initial courting may be a foreshadowing of control. What does shame and guilt have to do with how challenging personality traits show up? Projected relationality as the bridge to staying trapped Knowing your truth The biology of threat and induction to passively follow a “strong” leader  Resources – Hey friends – we know most of you aren’t in this situation but if you are we want to be a resource.  We can’t say if you should or shouldn’t leave – that’s a highly personal and seriously safety-dependent question.  However we can say that we believe you, you aren’t alone, and there is support once you get ready for that. United States:  Click the image to the left for help! Not in the US, no problem:  International lines for domestic violence help click here  Many areas have local resources so look for those as well.     Psychopath Free (Expanded Edition): Recovering from Emotionally Abusive Relationships With Narcissists, Sociopaths, and Other Toxic People Jackson Macenzi Grindell et al Gaslighting: Recognize the Narcissist, Learn How to Spot Emotional Abuse, Protect Yourself and Heal From Malignant Narcissism (NPD) Aubrey Scrivelor Becoming the Narcissist’s Nightmare: How to Devalue and Discard the Narcissist While Supplying Yourself Shahida  Abrabi Traumatic Narcissism Daniel Shaw “Don’t You Know Who I Am?”: How to Stay Sane in an Era of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Incivility Ramani Durvasula POWER: Surviving and Thriving After Narcissistic Abuse: A Collection of Essays on Malignant Narcissism and Recovery from Emotional Abuse Shahida Arabi  Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents Linday Gibson PhD The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists: Coping with the One-Way Relationship in Work, Love, and Family Will I Ever Be Good Enough?: Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers  Karle McBride PhD Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents Healing from Hidden Abuse: A Journey Through the Stages of Recovery from Psychological Abuse Shannon Thomas LCSW Attachment Disturbances in Adults Comprehensive Treatment & Repair(2016) Dan Brown and David Elliott (This is Sue’s favorite textbook on attachment currently) OK friends if you have found the bottom of these show notes then you are our people.  Find us on Facebook @austinshrinks and from there, join for free our discussion community. If that is not enough, consider purchasing our signature (4 hour!!) course and use “ourclan” to get a discount on enrollment.  It’s Not Me It’s My Amygdala Advanced Course Connecting the Science of the Mind to the Amygdala  Finally, we invite you to join our patron Neuronerd community for some occasional bling and behind the scenes stuff, as well as helping to keep us Ad-Free!!!   Thanks for stopping by – we really appreciate you and hope this show provides even a tiny inspiration. xo